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Why is everyone being so damn nostalgic, think for a second...would lurker really fit into SC2?
I really loved how lurker worked in BW, but to me it seems it overlaps with banelings too much. You can already control space(not as well, give you that) with burowed banes.
With how everything is smooth, I doubt lurkers would feel as strong in SC2 as in BW.
But dunno, maybe add lurker in and keep swarm host lol. 4 lings, 2 lurkers, 2 swarm hosts, a roach and a hydra...time to play zerg like it's WC3.
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Lurker is a never dying unit swarm host maybe is. If the swarm host doesn't work in the beta or its so good they have to nerf it to the point that no one will use it they should take the lurker instead.
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On August 22 2012 18:27 Andr3 wrote:
Why is everyone being so damn nostalgic, think for a second...would lurker really fit into SC2?
I really loved how lurker worked in BW, but to me it seems it overlaps with banelings too much. You can already control space(not as well, give you that) with burowed banes.
With how everything is smooth, I doubt lurkers would feel as strong in SC2 as in BW.
But dunno, maybe add lurker in and keep swarm host lol. 4 lings, 2 lurkers, 2 swarm hosts, a roach and a hydra...time to play zerg like it's WC3.
Have you considered that perhaps it is more than nostalgia? That maybe the swarm host is underwhelming when compared to the lurker, based off the examples given in the OP?
As to your last - personally, I think that the units in SC2 cost too much supply. And yes, perhaps the lurker does overlap with banelings too much. That is something to consider. But I think that banelings do not work to control space due to the fact that that they have a 1 time attack.
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On August 22 2012 19:00 Qwyn wrote:Show nested quote +On August 22 2012 18:27 Andr3 wrote:
Why is everyone being so damn nostalgic, think for a second...would lurker really fit into SC2?
I really loved how lurker worked in BW, but to me it seems it overlaps with banelings too much. You can already control space(not as well, give you that) with burowed banes.
With how everything is smooth, I doubt lurkers would feel as strong in SC2 as in BW.
But dunno, maybe add lurker in and keep swarm host lol. 4 lings, 2 lurkers, 2 swarm hosts, a roach and a hydra...time to play zerg like it's WC3. Have you considered that perhaps it is more than nostalgia? That maybe the swarm host is underwhelming when compared to the lurker, based off the examples given in the OP? As to your last - personally, I think that the units in SC2 cost too much supply. And yes, perhaps the lurker does overlap with banelings too much. That is something to consider. But I think that banelings do not work to control space due to the fact that that they have a 1 time attack.
But the thing is, people don't give the swarm host a chance. Hell we don't even know how it plays since none of us have.
No a custom map that is god knows how old does not count. Can we at least see how it plays before yelling it should be switched with a unit that requires to change everything.
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On August 22 2012 16:31 Qwyn wrote:Show nested quote +On August 22 2012 05:05 sunprince wrote:On August 21 2012 08:52 Assirra wrote:On August 21 2012 08:38 RogerChillingworth wrote:On August 21 2012 08:30 imallinson wrote:On August 21 2012 08:10 sunprince wrote:On August 20 2012 12:54 sluggaslamoo wrote:On August 20 2012 12:46 -NegativeZero- wrote:On July 22 2012 09:54 Assirra wrote:On July 22 2012 09:37 0neder wrote:
[quote]
Easy fix, switch roaches or banelings to tier 2. Or just nerf spawn larvae a bit as well. So to fix a problem you self created by implementing a unit that is not supposed to be there you create something that have to be fixed by another fix. Like i said before you are now switching the whole game around and for what? cause you want that 1 unit in the game. At this rate just make sc3 or better sc2 bw cause we all know that is what it is gonne become. Actually roach/hydra switched around would make a lot of sense, and that is originally how the game was designed in early alpha. Hydras' low health makes more sense for a spammable tier 1 unit, and the roach abilities that had to be removed due to being OP would actually be viable on a 100/50 tier 2 specialized tanking unit (2 armor, 5 hp/second health regen). But seriously, what is the actual point of roaches? 1 supply 75/25 Hydras could do everything roaches can and more. The unit overlap between roaches and hydras is ridiculous. IMO the roach feels more like a protoss unit than a zerg unit. Originally, the point of roaches were to serve as self-healing tanks (e.g. tough due to somewhat tanky stats supplemented by healing) that required enemies to micro (focus-fire) to deal with. The concept is in the name; cockroaches are annoyingly hard to kill. Roaches with the following changes would easily work alongside T1 hydras and lurkers without too much overlap: • Cost increased from 75/25, 27 seconds to 100/50, 40 seconds. • Armor increased from 1 to 2. • Damage increased from 16 (+2) to 22 (+2) • Roach now regenerates 5 life per second burrowed or unburrowed. • Tunneling Claws upgrade removed. • Organic Carapace upgrade added to Roach Warren: • • Requires Hive • • Cost: 150/150, 110 seconds • • Increases roach regeneration to 10 life per second. Instead of trying to switch Hydras and Roaches or making both tier 1. Would it not be much easier to have lurkers morph from roaches? "trying"? It takes no effort. The switch is just because mechanically, and historically, it seems a lot better for the game. Roaches were designed as more of a specialty unit, not the 'en masse' shit we're seeing. Except its not this easy as you might claim. By doing this you need to change everything else. You cannot simply change a unit and except the rest to be the same. You're right, other changes would be needed. But this isn't necessarily a bad thing, as we could go and fix a number of other problems with Zerg such as overpowered spawn larvae all at once (and why not, since it's Heart of the Swarm?). Here would be the necessary patch notes to integrate lurks, move hydras to Tier 1, and fix spawn larvae: Queen• Spawn larva now costs 50 energy and is instantaneous. Zergling• Radius decreased from 0.375 to 0.265625. • Rate of fire increased from 0.696 to 0.546875. • Move speed increased from 2.9531 to 3.109375 • Metabolic boost research time decreased from 110 seconds to 80 seconds. • Upgraded move speed decreased from 4.6991 to 4.546875. • Adrenal glands research time decreased from 130 to 80. • Upgraded rate of fire increased from 0.497 to 0.40625. Baneling / Baneling Nest / Centrifugal Hooks• Removed from multiplayer. Roach• Cost increased from 75/25, 27 seconds to 100/50, 40 seconds. • Armor increased from 1 to 2. • Damage increased from 16 (+2) to 22 (+2) • Roach now regenerates 5 life per second burrowed or unburrowed. • Tunneling Claws upgrade removed. • Organic Carapace upgrade added to Roach Warren: • • Requires Hive • • Cost: 150/150, 110 seconds • • Increases roach regeneration to 10 life per second. Hydralisk• Radius decreased from 0.625 to 0.34375 • Cost decreased from 100/50, 33 seconds, 2 supply to 75/25, 24 seconds, 1 supply • Light attribute removed • Ground and air damage decreased from 12 (+1) to 5 (+1) (+3 armored). • Rate of fire decreased from 0.83 to 1.015625. • Move speed decreased from 2.25 to 2.109375. • Speed multiplier on creep decreased from 1.5 to 1.3. • Grooved Spines upgrade removed. • Muscular Augments upgrade added to Hydralisk Den: • • Cost: 150/150, 80 seconds • • Increases hydralisk move speed to 3.109375 • Lurker morph added. • • Requires Lurker Aspect • • Cost: 50/100, 33 seconds, 1 supply Hydralisk Den• Now requires Spawning Pool instead of Lair. • Cost decreased from 100/100, 40 seconds to 100/50, 33 seconds • Lurker Aspect upgrade added: • • Requires Lair • • Cost: 200/200, 100 seconds Lurker• Ground Unit - 0.515625 radius • Burrowed Attacker • Cost: 50/100, 33 seconds, 1 supply • 125 life, 1 armor • Biological, Armored • Ground Attack: 20 (+2) • Range: 6 • Rate of Fire: 2.515625 • Sight: 10 • Move Speed: 3.375 • Speed Multiplier on Creep: 1.3 Lol, did you just copy the BW patch stats.
For Zerglings, Hydras, and Lurkers, yep (except for the hydra range upgrade, which is provided free just as stalkers and marines are).
On August 22 2012 16:31 Qwyn wrote:
You can keep the tiers swapped, just make hydras 1 supply and roaches 2 supply. That way you still keep the interesting air dynamic against zerg while still allowing hydras to be massed. Change stats back to BW level.
There isn't any interesting air dynamic against Zerg. It's not as if Zerg is helpless against air during T1, not when queens and spores are the main counters anyway.
On August 22 2012 16:31 Qwyn wrote:
Instead of making spawn larva 50 energy and instantaneous (this is a bit rediculous IMO) instead just reduce larva spawn quantity to 2. This keeps the apm requirement and allows for hydra switch. Lurkers can require a 1 min upgrade at the hydra den at lair?
The key is that this brings the Spawn Larva in line with the other macro mechanics (while cutting it's power in half), removing the fact that only Zerg is unable to make up for late macro mechanic usage by simply spamming it later (e.g. mule/chrono spam). Reducing Spawn Larva to 2 eggs could also work, just without addressing the second issue.
On August 22 2012 16:31 Qwyn wrote:
Lurker ground attack has to be increased to something like 25 (+15 to armor) if it is going to be 3 supply. Although in all honesty it would be way better if it were 2 supply. The units in SC2 cost too much supply. This is also just a side effect of how the economy system works. Would be better in 1 gas format.
It isn't. You'll notice that in the costs section of my proposed lurker stats, it costs 1 more supply in addition to the 1 supply of hydras.
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we don't need another unit to make terran needs to micro their marine even more than they need to anymore.
Swarm host really is a better unit that fit in SC2.
Zerg has ling run-bys, infestors, spines, creep, burrow banelings etc to slow down pushes.
What zerg needs is another way to play their mid game, since now that muta is out of style in ZvT and only good on some maps for ZvP. Every game is relying so much on infestors style.
Swarm host looks pretty good for a unit that allows zerg to open up a new mid game unit composition, maybe with hydras just like the showcase video showed.
We don't want more splash burst damage, battles in SC2 already are lasting too short as many has said. Slow pushes can solve this problem well.
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On August 23 2012 10:48 ETisME wrote:
we don't need another unit to make terran needs to micro their marine even more than they need to anymore.
Swarm host really is a better unit that fit in SC2.
Zerg has ling run-bys, infestors, spines, creep, burrow banelings etc to slow down pushes.
What zerg needs is another way to play their mid game, since now that muta is out of style in ZvT and only good on some maps for ZvP. Every game is relying so much on infestors style.
Swarm host looks pretty good for a unit that allows zerg to open up a new mid game unit composition, maybe with hydras just like the showcase video showed.
We don't want more splash burst damage, battles in SC2 already are lasting too short as many has said. Slow pushes can solve this problem well.
I've always thought that zerg could have lurkers instead of the infestors from the beginning at starcraft 2 mostly because i miss lurkers from BW but now i'm thinking naww why?
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I think polling this site, you're ALWAYS gonna have lurker winning haha.
That said though, I think both units look cool but from a spectator point of view the lurker is definitely way more entertaining. There is almost nothing interesting about spectating a swarm host borrow (unless someone hides a bunch in an enemy base or something)
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Swarm Hosts replace broodlords they both spawn free units, Broodlords are more vulnerable cost more, Higher Tech, and cost more supply. Swarm hosts shoot air are available at Infestation pit, and are not killable without detection. So Lurkers are much better as they don't 100% overlap another unit.
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On August 23 2012 06:55 sunprince wrote:Show nested quote +On August 22 2012 16:31 Qwyn wrote:On August 22 2012 05:05 sunprince wrote:On August 21 2012 08:52 Assirra wrote:On August 21 2012 08:38 RogerChillingworth wrote:On August 21 2012 08:30 imallinson wrote:On August 21 2012 08:10 sunprince wrote:On August 20 2012 12:54 sluggaslamoo wrote:On August 20 2012 12:46 -NegativeZero- wrote:On July 22 2012 09:54 Assirra wrote:
[quote]
So to fix a problem you self created by implementing a unit that is not supposed to be there you create something that have to be fixed by another fix.
Like i said before you are now switching the whole game around and for what? cause you want that 1 unit in the game.
At this rate just make sc3 or better sc2 bw cause we all know that is what it is gonne become. Actually roach/hydra switched around would make a lot of sense, and that is originally how the game was designed in early alpha. Hydras' low health makes more sense for a spammable tier 1 unit, and the roach abilities that had to be removed due to being OP would actually be viable on a 100/50 tier 2 specialized tanking unit (2 armor, 5 hp/second health regen). But seriously, what is the actual point of roaches? 1 supply 75/25 Hydras could do everything roaches can and more. The unit overlap between roaches and hydras is ridiculous. IMO the roach feels more like a protoss unit than a zerg unit. Originally, the point of roaches were to serve as self-healing tanks (e.g. tough due to somewhat tanky stats supplemented by healing) that required enemies to micro (focus-fire) to deal with. The concept is in the name; cockroaches are annoyingly hard to kill. Roaches with the following changes would easily work alongside T1 hydras and lurkers without too much overlap: • Cost increased from 75/25, 27 seconds to 100/50, 40 seconds. • Armor increased from 1 to 2. • Damage increased from 16 (+2) to 22 (+2) • Roach now regenerates 5 life per second burrowed or unburrowed. • Tunneling Claws upgrade removed. • Organic Carapace upgrade added to Roach Warren: • • Requires Hive • • Cost: 150/150, 110 seconds • • Increases roach regeneration to 10 life per second. Instead of trying to switch Hydras and Roaches or making both tier 1. Would it not be much easier to have lurkers morph from roaches? "trying"? It takes no effort. The switch is just because mechanically, and historically, it seems a lot better for the game. Roaches were designed as more of a specialty unit, not the 'en masse' shit we're seeing. Except its not this easy as you might claim. By doing this you need to change everything else. You cannot simply change a unit and except the rest to be the same. You're right, other changes would be needed. But this isn't necessarily a bad thing, as we could go and fix a number of other problems with Zerg such as overpowered spawn larvae all at once (and why not, since it's Heart of the Swarm?). Here would be the necessary patch notes to integrate lurks, move hydras to Tier 1, and fix spawn larvae: Queen• Spawn larva now costs 50 energy and is instantaneous. Zergling• Radius decreased from 0.375 to 0.265625. • Rate of fire increased from 0.696 to 0.546875. • Move speed increased from 2.9531 to 3.109375 • Metabolic boost research time decreased from 110 seconds to 80 seconds. • Upgraded move speed decreased from 4.6991 to 4.546875. • Adrenal glands research time decreased from 130 to 80. • Upgraded rate of fire increased from 0.497 to 0.40625. Baneling / Baneling Nest / Centrifugal Hooks• Removed from multiplayer. Roach• Cost increased from 75/25, 27 seconds to 100/50, 40 seconds. • Armor increased from 1 to 2. • Damage increased from 16 (+2) to 22 (+2) • Roach now regenerates 5 life per second burrowed or unburrowed. • Tunneling Claws upgrade removed. • Organic Carapace upgrade added to Roach Warren: • • Requires Hive • • Cost: 150/150, 110 seconds • • Increases roach regeneration to 10 life per second. Hydralisk• Radius decreased from 0.625 to 0.34375 • Cost decreased from 100/50, 33 seconds, 2 supply to 75/25, 24 seconds, 1 supply • Light attribute removed • Ground and air damage decreased from 12 (+1) to 5 (+1) (+3 armored). • Rate of fire decreased from 0.83 to 1.015625. • Move speed decreased from 2.25 to 2.109375. • Speed multiplier on creep decreased from 1.5 to 1.3. • Grooved Spines upgrade removed. • Muscular Augments upgrade added to Hydralisk Den: • • Cost: 150/150, 80 seconds • • Increases hydralisk move speed to 3.109375 • Lurker morph added. • • Requires Lurker Aspect • • Cost: 50/100, 33 seconds, 1 supply Hydralisk Den• Now requires Spawning Pool instead of Lair. • Cost decreased from 100/100, 40 seconds to 100/50, 33 seconds • Lurker Aspect upgrade added: • • Requires Lair • • Cost: 200/200, 100 seconds Lurker• Ground Unit - 0.515625 radius • Burrowed Attacker • Cost: 50/100, 33 seconds, 1 supply • 125 life, 1 armor • Biological, Armored • Ground Attack: 20 (+2) • Range: 6 • Rate of Fire: 2.515625 • Sight: 10 • Move Speed: 3.375 • Speed Multiplier on Creep: 1.3 Lol, did you just copy the BW patch stats. For Zerglings, Hydras, and Lurkers, yep (except for the hydra range upgrade, which is provided free just as stalkers and marines are). Show nested quote +On August 22 2012 16:31 Qwyn wrote:
You can keep the tiers swapped, just make hydras 1 supply and roaches 2 supply. That way you still keep the interesting air dynamic against zerg while still allowing hydras to be massed. Change stats back to BW level. There isn't any interesting air dynamic against Zerg. It's not as if Zerg is helpless against air during T1, not when queens and spores are the main counters anyway. Show nested quote +On August 22 2012 16:31 Qwyn wrote:
Instead of making spawn larva 50 energy and instantaneous (this is a bit rediculous IMO) instead just reduce larva spawn quantity to 2. This keeps the apm requirement and allows for hydra switch. Lurkers can require a 1 min upgrade at the hydra den at lair? The key is that this brings the Spawn Larva in line with the other macro mechanics (while cutting it's power in half), removing the fact that only Zerg is unable to make up for late macro mechanic usage by simply spamming it later (e.g. mule/chrono spam). Reducing Spawn Larva to 2 eggs could also work, just without addressing the second issue. Show nested quote +On August 22 2012 16:31 Qwyn wrote:
Lurker ground attack has to be increased to something like 25 (+15 to armor) if it is going to be 3 supply. Although in all honesty it would be way better if it were 2 supply. The units in SC2 cost too much supply. This is also just a side effect of how the economy system works. Would be better in 1 gas format. It isn't. You'll notice that in the costs section of my proposed lurker stats, it costs 1 more supply in addition to the 1 supply of hydras.
Yep, I was going to mention that the air dynamic against zerg has been nullified - but I've been speaking in terms of the expansion, is all.
I think that having spawn larva be a more punishing mechanic is just fine. However, reducing inject larva amount DOES help with both issues you addressed, in that it makes the punishment for failing to have constant injects less severe. It also allows for different strategies, such as taking more hatcheries, be viable. It would reduce the necessity of getting queens for larva and allow different choices to be made. Changing inject to be 50 energy is just too severe of a penalty.
Right, proposed lurker stats are all good, but I am speaking somewhat in line with what Blizzard might actually consider - or how the unit would turn out if it were implemented. SC2 units have a higher supply count than their BW counterparts, and the lurker, being a power unit, would likely fall in line with the current SH stats (3 supply) if it were implemented. I don't know why Blizzard insists on making swarm units such high supply, but it isn't very good design.
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This isn't Brood War. Get over it.
Forum Poster: Not Long Ago
Nonsensical BW nostalgia.
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I never enjoyed playing with or against Lurkers. The Swarm Host looks like it could be fun, though.
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On August 23 2012 11:01 Qwyn wrote:Show nested quote +On August 23 2012 06:55 sunprince wrote:On August 22 2012 16:31 Qwyn wrote:On August 22 2012 05:05 sunprince wrote:On August 21 2012 08:52 Assirra wrote:On August 21 2012 08:38 RogerChillingworth wrote:On August 21 2012 08:30 imallinson wrote:On August 21 2012 08:10 sunprince wrote:On August 20 2012 12:54 sluggaslamoo wrote:On August 20 2012 12:46 -NegativeZero- wrote:
[quote]
Actually roach/hydra switched around would make a lot of sense, and that is originally how the game was designed in early alpha. Hydras' low health makes more sense for a spammable tier 1 unit, and the roach abilities that had to be removed due to being OP would actually be viable on a 100/50 tier 2 specialized tanking unit (2 armor, 5 hp/second health regen). But seriously, what is the actual point of roaches? 1 supply 75/25 Hydras could do everything roaches can and more. The unit overlap between roaches and hydras is ridiculous. IMO the roach feels more like a protoss unit than a zerg unit. Originally, the point of roaches were to serve as self-healing tanks (e.g. tough due to somewhat tanky stats supplemented by healing) that required enemies to micro (focus-fire) to deal with. The concept is in the name; cockroaches are annoyingly hard to kill. Roaches with the following changes would easily work alongside T1 hydras and lurkers without too much overlap: • Cost increased from 75/25, 27 seconds to 100/50, 40 seconds. • Armor increased from 1 to 2. • Damage increased from 16 (+2) to 22 (+2) • Roach now regenerates 5 life per second burrowed or unburrowed. • Tunneling Claws upgrade removed. • Organic Carapace upgrade added to Roach Warren: • • Requires Hive • • Cost: 150/150, 110 seconds • • Increases roach regeneration to 10 life per second. Instead of trying to switch Hydras and Roaches or making both tier 1. Would it not be much easier to have lurkers morph from roaches? "trying"? It takes no effort. The switch is just because mechanically, and historically, it seems a lot better for the game. Roaches were designed as more of a specialty unit, not the 'en masse' shit we're seeing. Except its not this easy as you might claim. By doing this you need to change everything else. You cannot simply change a unit and except the rest to be the same. You're right, other changes would be needed. But this isn't necessarily a bad thing, as we could go and fix a number of other problems with Zerg such as overpowered spawn larvae all at once (and why not, since it's Heart of the Swarm?). Here would be the necessary patch notes to integrate lurks, move hydras to Tier 1, and fix spawn larvae: Queen• Spawn larva now costs 50 energy and is instantaneous. Zergling• Radius decreased from 0.375 to 0.265625. • Rate of fire increased from 0.696 to 0.546875. • Move speed increased from 2.9531 to 3.109375 • Metabolic boost research time decreased from 110 seconds to 80 seconds. • Upgraded move speed decreased from 4.6991 to 4.546875. • Adrenal glands research time decreased from 130 to 80. • Upgraded rate of fire increased from 0.497 to 0.40625. Baneling / Baneling Nest / Centrifugal Hooks• Removed from multiplayer. Roach• Cost increased from 75/25, 27 seconds to 100/50, 40 seconds. • Armor increased from 1 to 2. • Damage increased from 16 (+2) to 22 (+2) • Roach now regenerates 5 life per second burrowed or unburrowed. • Tunneling Claws upgrade removed. • Organic Carapace upgrade added to Roach Warren: • • Requires Hive • • Cost: 150/150, 110 seconds • • Increases roach regeneration to 10 life per second. Hydralisk• Radius decreased from 0.625 to 0.34375 • Cost decreased from 100/50, 33 seconds, 2 supply to 75/25, 24 seconds, 1 supply • Light attribute removed • Ground and air damage decreased from 12 (+1) to 5 (+1) (+3 armored). • Rate of fire decreased from 0.83 to 1.015625. • Move speed decreased from 2.25 to 2.109375. • Speed multiplier on creep decreased from 1.5 to 1.3. • Grooved Spines upgrade removed. • Muscular Augments upgrade added to Hydralisk Den: • • Cost: 150/150, 80 seconds • • Increases hydralisk move speed to 3.109375 • Lurker morph added. • • Requires Lurker Aspect • • Cost: 50/100, 33 seconds, 1 supply Hydralisk Den• Now requires Spawning Pool instead of Lair. • Cost decreased from 100/100, 40 seconds to 100/50, 33 seconds • Lurker Aspect upgrade added: • • Requires Lair • • Cost: 200/200, 100 seconds Lurker• Ground Unit - 0.515625 radius • Burrowed Attacker • Cost: 50/100, 33 seconds, 1 supply • 125 life, 1 armor • Biological, Armored • Ground Attack: 20 (+2) • Range: 6 • Rate of Fire: 2.515625 • Sight: 10 • Move Speed: 3.375 • Speed Multiplier on Creep: 1.3 Lol, did you just copy the BW patch stats. For Zerglings, Hydras, and Lurkers, yep (except for the hydra range upgrade, which is provided free just as stalkers and marines are). On August 22 2012 16:31 Qwyn wrote:
You can keep the tiers swapped, just make hydras 1 supply and roaches 2 supply. That way you still keep the interesting air dynamic against zerg while still allowing hydras to be massed. Change stats back to BW level. There isn't any interesting air dynamic against Zerg. It's not as if Zerg is helpless against air during T1, not when queens and spores are the main counters anyway. On August 22 2012 16:31 Qwyn wrote:
Instead of making spawn larva 50 energy and instantaneous (this is a bit rediculous IMO) instead just reduce larva spawn quantity to 2. This keeps the apm requirement and allows for hydra switch. Lurkers can require a 1 min upgrade at the hydra den at lair? The key is that this brings the Spawn Larva in line with the other macro mechanics (while cutting it's power in half), removing the fact that only Zerg is unable to make up for late macro mechanic usage by simply spamming it later (e.g. mule/chrono spam). Reducing Spawn Larva to 2 eggs could also work, just without addressing the second issue. On August 22 2012 16:31 Qwyn wrote:
Lurker ground attack has to be increased to something like 25 (+15 to armor) if it is going to be 3 supply. Although in all honesty it would be way better if it were 2 supply. The units in SC2 cost too much supply. This is also just a side effect of how the economy system works. Would be better in 1 gas format. It isn't. You'll notice that in the costs section of my proposed lurker stats, it costs 1 more supply in addition to the 1 supply of hydras. Yep, I was going to mention that the air dynamic against zerg has been nullified - but I've been speaking in terms of the expansion, is all. I think that having spawn larva be a more punishing mechanic is just fine. However, reducing inject larva amount DOES help with both issues you addressed, in that it makes the punishment for failing to have constant injects less severe. It also allows for different strategies, such as taking more hatcheries, be viable. It would reduce the necessity of getting queens for larva and allow different choices to be made. Changing inject to be 50 energy is just too severe of a penalty.
Changing inject to 50 energy is the same penalty as reducing it to 2 eggs; think about it! In fact, it's less severe of a penalty because it renders it less punishing.
On August 22 2012 16:31 Qwyn wrote:
Right, proposed lurker stats are all good, but I am speaking somewhat in line with what Blizzard might actually consider - or how the unit would turn out if it were implemented. SC2 units have a higher supply count than their BW counterparts, and the lurker, being a power unit, would likely fall in line with the current SH stats (3 supply) if it were implemented. I don't know why Blizzard insists on making swarm units such high supply, but it isn't very good design.
Well, part of the point we're making here is that Blizzard's design philosophy with respect to Zerg needs some improvement.
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On August 23 2012 16:21 sunprince wrote:Show nested quote +On August 23 2012 11:01 Qwyn wrote:On August 23 2012 06:55 sunprince wrote:On August 22 2012 16:31 Qwyn wrote:On August 22 2012 05:05 sunprince wrote:On August 21 2012 08:52 Assirra wrote:On August 21 2012 08:38 RogerChillingworth wrote:On August 21 2012 08:30 imallinson wrote:On August 21 2012 08:10 sunprince wrote:On August 20 2012 12:54 sluggaslamoo wrote:
[quote]
But seriously, what is the actual point of roaches?
1 supply 75/25 Hydras could do everything roaches can and more. The unit overlap between roaches and hydras is ridiculous. IMO the roach feels more like a protoss unit than a zerg unit. Originally, the point of roaches were to serve as self-healing tanks (e.g. tough due to somewhat tanky stats supplemented by healing) that required enemies to micro (focus-fire) to deal with. The concept is in the name; cockroaches are annoyingly hard to kill. Roaches with the following changes would easily work alongside T1 hydras and lurkers without too much overlap: • Cost increased from 75/25, 27 seconds to 100/50, 40 seconds. • Armor increased from 1 to 2. • Damage increased from 16 (+2) to 22 (+2) • Roach now regenerates 5 life per second burrowed or unburrowed. • Tunneling Claws upgrade removed. • Organic Carapace upgrade added to Roach Warren: • • Requires Hive • • Cost: 150/150, 110 seconds • • Increases roach regeneration to 10 life per second. Instead of trying to switch Hydras and Roaches or making both tier 1. Would it not be much easier to have lurkers morph from roaches? "trying"? It takes no effort. The switch is just because mechanically, and historically, it seems a lot better for the game. Roaches were designed as more of a specialty unit, not the 'en masse' shit we're seeing. Except its not this easy as you might claim. By doing this you need to change everything else. You cannot simply change a unit and except the rest to be the same. You're right, other changes would be needed. But this isn't necessarily a bad thing, as we could go and fix a number of other problems with Zerg such as overpowered spawn larvae all at once (and why not, since it's Heart of the Swarm?). Here would be the necessary patch notes to integrate lurks, move hydras to Tier 1, and fix spawn larvae: Queen• Spawn larva now costs 50 energy and is instantaneous. Zergling• Radius decreased from 0.375 to 0.265625. • Rate of fire increased from 0.696 to 0.546875. • Move speed increased from 2.9531 to 3.109375 • Metabolic boost research time decreased from 110 seconds to 80 seconds. • Upgraded move speed decreased from 4.6991 to 4.546875. • Adrenal glands research time decreased from 130 to 80. • Upgraded rate of fire increased from 0.497 to 0.40625. Baneling / Baneling Nest / Centrifugal Hooks• Removed from multiplayer. Roach• Cost increased from 75/25, 27 seconds to 100/50, 40 seconds. • Armor increased from 1 to 2. • Damage increased from 16 (+2) to 22 (+2) • Roach now regenerates 5 life per second burrowed or unburrowed. • Tunneling Claws upgrade removed. • Organic Carapace upgrade added to Roach Warren: • • Requires Hive • • Cost: 150/150, 110 seconds • • Increases roach regeneration to 10 life per second. Hydralisk• Radius decreased from 0.625 to 0.34375 • Cost decreased from 100/50, 33 seconds, 2 supply to 75/25, 24 seconds, 1 supply • Light attribute removed • Ground and air damage decreased from 12 (+1) to 5 (+1) (+3 armored). • Rate of fire decreased from 0.83 to 1.015625. • Move speed decreased from 2.25 to 2.109375. • Speed multiplier on creep decreased from 1.5 to 1.3. • Grooved Spines upgrade removed. • Muscular Augments upgrade added to Hydralisk Den: • • Cost: 150/150, 80 seconds • • Increases hydralisk move speed to 3.109375 • Lurker morph added. • • Requires Lurker Aspect • • Cost: 50/100, 33 seconds, 1 supply Hydralisk Den• Now requires Spawning Pool instead of Lair. • Cost decreased from 100/100, 40 seconds to 100/50, 33 seconds • Lurker Aspect upgrade added: • • Requires Lair • • Cost: 200/200, 100 seconds Lurker• Ground Unit - 0.515625 radius • Burrowed Attacker • Cost: 50/100, 33 seconds, 1 supply • 125 life, 1 armor • Biological, Armored • Ground Attack: 20 (+2) • Range: 6 • Rate of Fire: 2.515625 • Sight: 10 • Move Speed: 3.375 • Speed Multiplier on Creep: 1.3 Lol, did you just copy the BW patch stats. For Zerglings, Hydras, and Lurkers, yep (except for the hydra range upgrade, which is provided free just as stalkers and marines are). On August 22 2012 16:31 Qwyn wrote:
You can keep the tiers swapped, just make hydras 1 supply and roaches 2 supply. That way you still keep the interesting air dynamic against zerg while still allowing hydras to be massed. Change stats back to BW level. There isn't any interesting air dynamic against Zerg. It's not as if Zerg is helpless against air during T1, not when queens and spores are the main counters anyway. On August 22 2012 16:31 Qwyn wrote:
Instead of making spawn larva 50 energy and instantaneous (this is a bit rediculous IMO) instead just reduce larva spawn quantity to 2. This keeps the apm requirement and allows for hydra switch. Lurkers can require a 1 min upgrade at the hydra den at lair? The key is that this brings the Spawn Larva in line with the other macro mechanics (while cutting it's power in half), removing the fact that only Zerg is unable to make up for late macro mechanic usage by simply spamming it later (e.g. mule/chrono spam). Reducing Spawn Larva to 2 eggs could also work, just without addressing the second issue. On August 22 2012 16:31 Qwyn wrote:
Lurker ground attack has to be increased to something like 25 (+15 to armor) if it is going to be 3 supply. Although in all honesty it would be way better if it were 2 supply. The units in SC2 cost too much supply. This is also just a side effect of how the economy system works. Would be better in 1 gas format. It isn't. You'll notice that in the costs section of my proposed lurker stats, it costs 1 more supply in addition to the 1 supply of hydras. Yep, I was going to mention that the air dynamic against zerg has been nullified - but I've been speaking in terms of the expansion, is all. I think that having spawn larva be a more punishing mechanic is just fine. However, reducing inject larva amount DOES help with both issues you addressed, in that it makes the punishment for failing to have constant injects less severe. It also allows for different strategies, such as taking more hatcheries, be viable. It would reduce the necessity of getting queens for larva and allow different choices to be made. Changing inject to be 50 energy is just too severe of a penalty. Changing inject to 50 energy is the same penalty as reducing it to 2 eggs; think about it! In fact, it's less severe of a penalty because it renders it less punishing. Show nested quote +On August 22 2012 16:31 Qwyn wrote:
Right, proposed lurker stats are all good, but I am speaking somewhat in line with what Blizzard might actually consider - or how the unit would turn out if it were implemented. SC2 units have a higher supply count than their BW counterparts, and the lurker, being a power unit, would likely fall in line with the current SH stats (3 supply) if it were implemented. I don't know why Blizzard insists on making swarm units such high supply, but it isn't very good design. Well, part of the point we're making here is that Blizzard's design philosophy with respect to Zerg needs some improvement.
Nah, I have to disagree. Mathematically at first glance it looks the same, but when you consider the way the zerg economy works having to inject every 50 energy is way too harsh of a penalty. By having two larva pop off with every inject you allow a bit more constant rate of growth, droning faster. Basically, if you change it to 50 energy I see no reason to get queens b/c of the wait time inbetween each inject. I would just get two and never inject b/c it wouldn't be worth it anymore - the long interval between injecting reduces effectiveness of those four larva you gain in comparison to just taking another hatch. It all comes down to th fact that two larva at constant 45 second intervals is stronger growth wise than 4 larva every 90 (if inject is instant) seconds, is all.
Though I gotta say that having it be instant is a pretty big boost to that idea. Butinjecting is APM demanding in its current incarnation - I think that is a GOOD thing. Don't make the game easier, make it harder.
Agree with everything else. And that's not part of the point. THE POINT that is being made here is that Zerg design is flawed. These are just reasons to back it up.
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looks at poll. ok, swarm host it is...
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On August 23 2012 16:43 Qwyn wrote:Show nested quote +On August 23 2012 16:21 sunprince wrote:On August 23 2012 11:01 Qwyn wrote:On August 23 2012 06:55 sunprince wrote:On August 22 2012 16:31 Qwyn wrote:On August 22 2012 05:05 sunprince wrote:On August 21 2012 08:52 Assirra wrote:On August 21 2012 08:38 RogerChillingworth wrote:On August 21 2012 08:30 imallinson wrote:On August 21 2012 08:10 sunprince wrote:
[quote]
Originally, the point of roaches were to serve as self-healing tanks (e.g. tough due to somewhat tanky stats supplemented by healing) that required enemies to micro (focus-fire) to deal with. The concept is in the name; cockroaches are annoyingly hard to kill.
Roaches with the following changes would easily work alongside T1 hydras and lurkers without too much overlap:
• Cost increased from 75/25, 27 seconds to 100/50, 40 seconds.
• Armor increased from 1 to 2.
• Damage increased from 16 (+2) to 22 (+2)
• Roach now regenerates 5 life per second burrowed or unburrowed.
• Tunneling Claws upgrade removed.
• Organic Carapace upgrade added to Roach Warren:
• • Requires Hive
• • Cost: 150/150, 110 seconds
• • Increases roach regeneration to 10 life per second. Instead of trying to switch Hydras and Roaches or making both tier 1. Would it not be much easier to have lurkers morph from roaches? "trying"? It takes no effort. The switch is just because mechanically, and historically, it seems a lot better for the game. Roaches were designed as more of a specialty unit, not the 'en masse' shit we're seeing. Except its not this easy as you might claim. By doing this you need to change everything else. You cannot simply change a unit and except the rest to be the same. You're right, other changes would be needed. But this isn't necessarily a bad thing, as we could go and fix a number of other problems with Zerg such as overpowered spawn larvae all at once (and why not, since it's Heart of the Swarm?). Here would be the necessary patch notes to integrate lurks, move hydras to Tier 1, and fix spawn larvae: Queen• Spawn larva now costs 50 energy and is instantaneous. Zergling• Radius decreased from 0.375 to 0.265625. • Rate of fire increased from 0.696 to 0.546875. • Move speed increased from 2.9531 to 3.109375 • Metabolic boost research time decreased from 110 seconds to 80 seconds. • Upgraded move speed decreased from 4.6991 to 4.546875. • Adrenal glands research time decreased from 130 to 80. • Upgraded rate of fire increased from 0.497 to 0.40625. Baneling / Baneling Nest / Centrifugal Hooks• Removed from multiplayer. Roach• Cost increased from 75/25, 27 seconds to 100/50, 40 seconds. • Armor increased from 1 to 2. • Damage increased from 16 (+2) to 22 (+2) • Roach now regenerates 5 life per second burrowed or unburrowed. • Tunneling Claws upgrade removed. • Organic Carapace upgrade added to Roach Warren: • • Requires Hive • • Cost: 150/150, 110 seconds • • Increases roach regeneration to 10 life per second. Hydralisk• Radius decreased from 0.625 to 0.34375 • Cost decreased from 100/50, 33 seconds, 2 supply to 75/25, 24 seconds, 1 supply • Light attribute removed • Ground and air damage decreased from 12 (+1) to 5 (+1) (+3 armored). • Rate of fire decreased from 0.83 to 1.015625. • Move speed decreased from 2.25 to 2.109375. • Speed multiplier on creep decreased from 1.5 to 1.3. • Grooved Spines upgrade removed. • Muscular Augments upgrade added to Hydralisk Den: • • Cost: 150/150, 80 seconds • • Increases hydralisk move speed to 3.109375 • Lurker morph added. • • Requires Lurker Aspect • • Cost: 50/100, 33 seconds, 1 supply Hydralisk Den• Now requires Spawning Pool instead of Lair. • Cost decreased from 100/100, 40 seconds to 100/50, 33 seconds • Lurker Aspect upgrade added: • • Requires Lair • • Cost: 200/200, 100 seconds Lurker• Ground Unit - 0.515625 radius • Burrowed Attacker • Cost: 50/100, 33 seconds, 1 supply • 125 life, 1 armor • Biological, Armored • Ground Attack: 20 (+2) • Range: 6 • Rate of Fire: 2.515625 • Sight: 10 • Move Speed: 3.375 • Speed Multiplier on Creep: 1.3 Lol, did you just copy the BW patch stats. For Zerglings, Hydras, and Lurkers, yep (except for the hydra range upgrade, which is provided free just as stalkers and marines are). On August 22 2012 16:31 Qwyn wrote:
You can keep the tiers swapped, just make hydras 1 supply and roaches 2 supply. That way you still keep the interesting air dynamic against zerg while still allowing hydras to be massed. Change stats back to BW level. There isn't any interesting air dynamic against Zerg. It's not as if Zerg is helpless against air during T1, not when queens and spores are the main counters anyway. On August 22 2012 16:31 Qwyn wrote:
Instead of making spawn larva 50 energy and instantaneous (this is a bit rediculous IMO) instead just reduce larva spawn quantity to 2. This keeps the apm requirement and allows for hydra switch. Lurkers can require a 1 min upgrade at the hydra den at lair? The key is that this brings the Spawn Larva in line with the other macro mechanics (while cutting it's power in half), removing the fact that only Zerg is unable to make up for late macro mechanic usage by simply spamming it later (e.g. mule/chrono spam). Reducing Spawn Larva to 2 eggs could also work, just without addressing the second issue. On August 22 2012 16:31 Qwyn wrote:
Lurker ground attack has to be increased to something like 25 (+15 to armor) if it is going to be 3 supply. Although in all honesty it would be way better if it were 2 supply. The units in SC2 cost too much supply. This is also just a side effect of how the economy system works. Would be better in 1 gas format. It isn't. You'll notice that in the costs section of my proposed lurker stats, it costs 1 more supply in addition to the 1 supply of hydras. Yep, I was going to mention that the air dynamic against zerg has been nullified - but I've been speaking in terms of the expansion, is all. I think that having spawn larva be a more punishing mechanic is just fine. However, reducing inject larva amount DOES help with both issues you addressed, in that it makes the punishment for failing to have constant injects less severe. It also allows for different strategies, such as taking more hatcheries, be viable. It would reduce the necessity of getting queens for larva and allow different choices to be made. Changing inject to be 50 energy is just too severe of a penalty. Changing inject to 50 energy is the same penalty as reducing it to 2 eggs; think about it! In fact, it's less severe of a penalty because it renders it less punishing. On August 22 2012 16:31 Qwyn wrote:
Right, proposed lurker stats are all good, but I am speaking somewhat in line with what Blizzard might actually consider - or how the unit would turn out if it were implemented. SC2 units have a higher supply count than their BW counterparts, and the lurker, being a power unit, would likely fall in line with the current SH stats (3 supply) if it were implemented. I don't know why Blizzard insists on making swarm units such high supply, but it isn't very good design. Well, part of the point we're making here is that Blizzard's design philosophy with respect to Zerg needs some improvement. Nah, I have to disagree. Mathematically at first glance it looks the same, but when you consider the way the zerg economy works having to inject every 50 energy is way too harsh of a penalty. By having two larva pop off with every inject you allow a bit more constant rate of growth, droning faster. Basically, if you change it to 50 energy I see no reason to get queens b/c of the wait time inbetween each inject. I would just get two and never inject b/c it wouldn't be worth it anymore - the long interval between injecting reduces effectiveness of those four larva you gain in comparison to just taking another hatch. It all comes down to th fact that two larva at constant 45 second intervals is stronger growth wise than 4 larva every 90 (if inject is instant) seconds, is all.
Oh right, point taken (though it is worth mentioning that the first inject hits at the same time as a 25 energy 2 egg inject that takes time would). There would still be a reasosn to get queens, because it would still more mineral efficient to produce larvae using queens than to get a macro hatch, and because macro hatches become unnecessary (you can stack queens at any hatchery). Not to mention the fact that queens still produce creep tumors, heal, and are decent combat units. My main issue is that as it is now, spawn larva is way overpowered (and nearly every Zerg unit had to be heavily nerfed to compensate for the OP Zerg economy), and queens are strictly superior for cost to hatcheries in nearly all ways.
On August 22 2012 16:31 Qwyn wrote:
Though I gotta say that having it be instant is a pretty big boost to that idea. Butinjecting is APM demanding in its current incarnation - I think that is a GOOD thing. Don't make the game easier, make it harder.
I think we should make the game harder by giving players more SKILLFUL things to do (e.g. micro or decision making), not routine mechanical tasks like injecting larvae.
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On August 23 2012 16:52 sunprince wrote:Show nested quote +On August 23 2012 16:43 Qwyn wrote:On August 23 2012 16:21 sunprince wrote:On August 23 2012 11:01 Qwyn wrote:On August 23 2012 06:55 sunprince wrote:On August 22 2012 16:31 Qwyn wrote:On August 22 2012 05:05 sunprince wrote:On August 21 2012 08:52 Assirra wrote:On August 21 2012 08:38 RogerChillingworth wrote:On August 21 2012 08:30 imallinson wrote:
[quote]
Instead of trying to switch Hydras and Roaches or making both tier 1. Would it not be much easier to have lurkers morph from roaches? "trying"? It takes no effort. The switch is just because mechanically, and historically, it seems a lot better for the game. Roaches were designed as more of a specialty unit, not the 'en masse' shit we're seeing. Except its not this easy as you might claim. By doing this you need to change everything else. You cannot simply change a unit and except the rest to be the same. You're right, other changes would be needed. But this isn't necessarily a bad thing, as we could go and fix a number of other problems with Zerg such as overpowered spawn larvae all at once (and why not, since it's Heart of the Swarm?). Here would be the necessary patch notes to integrate lurks, move hydras to Tier 1, and fix spawn larvae: Queen• Spawn larva now costs 50 energy and is instantaneous. Zergling• Radius decreased from 0.375 to 0.265625. • Rate of fire increased from 0.696 to 0.546875. • Move speed increased from 2.9531 to 3.109375 • Metabolic boost research time decreased from 110 seconds to 80 seconds. • Upgraded move speed decreased from 4.6991 to 4.546875. • Adrenal glands research time decreased from 130 to 80. • Upgraded rate of fire increased from 0.497 to 0.40625. Baneling / Baneling Nest / Centrifugal Hooks• Removed from multiplayer. Roach• Cost increased from 75/25, 27 seconds to 100/50, 40 seconds. • Armor increased from 1 to 2. • Damage increased from 16 (+2) to 22 (+2) • Roach now regenerates 5 life per second burrowed or unburrowed. • Tunneling Claws upgrade removed. • Organic Carapace upgrade added to Roach Warren: • • Requires Hive • • Cost: 150/150, 110 seconds • • Increases roach regeneration to 10 life per second. Hydralisk• Radius decreased from 0.625 to 0.34375 • Cost decreased from 100/50, 33 seconds, 2 supply to 75/25, 24 seconds, 1 supply • Light attribute removed • Ground and air damage decreased from 12 (+1) to 5 (+1) (+3 armored). • Rate of fire decreased from 0.83 to 1.015625. • Move speed decreased from 2.25 to 2.109375. • Speed multiplier on creep decreased from 1.5 to 1.3. • Grooved Spines upgrade removed. • Muscular Augments upgrade added to Hydralisk Den: • • Cost: 150/150, 80 seconds • • Increases hydralisk move speed to 3.109375 • Lurker morph added. • • Requires Lurker Aspect • • Cost: 50/100, 33 seconds, 1 supply Hydralisk Den• Now requires Spawning Pool instead of Lair. • Cost decreased from 100/100, 40 seconds to 100/50, 33 seconds • Lurker Aspect upgrade added: • • Requires Lair • • Cost: 200/200, 100 seconds Lurker• Ground Unit - 0.515625 radius • Burrowed Attacker • Cost: 50/100, 33 seconds, 1 supply • 125 life, 1 armor • Biological, Armored • Ground Attack: 20 (+2) • Range: 6 • Rate of Fire: 2.515625 • Sight: 10 • Move Speed: 3.375 • Speed Multiplier on Creep: 1.3 Lol, did you just copy the BW patch stats. For Zerglings, Hydras, and Lurkers, yep (except for the hydra range upgrade, which is provided free just as stalkers and marines are). On August 22 2012 16:31 Qwyn wrote:
You can keep the tiers swapped, just make hydras 1 supply and roaches 2 supply. That way you still keep the interesting air dynamic against zerg while still allowing hydras to be massed. Change stats back to BW level. There isn't any interesting air dynamic against Zerg. It's not as if Zerg is helpless against air during T1, not when queens and spores are the main counters anyway. On August 22 2012 16:31 Qwyn wrote:
Instead of making spawn larva 50 energy and instantaneous (this is a bit rediculous IMO) instead just reduce larva spawn quantity to 2. This keeps the apm requirement and allows for hydra switch. Lurkers can require a 1 min upgrade at the hydra den at lair? The key is that this brings the Spawn Larva in line with the other macro mechanics (while cutting it's power in half), removing the fact that only Zerg is unable to make up for late macro mechanic usage by simply spamming it later (e.g. mule/chrono spam). Reducing Spawn Larva to 2 eggs could also work, just without addressing the second issue. On August 22 2012 16:31 Qwyn wrote:
Lurker ground attack has to be increased to something like 25 (+15 to armor) if it is going to be 3 supply. Although in all honesty it would be way better if it were 2 supply. The units in SC2 cost too much supply. This is also just a side effect of how the economy system works. Would be better in 1 gas format. It isn't. You'll notice that in the costs section of my proposed lurker stats, it costs 1 more supply in addition to the 1 supply of hydras. Yep, I was going to mention that the air dynamic against zerg has been nullified - but I've been speaking in terms of the expansion, is all. I think that having spawn larva be a more punishing mechanic is just fine. However, reducing inject larva amount DOES help with both issues you addressed, in that it makes the punishment for failing to have constant injects less severe. It also allows for different strategies, such as taking more hatcheries, be viable. It would reduce the necessity of getting queens for larva and allow different choices to be made. Changing inject to be 50 energy is just too severe of a penalty. Changing inject to 50 energy is the same penalty as reducing it to 2 eggs; think about it! In fact, it's less severe of a penalty because it renders it less punishing. On August 22 2012 16:31 Qwyn wrote:
Right, proposed lurker stats are all good, but I am speaking somewhat in line with what Blizzard might actually consider - or how the unit would turn out if it were implemented. SC2 units have a higher supply count than their BW counterparts, and the lurker, being a power unit, would likely fall in line with the current SH stats (3 supply) if it were implemented. I don't know why Blizzard insists on making swarm units such high supply, but it isn't very good design. Well, part of the point we're making here is that Blizzard's design philosophy with respect to Zerg needs some improvement. Nah, I have to disagree. Mathematically at first glance it looks the same, but when you consider the way the zerg economy works having to inject every 50 energy is way too harsh of a penalty. By having two larva pop off with every inject you allow a bit more constant rate of growth, droning faster. Basically, if you change it to 50 energy I see no reason to get queens b/c of the wait time inbetween each inject. I would just get two and never inject b/c it wouldn't be worth it anymore - the long interval between injecting reduces effectiveness of those four larva you gain in comparison to just taking another hatch. It all comes down to th fact that two larva at constant 45 second intervals is stronger growth wise than 4 larva every 90 (if inject is instant) seconds, is all. Oh right, point taken (though it is worth mentioning that the first inject hits at the same time as a 25 energy 2 egg inject that takes time would). There would still be a reasosn to get queens, because it would still more mineral efficient to produce larvae using queens than to get a macro hatch, and because macro hatches become unnecessary (you can stack queens at any hatchery). Not to mention the fact that queens still produce creep tumors, heal, and are decent combat units. My main issue is that as it is now, spawn larva is way overpowered (and nearly every Zerg unit had to be heavily nerfed to compensate for the OP Zerg economy), and queens are strictly superior for cost to hatcheries in nearly all ways. Show nested quote +On August 22 2012 16:31 Qwyn wrote:
Though I gotta say that having it be instant is a pretty big boost to that idea. Butinjecting is APM demanding in its current incarnation - I think that is a GOOD thing. Don't make the game easier, make it harder. I think we should make the game harder by giving players more SKILLFUL things to do (e.g. micro or decision making), not routine mechanical tasks like injecting larvae.
Definition of SKILL, yo. Being able to constantly inject larva IS a skillful thing to do. Micro is a mechanical aspect, just as macro is. When you have a very good understanding of what mechanics are you'll realize that they are all one and the same.
By reducing the quantity of spawn to 2, it means that the penalty for not being able to do so is lessened, but a good player will perform better than a bad player. Now that I think about it, having multiple queens instantly spawn larva at 50 energy is pretty silly, in some ways more imbalanced (lessened by energy requirement). A good player has a natural rhythm to his play. A good player is able to perform all mechanical aspects and win ONLY because he is better mechanically. That is how the game should be.
Micro or decision making is only ONE aspect of the game. If you made everything in SC2 automated and removed the mechanical aspect of it, the game would be VERY boring. Macro is EASY when set standalone. What differentiates the good from the bad is their ability to macro and make good army decisions and micro at the SAME time. Don't look at mechanical requirement as a BAD thing. Especially not in SC2. Especially not. Since MBS, automine are implemented, anything that can increase the mechanical aspect is a good thing.
EDIT: Man that irritates me. Not so much just you, ANYONE who holds that opinion. This game is deep. Multi-faceted. And saying that you want aspects like micro to be more SKILLFUL, in essence saying that micro is the ONLY thing that should take skill, or DOES take skill, is wrong. Because in a game this deep, there are so many things that require skill to do.
Think about it like this.
There are players who have good mechanics. Should they not be allowed to win because they are better at micro macro and multitasking? When you say mechanics, that is what you are talking about. Shouldn't a player win because he is faster, because he stretches another player to their limits, because he is able to micro and macro and split and push and drop and flank and expand and have map control all at the same time? That is what you are talking about when you say the word mechanics.
Likewise, you can win because you have good STRATEGY. And a player should be able to win because they have good strategy. That can make up for being mechanically deficient. But in such a deep and multi-faceted game, different styles of players should be able to win because they excel at different things.
That's all (I'm very passionate about the mechanical side of this game).
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Locusts makes me think of Anub'arak´s ultimate, from Warcraft 3.
It´s a bunch of small locusts that kinda act like interceptors, attacking nearby units.
I wonder, now that the Carrier might possibly be cut from the game, that it might be a good idea to give interceptors to the Swarm Host, so that it burrows and then it launches interceptors(locusts) at nearby units, instead of the standardized; Zerg units, spawning units to fight.
The Lurker was an excellent unit in BW, great concept, to a race which already lacked invisible units, splash damage, siege (in earlier stages of the game) and board control.
However i never felt that the Lurker felt Zergy, it looks like a mutated camel, which doesn´t at all resemble the Hydra.
If the Lurker were to be reintroduced, it would have to be Lair tech, it would have to be morphed from the Roach.
Not only because it makes more sense Tier-wise, but also because it looks more like the Roach than the Hydra and the Roach already has the Burrow theme, which the Hydra doesn´t, also it looks like Hydra will have lategame useage in Heart of the Swarm, with the speed upgrade, which is awesome. The Roach however, does not have lategame useage.
BUT! I do not think it would be a good idea to reintroduce the Lurker, as it wouldn´t add to the Zerg arsenal, as it did in Broodwar. There´s plenty of reason to get detection vs. Zerg; The Burrow-Move Roach, the sneaky Infestor, the Burrowed Land mine Banes and Creep Tumors.
Zerg has plenty of Splash damage: The Ultralisk, the Infestor, and the Baneling.
Banelings add board control and so does Creep. So the only use for the Lurker would be to Siege bases, WHICH is the primal reason for the Swarm Host and it would be way more adapt at doing so. And there will be other ways of using the Swarm Host aswell, it really does fit into the used Zerg style at the moment.
It doens´t help the mobility Zerg, but it does help the immobile Zerg a ton!
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On August 23 2012 18:39 ejozl wrote:
Locusts makes me think of Anub'arak´s ultimate, from Warcraft 3.
It´s a bunch of small locusts that kinda act like interceptors, attacking nearby units.
I wonder, now that the Carrier might possibly be cut from the game, that it might be a good idea to give interceptors to the Swarm Host, so that it burrows and then it launches interceptors(locusts) at nearby units, instead of the standardized; Zerg units, spawning units to fight.
The Lurker was an excellent unit in BW, great concept, to a race which already lacked invisible units, splash damage, siege (in earlier stages of the game) and board control.
However i never felt that the Lurker felt Zergy, it looks like a mutated camel, which doesn´t at all resemble the Hydra.
If the Lurker were to be reintroduced, it would have to be Lair tech, it would have to be morphed from the Roach.
Not only because it makes more sense Tier-wise, but also because it looks more like the Roach than the Hydra and the Roach already has the Burrow theme, which the Hydra doesn´t, also it looks like Hydra will have lategame useage in Heart of the Swarm, with the speed upgrade, which is awesome. The Roach however, does not have lategame useage.
BUT! I do not think it would be a good idea to reintroduce the Lurker, as it wouldn´t add to the Zerg arsenal, as it did in Broodwar. There´s plenty of reason to get detection vs. Zerg; The Burrow-Move Roach, the sneaky Infestor, the Burrowed Land mine Banes and Creep Tumors.
Zerg has plenty of Splash damage: The Ultralisk, the Infestor, and the Baneling.
Banelings add board control and so does Creep. So the only use for the Lurker would be to Siege bases, WHICH is the primal reason for the Swarm Host and it would be way more adapt at doing so. And there will be other ways of using the Swarm Host aswell, it really does fit into the used Zerg style at the moment.
It doens´t help the mobility Zerg, but it does help the immobile Zerg a ton!
I see your logic with the swarm host, but I really think the issue IS the lack of space control.
Here's the idea. Banelings don't provide strong, reliable AOE. They detonate once, and need to continually be replaced (expensive), that's not space control.
Lurkers LOCK DOWN an area. They prevent larger forces from accessing the area without some sort of tech, or sufficient numbers/micro.
It's not so much what the swarm host tries to accomplish, as what the lurker ALLOWS.
If strong, reliable AOE were put in the game, we would see drop heavy styles of zerg. We would see counterattacks. We would see backstabs, ambushes, and all the stuff that makes Zerg awesome. But as it stands, banelings do not sufficently fill the role of space control. The swarm host will be apart of a deathball. In terms of design, it really is nothing more than a land broodlord.
And wait...Broodlords already perform one type of siege role. There's no reason to implement a nearly identical unit at an earlier tier just to accomplish the same thing at an earlier time. If someone really turtles, broodlords should be accessible and used for siege.
And there is a whole other concept of siege. Of attack. That is made possible with strong AOE. Lurkers.
Lurkers open up new styles of play. They add to the game. I don't really thing that swarm hosts add to the game as a siege unit. That's not what zerg needs. Zerg needs a way to be cost effective without using infestor broodlord, to lock down areas of the map and free up forces to perform backstabs, to wear the opponent down - to siege them, Zerg style.
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EPT
