Ghost Design Change Concern for HOTS - Page 8

dAPhREAk

Nauru12397 Posts

July 27 2012 21:36 GMT

#141

is this bad? it appears so to me.

is this bad enough that they shouldn't test it internally to determine whether it should go in the beta? no.

is this bad enough that they shouldn't put it into a --BETA-- so we can test it to see if its bad? no.

since beta isnt even out, this qq is premature. people havent even tested it to see the advantages/disadvantages.

boomudead1

United States186 Posts

July 27 2012 21:40 GMT

#142

On July 28 2012 06:26 Dagan159 wrote:

Show nested quote +

The point may be the same, but the way in which it is presented does matter. These forums have standards. It is the reason TL is one of the best community sites on the web. It is the reason people can have debates rather than just mudslinging.

you want to have a good debate yet u said you "brought up the fact that some terrans still have done moderately well to highlight the fact that it isnt impossible for Terran to win." we r not taking about if its possible or not for terran to win. so your telling avilo to stop giving feedback about the game and go play the game? your talking about debating and forum standard yet you tell avilo who is giving feedback and infos to stop posting.
he does have a point imo. i learned stuffs from his post so how is that not benefitting?
this is my last reply. im done. avilo brought up a good point. people shudnt tell him to stop posting imo. thats rude imo. again i dont take it as a whine. i learned stuffs. you want him to be more professional because you think its a whine is up to you. im watching demuslim streaming. peace out

conz

United Kingdom163 Posts

July 27 2012 21:40 GMT

#143

I don't know why people get worked up on numbers, it's something easily fixed it's underpowered, the game isn't even out or even had a beta, if you look at state of wol during the early beta stages it wasn't even close to balanced.
Let the game be tested, patched up and played out because if you're looking for things that are unbalanced in an alpha, you're going to 100% find them.

For all we know they could of already reverted or fixed, wouldn't waste too much thought on it.

Dbla08

United States211 Posts

July 27 2012 21:47 GMT

#144

As people have said, and I will reitterate, we shouldn't speculate too heavily on a game that isn't even in beta atm..so many things will get changed within the first few months (or maybe even just one) that it's impossible to say what will and won't be balanced. also, I haven't seen a terran, pro or otherwise, use ghosts at all since the emp nerf although i work days so perhaps there's a few that stream early for cst and i don't see any of it, but none the less, it just adds to the skillcap of ghosts, as did reducing emp range which I think was blizzards goal, if a platinum/diamond league player can land the same emps as top top koreans without missing a step..there's a problem, at least in my opinion

BrosephBrostar

United States445 Posts

July 27 2012 21:48 GMT

#145

Are they changing the banshee too? If they leave it alone then every cloaking unit in the game will have a different mechanic.

Yorbon

Netherlands4272 Posts

July 27 2012 21:49 GMT

#146

Funny how the op doesn't mention other (more positive) effects of the change. Energy builds up while cloaking => faster cloaked emp. Not saying this will cancel other effects or something...
My point is the op is very bad, because it is very one sided. If nuke harass is the entire story of avilo's ghosts, then i pity them.

And of course, i agree with people saying it's not even in beta: who knows how it will become..

Dagan159

United States203 Posts

July 27 2012 21:52 GMT

#147

On July 28 2012 06:40 boomudead1 wrote:

Show nested quote +

Yes I am telling avilo, that if he doesnt know how to format feedback properly, he should not do so because it detracts from the point he is attempting to make. If the entire OP had been: "Ghosts in HotS now cloak for a set duaration that does not cost energy /discuss." It would have been infinitely better. Notice how the majority of the posts in this thread have not been on topic. He did indeed bring up a point that everyone should be aware of, but his method and diction were extremely poor.

Bagi

Germany6799 Posts

July 27 2012 21:52 GMT

#148

I watched some of the video, and yeah it does seem awfully clunky. Then again its a pretty nice buff for direct engagements.

Hard to say at face value, I wouldn't mind seeing it in the beta and maybe reverted if it ends up ruining nuke harass potential completely.

Noocta

France12578 Posts

July 27 2012 21:57 GMT

#149

Mods should just close everything who debate HotS until the beta is out. -__-

Zato-1

Chile4253 Posts

July 27 2012 21:59 GMT

#150

This is not a nerf.

Yes, there are situations when the WoL implementation of Cloak will be superior to the HotS implementation, as the OP correctly notes. However, there are also situations in which the HotS implementation will be superior. Specifically, if you have a bunch of units that can cloak in a control group and they all have different amounts of energy remaining (nearly always the case), under the current implementation, they start to uncloak one by one, which makes cloaking completely useless; your enemy instantly knows the clump of units is there, and even if they don't have detection they can still snipe the ones that aren't cloaked. Even after the uncloaked ghosts have been screwing around in plain sight for a while, re-cloaking them is useless because of the 25 energy up-front cost of turning Cloak on, so if you want your stealth squad to operate properly your only option is to decloak everything, send the visible units to a corner of the map and wait for them to regain a sizeable chunk of energy back. With the HotS implementation, all you need is 25 energy on every unit for them to operate properly.

TL;DR: Using a new cloak mechanic like it was the old cloak mechanic will yield poor results.

wcr.4fun

Belgium686 Posts

July 27 2012 22:04 GMT

#151

On July 28 2012 05:14 shabby wrote:

Show nested quote +

We would still write it off because it is pure speculation. I don't mind the change, I believe that David Kim knows a lot more about the game balance than I do, and I hope he manages to keep the game as well balanced as it is.

Which is terrible...

Zerg auto win late game in zvt?

Toss autowin in late game tvp?

Asymmetrical balance is terrible!

User was warned for this post

boomudead1

United States186 Posts

July 27 2012 22:05 GMT

#152

On July 28 2012 06:52 Dagan159 wrote:

Show nested quote +

On July 28 2012 06:40 boomudead1 wrote:

On July 28 2012 06:26 Dagan159 wrote:

On July 28 2012 06:17 boomudead1 wrote:

On July 28 2012 05:59 Dagan159 wrote:

On July 28 2012 05:52 boomudead1 wrote:

On July 28 2012 05:25 Dagan159 wrote:
Wow avilo, from your idiotic rants on StoG, to this whine about something that is something I wouldnt even say is probable of making it into the game, I must say you really do take the cake for the whiney terrans. I play Terran, and yes the race has design flaws, but why dont you spend more time trying to work around them rather than complain over and over again. If the race is so broken how come Taeja just won MLG arena and Ryung made top 4 GSL? Stop trying to make things easier for yourself and start getting better by being better.

people have the right to give feed backs and even blizzard said they wanted more feed backs from the community. you dont have anything nice to say then leave the guy alone. and do u really wanna bring tournament stats into this?

There is feedback and then there is whine. Im afriad in avilo's case the latter is most prevelant. I brought up the fact that some terrans still have done moderately well to highlight the fact that it isnt impossible for Terran to win. Of course the community should be giving feedback to blizzard, but once the diction devolves into that of whine, the community stops benefitting. If avilo doesnt know how to give feedback about the game, he should focus on playing and getting better.

it depend on how you take it imo. i dont take it as a whine. i take it as a feedback and knowledge. but like i said whatever ways he chose to present his stuffs doesnt matter imo, it has the same point.

this was your first comment before this.

"Wow avilo, from your idiotic rants on StoG, to this whine about something that is something I wouldnt even say is probable of making it into the game, I must say you really do take the cake for the whiney terrans. I play Terran, and yes the race has design flaws, but why dont you spend more time trying to work around them rather than complain over and over again. If the race is so broken how come Taeja just won MLG arena and Ryung made top 4 GSL? Stop trying to make things easier for yourself and start getting better by being better."

he never said anything about design flaws. you then u tell him to work around. which is even more off topic. u tell him to not complain, but its a feedback imo. you then talk about how the race is not broken and Taeja won MLG and stuffs. which is even off topic. then u tell him to stop posting and go play. him playing better or not is off topic. let say he whine and that his stuffs are off standard on teamliquid but what about yours? and bringing StoG into this is more off topic. the guy is talking
about ghost.
if you didnt post that at the start then there woudnt be any discussion since the post is mainly about ghost. just leave the guy alone and let him do his thing
yo if you play Terran then at least show some love for the guy

gasmeter

United Kingdom249 Posts

July 27 2012 22:05 GMT

#153

Firstly, I agree that if this is true, it is potentially a bad nerf for Terran lategame. However, these are the problems I have with your post avilo.

1. You have not given us any sources for this and we are kind of just taking your word for all this.

2. Your YouTube video is far too long, and the vast majority of people probably won't even watch it all. 2-3 minutes should cover everything fine.

3. HOTS is not even out yet and, as such, these 'nerfs' you speak of may not even be in the final product and, if they are, may not be as bad as you think.

shizna

United Kingdom803 Posts

July 27 2012 22:11 GMT

#154

will it actually be worse though?

if you can find somewhere 'out of sight' of the enemy to refresh your cloak, then the hots ghost would last longer than a wol ghost. due to the 'regen while cloaked' allowing greater cloak time.

it totally depends on the final cloak duration as well, which is unspecified(?).

edit: wtf just watched the attached video - there's a cooldown on cloak? that's official? wtf is the point in that? make the ghost a terrible banshee and even more expensive... gg blizz.

fAnTaCy

United States893 Posts

July 27 2012 22:12 GMT

#155

Loooool Avilo...please..don't stop being you...you make a good laugh once in a while =]

Dagan159

United States203 Posts

July 27 2012 22:21 GMT

#156

On July 28 2012 07:05 boomudead1 wrote:

Show nested quote +

On July 28 2012 06:52 Dagan159 wrote:

On July 28 2012 06:40 boomudead1 wrote:

On July 28 2012 06:26 Dagan159 wrote:

On July 28 2012 06:17 boomudead1 wrote:

On July 28 2012 05:59 Dagan159 wrote:

On July 28 2012 05:52 boomudead1 wrote:

Avilo brought up the ghost change, and simultaneously undermined the entire conversation with his whiney undertones.

"We all know how Terran has been doing lately. Terran does not need another nerf on top of every other nerf that the race has been hit with. Once again, I'll state that this all may be an oversight on Browder/Blizzard/Kim's part, and they may have not considered that their change to the ghost cloaking would be a huge nerf to Terran lategame."

For a change that isnt even out, and when it does come out may be introduced to a entirely different enviorment (I can honeslty see widow mines drastically altering the meta game on their own), the whine is derailing this post from real discussion. Yes I got sucked into arguing that point, and thereby derailing the thread still further. Im sorry for that, but these whine threads and rants from avilo have been disgusting to me, and I hope he reads this and stops getting in the way of level headed people actually discussing the problems at hand.

Chronos.

United States805 Posts

July 27 2012 22:21 GMT

#157

They never once said this was supposed to be a buff, and it certainly wasn't unintentional. They stated clearly that they were going to make this change (not buff or nerf) quite a while ago. This will make it so Ghost probably can't walk all the way across the map while cloaked and this might be a bit worse for nuking, but a lot better for dropping emps/snipes since you can cloak all of your Ghosts without using energy.

It's not a nerf, it's just different.

SniXSniPe

United States1938 Posts

July 27 2012 22:26 GMT

#158

I don't even make ghosts anymore except in TvP, even then I don't utilize the nuking aspect as much as I use too.

R3DT1D3

285 Posts

July 27 2012 22:34 GMT

#159

On July 28 2012 06:11 Plansix wrote:

Show nested quote +

On July 28 2012 05:55 Falling wrote:

On July 28 2012 05:43 Plansix wrote:

On July 28 2012 05:25 avilo wrote:
thanks for changing title, hopefully gets better discussion out of this thread -_-!

On July 28 2012 05:25 Plansix wrote:
It is totally unclear if this will be a buff or a nerf. With a flat energy cost and timer on cloak, it could allow for a more controlled use of EMP in conjunction with cloak. Currently if you cloak a ghost, you run the risk of “running over” and into critical EMP energy. The change could avoid this and allow terrans to know exactly what they are getting when they click the cloak button. If the length of time the Ghost is cloaked is sufficient, this could be a way to make ghosts more useful and controlled.

To be clear:

- We don’t know how much long cloak will last for the energy cost. The flat cost could be more efficient and use less energy for the amount of time cloaked.

- We don’t know what the cool down will be. If it is 10 in-game second, it shouldn’t have a huge effect on the game.

- A flat cost allows terrans to know exactly how much it costs to use cloak and EMP together, which eliminates surprises.

It gives less control to the user, which is bad. Every good player can manage their cloak energy properly, to the point that when you do send out ghosts to nuke you literally pick the ones that already have 100 energy pooled up. There is no risk of "running over" it's up to the player to manage their units. The proposed change is a bad change in the ways i've analyzed, and in the terms you are speaking of it's just a simple dumbing down of the game.

I don’t agree and I have always felt that cloak should be a flat cost with a timer, rather than an energy drain. It is easier to balance and ability with a flat amount of time, rather than a flexible one that can build up over time. They can make the ability more powerful, because it is limited by time and a cool down. Without a cool down, the ability has to be limited in other ways, which I think has hurt cloak and made it less effective for the terran. If the cloaking cost provided double the amount of time cloaked per energy spent, it would allow for more snipes and EMPs.

Once again, it could be a nerf, or a buff. But I am all for a change to cloak to make it more useful across the board, rather than just for nuke harass.

Cloak being more useful might have more to do with how they changed snipe (see qxc's thread on that.) But I think it's a rather elegant design to have cloak continually depleted by energy, but then also have emp and snipe vying for that same energy. There's a lot more choice involved in how soon to cloak your ghosts. Too soon and you'll waste your energy that you might need for snipe or emp. Too late and they're dead. But if it turns out it was premature, you can uncloak and run away. Or if you miscalculated, you can keep them cloaked for longer and find a better opportunity. It presents a greater range of opportunities and decisions for the player.

But this new change there is only a minor conflict over energy resource. The actual number doesn't matter so much. But then it's set in stone. You have x amount of seconds/ minutes and then that's that. How long you keep your ghosts cloaked is no longer conflicts with your other ghost abilities. There's nothing that you as a gamer can do decision wise or control wise to change it. All that matters is that split second decision to cloak at just the right time and then clock starts ticking.

You are correct that it could be very bad and I do see issues with changing the ghost so they cannot “cloak walk” across the map. However, burrow is more useful to infestors than is more useful that cloak in my opinion. The ability does not eat into their energy pool and allows them to use more active abilities more often. It also does not require the zerg to keep track of how much energy they are using up by burrowing their infestors.

I think making the energy management for cloak a bit simpler may help take a bit off the terrans already full plate. With ghosts being produced at different times and all having different amounts of energy(infestors normally come out in bunches due to the zerg production, the same with HTs), a flat cost may be more “useful”.

Again, I am not sure it is a perfect or good change. But I can see merit and complexity in how it could be used. Knowing exactly what the ghost can do and for how long is something that seems valuable and useful. If the change makes cloak more powerful in addition to the extra limits, I could see it being change that makes ghosts better.

Infestors can remain burrowed indefinitely though. This change is like if Infestors unburrowed automatically in 30s after burrow so you had to burrow them right next to where you needed them and there was no burrowed retreating.

Ewic

Canada121 Posts

July 27 2012 22:41 GMT

#160

Holy shit guys...
Blizzard proposes the Carrier is out of HotS -> there's a massive thread of discussion about this...

Blizzard proposes the Ghost's cloak is changing in a big way -> 90% of the reponses are cheap shots at the poster and nobody gives a shit...

Such a double-standard, it's not even funny. You guys should be ashamed.

@Avilo - Thank you for bringing up this change to light. I had forgotten about this and now realize its implications if it indeed does go through. I want to add that it'll very strongly change Ghosts in big fights because if you accidently cloak your Ghosts, they're unusable to snipe HTs/Infestors.

What I find extremely hypocritical about this change is that Dustin Browder in multiple interviews has stated that he doesn't want to make the game more complicated than it needs to be, and this change to the Ghost makes it more confusing to use to newcomers.

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