On July 19 2012 02:48 HardlyNever wrote: TBH I almost always cringe and mute/go to a different tab when the female hosts/interviewers do their thing. Heck, I often do even when it's the males. It just feels so awkward and forced, and that isn't always the hosts' fault, sometimes it is.
It just always feels so forced. It is like the booth babes at E3 and stuff. It is just such a thinly veiled marketing ploy that I can't really bear it. I'm not sure the community even wants that; it screams marketing done by someone who isn't really part of the community. It is so basic and obvious; "hey there is this community with a lot of young males, young males like attractive girls, lets shoehorn attractive girls into anything we can!" Does the community really want that? I'm not sure it does, I think it wants people who genuinely feel like they are interested in Starcraft and are part of the community as well. If they happen to be female, then great, but they have to have a genuine interest in the community first, or it just feels awkward to me (not to mention they are always dressed in ways to make them stand out to a ridiculous degree).
Maybe I'm in the minority, but I watch Starcraft to watch Starcraft, and get involved and enthusiastic about the event with people who feel the same way. The "eye candy" thing is just so poorly done it detracts from the experience, for me.
It's good to hear that I'm not the only one who does that (cringe/mute) with interviews and female hosts. Awkward and forced is exactly how I feel about these things, too.
I don't care about the gender of the people involved. The main thing is having passion and wanting to share that. That's why it's such a joy to watch someone like Day[9] cast a game -- he's ridiculously passionate. And he even manages to make those forced interviews to make somewhat nice because he just fills them with the fun and humor he's overflowing with!
There isn´t really any misogyny and sexism out there that is genuine.
But it is riddled with this jokish culture, look at the mma thread; about half of it is jokes about how mma banged eve or jessica.
The problem is just that everyone is trying to be an (awful) comedian, and joking on a woman´s expense (No knowledge, no skill, looks etc.) is something people can easily take a jab at.
Are you serious?
I'm pretty new to the SC2 world, and I agree that most people in it seem to have good intentions. However, I've spent most of my life in male-dominated arenas as a female computer science professor, and sexism is real in the broader culture, not just as a joke.
I made it most of the way through college without realizing that. Then I met the real world.
After watched the last NASL with Soe (not sure if that's her name), she seems to know a TINY smidge about the game. Most of the time it was Day[9] commentating on the plays and her agreeing with him and add something on top of the things already said.
But then again she is cute, so I guess that's okay.
On July 19 2012 01:07 Meatex wrote: until guys spend more time on socializing and meeting girls / possibly getting laid by girls instead of so much time on games and being awkward when around others that aren't fellow gamers then this won't change. The reason women get so much attention is all the socially awkward guys that can interact with others without games being involved in some way Said guy gets girlfriend and he will quickly lose interest in women in sc2 unless they warrant some attention through being good caster or player.
This sounds sad, but is very probably true. Everytime a normal looking female person appears on a streamed event, the forum here gets completely hyped: "Omg, she looks so awesome!", while I have to think to "Well yes, sure ~20yo girls usually look nice, but what's the hype? Anyone been in a club, disco or at least out on the street recently?"
Are you kidding me? Those people are just half trolling being stupid aka kids. It's not serious... The fact you just stereotyped this entire community as " socially awkward guys that can interact with others without games being involved in some way" seems... (i left out the description cause i would get banned for it, but im sure you can see where i was going with this)
I don't know if that leads anywhere and I am not on a trip to enrage you, but if you replace "this entire community" with "a large vocal part of every gaming website on the internet", that is basically it.
On July 19 2012 03:27 Kazeyonoma wrote: the problem isn't with how she was utilized, or what she was utilized for, eye candy, attention, etc, that stuff exists everywhere, even outside of esports, the problem is that your average person, sees eye candy, understands it's purpose, and goes back home to normalcy, the subculture of gamers however, sees eye candy, sees them being particularly nice to us 'nerds' and then suddenly thinks, all women should both be a) this hot, and b) this nice to us all the time. It's largely a weird knee jerk reaction to things that gets us in trouble as a whole.
personally i think hiring her wasn't ideal, knowing how the community would grow, why not just let clutch do the hosting like he did most of the night anyways, and instead of pointing her out as a 'host', just have her around as eye candy, like most of the sponsor girls at events. the fact she got singled out is what is making this a big deal. we've all been to mlg's / etc / and there are nameless women standing around with less than normal amounts of clothing. Should they be there? probably not in a equal rights sort of point of view, but that's the sponsors perogative, NOT the tournaments choice.
Clutch is only one man and cannot do everything, or be everywhere. These events are ongoing, all day things where someone has to be read for to be on camera at all times. It is to much to expect that one person can handle every post game interview between both NASL and WCS, intro players and fill dead time.
People need to have reasonable expectations about these events. Most of them are not local for the organization running the tournament and people cannot expect them to fly out every starcraft personality to host these events. Sometimes they have to hire local people and some of those people could be attractive girls who have broadcast experience, but are not involved with the Esports scene.
But I am growing tired of these threads that degrade into people demanding proof that the hostess was qualified to be involved with the event. These threads simply do not happen if it is a guy who is on camera. It’s a double standard, no matter how people look at it.
I honestly don't see the problem. There are some women that they obviously hire to be eye-candy (Elise/Sporrer), and as long as nerds are lonely it will be a good investment to do so.
Then there are women who are hired because they are part of the scene and because they are good at what they do (looking at Smix here, although Anna is another example). It certainly helps that they are easy on the eyes, but their role in these events is hardly demeaning.
When they try to pigeonhole someone like Smix into a demeaning "eye-candy" role purely because they are female, then you can get all outraged. But getting upset because a model was hired to be eye-candy is the definition of retarded.
On July 19 2012 01:07 Meatex wrote: until guys spend more time on socializing and meeting girls / possibly getting laid by girls instead of so much time on games and being awkward when around others that aren't fellow gamers then this won't change. The reason women get so much attention is all the socially awkward guys that can interact with others without games being involved in some way Said guy gets girlfriend and he will quickly lose interest in women in sc2 unless they warrant some attention through being good caster or player.
This sounds sad, but is very probably true. Everytime a normal looking female person appears on a streamed event, the forum here gets completely hyped: "Omg, she looks so awesome!", while I have to think to "Well yes, sure ~20yo girls usually look nice, but what's the hype? Anyone been in a club, disco or at least out on the street recently?"
Are you kidding me? Those people are just half trolling being stupid aka kids. It's not serious... The fact you just stereotyped this entire community as " socially awkward guys that can interact with others without games being involved in some way" seems... (i left out the description cause i would get banned for it, but im sure you can see where i was going with this)
I don't know if that leads anywhere and I am not on a trip to enrage you, but if you replace "this entire community" with "a large vocal part of every gaming website on the internet", that is basically it.
True, i misjudged the scope. You simply mean that everbody who ever said something stupid on these forums like "damn shes hot" is a socially awkward guy that can interact with others without games being involved in some way. Much better.
Thing is that i responded so strongly is because im feeling alot of cynisme and pessisme around here. Very bad vibe. You just stereotype these people and judge them right in their face. I actually read a blog a couple of days ago by a guy calling himself fatfail. I just can't escape this idea that some of the people here could use a compliment much more then your judgement.
O and i just so you know. You can read every post i ever made: im not one off the people you just judged. just had to call you out
So, as far as I understand, we are talking of last weeks event, where Scarlett won the Blizz qualifyers sweeping the floor with many other well established players and even made her ultras dance in the last game, and where Soe did an amazing job not only at interviewing but also showing that she knows and genuinely enjoys the game, even daring to co-cast along with Day 9.
And now this post is open, asking "How to present females in the SCII-community?", and it centers around a playmate girl with 20 minutes of total screen time in the event, that was hired by a company to promote their products? Really??
I don't know if the short sightness is fortuite or voluntary.
On July 19 2012 02:48 HardlyNever wrote: TBH I almost always cringe and mute/go to a different tab when the female hosts/interviewers do their thing. Heck, I often do even when it's the males. It just feels so awkward and forced, and that isn't always the hosts' fault, sometimes it is.
It just always feels so forced. It is like the booth babes at E3 and stuff. It is just such a thinly veiled marketing ploy that I can't really bear it. I'm not sure the community even wants that; it screams marketing done by someone who isn't really part of the community. It is so basic and obvious; "hey there is this community with a lot of young males, young males like attractive girls, lets shoehorn attractive girls into anything we can!" Does the community really want that? I'm not sure it does, I think it wants people who genuinely feel like they are interested in Starcraft and are part of the community as well. If they happen to be female, then great, but they have to have a genuine interest in the community first, or it just feels awkward to me (not to mention they are always dressed in ways to make them stand out to a ridiculous degree).
Maybe I'm in the minority, but I watch Starcraft to watch Starcraft, and get involved and enthusiastic about the event with people who feel the same way. The "eye candy" thing is just so poorly done it detracts from the experience, for me.
It's good to hear that I'm not the only one who does that (cringe/mute) with interviews and female hosts. Awkward and forced is exactly how I feel about these things, too. I don't care about the gender of the people involved. The main thing is having passion and wanting to share that. That's why it's such a joy to watch someone like Day[9] cast a game -- he's ridiculously passionate. And he even manages to make those forced interviews to make somewhat nice because he just fills them with the fun and humor he's overflowing with!
One of these things is not like the other
But more seriously, regarding this entire thread is it such a big deal? We have this discussion every time there's a female on camera. Until they actually have booth babes in bikinis does it matter so much?
Even this threadtitle succeeds in sounding creepy. It also doesn't help seeing a bunch of guys in their t-shirt and maybe a fancy jacket and then have girls parade around in pretty dresses on certain tournaments.
Also the insta fanclub thread that's added the second a female caster/player comes into the spotlight or a huge discussion about something totally unrelated to the game whenever a minor detail becomes clear about a new player/caster.
The subject of females in esports is being handled completely childish and before that has settled girls might have a shot at gaining honest respect as an e-sports "athlete" but it will not be because they're such a good player for a good while to come.
I have no problem with women hosts/interviewers or when they wear dresses. I was only disappointed they hired lauren cause I don't think she's needed when you already have women involved in the scene like megumixbear, rachel, anna, etc. I was disappointed they didn't use megumi, since she already did segments for NASL and hosted their sunday barcrafts, so I felt like it was a slap in her face when she already worked so closely with them during the season and was passed over.
I do think there is a double standard and women do get scrutinized more heavily any time they appear. I will still never understand all the hoopla over dresses on stage, since male casters/hosts wear suits, so it's natural for women to wear dresses too, so it's no big deal to me.
On July 19 2012 03:09 amazingoopah wrote: why do people in these forums get so worked up about this? Same thing that happened with Lindsey Sporrer (who btw totally disappeared off the face of the pro sc2 community after all the commotion about her).
Even the vaunted Koreans have had stargirls in the booths during starleague games. Don't see why there always a section of the community hyperventilating about this.
Probably because after one appearance nerds started raiding FB stalking her and making jokes nonstop and drooling.
There does seem to be a double standard when when it comes to women at events. People start demanding their qualifications for appearing at the event and demanding to know why people who "know more about the game" were not hired. Yet, if it is a guy who is hired, no one cares why he is at the event.
absolutely not. If a man hosts an event and does know shit about the game/the scene he will get the full critcism and flame, the SC2 community is able to pull off. I don't see why this should be different for women!
On July 18 2012 13:33 GertHeart wrote: I'll sum it up kinda short and sweet to you how unfortunately most people are retarded and don't realize it.
Nada's body thread = Acceptable.
Lauren Elise's body thread(Or any other female.) = Unacceptable.
Most guys and gals are retarded in this section, you actually have to fight how you were raised more than anything. This is what's branded in most cultures and races, women are less than men, that's how it's treated in most places in the world.
Women get more shit because people won't fight how they were raised or disagree immediately instead of realizing that was their upbringing in the works.
Wouldn't it be the opposite? To me a *woman's body thread* would be pathetic and sexist, while Nada's body is more tongue in cheek. That's how I've been raised, sad as it is.
That's what I'm saying. That's how you're all raised that Nada is acceptable and has earned the right, and the woman hasn't. So one is sexist and the other isn't. When in reality they are no different from each other minus the accomplishments. I remember when KellyMilkies did a FHM photo shoot. For those unaware, KellyMilkies has done a lot in the community for more than 5 years in all of gaming not just SC2. Yet she got so much backlash for it. That's our community and every other gaming community. Uneducated on your own upbringing always lashing out at women more than men. Most don't even realize they do it. You're daughter has to be home by 9 your son can be back the next morning. etc... etc...
On July 18 2012 13:43 Space Invader wrote: What do you mean, 'you people'?
What do you mean, 'you people'?
On July 18 2012 13:33 GertHeart wrote: I'll sum it up kinda short and sweet to you how unfortunately most people are retarded and don't realize it.
Nada's body thread = Acceptable.
Lauren Elise's body thread(Or any other female.) = Unacceptable.
Most guys and gals are retarded in this section, you actually have to fight how you were raised more than anything. This is what's branded in most cultures and races, women are less than men, that's how it's treated in most places in the world.
Women get more shit because people won't fight how they were raised or disagree immediately instead of realizing that was their upbringing in the works.
Wouldn't it be the opposite? To me a *woman's body thread* would be pathetic and sexist, while Nada's body is more tongue in cheek. That's how I've been raised, sad as it is.
That's what I'm saying. That's how you're all raised that Nada is acceptable and has earned the right, and the woman hasn't. So one is sexist and the other isn't. When in reality they are no different from each other minus the accomplishments. I remember when KellyMilkies did a FHM photo shoot. For those unaware, KellyMilkies has done a lot in the community for more than 5 years in all of gaming not just SC2. Yet she got so much backlash for it. That's our community and every other gaming community. Uneducated on your own upbringing always lashing out at women more than men. Most don't even realize they do it. You're daughter has to be home by 9 your son can be back the next morning. etc... etc...
Kellymilkies hasn't done a lot for the community. In fact, she's pretty universally disliked in the DotA and LoL communities for her..antics.
Great points raised by the OP and ones that I almost fully agree with. For me, as a person who watches most of the big tournaments but has probably missed a few along the way, I haven't seen a female host that has been particularly bad. Anna Prosser, megumixbear and Rachel Quirico are the three that come to mind instantly and they all did a fantastic job.
NASL's hiring of Lauren for the NASL Finals was a huge mistake. Apart from being 'eye candy' as you put it, she offered nothing to the show (and Lauren if you read this, I am not saying you are a bad host, it's that you did not fit into an eSports Tournament).
Personally, I would have asked Clutch to do the hosting as well as emceeing. That man is a savior.
On July 19 2012 02:48 HardlyNever wrote: TBH I almost always cringe and mute/go to a different tab when the female hosts/interviewers do their thing. Heck, I often do even when it's the males. It just feels so awkward and forced, and that isn't always the hosts' fault, sometimes it is.
It just always feels so forced. It is like the booth babes at E3 and stuff. It is just such a thinly veiled marketing ploy that I can't really bear it. I'm not sure the community even wants that; it screams marketing done by someone who isn't really part of the community. It is so basic and obvious; "hey there is this community with a lot of young males, young males like attractive girls, lets shoehorn attractive girls into anything we can!" Does the community really want that? I'm not sure it does, I think it wants people who genuinely feel like they are interested in Starcraft and are part of the community as well. If they happen to be female, then great, but they have to have a genuine interest in the community first, or it just feels awkward to me (not to mention they are always dressed in ways to make them stand out to a ridiculous degree).
Maybe I'm in the minority, but I watch Starcraft to watch Starcraft, and get involved and enthusiastic about the event with people who feel the same way. The "eye candy" thing is just so poorly done it detracts from the experience, for me.
It's good to hear that I'm not the only one who does that (cringe/mute) with interviews and female hosts. Awkward and forced is exactly how I feel about these things, too. I don't care about the gender of the people involved. The main thing is having passion and wanting to share that. That's why it's such a joy to watch someone like Day[9] cast a game -- he's ridiculously passionate. And he even manages to make those forced interviews to make somewhat nice because he just fills them with the fun and humor he's overflowing with!
One of these things is not like the other
But more seriously, regarding this entire thread is it such a big deal? We have this discussion every time there's a female on camera. Until they actually have booth babes in bikinis does it matter so much?
I told the producer that he needs to stuff her in a bikini and have her walk across the stage with "SET 1" "SET 2" etc... signs next time.
At least that way, they'll have earned all this unwarranted hate.
I think the OP is confusing what Lauren did(her job had NOTHING TO DO WITH SC2 KNOWLEDGE) and I think many posters here didn't watch the event as they too, seem to think that Lauren's job is different than what the reality was at the event.
I cannot fathom or understand why having a male or a female with SC2 knowledge be a host is important. They are not casters. They are not analyzing the game. They are hosts...
EPT
