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On August 14 2012 12:03 Eraserhead wrote:
Blizzard was supposed to make Zerg and Protoss harder, not Terran easier
oh yeah, and warpgate doesn't belong in a rts-game
Totally agree with this sentiment. Well. perhaps not entirely. I think that the way that Toss is structured is completely lame and uninteresting. I can live with that, as each race having it's own unique feel is quite good, however making Terran more like Toss? WTF Blizzard?
I really enjoyed how the new Z units completely changed the TvZ and PvZ metagame in an awesome and interesting way (extreme mobility in lategame, hydras being good again, etc.) but to take Terran and to make them a sit back and A-Move race like toss? Bleh. Makes me sick.
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On August 14 2012 12:04 yeastiality wrote:Show nested quote +On August 14 2012 12:04 aksfjh wrote:
It was a showcase for the average player. Not sure why everybody was expecting something along the lines of Taeja vs Seed. because blizzard has the capability to do that, but they know that if they do it will make the horrid design even more obvious?
Or maybe you can't actually expect that to happen until pros have a lot more time to spend with the game. Give it time and let us see how it'll all turn out. It's fine to criticize really strange design decisions, but right now people are just rolling their face across their keyboard and adding  at the end of the post.
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On August 14 2012 11:58 Dalavita wrote:
Mothership core is absolutely retarded in the fact that you can get it really early and it turns into a siege tank that shoots as fast as a marauder. WHAT!?
Also, recall allowing Protoss to do all-ins and bail as soon as they get in trouble.
It's like Blizzard wants to screw over the earlygame.
Nothing needs to be said about the Tempest. Get rid of it and bring back the Carrier.
And it's nice to see that my predictions on how bad warhounds and battle hellions would be were pretty much spot on.
Also, lolacle.
The only thing that has any potential in HotS is the widow mine, and even that needs a couple of big changes.
Why is Blizzard doing this to us?
Ok at least learn about the stuff first. I'm not saying that I'm happy either, but the mothership core is one of the only good things to come out of HotS so far.
Just because it has the potential to recall/turn into a super cannon, doesn't mean that it can do them whenever it wants.
The cannon takes 75 energy from your Mothership Core, and you can only have one of those. While the cannon is strong, it only lasts 20 seconds, and then needs another 2:15 in order to build up that energy again. So why not just fake an attack and make them waste it, then move in after 20 secs are up? I actually think this is the most useless ability on the Mothership Core.
And obviously people are going to be all over the Recall. But that takes 150 energy! 4:30 game time to build that up. It's not just something tosses will use on any old strikeforce. That is a huge waste if you use it after only sniping a queen.
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For those complaining that there is no micro for this new units of Terran, we are in the same boat.....I absolutely do not want to see bio die out because of mech becoming viable...I am happy to see my fellow meching terrans enjoy the new viability of mech, but I want bio to be viable also. I do not want mech to kill bio.
Poll: Do you think with this mech viability, bio will die?No, bio will still be viable (45) 87% Yes...unfortunately bio will slowly fade away... (7) 13% 52 total votes Your vote: Do you think with this mech viability, bio will die? (Vote): No, bio will still be viable
(Vote): Yes...unfortunately bio will slowly fade away...
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On August 14 2012 12:08 seansye wrote:
Dustin Browder removes the Carrier because no one uses it, even though everyone still wants it in the game, but he keeps the colossus when every1 agrees it's the shittiest unit in the game :p
Because it's useful and necessary, unlike the carrier?
Not shitty; just bad design because of the a-move.
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On August 14 2012 12:08 seansye wrote:
Dustin Browder removes the Carrier because no one uses it, even though everyone still wants it in the game, but he keeps the colossus when every1 agrees it's the shittiest unit in the game :p
He did put in more rocks though!
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On August 14 2012 12:05 TheDougler wrote:Show nested quote +On August 14 2012 11:58 Catchafire2000 wrote:
PvP will still be the same. Any player trying to go for some fancy tempest tech will get 4 gated... Not even fucking close. First of all, 4gate has been dead for a long time now due to the awesome ramp vision nerf, and gets even more nerfed in a way in HOTS as you can't warp uphill. Furthermore, it's hard to say if tempest tech will be the big deal, but I can almost gaurantee that the purifier will cause WAY more expo builds. At least 2 base. We may still see colossus wars tho... hard to say. In anycase it's not even in beta yet.
The biggest nerf to 4Gate in HotS is the mothership core really. Purify will negates all 1 base all ins against protoss no matter the race.
I like the protoss units but really dislike the terran units. It feels too 1A-ish. Well I like the mine, my problem is with warhounds and hellions.
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United States7483 Posts
On August 14 2012 12:09 mordk wrote:Show nested quote +On August 14 2012 12:08 Whitewing wrote:
I'm not sure what Protoss is supposed to do vs. Terran mech in HotS, and I'm not saying this as a balance whine, because obviously numbers can change easily.
But unit design just seems.... completely ridiculous. Terran now has a ridiculously powerful anti-light aoe unit in the battle hellion, that is super good at tanking damage and slaughtering zealots. The warhound is like a super buff anti-protoss marauder with more HP and more damage vs. mech. Those two units combined should be able to deal with anything toss has on the ground no problem.
I guess phoenix will get a lot more play TvP, since no mech unit on the ground attacks them and vikings are pretty good against them (or is the thor still in the game? If so, pheonix are useless vs. mech).
I'm just not sure what to do, it seems ridiculously hard to harass a terran army that is that much stronger than your own when they got a huge mobility buff... That protoss didn't even get colossus. If you look closely, battle hellions stack almost as hard as marines, the will melt to colossus.
Right, but will it be in time to prevent the zealots from melting? Maybe, I'm not confident. Colossi seem like an okay response, but I really don't like having them be a catch-all unit against both mech and bio, just seems like a horrible dynamic.
"Regardless of what terran does, make colossi."
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Alpha version of the game. OP shit bound to be there. Chill people, chill...
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On August 14 2012 12:08 seansye wrote:
Dustin Browder removes the Carrier because no one uses it, even though everyone still wants it in the game, but he keeps the colossus when every1 agrees it's the shittiest unit in the game :p
We should change the "Keep the Carrier" campaign to "Replace the Colossus" 
I just realized the other Battle Reports are from 2 months ago... I wonder if this TvP Battle Report was recorded then but only shown now? Hence none of the internal changes in the last few months were reflected in the video? I speculate that is case since the Widow Mine still borrows model+icon of other existing units.
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Mothership core singlehandly rapes bio viability. Good luck outpositioning P army with mass recall, and good luck getting lucky drops with purifier cannon.
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On August 14 2012 12:09 YumYumGranola wrote:Show nested quote +On August 14 2012 12:03 Eraserhead wrote:
Blizzard was supposed to make Zerg and Protoss harder, not Terran easier
oh yeah, and warpgate doesn't belong in a rts-game Totally agree with this sentiment. Well. perhaps not entirely. I think that the way that Toss is structured is completely lame and uninteresting. I can live with that, as each race having it's own unique feel is quite good, however making Terran more like Toss? WTF Blizzard? I really enjoyed how the new Z units completely changed the TvZ and PvZ metagame in an awesome and interesting way (extreme mobility in lategame, hydras being good again, etc.) but to take Terran and to make them a sit back and A-Move race like toss? Bleh. Makes me sick.
You didn't know? Terran Mech is an a-move strategy
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I hate how fake these are lol
"My good look at that terran macro!"
3000 minerals, 200 gas, 138 supply.
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United States7483 Posts
On August 14 2012 12:12 pOnarreT wrote:Show nested quote +On August 14 2012 12:09 YumYumGranola wrote:On August 14 2012 12:03 Eraserhead wrote:
Blizzard was supposed to make Zerg and Protoss harder, not Terran easier
oh yeah, and warpgate doesn't belong in a rts-game Totally agree with this sentiment. Well. perhaps not entirely. I think that the way that Toss is structured is completely lame and uninteresting. I can live with that, as each race having it's own unique feel is quite good, however making Terran more like Toss? WTF Blizzard? I really enjoyed how the new Z units completely changed the TvZ and PvZ metagame in an awesome and interesting way (extreme mobility in lategame, hydras being good again, etc.) but to take Terran and to make them a sit back and A-Move race like toss? Bleh. Makes me sick. You didn't know? Terran Mech is an a-move strategy
I wouldn't be too worried about terran mech being A-move. Obviously these weren't progamers we were seeing, and they don't have much experience playing the matchup out. Siege tanks will still be an integral part of the mech army, and as long as they are, A-moving will be a bad thing for the terran player to do. I'm more concerned about the general design of giving mech more mobility and raw power in the form of warhounds and battle hellions. Raw power was never what mech needed, it just needed a way to lock down space better (which widow mines accomplish) so that you are less vulnerable to harass. The increase in mobility will make mech way less interesting, because combining your mechanical army with good building usage becomes a lot less important. Extensive use of missile turrets goes out the window due to being able to get back faster for drops, using widow mines to catch drops, and even having the tempest make turrets pointless. Planetary fortresses to hold locations and to cut off attack paths becomes less useful and interesting.
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United Kingdom14464 Posts
The only thing I'm ready to admit is terrible is the warhound.
And by terrible I'd argue that right now its the worst unit Blizzard has designed.
It looks terrible. I don't know anyone who likes the looks. And it also seems to be unmicroable, heck it seems like a mech version of a marauder with stim.
Not only that, but it'll be entirely useless against Zerg, just because its designed and balanced around doing bonus against massive.
AND, it seems it'll make tanks redundant vs Toss, as you could just mech with battlehellion warhound.
Terrible, terrible terrible.
On the other hand, I like everything else.
The battle hellion seems needed vs chargelots, and it seems like it'll do okay vs Immortals, which is really enough.
It also forces the player to make choices about mobility (which mech will still lack) or staying power, on the fly.
The widow mine makes mech openings a whole lot safer it seems, its uses later remain to be seen. However, its the kind of unit where I'm sure people will find uses for it, so for now it passes judgement, at least for me.
I seriously don't get the hate for the Tempest. The criticisms that is just "bad" are just mindless and pointless. Thats a balance thing, numbers will be adjusted.
People should be discussing design, and imo its pretty interesting. Its not a straight up replacement for the Carrier. I think its actually more interesting, at least compared to the SC2 carrier.
In the BR, it became a pretty potent late game harassment tool, able to one shot workers, snipe off expansions, generally be a nuisance.
However, it won't be a good deathball, clump tastic unit (which is what a lot of people's criticisms of WoL is), because doing that would be pointless. Its not incredible strong for its supply/cost, so massing it up exclusively would be suicide, they could just go kill you. And with such long range, keeping them close together would be pointless, far better to have the wide apart, covering each other, but not so that if units get under one of them, they all die.
Isn't that a good thing? A useful lategame unit, but one in which the sole objective isn't to mass up and go fucking kill them, or to just turtle on them, because it both cases it would be useless.
Aren't all the above at the very least neutral? I'm not understanding the hate, this is was low level game on a terrible map with relatively untested units. Of course its not gonna be as good as Flash vs Jaedong, or something.
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omg that eternal winter map looks so horrific!
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On August 14 2012 12:12 pOnarreT wrote:Show nested quote +On August 14 2012 12:09 YumYumGranola wrote:On August 14 2012 12:03 Eraserhead wrote:
Blizzard was supposed to make Zerg and Protoss harder, not Terran easier
oh yeah, and warpgate doesn't belong in a rts-game Totally agree with this sentiment. Well. perhaps not entirely. I think that the way that Toss is structured is completely lame and uninteresting. I can live with that, as each race having it's own unique feel is quite good, however making Terran more like Toss? WTF Blizzard? I really enjoyed how the new Z units completely changed the TvZ and PvZ metagame in an awesome and interesting way (extreme mobility in lategame, hydras being good again, etc.) but to take Terran and to make them a sit back and A-Move race like toss? Bleh. Makes me sick. You didn't know? Terran Mech is an a-move strategy
If you're not being sarcastic: Right now mech isn't a-move, mostly because it relies on tanks, which need to be sieged in the right position. With the advent of the Warhound however, tanks become less necessary, and mech becomes, well, not totally a-movable, but close enough.
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On August 14 2012 12:09 mordk wrote:Show nested quote +On August 14 2012 12:08 Whitewing wrote:
I'm not sure what Protoss is supposed to do vs. Terran mech in HotS, and I'm not saying this as a balance whine, because obviously numbers can change easily.
But unit design just seems.... completely ridiculous. Terran now has a ridiculously powerful anti-light aoe unit in the battle hellion, that is super good at tanking damage and slaughtering zealots. The warhound is like a super buff anti-protoss marauder with more HP and more damage vs. mech. Those two units combined should be able to deal with anything toss has on the ground no problem.
I guess phoenix will get a lot more play TvP, since no mech unit on the ground attacks them and vikings are pretty good against them (or is the thor still in the game? If so, pheonix are useless vs. mech).
I'm just not sure what to do, it seems ridiculously hard to harass a terran army that is that much stronger than your own when they got a huge mobility buff... That protoss didn't even get colossus. If you look closely, battle hellions stack almost as hard as marines, the will melt to colossus.
This is actually my expectation for battle hellions in HOTS. They will just die in seconds to Colossus splash and the zelaots will still rape Terran as they do now.
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Stop beating on day9, if you listen closely he is critical of the game. He does it with very subtle comments and sarcasm. If he came out and said "22 range, that is just stupid and bad for the game" he wouldn't get to do these BR's anymore, and would probably have a tough time getting future work with blizzard or using them as a reference. There is still a 3rd expansion after this to think about.
Over all, the players were really bad, the new units were not very exciting, the new toss abilities look as ridiculously op as warp gate did, when it only took a minute to research (i play toss btw) and we all know how bad toss got beat with the nerf bat because of warp gate and FF in the early days. The mothership core is stupid op for defense and offense (recall, recharge, tank range 60 dmg) the new harass unit is shit, I think anyone would rather use prism with chargelots (because you stop mining for about the same amount of time, kill some workers and the tech path is easier, it also doesn't risk any gas units, and you can sometimes warp in more zealots and kill a hatch) The tempest seems boring, it has its utility though, so I can live with that.
But really, I don't see any way for protoss to deal with BL infestor. Isn't vortex toilet gone in HOTS? You can recall, but then you'll just be fighting the same fight at your doorstep 10 seconds later. On top of all the new zerg abilities, they can abduct and ware down your colossus count, as well as the new dark swarm ability. It looks like zerg will be able to fungal and smash you with corrputors, BL, roach, and deny any blink forward sniping with dark swarm. Then just turn all the remaining corruptors into BL's once the tempests are gone. Or do an even earlier Infestor/swarm host/roach push, and basically have the same power BL infestor does now. You wont be able to get close to the swarm hosts in order to kill them and every fungal that lands is a death sentence to a chunk of your army. The tempest would possibly help with this.
It is of course impossible to know how things will play out or be balanced. Especially since it looks like now protoss gets ezpz expansions like terran or zerg (for different reasons)
I think the game could be a lot of fun, but it just seems like to much easy mode, a move, terrible terrible damage, hard countering, super easy thoughtless safe expands, to be much of a serious RTS Esport.
I blame Browder for much of the bad design, he is in charge of this dept. and in many interviews both recently and going all the way back to release, his comments demonstrate his poor understanding of the game, balance, and esports. I wouldn't even insult diamond players by saying he has their level of understanding, because it's clearly below that.
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EPT
