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On July 30 2012 11:15 CikaZombi wrote:Show nested quote +On July 29 2012 19:05 DemigodcelpH wrote:On July 29 2012 10:28 mockturtle wrote:On July 28 2012 05:21 avilo wrote:
Simply don't change it. It's that simple. Um, why? Because you're already used to them the way they are? Your entire thread was about "oh no don't nerf Terran they're too weak" or "I do this thing I won't be able to do anymore". At no point did you weigh the concept as if you were choosing them from scratch. Seriously, the game is getting a bunch of new units and will go through a host of balance changes through the entire beta. "Nerfs" and "buffs" don't work additively. Personally I always thought the way Ghosts/Banshees cloak (and in bw as well) was pretty stupid. Managing mana is kind of a nuisance to begin with on regular spellcasters, suddenly with the ghost method you have to weigh considerations like, how long do I need to be cloaked for? what am I going to do once I get there? will i have enough mana to do what I need to do? will I have enough mana to get out? they won't be generating mana during this period either... where will that leave me in 5-10 minutes? Managing a group of multiple ghosts makes this even more of a nightmare... The funny thing is, I would actually consider the change overall a buff. Ignoring the argument that it would be easier to handle the ghosts, they spend 25 energy in one go and then immediately start regenerating energy. This basically means that cloak becomes significantly more mana efficient. I guess from your perspective the only design changes that are acceptable is if everything stays exactly the same except for super simple buffs, like +20 dmg to all avilo units.. Don't not comment on things you don't understand. This is absolutely a Ghost nerf. It's objective fact for several reasons outlined many times, and for you to actually call this is a buff is insulting to the readers of TL who have to put up with reading your post. As Avilo says: read before you write. On July 29 2012 10:55 ImNightmare wrote:
Can we just ignore this kid from here on out after this post? He is a blizzard forumer who constantly whines about balance. This game is not even in beta and he is already whining. Goodness.. Why are people writing things like this not getting bans? The nerf is only related to Nuking and is actually a buff to combat EMPing and Snipe which is unnecessary in this particular way as it is. I don't agree with this change in it's core, because it limits, rather than expands the usage (or we are all just set in our ways too much and it's actually good) of ghosts, and everything like that is bad for the entire game. But to call it blindly a nerf, without accounting other spells of the ghost, nor the entirety of changes in the entire EXPANSION (not limited to Terran) is both stupid and biased which is exactly how people view the OP to be.
Even the supposed buff can be bad when you play against a Protoss who is very good at Feedback. Since you will have more energy available - due to cloak not consuming energy while its running - you will take more damage when hit by Feedback. Sure, more energy seems to be good, but it could backfire and having to EMP your own units on purpose just so you have a low enough energy level not to die from Feedback seems like a bad thing.
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On July 30 2012 18:43 LavaLava wrote:Show nested quote +On July 30 2012 17:45 Kare wrote:
No point in making any post about balance for a game that has not come out yet, not even the beta it out yet.. come on. Maybe the game will be completely different and you wont even use nukes lategame because other things are superior "counters" to lategame z/p.
Chill out with this until proof is out after everyone has researched all options in HoTS. Despite the original title of this thread, it's not really a balance issue. It's that Nuke play is almost definitely going to see a sharp reduction if this change goes through, and it's hardly used at all anyway. It basically moves the cost of a nuke from 100/100 to 300/200 because the Ghost will almost always die after one nuke, if he even makes it in. The real issue is that you basically only have like 10-15 seconds of cloak to get into position and actually start the nuke timer. And the Ghost walks slowly. People just aren't going to nuke very often at all. If there are better lategame strategies, great, excellent, but then people will Nuke even less and less. Nukes are cool to use and to watch. They're incredibly entertaining, and rare, and this bad design change would take them almost completely out of the game.
You name it "bad" design change because of that but you dont't look at the whole picture. This change would make the strongest ability harder to use but the other abilities easier to use. Overall it is not clear of the HotS ghost will provide more or less excitement compared to WoL.
Reading this thread makes me wonder why all those guys play games (and still are not good enough to earn money) instead of designing games, because they must be experts on that.
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On July 30 2012 19:16 [F_]aths wrote:Show nested quote +On July 30 2012 18:43 LavaLava wrote:On July 30 2012 17:45 Kare wrote:
No point in making any post about balance for a game that has not come out yet, not even the beta it out yet.. come on. Maybe the game will be completely different and you wont even use nukes lategame because other things are superior "counters" to lategame z/p.
Chill out with this until proof is out after everyone has researched all options in HoTS. Despite the original title of this thread, it's not really a balance issue. It's that Nuke play is almost definitely going to see a sharp reduction if this change goes through, and it's hardly used at all anyway. It basically moves the cost of a nuke from 100/100 to 300/200 because the Ghost will almost always die after one nuke, if he even makes it in. The real issue is that you basically only have like 10-15 seconds of cloak to get into position and actually start the nuke timer. And the Ghost walks slowly. People just aren't going to nuke very often at all. If there are better lategame strategies, great, excellent, but then people will Nuke even less and less. Nukes are cool to use and to watch. They're incredibly entertaining, and rare, and this bad design change would take them almost completely out of the game. You name it "bad" design change because of that but you fail to see the entire picture. This change would make the strongest ability harder to use but the other abilities easier to use. Overall it is not clear of the HotS ghost will provide more or less excitement compared to WoL. Reading this thread makes me wonder why all those guys play games (and still are not good enough to earn money) instead of designing games, because they must be experts.
The other abilities are fine to use as they are ... and having a downtime in which you cant cloak - regardless of energy - is NOT what I would call "easier to use".
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On July 30 2012 18:49 S_SienZ wrote:Show nested quote +On July 30 2012 17:53 Shantastic wrote:On July 30 2012 17:42 Asturas wrote:I know that, but it is not impressive when You compare it to new units for P and Z. Umm no, it's pretty much the most powerful addition to the game. It's like the Spider Mine on crack. All I'm saying is that there's a whole landscape being reshaped. Be wary of getting hung up over a change that makes nuke harassment slightly harder, when your actual army composition is gonna be so well strengthened. Your argument is essentially because Ts are getting a strong unit that warrants one being gimped. Why this argument is terrible in the context of this change: this change is flawed in design conceptually rather than just an overdone nerf. There were many better ways to do the latter if it was warranted. If nukes were indeed too strong in conjunction with HotS units, a flat nerf to the damage done / AOE or it's cast time might have been better. This change risks gimping cloak nukes to Medivac energy upgrade status.
No, it doesn't put cloak nukes anywhere near that degree of inutility. It just means you'll have to resort to drops and devote further APM/supply to nuke harassment. And no, it's not gimped that you can no longer just waypoint a Ghost from your base to a random part of the map in the late game and force the other player to scramble his APM and cycle through every part of the map to find a little red dot.
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On July 30 2012 19:22 Rabiator wrote:Show nested quote +On July 30 2012 19:16 [F_]aths wrote:On July 30 2012 18:43 LavaLava wrote:On July 30 2012 17:45 Kare wrote:
No point in making any post about balance for a game that has not come out yet, not even the beta it out yet.. come on. Maybe the game will be completely different and you wont even use nukes lategame because other things are superior "counters" to lategame z/p.
Chill out with this until proof is out after everyone has researched all options in HoTS. Despite the original title of this thread, it's not really a balance issue. It's that Nuke play is almost definitely going to see a sharp reduction if this change goes through, and it's hardly used at all anyway. It basically moves the cost of a nuke from 100/100 to 300/200 because the Ghost will almost always die after one nuke, if he even makes it in. The real issue is that you basically only have like 10-15 seconds of cloak to get into position and actually start the nuke timer. And the Ghost walks slowly. People just aren't going to nuke very often at all. If there are better lategame strategies, great, excellent, but then people will Nuke even less and less. Nukes are cool to use and to watch. They're incredibly entertaining, and rare, and this bad design change would take them almost completely out of the game. You name it "bad" design change because of that but you fail to see the entire picture. This change would make the strongest ability harder to use but the other abilities easier to use. Overall it is not clear of the HotS ghost will provide more or less excitement compared to WoL. Reading this thread makes me wonder why all those guys play games (and still are not good enough to earn money) instead of designing games, because they must be experts. The other abilities are fine to use as they are ... and having a downtime in which you cant cloak - regardless of energy - is NOT what I would call "easier to use".
Are they fine or are we just already used to them? The cooldown which doesn't allow permanent cloaking for a longer time adds difficulty because one has to use encloak more strategically, but also eases the ghost handling because you don't have to manuall uncloak them to save energy.
But even if it would be an overall or even a complete nerf, it doesn't mean that it is unfair because all of the HotS changes need to be considered, and they are not even fixed yet.
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Cooldowns don't belong in SC
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On July 30 2012 19:39 sluggaslamoo wrote:
Cooldowns don't belong in SC
"Broodwars is a good game. If you like it then go and play it" LOL.
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On July 30 2012 20:01 parkin wrote:"Broodwars is a good game. If you like it then go and play it" LOL.
Broodwar is a pretty good game, and I still play it 
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On July 30 2012 20:01 parkin wrote:"Broodwars is a good game. If you like it then go and play it" LOL.
Too bad Blizzard is trying to kill it
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On July 28 2012 04:59 avilo wrote:
We all know how Terran has been doing lately. Terran does not need another nerf on top of every other nerf that the race has been hit with. Once again, I'll state that this all may be an oversight on Browder/Blizzard/Kim's part, and they may have not considered that their change to the ghost cloaking would be a huge nerf to Terran lategame...
I like how you manage to make it circle around to Terran is underpowered.
Terran is currently doing fine, they're sorting their shit out, that you would even presume to whine about a change that is 6 months off and not even remotely understood and try to link it to the current metagame is truely astounding.
It leads me to believe that you just don't get it.
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i feel like terran is weak atm, but i don't think we should worry too much about hots balance yet since it's not even in beta. Just focus on WoL for the time being
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Only avilo would consider it necessary to complain about balance in an unreleased expansion pack on unconfirmed balance adjustments which are still subject to change prior to release...
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I agree with avilo.
You guys are taking it personally when he clearly has a valid point.
Shut up and talk about the change.
OT: I personally think it is a buff, because considering a ghost with moebius reactor and the time it takes to walk from the barracks to the fighting field, you'll be reaching 100 energy more or less. Then you need it for the fight: cloak, walk in, and shit, 74 energy... This has happened so much it's not even funny. However, regarding the walking and nuking, I'm not sure about the numbers... How long does it take to decloak? And how much longer does it take to cloak again?
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On July 30 2012 20:13 Denzil wrote:Show nested quote +On July 28 2012 04:59 avilo wrote:
We all know how Terran has been doing lately. Terran does not need another nerf on top of every other nerf that the race has been hit with. Once again, I'll state that this all may be an oversight on Browder/Blizzard/Kim's part, and they may have not considered that their change to the ghost cloaking would be a huge nerf to Terran lategame...
I like how you manage to make it circle around to Terran is underpowered. Terran is currently doing fine, they're sorting their shit out, that you would even presume to whine about a change that is 6 months off and not even remotely understood and try to link it to the current metagame is truely astounding. It leads me to believe that you just don't get it.
While the current state of Terran is very debatable, the problem is Blizzard's design philosophy. Look at the amount of things that have been nerfed since release; Reapers, Hellions, and early Marine aggression have all been nerfed into the ground in various ways (including buffing other races). NP was nerfed, Archon Toilet was nerfed, Void Ray was nerfed, research times on several things were nerfed or removed, HT was nerfed, and this list just keeps going. Now we're seeing Blizzard try to remove units (the Carrier). This is just terrible design philosophy; not only has Blizzard not been addressing the major problems with SC2 as an esport, but instead of maybe giving races very slight options/improvements to deal with things that are rather powerful (or just actually leaving the metagame alone for a decent amount of time so players can learn to adapt), they've constantly removed viability and possibility from the game. Now, we have a game that is in a pretty crappy state; PvZ is nearly unwatchable and is absolute shit, PvP is better but is still painful to watch, and PvZ/TvZ are a race to kill Zerg before Hive tech or the game is just over. Even TvP tends to be a race to kill the P before a strong late game kicks in.
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The only way I would support this type of change is if they made it so cloak could be toggled on and off.
When on, the ghost is cloaked, but does not regen energy nor lose it.
When off, the ghost regens energy as normal.
Balance wise, it could cost to turn the cloak on if needed.
But jsut making cloak a 30 second gimmick would be terrible.
and my god, if they put that on my banshees...I will throw a tantrum.
30 second cloak on banshees.... /shudder
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On July 30 2012 21:56 Stratos_speAr wrote:Show nested quote +On July 30 2012 20:13 Denzil wrote:On July 28 2012 04:59 avilo wrote:
We all know how Terran has been doing lately. Terran does not need another nerf on top of every other nerf that the race has been hit with. Once again, I'll state that this all may be an oversight on Browder/Blizzard/Kim's part, and they may have not considered that their change to the ghost cloaking would be a huge nerf to Terran lategame...
I like how you manage to make it circle around to Terran is underpowered. Terran is currently doing fine, they're sorting their shit out, that you would even presume to whine about a change that is 6 months off and not even remotely understood and try to link it to the current metagame is truely astounding. It leads me to believe that you just don't get it. While the current state of Terran is very debatable, the problem is Blizzard's design philosophy.
The design and balance team took a bold approach to include very strong abilities. As it turned out, some were OP. Others were too weak. So the game got tweaked. The expansion will add now bold concepts, I doubt that all of the current additions survive until launch and even after the release we can expect some nerfs. You don't really criticise Blizzard for working on the game balance after the release?
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In some ways this makes the game a bit harder which i am always for. Nuke harassment lategame is really easy to pull off now. Cloak and send ghosts to every base while it is quite hard to defend since u have a limited period of time and have to find the nukes. This change will still allow for nuke harass but will be a LOT harder to pull off. Good or bad is just an opinion imo. On the balance side i really cant imagine what lategame will look like in hots so i wont comment.
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I dont see why people are getting angry at Avilo for talking about balance issues before HOTS is out. It doesnt hurt anyone and it might make Blizzard think twice about changing ghosts. I feel like people see a Avilo thread and get angry before they even click on it. Then they come in flaming and complaining. Hypocritical much?
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Nuke harassment lategame is really easy to pull off now Considering the cost of ghost + cloak + nuke, it better not be too apm intensive if its gonna cost me that much gas to even make it a possiblity
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On July 31 2012 08:27 sc2username wrote:
I dont see why people are getting angry at Avilo for talking about balance issues before HOTS is out. It doesnt hurt anyone and it might make Blizzard think twice about changing ghosts. I feel like people see a Avilo thread and get angry before they even click on it. Then they come in flaming and complaining. Hypocritical much?
nah just pointless.
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EPT
