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On August 06 2012 18:19 dynwar7 wrote:
I just finished reading the whole article.
Wow, such an interesting story. I feel so sorry for MKP, he had a tough childhood.
Moving story also
It was a moving story indeed, but not dissimilar to other progamer stories. The one I remember the most is the story that NatGeo did on Xellos and how his mom disapproved of him playing games and she eventually came to accept him for what he is.
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On August 06 2012 13:38 Rad wrote:
Also, terrible terrible article, and then the author tries to act like he wants to support the scene in the comments. Terrible.
I think it makes a lot of sense to support the scene by putting things into perspective and pointing out issues. As someone who likes games and e-sports, when I read the comments here, I feel the total failure/refusal of many to acknowledge that e-sports isn't necessarily the pure paradise come true and spending all day in front of a computer not necessarily the true fulfilment of human destiny isn't a strength of the community but a weakness. A community deluding itself about reality isn't a strong one and isn't viable in the long run.
There simply are two sides to the story. Getting enraged about this notion and insisting that there is only one, yours, doesn't help your cause. If gaming and e-sports are to thrive, the issues of them interfering with health and social life need to be dealt with, not denied.
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On August 06 2012 18:42 Kyrillion wrote:Show nested quote +I have an easy question, which one would you choose?
Your son/daughter practices a sport 10 hours per day.
Your son/daughter studies on his/her classes 10 hours per day.
Your son/daughter plays videogames 10 hours per day.
Although the first 2 options are not that pleasant either, most of the people will pick 1st or 2nd option, only some video game addicts will go for 3rd. Not a very hard question indeed. In the first option, it all depends on the sport but the second one is clearly the worst. Unless we're talking about University, it's fairly astonishing and sad that one could study for 10 hours a day.
The second is clearly the worst? I think most parents would disagree. You find it sad that someone works hard for getting good grates in school /university ? Really?
Working hard to reach your goals should always be admired, no matter what the goals are. Be it Starcraft, University or a sport.
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On August 06 2012 17:47 FrosTByTe11 wrote:
I think for those saying that video games have nothing to contribute to life is quite false because like anything you do in life, you get something out of it. For example, in Day9's #100 daily, he talked a lot about the things he learned in life relative to his career playing Starcraft. If there is anything that separates a gaming addict and a competitive sports player, I think that video pretty much explain a lot about the differences between the two.
Sure, Day[9] has quite some talent at telling stories, but you totally neglect to mention what he also has due to his "Starcraft career": Carpal Tunnel syndrome. Its not fun to have pains in your wrists for the rest of your life just because you didnt care about a correct sitting position (or you didnt have the right chair&table anyways) in your early teens. Just look at all those progamers and carpal tunnel or similar problems are rather widespread. Having such an injury will not make any job involving computers any easier ...
Even though Day[9] might have a bright future and sufficient financial security, that isnt guaranteed for 99% of the progamers. Casters can do their jobs much longer than progamers and there arent as many needed for a tournament anyways. So the gist of it is:
There is no transition from progamer to any other job ... and this makes any concern about potentially wasting the most important time of your life on something trivial (because you dont produce anything while playing computer games) instead of learning skills which will sustain you for the rest of your life. No progamer will make enough money to be able to sustain himself for 40-50 more years and for that time you need a plan!
So while Day[9]'s stories might be entertaining they ARE NOT REPRESENTATIVE! Just remember this in five years and look at what progamers - especially those B-teamers and not-so-successful ones - are doing as a job. Skills learned as a progamer will not help you in any other job ... contrary to regular sports or studying ... and I hope people will stop these useless comparisons.
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There is no transition from progamer to any other job ... and this makes any concern about potentially wasting the most important time of your life on something trivial (because you dont produce anything while playing computer games) instead of learning skills which will sustain you for the rest of your life. No progamer will make enough money to be able to sustain himself for 40-50 more years and for that time you need a plan! Coaching, off the top of my head. You see pro gamers transition to coaching for various games a lot in my memory.
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On August 06 2012 18:42 Kyrillion wrote:Show nested quote +I have an easy question, which one would you choose?
Your son/daughter practices a sport 10 hours per day.
Your son/daughter studies on his/her classes 10 hours per day.
Your son/daughter plays videogames 10 hours per day.
Although the first 2 options are not that pleasant either, most of the people will pick 1st or 2nd option, only some video game addicts will go for 3rd. Not a very hard question indeed. In the first option, it all depends on the sport but the second one is clearly the worst. Unless we're talking about University, it's fairly astonishing and sad that one could study for 10 hours a day. Show nested quote +Thank god Nony wasn't playing MKP. The reporters head would fucking explode trying to find a way to insult that handsome man. Makes you wonder why they chose to show the beauteous Tasteless while introducing him as an ex-progamer. Which debatable, but that's what the viewer will think anyway.
It is even more sad one could play some game for 10 hours a day, I guess you are playing around 10 hours as well
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I have an easy question, which one would you choose?
Your son/daughter practices a sport 10 hours per day.
Your son/daughter studies on his/her classes 10 hours per day.
Your son/daughter plays videogames 10 hours per day.
Although the first 2 options are not that pleasant either, most of the people will pick 1st or 2nd option, only some video game addicts will go for 3rd.
Wouldn't really want to my kid to do any of those things for 10 hours/day. Like all things you have to take it in moderation. The thing with being a pro playing StarCraft is that you combine work with fun which makes it kinda okay if it really makes you as much money as a normal job would do. I've seen some posts about pro players not having fun while playing the game, but just listen to Real Talk with Naniwa and you'll understand that it's not true.
If you're not making money (not being pro at a high enough level) then yes, it's probably not a good idea to play for 10 hours/day. The paradox is, of course, to become pro enough 99% of players need to put those hours into the game.
I think the article was really terrible. I don't watch CNN much so I had no idea how unprofessional they were, but now I do. Gaming as much as I've done during my life has really helped me develop a lot of skills and discover talents I didn't know I had, a lot of them used while going through uni to get my Masters in electrical engineering and everyday life.
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On August 06 2012 18:55 monkybone wrote:
Don't blame the journalist though, his job is creating discussion and grabbing attention. He has definitely succeeded in that. He knows what nerve to hit.
That's quite emphatically NOT the job of a journalist. Calling that two-bit hack a "journalist" is pissing on the grave of that once proud profession.
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its all about perspective
id say studying is addiction too  take ur pick.
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On August 06 2012 19:06 Fencar wrote:Show nested quote +There is no transition from progamer to any other job ... and this makes any concern about potentially wasting the most important time of your life on something trivial (because you dont produce anything while playing computer games) instead of learning skills which will sustain you for the rest of your life. No progamer will make enough money to be able to sustain himself for 40-50 more years and for that time you need a plan! Coaching, off the top of my head. You see pro gamers transition to coaching for various games a lot in my memory.
Coaching and casting jobs are available IN A VERY VERY VERY LIMITED NUMBER. Thus you can NOT get a coaching/casting job for all progamers when their careers are over. Coaches and casters also keep their jobs for more years than a progamer is fit enough to be a progamer.
You also need additional knowledge / talents as a coach / caster which only very few progamers will have.
Its not the same for regular sports or any form of education.
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On August 06 2012 19:06 Fencar wrote:Show nested quote +There is no transition from progamer to any other job ... and this makes any concern about potentially wasting the most important time of your life on something trivial (because you dont produce anything while playing computer games) instead of learning skills which will sustain you for the rest of your life. No progamer will make enough money to be able to sustain himself for 40-50 more years and for that time you need a plan! Coaching, off the top of my head. You see pro gamers transition to coaching for various games a lot in my memory.
You don't see it "a lot" at all. While most coaches and team managers (ones doing things on the team side) are ex-progamers, there simply isn't enough of these jobs available in the first place. And problem with them is that coaching/management jobs also depend on a the same shaky, unreliable branch of entertainment industry.
The more I see of the SC2 scene (and some other games), the more I believe that the only sustainable and reasonable way to be involved in progaming is to play part-time while you're at school or working, then if you're good enough take a year off to try to compete at the highest level and make some money, and if you become one of the absolute top players, take another year off, two at most, then promptly return to school/university/work.
There is a lot of sides to this topic that need to be considered and discussed. Gaming communities (and more importantly, gaming media) would be taken a lot more seriously if they didn't go nuts every time gaming addiction and problems with gaming careers and industry are mentioned in the mainstream media.
The way we react to these topics just feeds into every single stereotype that exists about gamers in general to the point where it isn't really a stereotype in the negative sense of the term, but an accurate description of the gaming culture in general.
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This article gave me cancer.
Someone hit the nail on the head earlier: the general tone of the article is just way too demeaning to be informative. This is really a shame people feel compelled to write on issue they don't even understand :/.
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I think that they would have to blow it up in the sense to obtain viewers. Of course the comparison between a progamer and a guy who is addicted to maplestory are totally different. But it was to show that in Korea there are people who play games on hours weather it be for a living or a addiction.
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On August 06 2012 08:44 FairForever wrote:Show nested quote +On August 06 2012 08:11 Bippzy wrote:
I think the article has much to go in storyline. Saying marineking won in 8 minutes should not be "he won in just 8 minutes" it should be more like "he executed a well disguised rush and caught his opponent off guard.
Also, go seemed like an indicative sign of addiction, but its actually BFD in the gamig community. Plus " he plays not because he wants to, but has to." seems a little too over the top. Is marinekings past weighing on him at wcg? Probably not as much as this article makes it out to be:
This article is disliked in my mind because it makes a "philosophical" question about gaming and then discusses it using MKP and statistics and government actions..it all paints the wrong picture What are you talking about? Rush? People who don't play video games don't know what a rush is. Nor do they understand how you disguise something. I thought the article was extremely well-written - it brought both sides of the argument, the good and bad of gaming. I think people here focus way too much on the addiction side, which is actually, sadly, an issue (because some people are addicted to gaming - this is not necessarily good). Yes there are other non-gaming examples of bad addictions (eg. athletics) but that's not the point of this article.
The article was not well-written. There are countless problems with it, and not simply because it "disses" esports.
1: It demonstrates poor knowledge of its subject content.
The description of Terran as humanlike aliens instead of humans (for goodness sake, even the Wikipedia entry for SC races points out that the Terrans are humans exiled for earth. The description of Protoss probes as termites (when the bug-reference confuses Protoss for Zerg; again, see basic wikipedia entry where even the most uninformed can understand that Zerg is the insectoid race, not Protoss). We don't expect these people to give fully informed LR of each game, but at least understand the basic structure of it...
2: Problems with narrative construction.
There's no clear timeline or context. The author jumps from 15 year old MKP to contemporary MKP within the same paragraph.
I can see what the author is trying to do, going with the redemption story, but too much of the article frames MKP as traversing both ends of the spectrum, but that is a wholly incorrect narrative. MKP really represents only the positive side of the story, not the negative, and the author therefore has to manipulate and twist his narrative to fit his ends, which in this case, means that he distorts the narrative to portray MKP as an addict, which leads to issue #3.
Furthermore, the positive aspects of his subject are poorly represented. The article very quickly throws in the mention of fans twice very briefly (once with the fan offering a gift, the other MKP's tweet). No mention is made of the culture which inspired MKP to pursue pro-gaming, or the fanbase which is part of the addendum. This is an important fact to recognize because the distinction between addiction and legitimacy is often drawn in the lens of "anti-social" or social tendencies, and clearly, the interactive nature of esports as a cultural occurrence is reflective of the positive, and not the negative.
3: The author excessively and repeatedly goes overboard with his insertion of personal interpretation, instead of objective fact.
Of course, this is worsened by a clear bias one side,negatively portraying esports. Whether intentional or not, as it may simply be a social attitude subconsciously engrained, it still is poor journalistic quality. This one is the most blatant problem with the article, and the examples are numerous.
A. the narrative distortion of #2 is clearly the author's intent when his general view is stated near the beginning of the article with these lines:
"It's a place that's home to the world's finest "e-sports athletes," as they're called here without irony. It's also a hub for gaming addiction -- a place where deaths are attributed to games and the government funds treatment centers.
MarineKing knows those facts all too well. He's been caught in a lifelong struggle between the dark and the light sides of gaming."
In other words, insinuating that MKP has been struggling with gaming addiction (struggling with the dark side,) when really, the story is him falsely being considered a gaming addict. While the definition of addiction is its own debate, we will use the author's own words to clear the issue, as he ends with the expert concluding that pro-gamers (ie MKP) are not addicts.
B. the dismissive attitude of games as fiction: "He drifted further into the game and, as his parents came to see it, out of the physical world. It was all fiction, of course, but it seemed real to him. And soon MarineKing started to like this fantasy world better than the real one. One night, in his journal, he scribbled a secret: "I want to grow up to be a pro gamer."" Considering pro-gaming an "escape" into fantasy over reality is a stereotypical view of gaming, but a false interpretation of pro-gaming; in fact, pro-gaming would be the merging of the two, connecting that "fiction" to the real world.
C. Constant descriptions of MKP in terms of an addict.
"Then he quickly moved on to another round of "StarCraft" -- not because of the competition, really.
He just wanted -- or needed -- to keep playing." Again, huge authorial liberties in assuming that MKP didn't play Starcraft at WCG because of the competition (...really? does this guy even know anyone who plays SC?), and the not too subtle addendum of "need" instead of "want" as the drive behind his play.
D. The description of Darkforce. Self-explanatory.
E. The description of MKP's go-spamming, clear framing in terms of the jittery/trembling junkie (when really, all he's doing is pressing three keys over and over, which really takes no effort at all). While it would be fine to mention it as part of the picture being drawn, the author mentions it multiple times, clearly emphasizing this supposedly erratic nature of MKP. As an interesting side note, Olympic athletes also hate long waits and are itching to get into competition, I recall specifically in one of the women's finals where a start sound malfunction elicited a false start [that the swimmer was not DQ'd for since it was a malfunction], in which the commentator explicitly stated that they hated the wait and just wanted to get in, since the wait would disrupt them as they were ready at that very moment.
That said, I do think a lot of the vitriol directed towards this article comes not just from the article, but the narrative itself and the attitude displayed by MKP's parents. Having just watched Dead Poet Society for the first time a week ago, it certainly is an infuriating thing to picture when it comes to obstructing young dreams, especially when those dreams are particular to this game that we all enjoy.
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On August 06 2012 19:29 Rabiator wrote:Show nested quote +On August 06 2012 19:06 Fencar wrote:There is no transition from progamer to any other job ... and this makes any concern about potentially wasting the most important time of your life on something trivial (because you dont produce anything while playing computer games) instead of learning skills which will sustain you for the rest of your life. No progamer will make enough money to be able to sustain himself for 40-50 more years and for that time you need a plan! Coaching, off the top of my head. You see pro gamers transition to coaching for various games a lot in my memory. Coaching and casting jobs are available IN A VERY VERY VERY LIMITED NUMBER. Thus you can NOT get a coaching/casting job for all progamers when their careers are over. Coaches and casters also keep their jobs for more years than a progamer is fit enough to be a progamer. You also need additional knowledge / talents as a coach / caster which only very few progamers will have. Its not the same for regular sports or any form of education.
What the hell? Did you really say there isn't a VERY VERY VERY limited number of coaching and casting positions in regular sports?
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On August 06 2012 19:22 Rioo wrote:Show nested quote +
I have an easy question, which one would you choose?
Your son/daughter practices a sport 10 hours per day.
Your son/daughter studies on his/her classes 10 hours per day.
Your son/daughter plays videogames 10 hours per day.
Although the first 2 options are not that pleasant either, most of the people will pick 1st or 2nd option, only some video game addicts will go for 3rd.
Wouldn't really want to my kid to do any of those things for 10 hours/day. Like all things you have to take it in moderation. The thing with being a pro playing StarCraft is that you combine work with fun which makes it kinda okay if it really makes you as much money as a normal job would do. I've seen some posts about pro players not having fun while playing the game, but just listen to Real Talk with Naniwa and you'll understand that it's not true. If you're not making money (not being pro at a high enough level) then yes, it's probably not a good idea to play for 10 hours/day. The paradox is, of course, to become pro enough 99% of players need to put those hours into the game.
So if Naniwa says that he plays for fun it is going to be true all the time he plays and practices and is going to be true for all progamers? I highly doubt that.
I would say that it is a requirement for 100% of progamers to practice regularly and those 10 hours are just an arbitrary number. That time includes watching other players and studying their new tactics and thinking about it, so the 10 hours arent that bad in the end. The bad part is that such exclusivity of thought really limits your "mental growth" in other areas since its not possible to do both studying and playing Starcraft professionally. Those who do it are only somewhat successful in Starcraft and we dont really know how much their studies suffer from doing that "halfheartedly".
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On August 06 2012 19:37 yeint wrote:Show nested quote +On August 06 2012 19:29 Rabiator wrote:On August 06 2012 19:06 Fencar wrote:There is no transition from progamer to any other job ... and this makes any concern about potentially wasting the most important time of your life on something trivial (because you dont produce anything while playing computer games) instead of learning skills which will sustain you for the rest of your life. No progamer will make enough money to be able to sustain himself for 40-50 more years and for that time you need a plan! Coaching, off the top of my head. You see pro gamers transition to coaching for various games a lot in my memory. Coaching and casting jobs are available IN A VERY VERY VERY LIMITED NUMBER. Thus you can NOT get a coaching/casting job for all progamers when their careers are over. Coaches and casters also keep their jobs for more years than a progamer is fit enough to be a progamer. You also need additional knowledge / talents as a coach / caster which only very few progamers will have. Its not the same for regular sports or any form of education. What the hell? Did you really say there isn't a VERY VERY VERY limited number of coaching and casting positions in regular sports?
No I didnt ... those jobs are limited for ESPORTS ... since there arent any local teams, national championships and school training groups which need Starcraft coaches.
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On August 06 2012 19:40 Rabiator wrote:Show nested quote +On August 06 2012 19:37 yeint wrote:On August 06 2012 19:29 Rabiator wrote:On August 06 2012 19:06 Fencar wrote:There is no transition from progamer to any other job ... and this makes any concern about potentially wasting the most important time of your life on something trivial (because you dont produce anything while playing computer games) instead of learning skills which will sustain you for the rest of your life. No progamer will make enough money to be able to sustain himself for 40-50 more years and for that time you need a plan! Coaching, off the top of my head. You see pro gamers transition to coaching for various games a lot in my memory. Coaching and casting jobs are available IN A VERY VERY VERY LIMITED NUMBER. Thus you can NOT get a coaching/casting job for all progamers when their careers are over. Coaches and casters also keep their jobs for more years than a progamer is fit enough to be a progamer. You also need additional knowledge / talents as a coach / caster which only very few progamers will have. Its not the same for regular sports or any form of education. What the hell? Did you really say there isn't a VERY VERY VERY limited number of coaching and casting positions in regular sports? No I didnt ... those jobs are limited for ESPORTS ... since there arent any local teams, national championships and school training groups which need Starcraft coaches.
And there are far fewer people who even attempt to go pro.
Logically, there are just as many coaching/casting positions in SC2 as there are in, say, soccer. Relatively speaking, because the amount of soccer players is astronomically higher.
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On August 06 2012 18:55 Rabiator wrote:Show nested quote +On August 06 2012 17:47 FrosTByTe11 wrote:
I think for those saying that video games have nothing to contribute to life is quite false because like anything you do in life, you get something out of it. For example, in Day9's #100 daily, he talked a lot about the things he learned in life relative to his career playing Starcraft. If there is anything that separates a gaming addict and a competitive sports player, I think that video pretty much explain a lot about the differences between the two. There is no transition from progamer to any other job... Skills learned as a progamer will not help you in any other job ... contrary to regular sports or studying ... and I hope people will stop these useless comparisons.
...There is also no transition from professional athlete to any other job. You might say: "coach! commentator! they've earned enough to not need another job!" - but the exact same could apply to gaming, just on a smaller scale because it simply has a smaller scene. That said, what about the smaller sports, that don't get as much attention? Should those athletes also just give up and go?
Now, I'm not saying "yeah everyone, go and drop out of school and try to become pros." The bottom line is that the great majority of these people, esports or regular sports, are doing something they love, doing it because they love to compete, and doing it because there also happens to be some incentives on the side. And that is the similarity that distinguishes between addiction and genuine positive pursuit, not the amount of money that you get paid.
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EPT
