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On July 28 2012 05:54 spbelky wrote:
Blizzard announces that they were going to remove the Carrier and there is an outcry to save the Carrier. In fact, there is a 1200 post thread on such topic.
Blizzard announces that they are effectively nerfing the Ghost, avilo makes one thread to bring attention to it, and gets a bunch of shit for "NOT EVEN BETA YET" "LOL AVILO TERRAN QQ THREAD" "ITS NOT A NERF YOU NOOB".
I'm sorry, but this is a nerf, and this thread is warranted. If you believe otherwise, I'm sorry but I can't find the logic in you posting in this thread.
The difference is, the Carrier thread is a "Hey, we like this unit, we don't want it to go away." and this thread is "Terran is getting nerfed again!!!" People don't take well to balance whining, especially from someone who's rather notorious for it. If he frames his argument as a poor design choice (Which, if it sticks, it may legitimately be), he might be a little better received.
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On July 28 2012 05:47 avilo wrote:Show nested quote +On July 28 2012 05:39 ThirdDegree wrote:
A concern you raise seems to be that you have to send your ghosts uncloaked across the map in order to nuke. What about cloaking and moving to a position, waiting the cooldown, and then nuking? It just requires some babysitting. Being able to just cloak and nuke at will with no control required is a pretty crappy design choice in itself. a) It's incredibly risky to send a 200/100 unit out too far onto the map uncloaked for the purpose of nuking. But with the change, you would be forced to not cloak until you basically get within your opponent's vision which is bad. b) As analyzed previously in the OP, if you are forced to move to a position and then cloak it means you have less opportunity to launch nukes with that ghost, as well as your ghost being found. c) No one cloaks and nukes with zero control, 99% of the time you end up manually controlling your ghost.
Totally AGREE!!!
Ghosts is supposed to go cloaked.Its a Spy-kind Unit,being unseen in the enemy army to do harras or damage using his unique ability.Same as Banshee.Can you imagine a Banshee with cooldown on CLOAK???30ss?Really?What is the point of this??? 30s cloaked,20s Nuke and you got exactly 10s to run back home before die.And in late game TvZ its impossible if you dont got your own Personal-Ghost-BodyGuard-Medivac and hope to not being spotted flyinjg around the map.Its just crazy!!! One of the worst decisions of Blizz ever.Nobody will use Cloak and ghost will die in HotS
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I don't know why you claim early in the video that its an unintentional nerf.Its pretty clear they want to intentionally nerf the ability to cloak all the way from your base, walk over to the enemy's base and then nuke. It seems as if they want you to be more tactical with your ghosts instead of queuing up 5 commands and being done with it. Whether or not its balanced is yet to be seen, but it will require terrans to pay more attention to their harassing ghost than they currently do.
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On July 28 2012 05:52 boomudead1 wrote:Show nested quote +On July 28 2012 05:25 Dagan159 wrote:
Wow avilo, from your idiotic rants on StoG, to this whine about something that is something I wouldnt even say is probable of making it into the game, I must say you really do take the cake for the whiney terrans. I play Terran, and yes the race has design flaws, but why dont you spend more time trying to work around them rather than complain over and over again. If the race is so broken how come Taeja just won MLG arena and Ryung made top 4 GSL? Stop trying to make things easier for yourself and start getting better by being better. people have the right to give feed backs and even blizzard said they wanted more feed backs from the community. you dont have anything nice to say then leave the guy alone. and do u really wanna bring tournament stats into this?
There is feedback and then there is whine. Im afriad in avilo's case the latter is most prevelant. I brought up the fact that some terrans still have done moderately well to highlight the fact that it isnt impossible for Terran to win. Of course the community should be giving feedback to blizzard, but once the diction devolves into that of whine, the community stops benefitting. If avilo doesnt know how to give feedback about the game, he should focus on playing and getting better.
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On July 28 2012 05:38 Leyra wrote:
To all the people saying Avilo is doing a great job of bringing this up to the community, you're ignoring the WAY he brings it up, lol. If he posted "Hey guys, I found this, what do you guys think?" it would be one thing, but he posts "omg guys, terran sucks so bad right now and we're getting fucking NERFED AGAIN! David Kim hates terran!11!11!!"
If you want to be taken seriously, learn how to present your points and arguments without sounding like you're whining about how shitty your race is.
edit: Not to mention, again, its not even beta. lol.
doesnt matter whichever "ways" he present the post imo. it has the same point.
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On July 28 2012 05:56 Leyra wrote:Show nested quote +On July 28 2012 05:54 spbelky wrote:
Blizzard announces that they were going to remove the Carrier and there is an outcry to save the Carrier. In fact, there is a 1200 post thread on such topic.
Blizzard announces that they are effectively nerfing the Ghost, avilo makes one thread to bring attention to it, and gets a bunch of shit for "NOT EVEN BETA YET" "LOL AVILO TERRAN QQ THREAD" "ITS NOT A NERF YOU NOOB".
I'm sorry, but this is a nerf, and this thread is warranted. If you believe otherwise, I'm sorry but I can't find the logic in you posting in this thread. The difference is, the Carrier thread is a "Hey, we like this unit, we don't want it to go away." and this thread is "Terran is getting nerfed again!!!" People don't take well to balance whining, especially from someone who's rather notorious for it. If he frames his argument as a poor design choice (Which, if it sticks, it may legitimately be), he might be a little better received.
You're right, avilo did frame his post poorly, which will inevitably distract many people from the message behind the emotion... which is unfortunate because this is actually a very important issue, and hopefully Blizzard realizes this eventually.
So while the Carrier and Ghost change were presented in very different manners, I think we can agree that they are both proposed changes that need to be discussed openly, even if the beta isn't even out yet.
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On July 28 2012 05:38 Leyra wrote:
To all the people saying Avilo is doing a great job of bringing this up to the community, you're ignoring the WAY he brings it up, lol. If he posted "Hey guys, I found this, what do you guys think?" it would be one thing, but he posts "omg guys, terran sucks so bad right now and we're getting fucking NERFED AGAIN! David Kim hates terran!11!11!!"
If you want to be taken seriously, learn how to present your points and arguments without sounding like you're whining about how shitty your race is.
edit: Not to mention, again, its not even beta. lol.
In your first paragraph you quoted (that means avilo actually said it) "omg guys, terran sucks so bad right now and we're getting fucking NERFED AGAIN! David Kim hates terran!11!11!!" I reread the OP and can't for the life of me find that quote.
Despite what the haters might think, this is not a "whine" but a potential (meaning possible) problem that avilo's stream viewers pointed out to him. It was important enough for him to take time from his hectic schedule to bring it to the community. If you are unable to contribute with logical thoughts and reasoning, then you might want to just not comment, period.
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On July 28 2012 05:56 ronpaul012 wrote:
I don't know why you claim early in the video that its an unintentional nerf.Its pretty clear they want to intentionally nerf the ability to cloak all the way from your base, walk over to the enemy's base and then nuke. It seems as if they want you to be more tactical with your ghosts instead of queuing up 5 commands and being done with it. Whether or not its balanced is yet to be seen, but it will require terrans to pay more attention to their harassing ghost than they currently do.
I think the point is that if this change were to go through, there wouldnt be a harassing ghost to pay attention to. The strategy of nuke harass would effectively be obsolete.
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On July 28 2012 06:03 spbelky wrote:Show nested quote +On July 28 2012 05:56 Leyra wrote:On July 28 2012 05:54 spbelky wrote:
Blizzard announces that they were going to remove the Carrier and there is an outcry to save the Carrier. In fact, there is a 1200 post thread on such topic.
Blizzard announces that they are effectively nerfing the Ghost, avilo makes one thread to bring attention to it, and gets a bunch of shit for "NOT EVEN BETA YET" "LOL AVILO TERRAN QQ THREAD" "ITS NOT A NERF YOU NOOB".
I'm sorry, but this is a nerf, and this thread is warranted. If you believe otherwise, I'm sorry but I can't find the logic in you posting in this thread. The difference is, the Carrier thread is a "Hey, we like this unit, we don't want it to go away." and this thread is "Terran is getting nerfed again!!!" People don't take well to balance whining, especially from someone who's rather notorious for it. If he frames his argument as a poor design choice (Which, if it sticks, it may legitimately be), he might be a little better received. You're right, avilo did frame his post poorly, which will inevitably distract many people from the message behind the emotion... which is unfortunate because this is actually a very important issue, and hopefully Blizzard realizes this eventually. So while the Carrier and Ghost change were presented in very different manners, I think we can agree that they are both proposed changes that need to be discussed openly, even if the beta isn't even out yet.
I actually agree 100% man, the subject itself is worth as much discussion as the Carrier change (the actual value varies depending on the person, since its pre-beta, though the Carrier change seems more "final"), but just something people should learn is how much the presentation of a subject actually matters, lol.
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On July 28 2012 05:56 ronpaul012 wrote:
I don't know why you claim early in the video that its an unintentional nerf.Its pretty clear they want to intentionally nerf the ability to cloak all the way from your base, walk over to the enemy's base and then nuke. It seems as if they want you to be more tactical with your ghosts instead of queuing up 5 commands and being done with it. Whether or not its balanced is yet to be seen, but it will require terrans to pay more attention to their harassing ghost than they currently do.
You need Terrans to pay MORE attention??? MORE? Is it possible? The Multitasking Race is being promoted to Hyper-Mega-Tasking Race.T still need to create units while in battle at same time as maybe stimming,running,dropping,sieging,upgrading,kiting,spliting...LOL! Now we must control Ghosts even more!They are usually cloaked before a TvP BIO engagement to only snipe or EMP,asuming they probably die to Colossi or Zealots immediatly after doing their job nad this change do nothing but help them to gain energy and improve the TvP,but in TvZ and everything about Nukes its just over.EMP dont work on InFATstors because of nerfrange,nerfsnipe doesnt do anything to Zergs army and now Nuke is a onetime risky decision hoping of GL to not be discovered going to the enemys base or being spotted in that medivac that drops you.That last makes Nuke even more Useless bacause of helping the Z palyer to know exactly where the ghost is gonna Nuke.Its same as we make the Nuke point as big as Hive,but who cares?
Its not about balance or crying,its about a totally broking a unit/ability making it totally useless
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I thought TL was held to a higher standard than a bunch of idiots flaming the OP. Sure...we aren't in beta yet but the change has already been officially proposed. So from a design perspective it can be critiqued. That said, the framing of this post was terrible.
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On July 28 2012 06:05 Arkansassy wrote:Show nested quote +On July 28 2012 05:38 Leyra wrote:
To all the people saying Avilo is doing a great job of bringing this up to the community, you're ignoring the WAY he brings it up, lol. If he posted "Hey guys, I found this, what do you guys think?" it would be one thing, but he posts "omg guys, terran sucks so bad right now and we're getting fucking NERFED AGAIN! David Kim hates terran!11!11!!"
If you want to be taken seriously, learn how to present your points and arguments without sounding like you're whining about how shitty your race is.
edit: Not to mention, again, its not even beta. lol. In your first paragraph you quoted (that means avilo actually said it) "omg guys, terran sucks so bad right now and we're getting fucking NERFED AGAIN! David Kim hates terran!11!11!!" I reread the OP and can't for the life of me find that quote. Despite what the haters might think, this is not a "whine" but a potential (meaning possible) problem that avilo's stream viewers pointed out to him. It was important enough for him to take time from his hectic schedule to bring it to the community. If you are unable to contribute with logical thoughts and reasoning, then you might want to just not comment, period.
Again, it's a hyperbole. (several points in the OP are, in fact, balance whines, or "terran has been nerfed so much", etc.) My only point was if he wants to be taken seriously, and he's gonna get defensive when people come in and post "another balance whine from avilo!" type comments, he should leave balance out of it, and simply bring the discussion up in a neutral manner, or perhaps approaching it from a "design flaw" standpoint.
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Lol @ this thread. Avilo, at least you should focus your whining efforts towards things that are actually relevant, not games that are not even beta yet.
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On July 28 2012 05:55 Falling wrote:Show nested quote +On July 28 2012 05:43 Plansix wrote:On July 28 2012 05:25 avilo wrote:thanks for changing title, hopefully gets better discussion out of this thread -_-! On July 28 2012 05:25 Plansix wrote:
It is totally unclear if this will be a buff or a nerf. With a flat energy cost and timer on cloak, it could allow for a more controlled use of EMP in conjunction with cloak. Currently if you cloak a ghost, you run the risk of “running over” and into critical EMP energy. The change could avoid this and allow terrans to know exactly what they are getting when they click the cloak button. If the length of time the Ghost is cloaked is sufficient, this could be a way to make ghosts more useful and controlled.
To be clear:
- We don’t know how much long cloak will last for the energy cost. The flat cost could be more efficient and use less energy for the amount of time cloaked.
- We don’t know what the cool down will be. If it is 10 in-game second, it shouldn’t have a huge effect on the game.
- A flat cost allows terrans to know exactly how much it costs to use cloak and EMP together, which eliminates surprises.
It gives less control to the user, which is bad. Every good player can manage their cloak energy properly, to the point that when you do send out ghosts to nuke you literally pick the ones that already have 100 energy pooled up. There is no risk of "running over" it's up to the player to manage their units. The proposed change is a bad change in the ways i've analyzed, and in the terms you are speaking of it's just a simple dumbing down of the game. I don’t agree and I have always felt that cloak should be a flat cost with a timer, rather than an energy drain. It is easier to balance and ability with a flat amount of time, rather than a flexible one that can build up over time. They can make the ability more powerful, because it is limited by time and a cool down. Without a cool down, the ability has to be limited in other ways, which I think has hurt cloak and made it less effective for the terran. If the cloaking cost provided double the amount of time cloaked per energy spent, it would allow for more snipes and EMPs. Once again, it could be a nerf, or a buff. But I am all for a change to cloak to make it more useful across the board, rather than just for nuke harass. Cloak being more useful might have more to do with how they changed snipe (see qxc's thread on that.) But I think it's a rather elegant design to have cloak continually depleted by energy, but then also have emp and snipe vying for that same energy. There's a lot more choice involved in how soon to cloak your ghosts. Too soon and you'll waste your energy that you might need for snipe or emp. Too late and they're dead. But if it turns out it was premature, you can uncloak and run away. Or if you miscalculated, you can keep them cloaked for longer and find a better opportunity. It presents a greater range of opportunities and decisions for the player. But this new change there is only a minor conflict over energy resource. The actual number doesn't matter so much. But then it's set in stone. You have x amount of seconds/ minutes and then that's that. How long you keep your ghosts cloaked is no longer conflicts with your other ghost abilities. There's nothing that you as a gamer can do decision wise or control wise to change it. All that matters is that split second decision to cloak at just the right time and then clock starts ticking.
You are correct that it could be very bad and I do see issues with changing the ghost so they cannot “cloak walk” across the map. However, burrow is more useful to infestors than is more useful that cloak in my opinion. The ability does not eat into their energy pool and allows them to use more active abilities more often. It also does not require the zerg to keep track of how much energy they are using up by burrowing their infestors.
I think making the energy management for cloak a bit simpler may help take a bit off the terrans already full plate. With ghosts being produced at different times and all having different amounts of energy(infestors normally come out in bunches due to the zerg production, the same with HTs), a flat cost may be more “useful”.
Again, I am not sure it is a perfect or good change. But I can see merit and complexity in how it could be used. Knowing exactly what the ghost can do and for how long is something that seems valuable and useful. If the change makes cloak more powerful in addition to the extra limits, I could see it being change that makes ghosts better.
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On July 28 2012 05:59 Dagan159 wrote:Show nested quote +On July 28 2012 05:52 boomudead1 wrote:On July 28 2012 05:25 Dagan159 wrote:
Wow avilo, from your idiotic rants on StoG, to this whine about something that is something I wouldnt even say is probable of making it into the game, I must say you really do take the cake for the whiney terrans. I play Terran, and yes the race has design flaws, but why dont you spend more time trying to work around them rather than complain over and over again. If the race is so broken how come Taeja just won MLG arena and Ryung made top 4 GSL? Stop trying to make things easier for yourself and start getting better by being better. people have the right to give feed backs and even blizzard said they wanted more feed backs from the community. you dont have anything nice to say then leave the guy alone. and do u really wanna bring tournament stats into this? There is feedback and then there is whine. Im afriad in avilo's case the latter is most prevelant. I brought up the fact that some terrans still have done moderately well to highlight the fact that it isnt impossible for Terran to win. Of course the community should be giving feedback to blizzard, but once the diction devolves into that of whine, the community stops benefitting. If avilo doesnt know how to give feedback about the game, he should focus on playing and getting better.
Welp, the community seems to be on the track of agreeing with the OP, ergo benifitting from the post.
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I don't see why we are discussing a game that is not open to public in any way yet o.O
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Haters gonna hate, potatoes gonna potate
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On July 28 2012 05:01 LittleAtari wrote:
Are we seriously complaining about balance in a game that isnt even out yet? You cant say that something is being nerfed in a different game, when you dont even know the state of the other races.
This. /thread
User was warned for this post
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On July 28 2012 06:09 Leyra wrote:
Again, it's a hyperbole. (several points in the OP are, in fact, balance whines, or "terran has been nerfed so much", etc.) My only point was if he wants to be taken seriously, and he's gonna get defensive when people come in and post "another balance whine from avilo!" type comments, he should leave balance out of it, and simply bring the discussion up in a neutral manner, or perhaps approaching it from a "design flaw" standpoint.
It's not hyperbole when it's a direct quote. :D and Terran has been nerfed to near oblivion. Avilo is not the only terran who has "commented" about the state of Terran (lategame especially). He's simply trying to nip it in the bud and hopefully get some feedback from intelligent people. Of course there will always be those who have nothing much to offer intellectually so they revert to name-calling.
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Well i tried the more and actually the Cooldown is only 30 secs.The Ghost stay cloaked 30s,the cooldown starts in the moment he is cloaked,so when he became visible again,there is only 30s more to wait,and you recover 17 energy of the 25 spent on the spell.So,Cloak is now cheaper,but requires more micro and make impossible for the Ghost to cross the map cloaked of Nuke more than one time.Still being huge nerf for me...
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EPT
