EPTIf you want to be taken seriously, learn how to present your points and arguments without sounding like you're whining about how shitty your race is.
edit: Not to mention, again, its not even beta. lol.
Ghost Design Change Concern for HOTS - Page 5
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Leyra
United States1222 Posts
If you want to be taken seriously, learn how to present your points and arguments without sounding like you're whining about how shitty your race is. edit: Not to mention, again, its not even beta. lol. | ||
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Coolness53
United States668 Posts
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ThirdDegree
United States329 Posts
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Ritos753
United States26 Posts
Avilo is not whining he is just bringing attetion to the fact that it is a bad design decision for Blizzard to make the ghost cloak a timed effect. You guys are prejudging avilo just because he is avilo. Yes he has whined a bit in the past but looking on this post by itself i seen no reason for you guys to be clamoring "whinner" "QQ b4 teh beta" and so on this is not /r/starcraft. On July 28 2012 05:39 ThirdDegree wrote: A concern you raise seems to be that you have to send your ghosts uncloaked across the map in order to nuke. What about cloaking and moving to a position, waiting the cooldown, and then nuking? It just requires some babysitting. Being able to just cloak and nuke at will with no control required is a pretty crappy design choice in itself. A high level zerg paying any attention at all will spot the ghost on his creep in the time you wait for the cooldwon to reset giving him more than enough time to neutralize the ghost or evacute his drones making you waste a nuke. | ||
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GreggSauce
United States566 Posts
 hope it doesn't get changed, seems like a crutch mechanic to begin with | ||
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avilo
United States4100 Posts
On July 28 2012 05:38 Leyra wrote: To all the people saying Avilo is doing a great job of bringing this up to the community, you're ignoring the WAY he brings it up, lol. If he posted "Hey guys, I found this, what do you guys think?" it would be one thing, but he posts "omg guys, terran sucks so bad right now and we're getting fucking NERFED AGAIN! David Kim hates terran!11!11!!" If you want to be taken seriously, learn how to present your points and arguments without sounding like you're whining about how shitty your race is. edit: Not to mention, again, its not even beta. lol. Really? Where did I say that? Exactly, I didn't. Stay on topic of discussion thanks :D! | ||
Falling
Canada11371 Posts
On July 28 2012 05:24 bgx wrote: It reminds me of general sc2 micro/battle design, "If you gonna commit, there is no way out". You clicked cloak, you have to make this unit useful in 30 sec, the end. Yeah the fact that it puts the player in the position of wanting to click, but they have to wait around before they can control it is not bad. Quite literally "fighting against the game interface." Ghost energy management is something every Terran needs to figure out, but when the Ghost cloaks and uncloaks should be in the hands of the player. It reminds of (if I can pull out my favourite punching bag) SupCom2's air units that have massive turn arcs where you just have to wait around for the unit to do it's thing before you can properly control it. It's the exact opposite direction that SC2 unit design needs to go. | ||
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TirramirooO
Portugal102 Posts
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Xiphos
Canada7507 Posts
On July 28 2012 05:34 Dagan159 wrote: I would be happy to hear what exaclty Avilo's contributions are. At the moment to me avilo is the champion of the terran whine, which is detrimental to the community. He is bringing attention to potential missteps by Blizzard while you are cruising with no such post of equal magnitude. At the moment to me, you are shitting down on someone else's concern w/o bringing more to the discussion. I think you should see things from a bigger perspective. | ||
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Plansix
United States60190 Posts
On July 28 2012 05:25 avilo wrote: thanks for changing title, hopefully gets better discussion out of this thread -_-! It gives less control to the user, which is bad. Every good player can manage their cloak energy properly, to the point that when you do send out ghosts to nuke you literally pick the ones that already have 100 energy pooled up. There is no risk of "running over" it's up to the player to manage their units. The proposed change is a bad change in the ways i've analyzed, and in the terms you are speaking of it's just a simple dumbing down of the game. I don’t agree and I have always felt that cloak should be a flat cost with a timer, rather than an energy drain. It is easier to balance and ability with a flat amount of time, rather than a flexible one that can build up over time. They can make the ability more powerful, because it is limited by time and a cool down. Without a cool down, the ability has to be limited in other ways, which I think has hurt cloak and made it less effective for the terran. If the cloaking cost provided double the amount of time cloaked per energy spent, it would allow for more snipes and EMPs. Once again, it could be a nerf, or a buff. But I am all for a change to cloak to make it more useful across the board, rather than just for nuke harass. | ||
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FabledIntegral
United States9232 Posts
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Leyra
United States1222 Posts
On July 28 2012 05:41 avilo wrote: Really? Where did I say that? Exactly, I didn't. It's called hyperbole, smartass. If you look in this very thread, you can see a poster by the name of Falling who agrees with your point, he dislikes the change because it takes the control out of the user's hands, and limits a few of the things they can do. However, he frames it appropriately, so he doesn't come off sounding like all he cares about is how his race is getting nerfed again. Hell, I can't even tell by his posts what race he plays. I could care less about the change because until the game is actually released its irrelevant to me. Just trying to teach you a little something about how perception works, but if you're gonna "NO U" all day, maybe I'm wasting my time. | ||
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avilo
United States4100 Posts
On July 28 2012 05:39 ThirdDegree wrote: A concern you raise seems to be that you have to send your ghosts uncloaked across the map in order to nuke. What about cloaking and moving to a position, waiting the cooldown, and then nuking? It just requires some babysitting. Being able to just cloak and nuke at will with no control required is a pretty crappy design choice in itself. a) It's incredibly risky to send a 200/100 unit out too far onto the map uncloaked for the purpose of nuking. But with the change, you would be forced to not cloak until you basically get within your opponent's vision which is bad. b) As analyzed previously in the OP, if you are forced to move to a position and then cloak it means you have less opportunity to launch nukes with that ghost, as well as your ghost being found. c) No one cloaks and nukes with zero control, 99% of the time you end up manually controlling your ghost. | ||
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Dvriel
607 Posts
I was playing the Micromancer TvZ style in the Hots map and didnt realised this change for the Ghost.Its pretty HUGE for this playstyle,because you just cant use it!!!Ghost were cloaked and walked thru the map full of Zergs Creep and nuked 3 or more bases at same time,forcing Z to make spores,spiens and overseers in every expansion,but now...OMG,you must drop ghost or send him to surely die walking on the map without cloak.The cooldown is actually ONE MINUTE.Its impossible to launch more than one nuke,and ghost being so expensive...I just dont understand it.Blizzard dont wanna them to be used in TvZ? In TvP I think its OK,because you cloak and can throw 2 EMPs,being full of energy and cloaked,regaining this energy,BUT...You must cloak just before you engage the P army and hope Observers die quick to not be spotted,but this never happens.Ghosts die almost instantly,even before engagements,and now Cloak will be USELESS.Nukes will be DEAD.I know this is only previous of BETA,but if they got this idea,and nobody says nothing about this continuos nerf of this unit,Terrans,will lose completely they unique usefull Caster. | ||
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Dagan159
United States203 Posts
On July 28 2012 05:43 Xiphos wrote: He is bringing attention to potential missteps by Blizzard while you are cruising with no such post of equal magnitude. At the moment to me, you are shitting down on someone else's concern w/o bringing more to the discussion. I think you should see things from a bigger perspective. Avilo has invited players to "shit on him." Is this a topic that should be discussed? Yes, should we remember that this change is in PRE-BETA? Yes we should. Should we start a post that says "ANOTHER TERRAN NERF COMING", "DUSTIN BROWDER AND BLIZZ HATE TERRAN" No, that is not thought provoking and is not up to TL standards, and Avilo is doing the community by bringing up a potentially important change to the game in the format of whine. | ||
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TDH
Finland25 Posts
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boomudead1
United States186 Posts
On July 28 2012 05:25 Dagan159 wrote: Wow avilo, from your idiotic rants on StoG, to this whine about something that is something I wouldnt even say is probable of making it into the game, I must say you really do take the cake for the whiney terrans. I play Terran, and yes the race has design flaws, but why dont you spend more time trying to work around them rather than complain over and over again. If the race is so broken how come Taeja just won MLG arena and Ryung made top 4 GSL? Stop trying to make things easier for yourself and start getting better by being better. people have the right to give feed backs and even blizzard said they wanted more feed backs from the community. you dont have anything nice to say then leave the guy alone. and do u really wanna bring tournament stats into this? | ||
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spbelky
United States623 Posts
Blizzard announces that they are effectively nerfing the Ghost, avilo makes one thread to bring attention to it, and gets a bunch of shit for "NOT EVEN BETA YET" "LOL AVILO TERRAN QQ THREAD" "ITS NOT A NERF YOU NOOB". I'm sorry, but this is a nerf, and this thread is warranted. If you believe otherwise, I'm sorry but I can't find the logic in you posting in this thread. | ||
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GhandiEAGLE
United States20754 Posts
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Falling
Canada11371 Posts
On July 28 2012 05:43 Plansix wrote: I don’t agree and I have always felt that cloak should be a flat cost with a timer, rather than an energy drain. It is easier to balance and ability with a flat amount of time, rather than a flexible one that can build up over time. They can make the ability more powerful, because it is limited by time and a cool down. Without a cool down, the ability has to be limited in other ways, which I think has hurt cloak and made it less effective for the terran. If the cloaking cost provided double the amount of time cloaked per energy spent, it would allow for more snipes and EMPs. Once again, it could be a nerf, or a buff. But I am all for a change to cloak to make it more useful across the board, rather than just for nuke harass. Cloak being more useful might have more to do with how they changed snipe (see qxc's thread on that.) But I think it's a rather elegant design to have cloak continually depleted by energy, but then also have emp and snipe vying for that same energy. There's a lot more choice involved in how soon to cloak your ghosts. Too soon and you'll waste your energy that you might need for snipe or emp. Too late and they're dead. But if it turns out it was premature, you can uncloak and run away. Or if you miscalculated, you can keep them cloaked for longer and find a better opportunity. It presents a greater range of opportunities and decisions for the player. But this new change there is only a minor conflict over energy resource. The actual number doesn't matter so much. But then it's set in stone. You have x amount of seconds/ minutes and then that's that. How long you keep your ghosts cloaked is no longer conflicts with your other ghost abilities. There's nothing that you as a gamer can do decision wise or control wise to change it. All that matters is that split second decision to cloak at just the right time and then clock starts ticking. | ||
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