Hi guys, I am posting this here to alert the community and blizzard developers of HOTS that they are nerfing Terran again in HOTS in the form of a ghost, cloaking, and nuking nerf (perhaps unintentionally).
edit: PLEASE READ THROUGH THE THREAD BEFORE SPEWING OUT "QQ" OR FORMING AN OPINION! Please take this as feedback, I have analyzed why the way blizzard have said they are going to change the ghost is indeed not a change, but another unnecessary nerf to Terran lategame.
I have made a video to go along with this thread and highlight the issue, which blizzard hopefully will get word of and take as feedback to not nerf the ghost again.
To elaborate here, what I am speaking of is Browder/Blizzard's current balance design intent to make the ghost's cloak ability work with a cool down which is a nerf to Terran lategame nuke harrassment as well as to the cloak ability directly.
Blizzard/Browder have said: "Ghost’s Cloak is now changed so that it is no longer able to be turned off and on within a moments notice. It instead can be used for a specified amount of time and if used strategically can help save Energy."
Let's first look at the current ghost cloak, and the proposed change: Current ghost cloak: -Initial one time energy cost of 25 energy, and then the ghost stays cloaked for the remainder of it's energy pool, uncloaking once all energy has been depleted. Proposed HOTS ghost change: -Initial one time energy chost of 25 energy. Ghost begins to regain energy immediately after the initial cost. The ghost now is on a cool down and will uncloak at the end of that cool down, and will be prevented from re-cloaking for certain amount of time.
The reason the HOTS change is a nerf to Terran lategame and nuke harrassment and the cloak ability in general is because of how nuke harrassment works.
First off, when you send out a ghost onto the map, you do not want the ghost to be visible to your opponent. We all know at high level multi-tasking is so key, and if your opponent can visibly spot your ghost walking across the map there is a less chance that your ghost is going to get there.
Secondly, with the proposed cool down changes on the cloak ability, this means that you can only launch 1 nuke during the period of cloak before your ghost will uncloak for the "specified amount of time" which allows your ghost to easily be spotted again and killed.
So not only does nuke harrassment become much less likely to ever work but when it does work, you will only be able to use 1 ghost to effectively launch 1 nuke at an opponent's infrastructure before they can easily spot and find your ghost.
Ghosts are expensive units, and a Terran player cannot dedicate 3-4 ghosts in one location, walking exposed across the map just for a chance to kill an opponent's infrastructure.
The other nerf here is you would no longer be able to load an already cloaked ghost in a medivac and drop it off still cloaked into an opponent's base. The cloak will run out and the ghost will be easily visible + have the remaining cooldown period to wait to re-cloak.
Against Zerg in lategame this will hurt in particular when the creep spread has covered Zerg's half of the map and reached the half way mark on the map, meaning you will never be able to sneak a ghost in and do much of anything with a nuke.
We all know how Terran has been doing lately. Terran does not need another nerf on top of every other nerf that the race has been hit with. Once again, I'll state that this all may be an oversight on Browder/Blizzard/Kim's part, and they may have not considered that their change to the ghost cloaking would be a huge nerf to Terran lategame...
But it is what it is. It's not a change, it's objectively a nerf, and unnecessary, and I would urge the developers to not change ghost cloak in this manner for HOTS, let alone any future WOL patch.
I hope by posting this that the community can see more in depth the implications of the ghost change and that this feedback can be directly useful to blizzard, so they do not further weaken Terran in late game scenarios.
edit: And if you don't want to call this a "nerf" then you can call it a terrible design change.
A lot of people may even be unaware of what blizzard was planning to do. I myself was just as unaware until the past day.
Are we seriously complaining about balance in a game that isnt even out yet? You cant say that something is being nerfed in a different game, when you dont even know the state of the other races.
Nerfs/ changes to units don't always make it into the game. Please don't complain about changes or at least complain about them when beta comes out. If its a big enough deal for players during the beta then blizzard will probably change it.
I don't understand the purpose of whining about balance for HotS, when we have no idea what balance is going to look like in HotS. Not to mention who knows if this will even end up in the game at launch. Seems like a lot of useless speculation.
The moment that cloaking will take less energy, you just activate ability again and again (8 cloacking periods and eqch lasts 30 seconds. It's huge, isn't it?)
Even though this post is unnecessary and premature, I tend to agree, this is a nerf to high level play and completely unnecessary, its not that hard to uncloak ghosts, I think this needs to be discussed more because it is such a terrible change.
If it stays like this then yes it will be a nerf in some areas but also a buff in some.
Vs Protoss, if you cloak just before running into emp and snipe then you will have more energy left to use on those spells than if you would have the energy draining constantly
The new QQ metagame. Whining about nerfs that havent even reached beta stage. You truly are a whining innovator Avilo. Seriously, how bout we wait a couple of months before we start complaining about HOTS. These threads are really getting ridiculous.
Let the beta come out first before starting something like this to see if the changes even affect anything greatly. Especially since there will be a new meta because of a whole bunch of new units, you really need to learn to wait and test things out before trying to jump to conclusions this fast. For all we know is that this won't even make it into the beta or into the game itself comes out after the beta. But I will agree with you that it is a bad change if it does make it through because it gives less control of the ghosts as you will have to commit to using them right away when cloaking unless you want to wait awhile (depending on how long the cooldown will be after cloaking.)
I'd request the mods when they read this to ban the idiots that are posting below TL standards with their "fuck off" or "QQ" or "whine" I'd urge people to actually read the thread. If thorzain, jinro, or anyone else notable posted this you would not write it off before reading it.
Do people want HOTS to be the best game possible? I certainly do, and yes, nothing is in stone, that does not mean it's not worth it to add in feedback/community feedback on things that will make the game better.
You know the entire game is changing right? So why even complain about a unit changing without having played the game?
Anyone can easily make a thread about how Battle Hellions can shred tons and tons of Zealots or any one of a million things but that would just shit up the forums.
the game isn't out yet. remember, phoenixes had overdrive and mothership was super op in the introduction videos. stop whining about the game that isn't out yet.
Agreed avilo! When I saw them mention that I was like... really... it feels more like windwalk from WC3.
Anyways, you're right. While nuking lategame at this point of time might be too efficient when done well (you can even do a fake nuke into nowhere just to make your opponent panic, waste time looking at his bases/army, and possibly even pull off his workers which, if he does for a few seconds, will make up for the cost of the nuke), I don't think this is the right way to change it. If what they are actually trying to get at is to prevent mass nuking all over the map, they shouldn't change cloak, they should change the nuke directly (cooldown on that, not cloak). Though of course, terran lategame is already commonly known to be not as strong as the other races, so if they take away more terran lategame power by nerfing the ability to harass with ghosts/nukes, terran would need something else to compensate.
Also it simply does not feel like a starcraft kind of spell. We've all been used to the classic cloak for a long time now, and remember their philosophy? Keep things simple! But now they propose to make 2 different kinds of cloaks?
When a Terran is at the stage of nuke harrassment (which never happens nowaday), he's mostly at the stage of sacrifying all its SCVs for mule and build a giga air deathball anyway, and that's pretty much the most powerful thing in the game.
it doesn't matter if the game is in beta or not. if blizzard intends for this to happen, it's up to the community to try as hard as they can to break what blizzard is trying to do.
thanks avilo for potentially finding an unintended flaw.
On July 28 2012 05:10 avilo wrote: I'd request the mods when they read this to ban the idiots that are posting below TL standards with their "fuck off" or "QQ" or "whine" I'd urge people to actually read the thread. If thorzain, jinro, or anyone else notable posted this you would not write it off before reading it.
Do people want HOTS to be the best game possible? I certainly do, and yes, nothing is in stone, that does not mean it's not worth it to add in feedback/community feedback on things that will make the game better.
We would still write it off because it is pure speculation. I don't mind the change, I believe that David Kim knows a lot more about the game balance than I do, and I hope he manages to keep the game as well balanced as it is.
On July 28 2012 05:12 Falling wrote: Did this have to be framed as a balance concern?
It seems a very dumb design change, but framing it as a balance debate starts the argument at such an unhelpful note.
It's a pretty big change that people are unaware of, it's a hybrid design concern/balance concern to be honest. I honestly don't think changing the thread title will help against the bandwagon posters that see it's I that posted these concerns. The people posting like that simply should not post at all tbh or actually post up to TL standards and read the thread before posting.
I agree, but as people have said, the way this was titled is really just baiting bad responses. Thanks for bringing this up though, I would much rather not have this change.
On July 28 2012 05:10 avilo wrote: I'd request the mods when they read this to ban the idiots that are posting below TL standards with their "fuck off" or "QQ" or "whine" I'd urge people to actually read the thread. If thorzain, jinro, or anyone else notable posted this you would not write it off before reading it.
Do people want HOTS to be the best game possible? I certainly do, and yes, nothing is in stone, that does not mean it's not worth it to add in feedback/community feedback on things that will make the game better.
We would still write it off because it is pure speculation. I don't mind the change, I believe that David Kim knows a lot more about the game balance than I do, and I hope he manages to keep the game as well balanced as it is.
If you read the OP, you'd see it's not just pure speculation. I have played the beta at anaheim briefly, and regardless of how close or far the HOTS beta custom map is to the beta, it does have the proposed change on the map which was tested in an actual game.
So no, do not write this off at all. It's a big concern. If a mod feels like people will post better by changing the title of the thread to "Terran ghost design change concern for HOTS" please do.
In the past, I would have said that speculation and complaining is pointless since we don't know if the other new units will make up for it. I would also have said that Blizzard is probably doing it on purpose to compensate for the new stuff.
However, since Blizzard often don't know what they're doing, it's probably just a nerf, and it's not a necessary nerf either. Cloaked ghosts and observer sniping is an important tool for Terran in lategame TvP, and this will weaken that.
On July 28 2012 05:10 avilo wrote: I'd request the mods when they read this to ban the idiots that are posting below TL standards with their "fuck off" or "QQ" or "whine" I'd urge people to actually read the thread. If thorzain, jinro, or anyone else notable posted this you would not write it off before reading it.
Do people want HOTS to be the best game possible? I certainly do, and yes, nothing is in stone, that does not mean it's not worth it to add in feedback/community feedback on things that will make the game better.
Two things. First, I don't think thorzain or Jinro would make a post about this to begin with. Second, you're telling mods (it's their job isn't it?) to ban people for whining while you frame this as a balance whine yourself.
I think there is absolutely no point in discussion the HotS balance right now. We don't even have a Beta, just some pre-beta infos blizzard gave out.... I would put my efford into something more constructive to be honest...
On July 28 2012 05:10 avilo wrote: I'd request the mods when they read this to ban the idiots that are posting below TL standards with their "fuck off" or "QQ" or "whine" I'd urge people to actually read the thread. If thorzain, jinro, or anyone else notable posted this you would not write it off before reading it.
Do people want HOTS to be the best game possible? I certainly do, and yes, nothing is in stone, that does not mean it's not worth it to add in feedback/community feedback on things that will make the game better.
To be fair, I read it without reading your name and wrote it off around 3/4's of the way through. It's a new expansion. This is a great change towards making ghosts much more of a strategy to use. If Terrans need buffed in other ways to compensate for the fact that ghosts are harder to use than we'll figure that out when we get to that point.
This isn't a "nerf", as you put it, its a change in the way the unit is suppose to be played out. It is Blizzard saying that the game would be harder/more fun if they make ghost cloak more of a thought process than it currently is. The reason they are making the change during hots and not during a random patch is because it is likely to throw balance a little out of whack, and will need other changes to help things even up.
Perhaps instead of saying that the ghost change is an unneeded nerf, you could discuss ways to make up for this change. One of the reasons respond to you like you do is because the way you write your opinions are very whiny and bitchy like. Thorzain or Jinro would never write this up, read through it, and decide it was OK to post. You need to present you argument in a little bit less of a biased manner. I'm honestly trying to help you here, not be mean. If you presented yourself in a little bit mature fashion, and made it sound less whiny and more of a legit complaint, than people might be able to read through your entire post before deciding it wasn't worth reading. I know you probably get very emotional over things like this, but you have to detach your emotions. When you try to do things like this with emotions it doesn't work very well.
On July 28 2012 05:12 Falling wrote: Did this have to be framed as a balance concern?
It seems a very dumb design change, but framing it as a balance debate starts the argument at such an unhelpful note.
It's okay, all the races got buffs and nerfs.
Terran got buffed with the spider mine, zerg got nerfed since I believe the overseer is gone, etc. etc. -_-
Complaining about balance in a game that hasn't even been played is laughable.
Well I think it's bad because it limits player control as you have to wait for unit to do its thing. To me taking control away from players is objectively bad unit design and the balance part is irrelevant because it can always be rebalanced.
On July 28 2012 05:10 avilo wrote: I'd request the mods when they read this to ban the idiots that are posting below TL standards with their "fuck off" or "QQ" or "whine" I'd urge people to actually read the thread. If thorzain, jinro, or anyone else notable posted this you would not write it off before reading it.
Do people want HOTS to be the best game possible? I certainly do, and yes, nothing is in stone, that does not mean it's not worth it to add in feedback/community feedback on things that will make the game better.
Two things. First, I don't think thorzain or Jinro would make a post about this to begin with. Second, you're telling mods (it's their job isn't it?) to ban people for whining while you frame this as a balance whine yourself.
You're missing the point of the thread/issue/concern if you're discussing me to be honest. Discuss the material from the OP thank you.
On July 28 2012 05:10 avilo wrote: I'd request the mods when they read this to ban the idiots that are posting below TL standards with their "fuck off" or "QQ" or "whine" I'd urge people to actually read the thread. If thorzain, jinro, or anyone else notable posted this you would not write it off before reading it.
Do people want HOTS to be the best game possible? I certainly do, and yes, nothing is in stone, that does not mean it's not worth it to add in feedback/community feedback on things that will make the game better.
ahh but the thing is, thorzain or jinro or anyone else notable wouldn't post this non-sense, your argument fails and so do you
On July 28 2012 05:10 avilo wrote: I'd request the mods when they read this to ban the idiots that are posting below TL standards with their "fuck off" or "QQ" or "whine" I'd urge people to actually read the thread. If thorzain, jinro, or anyone else notable posted this you would not write it off before reading it.
Do people want HOTS to be the best game possible? I certainly do, and yes, nothing is in stone, that does not mean it's not worth it to add in feedback/community feedback on things that will make the game better.
Two things. First, I don't think thorzain or Jinro would make a post about this to begin with. Second, you're telling mods (it's their job isn't it?) to ban people for whining while you frame this as a balance whine yourself.
And thats a bad thing. We want to encourage high level players on posting on forums, not just shit on them exclusively because of a bad title and a couple of trolls on the first page.
On July 28 2012 05:10 avilo wrote: I'd request the mods when they read this to ban the idiots that are posting below TL standards with their "fuck off" or "QQ" or "whine" I'd urge people to actually read the thread. If thorzain, jinro, or anyone else notable posted this you would not write it off before reading it.
Do people want HOTS to be the best game possible? I certainly do, and yes, nothing is in stone, that does not mean it's not worth it to add in feedback/community feedback on things that will make the game better.
To be fair, I read it without reading your name and wrote it off around 3/4's of the way through. It's a new expansion. This is a great change towards making ghosts much more of a strategy to use. If Terrans need buffed in other ways to compensate for the fact that ghosts are harder to use than we'll figure that out when we get to that point.
This isn't a "nerf", as you put it, its a change in the way the unit is suppose to be played out. It is Blizzard saying that the game would be harder/more fun if they make ghost cloak more of a thought process than it currently is. The reason they are making the change during hots and not during a random patch is because it is likely to throw balance a little out of whack, and will need other changes to help things even up.
Perhaps instead of saying that the ghost change is an unneeded nerf, you could discuss ways to make up for this change. One of the reasons respond to you like you do is because the way you write your opinions are very whiny and bitchy like. Thorzain or Jinro would never write this up, read through it, and decide it was OK to post. You need to present you argument in a little bit less of a biased manner. I'm honestly trying to help you here, not be mean. If you presented yourself in a little bit mature fashion, and made it sound less whiny and more of a legit complaint, than people might be able to read through your entire post before deciding it wasn't worth reading. I know you probably get very emotional over things like this, but you have to detach your emotions. When you try to do things like this with emotions it doesn't work very well.
Except Nukes needed a nerf a long time ago, especially the current map pool with the huge amount of ledges you have. Btw, there's always a medivac drop and as long as your opponent doesn't have vision on the edges of air you can drop, cloak, nuke, and leave. There's no reason to complain about the balance of a game that isn't out yet, because metagame effects balance hugely; and until we understand the metagame, it won't matter.
On July 28 2012 05:10 avilo wrote: I'd request the mods when they read this to ban the idiots that are posting below TL standards with their "fuck off" or "QQ" or "whine" I'd urge people to actually read the thread. If thorzain, jinro, or anyone else notable posted this you would not write it off before reading it.
Do people want HOTS to be the best game possible? I certainly do, and yes, nothing is in stone, that does not mean it's not worth it to add in feedback/community feedback on things that will make the game better.
To be fair, I read it without reading your name and wrote it off around 3/4's of the way through. It's a new expansion. This is a great change towards making ghosts much more of a strategy to use. If Terrans need buffed in other ways to compensate for the fact that ghosts are harder to use than we'll figure that out when we get to that point.
This isn't a "nerf", as you put it, its a change in the way the unit is suppose to be played out. It is Blizzard saying that the game would be harder/more fun if they make ghost cloak more of a thought process than it currently is. The reason they are making the change during hots and not during a random patch is because it is likely to throw balance a little out of whack, and will need other changes to help things even up.
Perhaps instead of saying that the ghost change is an unneeded nerf, you could discuss ways to make up for this change. One of the reasons respond to you like you do is because the way you write your opinions are very whiny and bitchy like. Thorzain or Jinro would never write this up, read through it, and decide it was OK to post. You need to present you argument in a little bit less of a biased manner. I'm honestly trying to help you here, not be mean. If you presented yourself in a little bit mature fashion, and made it sound less whiny and more of a legit complaint, than people might be able to read through your entire post before deciding it wasn't worth reading. I know you probably get very emotional over things like this, but you have to detach your emotions. When you try to do things like this with emotions it doesn't work very well.
Simply don't change it. It's that simple.
And that is why you fail at a fucking argument. That isn't how you discuss change. That is saying Blizzard is wrong, bitch wine bitch, don't change it. That is why no one takes you seriously. How the fuck are you suppose to argue with someone that won't even consider changing it?
On July 28 2012 05:10 avilo wrote: I'd request the mods when they read this to ban the idiots that are posting below TL standards with their "fuck off" or "QQ" or "whine" I'd urge people to actually read the thread. If thorzain, jinro, or anyone else notable posted this you would not write it off before reading it.
Do people want HOTS to be the best game possible? I certainly do, and yes, nothing is in stone, that does not mean it's not worth it to add in feedback/community feedback on things that will make the game better.
To be fair, I read it without reading your name and wrote it off around 3/4's of the way through. It's a new expansion. This is a great change towards making ghosts much more of a strategy to use. If Terrans need buffed in other ways to compensate for the fact that ghosts are harder to use than we'll figure that out when we get to that point.
This isn't a "nerf", as you put it, its a change in the way the unit is suppose to be played out. It is Blizzard saying that the game would be harder/more fun if they make ghost cloak more of a thought process than it currently is. The reason they are making the change during hots and not during a random patch is because it is likely to throw balance a little out of whack, and will need other changes to help things even up.
Perhaps instead of saying that the ghost change is an unneeded nerf, you could discuss ways to make up for this change. One of the reasons respond to you like you do is because the way you write your opinions are very whiny and bitchy like. Thorzain or Jinro would never write this up, read through it, and decide it was OK to post. You need to present you argument in a little bit less of a biased manner. I'm honestly trying to help you here, not be mean. If you presented yourself in a little bit mature fashion, and made it sound less whiny and more of a legit complaint, than people might be able to read through your entire post before deciding it wasn't worth reading. I know you probably get very emotional over things like this, but you have to detach your emotions. When you try to do things like this with emotions it doesn't work very well.
Simply don't change it. It's that simple.
And that is why you fail at a fucking argument. That isn't how you discuss change. That is saying Blizzard is wrong, bitch wine bitch, don't change it. That is why no one takes you seriously. How the fuck are you suppose to argue with someone that won't even consider changing it?
Um, Blizzard is wrong. There's really no reason for this change.
On July 28 2012 05:12 Falling wrote: Did this have to be framed as a balance concern?
It seems a very dumb design change, but framing it as a balance debate starts the argument at such an unhelpful note.
It's okay, all the races got buffs and nerfs.
Terran got buffed with the spider mine, zerg got nerfed since I believe the overseer is gone, etc. etc. -_-
Complaining about balance in a game that hasn't even been played is laughable.
Well I think it's bad because it limits player control as you have to wait for unit to do its thing. To me taking control away from players is objectively bad unit design and the balance part is irrelevant because it can always be rebalanced.
It reminds me of general sc2 micro/battle design, "If you gonna commit, there is no way out". You clicked cloak, you have to make this unit useful in 30 sec, the end.
It is totally unclear if this will be a buff or a nerf. With a flat energy cost and timer on cloak, it could allow for a more controlled use of EMP in conjunction with cloak. Currently if you cloak a ghost, you run the risk of “running over” and into critical EMP energy. The change could avoid this and allow terrans to know exactly what they are getting when they click the cloak button. If the length of time the Ghost is cloaked is sufficient, this could be a way to make ghosts more useful and controlled.
To be clear:
- We don’t know how much long cloak will last for the energy cost. The flat cost could be more efficient and use less energy for the amount of time cloaked.
- We don’t know what the cool down will be. If it is 10 in-game second, it shouldn’t have a huge effect on the game.
- A flat cost allows terrans to know exactly how much it costs to use cloak and EMP together, which eliminates surprises.
thanks for changing title, hopefully gets better discussion out of this thread -_-!
On July 28 2012 05:25 Plansix wrote: It is totally unclear if this will be a buff or a nerf. With a flat energy cost and timer on cloak, it could allow for a more controlled use of EMP in conjunction with cloak. Currently if you cloak a ghost, you run the risk of “running over” and into critical EMP energy. The change could avoid this and allow terrans to know exactly what they are getting when they click the cloak button. If the length of time the Ghost is cloaked is sufficient, this could be a way to make ghosts more useful and controlled.
To be clear:
- We don’t know how much long cloak will last for the energy cost. The flat cost could be more efficient and use less energy for the amount of time cloaked.
- We don’t know what the cool down will be. If it is 10 in-game second, it shouldn’t have a huge effect on the game.
- A flat cost allows terrans to know exactly how much it costs to use cloak and EMP together, which eliminates surprises.
It gives less control to the user, which is bad. Every good player can manage their cloak energy properly, to the point that when you do send out ghosts to nuke you literally pick the ones that already have 100 energy pooled up. There is no risk of "running over" it's up to the player to manage their units. The proposed change is a bad change in the ways i've analyzed, and in the terms you are speaking of it's just a simple dumbing down of the game.
Wow avilo, from your idiotic rants on StoG, to this whine about something that is something I wouldnt even say is probable of making it into the game, I must say you really do take the cake for the whiney terrans. I play Terran, and yes the race has design flaws, but why dont you spend more time trying to work around them rather than complain over and over again. If the race is so broken how come Taeja just won MLG arena and Ryung made top 4 GSL? Stop trying to make things easier for yourself and start getting better by being better.
On July 28 2012 05:10 avilo wrote: I'd request the mods when they read this to ban the idiots that are posting below TL standards with their "fuck off" or "QQ" or "whine" I'd urge people to actually read the thread. If thorzain, jinro, or anyone else notable posted this you would not write it off before reading it.
Do people want HOTS to be the best game possible? I certainly do, and yes, nothing is in stone, that does not mean it's not worth it to add in feedback/community feedback on things that will make the game better.
To be fair, I read it without reading your name and wrote it off around 3/4's of the way through. It's a new expansion. This is a great change towards making ghosts much more of a strategy to use. If Terrans need buffed in other ways to compensate for the fact that ghosts are harder to use than we'll figure that out when we get to that point.
This isn't a "nerf", as you put it, its a change in the way the unit is suppose to be played out. It is Blizzard saying that the game would be harder/more fun if they make ghost cloak more of a thought process than it currently is. The reason they are making the change during hots and not during a random patch is because it is likely to throw balance a little out of whack, and will need other changes to help things even up.
Perhaps instead of saying that the ghost change is an unneeded nerf, you could discuss ways to make up for this change. One of the reasons respond to you like you do is because the way you write your opinions are very whiny and bitchy like. Thorzain or Jinro would never write this up, read through it, and decide it was OK to post. You need to present you argument in a little bit less of a biased manner. I'm honestly trying to help you here, not be mean. If you presented yourself in a little bit mature fashion, and made it sound less whiny and more of a legit complaint, than people might be able to read through your entire post before deciding it wasn't worth reading. I know you probably get very emotional over things like this, but you have to detach your emotions. When you try to do things like this with emotions it doesn't work very well.
Simply don't change it. It's that simple.
And that is why you fail at a fucking argument. That isn't how you discuss change. That is saying Blizzard is wrong, bitch wine bitch, don't change it. That is why no one takes you seriously. How the fuck are you suppose to argue with someone that won't even consider changing it?
If its not broke don't fix it. Is anyone talking about lategame Terran being OP? Not that I've heard.
EDIT: For all the people bitching at avilo for making a topic about a game that hasn't hit beta yet I'd like to direct your attention to this topic about the purposed change to pylons where low pylons no longer power high ground structures/allow for warp in. Notice how not avilo created this topic, a discussion followed. Someone who has a past history of balance whine makes a legitimate topic, not different than the topic on pylons and this thread turns to shit over who made it.
HOTS isn't even at the start of the beta yet. And out of all people ... why you? .....You know the actual final cooldown duration? Cloak length? Nothing is fixed and you want to point out things that aren't even in beta-status, really? That's what the beta is for.
How about, 25-50 energy cost to activate. No cost to maintain it, but no regeneration while cloaked. If cloak is turned off, cool down to re-cloak. Cloak would have to be turned off pretty much after every fight, or ghosts wouldn't have very much energy for the next fight. Maybe also auto-deactivate cloak if energy drops below 25 or so. If it's so late game that Terran has >25 ghosts and wasn't punished AND opponent has no detection or AOE, they should get stomped. Much like anyone who gets stomped for being unprepared to a Colossus switch or broodlord/ultra tech switches.
On July 28 2012 05:28 Kuni wrote: HOTS isn't even at the start of the beta yet. And out of all people ... why you? .....You know the actual final cooldown duration? Cloak length? Nothing is fixed and you want to point out things that aren't even in beta-status, really? That's what the beta is for.
On July 28 2012 05:25 Dagan159 wrote: Wow avilo, from your idiotic rants on StoG, to this whine about something that is something I wouldnt even say is probable of making it into the game, I must say you really do take the cake for the whiney terrans. I play Terran, and yes the race has design flaws, but why dont you spend more time trying to work around them rather than complain over and over again. If the race is so broken how come Taeja just won MLG arena and Ryung made top 4 GSL? Stop trying to make things easier for yourself and start getting better by being better.
Stop deprecating the man's effort in improving the scene. He probably contributed a lot more to the community than you do.
On July 28 2012 05:28 Kuni wrote: HOTS isn't even at the start of the beta yet. And out of all people ... why you? .....You know the actual final cooldown duration? Cloak length? Nothing is fixed and you want to point out things that aren't even in beta-status, really? That's what the beta is for.
It's just so sad.
All the other design discussions have received generally positive responses, despite being vague as hell and having basically no original content. This is pretty much the only worthwhile one so far, because from the last time we saw HotS it had this feature and it could very easily be argued, as Avilo did in the OP, that its a negative change to game design, balance arguments aside.
On July 28 2012 05:29 MrCash wrote: How about, 25-50 energy cost to activate. No cost to maintain it, but no regeneration while cloaked. If cloak is turned off, cool down to re-cloak. Cloak would have to be turned off pretty much after every fight, or ghosts wouldn't have very much energy for the next fight. Maybe also auto-deactivate cloak if energy drops below 25 or so. If it's so late game that Terran has >25 ghosts and wasn't punished AND opponent has no detection or AOE, they should get stomped. Much like anyone who gets stomped for being unprepared to a Colossus switch or broodlord/ultra tech switches.
Why would you ever want to decloak if it costs alot of energy to start it, no energy to maintain it, and you can recloak for a good while afters?
It's not premature at all. If an opponent doesn't have detection they shouldn't be able to wait a couple seconds and be able to kill the ghosts. Why should this be any different from DTs?
put the nuke nerf in perspective, just build warhounds. I mean seriously it's really hard to imagine what this nerf has for implications on the balance and in future meta game.
On July 28 2012 05:25 Dagan159 wrote: Wow avilo, from your idiotic rants on StoG, to this whine about something that is something I wouldnt even say is probable of making it into the game, I must say you really do take the cake for the whiney terrans. I play Terran, and yes the race has design flaws, but why dont you spend more time trying to work around them rather than complain over and over again. If the race is so broken how come Taeja just won MLG arena and Ryung made top 4 GSL? Stop trying to make things easier for yourself and start getting better by being better.
Stop deprecating the man's effort in improving the scene. He probably contributed a lot more to the community than you do.
I would be happy to hear what exaclty Avilo's contributions are.
At the moment to me avilo is the champion of the terran whine, which is detrimental to the community.
What the fuck is wrong with you people? If devs didn't want feedback on the game / expansion development process, they would never release it for playtesting, they obviously do want feedback from the players so the argument of 'THE GAME ISNT EVEN OUT YET' is about as stupid as you could possibly get. The whole point of having alpha / beta versions and letting players try them out is to get feedback on upcoming changes and alter stuff that is deemed bad BEFORE the game is released.
On July 28 2012 05:10 Medrea wrote: Game not out yet.
Complain about balance anyway.
Avilo.
why do you think blizzard goes through all these alpha and beta testing crap b4 launching the game? they want to test it to get more user feed backs. people have been playing the custom Hots its not like the game hasn't been tried out yet. he has a point and any nerf in the future for a race is a nerf imo
On July 28 2012 05:29 MrCash wrote: How about, 25-50 energy cost to activate. No cost to maintain it, but no regeneration while cloaked. If cloak is turned off, cool down to re-cloak. Cloak would have to be turned off pretty much after every fight, or ghosts wouldn't have very much energy for the next fight. Maybe also auto-deactivate cloak if energy drops below 25 or so. If it's so late game that Terran has >25 ghosts and wasn't punished AND opponent has no detection or AOE, they should get stomped. Much like anyone who gets stomped for being unprepared to a Colossus switch or broodlord/ultra tech switches.
Why would you ever want to decloak if it costs alot of energy to start it, no energy to maintain it, and you can recloak for a good while afters?
Because you need to regenerate energy after sniping/emping. Cloak by itself isn't useful unless there is no detection or AOE in the enemy army.
To all the people saying Avilo is doing a great job of bringing this up to the community, you're ignoring the WAY he brings it up, lol. If he posted "Hey guys, I found this, what do you guys think?" it would be one thing, but he posts "omg guys, terran sucks so bad right now and we're getting fucking NERFED AGAIN! David Kim hates terran!11!11!!"
If you want to be taken seriously, learn how to present your points and arguments without sounding like you're whining about how shitty your race is.
edit: Not to mention, again, its not even beta. lol.
It isn't even out. They may just be testing with some changes to see if it adds more depth to the game. It may not even come out in the beta. How about those Shredders can't wait to test those out..Oh wait...Didn't even make it. Please let them test things. Give your thoughts when you have beta and see if the ghost has actually been changed.
A concern you raise seems to be that you have to send your ghosts uncloaked across the map in order to nuke. What about cloaking and moving to a position, waiting the cooldown, and then nuking? It just requires some babysitting. Being able to just cloak and nuke at will with no control required is a pretty crappy design choice in itself.
Avilo is not whining he is just bringing attetion to the fact that it is a bad design decision for Blizzard to make the ghost cloak a timed effect. You guys are prejudging avilo just because he is avilo. Yes he has whined a bit in the past but looking on this post by itself i seen no reason for you guys to be clamoring "whinner" "QQ b4 teh beta" and so on this is not /r/starcraft.
On July 28 2012 05:39 ThirdDegree wrote: A concern you raise seems to be that you have to send your ghosts uncloaked across the map in order to nuke. What about cloaking and moving to a position, waiting the cooldown, and then nuking? It just requires some babysitting. Being able to just cloak and nuke at will with no control required is a pretty crappy design choice in itself.
A high level zerg paying any attention at all will spot the ghost on his creep in the time you wait for the cooldwon to reset giving him more than enough time to neutralize the ghost or evacute his drones making you waste a nuke.
On July 28 2012 05:38 Leyra wrote: To all the people saying Avilo is doing a great job of bringing this up to the community, you're ignoring the WAY he brings it up, lol. If he posted "Hey guys, I found this, what do you guys think?" it would be one thing, but he posts "omg guys, terran sucks so bad right now and we're getting fucking NERFED AGAIN! David Kim hates terran!11!11!!"
If you want to be taken seriously, learn how to present your points and arguments without sounding like you're whining about how shitty your race is.
edit: Not to mention, again, its not even beta. lol.
Really? Where did I say that? Exactly, I didn't. Stay on topic of discussion thanks :D!
On July 28 2012 05:12 Falling wrote: Did this have to be framed as a balance concern?
It seems a very dumb design change, but framing it as a balance debate starts the argument at such an unhelpful note.
It's okay, all the races got buffs and nerfs.
Terran got buffed with the spider mine, zerg got nerfed since I believe the overseer is gone, etc. etc. -_-
Complaining about balance in a game that hasn't even been played is laughable.
Well I think it's bad because it limits player control as you have to wait for unit to do its thing. To me taking control away from players is objectively bad unit design and the balance part is irrelevant because it can always be rebalanced.
It reminds me of general sc2 micro/battle design, "If you gonna commit, there is no way out". You clicked cloak, you have to make this unit useful in 30 sec, the end.
Yeah the fact that it puts the player in the position of wanting to click, but they have to wait around before they can control it is not bad. Quite literally "fighting against the game interface." Ghost energy management is something every Terran needs to figure out, but when the Ghost cloaks and uncloaks should be in the hands of the player.
It reminds of (if I can pull out my favourite punching bag) SupCom2's air units that have massive turn arcs where you just have to wait around for the unit to do it's thing before you can properly control it. It's the exact opposite direction that SC2 unit design needs to go.
On July 28 2012 05:25 Dagan159 wrote: Wow avilo, from your idiotic rants on StoG, to this whine about something that is something I wouldnt even say is probable of making it into the game, I must say you really do take the cake for the whiney terrans. I play Terran, and yes the race has design flaws, but why dont you spend more time trying to work around them rather than complain over and over again. If the race is so broken how come Taeja just won MLG arena and Ryung made top 4 GSL? Stop trying to make things easier for yourself and start getting better by being better.
Stop deprecating the man's effort in improving the scene. He probably contributed a lot more to the community than you do.
I would be happy to hear what exaclty Avilo's contributions are.
At the moment to me avilo is the champion of the terran whine, which is detrimental to the community.
He is bringing attention to potential missteps by Blizzard while you are cruising with no such post of equal magnitude.
At the moment to me, you are shitting down on someone else's concern w/o bringing more to the discussion. I think you should see things from a bigger perspective.
On July 28 2012 05:25 Plansix wrote: It is totally unclear if this will be a buff or a nerf. With a flat energy cost and timer on cloak, it could allow for a more controlled use of EMP in conjunction with cloak. Currently if you cloak a ghost, you run the risk of “running over” and into critical EMP energy. The change could avoid this and allow terrans to know exactly what they are getting when they click the cloak button. If the length of time the Ghost is cloaked is sufficient, this could be a way to make ghosts more useful and controlled.
To be clear:
- We don’t know how much long cloak will last for the energy cost. The flat cost could be more efficient and use less energy for the amount of time cloaked.
- We don’t know what the cool down will be. If it is 10 in-game second, it shouldn’t have a huge effect on the game.
- A flat cost allows terrans to know exactly how much it costs to use cloak and EMP together, which eliminates surprises.
It gives less control to the user, which is bad. Every good player can manage their cloak energy properly, to the point that when you do send out ghosts to nuke you literally pick the ones that already have 100 energy pooled up. There is no risk of "running over" it's up to the player to manage their units. The proposed change is a bad change in the ways i've analyzed, and in the terms you are speaking of it's just a simple dumbing down of the game.
I don’t agree and I have always felt that cloak should be a flat cost with a timer, rather than an energy drain. It is easier to balance and ability with a flat amount of time, rather than a flexible one that can build up over time. They can make the ability more powerful, because it is limited by time and a cool down. Without a cool down, the ability has to be limited in other ways, which I think has hurt cloak and made it less effective for the terran. If the cloaking cost provided double the amount of time cloaked per energy spent, it would allow for more snipes and EMPs.
Once again, it could be a nerf, or a buff. But I am all for a change to cloak to make it more useful across the board, rather than just for nuke harass.
Ugh, Avilo you start making decent, valid points, then you shit up your own OP by bringing in balance whine. I highly suggest you edit those parts out.
On July 28 2012 05:38 Leyra wrote: To all the people saying Avilo is doing a great job of bringing this up to the community, you're ignoring the WAY he brings it up, lol. If he posted "Hey guys, I found this, what do you guys think?" it would be one thing, but he posts "omg guys, terran sucks so bad right now and we're getting fucking NERFED AGAIN! David Kim hates terran!11!11!!"
If you want to be taken seriously, learn how to present your points and arguments without sounding like you're whining about how shitty your race is.
edit: Not to mention, again, its not even beta. lol.
Really? Where did I say that? Exactly, I didn't.
It's called hyperbole, smartass. If you look in this very thread, you can see a poster by the name of Falling who agrees with your point, he dislikes the change because it takes the control out of the user's hands, and limits a few of the things they can do. However, he frames it appropriately, so he doesn't come off sounding like all he cares about is how his race is getting nerfed again. Hell, I can't even tell by his posts what race he plays.
I could care less about the change because until the game is actually released its irrelevant to me. Just trying to teach you a little something about how perception works, but if you're gonna "NO U" all day, maybe I'm wasting my time.
On July 28 2012 05:39 ThirdDegree wrote: A concern you raise seems to be that you have to send your ghosts uncloaked across the map in order to nuke. What about cloaking and moving to a position, waiting the cooldown, and then nuking? It just requires some babysitting. Being able to just cloak and nuke at will with no control required is a pretty crappy design choice in itself.
a) It's incredibly risky to send a 200/100 unit out too far onto the map uncloaked for the purpose of nuking. But with the change, you would be forced to not cloak until you basically get within your opponent's vision which is bad.
b) As analyzed previously in the OP, if you are forced to move to a position and then cloak it means you have less opportunity to launch nukes with that ghost, as well as your ghost being found.
c) No one cloaks and nukes with zero control, 99% of the time you end up manually controlling your ghost.
I was playing the Micromancer TvZ style in the Hots map and didnt realised this change for the Ghost.Its pretty HUGE for this playstyle,because you just cant use it!!!Ghost were cloaked and walked thru the map full of Zergs Creep and nuked 3 or more bases at same time,forcing Z to make spores,spiens and overseers in every expansion,but now...OMG,you must drop ghost or send him to surely die walking on the map without cloak.The cooldown is actually ONE MINUTE.Its impossible to launch more than one nuke,and ghost being so expensive...I just dont understand it.Blizzard dont wanna them to be used in TvZ? In TvP I think its OK,because you cloak and can throw 2 EMPs,being full of energy and cloaked,regaining this energy,BUT...You must cloak just before you engage the P army and hope Observers die quick to not be spotted,but this never happens.Ghosts die almost instantly,even before engagements,and now Cloak will be USELESS.Nukes will be DEAD.I know this is only previous of BETA,but if they got this idea,and nobody says nothing about this continuos nerf of this unit,Terrans,will lose completely they unique usefull Caster.
On July 28 2012 05:25 Dagan159 wrote: Wow avilo, from your idiotic rants on StoG, to this whine about something that is something I wouldnt even say is probable of making it into the game, I must say you really do take the cake for the whiney terrans. I play Terran, and yes the race has design flaws, but why dont you spend more time trying to work around them rather than complain over and over again. If the race is so broken how come Taeja just won MLG arena and Ryung made top 4 GSL? Stop trying to make things easier for yourself and start getting better by being better.
Stop deprecating the man's effort in improving the scene. He probably contributed a lot more to the community than you do.
I would be happy to hear what exaclty Avilo's contributions are.
At the moment to me avilo is the champion of the terran whine, which is detrimental to the community.
He is bringing attention to potential missteps by Blizzard while you are cruising with no such post of equal magnitude.
At the moment to me, you are shitting down on someone else's concern w/o bringing more to the discussion. I think you should see things from a bigger perspective.
Avilo has invited players to "shit on him."
Is this a topic that should be discussed? Yes, should we remember that this change is in PRE-BETA? Yes we should. Should we start a post that says "ANOTHER TERRAN NERF COMING", "DUSTIN BROWDER AND BLIZZ HATE TERRAN" No, that is not thought provoking and is not up to TL standards, and Avilo is doing the community by bringing up a potentially important change to the game in the format of whine.
On July 28 2012 05:25 Dagan159 wrote: Wow avilo, from your idiotic rants on StoG, to this whine about something that is something I wouldnt even say is probable of making it into the game, I must say you really do take the cake for the whiney terrans. I play Terran, and yes the race has design flaws, but why dont you spend more time trying to work around them rather than complain over and over again. If the race is so broken how come Taeja just won MLG arena and Ryung made top 4 GSL? Stop trying to make things easier for yourself and start getting better by being better.
people have the right to give feed backs and even blizzard said they wanted more feed backs from the community. you dont have anything nice to say then leave the guy alone. and do u really wanna bring tournament stats into this?
Blizzard announces that they were going to remove the Carrier and there is an outcry to save the Carrier. In fact, there is a 1200 post thread on such topic.
Blizzard announces that they are effectively nerfing the Ghost, avilo makes one thread to bring attention to it, and gets a bunch of shit for "NOT EVEN BETA YET" "LOL AVILO TERRAN QQ THREAD" "ITS NOT A NERF YOU NOOB".
I'm sorry, but this is a nerf, and this thread is warranted. If you believe otherwise, I'm sorry but I can't find the logic in you posting in this thread.
He's not pointing out the balance, guys, as much as hes trying to alert Blizzard that they may have done unintentional damage. This isn't a rant on balance -_-
On July 28 2012 05:25 avilo wrote: thanks for changing title, hopefully gets better discussion out of this thread -_-!
On July 28 2012 05:25 Plansix wrote: It is totally unclear if this will be a buff or a nerf. With a flat energy cost and timer on cloak, it could allow for a more controlled use of EMP in conjunction with cloak. Currently if you cloak a ghost, you run the risk of “running over” and into critical EMP energy. The change could avoid this and allow terrans to know exactly what they are getting when they click the cloak button. If the length of time the Ghost is cloaked is sufficient, this could be a way to make ghosts more useful and controlled.
To be clear:
- We don’t know how much long cloak will last for the energy cost. The flat cost could be more efficient and use less energy for the amount of time cloaked.
- We don’t know what the cool down will be. If it is 10 in-game second, it shouldn’t have a huge effect on the game.
- A flat cost allows terrans to know exactly how much it costs to use cloak and EMP together, which eliminates surprises.
It gives less control to the user, which is bad. Every good player can manage their cloak energy properly, to the point that when you do send out ghosts to nuke you literally pick the ones that already have 100 energy pooled up. There is no risk of "running over" it's up to the player to manage their units. The proposed change is a bad change in the ways i've analyzed, and in the terms you are speaking of it's just a simple dumbing down of the game.
I don’t agree and I have always felt that cloak should be a flat cost with a timer, rather than an energy drain. It is easier to balance and ability with a flat amount of time, rather than a flexible one that can build up over time. They can make the ability more powerful, because it is limited by time and a cool down. Without a cool down, the ability has to be limited in other ways, which I think has hurt cloak and made it less effective for the terran. If the cloaking cost provided double the amount of time cloaked per energy spent, it would allow for more snipes and EMPs.
Once again, it could be a nerf, or a buff. But I am all for a change to cloak to make it more useful across the board, rather than just for nuke harass.
Cloak being more useful might have more to do with how they changed snipe (see qxc's thread on that.) But I think it's a rather elegant design to have cloak continually depleted by energy, but then also have emp and snipe vying for that same energy. There's a lot more choice involved in how soon to cloak your ghosts. Too soon and you'll waste your energy that you might need for snipe or emp. Too late and they're dead. But if it turns out it was premature, you can uncloak and run away. Or if you miscalculated, you can keep them cloaked for longer and find a better opportunity. It presents a greater range of opportunities and decisions for the player.
But this new change there is only a minor conflict over energy resource. The actual number doesn't matter so much. But then it's set in stone. You have x amount of seconds/ minutes and then that's that. How long you keep your ghosts cloaked is no longer conflicts with your other ghost abilities. There's nothing that you as a gamer can do decision wise or control wise to change it. All that matters is that split second decision to cloak at just the right time and then clock starts ticking.
On July 28 2012 05:54 spbelky wrote: Blizzard announces that they were going to remove the Carrier and there is an outcry to save the Carrier. In fact, there is a 1200 post thread on such topic.
Blizzard announces that they are effectively nerfing the Ghost, avilo makes one thread to bring attention to it, and gets a bunch of shit for "NOT EVEN BETA YET" "LOL AVILO TERRAN QQ THREAD" "ITS NOT A NERF YOU NOOB".
I'm sorry, but this is a nerf, and this thread is warranted. If you believe otherwise, I'm sorry but I can't find the logic in you posting in this thread.
The difference is, the Carrier thread is a "Hey, we like this unit, we don't want it to go away." and this thread is "Terran is getting nerfed again!!!" People don't take well to balance whining, especially from someone who's rather notorious for it. If he frames his argument as a poor design choice (Which, if it sticks, it may legitimately be), he might be a little better received.
On July 28 2012 05:39 ThirdDegree wrote: A concern you raise seems to be that you have to send your ghosts uncloaked across the map in order to nuke. What about cloaking and moving to a position, waiting the cooldown, and then nuking? It just requires some babysitting. Being able to just cloak and nuke at will with no control required is a pretty crappy design choice in itself.
a) It's incredibly risky to send a 200/100 unit out too far onto the map uncloaked for the purpose of nuking. But with the change, you would be forced to not cloak until you basically get within your opponent's vision which is bad.
b) As analyzed previously in the OP, if you are forced to move to a position and then cloak it means you have less opportunity to launch nukes with that ghost, as well as your ghost being found.
c) No one cloaks and nukes with zero control, 99% of the time you end up manually controlling your ghost.
Totally AGREE!!!
Ghosts is supposed to go cloaked.Its a Spy-kind Unit,being unseen in the enemy army to do harras or damage using his unique ability.Same as Banshee.Can you imagine a Banshee with cooldown on CLOAK???30ss?Really?What is the point of this??? 30s cloaked,20s Nuke and you got exactly 10s to run back home before die.And in late game TvZ its impossible if you dont got your own Personal-Ghost-BodyGuard-Medivac and hope to not being spotted flyinjg around the map.Its just crazy!!! One of the worst decisions of Blizz ever.Nobody will use Cloak and ghost will die in HotS
I don't know why you claim early in the video that its an unintentional nerf.Its pretty clear they want to intentionally nerf the ability to cloak all the way from your base, walk over to the enemy's base and then nuke. It seems as if they want you to be more tactical with your ghosts instead of queuing up 5 commands and being done with it. Whether or not its balanced is yet to be seen, but it will require terrans to pay more attention to their harassing ghost than they currently do.
On July 28 2012 05:25 Dagan159 wrote: Wow avilo, from your idiotic rants on StoG, to this whine about something that is something I wouldnt even say is probable of making it into the game, I must say you really do take the cake for the whiney terrans. I play Terran, and yes the race has design flaws, but why dont you spend more time trying to work around them rather than complain over and over again. If the race is so broken how come Taeja just won MLG arena and Ryung made top 4 GSL? Stop trying to make things easier for yourself and start getting better by being better.
people have the right to give feed backs and even blizzard said they wanted more feed backs from the community. you dont have anything nice to say then leave the guy alone. and do u really wanna bring tournament stats into this?
There is feedback and then there is whine. Im afriad in avilo's case the latter is most prevelant. I brought up the fact that some terrans still have done moderately well to highlight the fact that it isnt impossible for Terran to win. Of course the community should be giving feedback to blizzard, but once the diction devolves into that of whine, the community stops benefitting. If avilo doesnt know how to give feedback about the game, he should focus on playing and getting better.
On July 28 2012 05:38 Leyra wrote: To all the people saying Avilo is doing a great job of bringing this up to the community, you're ignoring the WAY he brings it up, lol. If he posted "Hey guys, I found this, what do you guys think?" it would be one thing, but he posts "omg guys, terran sucks so bad right now and we're getting fucking NERFED AGAIN! David Kim hates terran!11!11!!"
If you want to be taken seriously, learn how to present your points and arguments without sounding like you're whining about how shitty your race is.
edit: Not to mention, again, its not even beta. lol.
doesnt matter whichever "ways" he present the post imo. it has the same point.
On July 28 2012 05:54 spbelky wrote: Blizzard announces that they were going to remove the Carrier and there is an outcry to save the Carrier. In fact, there is a 1200 post thread on such topic.
Blizzard announces that they are effectively nerfing the Ghost, avilo makes one thread to bring attention to it, and gets a bunch of shit for "NOT EVEN BETA YET" "LOL AVILO TERRAN QQ THREAD" "ITS NOT A NERF YOU NOOB".
I'm sorry, but this is a nerf, and this thread is warranted. If you believe otherwise, I'm sorry but I can't find the logic in you posting in this thread.
The difference is, the Carrier thread is a "Hey, we like this unit, we don't want it to go away." and this thread is "Terran is getting nerfed again!!!" People don't take well to balance whining, especially from someone who's rather notorious for it. If he frames his argument as a poor design choice (Which, if it sticks, it may legitimately be), he might be a little better received.
You're right, avilo did frame his post poorly, which will inevitably distract many people from the message behind the emotion... which is unfortunate because this is actually a very important issue, and hopefully Blizzard realizes this eventually.
So while the Carrier and Ghost change were presented in very different manners, I think we can agree that they are both proposed changes that need to be discussed openly, even if the beta isn't even out yet.
On July 28 2012 05:38 Leyra wrote: To all the people saying Avilo is doing a great job of bringing this up to the community, you're ignoring the WAY he brings it up, lol. If he posted "Hey guys, I found this, what do you guys think?" it would be one thing, but he posts "omg guys, terran sucks so bad right now and we're getting fucking NERFED AGAIN! David Kim hates terran!11!11!!"
If you want to be taken seriously, learn how to present your points and arguments without sounding like you're whining about how shitty your race is.
edit: Not to mention, again, its not even beta. lol.
In your first paragraph you quoted (that means avilo actually said it) "omg guys, terran sucks so bad right now and we're getting fucking NERFED AGAIN! David Kim hates terran!11!11!!" I reread the OP and can't for the life of me find that quote.
Despite what the haters might think, this is not a "whine" but a potential (meaning possible) problem that avilo's stream viewers pointed out to him. It was important enough for him to take time from his hectic schedule to bring it to the community. If you are unable to contribute with logical thoughts and reasoning, then you might want to just not comment, period.
On July 28 2012 05:56 ronpaul012 wrote: I don't know why you claim early in the video that its an unintentional nerf.Its pretty clear they want to intentionally nerf the ability to cloak all the way from your base, walk over to the enemy's base and then nuke. It seems as if they want you to be more tactical with your ghosts instead of queuing up 5 commands and being done with it. Whether or not its balanced is yet to be seen, but it will require terrans to pay more attention to their harassing ghost than they currently do.
I think the point is that if this change were to go through, there wouldnt be a harassing ghost to pay attention to. The strategy of nuke harass would effectively be obsolete.
On July 28 2012 05:54 spbelky wrote: Blizzard announces that they were going to remove the Carrier and there is an outcry to save the Carrier. In fact, there is a 1200 post thread on such topic.
Blizzard announces that they are effectively nerfing the Ghost, avilo makes one thread to bring attention to it, and gets a bunch of shit for "NOT EVEN BETA YET" "LOL AVILO TERRAN QQ THREAD" "ITS NOT A NERF YOU NOOB".
I'm sorry, but this is a nerf, and this thread is warranted. If you believe otherwise, I'm sorry but I can't find the logic in you posting in this thread.
The difference is, the Carrier thread is a "Hey, we like this unit, we don't want it to go away." and this thread is "Terran is getting nerfed again!!!" People don't take well to balance whining, especially from someone who's rather notorious for it. If he frames his argument as a poor design choice (Which, if it sticks, it may legitimately be), he might be a little better received.
You're right, avilo did frame his post poorly, which will inevitably distract many people from the message behind the emotion... which is unfortunate because this is actually a very important issue, and hopefully Blizzard realizes this eventually.
So while the Carrier and Ghost change were presented in very different manners, I think we can agree that they are both proposed changes that need to be discussed openly, even if the beta isn't even out yet.
I actually agree 100% man, the subject itself is worth as much discussion as the Carrier change (the actual value varies depending on the person, since its pre-beta, though the Carrier change seems more "final"), but just something people should learn is how much the presentation of a subject actually matters, lol.
On July 28 2012 05:56 ronpaul012 wrote: I don't know why you claim early in the video that its an unintentional nerf.Its pretty clear they want to intentionally nerf the ability to cloak all the way from your base, walk over to the enemy's base and then nuke. It seems as if they want you to be more tactical with your ghosts instead of queuing up 5 commands and being done with it. Whether or not its balanced is yet to be seen, but it will require terrans to pay more attention to their harassing ghost than they currently do.
You need Terrans to pay MORE attention??? MORE? Is it possible? The Multitasking Race is being promoted to Hyper-Mega-Tasking Race.T still need to create units while in battle at same time as maybe stimming,running,dropping,sieging,upgrading,kiting,spliting...LOL! Now we must control Ghosts even more!They are usually cloaked before a TvP BIO engagement to only snipe or EMP,asuming they probably die to Colossi or Zealots immediatly after doing their job nad this change do nothing but help them to gain energy and improve the TvP,but in TvZ and everything about Nukes its just over.EMP dont work on InFATstors because of nerfrange,nerfsnipe doesnt do anything to Zergs army and now Nuke is a onetime risky decision hoping of GL to not be discovered going to the enemys base or being spotted in that medivac that drops you.That last makes Nuke even more Useless bacause of helping the Z palyer to know exactly where the ghost is gonna Nuke.Its same as we make the Nuke point as big as Hive,but who cares?
Its not about balance or crying,its about a totally broking a unit/ability making it totally useless
I thought TL was held to a higher standard than a bunch of idiots flaming the OP. Sure...we aren't in beta yet but the change has already been officially proposed. So from a design perspective it can be critiqued. That said, the framing of this post was terrible.
On July 28 2012 05:38 Leyra wrote: To all the people saying Avilo is doing a great job of bringing this up to the community, you're ignoring the WAY he brings it up, lol. If he posted "Hey guys, I found this, what do you guys think?" it would be one thing, but he posts "omg guys, terran sucks so bad right now and we're getting fucking NERFED AGAIN! David Kim hates terran!11!11!!"
If you want to be taken seriously, learn how to present your points and arguments without sounding like you're whining about how shitty your race is.
edit: Not to mention, again, its not even beta. lol.
In your first paragraph you quoted (that means avilo actually said it) "omg guys, terran sucks so bad right now and we're getting fucking NERFED AGAIN! David Kim hates terran!11!11!!" I reread the OP and can't for the life of me find that quote.
Despite what the haters might think, this is not a "whine" but a potential (meaning possible) problem that avilo's stream viewers pointed out to him. It was important enough for him to take time from his hectic schedule to bring it to the community. If you are unable to contribute with logical thoughts and reasoning, then you might want to just not comment, period.
Again, it's a hyperbole. (several points in the OP are, in fact, balance whines, or "terran has been nerfed so much", etc.) My only point was if he wants to be taken seriously, and he's gonna get defensive when people come in and post "another balance whine from avilo!" type comments, he should leave balance out of it, and simply bring the discussion up in a neutral manner, or perhaps approaching it from a "design flaw" standpoint.
Lol @ this thread. Avilo, at least you should focus your whining efforts towards things that are actually relevant, not games that are not even beta yet.
On July 28 2012 05:25 avilo wrote: thanks for changing title, hopefully gets better discussion out of this thread -_-!
On July 28 2012 05:25 Plansix wrote: It is totally unclear if this will be a buff or a nerf. With a flat energy cost and timer on cloak, it could allow for a more controlled use of EMP in conjunction with cloak. Currently if you cloak a ghost, you run the risk of “running over” and into critical EMP energy. The change could avoid this and allow terrans to know exactly what they are getting when they click the cloak button. If the length of time the Ghost is cloaked is sufficient, this could be a way to make ghosts more useful and controlled.
To be clear:
- We don’t know how much long cloak will last for the energy cost. The flat cost could be more efficient and use less energy for the amount of time cloaked.
- We don’t know what the cool down will be. If it is 10 in-game second, it shouldn’t have a huge effect on the game.
- A flat cost allows terrans to know exactly how much it costs to use cloak and EMP together, which eliminates surprises.
It gives less control to the user, which is bad. Every good player can manage their cloak energy properly, to the point that when you do send out ghosts to nuke you literally pick the ones that already have 100 energy pooled up. There is no risk of "running over" it's up to the player to manage their units. The proposed change is a bad change in the ways i've analyzed, and in the terms you are speaking of it's just a simple dumbing down of the game.
I don’t agree and I have always felt that cloak should be a flat cost with a timer, rather than an energy drain. It is easier to balance and ability with a flat amount of time, rather than a flexible one that can build up over time. They can make the ability more powerful, because it is limited by time and a cool down. Without a cool down, the ability has to be limited in other ways, which I think has hurt cloak and made it less effective for the terran. If the cloaking cost provided double the amount of time cloaked per energy spent, it would allow for more snipes and EMPs.
Once again, it could be a nerf, or a buff. But I am all for a change to cloak to make it more useful across the board, rather than just for nuke harass.
Cloak being more useful might have more to do with how they changed snipe (see qxc's thread on that.) But I think it's a rather elegant design to have cloak continually depleted by energy, but then also have emp and snipe vying for that same energy. There's a lot more choice involved in how soon to cloak your ghosts. Too soon and you'll waste your energy that you might need for snipe or emp. Too late and they're dead. But if it turns out it was premature, you can uncloak and run away. Or if you miscalculated, you can keep them cloaked for longer and find a better opportunity. It presents a greater range of opportunities and decisions for the player.
But this new change there is only a minor conflict over energy resource. The actual number doesn't matter so much. But then it's set in stone. You have x amount of seconds/ minutes and then that's that. How long you keep your ghosts cloaked is no longer conflicts with your other ghost abilities. There's nothing that you as a gamer can do decision wise or control wise to change it. All that matters is that split second decision to cloak at just the right time and then clock starts ticking.
You are correct that it could be very bad and I do see issues with changing the ghost so they cannot “cloak walk” across the map. However, burrow is more useful to infestors than is more useful that cloak in my opinion. The ability does not eat into their energy pool and allows them to use more active abilities more often. It also does not require the zerg to keep track of how much energy they are using up by burrowing their infestors.
I think making the energy management for cloak a bit simpler may help take a bit off the terrans already full plate. With ghosts being produced at different times and all having different amounts of energy(infestors normally come out in bunches due to the zerg production, the same with HTs), a flat cost may be more “useful”.
Again, I am not sure it is a perfect or good change. But I can see merit and complexity in how it could be used. Knowing exactly what the ghost can do and for how long is something that seems valuable and useful. If the change makes cloak more powerful in addition to the extra limits, I could see it being change that makes ghosts better.
On July 28 2012 05:25 Dagan159 wrote: Wow avilo, from your idiotic rants on StoG, to this whine about something that is something I wouldnt even say is probable of making it into the game, I must say you really do take the cake for the whiney terrans. I play Terran, and yes the race has design flaws, but why dont you spend more time trying to work around them rather than complain over and over again. If the race is so broken how come Taeja just won MLG arena and Ryung made top 4 GSL? Stop trying to make things easier for yourself and start getting better by being better.
people have the right to give feed backs and even blizzard said they wanted more feed backs from the community. you dont have anything nice to say then leave the guy alone. and do u really wanna bring tournament stats into this?
There is feedback and then there is whine. Im afriad in avilo's case the latter is most prevelant. I brought up the fact that some terrans still have done moderately well to highlight the fact that it isnt impossible for Terran to win. Of course the community should be giving feedback to blizzard, but once the diction devolves into that of whine, the community stops benefitting. If avilo doesnt know how to give feedback about the game, he should focus on playing and getting better.
Welp, the community seems to be on the track of agreeing with the OP, ergo benifitting from the post.
On July 28 2012 05:01 LittleAtari wrote: Are we seriously complaining about balance in a game that isnt even out yet? You cant say that something is being nerfed in a different game, when you dont even know the state of the other races.
On July 28 2012 06:09 Leyra wrote: Again, it's a hyperbole. (several points in the OP are, in fact, balance whines, or "terran has been nerfed so much", etc.) My only point was if he wants to be taken seriously, and he's gonna get defensive when people come in and post "another balance whine from avilo!" type comments, he should leave balance out of it, and simply bring the discussion up in a neutral manner, or perhaps approaching it from a "design flaw" standpoint.
It's not hyperbole when it's a direct quote. :D and Terran has been nerfed to near oblivion. Avilo is not the only terran who has "commented" about the state of Terran (lategame especially). He's simply trying to nip it in the bud and hopefully get some feedback from intelligent people. Of course there will always be those who have nothing much to offer intellectually so they revert to name-calling.
Well i tried the more and actually the Cooldown is only 30 secs.The Ghost stay cloaked 30s,the cooldown starts in the moment he is cloaked,so when he became visible again,there is only 30s more to wait,and you recover 17 energy of the 25 spent on the spell.So,Cloak is now cheaper,but requires more micro and make impossible for the Ghost to cross the map cloaked of Nuke more than one time.Still being huge nerf for me...
On July 28 2012 06:09 Leyra wrote: Again, it's a hyperbole. (several points in the OP are, in fact, balance whines, or "terran has been nerfed so much", etc.) My only point was if he wants to be taken seriously, and he's gonna get defensive when people come in and post "another balance whine from avilo!" type comments, he should leave balance out of it, and simply bring the discussion up in a neutral manner, or perhaps approaching it from a "design flaw" standpoint.
It's not hyperbole when it's a direct quote. :D
Valid point, sir. Quotations were a bad choice , my mistake :D
On July 28 2012 06:09 Leyra wrote: Again, it's a hyperbole. (several points in the OP are, in fact, balance whines, or "terran has been nerfed so much", etc.) My only point was if he wants to be taken seriously, and he's gonna get defensive when people come in and post "another balance whine from avilo!" type comments, he should leave balance out of it, and simply bring the discussion up in a neutral manner, or perhaps approaching it from a "design flaw" standpoint.
It's not hyperbole when it's a direct quote. :D
Valid point, sir. Quotations were a bad choice , my mistake :D
On July 28 2012 05:01 LittleAtari wrote: Are we seriously complaining about balance in a game that isnt even out yet? You cant say that something is being nerfed in a different game, when you dont even know the state of the other races.
On July 28 2012 05:01 LittleAtari wrote: Are we seriously complaining about balance in a game that isnt even out yet? You cant say that something is being nerfed in a different game, when you dont even know the state of the other races.
This. /thread
You both did not read the thread at all. I even mention at some point in the OP/video that it affects TvT as well...it has nothing per se to do with the other races, it would be just as bad of a design/balance change for TvT lategame as well.
Despite this shitty thread, I have to say that this change would just destroy tvp lategame and would make the mass ghost/viking strategy absolutely useless.
On July 28 2012 05:25 Dagan159 wrote: Wow avilo, from your idiotic rants on StoG, to this whine about something that is something I wouldnt even say is probable of making it into the game, I must say you really do take the cake for the whiney terrans. I play Terran, and yes the race has design flaws, but why dont you spend more time trying to work around them rather than complain over and over again. If the race is so broken how come Taeja just won MLG arena and Ryung made top 4 GSL? Stop trying to make things easier for yourself and start getting better by being better.
people have the right to give feed backs and even blizzard said they wanted more feed backs from the community. you dont have anything nice to say then leave the guy alone. and do u really wanna bring tournament stats into this?
There is feedback and then there is whine. Im afriad in avilo's case the latter is most prevelant. I brought up the fact that some terrans still have done moderately well to highlight the fact that it isnt impossible for Terran to win. Of course the community should be giving feedback to blizzard, but once the diction devolves into that of whine, the community stops benefitting. If avilo doesnt know how to give feedback about the game, he should focus on playing and getting better.
it depend on how you take it imo. i dont take it as a whine. i take it as a feedback and knowledge. but like i said whatever ways he chose to present his stuffs doesnt matter imo, it has the same point.
On July 28 2012 05:39 ThirdDegree wrote: A concern you raise seems to be that you have to send your ghosts uncloaked across the map in order to nuke. What about cloaking and moving to a position, waiting the cooldown, and then nuking? It just requires some babysitting. Being able to just cloak and nuke at will with no control required is a pretty crappy design choice in itself.
a) It's incredibly risky to send a 200/100 unit out too far onto the map uncloaked for the purpose of nuking. But with the change, you would be forced to not cloak until you basically get within your opponent's vision which is bad.
b) As analyzed previously in the OP, if you are forced to move to a position and then cloak it means you have less opportunity to launch nukes with that ghost, as well as your ghost being found.
c) No one cloaks and nukes with zero control, 99% of the time you end up manually controlling your ghost.
a, b) I meant cloak and get relatively close to where you want to nuke, and try to hide the ghost to wait out the cool down, and then cloak and move in. Obviously it's risky to leave an uncloaked ghost out there and hide, but I'm just trying to work within the rules given to terrans.
On July 28 2012 05:25 Dagan159 wrote: Wow avilo, from your idiotic rants on StoG, to this whine about something that is something I wouldnt even say is probable of making it into the game, I must say you really do take the cake for the whiney terrans. I play Terran, and yes the race has design flaws, but why dont you spend more time trying to work around them rather than complain over and over again. If the race is so broken how come Taeja just won MLG arena and Ryung made top 4 GSL? Stop trying to make things easier for yourself and start getting better by being better.
people have the right to give feed backs and even blizzard said they wanted more feed backs from the community. you dont have anything nice to say then leave the guy alone. and do u really wanna bring tournament stats into this?
There is feedback and then there is whine. Im afriad in avilo's case the latter is most prevelant. I brought up the fact that some terrans still have done moderately well to highlight the fact that it isnt impossible for Terran to win. Of course the community should be giving feedback to blizzard, but once the diction devolves into that of whine, the community stops benefitting. If avilo doesnt know how to give feedback about the game, he should focus on playing and getting better.
Welp, the community seems to be on the track of agreeing with the OP, ergo benifitting from the post.
I don't feel that the community agrees with the OP at all. The majority of the posts are negative and do not like the fact that the discussion is about a proposed change talked about during a pre-beta press release. It is like complaining about the quality of food before you have even eaten it.
On July 28 2012 05:25 Dagan159 wrote: Wow avilo, from your idiotic rants on StoG, to this whine about something that is something I wouldnt even say is probable of making it into the game, I must say you really do take the cake for the whiney terrans. I play Terran, and yes the race has design flaws, but why dont you spend more time trying to work around them rather than complain over and over again. If the race is so broken how come Taeja just won MLG arena and Ryung made top 4 GSL? Stop trying to make things easier for yourself and start getting better by being better.
people have the right to give feed backs and even blizzard said they wanted more feed backs from the community. you dont have anything nice to say then leave the guy alone. and do u really wanna bring tournament stats into this?
There is feedback and then there is whine. Im afriad in avilo's case the latter is most prevelant. I brought up the fact that some terrans still have done moderately well to highlight the fact that it isnt impossible for Terran to win. Of course the community should be giving feedback to blizzard, but once the diction devolves into that of whine, the community stops benefitting. If avilo doesnt know how to give feedback about the game, he should focus on playing and getting better.
Welp, the community seems to be on the track of agreeing with the OP, ergo benifitting from the post.
I don't feel that the community agrees with the OP at all. The majority of the posts are negative and do not like the fact that the discussion is about a proposed change talked about during a pre-beta press release. It is like complaining about the quality of food before you have even eaten it.
I feel that this brings out a tons of discussion circulating the topic and that's beneficial.
terran finds and amazing style of play. then blizzard nerf it, we whine about it blizzard says we should figure it out terran figures it out, blizzard nerfs it
They should make cloak more like windwalk, give them a bonus move speed when they're cloaked. That would make this cooldown thing a lot more reasonable.
Infestors: can burrow, which disallows them use of 2 skills
Ghosts: can cloak, costs energy but still allows them use of all their skills
High Templar: Slow as shit, only protective skill they have is to permanently turn 2 of them into another, non-spellcasting unit.
I'd say looking at things on paper this seems like a decent change. Without the finalized stats we can't be certain, but I don't really see an issue with it. We don't know how long the cloak will be in the final release, we don't know how long the cooldown to use cloak again will be.
I think you should really just calm down, dude. You're way too stressed about something that hasn't even come to pass yet. Once the pros get into the beta, Blizzard will have a decent sampling of high level play to tweak the game on.
EDIT: Just so it's clear, I play zerg. I realize looking at it that my high templar sentence was a little bitchy.
On July 28 2012 05:25 Dagan159 wrote: Wow avilo, from your idiotic rants on StoG, to this whine about something that is something I wouldnt even say is probable of making it into the game, I must say you really do take the cake for the whiney terrans. I play Terran, and yes the race has design flaws, but why dont you spend more time trying to work around them rather than complain over and over again. If the race is so broken how come Taeja just won MLG arena and Ryung made top 4 GSL? Stop trying to make things easier for yourself and start getting better by being better.
people have the right to give feed backs and even blizzard said they wanted more feed backs from the community. you dont have anything nice to say then leave the guy alone. and do u really wanna bring tournament stats into this?
There is feedback and then there is whine. Im afriad in avilo's case the latter is most prevelant. I brought up the fact that some terrans still have done moderately well to highlight the fact that it isnt impossible for Terran to win. Of course the community should be giving feedback to blizzard, but once the diction devolves into that of whine, the community stops benefitting. If avilo doesnt know how to give feedback about the game, he should focus on playing and getting better.
it depend on how you take it imo. i dont take it as a whine. i take it as a feedback and knowledge. but like i said whatever ways he chose to present his stuffs doesnt matter imo, it has the same point.
The point may be the same, but the way in which it is presented does matter. These forums have standards. It is the reason TL is one of the best community sites on the web. It is the reason people can have debates rather than just mudslinging.
This is just a change for noobs, noobs HATE to turn on abilities which cost energy for fear of being wasteful, instead they don't use it at all. So this "one time cost" will make noobs feel safer and like they are not wasting something... Just like 2K in the bank when they are dying makes them safe and warm so does 200 energy on a ghost.
On July 28 2012 06:23 Noobity wrote: Infestors: can burrow, which disallows them use of 2 skills
Ghosts: can cloak, costs energy but still allows them use of all their skills
High Templar: Slow as shit, only protective skill they have is to permanently turn 2 of them into another, non-spellcasting unit.
I'd say looking at things on paper this seems like a decent change. Without the finalized stats we can't be certain, but I don't really see an issue with it. We don't know how long the cloak will be in the final release, we don't know how long the cooldown to use cloak again will be.
I think you should really just calm down, dude. You're way too stressed about something that hasn't even come to pass yet. Once the pros get into the beta, Blizzard will have a decent sampling of high level play to tweak the game on.
EDIT: Just so it's clear, I play zerg. I realize looking at it that my high templar sentence was a little bitchy.
There's a lot more to the comparison than what you said...
On July 28 2012 05:25 Dagan159 wrote: Wow avilo, from your idiotic rants on StoG, to this whine about something that is something I wouldnt even say is probable of making it into the game, I must say you really do take the cake for the whiney terrans. I play Terran, and yes the race has design flaws, but why dont you spend more time trying to work around them rather than complain over and over again. If the race is so broken how come Taeja just won MLG arena and Ryung made top 4 GSL? Stop trying to make things easier for yourself and start getting better by being better.
people have the right to give feed backs and even blizzard said they wanted more feed backs from the community. you dont have anything nice to say then leave the guy alone. and do u really wanna bring tournament stats into this?
There is feedback and then there is whine. Im afriad in avilo's case the latter is most prevelant. I brought up the fact that some terrans still have done moderately well to highlight the fact that it isnt impossible for Terran to win. Of course the community should be giving feedback to blizzard, but once the diction devolves into that of whine, the community stops benefitting. If avilo doesnt know how to give feedback about the game, he should focus on playing and getting better.
Welp, the community seems to be on the track of agreeing with the OP, ergo benifitting from the post.
I don't feel that the community agrees with the OP at all. The majority of the posts are negative and do not like the fact that the discussion is about a proposed change talked about during a pre-beta press release. It is like complaining about the quality of food before you have even eaten it.
I feel that this brings out a tons of discussion circulating the topic and that's beneficial.
Not if the discussion is based on bad, incorrect or misinformation. The title of the thread before the mod changed it showed that the OP was not very good. At best, the discussion will be vague and have little bearing on how the changes will affect the beta as a whole. At worse, it can spread misinformation or bias the community to be pro or against a change they have limited information on. This could hurt testing of the change if people think it is bad without cause. Much like claiming that food is horrible because it has a funny name.
On July 28 2012 05:25 Dagan159 wrote: Wow avilo, from your idiotic rants on StoG, to this whine about something that is something I wouldnt even say is probable of making it into the game, I must say you really do take the cake for the whiney terrans. I play Terran, and yes the race has design flaws, but why dont you spend more time trying to work around them rather than complain over and over again. If the race is so broken how come Taeja just won MLG arena and Ryung made top 4 GSL? Stop trying to make things easier for yourself and start getting better by being better.
people have the right to give feed backs and even blizzard said they wanted more feed backs from the community. you dont have anything nice to say then leave the guy alone. and do u really wanna bring tournament stats into this?
There is feedback and then there is whine. Im afriad in avilo's case the latter is most prevelant. I brought up the fact that some terrans still have done moderately well to highlight the fact that it isnt impossible for Terran to win. Of course the community should be giving feedback to blizzard, but once the diction devolves into that of whine, the community stops benefitting. If avilo doesnt know how to give feedback about the game, he should focus on playing and getting better.
Welp, the community seems to be on the track of agreeing with the OP, ergo benifitting from the post.
I don't feel that the community agrees with the OP at all. The majority of the posts are negative and do not like the fact that the discussion is about a proposed change talked about during a pre-beta press release. It is like complaining about the quality of food before you have even eaten it.
I feel that this brings out a tons of discussion circulating the topic and that's beneficial.
Not if the discussion is based on bad, incorrect or misinformation. The title of the thread before the mod changed it showed that the OP was not very good. At best, the discussion will be vague and have little bearing on how the changes will affect the beta as a whole. At worse, it can spread misinformation or bias the community to be pro or against a change they have limited information on. This could hurt testing of the change if people think it is bad without cause. Much like claiming that food is horrible because it has a funny name.
What a terrible analogy. It would be like claiming that food is horrible before you try it because you heard it a casserole with dog food and ketchup. Sounds horrible, but a few are waiting judgement until they actually try it.
On July 28 2012 05:25 Dagan159 wrote: Wow avilo, from your idiotic rants on StoG, to this whine about something that is something I wouldnt even say is probable of making it into the game, I must say you really do take the cake for the whiney terrans. I play Terran, and yes the race has design flaws, but why dont you spend more time trying to work around them rather than complain over and over again. If the race is so broken how come Taeja just won MLG arena and Ryung made top 4 GSL? Stop trying to make things easier for yourself and start getting better by being better.
people have the right to give feed backs and even blizzard said they wanted more feed backs from the community. you dont have anything nice to say then leave the guy alone. and do u really wanna bring tournament stats into this?
There is feedback and then there is whine. Im afriad in avilo's case the latter is most prevelant. I brought up the fact that some terrans still have done moderately well to highlight the fact that it isnt impossible for Terran to win. Of course the community should be giving feedback to blizzard, but once the diction devolves into that of whine, the community stops benefitting. If avilo doesnt know how to give feedback about the game, he should focus on playing and getting better.
it depend on how you take it imo. i dont take it as a whine. i take it as a feedback and knowledge. but like i said whatever ways he chose to present his stuffs doesnt matter imo, it has the same point.
The point may be the same, but the way in which it is presented does matter. These forums have standards. It is the reason TL is one of the best community sites on the web. It is the reason people can have debates rather than just mudslinging.
you want to have a good debate yet u said you "brought up the fact that some terrans still have done moderately well to highlight the fact that it isnt impossible for Terran to win." we r not taking about if its possible or not for terran to win. so your telling avilo to stop giving feedback about the game and go play the game? your talking about debating and forum standard yet you tell avilo who is giving feedback and infos to stop posting. he does have a point imo. i learned stuffs from his post so how is that not benefitting? this is my last reply. im done. avilo brought up a good point. people shudnt tell him to stop posting imo. thats rude imo. again i dont take it as a whine. i learned stuffs. you want him to be more professional because you think its a whine is up to you. im watching demuslim streaming. peace out
I don't know why people get worked up on numbers, it's something easily fixed it's underpowered, the game isn't even out or even had a beta, if you look at state of wol during the early beta stages it wasn't even close to balanced. Let the game be tested, patched up and played out because if you're looking for things that are unbalanced in an alpha, you're going to 100% find them.
For all we know they could of already reverted or fixed, wouldn't waste too much thought on it.
As people have said, and I will reitterate, we shouldn't speculate too heavily on a game that isn't even in beta atm..so many things will get changed within the first few months (or maybe even just one) that it's impossible to say what will and won't be balanced. also, I haven't seen a terran, pro or otherwise, use ghosts at all since the emp nerf although i work days so perhaps there's a few that stream early for cst and i don't see any of it, but none the less, it just adds to the skillcap of ghosts, as did reducing emp range which I think was blizzards goal, if a platinum/diamond league player can land the same emps as top top koreans without missing a step..there's a problem, at least in my opinion
Funny how the op doesn't mention other (more positive) effects of the change. Energy builds up while cloaking => faster cloaked emp. Not saying this will cancel other effects or something... My point is the op is very bad, because it is very one sided. If nuke harass is the entire story of avilo's ghosts, then i pity them.
And of course, i agree with people saying it's not even in beta: who knows how it will become..
On July 28 2012 05:25 Dagan159 wrote: Wow avilo, from your idiotic rants on StoG, to this whine about something that is something I wouldnt even say is probable of making it into the game, I must say you really do take the cake for the whiney terrans. I play Terran, and yes the race has design flaws, but why dont you spend more time trying to work around them rather than complain over and over again. If the race is so broken how come Taeja just won MLG arena and Ryung made top 4 GSL? Stop trying to make things easier for yourself and start getting better by being better.
people have the right to give feed backs and even blizzard said they wanted more feed backs from the community. you dont have anything nice to say then leave the guy alone. and do u really wanna bring tournament stats into this?
There is feedback and then there is whine. Im afriad in avilo's case the latter is most prevelant. I brought up the fact that some terrans still have done moderately well to highlight the fact that it isnt impossible for Terran to win. Of course the community should be giving feedback to blizzard, but once the diction devolves into that of whine, the community stops benefitting. If avilo doesnt know how to give feedback about the game, he should focus on playing and getting better.
it depend on how you take it imo. i dont take it as a whine. i take it as a feedback and knowledge. but like i said whatever ways he chose to present his stuffs doesnt matter imo, it has the same point.
The point may be the same, but the way in which it is presented does matter. These forums have standards. It is the reason TL is one of the best community sites on the web. It is the reason people can have debates rather than just mudslinging.
you want to have a good debate yet u said you "brought up the fact that some terrans still have done moderately well to highlight the fact that it isnt impossible for Terran to win." we r not taking about if its possible or not for terran to win. so your telling avilo to stop giving feedback about the game and go play the game? your talking about debating and forum standard yet you tell avilo who is giving feedback and infos to stop posting. he does have a point imo. i learned stuffs from his post so how is that not benefitting?
Yes I am telling avilo, that if he doesnt know how to format feedback properly, he should not do so because it detracts from the point he is attempting to make. If the entire OP had been: "Ghosts in HotS now cloak for a set duaration that does not cost energy /discuss." It would have been infinitely better. Notice how the majority of the posts in this thread have not been on topic. He did indeed bring up a point that everyone should be aware of, but his method and diction were extremely poor.
Yes, there are situations when the WoL implementation of Cloak will be superior to the HotS implementation, as the OP correctly notes. However, there are also situations in which the HotS implementation will be superior. Specifically, if you have a bunch of units that can cloak in a control group and they all have different amounts of energy remaining (nearly always the case), under the current implementation, they start to uncloak one by one, which makes cloaking completely useless; your enemy instantly knows the clump of units is there, and even if they don't have detection they can still snipe the ones that aren't cloaked. Even after the uncloaked ghosts have been screwing around in plain sight for a while, re-cloaking them is useless because of the 25 energy up-front cost of turning Cloak on, so if you want your stealth squad to operate properly your only option is to decloak everything, send the visible units to a corner of the map and wait for them to regain a sizeable chunk of energy back. With the HotS implementation, all you need is 25 energy on every unit for them to operate properly.
TL;DR: Using a new cloak mechanic like it was the old cloak mechanic will yield poor results.
On July 28 2012 05:10 avilo wrote: I'd request the mods when they read this to ban the idiots that are posting below TL standards with their "fuck off" or "QQ" or "whine" I'd urge people to actually read the thread. If thorzain, jinro, or anyone else notable posted this you would not write it off before reading it.
Do people want HOTS to be the best game possible? I certainly do, and yes, nothing is in stone, that does not mean it's not worth it to add in feedback/community feedback on things that will make the game better.
We would still write it off because it is pure speculation. I don't mind the change, I believe that David Kim knows a lot more about the game balance than I do, and I hope he manages to keep the game as well balanced as it is.
On July 28 2012 05:25 Dagan159 wrote: Wow avilo, from your idiotic rants on StoG, to this whine about something that is something I wouldnt even say is probable of making it into the game, I must say you really do take the cake for the whiney terrans. I play Terran, and yes the race has design flaws, but why dont you spend more time trying to work around them rather than complain over and over again. If the race is so broken how come Taeja just won MLG arena and Ryung made top 4 GSL? Stop trying to make things easier for yourself and start getting better by being better.
people have the right to give feed backs and even blizzard said they wanted more feed backs from the community. you dont have anything nice to say then leave the guy alone. and do u really wanna bring tournament stats into this?
There is feedback and then there is whine. Im afriad in avilo's case the latter is most prevelant. I brought up the fact that some terrans still have done moderately well to highlight the fact that it isnt impossible for Terran to win. Of course the community should be giving feedback to blizzard, but once the diction devolves into that of whine, the community stops benefitting. If avilo doesnt know how to give feedback about the game, he should focus on playing and getting better.
it depend on how you take it imo. i dont take it as a whine. i take it as a feedback and knowledge. but like i said whatever ways he chose to present his stuffs doesnt matter imo, it has the same point.
The point may be the same, but the way in which it is presented does matter. These forums have standards. It is the reason TL is one of the best community sites on the web. It is the reason people can have debates rather than just mudslinging.
you want to have a good debate yet u said you "brought up the fact that some terrans still have done moderately well to highlight the fact that it isnt impossible for Terran to win." we r not taking about if its possible or not for terran to win. so your telling avilo to stop giving feedback about the game and go play the game? your talking about debating and forum standard yet you tell avilo who is giving feedback and infos to stop posting. he does have a point imo. i learned stuffs from his post so how is that not benefitting?
Yes I am telling avilo, that if he doesnt know how to format feedback properly, he should not do so because it detracts from the point he is attempting to make. If the entire OP had been: "Ghosts in HotS now cloak for a set duaration that does not cost energy /discuss." It would have been infinitely better. Notice how the majority of the posts in this thread have not been on topic. He did indeed bring up a point that everyone should be aware of, but his method and diction were extremely poor.
this was your first comment before this.
"Wow avilo, from your idiotic rants on StoG, to this whine about something that is something I wouldnt even say is probable of making it into the game, I must say you really do take the cake for the whiney terrans. I play Terran, and yes the race has design flaws, but why dont you spend more time trying to work around them rather than complain over and over again. If the race is so broken how come Taeja just won MLG arena and Ryung made top 4 GSL? Stop trying to make things easier for yourself and start getting better by being better."
he never said anything about design flaws. you then u tell him to work around. which is even more off topic. u tell him to not complain, but its a feedback imo. you then talk about how the race is not broken and Taeja won MLG and stuffs. which is even off topic. then u tell him to stop posting and go play. him playing better or not is off topic. let say he whine and that his stuffs are off standard on teamliquid but what about yours? and bringing StoG into this is more off topic. the guy is talking about ghost. if you didnt post that at the start then there woudnt be any discussion since the post is mainly about ghost. just leave the guy alone and let him do his thing yo if you play Terran then at least show some love for the guy
Firstly, I agree that if this is true, it is potentially a bad nerf for Terran lategame. However, these are the problems I have with your post avilo.
1. You have not given us any sources for this and we are kind of just taking your word for all this.
2. Your YouTube video is far too long, and the vast majority of people probably won't even watch it all. 2-3 minutes should cover everything fine.
3. HOTS is not even out yet and, as such, these 'nerfs' you speak of may not even be in the final product and, if they are, may not be as bad as you think.
if you can find somewhere 'out of sight' of the enemy to refresh your cloak, then the hots ghost would last longer than a wol ghost. due to the 'regen while cloaked' allowing greater cloak time.
it totally depends on the final cloak duration as well, which is unspecified(?).
edit: wtf just watched the attached video - there's a cooldown on cloak? that's official? wtf is the point in that? make the ghost a terrible banshee and even more expensive... gg blizz.
On July 28 2012 05:25 Dagan159 wrote: Wow avilo, from your idiotic rants on StoG, to this whine about something that is something I wouldnt even say is probable of making it into the game, I must say you really do take the cake for the whiney terrans. I play Terran, and yes the race has design flaws, but why dont you spend more time trying to work around them rather than complain over and over again. If the race is so broken how come Taeja just won MLG arena and Ryung made top 4 GSL? Stop trying to make things easier for yourself and start getting better by being better.
people have the right to give feed backs and even blizzard said they wanted more feed backs from the community. you dont have anything nice to say then leave the guy alone. and do u really wanna bring tournament stats into this?
There is feedback and then there is whine. Im afriad in avilo's case the latter is most prevelant. I brought up the fact that some terrans still have done moderately well to highlight the fact that it isnt impossible for Terran to win. Of course the community should be giving feedback to blizzard, but once the diction devolves into that of whine, the community stops benefitting. If avilo doesnt know how to give feedback about the game, he should focus on playing and getting better.
it depend on how you take it imo. i dont take it as a whine. i take it as a feedback and knowledge. but like i said whatever ways he chose to present his stuffs doesnt matter imo, it has the same point.
The point may be the same, but the way in which it is presented does matter. These forums have standards. It is the reason TL is one of the best community sites on the web. It is the reason people can have debates rather than just mudslinging.
you want to have a good debate yet u said you "brought up the fact that some terrans still have done moderately well to highlight the fact that it isnt impossible for Terran to win." we r not taking about if its possible or not for terran to win. so your telling avilo to stop giving feedback about the game and go play the game? your talking about debating and forum standard yet you tell avilo who is giving feedback and infos to stop posting. he does have a point imo. i learned stuffs from his post so how is that not benefitting?
Yes I am telling avilo, that if he doesnt know how to format feedback properly, he should not do so because it detracts from the point he is attempting to make. If the entire OP had been: "Ghosts in HotS now cloak for a set duaration that does not cost energy /discuss." It would have been infinitely better. Notice how the majority of the posts in this thread have not been on topic. He did indeed bring up a point that everyone should be aware of, but his method and diction were extremely poor.
this was your first comment before this.
"Wow avilo, from your idiotic rants on StoG, to this whine about something that is something I wouldnt even say is probable of making it into the game, I must say you really do take the cake for the whiney terrans. I play Terran, and yes the race has design flaws, but why dont you spend more time trying to work around them rather than complain over and over again. If the race is so broken how come Taeja just won MLG arena and Ryung made top 4 GSL? Stop trying to make things easier for yourself and start getting better by being better."
he never said anything about design flaws. you then u tell him to work around. which is even more off topic. u tell him to not complain, but its a feedback imo. you then talk about how the race is not broken and Taeja won MLG and stuffs. which is even off topic. then u tell him to stop posting and go play. him playing better or not is off topic. let say he whine and that his stuffs are off standard on teamliquid but what about yours? and bringing StoG into this is more off topic. the guy is talking about ghost.
Avilo brought up the ghost change, and simultaneously undermined the entire conversation with his whiney undertones.
"We all know how Terran has been doing lately. Terran does not need another nerf on top of every other nerf that the race has been hit with. Once again, I'll state that this all may be an oversight on Browder/Blizzard/Kim's part, and they may have not considered that their change to the ghost cloaking would be a huge nerf to Terran lategame."
For a change that isnt even out, and when it does come out may be introduced to a entirely different enviorment (I can honeslty see widow mines drastically altering the meta game on their own), the whine is derailing this post from real discussion. Yes I got sucked into arguing that point, and thereby derailing the thread still further. Im sorry for that, but these whine threads and rants from avilo have been disgusting to me, and I hope he reads this and stops getting in the way of level headed people actually discussing the problems at hand.
They never once said this was supposed to be a buff, and it certainly wasn't unintentional. They stated clearly that they were going to make this change (not buff or nerf) quite a while ago. This will make it so Ghost probably can't walk all the way across the map while cloaked and this might be a bit worse for nuking, but a lot better for dropping emps/snipes since you can cloak all of your Ghosts without using energy.
On July 28 2012 05:25 avilo wrote: thanks for changing title, hopefully gets better discussion out of this thread -_-!
On July 28 2012 05:25 Plansix wrote: It is totally unclear if this will be a buff or a nerf. With a flat energy cost and timer on cloak, it could allow for a more controlled use of EMP in conjunction with cloak. Currently if you cloak a ghost, you run the risk of “running over” and into critical EMP energy. The change could avoid this and allow terrans to know exactly what they are getting when they click the cloak button. If the length of time the Ghost is cloaked is sufficient, this could be a way to make ghosts more useful and controlled.
To be clear:
- We don’t know how much long cloak will last for the energy cost. The flat cost could be more efficient and use less energy for the amount of time cloaked.
- We don’t know what the cool down will be. If it is 10 in-game second, it shouldn’t have a huge effect on the game.
- A flat cost allows terrans to know exactly how much it costs to use cloak and EMP together, which eliminates surprises.
It gives less control to the user, which is bad. Every good player can manage their cloak energy properly, to the point that when you do send out ghosts to nuke you literally pick the ones that already have 100 energy pooled up. There is no risk of "running over" it's up to the player to manage their units. The proposed change is a bad change in the ways i've analyzed, and in the terms you are speaking of it's just a simple dumbing down of the game.
I don’t agree and I have always felt that cloak should be a flat cost with a timer, rather than an energy drain. It is easier to balance and ability with a flat amount of time, rather than a flexible one that can build up over time. They can make the ability more powerful, because it is limited by time and a cool down. Without a cool down, the ability has to be limited in other ways, which I think has hurt cloak and made it less effective for the terran. If the cloaking cost provided double the amount of time cloaked per energy spent, it would allow for more snipes and EMPs.
Once again, it could be a nerf, or a buff. But I am all for a change to cloak to make it more useful across the board, rather than just for nuke harass.
Cloak being more useful might have more to do with how they changed snipe (see qxc's thread on that.) But I think it's a rather elegant design to have cloak continually depleted by energy, but then also have emp and snipe vying for that same energy. There's a lot more choice involved in how soon to cloak your ghosts. Too soon and you'll waste your energy that you might need for snipe or emp. Too late and they're dead. But if it turns out it was premature, you can uncloak and run away. Or if you miscalculated, you can keep them cloaked for longer and find a better opportunity. It presents a greater range of opportunities and decisions for the player.
But this new change there is only a minor conflict over energy resource. The actual number doesn't matter so much. But then it's set in stone. You have x amount of seconds/ minutes and then that's that. How long you keep your ghosts cloaked is no longer conflicts with your other ghost abilities. There's nothing that you as a gamer can do decision wise or control wise to change it. All that matters is that split second decision to cloak at just the right time and then clock starts ticking.
You are correct that it could be very bad and I do see issues with changing the ghost so they cannot “cloak walk” across the map. However, burrow is more useful to infestors than is more useful that cloak in my opinion. The ability does not eat into their energy pool and allows them to use more active abilities more often. It also does not require the zerg to keep track of how much energy they are using up by burrowing their infestors.
I think making the energy management for cloak a bit simpler may help take a bit off the terrans already full plate. With ghosts being produced at different times and all having different amounts of energy(infestors normally come out in bunches due to the zerg production, the same with HTs), a flat cost may be more “useful”.
Again, I am not sure it is a perfect or good change. But I can see merit and complexity in how it could be used. Knowing exactly what the ghost can do and for how long is something that seems valuable and useful. If the change makes cloak more powerful in addition to the extra limits, I could see it being change that makes ghosts better.
Infestors can remain burrowed indefinitely though. This change is like if Infestors unburrowed automatically in 30s after burrow so you had to burrow them right next to where you needed them and there was no burrowed retreating.
Holy shit guys... Blizzard proposes the Carrier is out of HotS -> there's a massive thread of discussion about this...
Blizzard proposes the Ghost's cloak is changing in a big way -> 90% of the reponses are cheap shots at the poster and nobody gives a shit...
Such a double-standard, it's not even funny. You guys should be ashamed.
@Avilo - Thank you for bringing up this change to light. I had forgotten about this and now realize its implications if it indeed does go through. I want to add that it'll very strongly change Ghosts in big fights because if you accidently cloak your Ghosts, they're unusable to snipe HTs/Infestors.
What I find extremely hypocritical about this change is that Dustin Browder in multiple interviews has stated that he doesn't want to make the game more complicated than it needs to be, and this change to the Ghost makes it more confusing to use to newcomers.
This is ridiculous. The ghost change is almost as dumb as giving a protoss unit 'energy' cloaking. Protoss cloak units should be passive. Or as dumb as the reaper basically getting shield regen. How about you just buff what made it special in the first place?
Bronze League Balance Band-aids do not bode well for the future of SC2.
On July 28 2012 07:26 SniXSniPe wrote: I don't even make ghosts anymore except in TvP, even then I don't utilize the nuking aspect as much as I use too.
same here i dont even make ghost in TvP. i try to outplay toss in the early and spread and drops like a madman, otherwise im done if it gets to the late game combo.
"This may be unintentional, they may think the'yre making the ghost better but they're not." "Don't need anymore Terran nerfs."
Let me ask you a question. Do you consider yourself a delegate for the Terran race? Do you think you're "objective analysis" or in other words YOUR opinions, outweigh that of Blizzard's or ACTUAL professional players.
You say "Terran doesn't need another nerf" and it implies that you've already tested HotS, Terran is at a disadvantage, they've already been nerfed numerous times, and that "another" nerf would be overly disadvantageous and damaging to Terran and the game as a whole.
You say "If thorzain, jinro or anyone else notable posted this you would not write it off before reading" which is probably true. But in no way should you be comparing yourself to either of them. It seems you complain at every balance change that isn't highly beneficial to Terran and lobby against nerfs to Terran or for buffs in favor You don't see these things from the players you mentioned. It's extremely hard to take someone serious who to me has shown nothing but a ridiculous sense of entitlement from the door.
The game hasn't even completed Alpha yet and you're campaigning for balance changes.
On July 28 2012 07:41 Ewic wrote: Holy shit guys... Blizzard proposes the Carrier is out of HotS -> there's a massive thread of discussion about this...
Blizzard proposes the Ghost's cloak is changing in a big way -> 90% of the reponses are cheap shots at the poster and nobody gives a shit...
Such a double-standard, it's not even funny. You guys should be ashamed.
@Avilo - Thank you for bringing up this change to light. I had forgotten about this and now realize its implications if it indeed does go through. I want to add that it'll very strongly change Ghosts in big fights because if you accidently cloak your Ghosts, they're unusable to snipe HTs/Infestors.
What I find extremely hypocritical about this change is that Dustin Browder in multiple interviews has stated that he doesn't want to make the game more complicated than it needs to be, and this change to the Ghost makes it more confusing to use to newcomers.
People take cheap shots at avilo because he is a narcissistic kid that doesn't contribute positive things to the community. People are QQing about this for a completely different reason. People are sad that the carrier is going because its an iconic, fun unit that has been around forever, and many people have positive memories of characters from fun maps from when they were young (personally). The ghost "discussion" is talking about balance in a game that hasn't even reached the first beta stages. Completely different things. Don't be a clown.
I dont understand this site sometimes. Someone can get warned over nothing, but when people post thoughtless rage and hate its not only allowed but encouraged. You guys are whining about his whining way more than he could even ever whine and it destroyed a good topic of discussion. Hate and derailing need stop being encouraged and allowed. Just close the thread and tell the OP to edit rather than allowing threads to be so pathetic.
We could all wait till beta, but whats the point in that. If you dont like the concept now why would that change on some arbitrary date. Its kinda up to us to give feedback to Blizzard on the direction the game is heading. The stage of development the game is in is irrelevant to feedback such as this.
If Blizzard decided it was going to add special abilities to each race like a certain other RTS would guys act like this and say wait till beta? Probably not cause you dont need a beta to tell you that that would suck and wouldnt be fun.
On July 28 2012 05:25 Dagan159 wrote: Wow avilo, from your idiotic rants on StoG, to this whine about something that is something I wouldnt even say is probable of making it into the game, I must say you really do take the cake for the whiney terrans. I play Terran, and yes the race has design flaws, but why dont you spend more time trying to work around them rather than complain over and over again. If the race is so broken how come Taeja just won MLG arena and Ryung made top 4 GSL? Stop trying to make things easier for yourself and start getting better by being better.
people have the right to give feed backs and even blizzard said they wanted more feed backs from the community. you dont have anything nice to say then leave the guy alone. and do u really wanna bring tournament stats into this?
There is feedback and then there is whine. Im afriad in avilo's case the latter is most prevelant. I brought up the fact that some terrans still have done moderately well to highlight the fact that it isnt impossible for Terran to win. Of course the community should be giving feedback to blizzard, but once the diction devolves into that of whine, the community stops benefitting. If avilo doesnt know how to give feedback about the game, he should focus on playing and getting better.
it depend on how you take it imo. i dont take it as a whine. i take it as a feedback and knowledge. but like i said whatever ways he chose to present his stuffs doesnt matter imo, it has the same point.
The point may be the same, but the way in which it is presented does matter. These forums have standards. It is the reason TL is one of the best community sites on the web. It is the reason people can have debates rather than just mudslinging.
you want to have a good debate yet u said you "brought up the fact that some terrans still have done moderately well to highlight the fact that it isnt impossible for Terran to win." we r not taking about if its possible or not for terran to win. so your telling avilo to stop giving feedback about the game and go play the game? your talking about debating and forum standard yet you tell avilo who is giving feedback and infos to stop posting. he does have a point imo. i learned stuffs from his post so how is that not benefitting?
Yes I am telling avilo, that if he doesnt know how to format feedback properly, he should not do so because it detracts from the point he is attempting to make. If the entire OP had been: "Ghosts in HotS now cloak for a set duaration that does not cost energy /discuss." It would have been infinitely better. Notice how the majority of the posts in this thread have not been on topic. He did indeed bring up a point that everyone should be aware of, but his method and diction were extremely poor.
this was your first comment before this.
"Wow avilo, from your idiotic rants on StoG, to this whine about something that is something I wouldnt even say is probable of making it into the game, I must say you really do take the cake for the whiney terrans. I play Terran, and yes the race has design flaws, but why dont you spend more time trying to work around them rather than complain over and over again. If the race is so broken how come Taeja just won MLG arena and Ryung made top 4 GSL? Stop trying to make things easier for yourself and start getting better by being better."
he never said anything about design flaws. you then u tell him to work around. which is even more off topic. u tell him to not complain, but its a feedback imo. you then talk about how the race is not broken and Taeja won MLG and stuffs. which is even off topic. then u tell him to stop posting and go play. him playing better or not is off topic. let say he whine and that his stuffs are off standard on teamliquid but what about yours? and bringing StoG into this is more off topic. the guy is talking about ghost.
Avilo brought up the ghost change, and simultaneously undermined the entire conversation with his whiney undertones.
"We all know how Terran has been doing lately. Terran does not need another nerf on top of every other nerf that the race has been hit with. Once again, I'll state that this all may be an oversight on Browder/Blizzard/Kim's part, and they may have not considered that their change to the ghost cloaking would be a huge nerf to Terran lategame."
For a change that isnt even out, and when it does come out may be introduced to a entirely different enviorment (I can honeslty see widow mines drastically altering the meta game on their own), the whine is derailing this post from real discussion. Yes I got sucked into arguing that point, and thereby derailing the thread still further. Im sorry for that, but these whine threads and rants from avilo have been disgusting to me, and I hope he reads this and stops getting in the way of level headed people actually discussing the problems at hand.
now we have a discussion xD. yeah i agree his tone might sound a bit negative and stuffs but hes right. this change to ghost cloaking does effects terran with the nuking in the late game. terran has been nerfed a bunch in the past i a terran is mad too. but its always good to have someone speaking for terran in which ever way idc. but i think its best to speak before the change is out otherwise they woudnt revert and just tell terrans to play better. like how its always been
Avilo nothing you say has any relevance in my eyes, every race is getting changes in HotS, the zerg units are likely the most useless and will have less impact, while the hydra and ultra buffs are nice, the other 2 aren't v good. ALL you ever do, since the beta is complain about stuff you don't even understand, its pathetic, when terran was broken you and lzgamer were the only 2 terrans to deny it. these days ALL you do is rage and qq about zerg and protoss. I don't know what race you played in the game you played before, but if i had to guess it was the worst race. Reality is avilo, you need to look into your flaws, your mechanics aren't actually terrible, you're just really bad and your decision making is not very good, watching your stream is painful on the brain and you need to realize that its you who sucks, not the game. the sooner, the better.
Note: I don't think of myself as levels above avilo or anything in that regard, even though i very rarely lose to him, and not cause zerg is op or blabla, i mean i rarely lose to him for the last 2 years. But the harsh reality here is every race has its strengths and weaknesses and if we're not looking into our own mistakes and blaming blizzard about everything, we're never gonna improve. Avilo, learn to type 'gg' after gettin pwnd and learn to acknowledge your mistakes instead of blaming 'browder' for your sucking.
On July 28 2012 08:04 ROOTCatZ wrote: Avilo nothing you say has any relevance in my eyes, every race is getting changes in HotS, the zerg units are likely the most useless and will have less impact, while the hydra and ultra buffs are nice, the other 2 aren't v good. ALL you ever do, since the beta is complain about stuff you don't even understand, its pathetic, when terran was broken you and lzgamer were the only 2 terrans to deny it. these days ALL you do is rage and qq about zerg and protoss. I don't know what race you played in the game you played before, but if i had to guess it was the worst race. Reality is avilo, you need to look into your flaws, your mechanics aren't actually terrible, you're just really bad and your decision making is not very good, watching your stream is painful on the brain and you need to realize that its you who sucks, not the game. the sooner, the better.
Note: I don't think of myself as levels above avilo or anything in that regard, even though i very rarely lose to him, and not cause zerg is op or blabla, i mean i rarely lose to him for the last 2 years. But the harsh reality here is every race has its strengths and weaknesses and if we're not looking into our own mistakes and blaming blizzard about everything, we're never gonna improve. Avilo, learn to type 'gg' after gettin pwnd and learn to acknowledge your mistakes instead of blaming 'browder' for your sucking.
What the fuck? I expect better from you catz. Did you just come here to brag or something? This thread has nothing to do with "QQing," let alone you or me personally, why you would come here and bash me is beyond me. This thread has to do with a terrible design change. If they changed the infestor to be similar with a cool down on burrow...it would be just as bad of a design decision, and an unnecessary change.
Or did you just post in this thread to try to discredit me/give credibility to the 1 liners in this thread? Very low. You literally said nothing about the topic at hand anywhere in your post lmao.
Take your mindless bashing to reddit where it belongs, stop trying to derail this this thread is not about me, it's about what blizzard has said they are considering doing to the ghost.
p.s. I thought it was cute yesterday that after my 3 hr stream session of the HOTS beta in the morning you had obviously been watching my stream and then got the idea to stream HOTS beta custom games from my stream I was flattered.
On July 28 2012 08:04 ROOTCatZ wrote: Avilo nothing you say has any relevance in my eyes, every race is getting changes in HotS, the zerg units are likely the most useless and will have less impact, while the hydra and ultra buffs are nice, the other 2 aren't v good. ALL you ever do, since the beta is complain about stuff you don't even understand, its pathetic, when terran was broken you and lzgamer were the only 2 terrans to deny it. these days ALL you do is rage and qq about zerg and protoss. I don't know what race you played in the game you played before, but if i had to guess it was the worst race. Reality is avilo, you need to look into your flaws, your mechanics aren't actually terrible, you're just really bad and your decision making is not very good, watching your stream is painful on the brain and you need to realize that its you who sucks, not the game. the sooner, the better.
Note: I don't think of myself as levels above avilo or anything in that regard, even though i very rarely lose to him, and not cause zerg is op or blabla, i mean i rarely lose to him for the last 2 years. But the harsh reality here is every race has its strengths and weaknesses and if we're not looking into our own mistakes and blaming blizzard about everything, we're never gonna improve. Avilo, learn to type 'gg' after gettin pwnd and learn to acknowledge your mistakes instead of blaming 'browder' for your sucking.
What the fuck? I expect better from you catz. Did you just come here to brag or something? This thread has nothing to do with "QQing," let alone you or me personally, why you would come here and bash me is beyond me. This thread has to do with a terrible design change. If they changed the infestor to be similar with a cool down on burrow...it would be just as bad of a design decision, and an unnecessary change.
Or did you just post in this thread to try to discredit me/give credibility to the 1 liners in this thread? Very low. You literally said nothing about the topic at hand anywhere in your post lmao.
Take your mindless bashing to reddit where it belongs.
anyone who has watched your stream for over 10 minutes knows, you're qqing about a game that's not even out or remotely balanced, so why don't you instead give it some time, the way I see it there are no nerfs, it is a new game, heart of the swarm so get used to -CHANGES- it'll take a few months for it to get anywhere close to balanced. and reddit is awesome lmao!
ps: i wasn't watching your stream in the morning don't flatter yourself, I played the hots ums cause TT1 asked me to. Only time I open your stream is when I feel like watching someone cry or I feel like my day has been too good so far and I need a little bit of shit in it to balance shit out
I don't get why there can't be discussion about the proposed change. I mean sure the game's not out and the thread's a bit whiny, but at least talking about it will give Blizzard some feedback regarding it. It worked for the Shredder and the Replicant.
On July 28 2012 08:04 ROOTCatZ wrote: Avilo nothing you say has any relevance in my eyes, every race is getting changes in HotS, the zerg units are likely the most useless and will have less impact, while the hydra and ultra buffs are nice, the other 2 aren't v good. ALL you ever do, since the beta is complain about stuff you don't even understand, its pathetic, when terran was broken you and lzgamer were the only 2 terrans to deny it. these days ALL you do is rage and qq about zerg and protoss. I don't know what race you played in the game you played before, but if i had to guess it was the worst race. Reality is avilo, you need to look into your flaws, your mechanics aren't actually terrible, you're just really bad and your decision making is not very good, watching your stream is painful on the brain and you need to realize that its you who sucks, not the game. the sooner, the better.
Note: I don't think of myself as levels above avilo or anything in that regard, even though i very rarely lose to him, and not cause zerg is op or blabla, i mean i rarely lose to him for the last 2 years. But the harsh reality here is every race has its strengths and weaknesses and if we're not looking into our own mistakes and blaming blizzard about everything, we're never gonna improve. Avilo, learn to type 'gg' after gettin pwnd and learn to acknowledge your mistakes instead of blaming 'browder' for your sucking.
LOL? I agree with all of your critiques about Avilo, but Zerg gets the worst from HotS? Are you kidding me? Maybe the Swarm Host, but the Viper is amazing.
On July 28 2012 08:04 ROOTCatZ wrote: Avilo nothing you say has any relevance in my eyes, every race is getting changes in HotS, the zerg units are likely the most useless and will have less impact, while the hydra and ultra buffs are nice, the other 2 aren't v good. ALL you ever do, since the beta is complain about stuff you don't even understand, its pathetic, when terran was broken you and lzgamer were the only 2 terrans to deny it. these days ALL you do is rage and qq about zerg and protoss. I don't know what race you played in the game you played before, but if i had to guess it was the worst race. Reality is avilo, you need to look into your flaws, your mechanics aren't actually terrible, you're just really bad and your decision making is not very good, watching your stream is painful on the brain and you need to realize that its you who sucks, not the game. the sooner, the better.
Note: I don't think of myself as levels above avilo or anything in that regard, even though i very rarely lose to him, and not cause zerg is op or blabla, i mean i rarely lose to him for the last 2 years. But the harsh reality here is every race has its strengths and weaknesses and if we're not looking into our own mistakes and blaming blizzard about everything, we're never gonna improve. Avilo, learn to type 'gg' after gettin pwnd and learn to acknowledge your mistakes instead of blaming 'browder' for your sucking.
What the fuck? I expect better from you catz. Did you just come here to brag or something? This thread has nothing to do with "QQing," let alone you or me personally, why you would come here and bash me is beyond me. This thread has to do with a terrible design change. If they changed the infestor to be similar with a cool down on burrow...it would be just as bad of a design decision, and an unnecessary change.
Or did you just post in this thread to try to discredit me/give credibility to the 1 liners in this thread? Very low. You literally said nothing about the topic at hand anywhere in your post lmao.
Take your mindless bashing to reddit where it belongs.
anyone who has watched your stream for over 10 minutes knows, you're qqing about a game that's not even out or remotely balanced, so why don't you instead give it some time, the way I see it there are no nerfs, it is a new game, heart of the swarm so get used to -CHANGES- it'll take a few months for it to get anywhere close to balanced. and reddit is awesome lmao!
Try commenting on the actual thread content here in the OP, instead of on me personally or starting up the bandwagon against me. Thanks.
On July 28 2012 08:18 pdd wrote: I don't get why there can't be discussion about the proposed change. I mean sure the game's not out and the thread's a bit whiny, but at least talking about it will give Blizzard some feedback regarding it. It worked for the Shredder and the Replicant.
its not productive to discuss unit stats that havent been tested (i.e., because HOTS beta hasn't been released) and havent even been decided. everyone is just making statements based on uninformed opinions.
this thread is getting interesting though with catz involving himself though.
It's amazing how many people can ignore the issue at hand just because of who posted this.
Yes this is a problem, it makes ghosts even worse (which I didn't think was possible). Yes we need to say something about it because that's how blizzard gets feedback. But they're probably not going to change anything until beta is out.
I don't get it. HOTS is not even in beta state and no one can possibly comment about balance. Z and P have even more drastic changes in their fundamental design, compared to things like vipers or swarm hosts the ghost cloak change is just a small footnote. Even though Avilo has shown in the recent State of the Game episode that he is unable to have an objective discussion on balance issues, this pointless thread lives on. Because he is some sort of semi-pro I guess?!
On July 28 2012 08:04 ROOTCatZ wrote: Avilo nothing you say has any relevance in my eyes, every race is getting changes in HotS, the zerg units are likely the most useless and will have less impact, while the hydra and ultra buffs are nice, the other 2 aren't v good. ALL you ever do, since the beta is complain about stuff you don't even understand, its pathetic, when terran was broken you and lzgamer were the only 2 terrans to deny it. these days ALL you do is rage and qq about zerg and protoss. I don't know what race you played in the game you played before, but if i had to guess it was the worst race. Reality is avilo, you need to look into your flaws, your mechanics aren't actually terrible, you're just really bad and your decision making is not very good, watching your stream is painful on the brain and you need to realize that its you who sucks, not the game. the sooner, the better.
Note: I don't think of myself as levels above avilo or anything in that regard, even though i very rarely lose to him, and not cause zerg is op or blabla, i mean i rarely lose to him for the last 2 years. But the harsh reality here is every race has its strengths and weaknesses and if we're not looking into our own mistakes and blaming blizzard about everything, we're never gonna improve. Avilo, learn to type 'gg' after gettin pwnd and learn to acknowledge your mistakes instead of blaming 'browder' for your sucking.
What the fuck? I expect better from you catz. Did you just come here to brag or something? This thread has nothing to do with "QQing," let alone you or me personally, why you would come here and bash me is beyond me. This thread has to do with a terrible design change. If they changed the infestor to be similar with a cool down on burrow...it would be just as bad of a design decision, and an unnecessary change.
Or did you just post in this thread to try to discredit me/give credibility to the 1 liners in this thread? Very low. You literally said nothing about the topic at hand anywhere in your post lmao.
Take your mindless bashing to reddit where it belongs.
anyone who has watched your stream for over 10 minutes knows, you're qqing about a game that's not even out or remotely balanced, so why don't you instead give it some time, the way I see it there are no nerfs, it is a new game, heart of the swarm so get used to -CHANGES- it'll take a few months for it to get anywhere close to balanced. and reddit is awesome lmao!
Try commenting on the actual thread content here in the OP, instead of on me personally or starting up the bandwagon against me. Thanks.
I think that the idea might be that your OP is QQ... I think someone might be missing this! O_O
On July 28 2012 08:23 SolidMoose wrote: It's amazing how many people can ignore the issue at hand just because of who posted this.
Yes this is a problem, it makes ghosts even worse (which I didn't think was possible). Yes we need to say something about it because that's how blizzard gets feedback. But they're probably not going to change anything until beta is out.
(which I didn't think was possible) I am going to rename myself the QQ police!
I'm definitely not comfortable with the change, specifically with the cooldown. If it were a flat energy charge that you had to "remember" to refresh every 30s, that would be fine. Implementing it with a cooldown is a rather indirect way of making cloak ultimately useless.
On July 28 2012 08:04 ROOTCatZ wrote: Avilo nothing you say has any relevance in my eyes, every race is getting changes in HotS, the zerg units are likely the most useless and will have less impact, while the hydra and ultra buffs are nice, the other 2 aren't v good. ALL you ever do, since the beta is complain about stuff you don't even understand, its pathetic, when terran was broken you and lzgamer were the only 2 terrans to deny it. these days ALL you do is rage and qq about zerg and protoss. I don't know what race you played in the game you played before, but if i had to guess it was the worst race. Reality is avilo, you need to look into your flaws, your mechanics aren't actually terrible, you're just really bad and your decision making is not very good, watching your stream is painful on the brain and you need to realize that its you who sucks, not the game. the sooner, the better.
Note: I don't think of myself as levels above avilo or anything in that regard, even though i very rarely lose to him, and not cause zerg is op or blabla, i mean i rarely lose to him for the last 2 years. But the harsh reality here is every race has its strengths and weaknesses and if we're not looking into our own mistakes and blaming blizzard about everything, we're never gonna improve. Avilo, learn to type 'gg' after gettin pwnd and learn to acknowledge your mistakes instead of blaming 'browder' for your sucking.
What the fuck? I expect better from you catz. Did you just come here to brag or something? This thread has nothing to do with "QQing," let alone you or me personally, why you would come here and bash me is beyond me. This thread has to do with a terrible design change. If they changed the infestor to be similar with a cool down on burrow...it would be just as bad of a design decision, and an unnecessary change.
Or did you just post in this thread to try to discredit me/give credibility to the 1 liners in this thread? Very low. You literally said nothing about the topic at hand anywhere in your post lmao.
Take your mindless bashing to reddit where it belongs.
anyone who has watched your stream for over 10 minutes knows, you're qqing about a game that's not even out or remotely balanced, so why don't you instead give it some time, the way I see it there are no nerfs, it is a new game, heart of the swarm so get used to -CHANGES- it'll take a few months for it to get anywhere close to balanced. and reddit is awesome lmao!
Try commenting on the actual thread content here in the OP, instead of on me personally or starting up the bandwagon against me. Thanks.
I haven't attacked you at all but I will say is.. What if they change the duration to 45 seconds for Cloak with no energy usage plus a 15 second cooldown when out of cloak. Now if they want this to be a buff they can change things at a whim. The reason why I am writing this off is because alpha Starcraft II was totally different in how it came out. With the new change how would you make it be a buff but not making it overpowered? I understand your scared of the change but lets see if it even makes beta. They have people testing it and will have a beta .
On July 28 2012 08:28 Havik_ wrote: I don't really see this as a nerf. If anything it could be considered a buff.
This is just wrong. Ghostcloak plays a huge role in tvp lategame, and if he just engages you then backs off and engages again and your cloak is on cooldown you will most likely lose all your expensive ghosts.
On July 28 2012 08:04 ROOTCatZ wrote: Reality is avilo, you need to look into your flaws, your mechanics aren't actually terrible, you're just really bad and your decision making is not very good, watching your stream is painful on the brain and you need to realize that its you who sucks, not the game. the sooner, the better.
The skill level of any individual player has no bearing on whether this, or any change to HOTS is good or bad. Avilo's skill level is irrelevant.
I also feel that these comments belittling others are uncalled for; I sure hope they stop.
I suggest we please discuss the topic at hand and not individuals.
On Topic: I suggest that the ghost simply is able to toggle the old way and the new way of cloaking. That way if a player wishes, they can cloak the old way. The bad thing about this is that it could be too complicated.
C'mon, I hope Blizz does not push through with this. It is like they are saying that nuke harass can even be done by low level players. First of all great multitasking and positioning is required for this to work. considering the danger of losing your ghost and nuke.
Oh, I just love how all these idra/incontrol fanboys have come out -- not to participate in conversation but to bash avilo -- hoping that it will score them cool points. It's awesome how stupid some people are. Yeah, you guys are cool. Hi5!
On July 28 2012 07:04 wcr.4fun wrote: Which is terrible...
Zerg auto win late game in zvt?
Toss autowin in late game zvp?
Asymmetrical balance is terrible!
User was warned for this post
I'm trying to figure out why a warning was given for this post but not the mountain of flames that appear in this thread.
PS: Seems you pissed off the staff avilo.
lol, thats exactly the kind of thing i was referring to in my last post. Im honestly confused. A comment on Blizzards balance philosophy gets warned but flames and personal attacks are allowed and therefor encouraged to continue. That comment is 10x better than alot of posts in here. Yeah, thats sad. It wasnt balance whine at all, he mentioned all 3 races. He was obviously pointing out the fact thats its silly for a race to have such a large advantage at one point in the game. C'mon...
I think the motivation behind this change was actually trying to bring the ghost back into relevance. The snipe and EMP changes may have been necessary from a balance perspective, but they made the ghost a much less cool and interesting unit, so that it still has its uses that people have found, but its unlikely to find a lot more interesting uses in the future. And I think Blizzard would like to help fix that, without completely redoing the unit like they did from BW to SC2.
So when I first heard about the change I wasn't too upset. As I understood it, the ghost cloak would be less like traditional Terran cloak and more like stim, where it's a brief ability that lasts, say, for the length of a battle, but energy still recharges in that time. This would give ghosts more overall energy, while making cloak about as useful as it was before.
But with a cooldown on cloak after the time runs out, that becomes very different. Now cloak is limited to n-second periods, which means ghosts can't rely on cloak for safety for longer than that period. Since any harassment mission presumably takes longer than that n-second period of time, the ghost will be vulnerable in the cooldown period, and any decent player should be able to notice and kill the ghost during that time. This could be solved by making that n-second period really long, but that solution seems unnecessary and convoluted, since we've artificially stuck in a cooldown that's causing the problem, and the cooldown doesn't really need to be there.
Proposed solution: Cloak costs 25 energy, and renders the ghost invisible for, let's say, 30 seconds (in which time the ghost regenerates ~17 energy). At the end of that 30 seconds, the ghost automatically becomes visible again unless the Terran cloaks it again immediately, which will cost another 25 energy. This allows for cloaked ghost harassment but forces the Terran to keep a vigilant eye on his special ops assassins. It also reduces the cost of cloak relative to WoL, which helps make the ghost a more strategically interesting unit.
Tl;dr: Keep the change, but with no cooldown on cloak. Ghosts become cooler, better, and require more skill to use.
On July 28 2012 08:04 ROOTCatZ wrote: Avilo nothing you say has any relevance in my eyes, every race is getting changes in HotS, the zerg units are likely the most useless and will have less impact, while the hydra and ultra buffs are nice, the other 2 aren't v good. ALL you ever do, since the beta is complain about stuff you don't even understand, its pathetic, when terran was broken you and lzgamer were the only 2 terrans to deny it. these days ALL you do is rage and qq about zerg and protoss. I don't know what race you played in the game you played before, but if i had to guess it was the worst race. Reality is avilo, you need to look into your flaws, your mechanics aren't actually terrible, you're just really bad and your decision making is not very good, watching your stream is painful on the brain and you need to realize that its you who sucks, not the game. the sooner, the better.
Note: I don't think of myself as levels above avilo or anything in that regard, even though i very rarely lose to him, and not cause zerg is op or blabla, i mean i rarely lose to him for the last 2 years. But the harsh reality here is every race has its strengths and weaknesses and if we're not looking into our own mistakes and blaming blizzard about everything, we're never gonna improve. Avilo, learn to type 'gg' after gettin pwnd and learn to acknowledge your mistakes instead of blaming 'browder' for your sucking.
p.s. I thought it was cute yesterday that after my 3 hr stream session of the HOTS beta in the morning you had obviously been watching my stream and then got the idea to stream HOTS beta custom games from my stream I was flattered.
You need to take a look in the mirror and realize how sick you are. To conclude that Catz was playing HOTS because you had been playing it and he saw your steam and noticed your success so he followed you is both neurotic and narcissistic. You just aren't that important.
From the moment I first read your name in a thread you have been constantly campaigning for something. If you truly cared about the game you would be drawing conclusions for all of the races, all of the changes, and among all of the massive changes coming from HOTS the most pressing issue would not be some left field change to the ghost that is months off from even having any effect. Your concern is always Avilo related.
If you dont mention these things NOW there is a chance they will go past the beta. There's a reason we got medivac energy upgrade, and a few more upgrades that offer nothing to the game. Just junk which made through the beta because nobody cared. Only this time it affects balance quite a bit.
Not to mention the reapers that owned zerg like a joke before they were nerfed...
I don’t know man, this op just seems so off, I decided to give it the benefit of the doubt and read through the whole thing (I watched about 1 minute of the video but drew the line there) but my opinion was still the same as when I read the title (I rolled my eyes and sighed whilst slowly shaking my head).
Firstly this isn’t new info, this has been known since the original HoTS press release at Blizzcon 2011. Next, nuke harass is so incredibly rare (like almost Battle Cruiser rare) yet you talk about it as if that’s actually the linchpin of Terran strategy. The last pro game I remember using nuke harass was Namma (think it was Namma) vs Ret at Homestory Cup V.
Also it’s been said a billion times before but this is still in ALPHA.I admit it is kind of fun to speculate on balance of new units and how they’ll affect the game, but you take yourself so damn seriously “I am posting this here to alert the community and blizzard developers” seriously dude? I guess I’m just glad you didn’t make a similar thread about the replicant.
The sad thing is, Avilo is right from a design perspective, but this thread is a tragic case of the balance whiner who cried balance. Nobody will listen to him, and it's turned into nothing but Avilo bashing.
Here's one more vote for this thread getting closed. For all you people declaring this shit is worth talking about and blizzard needs to know about it, go bring it up on the Bnet forums and see if blizzard doesn't just close it.
OT: They should just remove the ghost entirely if they're going to go through with this change I guess judging from all the whining, and I wouldn't complain one bit.
Seems like a niche play is being touted as standard in high level games and causing a huge change when in reality this will affect maybe 5% of real games if this makes it all the way through to release without being adjusted
Yes, this is a bad mechanic. When you've got cloak on a cooldown, you're nuking all the decision making that falls to the player and all the cool things a player can pull off.
It's nonsensical to phrase this as "terran players just need to get better" because the same can be said of zergs or protosses - why don't they just be better and manage their detection so as not to get caught with their pants down. In fact, this is the very thing that tells me the design is fine as it is. The trick to wreaking havoc with your ghosts or successfully defending your opponent's ghosts is based on who plays better, not some arbitrary cooldown.
I still don't see why a mechanic that's worked for 14 years in Starcraft 1/2 suddenly needs to be changed. I guess Blizzard had it's fun with emp and snipe so they though they'd take a gander at cloak.
On July 28 2012 08:04 ROOTCatZ wrote: Avilo nothing you say has any relevance in my eyes, every race is getting changes in HotS, the zerg units are likely the most useless and will have less impact, while the hydra and ultra buffs are nice, the other 2 aren't v good. ALL you ever do, since the beta is complain about stuff you don't even understand, its pathetic, when terran was broken you and lzgamer were the only 2 terrans to deny it. these days ALL you do is rage and qq about zerg and protoss. I don't know what race you played in the game you played before, but if i had to guess it was the worst race. Reality is avilo, you need to look into your flaws, your mechanics aren't actually terrible, you're just really bad and your decision making is not very good, watching your stream is painful on the brain and you need to realize that its you who sucks, not the game. the sooner, the better.
Note: I don't think of myself as levels above avilo or anything in that regard, even though i very rarely lose to him, and not cause zerg is op or blabla, i mean i rarely lose to him for the last 2 years. But the harsh reality here is every race has its strengths and weaknesses and if we're not looking into our own mistakes and blaming blizzard about everything, we're never gonna improve. Avilo, learn to type 'gg' after gettin pwnd and learn to acknowledge your mistakes instead of blaming 'browder' for your sucking.
This is bullshit.
CAtz, I watch your stream and I watch Avilo's stream because I enjoy your unique play styles not because you are code S quality. This proposed change kicks the mass nuke harass hard to the balls; it's not viable in this form; you come in here and just insult Avilo and his play and totally ignore everything he said when he made it abundantly clear this was a discussion about the proposed change, nothing more, nothing less.
Maybe you're just having a bad day. (Maybe your account was hacked by Idra?) Either way, anyone else would have been banned for such an ad-hominem attack. He never claimed he was as good as MVP. He didn't discuss the current state of the game.
And more importantly, he wasn't a total dick to you or anyone else. I have heard him speak positively of you on his stream on more than one occasion. I thought you were a much nicer person than that.
The Ghost’s Cloak ability has also been modified -- it will no longer be a toggled effect. Instead, there will be a one-time energy cost to activate Cloak for a specific time duration. Energy regeneration will continue while cloaked, and Ghosts can re-cloak while nuking without interrupting
People need to realize they are testing it and can change the time you can stay cloak and the cool down at any time. There trying to add a new mechanic to the ghost. Can cast a nuke and then go cloak is what it is stating which is kind of cool.
If it doesn't work out they will remove it but lets see it in action and then give constructive feedback .
On July 28 2012 09:16 Battleaxe wrote: Here's one more vote for this thread getting closed. For all you people declaring this shit is worth talking about and blizzard needs to know about it, go bring it up on the Bnet forums and see if blizzard doesn't just close it.
OT: They should just remove the ghost entirely if they're going to go through with this change I guess judging from all the whining, and I wouldn't complain one bit.
Seems like a niche play is being touted as standard in high level games and causing a huge change when in reality this will affect maybe 5% of real games if this makes it all the way through to release without being adjusted
Nobody's saying this will affect GSL to a significant degree. We ARE saying it is bad game design. I play this game for fun. This change = less fun. I would like to hear someone argue on behalf of the cool-down and stop flaming Avilo.
On July 28 2012 09:51 U_G_L_Y wrote: Are nukes currently overpowered?
If your answer is no, then why is this change being proposed?
If your answer is yes... well... I think we are probably past the point of effective communication...
I don't think the change is going for the nuke is overpowered. Your looking at it wrong. There trying to make you think about what your doing with you're ghost instead of going to someone base sitting there for x amount of seconds and casting a nuke off. I feel there trying to go for know where your energy is going with your ghost. Instead of using all your energy with cloaking all the way across the map and casting a nuke.
It's so hard to discuss all this because NOTHING is final and the beta has not even launched. Do you remember the Planet Cracker and Black Hole abilities on the beta mothership?
Stuff will change all the time and I trust that they will do a good job in balancing the game.
This is a really good point, nice job OP, very thorough and logical. I'm not sure why people are so eager to dismiss you. If there's a potential issue with one or more details of game design what is the problem with posting/discussing them, I thought that's part of what this website was for, I'm sure Blizzard pays attention to TL. Yeah, the beta isn't out yet, so what, it's hardly as if that's the moment game design begins.
On July 28 2012 09:59 ODKStevez wrote: It's so hard to discuss all this because NOTHING is final and the beta has not even launched. Do you remember the Planet Cracker and Black Hole abilities on the beta mothership?
Stuff will change all the time and I trust that they will do a good job in balancing the game.
Another thing was the Super Units you can only have 1 of! 1 Thor and 1 Mothership! BTW Planet Cracker was super awesome.
IIRC, Browder said that this change was supposed to help Terrans manage the energy on their ghosts, i.e. not forgetting to turn off cloak and running out of energy. This change is aimed at the lower level Terran players, but hurts those who already know how to properly manage their ghosts, meaning it hurts high-level Terrans. Did they change cloak on Banshee as well?
To all those saying "it's too early/this game isn't even in BETA/this is pure speculation, numbers can be changed/balance whiner QQ"/etc", shut up. Blizzard gave us the info and the numbers NOW and it is up to US to give them feedback NOW. We are the ones testing it. Numbers don't change unless we give them proper feedback. If you're just too lazy to test it yourself, don't bash the people who do and raise valid points. Why the "feedback embargo"? Why do you want to wait until it's too late?
On July 28 2012 10:04 S1eth wrote: IIRC, Browder said that this change was supposed to help Terrans manage the energy on their ghosts, i.e. not forgetting to turn off cloak and running out of energy. This change is aimed at the lower level Terran players, but hurts those who already know how to properly manage their ghosts, meaning it hurts high-level Terrrans. Did they change cloak on Banshee as well?
To all those saying "it's too early/this game isn't even in BETA/this is pure speculation, numbers can be changed/balance whiner QQ"/etc", shut up. Blizzard gave us the info and the numbers NOW and it is up to US to give them feedback NOW. We are the ones testing it. Numbers don't change unless we give them proper feedback. If you're just too lazy to test it yourself, don't bash the people who do and raise valid points. Why the "feedback embargo"? Why do you want to wait until it's too late?
Can you provide me where they provided the exact numbers? Where is the confirmed data?
It's arguably balanced because Zerg and Protoss don't have nukes? Oh, and does OP understand the meaning of the word "cool down"? Once cloak has been used there's a cool down until it can be used again. Not that hard.
But really, this is a helpful change. Nuke harassment might account for 1% of Ghost usage compared to 99% of tactical EMP'ing/sniping. This is good.
On July 28 2012 08:04 ROOTCatZ wrote: Avilo nothing you say has any relevance in my eyes, every race is getting changes in HotS, the zerg units are likely the most useless and will have less impact, while the hydra and ultra buffs are nice, the other 2 aren't v good. ALL you ever do, since the beta is complain about stuff you don't even understand, its pathetic, when terran was broken you and lzgamer were the only 2 terrans to deny it. these days ALL you do is rage and qq about zerg and protoss. I don't know what race you played in the game you played before, but if i had to guess it was the worst race. Reality is avilo, you need to look into your flaws, your mechanics aren't actually terrible, you're just really bad and your decision making is not very good, watching your stream is painful on the brain and you need to realize that its you who sucks, not the game. the sooner, the better.
Note: I don't think of myself as levels above avilo or anything in that regard, even though i very rarely lose to him, and not cause zerg is op or blabla, i mean i rarely lose to him for the last 2 years. But the harsh reality here is every race has its strengths and weaknesses and if we're not looking into our own mistakes and blaming blizzard about everything, we're never gonna improve. Avilo, learn to type 'gg' after gettin pwnd and learn to acknowledge your mistakes instead of blaming 'browder' for your sucking.
On July 28 2012 08:04 ROOTCatZ wrote: Avilo nothing you say has any relevance in my eyes, every race is getting changes in HotS, the zerg units are likely the most useless and will have less impact, while the hydra and ultra buffs are nice, the other 2 aren't v good. ALL you ever do, since the beta is complain about stuff you don't even understand, its pathetic, when terran was broken you and lzgamer were the only 2 terrans to deny it. these days ALL you do is rage and qq about zerg and protoss. I don't know what race you played in the game you played before, but if i had to guess it was the worst race. Reality is avilo, you need to look into your flaws, your mechanics aren't actually terrible, you're just really bad and your decision making is not very good, watching your stream is painful on the brain and you need to realize that its you who sucks, not the game. the sooner, the better.
Note: I don't think of myself as levels above avilo or anything in that regard, even though i very rarely lose to him, and not cause zerg is op or blabla, i mean i rarely lose to him for the last 2 years. But the harsh reality here is every race has its strengths and weaknesses and if we're not looking into our own mistakes and blaming blizzard about everything, we're never gonna improve. Avilo, learn to type 'gg' after gettin pwnd and learn to acknowledge your mistakes instead of blaming 'browder' for your sucking.
What the fuck? I expect better from you catz. Did you just come here to brag or something? This thread has nothing to do with "QQing," let alone you or me personally, why you would come here and bash me is beyond me. This thread has to do with a terrible design change. If they changed the infestor to be similar with a cool down on burrow...it would be just as bad of a design decision, and an unnecessary change.
Or did you just post in this thread to try to discredit me/give credibility to the 1 liners in this thread? Very low. You literally said nothing about the topic at hand anywhere in your post lmao.
Take your mindless bashing to reddit where it belongs.
anyone who has watched your stream for over 10 minutes knows, you're qqing about a game that's not even out or remotely balanced, so why don't you instead give it some time, the way I see it there are no nerfs, it is a new game, heart of the swarm so get used to -CHANGES- it'll take a few months for it to get anywhere close to balanced. and reddit is awesome lmao!
ps: i wasn't watching your stream in the morning don't flatter yourself, I played the hots ums cause TT1 asked me to. Only time I open your stream is when I feel like watching someone cry or I feel like my day has been too good so far and I need a little bit of shit in it to balance shit out
That's as close as you came to relevance with respect to the OP, everything else was a lengthy, unnecessary, drawn out personal attack. You must really be a baller to be able to get away with it. Yeah, Avilo whines about balance sometimes, but I've never seen him flame someone on here. Was OP's point really so dreadful that it didn't even merit a calm, reasoned response? Was all this neccessary?
On July 28 2012 10:04 S1eth wrote: IIRC, Browder said that this change was supposed to help Terrans manage the energy on their ghosts, i.e. not forgetting to turn off cloak and running out of energy. This change is aimed at the lower level Terran players, but hurts those who already know how to properly manage their ghosts, meaning it hurts high-level Terrrans. Did they change cloak on Banshee as well?
To all those saying "it's too early/this game isn't even in BETA/this is pure speculation, numbers can be changed/balance whiner QQ"/etc", shut up. Blizzard gave us the info and the numbers NOW and it is up to US to give them feedback NOW. We are the ones testing it. Numbers don't change unless we give them proper feedback. If you're just too lazy to test it yourself, don't bash the people who do and raise valid points. Why the "feedback embargo"? Why do you want to wait until it's too late?
Can you provide me where they provided the exact numbers? Where is the confirmed data?
You'd have to ask the creator of the HotS custom MOD, but I assume all the data is from the playable demos of HotS from MLG.
On July 28 2012 10:15 Areon wrote: It's arguably balanced because Zerg and Protoss don't have nukes? Oh, and does OP understand the meaning of the word "cool down"? Once cloak has been used there's a cool down until it can be used again. Not that hard.
But really, this is a helpful change. Nuke harassment might account for 1% of Ghost usage compared to 99% of tactical EMP'ing/sniping. This is good.
Ofcourse he knows what a cool down is. Thats what the problem is.
How is taking control away from the player a good thing? Ive never heard of one person ever in all of sc or sc2 mention the that the cloak mechanic needs to change. This change is odd at best.
On July 28 2012 10:04 S1eth wrote: IIRC, Browder said that this change was supposed to help Terrans manage the energy on their ghosts, i.e. not forgetting to turn off cloak and running out of energy. This change is aimed at the lower level Terran players, but hurts those who already know how to properly manage their ghosts, meaning it hurts high-level Terrrans. Did they change cloak on Banshee as well?
To all those saying "it's too early/this game isn't even in BETA/this is pure speculation, numbers can be changed/balance whiner QQ"/etc", shut up. Blizzard gave us the info and the numbers NOW and it is up to US to give them feedback NOW. We are the ones testing it. Numbers don't change unless we give them proper feedback. If you're just too lazy to test it yourself, don't bash the people who do and raise valid points. Why the "feedback embargo"? Why do you want to wait until it's too late?
Can you provide me where they provided the exact numbers? Where is the confirmed data?
You'd have to ask the creator of the HotS custom MOD, but I assume all the data is from the playable demos of HotS from MLG.
Problem is that # they provided in the demo could be something they haven't even adjusted. Yes they gave a # but that doesn't mean that is going to be the true # that it is going out with. I feel people are blowing this way out of proportion. Lets see the patch notes for Heart of the Swarm and see what they actually use for the beta before we start jumping to conclusions. Like that game on Office Space "Jump to Conclusions".
Actually in a stalemate situation really lategame ghosts have never been correctly dealt with imo because its so hard to deal with them. Besides that, which can be written off as making the game take more skill, i feel complaining about a hots change when frickin hellions will be able to become firebats is too pre-emptive. You talk about it from a WOL perspective when it is for hots
On July 28 2012 10:04 S1eth wrote: IIRC, Browder said that this change was supposed to help Terrans manage the energy on their ghosts, i.e. not forgetting to turn off cloak and running out of energy. This change is aimed at the lower level Terran players, but hurts those who already know how to properly manage their ghosts, meaning it hurts high-level Terrrans. Did they change cloak on Banshee as well?
To all those saying "it's too early/this game isn't even in BETA/this is pure speculation, numbers can be changed/balance whiner QQ"/etc", shut up. Blizzard gave us the info and the numbers NOW and it is up to US to give them feedback NOW. We are the ones testing it. Numbers don't change unless we give them proper feedback. If you're just too lazy to test it yourself, don't bash the people who do and raise valid points. Why the "feedback embargo"? Why do you want to wait until it's too late?
Can you provide me where they provided the exact numbers? Where is the confirmed data?
You'd have to ask the creator of the HotS custom MOD, but I assume all the data is from the playable demos of HotS from MLG.
Problem is that # they provided in the demo could be something they haven't even adjusted. Yes they gave a # but that doesn't mean that is going to be the true # that it is going out with. I feel people are blowing this way out of proportion. Lets see the patch notes for Heart of the Swarm and see what they actually use for the beta before we start jumping to conclusions. Like that game on Office Space "Jump to Conclusions".
Blizzard wouldn't give us "fake" numbers, so we know that during MLG, that was Blizzard's current build (maybe minus 2 weeks). The numbers might change, yes, but maybe because of community feedback such as this thread? I don't trust Blizzard to get those things right on their own. Discovering and making these issues public saves both us and Blizzard a lot of trouble and time (and money).
I can't say I like the fact that, with the current stats, a ghost is guaranteed to die after successfully calling in a nuke unless your opponent, for some reason, doesn't look at the colored dot on the minimap / his base for 30 ingame seconds. That is, if you even get that far with your ghost.
Great post Avilo. I never realized the implications this change had for terran. But yeah, I don't see why blizzard is making the change at all. Ghost cloaking works fine as-is.
On July 28 2012 10:27 Bippzy wrote: Actually in a stalemate situation really lategame ghosts have never been correctly dealt with imo because its so hard to deal with them. Besides that, which can be written off as making the game take more skill, i feel complaining about a hots change when frickin hellions will be able to become firebats is too pre-emptive. You talk about it from a WOL perspective when it is for hots
I hear ya, but has cloaked units ever been a problem? Would they be more of a problem in HotS? I dont see why. Each race has a building and a unit to detect cloaked units. Even without that its still very possible to notice them on your screen and get detection asap. Plus theres fungal, EMP, Scans, obs take the snap of a finger to build and with spd upg they are boss. I think a player with any skill should be able to counter cloak well enough that changes to the cloak mechanic are not needed.
So avilo this means you have early access to the beta, congratz you lucky dog. Because qq'ing about a game that hasn't hit beta yet would just be stupid..........
The above contains my original reaction. My more reasoned approach is that lets wait and see. It might be a problem, but we don't even have non blizz employes playing that game yet, much less high level players who can make comments on balance.
i can not believe you are complaining about an expansion... that isnt even in beta yet, and their are guaranteed changes to be made... like wtf stop complaining lol...
What the fuck. The game isn't even in beta and you are already complaining? Come on, man. We don't even know the state of the other races. Stop complaining.
First of all I don't really get why people are bashing Avilo this hard for shedding some light on these changes. I personally don't like this change for several reasons.
All in all I think this won't a "nerf" to the ghost, but its a way to babysit me as a terran player. It becomes easier to control my ghosts and to some degree use cloak in combat situations without worrying to much about loosing x number of emp's. But I don't want the game to babysit my units because I don't have the endgame multitasking abilities to manage my ghosts a long with all the other stuff that goes on. There are of course changes that simplifies the game and control, while still bringing good gameplay, but this doesn't seem like one of them.
It would most likely cripple nuke endgame harassment which is a shame really. Nuke harassment is a good thing because it forces a reaction from your opponent. If his multitasking is not good enough he will loose workers, buildings, etc. etc. On the other hand if its good enough you can handle it with pretty limited losses.
TLDR: The change isn't necessarily a nerf, but the current way ghost cloak works has better gameplay.
So much hate for Avilo being Avilo in this thread.
Legit concern.
I agree with Avilo here. The ghost REALLY doesn't need any more nerfs... Hell, I think it's pretty clear the ghost could use some slight buffs to make it useful again. And I fucking hate Terran!
I don't get why people are ignoring the arguments made here just because "the game isn't out" or "there's going to be changes duh!". Firstly, the game not being out isn't indicative of the ability to theorise and imagine the effects of such changes and thus can be discussed. Does every discussion need physical evidence? Secondly, Blizzard doesn't get balance from stats, they get it from games and community reactions. There's plenty reason to have a thread like this. [/minirant]
On topic: nukes are one of the coolest things in starcraft and that tense moment in figuring out where it is and how to find the ghost tests the true mettle of players. So I don't get this change at all, it feels once again like a balance patch for the lower leagues that just gives another reason for progamers to ignore the unit. Also amazingly inconsistent with the banshee and almost everything else in the game. I thought they were trying to avoid cooldowns by giving terran t3 energy bars, and then this?
Hmmm...first EMP was nerfed...then snipe.....now cloak too.....? Really...? Later, expect a nerf to Nuke, fellow Terrans...
But I agree, avilo is giving his "feedback". So stop saying the game isnt even out yet, because of course Blizzard wants to hear some feedbacks, and that is what Avilo is doing. I think many of you just want to bash him, not contribute to this thread.
And rootcatz comments, yeah guys, of course he can get away with it because he is a pro gamer, he won't receive any ban/warn.
If this change goes ahead, well.....i dont know what to do in late game tvp, someone mentioned this already. What will you do when your cloak is on cooldown, and the protoss a moves at you?
Where did all the intelligent people on TL go? Avilo brought to light a big issue with the design of the ghost in Hots and all people are doing is flaming him like we are on reddit.
Lmao, as a terran, I must ask other terrans, do we really care? They've already nerfed ghosts 3 times in 2 patches, do any other terrans seriously use ghosts consistently? At this point I couldn't care less. Dustin balder should make ghosts hop on 1 leg next!
On July 28 2012 12:02 GHSTxJet wrote: If it upsets you that much just switch races.
This really isn't needed.
Please respond to the question at hand.
It's not needed, but its a GREAT idea. After switching to zerg from terran, I jumped 2 leagues in 2 weeks and haven't looked back. Once you sort of realize terrans are just gonna get nerfed, just get really good at ZvT and call it a day
On July 28 2012 12:02 GHSTxJet wrote: If it upsets you that much just switch races.
This really isn't needed.
Please respond to the question at hand.
It's not needed, but its a GREAT idea. After switching to zerg from terran, I jumped 2 leagues in 2 weeks and haven't looked back. Once you sort of realize terrans are just gonna get nerfed, just get really good at ZvT and call it a day
You really think somebody will believe you? You just stated you are still a Terran player in one of your earlier post
Just because his nick is avilo and some sotg kiddies like to pick on random community kids does not change the fact that this change is unjustified. Ghosts are fine, stop nerfing them.
Oh I forgot, you do not need to be playing beta to realize how bad this change would be for the ghost. Then again it might have been scrapped allready, so I understand why some might bitch that wait for the actual beta before making these threads...
First off as a forever bronze player who uses ghosts and nukes I hate this idea. I don't see this as slow level buff it's nerf. Low level folks are going to die trying I emp as well I think.
This change seems to me to finally finish removing the abilities I saw MVP use against Nestea at the Blizzcon finals.
For those of other races who can't seem to wrap there heads around the fact this is a bad idea without even playing the game, picture this:
Sentries can put down FFs for half their WoL cost but now there's a 10 second cool down between dropping FFs
Or
Infestors that can toss two infested terrans at time but there's a 20 second cool down
Both of these examples are buffs that are in reality a nerf based on how the units are used regardless of if it's hots or WoL. This is exactly how it is for the ghost cloak debacle.
On July 28 2012 12:44 stfouri wrote: Just because his nick is avilo and some sotg kiddies like to pick on random community kids does not change the fact that this change is unjustified.
Yap, lots of un-necessary hate itt. "Look at me, I'm cool, I made fun of that nerd avilo like they did on sotg!1!"
Change feels silly, even the reasoning behind it seems silly. The whole aspect of managing ghost energy and cloaking and uncloaking at the right times adds tactical depth. I don't know about the balance implications, but from that standpoint its just kind of un-necessary.
On July 28 2012 08:04 ROOTCatZ wrote: Avilo nothing you say has any relevance in my eyes, every race is getting changes in HotS, the zerg units are likely the most useless and will have less impact, while the hydra and ultra buffs are nice, the other 2 aren't v good. ALL you ever do, since the beta is complain about stuff you don't even understand, its pathetic, when terran was broken you and lzgamer were the only 2 terrans to deny it. these days ALL you do is rage and qq about zerg and protoss. I don't know what race you played in the game you played before, but if i had to guess it was the worst race. Reality is avilo, you need to look into your flaws, your mechanics aren't actually terrible, you're just really bad and your decision making is not very good, watching your stream is painful on the brain and you need to realize that its you who sucks, not the game. the sooner, the better.
Note: I don't think of myself as levels above avilo or anything in that regard, even though i very rarely lose to him, and not cause zerg is op or blabla, i mean i rarely lose to him for the last 2 years. But the harsh reality here is every race has its strengths and weaknesses and if we're not looking into our own mistakes and blaming blizzard about everything, we're never gonna improve. Avilo, learn to type 'gg' after gettin pwnd and learn to acknowledge your mistakes instead of blaming 'browder' for your sucking.
LOL? I agree with all of your critiques about Avilo, but Zerg gets the worst from HotS? Are you kidding me? Maybe the Swarm Host, but the Viper is amazing.
The hydra speed buff is the most important addition that zerg got imo, the viper is a late game unit and the swarm host is more of a drop/harass unit more than anything. As of now terran has the best additions followed by zerg and then toss(and i swear to god im not being biased). Terran now has 3 new useful units (counting spider mines which by the way, is the most OP unit addition in HOTS) that they can add into their unit composition at any stage of the game whereas protoss didnt get any new attacking unit to help their early/midd game. Also all the OP mothership core abilities like energize are going to get nerfed anyways so theres no point in debating over how good it is, in what fucking world did blizzard think that an ability that gives 100 energy to your nexus for the cost of 25 energy would be balanced? r.o.f.l
tbh i would be shocked if blizzard didnt make any major changes to the protoss units before releasing the beta, i expect them to add 1 new early/midd game unit
Once again, a good change for newbies and a bad one for the players who can handle themselves the cloack/uncloack ability. Pure theorycraft, but this change would kind of buff EMP and snipe (more energy) while nerfing Nuke, right ? Sounds like a step into the wrong direction.
Also, in my newbie opinion, casters should have an energy bar or cooldown, but not both at the same time, that's an half-assed new mechanic which was designed to solve a problem that never existed in the first place.
On July 28 2012 08:04 ROOTCatZ wrote: Avilo nothing you say has any relevance in my eyes, every race is getting changes in HotS, the zerg units are likely the most useless and will have less impact, while the hydra and ultra buffs are nice, the other 2 aren't v good. ALL you ever do, since the beta is complain about stuff you don't even understand, its pathetic, when terran was broken you and lzgamer were the only 2 terrans to deny it. these days ALL you do is rage and qq about zerg and protoss. I don't know what race you played in the game you played before, but if i had to guess it was the worst race. Reality is avilo, you need to look into your flaws, your mechanics aren't actually terrible, you're just really bad and your decision making is not very good, watching your stream is painful on the brain and you need to realize that its you who sucks, not the game. the sooner, the better.
Note: I don't think of myself as levels above avilo or anything in that regard, even though i very rarely lose to him, and not cause zerg is op or blabla, i mean i rarely lose to him for the last 2 years. But the harsh reality here is every race has its strengths and weaknesses and if we're not looking into our own mistakes and blaming blizzard about everything, we're never gonna improve. Avilo, learn to type 'gg' after gettin pwnd and learn to acknowledge your mistakes instead of blaming 'browder' for your sucking.
LOL? I agree with all of your critiques about Avilo, but Zerg gets the worst from HotS? Are you kidding me? Maybe the Swarm Host, but the Viper is amazing.
The hydra speed buff is the most important addition that zerg got imo, the viper is a late game unit and the swarm host is more of a drop/harass unit more than anything. As of now terran has the best additions followed by zerg and then toss(and i swear to god im not being biased). Terran now has 3 new useful units (counting spider mines which by the way, is the most OP unit addition in HOTS) that they can add into their unit composition at any stage of the game whereas protoss didnt get any new attacking unit to help their early/midd game. Also all the OP mothership core abilities like energize are going to get nerfed anyways so theres no point in debating over how good it is, in what fucking world did blizzard think an ability that gives 100 energy to your nexus for the cost of 25 energy would be balanced? r.o.f.l
tbh i would be shocked if blizzard didnt make any major changes to the protoss units before releasing the beta, i expect them to add 1 new early/midd game unit
I'm not exactly a fan of considering the changes as purely "nerfs" as you seemed to emphasize the change as, I can see how it might make for poor game design, mostly from the perspective you outline in some of your intermediary posts throughout the thread.
To be honest the argument that it makes it more difficult to get a Ghost into position is... fine, I like that it should be more than pick a Cloaked Ghost out and set him off to Nuke, that sort of vulnerability makes it a more interesting endeavor in my opinion.
The concerns about cloak and Medivacs and the likes are legitimate, but dismissing the change as a whole due to it being a "nerf" is something I can't really condone. It is under development and that needs to be taken into consideration, personally since Blizzard seems to want to do something with Cloaking it might be an area they're open to suggestions in, I'd like to hear what some people might like in the realm of Ghost changes with regards specifically to cloaking, energy consumption and nukes.
Still, you might want to open your mind to the positives of the change and ignore any sort of balance perspective, this change has some positive impacts of skill requirements, while it does also pose some negative aspects of the Ghost's cloaking design.
The ghost change isn't happening in a vacuum - it's happening along with many other changes to all races. It's impossible to think about balance at this point in all honesty.
On July 28 2012 13:36 densha wrote: The ghost change isn't happening in a vacuum - it's happening along with many other changes to all races. It's impossible to think about balance at this point in all honesty.
Its just another stupid change to help super low level players
On July 28 2012 12:44 stfouri wrote: Just because his nick is avilo and some sotg kiddies like to pick on random community kids does not change the fact that this change is unjustified.
Yap, lots of un-necessary hate itt. "Look at me, I'm cool, I made fun of that nerd avilo like they did on sotg!1!"
Change feels silly, even the reasoning behind it seems silly. The whole aspect of managing ghost energy and cloaking and uncloaking at the right times adds tactical depth. I don't know about the balance implications, but from that standpoint its just kind of un-necessary.
Well he did make himself look like a fool on SOTG. He wouldn't listen to what they were saying and kept cutting them off. He also basically forced himself on the show when they didn't really want him there in the first place. All-in-all my first impression of him was that he is an asshole. He has also made many balance whine threads in the past that don't make him look the greatest.
The other nerf here is you would no longer be able to load an already cloaked ghost in a medivac and drop it off still cloaked into an opponent's base. The cloak will run out and the ghost will be easily visible + have the remaining cooldown period to wait to re-cloak
I don't think this paragraph is needed. You can always cloak the ghost after it drops. If your opponent is aware, they'll see the medivac anyway so this shouldn't change much.
Besides that paragraph, I agree with your post. I don't feel like this change is needed at all. If anything, I guess it only really helps when your ghosts first pop out and don't have much energy to stay cloaked for a few seconds and emp at the same time. They've made changes already to HOTS and this is one thing I don't think will stick.
PS: We all know how Terran has been doing lately. Terran does not need another nerf on top of every other nerf that the race has been hit with When writing a thread about a bad design change, you really shouldn't throw these in. It makes it sounds a lot more like a whine then a legitimate concern. Especially when talking about HOTS since it will most likely feel like a new game.
On July 28 2012 08:04 ROOTCatZ wrote: Avilo nothing you say has any relevance in my eyes, every race is getting changes in HotS, the zerg units are likely the most useless and will have less impact, while the hydra and ultra buffs are nice, the other 2 aren't v good. ALL you ever do, since the beta is complain about stuff you don't even understand, its pathetic, when terran was broken you and lzgamer were the only 2 terrans to deny it. these days ALL you do is rage and qq about zerg and protoss. I don't know what race you played in the game you played before, but if i had to guess it was the worst race. Reality is avilo, you need to look into your flaws, your mechanics aren't actually terrible, you're just really bad and your decision making is not very good, watching your stream is painful on the brain and you need to realize that its you who sucks, not the game. the sooner, the better.
Note: I don't think of myself as levels above avilo or anything in that regard, even though i very rarely lose to him, and not cause zerg is op or blabla, i mean i rarely lose to him for the last 2 years. But the harsh reality here is every race has its strengths and weaknesses and if we're not looking into our own mistakes and blaming blizzard about everything, we're never gonna improve. Avilo, learn to type 'gg' after gettin pwnd and learn to acknowledge your mistakes instead of blaming 'browder' for your sucking.
LOL? I agree with all of your critiques about Avilo, but Zerg gets the worst from HotS? Are you kidding me? Maybe the Swarm Host, but the Viper is amazing.
The hydra speed buff is the most important addition that zerg got imo, the viper is a late game unit and the swarm host is more of a drop/harass unit more than anything. As of now terran has the best additions followed by zerg and then toss(and i swear to god im not being biased). Terran now has 3 new useful units (counting spider mines which by the way, is the most OP unit addition in HOTS) that they can add into their unit composition at any stage of the game whereas protoss didnt get any new attacking unit to help their early/midd game. Also all the OP mothership core abilities like energize are going to get nerfed anyways so theres no point in debating over how good it is, in what fucking world did blizzard think an ability that gives 100 energy to your nexus for the cost of 25 energy would be balanced? r.o.f.l
tbh i would be shocked if blizzard didnt make any major changes to the protoss units before releasing the beta, i expect them to add 1 new early/midd game unit
Terran has the best buff?
Haha.
this is coming from someone whos been playing the HOTS ums 24/7 for the past week
On July 28 2012 08:04 ROOTCatZ wrote: Avilo nothing you say has any relevance in my eyes, every race is getting changes in HotS, the zerg units are likely the most useless and will have less impact, while the hydra and ultra buffs are nice, the other 2 aren't v good. ALL you ever do, since the beta is complain about stuff you don't even understand, its pathetic, when terran was broken you and lzgamer were the only 2 terrans to deny it. these days ALL you do is rage and qq about zerg and protoss. I don't know what race you played in the game you played before, but if i had to guess it was the worst race. Reality is avilo, you need to look into your flaws, your mechanics aren't actually terrible, you're just really bad and your decision making is not very good, watching your stream is painful on the brain and you need to realize that its you who sucks, not the game. the sooner, the better.
Note: I don't think of myself as levels above avilo or anything in that regard, even though i very rarely lose to him, and not cause zerg is op or blabla, i mean i rarely lose to him for the last 2 years. But the harsh reality here is every race has its strengths and weaknesses and if we're not looking into our own mistakes and blaming blizzard about everything, we're never gonna improve. Avilo, learn to type 'gg' after gettin pwnd and learn to acknowledge your mistakes instead of blaming 'browder' for your sucking.
LOL? I agree with all of your critiques about Avilo, but Zerg gets the worst from HotS? Are you kidding me? Maybe the Swarm Host, but the Viper is amazing.
The hydra speed buff is the most important addition that zerg got imo, the viper is a late game unit and the swarm host is more of a drop/harass unit more than anything. As of now terran has the best additions followed by zerg and then toss(and i swear to god im not being biased). Terran now has 3 new useful units (counting spider mines which by the way, is the most OP unit addition in HOTS) that they can add into their unit composition at any stage of the game whereas protoss didnt get any new attacking unit to help their early/midd game. Also all the OP mothership core abilities like energize are going to get nerfed anyways so theres no point in debating over how good it is, in what fucking world did blizzard think that an ability that gives 100 energy to your nexus for the cost of 25 energy would be balanced? r.o.f.l
tbh i would be shocked if blizzard didnt make any major changes to the protoss units before releasing the beta, i expect them to add 1 new early/midd game unit
@ Catz: In the last game he played, Red Alert 3, he played Allied, which were definitely NOT the weakest race (which was Empire with soviet being, back when I played, a little behind allies imo but streets ahead of Empire. But I played soviet so take that with a grain of salt sir!)
And our mate avilo was still as insufferable back then as he is now. Well maybe he's a little better, but still.
I think he played Terran in BW too but I might be making that up.
On July 28 2012 08:04 ROOTCatZ wrote: Avilo nothing you say has any relevance in my eyes, every race is getting changes in HotS, the zerg units are likely the most useless and will have less impact, while the hydra and ultra buffs are nice, the other 2 aren't v good. ALL you ever do, since the beta is complain about stuff you don't even understand, its pathetic, when terran was broken you and lzgamer were the only 2 terrans to deny it. these days ALL you do is rage and qq about zerg and protoss. I don't know what race you played in the game you played before, but if i had to guess it was the worst race. Reality is avilo, you need to look into your flaws, your mechanics aren't actually terrible, you're just really bad and your decision making is not very good, watching your stream is painful on the brain and you need to realize that its you who sucks, not the game. the sooner, the better.
Note: I don't think of myself as levels above avilo or anything in that regard, even though i very rarely lose to him, and not cause zerg is op or blabla, i mean i rarely lose to him for the last 2 years. But the harsh reality here is every race has its strengths and weaknesses and if we're not looking into our own mistakes and blaming blizzard about everything, we're never gonna improve. Avilo, learn to type 'gg' after gettin pwnd and learn to acknowledge your mistakes instead of blaming 'browder' for your sucking.
LOL? I agree with all of your critiques about Avilo, but Zerg gets the worst from HotS? Are you kidding me? Maybe the Swarm Host, but the Viper is amazing.
The hydra speed buff is the most important addition that zerg got imo, the viper is a late game unit and the swarm host is more of a drop/harass unit more than anything. As of now terran has the best additions followed by zerg and then toss(and i swear to god im not being biased). Terran now has 3 new useful units (counting spider mines which by the way, is the most OP unit addition in HOTS) that they can add into their unit composition at any stage of the game whereas protoss didnt get any new attacking unit to help their early/midd game. Also all the OP mothership core abilities like energize are going to get nerfed anyways so theres no point in debating over how good it is, in what fucking world did blizzard think that an ability that gives 100 energy to your nexus for the cost of 25 energy would be balanced? r.o.f.l
tbh i would be shocked if blizzard didnt make any major changes to the protoss units before releasing the beta, i expect them to add 1 new early/midd game unit
I'm not sure why you're dismissing vipers and saying hyrdra buff is the most significant when hydra speed upgrade is hive tech. That's also late game.
I honestly think it's a bit silly to be talking about balance for HOTS when nobody has even played it yet. It's a bit ridiculous.
There are so many of these little "tweaks" to Terran that its becoming hard to argue for the competence or impartiality of the balance team. That said, a LOT of things are going to be adjusted in beta when comes in closed or open form, so there isn't need to jump all over this yet.
Snide comments about Avilo also getting super old. Need to pick on someone else ya'll.
On July 28 2012 10:04 S1eth wrote: IIRC, Browder said that this change was supposed to help Terrans manage the energy on their ghosts, i.e. not forgetting to turn off cloak and running out of energy. This change is aimed at the lower level Terran players, but hurts those who already know how to properly manage their ghosts, meaning it hurts high-level Terrans. Did they change cloak on Banshee as well?
Agreed. This hurts high level play.
Also while the numbers can change, the concept itself can be talked about.
Where were all the people who right now saying "wait for the beta" when the Shredder and Replicant was released?
This is one of those changes you can easily talk about now instead of later.
Well... It won't matter will it? I thought you said mass ravens were the key to Terran, ghosts play no part in that. ^^ HoTS isn't out yet, when they realize how stupid it is (from a design perspective, not balance) to have it on cool down they will change it back, relax...
On July 28 2012 08:04 ROOTCatZ wrote: Avilo nothing you say has any relevance in my eyes, every race is getting changes in HotS, the zerg units are likely the most useless and will have less impact, while the hydra and ultra buffs are nice, the other 2 aren't v good. ALL you ever do, since the beta is complain about stuff you don't even understand, its pathetic, when terran was broken you and lzgamer were the only 2 terrans to deny it. these days ALL you do is rage and qq about zerg and protoss. I don't know what race you played in the game you played before, but if i had to guess it was the worst race. Reality is avilo, you need to look into your flaws, your mechanics aren't actually terrible, you're just really bad and your decision making is not very good, watching your stream is painful on the brain and you need to realize that its you who sucks, not the game. the sooner, the better.
Note: I don't think of myself as levels above avilo or anything in that regard, even though i very rarely lose to him, and not cause zerg is op or blabla, i mean i rarely lose to him for the last 2 years. But the harsh reality here is every race has its strengths and weaknesses and if we're not looking into our own mistakes and blaming blizzard about everything, we're never gonna improve. Avilo, learn to type 'gg' after gettin pwnd and learn to acknowledge your mistakes instead of blaming 'browder' for your sucking.
LOL? I agree with all of your critiques about Avilo, but Zerg gets the worst from HotS? Are you kidding me? Maybe the Swarm Host, but the Viper is amazing.
The hydra speed buff is the most important addition that zerg got imo, the viper is a late game unit and the swarm host is more of a drop/harass unit more than anything. As of now terran has the best additions followed by zerg and then toss(and i swear to god im not being biased). Terran now has 3 new useful units (counting spider mines which by the way, is the most OP unit addition in HOTS) that they can add into their unit composition at any stage of the game whereas protoss didnt get any new attacking unit to help their early/midd game. Also all the OP mothership core abilities like energize are going to get nerfed anyways so theres no point in debating over how good it is, in what fucking world did blizzard think that an ability that gives 100 energy to your nexus for the cost of 25 energy would be balanced? r.o.f.l
tbh i would be shocked if blizzard didnt make any major changes to the protoss units before releasing the beta, i expect them to add 1 new early/midd game unit
@ Catz: In the last game he played, Red Alert 3, he played Allied, which were definitely NOT the weakest race (which was Empire with soviet being, back when I played, a little behind allies imo but streets ahead of Empire. But I played soviet so take that with a grain of salt sir!)
And our mate avilo was still as insufferable back then as he is now. Well maybe he's a little better, but still.
I think he played Terran in BW too but I might be making that up.
i dont even want to know wtf happend to this guy before he thought of posting in this thread, haha. red aleret 3? in which fucked up dimension does this have relevance to anything in this thread, whoa. nah, i'm jk bro, ur alright.
so in all honesty, why the hell are people touching this subject, i mean, out of all the weird and meaningless subjects that have yet to be discussed on teamliquid, why bring this one up now and not after the beta is out when perhaps there's a sense of credibility
On July 28 2012 08:04 ROOTCatZ wrote: Avilo nothing you say has any relevance in my eyes, every race is getting changes in HotS, the zerg units are likely the most useless and will have less impact, while the hydra and ultra buffs are nice, the other 2 aren't v good. ALL you ever do, since the beta is complain about stuff you don't even understand, its pathetic, when terran was broken you and lzgamer were the only 2 terrans to deny it. these days ALL you do is rage and qq about zerg and protoss. I don't know what race you played in the game you played before, but if i had to guess it was the worst race. Reality is avilo, you need to look into your flaws, your mechanics aren't actually terrible, you're just really bad and your decision making is not very good, watching your stream is painful on the brain and you need to realize that its you who sucks, not the game. the sooner, the better.
Note: I don't think of myself as levels above avilo or anything in that regard, even though i very rarely lose to him, and not cause zerg is op or blabla, i mean i rarely lose to him for the last 2 years. But the harsh reality here is every race has its strengths and weaknesses and if we're not looking into our own mistakes and blaming blizzard about everything, we're never gonna improve. Avilo, learn to type 'gg' after gettin pwnd and learn to acknowledge your mistakes instead of blaming 'browder' for your sucking.
LOL? I agree with all of your critiques about Avilo, but Zerg gets the worst from HotS? Are you kidding me? Maybe the Swarm Host, but the Viper is amazing.
The hydra speed buff is the most important addition that zerg got imo, the viper is a late game unit and the swarm host is more of a drop/harass unit more than anything. As of now terran has the best additions followed by zerg and then toss(and i swear to god im not being biased). Terran now has 3 new useful units (counting spider mines which by the way, is the most OP unit addition in HOTS) that they can add into their unit composition at any stage of the game whereas protoss didnt get any new attacking unit to help their early/midd game. Also all the OP mothership core abilities like energize are going to get nerfed anyways so theres no point in debating over how good it is, in what fucking world did blizzard think that an ability that gives 100 energy to your nexus for the cost of 25 energy would be balanced? r.o.f.l
tbh i would be shocked if blizzard didnt make any major changes to the protoss units before releasing the beta, i expect them to add 1 new early/midd game unit
I'm not sure why you're dismissing vipers and saying hyrdra buff is the most significant when hydra speed upgrade is hive tech. That's also late game.
I honestly think it's a bit silly to be talking about balance for HOTS when nobody has even played it yet. It's a bit ridiculous.
consume is going to get nerfed and blinding cloud has no use in zvp, ur only going to be left with abduct in zvp and infestors already fulfill the same role to an extent
On July 28 2012 10:04 S1eth wrote: IIRC, Browder said that this change was supposed to help Terrans manage the energy on their ghosts, i.e. not forgetting to turn off cloak and running out of energy. This change is aimed at the lower level Terran players, but hurts those who already know how to properly manage their ghosts, meaning it hurts high-level Terrans. Did they change cloak on Banshee as well?
Agreed. This hurts high level play.
Also while the numbers can change, the concept itself can be talked about.
Where were all the people who right now saying "wait for the beta" when the Shredder and Replicant was released?
This is one of those changes you can easily talk about now instead of later.
i was shitting on the replicant 1 week after blizzard introduced it, everyone was hating on me :[
and avilos point is retarded because he doesnt even factor in all the new terran units into his argument, hes just isolating 1 random ability without even fully understanding the reason why it might have been nerfed that way. the type of argument hes trying to make requires alot of gameplay analysis
On July 28 2012 08:04 ROOTCatZ wrote: Avilo nothing you say has any relevance in my eyes, every race is getting changes in HotS, the zerg units are likely the most useless and will have less impact, while the hydra and ultra buffs are nice, the other 2 aren't v good. ALL you ever do, since the beta is complain about stuff you don't even understand, its pathetic, when terran was broken you and lzgamer were the only 2 terrans to deny it. these days ALL you do is rage and qq about zerg and protoss. I don't know what race you played in the game you played before, but if i had to guess it was the worst race. Reality is avilo, you need to look into your flaws, your mechanics aren't actually terrible, you're just really bad and your decision making is not very good, watching your stream is painful on the brain and you need to realize that its you who sucks, not the game. the sooner, the better.
Note: I don't think of myself as levels above avilo or anything in that regard, even though i very rarely lose to him, and not cause zerg is op or blabla, i mean i rarely lose to him for the last 2 years. But the harsh reality here is every race has its strengths and weaknesses and if we're not looking into our own mistakes and blaming blizzard about everything, we're never gonna improve. Avilo, learn to type 'gg' after gettin pwnd and learn to acknowledge your mistakes instead of blaming 'browder' for your sucking.
LOL? I agree with all of your critiques about Avilo, but Zerg gets the worst from HotS? Are you kidding me? Maybe the Swarm Host, but the Viper is amazing.
The hydra speed buff is the most important addition that zerg got imo, the viper is a late game unit and the swarm host is more of a drop/harass unit more than anything. As of now terran has the best additions followed by zerg and then toss(and i swear to god im not being biased). Terran now has 3 new useful units (counting spider mines which by the way, is the most OP unit addition in HOTS) that they can add into their unit composition at any stage of the game whereas protoss didnt get any new attacking unit to help their early/midd game. Also all the OP mothership core abilities like energize are going to get nerfed anyways so theres no point in debating over how good it is, in what fucking world did blizzard think that an ability that gives 100 energy to your nexus for the cost of 25 energy would be balanced? r.o.f.l
tbh i would be shocked if blizzard didnt make any major changes to the protoss units before releasing the beta, i expect them to add 1 new early/midd game unit
I'm not sure why you're dismissing vipers and saying hyrdra buff is the most significant when hydra speed upgrade is hive tech. That's also late game.
I honestly think it's a bit silly to be talking about balance for HOTS when nobody has even played it yet. It's a bit ridiculous.
consume is going to get nerfed and blinding cloud has no use in zvp, ur only going to be left with abduct in zvp and infestors already fulfill the same role to an extent
Eh I can see vipers being stronger zvp then infestors in some stages. Abduct will be incredibly powerful in picking apart some units like colossi which is what makes the protoss army so strong. Being able to snipe those 1 by 1 is going to be sexy as hell.
On July 28 2012 08:04 ROOTCatZ wrote: Avilo nothing you say has any relevance in my eyes, every race is getting changes in HotS, the zerg units are likely the most useless and will have less impact, while the hydra and ultra buffs are nice, the other 2 aren't v good. ALL you ever do, since the beta is complain about stuff you don't even understand, its pathetic, when terran was broken you and lzgamer were the only 2 terrans to deny it. these days ALL you do is rage and qq about zerg and protoss. I don't know what race you played in the game you played before, but if i had to guess it was the worst race. Reality is avilo, you need to look into your flaws, your mechanics aren't actually terrible, you're just really bad and your decision making is not very good, watching your stream is painful on the brain and you need to realize that its you who sucks, not the game. the sooner, the better.
Note: I don't think of myself as levels above avilo or anything in that regard, even though i very rarely lose to him, and not cause zerg is op or blabla, i mean i rarely lose to him for the last 2 years. But the harsh reality here is every race has its strengths and weaknesses and if we're not looking into our own mistakes and blaming blizzard about everything, we're never gonna improve. Avilo, learn to type 'gg' after gettin pwnd and learn to acknowledge your mistakes instead of blaming 'browder' for your sucking.
LOL? I agree with all of your critiques about Avilo, but Zerg gets the worst from HotS? Are you kidding me? Maybe the Swarm Host, but the Viper is amazing.
The hydra speed buff is the most important addition that zerg got imo, the viper is a late game unit and the swarm host is more of a drop/harass unit more than anything. As of now terran has the best additions followed by zerg and then toss(and i swear to god im not being biased). Terran now has 3 new useful units (counting spider mines which by the way, is the most OP unit addition in HOTS) that they can add into their unit composition at any stage of the game whereas protoss didnt get any new attacking unit to help their early/midd game. Also all the OP mothership core abilities like energize are going to get nerfed anyways so theres no point in debating over how good it is, in what fucking world did blizzard think that an ability that gives 100 energy to your nexus for the cost of 25 energy would be balanced? r.o.f.l
tbh i would be shocked if blizzard didnt make any major changes to the protoss units before releasing the beta, i expect them to add 1 new early/midd game unit
I'm not sure why you're dismissing vipers and saying hyrdra buff is the most significant when hydra speed upgrade is hive tech. That's also late game.
I honestly think it's a bit silly to be talking about balance for HOTS when nobody has even played it yet. It's a bit ridiculous.
consume is going to get nerfed and blinding cloud has no use in zvp, ur only going to be left with abduct in zvp and infestors already fulfill the same role to an extent
Biggest issues with all of these units is that they are one dimensional ... Like sure you might see some cool different uses out of them, like drop harassing with a battle hellion or nydusing swarm hosts but at high level play? I mean... It's basically going to be used for exactly its purpose, which imo is a fundemental problem with creative play.
The reason why BW was so fucking good was because its units were multi dimensonal, sure the tank was pretty straight forward and people understood what the carrier was for but morphing lurkers to block ramps with the egg and stacking mutas or jumping over pylon walls with vultures were not suppose to be (or were technically a design flaw) but made the game so much better.
Blizzard is taking this game the wrong way, it's saying "I want X to counter Y" which is basically turning into "If I have more X's to your Y's then I win but if you hide Z from me which directly counters my X's.." this whole concept of counter by counter is really really boring. I watch a lategame composition of Zerg vs Terran and I go "Well... The Terran doesn't have enough vikings, he lost this game" and what do you know, unless Taeja does some magical micro the Terran 90% of time loses and I see it coming..
So to get back to it, TT1 is right. The biggest changes are the possible viability of Hydras (which I still think should be brought from lair tech to hatch tech and speed at the lair) and the ultra buff. I also agree that Protoss got the shit end of the stick becuase Blizzard couldn't fix the deathball design flaw so they couldn't give Protoss anymore useful units.
EDIT: Like that fucking stupid tempest that has 100 range... What in the fuck is that. Why not just make it so the Carrier has the same fucking pathing as it did in BW (it's pretty simple, just go integrate the pathing from your previous game) so it can micro... Gah and the replicant? "Well we noticed that we ran out of ideas for a unit, so we decided to make a unit that could become ANYTHING!, good idea right?" That'll sure stop gimmicky play. Gah and then the oracle? Shit me sideways that thing is a piece of shit...
On July 28 2012 08:04 ROOTCatZ wrote: Avilo nothing you say has any relevance in my eyes, every race is getting changes in HotS, the zerg units are likely the most useless and will have less impact, while the hydra and ultra buffs are nice, the other 2 aren't v good. ALL you ever do, since the beta is complain about stuff you don't even understand, its pathetic, when terran was broken you and lzgamer were the only 2 terrans to deny it. these days ALL you do is rage and qq about zerg and protoss. I don't know what race you played in the game you played before, but if i had to guess it was the worst race. Reality is avilo, you need to look into your flaws, your mechanics aren't actually terrible, you're just really bad and your decision making is not very good, watching your stream is painful on the brain and you need to realize that its you who sucks, not the game. the sooner, the better.
Note: I don't think of myself as levels above avilo or anything in that regard, even though i very rarely lose to him, and not cause zerg is op or blabla, i mean i rarely lose to him for the last 2 years. But the harsh reality here is every race has its strengths and weaknesses and if we're not looking into our own mistakes and blaming blizzard about everything, we're never gonna improve. Avilo, learn to type 'gg' after gettin pwnd and learn to acknowledge your mistakes instead of blaming 'browder' for your sucking.
LOL? I agree with all of your critiques about Avilo, but Zerg gets the worst from HotS? Are you kidding me? Maybe the Swarm Host, but the Viper is amazing.
The hydra speed buff is the most important addition that zerg got imo, the viper is a late game unit and the swarm host is more of a drop/harass unit more than anything. As of now terran has the best additions followed by zerg and then toss(and i swear to god im not being biased). Terran now has 3 new useful units (counting spider mines which by the way, is the most OP unit addition in HOTS) that they can add into their unit composition at any stage of the game whereas protoss didnt get any new attacking unit to help their early/midd game. Also all the OP mothership core abilities like energize are going to get nerfed anyways so theres no point in debating over how good it is, in what fucking world did blizzard think that an ability that gives 100 energy to your nexus for the cost of 25 energy would be balanced? r.o.f.l
tbh i would be shocked if blizzard didnt make any major changes to the protoss units before releasing the beta, i expect them to add 1 new early/midd game unit
I'm not sure why you're dismissing vipers and saying hyrdra buff is the most significant when hydra speed upgrade is hive tech. That's also late game.
I honestly think it's a bit silly to be talking about balance for HOTS when nobody has even played it yet. It's a bit ridiculous.
consume is going to get nerfed and blinding cloud has no use in zvp, ur only going to be left with abduct in zvp and infestors already fulfill the same role to an extent
Eh I can see vipers being stronger zvp then infestors in some stages. Abduct will be incredibly powerful in picking apart some units like colossi which is what makes the protoss army so strong. Being able to snipe those 1 by 1 is going to be sexy as hell.
sure but zerg wont be able to skip infestors pre hive or else theyd die to colossus/blink stalker timings, by the time their hive is out i dont think theyd have enough gas to tech to both vipers and broodlords. imo viper tech is going to happen after bl's so the zerg ends up with an even stronger deathball, anything before that might be too risky
I bet half the reply's in this thread only read the first sentence.
If this change somehow gets into HotS then the Ghost will become vitally useless. Oh wait... Why can't Blizzard's balance team just get fired and replaced with 3/6/9 pro players? It would be cheaper and more effective than their current system.
But as Beta isn't out we can only hope the beta testers bitch like there is no tomorrow. Then Blizzard will nerf bunkers again instead (sarcasm).
I just like that they think of ways to change ghost cloak when there is one race whos cloak is more permanent for 0 energy usage, sounds like a sweet deal to me
On July 28 2012 08:04 ROOTCatZ wrote: Avilo nothing you say has any relevance in my eyes, every race is getting changes in HotS, the zerg units are likely the most useless and will have less impact, while the hydra and ultra buffs are nice, the other 2 aren't v good. ALL you ever do, since the beta is complain about stuff you don't even understand, its pathetic, when terran was broken you and lzgamer were the only 2 terrans to deny it. these days ALL you do is rage and qq about zerg and protoss. I don't know what race you played in the game you played before, but if i had to guess it was the worst race. Reality is avilo, you need to look into your flaws, your mechanics aren't actually terrible, you're just really bad and your decision making is not very good, watching your stream is painful on the brain and you need to realize that its you who sucks, not the game. the sooner, the better.
Note: I don't think of myself as levels above avilo or anything in that regard, even though i very rarely lose to him, and not cause zerg is op or blabla, i mean i rarely lose to him for the last 2 years. But the harsh reality here is every race has its strengths and weaknesses and if we're not looking into our own mistakes and blaming blizzard about everything, we're never gonna improve. Avilo, learn to type 'gg' after gettin pwnd and learn to acknowledge your mistakes instead of blaming 'browder' for your sucking.
What the fuck? I expect better from you catz. Did you just come here to brag or something? This thread has nothing to do with "QQing," let alone you or me personally, why you would come here and bash me is beyond me. This thread has to do with a terrible design change. If they changed the infestor to be similar with a cool down on burrow...it would be just as bad of a design decision, and an unnecessary change.
Or did you just post in this thread to try to discredit me/give credibility to the 1 liners in this thread? Very low. You literally said nothing about the topic at hand anywhere in your post lmao.
Take your mindless bashing to reddit where it belongs, stop trying to derail this this thread is not about me, it's about what blizzard has said they are considering doing to the ghost.
p.s. I thought it was cute yesterday that after my 3 hr stream session of the HOTS beta in the morning you had obviously been watching my stream and then got the idea to stream HOTS beta custom games from my stream I was flattered.
sorry bro but this a QQ thread, ur just talking about how stupid it is for ghosts to get nerfed without even understanding the reasoning behind it. if this were an argument u would have provided examples in order to prove your point, which sadly u didnt do :[
#1 - Game isn't out yet. #2 - You can't mindlessly que 10 ghosts go to to 10 different locations and nuke with no effort involved, QQ. #3 - You're bad at the game, they could make ghost cloak cost no energy and nukes be free and you would still suck at the game.
On July 28 2012 16:24 Alasper wrote: #1 - Game isn't out yet. #2 - You can't mindlessly que 10 ghosts go to to 10 different locations and nuke with no effort involved, QQ. #3 - You're bad at the game, they could make ghost cloak cost no energy and nukes be free and you would still suck at the game.
If this warrants a ban sorry, but worth it.
Ya this warrants a ban because you talked about. I don't get why people make posts and say stuff when they should know that's what will get you banned lol saying "if this gets me banned it was worth it" or something along those lines is seen as martying and will get you banned no matter how good your post is.
On July 28 2012 15:04 X3GoldDot wrote: terrans seem to be able to come up with everything in the world to qq.
Every race does this. It's how Ghosts got nerfed, Infestors got nerfed, early stim got nerfed, Overlords got buffed, Queens got buffed, Templar got nerfed. A dynamic online game with frequent patching will always have people who insist on blaming alltheir failures on the balance of the game. I'm not saying that's what Avilo does--my limited perception of him, while conducive to that assumption, really isn't enough to say for sure. But there's a reason I take complaints more seriously from guys like QXC than from other Terrans. Players like him are constantly making the utmost effort to adapt. Avilo is basically saying it's imbalance that a WoL playstyle can't be copied, action-for-action, into a HotS matchup. This only perpetuates my perception of Avilo as someone who never tries to pioneer new playstyles, or even tweak old ones.
On July 28 2012 15:53 ROOTT1 wrote: ur just talking about how stupid it is for ghosts to get nerfed without even understanding the reasoning behind it.
Blizzard's great at 'reasoning' but reasoning doesn't mean you're good at game design. So where does that leave us? SC2 is mediocre with the potential to go backwards with HotS. Thus, these threads complaining about pigeonholing units and bronze balance. QXC talked about this the last time they made a poor decision with the ghost. If you won't listen to Avilo, listen to him. QXC was pioneering ghosts vs marines and then the pointless nerf cam that pigeonholed ghosts into a simplistic anti-caster role. And then the cloak thing....
On July 28 2012 16:24 Alasper wrote: #1 - Game isn't out yet. #2 - You can't mindlessly que 10 ghosts go to to 10 different locations and nuke with no effort involved, QQ. #3 - You're bad at the game, they could make ghost cloak cost no energy and nukes be free and you would still suck at the game.
There are a million things both inside the game and outside (for instance, clan support and LAN) that people voiced their opinions about long before WoL was released with still no results. There's no harm in talking. The earlier we talk about something, the faster we can become correct.
I don't understand your second point (I'm ignoring the third, and you should know why). In what serious game are you going to have 10 ghost academies, let alone be able to find 10 different places that are actually worth nuking? Yet if someone actually gathered that many nukes and managed to not die, you think the cloak mechanic needs to change so he trips over the game while trying to execute that kind of play? What are you even talking about?
When people start arguing balance based on a single unit you know the argument is wrong.
"The reason the HOTS change is a nerf to Terran lategame and nuke harrassment and the cloak ability in general is because of how nuke harrassment works."
Who cares if nerfing the ghost makes Terran lategame weaker? have you considered that the new units and dynamics may make it stronger? Even imbalancedly stronger? As TLO said, whoever is arguing about balance in HOTS should use their panties as a hat.
I thought this was something serious, like " hey guys there is a bug where a ghost de cloack while it nukes" or something around the lines. Instead is a complain about not being able to just send a ghost cloack and shift command it to nuke for 2 minutes in the late game ? A ghost doesn't need to be cloacked other than when nuking ( it need to be when nuking so that you can't just kill it with probes, or at least you need a cannon in a very good spot to be able to kill it with probes ), but when moving... unless the protoss has randomly placed stalkers around the map or unless you send it into the protoss tower vision , it doesn't need the fucking cloack. You are basically complaining about you not being able to just cloack it once and harras with a 300 damage aoe without doing the horrible multitasking that is pressing 1 button before the ghost nukes.
WoW, just wow, I was sorry for you when they mocked you at SOTG, i think i actually posted defending you... i didn't knew this kinda of shit is the reason why they did it. Now i see what they were talking about with the "avilo thread' thing... NOT to fucking mention this is not even HOTS beta yet, its a CUSTOM map made after a god damn ALFA.
On July 28 2012 17:04 Aterons_toss wrote: I thought this was something serious, like " hey guys there is a bug where a ghost de cloack while it nukes" or something around the lines. Instead is a complain about not being able to just send a ghost cloack and shift command it to nuke for 2 minutes in the late game ? A ghost doesn't need to be cloacked other than when nuking ( it need to be when nuking so that you can't just kill it with probes, or at least you need a cannon in a very good spot to be able to kill it with probes ), but when moving... unless the protoss has randomly placed stalkers around the map or unless you send it into the protoss tower vision , it doesn't need the fucking cloack. You are basically complaining about you not being able to just cloack it once and harras with a 300 damage aoe without doing the horrible multitasking that is pressing 1 button before the ghost nukes.
WoW, just wow, I was sorry for you when they mocked you at SOTG, i think i actually posted defending you... i didn't knew this kinda of shit is the reason why they did it. Now i see what they were talking about with the "avilo thread' thing... NOT to fucking mention this is not even HOTS beta yet, its a CUSTOM map made after a god damn ALFA.
Good luck sending a ghost without cloak against Zerg when there's creep everywhere.
And with bigger maps coming out this will effectively relegate nuke play to Silver league where opponents don't use the minimap.
On July 28 2012 10:04 S1eth wrote: IIRC, Browder said that this change was supposed to help Terrans manage the energy on their ghosts, i.e. not forgetting to turn off cloak and running out of energy. This change is aimed at the lower level Terran players, but hurts those who already know how to properly manage their ghosts, meaning it hurts high-level Terrans. Did they change cloak on Banshee as well?
Agreed. This hurts high level play.
Also while the numbers can change, the concept itself can be talked about.
Where were all the people who right now saying "wait for the beta" when the Shredder and Replicant was released?
This is one of those changes you can easily talk about now instead of later.
i was shitting on the replicant 1 week after blizzard introduced it, everyone was hating on me :[
and avilos point is retarded because he doesnt even factor in all the new terran units into his argument, hes just isolating 1 random ability without even fully understanding the reason why it might have been nerfed that way. the type of argument hes trying to make requires alot of gameplay analysis
Tyler also went off about the replicant as well. It was a stupid idea. Hopefully community feedback sped up that process. So is putting cloak on a cooldown. I dont know how you could possibly nuke with that, nor can I think of a reason that the change needs to be made. It also makes templar way hard to deal with if Protoss just pulls back until ghosts uncloak. I haven't seen where you have presented evidence to the contrary. You just kind of said Avilos point is dumb. Good perspective on Viper though..
How can they be nerfing something when it's a new game that no one has played in competitions yet? If they are nerfing the ghost as we see it now it is probably because they are changing other stuff aswell that would make the ghost as it is now a potentially overpowered unit.
On July 28 2012 17:22 Mashmed wrote: How can they be nerfing something when it's a new game that no one has played in competitions yet? If they are nerfing the ghost as we see it now it is probably because they are changing other stuff aswell that would make the ghost as it is now a potentially overpowered unit.
Even if Zerg and Protoss was removed from the game this would be a stupid change because it makes nuking completely impossible if your opponent is slightly competent.
On July 28 2012 17:22 Mashmed wrote: How can they be nerfing something when it's a new game that no one has played in competitions yet? If they are nerfing the ghost as we see it now it is probably because they are changing other stuff aswell that would make the ghost as it is now a potentially overpowered unit.
Even if Zerg and Protoss was removed from the game this would be a stupid change because it makes nuking completely impossible if your opponent is slightly competent.
You have 30 seconds to nuke someone how is 30 seconds not enough?
On July 28 2012 17:22 Mashmed wrote: How can they be nerfing something when it's a new game that no one has played in competitions yet? If they are nerfing the ghost as we see it now it is probably because they are changing other stuff aswell that would make the ghost as it is now a potentially overpowered unit.
Even if Zerg and Protoss was removed from the game this would be a stupid change because it makes nuking completely impossible if your opponent is slightly competent.
You have 30 seconds to nuke someone how is 30 seconds not enough?
10 seconds only. 20 seconds taken up by channeling.
Travel distance.
Zergs will have creep. And lategame vT and vP would involve infiltrating their front lines to get to good nuke targets anyway.
You're also ignoring the fact that Ghosts aren't suicide units. At 200/100 costs you're supposed to try to save them after the nuke.
I don't get why the mods are not more active in this thread. Why is it allowed to make personal attacks on someone when it is a well-writen explanation of what the change will do to late game Ghost play? Just because of his "reputation"?
Anyway, don't think that it should be called a nerf. It is a change and it will change strategies. We might get new ones out of it, and old ones will go away. It keeps the game interesting. Late-game nuke play is not all that fun anyway, playing hide and seek.
I always thought this change was to be implemented as a buff. I see it this way. TvP (but also TvZ when terrans realise it's impossible to go vs ultra/ling/infestor without some snipes/emps) it is meant to give your ghost survivability while he casts.
Let's take a standard fight for example. If you cast emps and the enemy does not back off, your ghosts are dead in 90% of the fights because the run out of energy and reveal themselves, even if you positioned them perfectly and far away from the enemy detector. 5 ghosts is a reasonable number to have, right? 1000/500 and a lot of building time down the drain. Also dead ghosts cannot be regenerating energy waiting for the next fight.
Why is this going to be better after the change? Because after sniping and emping to your heart's content, your ghosts will not run out of energy and reveal themselves. You have a (quite large) set amount of time in which your ghosts are invisible, period. And meticulous scanning will reveal the enemy detector's position and moving patterns so you can use the ghosts effectively without them getting at such a large risk.
In other words they can be used BEFORE the fight, because you know if they don't have detection at that exact point (and you should know that by scans) they will unleash their spells and get back safely. This change is implemented because now at most cases the ghosts are going to a suicide mission if they spend their energy.
On the other hand, yes nuking will be nerfed and it is really sad that it will. As an average I'd be betting that ghosts are going to be far more effective than now, but everyone would love to see nukes being more mainstream. I really hope the devs take a look at this. I mean, Avilo has a point about nuking a half map split zerg being practically impossible. He is not right about this being a general terran nerf.
does it matter if the the OP come off kinda whiney? I mean in the end, he right. This change is really stupid. And according to the stuff I can find, this was indeed intended to be a buff but it definitely a nerf. When they are trying ot nerf something and it actually nerfing, then it clearly wrong.
On July 28 2012 17:49 Notfragile wrote: I always thought this change was to be implemented as a buff. I see it this way. TvP (but also TvZ when terrans realise it's impossible to go vs ultra/ling/infestor without some snipes/emps) it is meant to give your ghost survivability while he casts.
Let's take a standard fight for example. If you cast emps and the enemy does not back off, your ghosts are dead in 90% of the fights because the run out of energy and reveal themselves, even if you positioned them perfectly and far away from the enemy detector. 5 ghosts is a reasonable number to have, right? 1000/500 and a lot of building time down the drain. Also dead ghosts cannot be regenerating energy waiting for the next fight.
Why is this going to be better after the change? Because after sniping and emping to your heart's content, your ghosts will not run out of energy and reveal themselves. You have a (quite large) set amount of time in which your ghosts are invisible, period. And meticulous scanning will reveal the enemy detector's position and moving patterns so you can use the ghosts effectively without them getting at such a large risk.
In other words they can be used BEFORE the fight, because you know if they don't have detection at that exact point (and you should know that by scans) they will unleash their spells and get back safely. This change is implemented because now at most cases the ghosts are going to a suicide mission if they spend their energy.
On the other hand, yes nuking will be nerfed and it is really sad that it will. As an average I'd be betting that ghosts are going to be far more effective than now, but everyone would love to see nukes being more mainstream. I really hope the devs take a look at this. I mean, Avilo has a point about nuking a half map split zerg being practically impossible. He is not right about this being a general terran nerf.
If you only have 5 ghosts in your comp then they're very replaceable. In fact it's probably better to let them die since new ones come out with Mobius Reactor.
No one gets ghosts for snipe anymore. This would have been a buff back in the days where you'd see Mvp rocking like 20 ghost armies.
If your ghosts are there for EMPs, once the EMPs are cast they're kinda pointless to focus on anyway. Rather spend APM keeping other units (tanks or bioball) alive.
On July 28 2012 17:49 Notfragile wrote: I always thought this change was to be implemented as a buff. I see it this way. TvP (but also TvZ when terrans realise it's impossible to go vs ultra/ling/infestor without some snipes/emps) it is meant to give your ghost survivability while he casts.
Let's take a standard fight for example. If you cast emps and the enemy does not back off, your ghosts are dead in 90% of the fights because the run out of energy and reveal themselves, even if you positioned them perfectly and far away from the enemy detector. 5 ghosts is a reasonable number to have, right? 1000/500 and a lot of building time down the drain. Also dead ghosts cannot be regenerating energy waiting for the next fight.
Why is this going to be better after the change? Because after sniping and emping to your heart's content, your ghosts will not run out of energy and reveal themselves. You have a (quite large) set amount of time in which your ghosts are invisible, period. And meticulous scanning will reveal the enemy detector's position and moving patterns so you can use the ghosts effectively without them getting at such a large risk.
In other words they can be used BEFORE the fight, because you know if they don't have detection at that exact point (and you should know that by scans) they will unleash their spells and get back safely. This change is implemented because now at most cases the ghosts are going to a suicide mission if they spend their energy.
On the other hand, yes nuking will be nerfed and it is really sad that it will. As an average I'd be betting that ghosts are going to be far more effective than now, but everyone would love to see nukes being more mainstream. I really hope the devs take a look at this. I mean, Avilo has a point about nuking a half map split zerg being practically impossible. He is not right about this being a general terran nerf.
On July 28 2012 08:04 ROOTCatZ wrote: Avilo nothing you say has any relevance in my eyes, every race is getting changes in HotS, the zerg units are likely the most useless and will have less impact, while the hydra and ultra buffs are nice, the other 2 aren't v good. ALL you ever do, since the beta is complain about stuff you don't even understand, its pathetic, when terran was broken you and lzgamer were the only 2 terrans to deny it. these days ALL you do is rage and qq about zerg and protoss. I don't know what race you played in the game you played before, but if i had to guess it was the worst race. Reality is avilo, you need to look into your flaws, your mechanics aren't actually terrible, you're just really bad and your decision making is not very good, watching your stream is painful on the brain and you need to realize that its you who sucks, not the game. the sooner, the better.
Note: I don't think of myself as levels above avilo or anything in that regard, even though i very rarely lose to him, and not cause zerg is op or blabla, i mean i rarely lose to him for the last 2 years. But the harsh reality here is every race has its strengths and weaknesses and if we're not looking into our own mistakes and blaming blizzard about everything, we're never gonna improve. Avilo, learn to type 'gg' after gettin pwnd and learn to acknowledge your mistakes instead of blaming 'browder' for your sucking.
What the fuck? I expect better from you catz. Did you just come here to brag or something? This thread has nothing to do with "QQing," let alone you or me personally, why you would come here and bash me is beyond me. This thread has to do with a terrible design change. If they changed the infestor to be similar with a cool down on burrow...it would be just as bad of a design decision, and an unnecessary change.
Or did you just post in this thread to try to discredit me/give credibility to the 1 liners in this thread? Very low. You literally said nothing about the topic at hand anywhere in your post lmao.
Take your mindless bashing to reddit where it belongs, stop trying to derail this this thread is not about me, it's about what blizzard has said they are considering doing to the ghost.
p.s. I thought it was cute yesterday that after my 3 hr stream session of the HOTS beta in the morning you had obviously been watching my stream and then got the idea to stream HOTS beta custom games from my stream I was flattered.
sorry bro but this a QQ thread, ur just talking about how stupid it is for ghosts to get nerfed without even understanding the reasoning behind it. if this were an argument u would have provided examples in order to prove your point, which sadly u didnt do :[
So what would be the reasoning for the ghost cloak to be nerfed then? Too many protosses losing 30 probes to a nuke in silver league? Because I cant think of any other reason. What do you think?
On July 28 2012 10:27 Bippzy wrote: Actually in a stalemate situation really lategame ghosts have never been correctly dealt with imo because its so hard to deal with them. Besides that, which can be written off as making the game take more skill, i feel complaining about a hots change when frickin hellions will be able to become firebats is too pre-emptive. You talk about it from a WOL perspective when it is for hots
I hear ya, but has cloaked units ever been a problem? Would they be more of a problem in HotS? I dont see why. Each race has a building and a unit to detect cloaked units. Even without that its still very possible to notice them on your screen and get detection asap. Plus theres fungal, EMP, Scans, obs take the snap of a finger to build and with spd upg they are boss. I think a player with any skill should be able to counter cloak well enough that changes to the cloak mechanic are not needed.
On one hand yes, it is completely counterable, the other hand dictates that in starcraft, the ends dont justify the means. What I mean by that is taking a situation that is completely managable for a race(tvz before queen patch, now ghosts) and changing the way it fundamentally works is terrible for those who would appreciate the current ghost mechanics of leaving ghosts around with enough energy to cloak a battlecruiser, and good for those who can accept the direction the developers want to take, with everything else considered(the main point of all the "stop whining" posts being a general lack of knowledge).
This is like making infestors slower, it is a nerf that is presented as a helpig hand to players, but it's totally fine and doesn't put the unit very far down from it's original self
On July 28 2012 17:30 Domus wrote: I don't get why the mods are not more active in this thread. Why is it allowed to make personal attacks on someone when it is a well-writen explanation of what the change will do to late game Ghost play? Just because of his "reputation"?
Anyway, don't think that it should be called a nerf. It is a change and it will change strategies. We might get new ones out of it, and old ones will go away. It keeps the game interesting. Late-game nuke play is not all that fun anyway, playing hide and seek.
I agree.
So many people jump on the Replicant, Shredder, Tempest, (and before then HotS in general) hate bandwagon before they got to even play HotS, but now all of a sudden everyone is saying "wait for the game" or "wait for the beta".
Again, the concept (changes that changes the concept) can always be talked about before the beta even starts.
Plus, the beta isn't that far away anyway, so starting to talk about it now isn't that bad of an idea.
I think it would be better to wait until the game is at least in beta before addressing these kinds of issues, for all we know the game could be entirely different then compared to how it is now and we cannot assume that any present changes will stay. When it's such a subtle change/nerf/call it what you want like this one waiting to see what the actual beta will look like is definitely the most reasonable thing to do.
On July 28 2012 19:55 Hyperionnn wrote: Complaning about balance even before beta is out
I immediately knew that this is a avilo thread
And how is the argumentation bad? You and lots of others are just saying that you dont want to warn Blizzard when they are about to do something obviously stupid. That this change is obviously terrible is easy to see when you look at the "I want to send my single Ghosts everywhere to nuke-harrass". This change is NOT terrible and a buff for "combat Ghosts" who cloak and then head off to snipe/EMP a number of Infestors or High Templars (you will have more energy for those secondary actions due to cloaking not draining energy). If you add these useages both together you end up with a NERF due to the Ghost being less useful overall. Due to having more energy you will also be much more vulnerable to Feedback and thus even the combat Ghost "buff" isnt that big and being unable to cloak for 60 seconds really negates that energy advantage in any game against Protoss.
So instead of dissing Avilo for his complaints about changes which arent in the game yet people should argue with his reasoning or shut up.
Terran players at the higher levels are the more mechanically sound players. There's more macro/micro involved in 1 Terran game than z/p combined. If they were to make the game balanced then we would likely see more Terran dominance as our skill/mechanics surpass that of our Z/P counterparts. Terran players need a disadvantage, such as being able to lose after completely outplaying an opponent if you will. Blizzard knows what they are doing, otherwise we would be winning everything.
On July 28 2012 17:49 Notfragile wrote: I always thought this change was to be implemented as a buff. I see it this way. TvP (but also TvZ when terrans realise it's impossible to go vs ultra/ling/infestor without some snipes/emps) it is meant to give your ghost survivability while he casts.
Let's take a standard fight for example. If you cast emps and the enemy does not back off, your ghosts are dead in 90% of the fights because the run out of energy and reveal themselves, even if you positioned them perfectly and far away from the enemy detector. 5 ghosts is a reasonable number to have, right? 1000/500 and a lot of building time down the drain. Also dead ghosts cannot be regenerating energy waiting for the next fight.
Why is this going to be better after the change? Because after sniping and emping to your heart's content, your ghosts will not run out of energy and reveal themselves. You have a (quite large) set amount of time in which your ghosts are invisible, period. And meticulous scanning will reveal the enemy detector's position and moving patterns so you can use the ghosts effectively without them getting at such a large risk.
In other words they can be used BEFORE the fight, because you know if they don't have detection at that exact point (and you should know that by scans) they will unleash their spells and get back safely. This change is implemented because now at most cases the ghosts are going to a suicide mission if they spend their energy.
On the other hand, yes nuking will be nerfed and it is really sad that it will. As an average I'd be betting that ghosts are going to be far more effective than now, but everyone would love to see nukes being more mainstream. I really hope the devs take a look at this. I mean, Avilo has a point about nuking a half map split zerg being practically impossible. He is not right about this being a general terran nerf.
If you think 5 ghosts are enough in a lategame tvp army, you are probably terrible at this game or a zerg player. 15 is a good number to start with, but still not optimal. You wanna have around 20-25. Ghosts become the main part of your army. Protoss doesn't have any unit that is good agains ghosts, except maybe for colossus, which die very fast to emp and mass viking.
lol avilo, just jump ship off this awful garbage game like every other decent player already has. it will never be balanced for terran because blizzard just listens to all the whiny 13 year old bitches like the ones posting in this thread :/ come play LoL a game that actually takes skill and is balanced it has way more tournaments and 4-5 times the viewers at any one time than sc2...sc2 will be dead in a year max cause of shitty design decisions by blizzard.
This thread would have come across better if Avilo had frames it as a discussion about the ghost change instead of "Another terran Nurf." The problem with ballance discussions is the intelligence of the discussion quickley degenerated into that of 3 year olds fighting over who broke the fire truck.
On July 28 2012 21:37 warwick wrote: lol avilo, just jump ship off this awful garbage game like every other decent player already has. it will never be balanced for terran because blizzard just listens to all the whiny 13 year old bitches like the ones posting in this thread :/ come play LoL a game that actually takes skill and is balanced it has way more tournaments and 4-5 times the viewers at any one time than sc2...sc2 will be dead in a year max cause of shitty design decisions by blizzard.
Hmm, you make a good point, but yes, let's see where the game goes with the beta and its eventual release - hopefully this will be one of those things that are changed - but heck, for all we know, this could be perfectly balanced in the HOTS metagame. Just too soon to be too worried, but a valid point for now.
We need to see HotS in its entirety to say anything about balance. Local imbalance is intended. Even if the Ghost is nerfed, that doesn't mean Terran got nerfed as a race. The analysis can be "objective" as Avilo claims but still false in its conclusion.
On July 28 2012 05:10 avilo wrote: Do people want HOTS to be the best game possible? I certainly do, and yes, nothing is in stone, that does not mean it's not worth it to add in feedback/community feedback on things that will make the game better.
If the feedback is "Please make my race better" one gets suspicious.
On July 28 2012 23:33 [F_]aths wrote: We need to see HotS in its entirety to say anything about balance. Local imbalance is intended. Even if the Ghost is nerfed, that doesn't mean Terran got nerfed as a race. The analysis can be "objective" as Avilo claims but still false in its conclusion.
Changing a unit in such a way as to make one of their uses less viable is a bad idea and Avilo gets ridiculed by tons of people here without his arguments being discussed. The question is: How do those intended changes "improve" the game? He explained his side of the story quite well, but the opposition is just saying "oh wait for the beta" and that is ridiculous. Nuke harrass is fun, but rare already and with such a change it will be extinct.
On July 28 2012 05:10 avilo wrote: Do people want HOTS to be the best game possible? I certainly do, and yes, nothing is in stone, that does not mean it's not worth it to add in feedback/community feedback on things that will make the game better.
If the feedback is "Please make my race better" one gets suspicious.
Did he really ask for an improvement on the Ghosts or that they stay as they are? Complaining about nerfs isnt the same as asking for a buff.
You know someone a few pages ago mentioned how great BW was because of the multiple ways units could be used. This change again restricts what terrans can do with a ghost. We used to be able to harass SCVs and early marines with snipe - no more. Now late game nuking is mostly off the table.
But hey I can emp psionic or snipe them.
Ghosts are now a one hit wonder.
I'll also reiterate, as a bronze player this "buff" in no way helps me use ghosts.
How do we even know for sure that this change is in HotS? As far as I can tell the only evidence is from the HotS custom in WoL. Did someone see this at MLG or something?
mmm that is an really interesting point. Didn't thought the cooldown is longer then the cloak duration, that really seems to ruin the ability to nuke a bit deeper inside the opponents territory, something fairly easy to stop for the opponent anyway. My only issue is that this is fairly lategame, so if it is implemented it will take a long time till you see issues with this, as ghosts are currently underused anyway because of the micro insensitivity. So it will have high chances to make it through beta.
But nukes will still allow to push the opponents defense line away, but the option to split up the deathball with nukes really seems hindered.
On July 29 2012 01:03 FeyFey wrote: mmm that is an really interesting point. Didn't thought the cooldown is longer then the cloak duration, that really seems to ruin the ability to nuke a bit deeper inside the opponents territory, something fairly easy to stop for the opponent anyway. My only issue is that this is fairly lategame, so if it is implemented it will take a long time till you see issues with this, as ghosts are currently underused anyway because of the micro insensitivity. So it will have high chances to make it through beta.
But nukes will still allow to push the opponents defense line away, but the option to split up the deathball with nukes really seems hindered.
Exactly. This is one of those changes the developers would not be able to see down the line for quite a while because it's a change to lategame Terran, and not a lot of people currently have experience with lategame Terran to see the implications of a change to cloak.
I've played countless games into lategame and have a lot of experience with nuke harrassing in particular which is why I feel I know what I am talking about when I made this thread, and that the change would be a terrible design change.
Ironically, the developers want things to break up the deathball in HOTS, and lategame nuke multi-tasking harrass is currently one of those things in TvP/TvZ that forces the opponent to move their army somewhere else and multi-task. Unintentionally nerfing nuke harrass would be a travesty.
This is a terrible thread, and not because of the content of the OP, but the idiotic, ad-hominem responses, including ones by pro players.
"The game isn't even in beta yet".
Well, duh. But this is an actual design change proposed by Browder/Kim. It seems completely terrible. You don't have to consider it in light of a yet-nonexistent metagame and its balance implications. Blizzard certainly isn't considering it in light of that, as they've removed entire units from the game since then. You can consider it in a vacuum, just like we did the Replicant and the Shredder, and say it's a fundamentally bad idea.
The earlier we have feedback and reasoned discussion about proposed design changes in the expansion, the better.
The character assassination and flippant dismissal of even the possibility of reasoned discussion is shameful and worthy of reddit, not TL.
People who say wait for the beta to come out, you realize that this is a real proposed change? One they are REALLY considering making. Why does it upset you that Avilo makes a video that suggests that it is not a way to easily manage ghost energy like dustin browder thinks it will, and that it is actually a nerf? Why flame him for that?
On July 28 2012 21:37 warwick wrote: lol avilo, just jump ship off this awful garbage game like every other decent player already has. it will never be balanced for terran because blizzard just listens to all the whiny 13 year old bitches like the ones posting in this thread :/ come play LoL a game that actually takes skill and is balanced it has way more tournaments and 4-5 times the viewers at any one time than sc2...sc2 will be dead in a year max cause of shitty design decisions by blizzard.
On July 28 2012 21:37 warwick wrote: lol avilo, just jump ship off this awful garbage game like every other decent player already has. it will never be balanced for terran because blizzard just listens to all the whiny 13 year old bitches like the ones posting in this thread :/ come play LoL a game that actually takes skill and is balanced it has way more tournaments and 4-5 times the viewers at any one time than sc2...sc2 will be dead in a year max cause of shitty design decisions by blizzard.
Imagine. The game goes out live. And this stuff is reverted back to old style in first month, since this change makes nukes pretty much unusable in high level play.
A bronze level Zerg goes dies to 5 nukes falling all over his bases. He looks at patch notes, comes here and starts another thread about "terran imba, buff zerg plz". You want this? I'd rather see the game clean and nice, rather than seeing a balance change every 3 weeks.
I can't help but think this is an ingenious troll post or pure bannable QQ. Obviously you can't speculate on the balance of a game based on the change of a existing single unit without considering all the changes that will occur from the NEW units, for which we don't even yet have set skills/costs.
On July 28 2012 05:10 avilo wrote: I'd request the mods when they read this to ban the idiots that are posting below TL standards with their "fuck off" or "QQ" or "whine" I'd urge people to actually read the thread. If thorzain, jinro, or anyone else notable posted this you would not write it off before reading it.
The thing here is, they WOULD NOT post this in the first place..
On July 28 2012 21:37 warwick wrote: lol avilo, just jump ship off this awful garbage game like every other decent player already has. it will never be balanced for terran because blizzard just listens to all the whiny 13 year old bitches like the ones posting in this thread :/ come play LoL a game that actually takes skill and is balanced it has way more tournaments and 4-5 times the viewers at any one time than sc2...sc2 will be dead in a year max cause of shitty design decisions by blizzard.
It doesn't help that you used a video where you DID NOT know the change mechanics the ghost underwent from WoL to the HotS beta. I'm sure you wouldn't have mindlessly sacrificed and made terrible decisions with your ghosts had you known what you now know. Avilo, you are smart enough to try incorporating dropship ghost play, etc. I'd also think that it would be cool to lock down entrances to your base with mines, then when the enemy pushes, close the exits with some nukes. I think the nerf is intended and completely fine due to the massive amount of spacial control utilities terran has just received with the implementations of the mines. I believe that with the new utility of mines, offensive nukes have been buffed an although unexplored, incredible margin.
On July 29 2012 02:13 yeint wrote: This is a terrible thread, and not because of the content of the OP, but the idiotic, ad-hominem responses, including ones by pro players.
"The game isn't even in beta yet".
Well, duh. But this is an actual design change proposed by Browder/Kim. It seems completely terrible. You don't have to consider it in light of a yet-nonexistent metagame and its balance implications. Blizzard certainly isn't considering it in light of that, as they've removed entire units from the game since then. You can consider it in a vacuum, just like we did the Replicant and the Shredder, and say it's a fundamentally bad idea.
The earlier we have feedback and reasoned discussion about proposed design changes in the expansion, the better.
The character assassination and flippant dismissal of even the possibility of reasoned discussion is shameful and worthy of reddit, not TL.
I agree that early feedback is absolutely necessary; avilo has offered food for thought. Unfortunately, people have been given a forum where there's opportunity to lash out at someone, basically with little to no repercussions. If these people were wise, they would avoid reading threads posted by someone they dislike so as not to give them importance.
By the way, you realize that a great majority of TL posters are the same immature posters (including ~cough~ pros) that comment on reddit, right? It's a pity that mods feel "forced" to allow this type of behavior.
I suppose it's possible to figure out a way to keep the late game nuke.
The community has figured out these kind of changes before.
I mean Zergs figured out that multiple queens were really good at holding off early hellion pressure. Coupled with good overlord scouting surving into the middle game became doable.
Toss's figured out that double forge upgrades are really good to survive against MMM in the middle game. Not to mention how good warp prism harrass could be. Plus lots of Obs for scouting T.
Terrans can probably figure out a way to nuke without changing the Ghost into a 200/100 baneling by ourselves. Right?
Hilarious whine. it costs nothing but a scan to kill the ability to defend from ghosts no matter how many obs you have and they die automatically to vikings and or marines. TvP is a joke and this isnt really gonna help, you dont have to be cloaked to emp the entire protoss army and leave them at half health for the cost of energy.
It is true that people should look at the message and not the messenger, but this is like a "boy who cried wolf" situation. You can't be surprised that people are not excited to hear a balance opinion from someone with a history of balance whining, immaturity, and BM.
This message should not be ignored because it is from Avilo, but this doesn't even become an issue if he works on his reputation.
Srsly, i think its better this way why ? 1. When you want to Emp HT, you only need 25 energy to cloak, right now you need 25+ energy in cloak which is usually 10+ to get to the HT or on good spot to drop Emp, its ok if your ghost have 200 energy, but in Hots you will be able to cloak and emp with 100 energy and sometimes even happens to me that cloak burn my energy below 75 sec before i wan to emp which is the most frustrating thing to me. 2. You can still land nuke in cloak 3. To cloak ghost in hots should cost then 25 + 30s worth of energy which would be 1e*(30s/0.9energy per second)=33.33 total of 58.3, but it has CD that is true not really big tho, only thing you can't do is go with 200 energy ghost from your base to his cloaked and drop nuke, you will have to cloak by his base. And we don't even know the price to research cloak if its going down from 150/150 to 100/100 its awesome buff if u ask me :D
And yes i hope they won't change it because its in beta and its great buff if u ask me. I don't really use nukes much mybe that is why i like this change.
Edit: If you think he will see ghost from drop, well he can't notice if from minimap if u drop him can then inmidiately cloak him or drop at some edge where he has no vision.
The language Browder uses clearly portrays awareness of the strategic disadvantage of this change. It's impossible to inform Blizzard of what they already know.
Furthermore whether or not this change is unnecessary for balancing late game HOTS Terran is impossible for us to tell. It's reasonable to assume that Blizzard believes it is necessary. It is extremely unreasonable to assume that Blizzard knowingly nerfed the ghost without overall balance in mind.
If I were a Blizzard developer, I'd either be insulted by how stupid you think I am or simply laugh off how ridiculous you are. Either way this is an embarrassing installment for SC2's community.
On July 28 2012 21:37 warwick wrote: lol avilo, just jump ship off this awful garbage game like every other decent player already has. it will never be balanced for terran because blizzard just listens to all the whiny 13 year old bitches like the ones posting in this thread :/ come play LoL a game that actually takes skill and is balanced it has way more tournaments and 4-5 times the viewers at any one time than sc2...sc2 will be dead in a year max cause of shitty design decisions by blizzard.
On July 29 2012 05:30 Liquid`NonY wrote: The language Browder uses clearly portrays awareness of the strategic disadvantage of this change. It's impossible to inform Blizzard of what they already know.
Furthermore whether or not this change is unnecessary for balancing late game HOTS Terran is impossible for us to tell. It's reasonable to assume that Blizzard believes it is necessary. It is extremely unreasonable to assume that Blizzard knowingly nerfed the ghost without overall balance in mind.
If I were a Blizzard developer, I'd either be insulted by how stupid you think I am or simply laugh off how ridiculous you are. Either way this is an embarrassing installment for SC2's community.
Except they don't know this otherwise they would not be saying that the new change would make the ghost easier to use or better for players. I agree it's unreasonable to assume they knowingly were nerfing the ghost, which is why in the original post and OP you can notice I said they are most likely unintentionally nerfing the ghost cloaking and nuking capabilities in late game. It seems they only factored in energy conservation and making the game easier for lower level players.
From your first statement, I assume you agree with a lot of the points I've made here and that the change would be a strategic disadvantage aka a bad design/balance change for the ghost.
The only way in which this thread is an "embarrassing installment for SC2's community" is the amount of high profile players that have come into this thread resorting to ad hominem attacks, insults, and name calling without contributing actual input to the thread.
Otherwise, I think it generated a lot of good discussion and did bring to light a change blizzard was intending to put through that would not be good for the game.
Very embarrassing. Even noobs to this site expect better. They may be completely aware of the changes impact on the game but that doesnt mean its a good idea. Why cant we talk about this stuff on a forum dedicated to the game? Instead theres just MORE bashing. This has nothing to do with balance, it was said several times its a bad change regardless of match up. I actually wanted to see a good discussion on this. Even if there was no expansion coming we could still have a good discussion on things like this.
If blizzard said they were adding heroes to sc2 id like to see you all say "wait for the beta" and not theory craft or make posts about it. This sort of mentality just isnt good for discussion which i assumed was what this site was for. Im starting to wonder. Its more like lurkers waiting to jump all over anyone with any sort of opinion and its sad that this has been encouraged.
Late game nuke play is entertaining, hopefully it will be an option in the game after HotS. They might want to think about reverting this change. Off topic, I hate when people try to sound smarter than they are, and fail.
On July 28 2012 05:06 Roxor9999 wrote: Beta not out ------> complain about balance ??????
This ! Plus the fact that there is also a buff on the Ghost
Cloak the Ghost in WOL and Snipe several things, like Templars or even Broodlords, so, The Ghost will have less snipes available compared to HotS, since in HotS the Energy does increase while being cloaked. I guess that's why Blizzard said that this will be a buff.
No offense to Avilo, but nothing is final until HotS is out and several patches are done. No need to make (in my opinion) senseless threads about a game which is not even out yet.
I actually do not have much of an opinion of the ghost because tbh I do not play high level. It is definitely a nerf from the WOL ghost version but as others have pointed out it may be fine in HOTS balance, its not even beta yet so lets see how it goes.
What I would like to say is that Avilo, you basically piss people off in gaming communities because you never give credit to anyone who beats you. Its always "race x is imba", "they used a bad build and got lucky" etc. Idra is douchey like that aswell but gets away with it because at one time he was competing at the highest level of sc2, but still manages to have a lot of haters. So do not be surprised when you have people ready to flame you. You was the same in RA3, pissing off the best players telling them about "the skill differential" among top players, so maybe this is just you.
I watched your stream and overall you seem like a decent guy. Just you have a pretty bad attitude towards your opponents in gaming, which is fine, its up to you, but it will give you haters.
On July 29 2012 06:46 Swift118 wrote: I actually do not have much of an opinion of the ghost because tbh I do not play high level. It is definitely a nerf from the WOL ghost version but as others have pointed out it may be fine in HOTS balance, its not even beta yet so lets see how it goes.
What I would like to say is that Avilo, you basically piss people off in gaming communities because you never give credit to anyone who beats you. Its always "race x is imba", "they used a bad build and got lucky" etc. Idra is douchey like that aswell but gets away with it because at one time he was competing at the highest level of sc2, but still manages to have a lot of haters. So do not be surprised when you have people ready to flame you. You was the same in RA3, pissing off the best players telling them about "the skill differential" among top players, so maybe this is just you.
I watched your stream and overall you seem like a decent guy. Just you have a pretty bad attitude towards your opponents in gaming, which is fine, its up to you, but it will give you haters.
Great great points, I agree in pretty much every aspect you have listed there
On July 29 2012 06:34 GMonster wrote: Game is not even out, why is this even a topic? Remember that thing the shredder everyone was freaking out about? yeah not even in the game anymore.
I don't understand what is so overwhelmingly wrong with sharing an opinion on how some units are going to work. The whole point of alpha and beta is to get feedback. Feedback includes people making arguments about how overpowered or underpowered certain units can be in various situations, which can be read by Blizzard and taken under consideration. Its true that it could change, but why take the chance? If people want to point these things out then all the more power to them. They're not making any definite statements about the end-game balance, no one has ever made statements to that effect.
On July 28 2012 05:21 avilo wrote: Simply don't change it. It's that simple.
Um, why? Because you're already used to them the way they are?
Your entire thread was about "oh no don't nerf Terran they're too weak" or "I do this thing I won't be able to do anymore". At no point did you weigh the concept as if you were choosing them from scratch.
Seriously, the game is getting a bunch of new units and will go through a host of balance changes through the entire beta. "Nerfs" and "buffs" don't work additively.
Personally I always thought the way Ghosts/Banshees cloak (and in bw as well) was pretty stupid. Managing mana is kind of a nuisance to begin with on regular spellcasters, suddenly with the ghost method you have to weigh considerations like, how long do I need to be cloaked for? what am I going to do once I get there? will i have enough mana to do what I need to do? will I have enough mana to get out? they won't be generating mana during this period either... where will that leave me in 5-10 minutes?
Managing a group of multiple ghosts makes this even more of a nightmare...
The funny thing is, I would actually consider the change overall a buff. Ignoring the argument that it would be easier to handle the ghosts, they spend 25 energy in one go and then immediately start regenerating energy. This basically means that cloak becomes significantly more mana efficient.
I guess from your perspective the only design changes that are acceptable is if everything stays exactly the same except for super simple buffs, like +20 dmg to all avilo units..
On July 29 2012 06:34 GMonster wrote: Game is not even out, why is this even a topic? Remember that thing the shredder everyone was freaking out about? yeah not even in the game anymore.
i dont understand the logic you are using.
why exactly, should people not give feedback just because the game isnt available to be bought? its been shown off for months and been played at events repeatedly? people have had the chance to see atleast partially how the changes affect the game.
now it would be insane to say ghosts change is bad to any degree of certainty, but its just as crazy to dismiss talking about it, as if talking about something is ever bad.
Managing mana is a nuisance? Well so is micro, macro, sending workers to mine, etc, but some of us want a game with a ridiculously high skill ceiling, which by definition means lots of nuisances for you.
I'm glad Blizzard is making you happy at the expense of the game design and top level spectating, since now everyone can do Jangbi-esque storms, etc and things will be getting easier still.
Can we just ignore this kid from here on out after this post? He is a blizzard forumer who constantly whines about balance. This game is not even in beta and he is already whining. Goodness..
Nukes are some of the biggest crowdpleasers... if the cloak is indeed changed in HotS to 30 seconds duration with 1 minute cooldown, I fear the already low number of games we see nukes being utilised will shrink to... eh, nothingness?
On July 29 2012 05:30 Liquid`NonY wrote: The language Browder uses clearly portrays awareness of the strategic disadvantage of this change. It's impossible to inform Blizzard of what they already know.
Furthermore whether or not this change is unnecessary for balancing late game HOTS Terran is impossible for us to tell. It's reasonable to assume that Blizzard believes it is necessary. It is extremely unreasonable to assume that Blizzard knowingly nerfed the ghost without overall balance in mind.
If I were a Blizzard developer, I'd either be insulted by how stupid you think I am or simply laugh off how ridiculous you are. Either way this is an embarrassing installment for SC2's community.
Just like your rant when the concept of the Replicant was announced? (No unit stats, no tech tree, no playable demo, either.)
I'm thinking of a word, and it starts with an H...
Avilo has actual facts and replays to support his case that this is a bad design and makes nukes irrelevant.
You had an animated drawing and some theory crafting to base YOUR rant on.
On July 29 2012 06:34 GMonster wrote: Game is not even out, why is this even a topic? Remember that thing the shredder everyone was freaking out about? yeah not even in the game anymore.
i dont understand the logic you are using.
why exactly, should people not give feedback just because the game isnt available to be bought? its been shown off for months and been played at events repeatedly? people have had the chance to see atleast partially how the changes affect the game.
now it would be insane to say ghosts change is bad to any degree of certainty, but its just as crazy to dismiss talking about it, as if talking about something is ever bad.
Giving feedback is futile as no one is looking for it and no one will read it. Feedback aimed towards Blizzard shouldn't be necessary to repost to team liquid in the SC2 general forum (imo). The whole topic is based upon Blizzard changing this without realizing it's a nerf (making the bliz dev team hooting retards) or back to just fairly unnecessary. The game isn't even in beta. It's ridiculous to give feedback on that. People are told to chill out when there's a patch announced about a balance change that you don't like. In this thread people are fire up about a change in a game that's in alpha. We already know that the game will go through ages of alpha and beta testing before being released. Yet we're discussing this without even know whether it's still in the game or not. It's kind of pointless in every way I can think of, and doesn't really serve a purpose apart from giving terran players an opportunity to tell how worried they are.
On July 29 2012 05:30 Liquid`NonY wrote: The language Browder uses clearly portrays awareness of the strategic disadvantage of this change. It's impossible to inform Blizzard of what they already know.
Furthermore whether or not this change is unnecessary for balancing late game HOTS Terran is impossible for us to tell. It's reasonable to assume that Blizzard believes it is necessary. It is extremely unreasonable to assume that Blizzard knowingly nerfed the ghost without overall balance in mind.
If I were a Blizzard developer, I'd either be insulted by how stupid you think I am or simply laugh off how ridiculous you are. Either way this is an embarrassing installment for SC2's community.
Just like your rant when the concept of the Replicant was announced? (No unit stats, no tech tree, no playable demo, either.)
I'm thinking of a word, and it starts with an H...
Avilo has actual facts and replays to support his case that this is a bad design and makes nukes irrelevant.
You had an animated drawing and some theory crafting to base YOUR rant on.
Avilo.No 2? Or is this an alt account because anyone with half a brain knows Blizzard KNOWS what they are doing. The fact that he is whining about a design without thinking through WHY blizzard is doing it is just dumb,and HoTs is not released yet, there may be a reason for the nerf as you may be having a buff elsewhere. Blizzard has been in this industry longer then avilo has been playing the game. I say just let them do their job.
On July 28 2012 12:02 GHSTxJet wrote: If it upsets you that much just switch races.
This really isn't needed.
Please respond to the question at hand.
It's not needed, but its a GREAT idea. After switching to zerg from terran, I jumped 2 leagues in 2 weeks and haven't looked back. Once you sort of realize terrans are just gonna get nerfed, just get really good at ZvT and call it a day
You really think somebody will believe you? You just stated you are still a Terran player in one of your earlier post
LOL my heart is with terran cuz i've played it all these years, but these days, with work stress, it's a lot easier to play zerg. It's not just me, it's 5+ of my friends as well. There's a reason why I'm not maddened at all by the nerf, at this point, it really doesnt affect me anymore.
On July 28 2012 12:02 GHSTxJet wrote: If it upsets you that much just switch races.
This really isn't needed.
Please respond to the question at hand.
It's not needed, but its a GREAT idea. After switching to zerg from terran, I jumped 2 leagues in 2 weeks and haven't looked back. Once you sort of realize terrans are just gonna get nerfed, just get really good at ZvT and call it a day
You really think somebody will believe you? You just stated you are still a Terran player in one of your earlier post
LOL my heart is with terran cuz i've played it all these years, but these days, with work stress, it's a lot easier to play zerg. It's not just me, it's 5+ of my friends as well. There's a reason why I'm not maddened at all by the nerf, at this point, it really doesnt affect me anymore.
Cool, my 100+ friends all switched to terran. Because of work stress, we find it easier to play terran. Nerf doesn't affect me though since I am focusing on solving the problem instead of hoping blizzard finds my comment and think "hey! we should buff terran since this guy says so"
On July 29 2012 05:30 Liquid`NonY wrote: The language Browder uses clearly portrays awareness of the strategic disadvantage of this change. It's impossible to inform Blizzard of what they already know.
Furthermore whether or not this change is unnecessary for balancing late game HOTS Terran is impossible for us to tell. It's reasonable to assume that Blizzard believes it is necessary. It is extremely unreasonable to assume that Blizzard knowingly nerfed the ghost without overall balance in mind.
If I were a Blizzard developer, I'd either be insulted by how stupid you think I am or simply laugh off how ridiculous you are. Either way this is an embarrassing installment for SC2's community.
Just like your rant when the concept of the Replicant was announced? (No unit stats, no tech tree, no playable demo, either.)
I'm thinking of a word, and it starts with an H...
Avilo has actual facts and replays to support his case that this is a bad design and makes nukes irrelevant.
You had an animated drawing and some theory crafting to base YOUR rant on.
Avilo.No 2? Or is this an alt account because anyone with half a brain knows Blizzard KNOWS what they are doing. The fact that he is whining about a design without thinking through WHY blizzard is doing it is just dumb,and HoTs is not released yet, there may be a reason for the nerf as you may be having a buff elsewhere. Blizzard has been in this industry longer then avilo has been playing the game. I say just let them do their job.
Jesus. You make fun of him for being an alt of Avilo? And how do we know you're not a Blizzard employee? They're not angels, they're a company run by humans, and humans are fallible. That's why it's fun and productive to actually talk and hash out arguments to figure out what the truth is. Don't put too much faith in a nebulous "Blizzard must be right" idea. In fact, it should be obvious that Blizzard isn't always right because they themselves retract some of their own decisions. This has already happened in HOTS alone with the loss of the Shredder.
On July 29 2012 05:30 Liquid`NonY wrote: The language Browder uses clearly portrays awareness of the strategic disadvantage of this change. It's impossible to inform Blizzard of what they already know.
Furthermore whether or not this change is unnecessary for balancing late game HOTS Terran is impossible for us to tell. It's reasonable to assume that Blizzard believes it is necessary. It is extremely unreasonable to assume that Blizzard knowingly nerfed the ghost without overall balance in mind.
If I were a Blizzard developer, I'd either be insulted by how stupid you think I am or simply laugh off how ridiculous you are. Either way this is an embarrassing installment for SC2's community.
Just like your rant when the concept of the Replicant was announced? (No unit stats, no tech tree, no playable demo, either.)
I'm thinking of a word, and it starts with an H...
Avilo has actual facts and replays to support his case that this is a bad design and makes nukes irrelevant.
You had an animated drawing and some theory crafting to base YOUR rant on.
Avilo.No 2? Or is this an alt account because anyone with half a brain knows Blizzard KNOWS what they are doing. The fact that he is whining about a design without thinking through WHY blizzard is doing it is just dumb,and HoTs is not released yet, there may be a reason for the nerf as you may be having a buff elsewhere. Blizzard has been in this industry longer then avilo has been playing the game. I say just let them do their job.
Jesus. You make fun of him for being an alt of Avilo? And how do we know you're not a Blizzard employee? They're not angels, they're a company run by humans, and humans are fallible. That's why it's fun and productive to actually talk and hash out arguments to figure out what the truth is. Don't put too much faith in a nebulous "Blizzard must be right" idea. In fact, it should be obvious that Blizzard isn't always right because they themselves retract some of their own decisions. This has already happened in HOTS alone with the loss of the Shredder.
yes, they DO retract their decisions. That's the point I am trying to make dude, they KNOW, if its wrong they will change it back just like the bunker changes and even this ghost change. They will change it back if its wrong, and its still in beta stage. Give them time, it might even be reverted.
On July 29 2012 05:30 Liquid`NonY wrote: The language Browder uses clearly portrays awareness of the strategic disadvantage of this change. It's impossible to inform Blizzard of what they already know.
Furthermore whether or not this change is unnecessary for balancing late game HOTS Terran is impossible for us to tell. It's reasonable to assume that Blizzard believes it is necessary. It is extremely unreasonable to assume that Blizzard knowingly nerfed the ghost without overall balance in mind.
If I were a Blizzard developer, I'd either be insulted by how stupid you think I am or simply laugh off how ridiculous you are. Either way this is an embarrassing installment for SC2's community.
Just like your rant when the concept of the Replicant was announced? (No unit stats, no tech tree, no playable demo, either.)
I'm thinking of a word, and it starts with an H...
Avilo has actual facts and replays to support his case that this is a bad design and makes nukes irrelevant.
You had an animated drawing and some theory crafting to base YOUR rant on.
Tyler actually had a point and indicated the flawed logic of the Replicant.
On July 29 2012 05:30 Liquid`NonY wrote: The language Browder uses clearly portrays awareness of the strategic disadvantage of this change. It's impossible to inform Blizzard of what they already know.
Furthermore whether or not this change is unnecessary for balancing late game HOTS Terran is impossible for us to tell. It's reasonable to assume that Blizzard believes it is necessary. It is extremely unreasonable to assume that Blizzard knowingly nerfed the ghost without overall balance in mind.
If I were a Blizzard developer, I'd either be insulted by how stupid you think I am or simply laugh off how ridiculous you are. Either way this is an embarrassing installment for SC2's community.
Just like your rant when the concept of the Replicant was announced? (No unit stats, no tech tree, no playable demo, either.)
I'm thinking of a word, and it starts with an H...
Avilo has actual facts and replays to support his case that this is a bad design and makes nukes irrelevant.
You had an animated drawing and some theory crafting to base YOUR rant on.
Tyler actually had a point and indicated the flawed logic of the Replicant.
Guess what unit isn't going to be in HOTS?
And Avilo doesn't have a point, so ghost change will happen in HOTS? What?
I think this design change is rather odd (less freedom and, arguably, less decision making for the player is generally not a good thing), but I fucking hate how this subject is joined by your usual balance whine. For me balance portion of this subject is akin to your thoughts on the change to upgrade costs for protoss ground...
On July 29 2012 05:30 Liquid`NonY wrote: The language Browder uses clearly portrays awareness of the strategic disadvantage of this change. It's impossible to inform Blizzard of what they already know.
Furthermore whether or not this change is unnecessary for balancing late game HOTS Terran is impossible for us to tell. It's reasonable to assume that Blizzard believes it is necessary. It is extremely unreasonable to assume that Blizzard knowingly nerfed the ghost without overall balance in mind.
If I were a Blizzard developer, I'd either be insulted by how stupid you think I am or simply laugh off how ridiculous you are. Either way this is an embarrassing installment for SC2's community.
Just like your rant when the concept of the Replicant was announced? (No unit stats, no tech tree, no playable demo, either.)
I'm thinking of a word, and it starts with an H...
Avilo has actual facts and replays to support his case that this is a bad design and makes nukes irrelevant.
You had an animated drawing and some theory crafting to base YOUR rant on.
Oh give me a break. It was entirely obvious the role of the replicant. There was no mystery about it. And it was clear to people like Tyler and others that it was a unit that was poorly designed and did not fit the protoss race. Blizz gave it a shot and decided that it didn't fit the game. The stats of the replicant don't matter, it does what it does. And what it does isn't good design for this game. That's all there is to it. Changing it's build time won't effect it being poor design will it?
We don't have any clue why they are changing the ghost. Avilo is assuming it was a mistake. You know there is a chance that blizzard makes balance changes for a reason and thinks about the effects? Maybe after testing this change terran lategame was too strong and something needed to be changed? Who knows. Do you get the point now? We don't know why blizzard is doing this. Not yet. We did know the role of the replicant.
I don't care what connection you have with Avilo, but no rational unbiased person would compare these things.
Avilo is right. This change will just reduce the number of available strats. I don't think that from now on making manual things automatic/simplified is a good thing for gameplay. Independently of balance I think this change is bad design.
On July 28 2012 05:21 avilo wrote: Simply don't change it. It's that simple.
Um, why? Because you're already used to them the way they are?
Your entire thread was about "oh no don't nerf Terran they're too weak" or "I do this thing I won't be able to do anymore". At no point did you weigh the concept as if you were choosing them from scratch.
Why not keep it unchanged?
The unanswered question which all of those who critisize Avilo are not answering is: Why is having fewer viable options for a unit good for a game? "Other units" and "overall game balance" dont make sense as an answer here, because no one can replace the Ghost as a launcher of nukes, so no one can really fill his spot and the VERY RARE nuke harrass is made rather unuseable with a 30 second cloak. Dumbed down gameplay is bad and I doubt the Ghost is the right place to start straightening up the game. People can easily prevent nuke harrass by building detectors and static defenses, so they shouldnt even whine about that.
The whole cloak change can easily be rescued by a simple addition:
Stationary ghosts are always cloaked through camouflage as long as they don't use their standard attack. Thus move them cloaked, wait for the cooldown camouflaged, then move on, wait for the cooldown, nuke, cloak out.
Or move them in position and use them to snipe passing stuff, then change position with the last 25 energy.
On July 28 2012 04:59 avilo wrote: Let's first look at the current ghost cloak, and the proposed change: Current ghost cloak: -Initial one time energy cost of 25 energy, and then the ghost stays cloaked for the remainder of it's energy pool, uncloaking once all energy has been depleted. Proposed HOTS ghost change: -Initial one time energy chost of 25 energy. Ghost begins to regain energy immediately after the initial cost. The ghost now is on a cool down and will uncloak at the end of that cool down, and will be prevented from re-cloaking for certain amount of time.
I don't play Terran and I'm a former balance whiner, complaining about Terran in the past (about 12 to 18 months ago) although I think for the most part, stuff is fairly balanced right now.
Surprisingly I agree with you though, this change (if true) is ridiculous. The cloak shouldn't turn off after some arbitrary period, it should stay on when you want it to be on. There's other ways to tweak this but I don't think that's a good move and personally I'm not convinced it's really something which needs looking at in the first place. I think there might be other problems elsewhere.
I hope your information is incorrect. Then again, it's not like a beta won't find if this is a ridiculous change and address that fairly quickly anyhow.
On July 28 2012 05:21 avilo wrote: Simply don't change it. It's that simple.
Um, why? Because you're already used to them the way they are?
Your entire thread was about "oh no don't nerf Terran they're too weak" or "I do this thing I won't be able to do anymore". At no point did you weigh the concept as if you were choosing them from scratch.
Seriously, the game is getting a bunch of new units and will go through a host of balance changes through the entire beta. "Nerfs" and "buffs" don't work additively.
Personally I always thought the way Ghosts/Banshees cloak (and in bw as well) was pretty stupid. Managing mana is kind of a nuisance to begin with on regular spellcasters, suddenly with the ghost method you have to weigh considerations like, how long do I need to be cloaked for? what am I going to do once I get there? will i have enough mana to do what I need to do? will I have enough mana to get out? they won't be generating mana during this period either... where will that leave me in 5-10 minutes?
Managing a group of multiple ghosts makes this even more of a nightmare...
The funny thing is, I would actually consider the change overall a buff. Ignoring the argument that it would be easier to handle the ghosts, they spend 25 energy in one go and then immediately start regenerating energy. This basically means that cloak becomes significantly more mana efficient.
I guess from your perspective the only design changes that are acceptable is if everything stays exactly the same except for super simple buffs, like +20 dmg to all avilo units..
Don't not comment on things you don't understand. This is absolutely a Ghost nerf. It's objective fact for several reasons outlined many times, and for you to actually call this is a buff is insulting to the readers of TL who have to put up with reading your post. As Avilo says: read before you write.
On July 29 2012 10:55 ImNightmare wrote: Can we just ignore this kid from here on out after this post? He is a blizzard forumer who constantly whines about balance. This game is not even in beta and he is already whining. Goodness..
Why are people writing things like this not getting bans?
If I were a Blizzard developer, I'd either be insulted by how stupid you think I am or simply laugh off how ridiculous you are. Either way this is an embarrassing installment for SC2's community.
what does this even mean, blizzard devs/balance team fucking up and not even owning up to it wouldn't be a first nor a last
If I were a Blizzard developer, I'd either be insulted by how stupid you think I am or simply laugh off how ridiculous you are. Either way this is an embarrassing installment for SC2's community.
what does this even mean, blizzard devs/balance team fucking up and not even owning up to it wouldn't be a first nor a last
Include the rest of his post and don't quote him out of context, maybe.
If I were a Blizzard developer, I'd either be insulted by how stupid you think I am or simply laugh off how ridiculous you are. Either way this is an embarrassing installment for SC2's community.
what does this even mean, blizzard devs/balance team fucking up and not even owning up to it wouldn't be a first nor a last
LOL indeed. As if Blizzard always knows what they are doing. We "enjoyed" 5 rax reaper TvZ too much and infestors pwning everything (which was reverted). Point is: Blizzard has fucked up in the past, everybody needs to be aware regardless of what race they play not because it may happen, but because it has happened.
Don't cry about being nerfed in a game that isnt even in beta yet.
there will be new units, new designs, new maps, new strategies, and a lot of balance patches to go with them along the way.
maybe it will end up being weaker than it is now, or maybe it wont. you don't, and CAN'T know. so give it a rest. you already piss off enough people with your sore attitude as it is.
the state of the game could potentially be completely different in Hots than it is now. so stop chaos theory-crafting!
The change doesn't make sense. The ghost is a really expensive unit. Why would you take the ability to cloak at will It would make them much easier to feedback. That said, the game isnt even out in beta yet. i guess avilo just wanted us to know earler.
On July 29 2012 10:55 ImNightmare wrote: Can we just ignore this kid from here on out after this post? He is a blizzard forumer who constantly whines about balance. This game is not even in beta and he is already whining. Goodness..
Why are people writing things like this not getting bans?
That was my question and the answer I received was, in essence, that mods are afraid. That's all too sad.
It's difficult for me to comprehend the mentality of those who simply come into a thread to bash its creator and offer absolutely nothing to the thread. It's likewise difficult to understand why it is that when someone suggests a possible flaw in the game that people can't discuss it without becoming vicious or making comments like "it's not even in beta yet." lol.
Obviously, Blizzard's only concern whilst all this hate and hurt and injustice goes on between SC players, is "how much money will the game generate?" They could care less about any of you and basically care less about your opinions, unless those opinions will cost them money.
There are potential flaws in HOTS, not just with Terran, and they will be worked out if Blizzard is aware of the flaws (world-wide flaws have been over-looked, by much brighter people). However, Blizzard will never know if someone doesn't speak up. So, once again, Avilo, thank you for bringing this to the attention of the community and for being strong enough to speak your mind despite the hate and small-mindedness of some of those in the community. Those who will, unfortunately, be unable to comprehend any of this.
On July 29 2012 05:30 Liquid`NonY wrote: The language Browder uses clearly portrays awareness of the strategic disadvantage of this change. It's impossible to inform Blizzard of what they already know.
Furthermore whether or not this change is unnecessary for balancing late game HOTS Terran is impossible for us to tell. It's reasonable to assume that Blizzard believes it is necessary. It is extremely unreasonable to assume that Blizzard knowingly nerfed the ghost without overall balance in mind.
If I were a Blizzard developer, I'd either be insulted by how stupid you think I am or simply laugh off how ridiculous you are. Either way this is an embarrassing installment for SC2's community.
Just like your rant when the concept of the Replicant was announced? (No unit stats, no tech tree, no playable demo, either.)
I'm thinking of a word, and it starts with an H...
Avilo has actual facts and replays to support his case that this is a bad design and makes nukes irrelevant.
You had an animated drawing and some theory crafting to base YOUR rant on.
Tyler actually had a point and indicated the flawed logic of the Replicant.
Guess what unit isn't going to be in HOTS?
So you're agreeing with me and not Tyler then. It is possible to identify bad design before even playing the game.
That makes Tyler a hypocrite. I'm sure he'll appreciate you pointing that out.
The new ghost design is simply a bad mechanic all around. It is possible for us to know this without the final release of the game.
On July 30 2012 09:00 Grapefruit wrote: Cool, when I made a thread to discuss this and another thing 4 days before this thread it got closed in less than 20 minutes.
On July 28 2012 05:21 avilo wrote: Simply don't change it. It's that simple.
Um, why? Because you're already used to them the way they are?
Your entire thread was about "oh no don't nerf Terran they're too weak" or "I do this thing I won't be able to do anymore". At no point did you weigh the concept as if you were choosing them from scratch.
Seriously, the game is getting a bunch of new units and will go through a host of balance changes through the entire beta. "Nerfs" and "buffs" don't work additively.
Personally I always thought the way Ghosts/Banshees cloak (and in bw as well) was pretty stupid. Managing mana is kind of a nuisance to begin with on regular spellcasters, suddenly with the ghost method you have to weigh considerations like, how long do I need to be cloaked for? what am I going to do once I get there? will i have enough mana to do what I need to do? will I have enough mana to get out? they won't be generating mana during this period either... where will that leave me in 5-10 minutes?
Managing a group of multiple ghosts makes this even more of a nightmare...
The funny thing is, I would actually consider the change overall a buff. Ignoring the argument that it would be easier to handle the ghosts, they spend 25 energy in one go and then immediately start regenerating energy. This basically means that cloak becomes significantly more mana efficient.
I guess from your perspective the only design changes that are acceptable is if everything stays exactly the same except for super simple buffs, like +20 dmg to all avilo units..
Don't not comment on things you don't understand. This is absolutely a Ghost nerf. It's objective fact for several reasons outlined many times, and for you to actually call this is a buff is insulting to the readers of TL who have to put up with reading your post. As Avilo says: read before you write.
On July 29 2012 10:55 ImNightmare wrote: Can we just ignore this kid from here on out after this post? He is a blizzard forumer who constantly whines about balance. This game is not even in beta and he is already whining. Goodness..
Why are people writing things like this not getting bans?
The reason mods aren't banning those is because of how Avilo wrote his thread. I imagine the original title was somewhere along the lines of "Blizzard is nerfing terran again". A mod changed the title to ghost design change concern. When he originally wrote the thread, I believe he was more focusing in on the nerf of the change rather than the design of it. He's also known to cry about balance even when terran was owning the GSL. That would be another good enough reason not to ban people for that because just about all his credibility is gone. I do believe the design of it is quite bad but perhaps it won't be as big of a nerf as people think it is. The game will change and they will tweak many things once it comes out just like they did in WOL. Perhaps down the road it could become a buff(I doubt it) but you'll never actually know until then.
I would actually like this change if they did 2 things. If they made it so there no cost on cloak and became purely cooldown. But if they did that, they would need to buff snipe back up. Maybe not to 40 damage but to like 30. That way snipe is better and you'll need to cloak, snipe, and get out fast or you'll lose them all. you'll also have extra snipes since cloak won't take away from your energy. It would still take away from nuking bases but then it's more of a risk to reward then. It won't be cloak 5 ghosts, nuke 5 bases and run away keeping them all.
The cloak change won't actually effect defensive nukes because there is no way the cloak will be that short of a period. Your army will be like 2 seconds away from the ghost.
On July 28 2012 05:21 avilo wrote: Simply don't change it. It's that simple.
Um, why? Because you're already used to them the way they are?
Your entire thread was about "oh no don't nerf Terran they're too weak" or "I do this thing I won't be able to do anymore". At no point did you weigh the concept as if you were choosing them from scratch.
Seriously, the game is getting a bunch of new units and will go through a host of balance changes through the entire beta. "Nerfs" and "buffs" don't work additively.
Personally I always thought the way Ghosts/Banshees cloak (and in bw as well) was pretty stupid. Managing mana is kind of a nuisance to begin with on regular spellcasters, suddenly with the ghost method you have to weigh considerations like, how long do I need to be cloaked for? what am I going to do once I get there? will i have enough mana to do what I need to do? will I have enough mana to get out? they won't be generating mana during this period either... where will that leave me in 5-10 minutes?
Managing a group of multiple ghosts makes this even more of a nightmare...
The funny thing is, I would actually consider the change overall a buff. Ignoring the argument that it would be easier to handle the ghosts, they spend 25 energy in one go and then immediately start regenerating energy. This basically means that cloak becomes significantly more mana efficient.
I guess from your perspective the only design changes that are acceptable is if everything stays exactly the same except for super simple buffs, like +20 dmg to all avilo units..
Don't not comment on things you don't understand. This is absolutely a Ghost nerf. It's objective fact for several reasons outlined many times, and for you to actually call this is a buff is insulting to the readers of TL who have to put up with reading your post. As Avilo says: read before you write.
On July 29 2012 10:55 ImNightmare wrote: Can we just ignore this kid from here on out after this post? He is a blizzard forumer who constantly whines about balance. This game is not even in beta and he is already whining. Goodness..
Why are people writing things like this not getting bans?
The nerf is only related to Nuking and is actually a buff to combat EMPing and Snipe which is unnecessary in this particular way as it is. I don't agree with this change in it's core, because it limits, rather than expands the usage (or we are all just set in our ways too much and it's actually good) of ghosts, and everything like that is bad for the entire game.
But to call it blindly a nerf, without accounting other spells of the ghost, nor the entirety of changes in the entire EXPANSION (not limited to Terran) is both stupid and biased which is exactly how people view the OP to be.
On July 30 2012 09:00 Grapefruit wrote: Cool, when I made a thread to discuss this and another thing 4 days before this thread it got closed in less than 20 minutes.
Haha I love how chill closed it because "I don't think you need to open a new thread for two points" while this is open and for some reason very active with only one of those points ^^
Meh I think avilo brings up a good point. Although, late game nuke harass can be overwhelming to deal with. I think better players with better map awareness, scouting, and multitasking can handle nuke harass as it currently is.
On July 29 2012 20:17 Champi wrote: Don't cry about being nerfed in a game that isnt even in beta yet.
there will be new units, new designs, new maps, new strategies, and a lot of balance patches to go with them along the way.
maybe it will end up being weaker than it is now, or maybe it wont. you don't, and CAN'T know. so give it a rest. you already piss off enough people with your sore attitude as it is.
the state of the game could potentially be completely different in Hots than it is now. so stop chaos theory-crafting!
What i do know for a fact is that you cant CLOAK and then GO ACROSS THE MAP and then NUKE A BASE. You have to put ghosts in dropships pretty much and drop them BY their base and then nuke. Im gonna wait for the beta to come out before i start bitching about how that works though theres really no way we can know what will ACTUALLY end up happening because like nothing is figured out yet. The one thing i will say is that a 22range air unit is BULL.
On July 28 2012 23:33 [F_]aths wrote: We need to see HotS in its entirety to say anything about balance. Local imbalance is intended. Even if the Ghost is nerfed, that doesn't mean Terran got nerfed as a race. The analysis can be "objective" as Avilo claims but still false in its conclusion.
Changing a unit in such a way as to make one of their uses less viable is a bad idea and Avilo gets ridiculed by tons of people here without his arguments being discussed. The question is: How do those intended changes "improve" the game? He explained his side of the story quite well, but the opposition is just saying "oh wait for the beta" and that is ridiculous. Nuke harrass is fun, but rare already and with such a change it will be extinct.
On July 28 2012 05:10 avilo wrote: Do people want HOTS to be the best game possible? I certainly do, and yes, nothing is in stone, that does not mean it's not worth it to add in feedback/community feedback on things that will make the game better.
If the feedback is "Please make my race better" one gets suspicious.
Did he really ask for an improvement on the Ghosts or that they stay as they are? Complaining about nerfs isnt the same as asking for a buff.
I hate to play semantics but fighting a nerf is comparable to asking for a buff. The OP acts as if Terran gets weaker by an oversight of Blizzard. His argument is ridiculous because the beta gets balanced anyway. It is not that the game would ship with underpowered terran because of an oversight.
Does the OP really think that the alpha test don't see that it is hard to save a ghost once he called down a nuke? Even if somehow this would have been overlooked by the test team, it would be exposed in beta. And only with beta we as a community can begin to talk about overall balance which matters.
Nony gave a very good explanation in this thread. We can assume that the Blizzard developers know what they are doing. The assumption of the OP about an unintended nerf can be assumed wrong. I might add, if the OP would be complaining about a new game mechanic regarding the ghost he doesn't like, it would be okay. (However then we could ask if we need a new thread for anything one doesn't like in HotS.)
Your state "Changing a unit in such a way as to make one of their uses less viable is a bad idea" but you don't explain, why. Maybe in this case it is a good idea because the other uses of the ghosts are (in some way) buffed while only the most powerful use is slightly nerfed, perhaps fixing a balance concern?
I am purely speculating here. Maybe the ghost change increases the viewer's experience because in the end he gets to see snipe more often, and a nuke calldown adds the excitement of the question if the ghost can be saved? I don't think a one-dimensional argument like "to make one of their uses less viable is a bad idea" captures the entirety of the concerns about such changes.
It's kinda hard to really speculate on a game that isnt even in beta yet. Alot can happen in a short amount of time and i think we should wait for the beta to start QQing about the 3 respective races....
haha... oh wait, it is no longer funny... oh wait, it wasn't funny since... a long time. I really hate seeing another and another "terrible design change".
Not funny Blizzard!
Indeed, this is terrible design change. I am impressed, I really was naive enough to believe that there is no way T will be nerfed more.
I don't like this nerfes not because of me and my ladder performance. I am in Platinum, I am worst player ever and so on. But I am sick of watching almost excursively Zergs and Protosses in tournaments.
Of course balance whining is not welcomed here, so I'll just shut up
On July 30 2012 17:32 Asturas wrote: haha... oh wait, it is no longer funny... oh wait, it wasn't funny since... a long time. I really hate seeing another and another "terrible design change".
Not funny Blizzard!
Indeed, this is terrible design change. I am impressed, I really was naive enough to believe that there is no way T will be nerfed more.
I don't like this nerfes not because of me and my ladder performance. I am in Platinum, I am worst player ever and so on. But I am sick of watching almost excursively Zergs and Protosses in tournaments.
Of course balance whining is not welcomed here, so I'll just shut up
Then watch the GSL. Lots of terrans there doing well. We just saw one do awesomely at the GSTL finals.
On July 30 2012 17:32 Asturas wrote: Indeed, this is terrible design change. I am impressed, I really was naive enough to believe that there is no way T will be nerfed more.
Then watch the GSL. Lots of terrans there doing well. We just saw one do awesomely at the GSTL finals.
GSL/GSTL is a bad example - Korean Terrans are different. Korea is Terran. I am talking about NA/EU tournaments. Small and big, LANs and online events. But I guess this is thread about something else
No point in making any post about balance for a game that has not come out yet, not even the beta it out yet.. come on. Maybe the game will be completely different and you wont even use nukes lategame because other things are superior "counters" to lategame z/p.
Chill out with this until proof is out after everyone has researched all options in HoTS.
I know that, but it is not impressive when You compare it to new units for P and Z.
Umm no, it's pretty much the most powerful addition to the game. It's like the Spider Mine on crack. All I'm saying is that there's a whole landscape being reshaped. Be wary of getting hung up over a change that makes nuke harassment slightly harder, when your actual army composition is gonna be so well strengthened.
On July 30 2012 17:45 Kare wrote: No point in making any post about balance for a game that has not come out yet, not even the beta it out yet.. come on. Maybe the game will be completely different and you wont even use nukes lategame because other things are superior "counters" to lategame z/p.
Chill out with this until proof is out after everyone has researched all options in HoTS.
Despite the original title of this thread, it's not really a balance issue.
It's that Nuke play is almost definitely going to see a sharp reduction if this change goes through, and it's hardly used at all anyway. It basically moves the cost of a nuke from 100/100 to 300/200 because the Ghost will almost always die after one nuke, if he even makes it in. The real issue is that you basically only have like 10-15 seconds of cloak to get into position and actually start the nuke timer. And the Ghost walks slowly. People just aren't going to nuke very often at all. If there are better lategame strategies, great, excellent, but then people will Nuke even less and less.
Nukes are cool to use and to watch. They're incredibly entertaining, and rare, and this bad design change would take them almost completely out of the game.
I know that, but it is not impressive when You compare it to new units for P and Z.
Umm no, it's pretty much the most powerful addition to the game. It's like the Spider Mine on crack. All I'm saying is that there's a whole landscape being reshaped. Be wary of getting hung up over a change that makes nuke harassment slightly harder, when your actual army composition is gonna be so well strengthened.
Your argument is essentially because Ts are getting a strong unit that warrants one being gimped.
Why this argument is terrible in the context of this change: this change is flawed in design conceptually rather than just an overdone nerf. There were many better ways to do the latter if it was warranted. If nukes were indeed too strong in conjunction with HotS units, a flat nerf to the damage done / AOE or it's cast time might have been better.
This change risks gimping cloak nukes to Medivac energy upgrade status.
On July 28 2012 05:21 avilo wrote: Simply don't change it. It's that simple.
Um, why? Because you're already used to them the way they are?
Your entire thread was about "oh no don't nerf Terran they're too weak" or "I do this thing I won't be able to do anymore". At no point did you weigh the concept as if you were choosing them from scratch.
Seriously, the game is getting a bunch of new units and will go through a host of balance changes through the entire beta. "Nerfs" and "buffs" don't work additively.
Personally I always thought the way Ghosts/Banshees cloak (and in bw as well) was pretty stupid. Managing mana is kind of a nuisance to begin with on regular spellcasters, suddenly with the ghost method you have to weigh considerations like, how long do I need to be cloaked for? what am I going to do once I get there? will i have enough mana to do what I need to do? will I have enough mana to get out? they won't be generating mana during this period either... where will that leave me in 5-10 minutes?
Managing a group of multiple ghosts makes this even more of a nightmare...
The funny thing is, I would actually consider the change overall a buff. Ignoring the argument that it would be easier to handle the ghosts, they spend 25 energy in one go and then immediately start regenerating energy. This basically means that cloak becomes significantly more mana efficient.
I guess from your perspective the only design changes that are acceptable is if everything stays exactly the same except for super simple buffs, like +20 dmg to all avilo units..
Don't not comment on things you don't understand. This is absolutely a Ghost nerf. It's objective fact for several reasons outlined many times, and for you to actually call this is a buff is insulting to the readers of TL who have to put up with reading your post. As Avilo says: read before you write.
On July 29 2012 10:55 ImNightmare wrote: Can we just ignore this kid from here on out after this post? He is a blizzard forumer who constantly whines about balance. This game is not even in beta and he is already whining. Goodness..
Why are people writing things like this not getting bans?
The nerf is only related to Nuking and is actually a buff to combat EMPing and Snipe which is unnecessary in this particular way as it is. I don't agree with this change in it's core, because it limits, rather than expands the usage (or we are all just set in our ways too much and it's actually good) of ghosts, and everything like that is bad for the entire game.
But to call it blindly a nerf, without accounting other spells of the ghost, nor the entirety of changes in the entire EXPANSION (not limited to Terran) is both stupid and biased which is exactly how people view the OP to be.
Even the supposed buff can be bad when you play against a Protoss who is very good at Feedback. Since you will have more energy available - due to cloak not consuming energy while its running - you will take more damage when hit by Feedback. Sure, more energy seems to be good, but it could backfire and having to EMP your own units on purpose just so you have a low enough energy level not to die from Feedback seems like a bad thing.
On July 30 2012 17:45 Kare wrote: No point in making any post about balance for a game that has not come out yet, not even the beta it out yet.. come on. Maybe the game will be completely different and you wont even use nukes lategame because other things are superior "counters" to lategame z/p.
Chill out with this until proof is out after everyone has researched all options in HoTS.
Despite the original title of this thread, it's not really a balance issue.
It's that Nuke play is almost definitely going to see a sharp reduction if this change goes through, and it's hardly used at all anyway. It basically moves the cost of a nuke from 100/100 to 300/200 because the Ghost will almost always die after one nuke, if he even makes it in. The real issue is that you basically only have like 10-15 seconds of cloak to get into position and actually start the nuke timer. And the Ghost walks slowly. People just aren't going to nuke very often at all. If there are better lategame strategies, great, excellent, but then people will Nuke even less and less.
Nukes are cool to use and to watch. They're incredibly entertaining, and rare, and this bad design change would take them almost completely out of the game.
You name it "bad" design change because of that but you dont't look at the whole picture. This change would make the strongest ability harder to use but the other abilities easier to use. Overall it is not clear of the HotS ghost will provide more or less excitement compared to WoL.
Reading this thread makes me wonder why all those guys play games (and still are not good enough to earn money) instead of designing games, because they must be experts on that.
On July 30 2012 17:45 Kare wrote: No point in making any post about balance for a game that has not come out yet, not even the beta it out yet.. come on. Maybe the game will be completely different and you wont even use nukes lategame because other things are superior "counters" to lategame z/p.
Chill out with this until proof is out after everyone has researched all options in HoTS.
Despite the original title of this thread, it's not really a balance issue.
It's that Nuke play is almost definitely going to see a sharp reduction if this change goes through, and it's hardly used at all anyway. It basically moves the cost of a nuke from 100/100 to 300/200 because the Ghost will almost always die after one nuke, if he even makes it in. The real issue is that you basically only have like 10-15 seconds of cloak to get into position and actually start the nuke timer. And the Ghost walks slowly. People just aren't going to nuke very often at all. If there are better lategame strategies, great, excellent, but then people will Nuke even less and less.
Nukes are cool to use and to watch. They're incredibly entertaining, and rare, and this bad design change would take them almost completely out of the game.
You name it "bad" design change because of that but you fail to see the entire picture. This change would make the strongest ability harder to use but the other abilities easier to use. Overall it is not clear of the HotS ghost will provide more or less excitement compared to WoL.
Reading this thread makes me wonder why all those guys play games (and still are not good enough to earn money) instead of designing games, because they must be experts.
The other abilities are fine to use as they are ... and having a downtime in which you cant cloak - regardless of energy - is NOT what I would call "easier to use".
I know that, but it is not impressive when You compare it to new units for P and Z.
Umm no, it's pretty much the most powerful addition to the game. It's like the Spider Mine on crack. All I'm saying is that there's a whole landscape being reshaped. Be wary of getting hung up over a change that makes nuke harassment slightly harder, when your actual army composition is gonna be so well strengthened.
Your argument is essentially because Ts are getting a strong unit that warrants one being gimped.
Why this argument is terrible in the context of this change: this change is flawed in design conceptually rather than just an overdone nerf. There were many better ways to do the latter if it was warranted. If nukes were indeed too strong in conjunction with HotS units, a flat nerf to the damage done / AOE or it's cast time might have been better.
This change risks gimping cloak nukes to Medivac energy upgrade status.
No, it doesn't put cloak nukes anywhere near that degree of inutility. It just means you'll have to resort to drops and devote further APM/supply to nuke harassment. And no, it's not gimped that you can no longer just waypoint a Ghost from your base to a random part of the map in the late game and force the other player to scramble his APM and cycle through every part of the map to find a little red dot.
On July 30 2012 17:45 Kare wrote: No point in making any post about balance for a game that has not come out yet, not even the beta it out yet.. come on. Maybe the game will be completely different and you wont even use nukes lategame because other things are superior "counters" to lategame z/p.
Chill out with this until proof is out after everyone has researched all options in HoTS.
Despite the original title of this thread, it's not really a balance issue.
It's that Nuke play is almost definitely going to see a sharp reduction if this change goes through, and it's hardly used at all anyway. It basically moves the cost of a nuke from 100/100 to 300/200 because the Ghost will almost always die after one nuke, if he even makes it in. The real issue is that you basically only have like 10-15 seconds of cloak to get into position and actually start the nuke timer. And the Ghost walks slowly. People just aren't going to nuke very often at all. If there are better lategame strategies, great, excellent, but then people will Nuke even less and less.
Nukes are cool to use and to watch. They're incredibly entertaining, and rare, and this bad design change would take them almost completely out of the game.
You name it "bad" design change because of that but you fail to see the entire picture. This change would make the strongest ability harder to use but the other abilities easier to use. Overall it is not clear of the HotS ghost will provide more or less excitement compared to WoL.
Reading this thread makes me wonder why all those guys play games (and still are not good enough to earn money) instead of designing games, because they must be experts.
The other abilities are fine to use as they are ... and having a downtime in which you cant cloak - regardless of energy - is NOT what I would call "easier to use".
Are they fine or are we just already used to them? The cooldown which doesn't allow permanent cloaking for a longer time adds difficulty because one has to use encloak more strategically, but also eases the ghost handling because you don't have to manuall uncloak them to save energy.
But even if it would be an overall or even a complete nerf, it doesn't mean that it is unfair because all of the HotS changes need to be considered, and they are not even fixed yet.
On July 28 2012 04:59 avilo wrote: We all know how Terran has been doing lately. Terran does not need another nerf on top of every other nerf that the race has been hit with. Once again, I'll state that this all may be an oversight on Browder/Blizzard/Kim's part, and they may have not considered that their change to the ghost cloaking would be a huge nerf to Terran lategame...
I like how you manage to make it circle around to Terran is underpowered.
Terran is currently doing fine, they're sorting their shit out, that you would even presume to whine about a change that is 6 months off and not even remotely understood and try to link it to the current metagame is truely astounding. It leads me to believe that you just don't get it.
i feel like terran is weak atm, but i don't think we should worry too much about hots balance yet since it's not even in beta. Just focus on WoL for the time being
Only avilo would consider it necessary to complain about balance in an unreleased expansion pack on unconfirmed balance adjustments which are still subject to change prior to release...
You guys are taking it personally when he clearly has a valid point.
Shut up and talk about the change.
OT: I personally think it is a buff, because considering a ghost with moebius reactor and the time it takes to walk from the barracks to the fighting field, you'll be reaching 100 energy more or less. Then you need it for the fight: cloak, walk in, and shit, 74 energy... This has happened so much it's not even funny. However, regarding the walking and nuking, I'm not sure about the numbers... How long does it take to decloak? And how much longer does it take to cloak again?
On July 28 2012 04:59 avilo wrote: We all know how Terran has been doing lately. Terran does not need another nerf on top of every other nerf that the race has been hit with. Once again, I'll state that this all may be an oversight on Browder/Blizzard/Kim's part, and they may have not considered that their change to the ghost cloaking would be a huge nerf to Terran lategame...
I like how you manage to make it circle around to Terran is underpowered.
Terran is currently doing fine, they're sorting their shit out, that you would even presume to whine about a change that is 6 months off and not even remotely understood and try to link it to the current metagame is truely astounding. It leads me to believe that you just don't get it.
While the current state of Terran is very debatable, the problem is Blizzard's design philosophy. Look at the amount of things that have been nerfed since release; Reapers, Hellions, and early Marine aggression have all been nerfed into the ground in various ways (including buffing other races). NP was nerfed, Archon Toilet was nerfed, Void Ray was nerfed, research times on several things were nerfed or removed, HT was nerfed, and this list just keeps going. Now we're seeing Blizzard try to remove units (the Carrier). This is just terrible design philosophy; not only has Blizzard not been addressing the major problems with SC2 as an esport, but instead of maybe giving races very slight options/improvements to deal with things that are rather powerful (or just actually leaving the metagame alone for a decent amount of time so players can learn to adapt), they've constantly removed viability and possibility from the game. Now, we have a game that is in a pretty crappy state; PvZ is nearly unwatchable and is absolute shit, PvP is better but is still painful to watch, and PvZ/TvZ are a race to kill Zerg before Hive tech or the game is just over. Even TvP tends to be a race to kill the P before a strong late game kicks in.
On July 28 2012 04:59 avilo wrote: We all know how Terran has been doing lately. Terran does not need another nerf on top of every other nerf that the race has been hit with. Once again, I'll state that this all may be an oversight on Browder/Blizzard/Kim's part, and they may have not considered that their change to the ghost cloaking would be a huge nerf to Terran lategame...
I like how you manage to make it circle around to Terran is underpowered.
Terran is currently doing fine, they're sorting their shit out, that you would even presume to whine about a change that is 6 months off and not even remotely understood and try to link it to the current metagame is truely astounding. It leads me to believe that you just don't get it.
While the current state of Terran is very debatable, the problem is Blizzard's design philosophy.
The design and balance team took a bold approach to include very strong abilities. As it turned out, some were OP. Others were too weak. So the game got tweaked. The expansion will add now bold concepts, I doubt that all of the current additions survive until launch and even after the release we can expect some nerfs. You don't really criticise Blizzard for working on the game balance after the release?
In some ways this makes the game a bit harder which i am always for. Nuke harassment lategame is really easy to pull off now. Cloak and send ghosts to every base while it is quite hard to defend since u have a limited period of time and have to find the nukes. This change will still allow for nuke harass but will be a LOT harder to pull off. Good or bad is just an opinion imo. On the balance side i really cant imagine what lategame will look like in hots so i wont comment.
I dont see why people are getting angry at Avilo for talking about balance issues before HOTS is out. It doesnt hurt anyone and it might make Blizzard think twice about changing ghosts. I feel like people see a Avilo thread and get angry before they even click on it. Then they come in flaming and complaining. Hypocritical much?
On July 31 2012 08:27 sc2username wrote: I dont see why people are getting angry at Avilo for talking about balance issues before HOTS is out. It doesnt hurt anyone and it might make Blizzard think twice about changing ghosts. I feel like people see a Avilo thread and get angry before they even click on it. Then they come in flaming and complaining. Hypocritical much?
An important point is that ghosts might see even less usage in HOTS.
Mech units are far more resistant to storm, and they bring builtin AOE. Especially if you don't end up even upgrading bio, why would you be making the production/ghosts.
On July 31 2012 08:55 architecture wrote: An important point is that ghosts might see even less usage in HOTS.
Mech units are far more resistant to storm, and they bring builtin AOE. Especially if you don't end up even upgrading bio, why would you be making the production/ghosts.
For the new /cheer animation yo. You type /cheer and the ghost goes BOO and the opponent gets a heart attack. Free win, ezpz.
Nuke harassment lategame is really easy to pull off now
Considering the cost of ghost + cloak + nuke, it better not be too apm intensive if its gonna cost me that much gas to even make it a possiblity
I find it ironic that terrans usually complain that they don't have a good gas dump and all of the sudden you think it could be a possible waste of gas. Nukes are great late game harass and it's not that micro intensive. you can easily shift cue it and forget about the ghost for a bit. With the change You just won't be able to cloak the ghost in your base and have it run through the whole map as easily. Terrans will have to drop them or kill some creep/overlords and then send them.
It's not closed because everyone enjoy avilo's whine. After all, the guy said himself that he would be top 10western if he switched to zerg. (his stream)
I don't know if it's justified because there is a lot of variable that Avilo doesn't know. In the end, it's just a balance discussion without every factors. Pointless.
As I'm sure it's already been said, HoTS is still in closed beta / alpha...it's not even a public beta yet. So I just don't see the point in everyone getting all worked up before the game is actually getting close to a release date. Now if there was some glaring issue with changes within 2 weeks of release or at release then I'd say it's time to voice concerns.
Until then all of the theory craft on why X,Y, or Z is going to 'break' something just seems unfounded.
On July 31 2012 10:37 Erasme wrote: It's not closed because everyone enjoy avilo's whine. After all, the guy said himself that he would be top 10western if he switched to zerg. (his stream)
I don't know if it's justified because there is a lot of variable that Avilo doesn't know. In the end, it's just a balance discussion without every factors. Pointless.
Enjoy yourself, I sure do.
Lol nice. The guy isn't even top 10 foreign Terran, that's a pretty bold claim.
On July 31 2012 10:37 Erasme wrote: It's not closed because everyone enjoy avilo's whine. After all, the guy said himself that he would be top 10western if he switched to zerg. (his stream)
I don't know if it's justified because there is a lot of variable that Avilo doesn't know. In the end, it's just a balance discussion without every factors. Pointless.
Enjoy yourself, I sure do.
Lol nice. The guy isn't even top 10 foreign Terran, that's a pretty bold claim.
He's saying that Zerg is easier and more OP. His Zerg isn't anything special though (offrace).
You cant call this a concern at all, frankly I'm sorry to tell you that the speculations of a single change is straight out stupid, you completely neglect every other change then, which all has a factor, the changes for both other races.
Seems balanced, have you seen how bad templars are avilo? They move slower than other casters, have no cloak have to research their 'EMP' and 'Fungal' equivalent and have no starting energy. Also lowest health of all casters.
I don't like the idea of this change and think it is bad design because it takes control away from the player, limits choice, and is unintuitive. It's better if the player can choose when to cloak and decloak, and as falling pointed out on pg 5, drastically changes energy management; if the ghost currently requires abilities to fight for the same pool of energy that forces the player to make choices on when and where to use them, but the change makes the choice less relevant. A 30 sec cloak with 60 sec cd is very unintuitive for new players to understand why they can't recloak, and makes cloak much much less useful. 30 sec is actually very little time to do much of anything(as those mentioning the banshee point out), a ghost can barely even scout ahead of an army before it has to run away to "recharge" its cloak for 30 sec. The only reason to cloak for so short a time would be to nuke once which would almost certainly be a suicide mission for the ghost since it doesn't have time to reatreat unless there is a vulnerable medivac nearby, or a protecting army that would make cloaking less relevant. I really don't get why the ghost should be prevented from recloaking after a decloak; what's the point of a special ops spy that can't even hide for longer than it takes to whistle a tune?
The amount of ad hominem in this thread is just sad. A Shakespearean character once said (in Antigone I believe) "If I am young and right, what does my age matter?" Ad hominems just make the poster look like an unlistening intolerant douche and contribute absolutely nothing to the discussion.
Why is this a thing to talk about a completely different game that isn't even in beta yet? Yes, the ghost is being changed, but everything will be changed too. If you told BW players 3/4 years ago that the siege tank in SC2 would do a lot less damage, or even the psy storm would do a lot less damage, everyone would have been like "it can't be, this would be so underpowered", but it's still what made the game balanced.
HotS will almost be a completely different games. Of course basic mechanics will stick so it's not as big of a jump as BW > SC2, but there will be a lot of new units and mechanics for each race. Even if, at the moment, you don't see the reason for "nerfing" (it's not even really a nerf since it's gonna be better in some situations) the ghost, it doesn't mean there is none. When people get to play the game in the beta, we will see what's right and what's not so that Blizzard can fix the problems.
Hell, that the purpose of a fucking beta. Why the hell we do have threads talking about the balance of a beta that isn't out yet blows my mind.
I really dont get why Blizzard messes with things that are time tested and were never a problem. What was wrong exactly with how nukes worked before? They seemed to be balanced during the years of pro play we saw in this game so why change anything. Its kind of like them breaking diablo 3 by changing too many things from the original games if its not broke dont try fixing it your not going to do a better job
When you look at the state sc2 is in now, and how it was when sc2 came out.. you see so many differences. Flux Vanes, Khaydarian Amulet, 1 supply roaches.. name it and it changed.
Just play the game when it comes out, and then the big imbalances will be spotted and adjusted, just like it happened with sc2 . Adjusting the cloak system of the ghosts sounds not too difficult to buff/nerf if it is necessary.
On August 05 2012 06:18 PatouPower wrote: Why is this a thing to talk about a completely different game that isn't even in beta yet? Yes, the ghost is being changed, but everything will be changed too. If you told BW players 3/4 years ago that the siege tank in SC2 would do a lot less damage, or even the psy storm would do a lot less damage, everyone would have been like "it can't be, this would be so underpowered", but it's still what made the game balanced.
HotS will almost be a completely different games. Of course basic mechanics will stick so it's not as big of a jump as BW > SC2, but there will be a lot of new units and mechanics for each race. Even if, at the moment, you don't see the reason for "nerfing" (it's not even really a nerf since it's gonna be better in some situations) the ghost, it doesn't mean there is none. When people get to play the game in the beta, we will see what's right and what's not so that Blizzard can fix the problems.
Hell, that the purpose of a fucking beta. Why the hell we do have threads talking about the balance of a beta that isn't out yet blows my mind.
lol those were the worst two examples you could have used... psi storm and siege tanks? Everyone would have believed it lol.
On August 05 2012 04:20 Cinim wrote: You cant call this a concern at all, frankly I'm sorry to tell you that the speculations of a single change is straight out stupid, you completely neglect every other change then, which all has a factor, the changes for both other races.
How exactly is a change which clearly removes (or at least limits it severely by requiring a ton more attention) the ability to use a tactic connected with any other unit or unit change in HotS? Thus you CAN and HAVE TO actually look at it individually and it is a valid fully fledged concern. The change even nerfs the utility of Ghosts as part of a bio army due to the cooldown of cloak. So to screw the Terran you simply fake an engagement and then withdraw after the Ghosts use cloak; wait 30 seconds and then go for a real engage and no Ghosts will have cloak and you can focus them down easily.
On August 05 2012 06:37 1ManArmy wrote: Just play the game when it comes out, and then the big imbalances will be spotted and adjusted, just like it happened with sc2 . Adjusting the cloak system of the ghosts sounds not too difficult to buff/nerf if it is necessary.
Having cloak cost no energy and giving it a cooldown instead is a bad idea IMO because with an energy drain cloak you have to CHOOSE between using snipe/EMP and cloaking and you have to actually save up that energy. Having too much energy due to the cooldown change also adds more power to Feedback, which is too cheap as an instant killer spell already. So the disadvantages clearly outweigh the advantages IMO.
"Just play the game when it comes out" is not really necessary to figure out how this change will affect gameplay and this statement - repeated in other words by lots of people in this thread - is something between lazy and stupid IMO, because the change really removes choices from players and make a unit clearly worse. Being able to use a key ability only once every 90 seconds (30 seconds duration + 60 seconds cooldown) makes that ability kinda sucky.
Just a general rule of thumb; nothing is final until it's released, therefor posting about nerfs about a game that is still in the making does not make any sense.
I really don't see how anyone can argue with Avilo's point here. This is very clearly going to limit lategame mass nuke harass play, so much so that if you're going to nuke you better be ready to lose your ghost as well - because cloak is going to run out as your ghost calls down the nuke. It's not a simple matter of just spending more apm. The shorter cloak duration and the subsequent cooldown is extremely limiting for this type of play.
Now, this would be ok if Blizzard were saying that they wanted to curb nuke harass play - but they're not. And as far as I can tell, mass nuke play isn't extremely problematic, and it certainly isn't common at the moment. This is intended as a buff to ghosts, not a nerf. So all of you people automatically hating on Avilo clearly don't understand the issue at all, and you're being extremely petty about not separating the person from the topic.
On July 29 2012 05:30 Liquid`NonY wrote: The language Browder uses clearly portrays awareness of the strategic disadvantage of this change. It's impossible to inform Blizzard of what they already know.
how about you quote where it highlights the disadvantages, because all I've seen is how this is intended to help players better manage their energy
It's reasonable to assume that Blizzard believes it is necessary. It is extremely unreasonable to assume that Blizzard knowingly nerfed the ghost without overall balance in mind.
If I were a Blizzard developer, I'd either be insulted by how stupid you think I am or simply laugh off how ridiculous you are. Either way this is an embarrassing installment for SC2's community.
It's not unreasonable at all. They've demonstrated their "stupidity" several times before. You know what the reasoning for the Thor energy revert was? Mass Thor obscures other units.. what? And mass Broodlord or mass Carrier don't? Not only that, but the only match up where they fixed the "issue" was in tvp - in tvz or tvt, mass Thor obscuring other units is apparently ok.
They have also admitted to not foreseeing issues with for example warpgate rushes and so on. Their design and balance process seems to be extremely "patchy" for lack of a better word. They do these small changes, where they sort of hope that they fix some issues, but they clearly don't know or don't have a larger goal in mind. For example the early issues with reapers and how it relates to the recent queen change. If they were always going to end up with a very powerful, defensive queen, why didn't they just go this route from the get-go? It's because they have no idea what they're going to do next, and they're just throwing things at the game and seeing what sticks.
They aren't these all-knowing, forward-looking elite gamedevs you seem to think they are. They are pretty much the most generic, semi-talented group of devs in the business. They have a ton of developers that have basically grandfathered their way into Blizzard from joining in the early 90s. Guys like Metzen or Samwise, for example, would never get hired if they were just entering the business today.
the game isnt in beta yet...its not worth complaining about something thats this far down the line; no one knows what its gonna end up like. Personally i like how the new units/abilities are ridiculously strong for all races...if everythings overpowered then nothings overpowered :D
I don't understand why people are complaining about the thread that calls to attention a nerf? It is a valid discussion point since betas are made for discussing changes to the game and how it pans out... There's a lot of hate here I guess. oh well shit this thread is old.
Up to date clarification: Played HotS beta a few days ago, Ghosts are the same. There's no timer cloak. I did the same nuke harass I did in WoL, nukes cost same, no special abilities (I upgraded the two items in the ghost academy). Unless my memory is betraying me
Yeah... I suppose it is but i think that overall with a few number adjustments this can (and likely will) be fixed if it proves problematic, nothing to get angry about.
EPT
