|
Bring back the lurker!! Be sure to redo the model while you're at it, Blizzard!
|
On August 20 2012 12:54 sluggaslamoo wrote:Show nested quote +On August 20 2012 12:46 -NegativeZero- wrote:On July 22 2012 09:54 Assirra wrote:On July 22 2012 09:37 0neder wrote:On July 22 2012 09:26 Assirra wrote:On July 22 2012 09:08 0neder wrote:On July 22 2012 09:03 Assirra wrote:On July 22 2012 08:53 sunprince wrote:On July 22 2012 07:46 Assirra wrote:On July 22 2012 07:43 sunprince wrote:
[quote]
Move hydras to t1.5, then lurks would be t2 (available to research as soon as Lair completes if you already have a Den). so to fit 1 bw thing in you need to add another one, its obvious where this is going. More like, "fix two problems at once". Hydras being t2 are a big cause of their relatively limited use in SC2. Yea because putting hydras at t1 wouldn't give other troubles. This looking way to small, you adjust something and suddenly either everything else needs to change or you create a bunch of other problems. 1 - You can't just assert that hydras at t1 create problems. How would they actually 'break' the game or 'create a bunch of other problems'? Please, try to identify a potential issue, because people have been throwing out the same broad assertion with no specific examples several times each page of this thread for the entire thread. =) 2 - You can't assume that roaches or hydras couldn't be tweaked completely in terms of unit stats/supply/etc. They can. Go play Starbow. You'll see how relatively easy these tweaks could be. See here is the problem. If we put hydras on t1 and indeed tweak them we got suddenly 4 t1 zerg units which give a great increase of new busts but it also takes away some of the mid game. By doing this alone don't you realize how much you change the whole zerg race and every single matchup including zerg? If you think roach baneling busts are bad, how about hydra roach busts, units that don't blow themselves up for once. Easy fix, switch roaches or banelings to tier 2. Or just nerf spawn larvae a bit as well. So to fix a problem you self created by implementing a unit that is not supposed to be there you create something that have to be fixed by another fix. Like i said before you are now switching the whole game around and for what? cause you want that 1 unit in the game. At this rate just make sc3 or better sc2 bw cause we all know that is what it is gonne become. Actually roach/hydra switched around would make a lot of sense, and that is originally how the game was designed in early alpha. Hydras' low health makes more sense for a spammable tier 1 unit, and the roach abilities that had to be removed due to being OP would actually be viable on a 100/50 tier 2 specialized tanking unit (2 armor, 5 hp/second health regen). But seriously, what is the actual point of roaches? 1 supply 75/25 Hydras could do everything roaches can and more. The unit overlap between roaches and hydras is ridiculous. IMO the roach feels more like a protoss unit than a zerg unit.
Originally, the point of roaches were to serve as self-healing tanks (e.g. tough due to somewhat tanky stats supplemented by healing) that required enemies to micro (focus-fire) to deal with. The concept is in the name; cockroaches are annoyingly hard to kill.
Roaches with the following changes would easily work alongside T1 hydras and lurkers without too much overlap:
• Cost increased from 75/25, 27 seconds to 100/50, 40 seconds.
• Armor increased from 1 to 2.
• Damage increased from 16 (+2) to 22 (+2)
• Roach now regenerates 5 life per second burrowed or unburrowed.
• Tunneling Claws upgrade removed.
• Organic Carapace upgrade added to Roach Warren:
• • Requires Hive
• • Cost: 150/150, 110 seconds
• • Increases roach regeneration to 10 life per second.
|
Swarm host is an offensive unit, lurker is a positional unit. Swarm host will be trash.
|
Honestly, until at least the beta...you won't get any extremely unbias'd answers.
Like, I LOVE the lurker.
But the Swarm Host seems really cool too. *shrugs*
|
On August 21 2012 08:10 sunprince wrote:Show nested quote +On August 20 2012 12:54 sluggaslamoo wrote:On August 20 2012 12:46 -NegativeZero- wrote:On July 22 2012 09:54 Assirra wrote:On July 22 2012 09:37 0neder wrote:On July 22 2012 09:26 Assirra wrote:On July 22 2012 09:08 0neder wrote:On July 22 2012 09:03 Assirra wrote:On July 22 2012 08:53 sunprince wrote:On July 22 2012 07:46 Assirra wrote:
[quote]
so to fit 1 bw thing in you need to add another one, its obvious where this is going. More like, "fix two problems at once". Hydras being t2 are a big cause of their relatively limited use in SC2. Yea because putting hydras at t1 wouldn't give other troubles. This looking way to small, you adjust something and suddenly either everything else needs to change or you create a bunch of other problems. 1 - You can't just assert that hydras at t1 create problems. How would they actually 'break' the game or 'create a bunch of other problems'? Please, try to identify a potential issue, because people have been throwing out the same broad assertion with no specific examples several times each page of this thread for the entire thread. =) 2 - You can't assume that roaches or hydras couldn't be tweaked completely in terms of unit stats/supply/etc. They can. Go play Starbow. You'll see how relatively easy these tweaks could be. See here is the problem. If we put hydras on t1 and indeed tweak them we got suddenly 4 t1 zerg units which give a great increase of new busts but it also takes away some of the mid game. By doing this alone don't you realize how much you change the whole zerg race and every single matchup including zerg? If you think roach baneling busts are bad, how about hydra roach busts, units that don't blow themselves up for once. Easy fix, switch roaches or banelings to tier 2. Or just nerf spawn larvae a bit as well. So to fix a problem you self created by implementing a unit that is not supposed to be there you create something that have to be fixed by another fix. Like i said before you are now switching the whole game around and for what? cause you want that 1 unit in the game. At this rate just make sc3 or better sc2 bw cause we all know that is what it is gonne become. Actually roach/hydra switched around would make a lot of sense, and that is originally how the game was designed in early alpha. Hydras' low health makes more sense for a spammable tier 1 unit, and the roach abilities that had to be removed due to being OP would actually be viable on a 100/50 tier 2 specialized tanking unit (2 armor, 5 hp/second health regen). But seriously, what is the actual point of roaches? 1 supply 75/25 Hydras could do everything roaches can and more. The unit overlap between roaches and hydras is ridiculous. IMO the roach feels more like a protoss unit than a zerg unit. Originally, the point of roaches were to serve as self-healing tanks (e.g. tough due to somewhat tanky stats supplemented by healing) that required enemies to micro (focus-fire) to deal with. The concept is in the name; cockroaches are annoyingly hard to kill. Roaches with the following changes would easily work alongside T1 hydras and lurkers without too much overlap: • Cost increased from 75/25, 27 seconds to 100/50, 40 seconds. • Armor increased from 1 to 2. • Damage increased from 16 (+2) to 22 (+2) • Roach now regenerates 5 life per second burrowed or unburrowed. • Tunneling Claws upgrade removed. • Organic Carapace upgrade added to Roach Warren: • • Requires Hive • • Cost: 150/150, 110 seconds • • Increases roach regeneration to 10 life per second.
Brilliant!
I had a similar idea, except the upgrade I was thinking was a +2 armor upgrade at hive. Either way, swapping the roles and stats of the hydra and roach would be great for the game. And it'd be the return of the strong hellion opener.
|
United Kingdom3482 Posts
On August 21 2012 08:10 sunprince wrote:Show nested quote +On August 20 2012 12:54 sluggaslamoo wrote:On August 20 2012 12:46 -NegativeZero- wrote:On July 22 2012 09:54 Assirra wrote:On July 22 2012 09:37 0neder wrote:On July 22 2012 09:26 Assirra wrote:On July 22 2012 09:08 0neder wrote:On July 22 2012 09:03 Assirra wrote:On July 22 2012 08:53 sunprince wrote:On July 22 2012 07:46 Assirra wrote:
[quote]
so to fit 1 bw thing in you need to add another one, its obvious where this is going. More like, "fix two problems at once". Hydras being t2 are a big cause of their relatively limited use in SC2. Yea because putting hydras at t1 wouldn't give other troubles. This looking way to small, you adjust something and suddenly either everything else needs to change or you create a bunch of other problems. 1 - You can't just assert that hydras at t1 create problems. How would they actually 'break' the game or 'create a bunch of other problems'? Please, try to identify a potential issue, because people have been throwing out the same broad assertion with no specific examples several times each page of this thread for the entire thread. =) 2 - You can't assume that roaches or hydras couldn't be tweaked completely in terms of unit stats/supply/etc. They can. Go play Starbow. You'll see how relatively easy these tweaks could be. See here is the problem. If we put hydras on t1 and indeed tweak them we got suddenly 4 t1 zerg units which give a great increase of new busts but it also takes away some of the mid game. By doing this alone don't you realize how much you change the whole zerg race and every single matchup including zerg? If you think roach baneling busts are bad, how about hydra roach busts, units that don't blow themselves up for once. Easy fix, switch roaches or banelings to tier 2. Or just nerf spawn larvae a bit as well. So to fix a problem you self created by implementing a unit that is not supposed to be there you create something that have to be fixed by another fix. Like i said before you are now switching the whole game around and for what? cause you want that 1 unit in the game. At this rate just make sc3 or better sc2 bw cause we all know that is what it is gonne become. Actually roach/hydra switched around would make a lot of sense, and that is originally how the game was designed in early alpha. Hydras' low health makes more sense for a spammable tier 1 unit, and the roach abilities that had to be removed due to being OP would actually be viable on a 100/50 tier 2 specialized tanking unit (2 armor, 5 hp/second health regen). But seriously, what is the actual point of roaches? 1 supply 75/25 Hydras could do everything roaches can and more. The unit overlap between roaches and hydras is ridiculous. IMO the roach feels more like a protoss unit than a zerg unit. Originally, the point of roaches were to serve as self-healing tanks (e.g. tough due to somewhat tanky stats supplemented by healing) that required enemies to micro (focus-fire) to deal with. The concept is in the name; cockroaches are annoyingly hard to kill. Roaches with the following changes would easily work alongside T1 hydras and lurkers without too much overlap: • Cost increased from 75/25, 27 seconds to 100/50, 40 seconds. • Armor increased from 1 to 2. • Damage increased from 16 (+2) to 22 (+2) • Roach now regenerates 5 life per second burrowed or unburrowed. • Tunneling Claws upgrade removed. • Organic Carapace upgrade added to Roach Warren: • • Requires Hive • • Cost: 150/150, 110 seconds • • Increases roach regeneration to 10 life per second.
Instead of trying to switch Hydras and Roaches or making both tier 1. Would it not be much easier to have lurkers morph from roaches?
|
Lurker.. because it reminds me of my iCCup days.
|
Nice to see this tread up again.
I wish. I wish. That's all I can do.
Wish.
SH wouldn't be half bad, but the main issues with it are:
1. Spawn rate.
2. It costs 3 supply.
This leads into one of several issues I have with SC2, which is that units cost too much supply. 6 supply ultra? 2 supply roach and 2 supply hydra? 3 supply swarm host? 3 supply tank? 6 supply thor/carrier? Thor is understandable, but still.
I mean, wtf? 6 supply ultra is the one I have the most isses with.
Blizzard, for a swarm race, the zerg are not very swarmy.
Getting a 4th base fully saturated means that you only have 112 army supply. That's 56 roaches/hydras/infestors(lol). That's only 18 ultras. I mean, this connects back to several bigger issues, which are:
1. 2 gas format inferior to 1 gas format.
---> 1 gas would allow for 12 more supply free on 4 base saturation.
2. Lower worker income rate/lack of curve.
---> Lack of curve means that you need 16 drones per each base rediculousness.
3. Spawn larva.
---> Requires weaker untis overall, to compensate for high drone rate.
4. Roach being tier 1.5.
---> I think this speaks for itself.
|
lurkers create interesting positional and micro intense situations. swarm hosts are a gimped broodlord that burrows instead of flying.
easy choice
|
On August 21 2012 08:30 imallinson wrote:Show nested quote +On August 21 2012 08:10 sunprince wrote:On August 20 2012 12:54 sluggaslamoo wrote:On August 20 2012 12:46 -NegativeZero- wrote:On July 22 2012 09:54 Assirra wrote:On July 22 2012 09:37 0neder wrote:On July 22 2012 09:26 Assirra wrote:On July 22 2012 09:08 0neder wrote:On July 22 2012 09:03 Assirra wrote:On July 22 2012 08:53 sunprince wrote:
[quote]
More like, "fix two problems at once". Hydras being t2 are a big cause of their relatively limited use in SC2. Yea because putting hydras at t1 wouldn't give other troubles. This looking way to small, you adjust something and suddenly either everything else needs to change or you create a bunch of other problems. 1 - You can't just assert that hydras at t1 create problems. How would they actually 'break' the game or 'create a bunch of other problems'? Please, try to identify a potential issue, because people have been throwing out the same broad assertion with no specific examples several times each page of this thread for the entire thread. =) 2 - You can't assume that roaches or hydras couldn't be tweaked completely in terms of unit stats/supply/etc. They can. Go play Starbow. You'll see how relatively easy these tweaks could be. See here is the problem. If we put hydras on t1 and indeed tweak them we got suddenly 4 t1 zerg units which give a great increase of new busts but it also takes away some of the mid game. By doing this alone don't you realize how much you change the whole zerg race and every single matchup including zerg? If you think roach baneling busts are bad, how about hydra roach busts, units that don't blow themselves up for once. Easy fix, switch roaches or banelings to tier 2. Or just nerf spawn larvae a bit as well. So to fix a problem you self created by implementing a unit that is not supposed to be there you create something that have to be fixed by another fix. Like i said before you are now switching the whole game around and for what? cause you want that 1 unit in the game. At this rate just make sc3 or better sc2 bw cause we all know that is what it is gonne become. Actually roach/hydra switched around would make a lot of sense, and that is originally how the game was designed in early alpha. Hydras' low health makes more sense for a spammable tier 1 unit, and the roach abilities that had to be removed due to being OP would actually be viable on a 100/50 tier 2 specialized tanking unit (2 armor, 5 hp/second health regen). But seriously, what is the actual point of roaches? 1 supply 75/25 Hydras could do everything roaches can and more. The unit overlap between roaches and hydras is ridiculous. IMO the roach feels more like a protoss unit than a zerg unit. Originally, the point of roaches were to serve as self-healing tanks (e.g. tough due to somewhat tanky stats supplemented by healing) that required enemies to micro (focus-fire) to deal with. The concept is in the name; cockroaches are annoyingly hard to kill. Roaches with the following changes would easily work alongside T1 hydras and lurkers without too much overlap: • Cost increased from 75/25, 27 seconds to 100/50, 40 seconds. • Armor increased from 1 to 2. • Damage increased from 16 (+2) to 22 (+2) • Roach now regenerates 5 life per second burrowed or unburrowed. • Tunneling Claws upgrade removed. • Organic Carapace upgrade added to Roach Warren: • • Requires Hive • • Cost: 150/150, 110 seconds • • Increases roach regeneration to 10 life per second. Instead of trying to switch Hydras and Roaches or making both tier 1. Would it not be much easier to have lurkers morph from roaches?
"trying"? It takes no effort. The switch is just because mechanically, and historically, it seems a lot better for the game. Roaches were designed as more of a specialty unit, not the 'en masse' shit we're seeing.
|
You actually went ahead and made a poll about which unit is more fun to play with, despite the unit not being out yet.
Wow man. You're a special guy, really.
|
On August 21 2012 08:38 RogerChillingworth wrote:Show nested quote +On August 21 2012 08:30 imallinson wrote:On August 21 2012 08:10 sunprince wrote:On August 20 2012 12:54 sluggaslamoo wrote:On August 20 2012 12:46 -NegativeZero- wrote:On July 22 2012 09:54 Assirra wrote:On July 22 2012 09:37 0neder wrote:On July 22 2012 09:26 Assirra wrote:On July 22 2012 09:08 0neder wrote:On July 22 2012 09:03 Assirra wrote:
[quote]
Yea because putting hydras at t1 wouldn't give other troubles. This looking way to small, you adjust something and suddenly either everything else needs to change or you create a bunch of other problems. 1 - You can't just assert that hydras at t1 create problems. How would they actually 'break' the game or 'create a bunch of other problems'? Please, try to identify a potential issue, because people have been throwing out the same broad assertion with no specific examples several times each page of this thread for the entire thread. =) 2 - You can't assume that roaches or hydras couldn't be tweaked completely in terms of unit stats/supply/etc. They can. Go play Starbow. You'll see how relatively easy these tweaks could be. See here is the problem. If we put hydras on t1 and indeed tweak them we got suddenly 4 t1 zerg units which give a great increase of new busts but it also takes away some of the mid game. By doing this alone don't you realize how much you change the whole zerg race and every single matchup including zerg? If you think roach baneling busts are bad, how about hydra roach busts, units that don't blow themselves up for once. Easy fix, switch roaches or banelings to tier 2. Or just nerf spawn larvae a bit as well. So to fix a problem you self created by implementing a unit that is not supposed to be there you create something that have to be fixed by another fix. Like i said before you are now switching the whole game around and for what? cause you want that 1 unit in the game. At this rate just make sc3 or better sc2 bw cause we all know that is what it is gonne become. Actually roach/hydra switched around would make a lot of sense, and that is originally how the game was designed in early alpha. Hydras' low health makes more sense for a spammable tier 1 unit, and the roach abilities that had to be removed due to being OP would actually be viable on a 100/50 tier 2 specialized tanking unit (2 armor, 5 hp/second health regen). But seriously, what is the actual point of roaches? 1 supply 75/25 Hydras could do everything roaches can and more. The unit overlap between roaches and hydras is ridiculous. IMO the roach feels more like a protoss unit than a zerg unit. Originally, the point of roaches were to serve as self-healing tanks (e.g. tough due to somewhat tanky stats supplemented by healing) that required enemies to micro (focus-fire) to deal with. The concept is in the name; cockroaches are annoyingly hard to kill. Roaches with the following changes would easily work alongside T1 hydras and lurkers without too much overlap: • Cost increased from 75/25, 27 seconds to 100/50, 40 seconds. • Armor increased from 1 to 2. • Damage increased from 16 (+2) to 22 (+2) • Roach now regenerates 5 life per second burrowed or unburrowed. • Tunneling Claws upgrade removed. • Organic Carapace upgrade added to Roach Warren: • • Requires Hive • • Cost: 150/150, 110 seconds • • Increases roach regeneration to 10 life per second. Instead of trying to switch Hydras and Roaches or making both tier 1. Would it not be much easier to have lurkers morph from roaches? "trying"? It takes no effort. The switch is just because mechanically, and historically, it seems a lot better for the game. Roaches were designed as more of a specialty unit, not the 'en masse' shit we're seeing.
what you're seeing is what they were designed as, though
only an idiot can look at tunneling claws and think it's gonna make the roach some amazing sneaky harass unit (hint: the opponent can have detectors), while its other stats say "stalker for half the gas, but needs an upgrade to move as fast"... it's very clearly a unit you're supposed to mass, to turn a macro advantage into damage
|
On August 21 2012 08:38 RogerChillingworth wrote:Show nested quote +On August 21 2012 08:30 imallinson wrote:On August 21 2012 08:10 sunprince wrote:On August 20 2012 12:54 sluggaslamoo wrote:On August 20 2012 12:46 -NegativeZero- wrote:On July 22 2012 09:54 Assirra wrote:On July 22 2012 09:37 0neder wrote:On July 22 2012 09:26 Assirra wrote:On July 22 2012 09:08 0neder wrote:On July 22 2012 09:03 Assirra wrote:
[quote]
Yea because putting hydras at t1 wouldn't give other troubles. This looking way to small, you adjust something and suddenly either everything else needs to change or you create a bunch of other problems. 1 - You can't just assert that hydras at t1 create problems. How would they actually 'break' the game or 'create a bunch of other problems'? Please, try to identify a potential issue, because people have been throwing out the same broad assertion with no specific examples several times each page of this thread for the entire thread. =) 2 - You can't assume that roaches or hydras couldn't be tweaked completely in terms of unit stats/supply/etc. They can. Go play Starbow. You'll see how relatively easy these tweaks could be. See here is the problem. If we put hydras on t1 and indeed tweak them we got suddenly 4 t1 zerg units which give a great increase of new busts but it also takes away some of the mid game. By doing this alone don't you realize how much you change the whole zerg race and every single matchup including zerg? If you think roach baneling busts are bad, how about hydra roach busts, units that don't blow themselves up for once. Easy fix, switch roaches or banelings to tier 2. Or just nerf spawn larvae a bit as well. So to fix a problem you self created by implementing a unit that is not supposed to be there you create something that have to be fixed by another fix. Like i said before you are now switching the whole game around and for what? cause you want that 1 unit in the game. At this rate just make sc3 or better sc2 bw cause we all know that is what it is gonne become. Actually roach/hydra switched around would make a lot of sense, and that is originally how the game was designed in early alpha. Hydras' low health makes more sense for a spammable tier 1 unit, and the roach abilities that had to be removed due to being OP would actually be viable on a 100/50 tier 2 specialized tanking unit (2 armor, 5 hp/second health regen). But seriously, what is the actual point of roaches? 1 supply 75/25 Hydras could do everything roaches can and more. The unit overlap between roaches and hydras is ridiculous. IMO the roach feels more like a protoss unit than a zerg unit. Originally, the point of roaches were to serve as self-healing tanks (e.g. tough due to somewhat tanky stats supplemented by healing) that required enemies to micro (focus-fire) to deal with. The concept is in the name; cockroaches are annoyingly hard to kill. Roaches with the following changes would easily work alongside T1 hydras and lurkers without too much overlap: • Cost increased from 75/25, 27 seconds to 100/50, 40 seconds. • Armor increased from 1 to 2. • Damage increased from 16 (+2) to 22 (+2) • Roach now regenerates 5 life per second burrowed or unburrowed. • Tunneling Claws upgrade removed. • Organic Carapace upgrade added to Roach Warren: • • Requires Hive • • Cost: 150/150, 110 seconds • • Increases roach regeneration to 10 life per second. Instead of trying to switch Hydras and Roaches or making both tier 1. Would it not be much easier to have lurkers morph from roaches? "trying"? It takes no effort. The switch is just because mechanically, and historically, it seems a lot better for the game. Roaches were designed as more of a specialty unit, not the 'en masse' shit we're seeing.
Except its not this easy as you might claim.
By doing this you need to change everything else. You cannot simply change a unit and except the rest to be the same.
|
On July 26 2012 07:02 Archerofaiur wrote:One thing ive picked up from the HOTS Custom thread. People really think the Swarm Host is fun to play. http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=280751¤tpage=57Show nested quote +On July 25 2012 15:47 cresse wrote:
I played this today. I appreciate OP for going through the effort in making it! Seeing queens darker and... flatter looking was a little silly but I guess they looked that way in the HOTS preview videos too. Swarm Hosts are fun. Show nested quote +On July 25 2012 05:31 Big J wrote:swarm hosts are completly imba  And they are sooooo much fun!!! I mean, you just build a bunch of them, fortify that position with spines and zerglings and thenn add hosts and infestors until the opponent is dead Na, just kidding, I know that's not a final version, but damn... those things are sooo strong. I mean, they aren't even bad vs Battlecruisers in the lategame etc I'm grinning, because I'm playing zerg, and it feels sooo goood, to just play a timing and see how the opponent dies to it Show nested quote +On July 23 2012 23:42 moskonia wrote:Wow just played a couple of games and it is really fun! the swarm host seem really cool, I only played it vs Terran so I will comment on it: the swarm host seems really good by that you can damage the opponent little every time but the damage in time becomes huge, although you might need to trick your opponent since if they see where the locusts spawn they can just scan and kill your stuff. What I found that seems cool is that if he is close to stop making locusts and then he will go to another area (Terran are cheap with their scans  ). Tricking the opponent is one of the funnest things to do, making hem scan wrong areas by spawning locusts and then moving to another area Show nested quote +On July 23 2012 20:51 WhiteKnight wrote:Played a game with a mate earlier and lost to tempests  . Tempests and Swarm hosts are fun against the AI too because they don't really know how to handle em.
I think the main difference between the two threads opinion is that one is more concerned about how it feels like to play the unit and less about comparing against the two units.
another is comparing directly against another unit, and determining which is better.
personally I prefer swarm host because it opens up new timings.
It seems to me that what sc2 needs the least is another splash damage dealer.
Lurker would be interesting to watch as a spectator though
|
On August 21 2012 08:42 yeastiality wrote:Show nested quote +On August 21 2012 08:38 RogerChillingworth wrote:On August 21 2012 08:30 imallinson wrote:On August 21 2012 08:10 sunprince wrote:On August 20 2012 12:54 sluggaslamoo wrote:On August 20 2012 12:46 -NegativeZero- wrote:On July 22 2012 09:54 Assirra wrote:On July 22 2012 09:37 0neder wrote:On July 22 2012 09:26 Assirra wrote:On July 22 2012 09:08 0neder wrote:
[quote]
1 - You can't just assert that hydras at t1 create problems. How would they actually 'break' the game or 'create a bunch of other problems'? Please, try to identify a potential issue, because people have been throwing out the same broad assertion with no specific examples several times each page of this thread for the entire thread. =)
2 - You can't assume that roaches or hydras couldn't be tweaked completely in terms of unit stats/supply/etc. They can.
Go play Starbow. You'll see how relatively easy these tweaks could be. See here is the problem. If we put hydras on t1 and indeed tweak them we got suddenly 4 t1 zerg units which give a great increase of new busts but it also takes away some of the mid game. By doing this alone don't you realize how much you change the whole zerg race and every single matchup including zerg? If you think roach baneling busts are bad, how about hydra roach busts, units that don't blow themselves up for once. Easy fix, switch roaches or banelings to tier 2. Or just nerf spawn larvae a bit as well. So to fix a problem you self created by implementing a unit that is not supposed to be there you create something that have to be fixed by another fix. Like i said before you are now switching the whole game around and for what? cause you want that 1 unit in the game. At this rate just make sc3 or better sc2 bw cause we all know that is what it is gonne become. Actually roach/hydra switched around would make a lot of sense, and that is originally how the game was designed in early alpha. Hydras' low health makes more sense for a spammable tier 1 unit, and the roach abilities that had to be removed due to being OP would actually be viable on a 100/50 tier 2 specialized tanking unit (2 armor, 5 hp/second health regen). But seriously, what is the actual point of roaches? 1 supply 75/25 Hydras could do everything roaches can and more. The unit overlap between roaches and hydras is ridiculous. IMO the roach feels more like a protoss unit than a zerg unit. Originally, the point of roaches were to serve as self-healing tanks (e.g. tough due to somewhat tanky stats supplemented by healing) that required enemies to micro (focus-fire) to deal with. The concept is in the name; cockroaches are annoyingly hard to kill. Roaches with the following changes would easily work alongside T1 hydras and lurkers without too much overlap: • Cost increased from 75/25, 27 seconds to 100/50, 40 seconds. • Armor increased from 1 to 2. • Damage increased from 16 (+2) to 22 (+2) • Roach now regenerates 5 life per second burrowed or unburrowed. • Tunneling Claws upgrade removed. • Organic Carapace upgrade added to Roach Warren: • • Requires Hive • • Cost: 150/150, 110 seconds • • Increases roach regeneration to 10 life per second. Instead of trying to switch Hydras and Roaches or making both tier 1. Would it not be much easier to have lurkers morph from roaches? "trying"? It takes no effort. The switch is just because mechanically, and historically, it seems a lot better for the game. Roaches were designed as more of a specialty unit, not the 'en masse' shit we're seeing. what you're seeing is what they were designed as, though only an idiot can look at tunneling claws and think it's gonna make the roach some amazing sneaky harass unit (hint: the opponent can have detectors), while its other stats say "stalker for half the gas, but needs an upgrade to move as fast"... it's very clearly a unit you're supposed to mass, to turn a macro advantage into damage
only because zerg has nothing else to make in the midgame that isn't melee ranged.
|
lurker without a doubt, one of the best units ever created in RTS history, together with the reaver, and they removed it just for the sake of change...shame...
|
On August 21 2012 08:30 imallinson wrote:Show nested quote +On August 21 2012 08:10 sunprince wrote:On August 20 2012 12:54 sluggaslamoo wrote:On August 20 2012 12:46 -NegativeZero- wrote:On July 22 2012 09:54 Assirra wrote:On July 22 2012 09:37 0neder wrote:On July 22 2012 09:26 Assirra wrote:On July 22 2012 09:08 0neder wrote:On July 22 2012 09:03 Assirra wrote:On July 22 2012 08:53 sunprince wrote:
[quote]
More like, "fix two problems at once". Hydras being t2 are a big cause of their relatively limited use in SC2. Yea because putting hydras at t1 wouldn't give other troubles. This looking way to small, you adjust something and suddenly either everything else needs to change or you create a bunch of other problems. 1 - You can't just assert that hydras at t1 create problems. How would they actually 'break' the game or 'create a bunch of other problems'? Please, try to identify a potential issue, because people have been throwing out the same broad assertion with no specific examples several times each page of this thread for the entire thread. =) 2 - You can't assume that roaches or hydras couldn't be tweaked completely in terms of unit stats/supply/etc. They can. Go play Starbow. You'll see how relatively easy these tweaks could be. See here is the problem. If we put hydras on t1 and indeed tweak them we got suddenly 4 t1 zerg units which give a great increase of new busts but it also takes away some of the mid game. By doing this alone don't you realize how much you change the whole zerg race and every single matchup including zerg? If you think roach baneling busts are bad, how about hydra roach busts, units that don't blow themselves up for once. Easy fix, switch roaches or banelings to tier 2. Or just nerf spawn larvae a bit as well. So to fix a problem you self created by implementing a unit that is not supposed to be there you create something that have to be fixed by another fix. Like i said before you are now switching the whole game around and for what? cause you want that 1 unit in the game. At this rate just make sc3 or better sc2 bw cause we all know that is what it is gonne become. Actually roach/hydra switched around would make a lot of sense, and that is originally how the game was designed in early alpha. Hydras' low health makes more sense for a spammable tier 1 unit, and the roach abilities that had to be removed due to being OP would actually be viable on a 100/50 tier 2 specialized tanking unit (2 armor, 5 hp/second health regen). But seriously, what is the actual point of roaches? 1 supply 75/25 Hydras could do everything roaches can and more. The unit overlap between roaches and hydras is ridiculous. IMO the roach feels more like a protoss unit than a zerg unit. Originally, the point of roaches were to serve as self-healing tanks (e.g. tough due to somewhat tanky stats supplemented by healing) that required enemies to micro (focus-fire) to deal with. The concept is in the name; cockroaches are annoyingly hard to kill. Roaches with the following changes would easily work alongside T1 hydras and lurkers without too much overlap: • Cost increased from 75/25, 27 seconds to 100/50, 40 seconds. • Armor increased from 1 to 2. • Damage increased from 16 (+2) to 22 (+2) • Roach now regenerates 5 life per second burrowed or unburrowed. • Tunneling Claws upgrade removed. • Organic Carapace upgrade added to Roach Warren: • • Requires Hive • • Cost: 150/150, 110 seconds • • Increases roach regeneration to 10 life per second. Instead of trying to switch Hydras and Roaches or making both tier 1. Would it not be much easier to have lurkers morph from roaches?
I think this would be better for where SCII is at. Hydra at T1 would probably fuck stargate builds so hard and change zvz and zvp a ton, which maybe isn't a bad thing, but if hydras stayed light then we might end up with something resembling BW zvz. yuck! ^^
|
On August 21 2012 08:30 imallinson wrote:Show nested quote +On August 21 2012 08:10 sunprince wrote:On August 20 2012 12:54 sluggaslamoo wrote:On August 20 2012 12:46 -NegativeZero- wrote:On July 22 2012 09:54 Assirra wrote:On July 22 2012 09:37 0neder wrote:On July 22 2012 09:26 Assirra wrote:On July 22 2012 09:08 0neder wrote:On July 22 2012 09:03 Assirra wrote:On July 22 2012 08:53 sunprince wrote:
[quote]
More like, "fix two problems at once". Hydras being t2 are a big cause of their relatively limited use in SC2. Yea because putting hydras at t1 wouldn't give other troubles. This looking way to small, you adjust something and suddenly either everything else needs to change or you create a bunch of other problems. 1 - You can't just assert that hydras at t1 create problems. How would they actually 'break' the game or 'create a bunch of other problems'? Please, try to identify a potential issue, because people have been throwing out the same broad assertion with no specific examples several times each page of this thread for the entire thread. =) 2 - You can't assume that roaches or hydras couldn't be tweaked completely in terms of unit stats/supply/etc. They can. Go play Starbow. You'll see how relatively easy these tweaks could be. See here is the problem. If we put hydras on t1 and indeed tweak them we got suddenly 4 t1 zerg units which give a great increase of new busts but it also takes away some of the mid game. By doing this alone don't you realize how much you change the whole zerg race and every single matchup including zerg? If you think roach baneling busts are bad, how about hydra roach busts, units that don't blow themselves up for once. Easy fix, switch roaches or banelings to tier 2. Or just nerf spawn larvae a bit as well. So to fix a problem you self created by implementing a unit that is not supposed to be there you create something that have to be fixed by another fix. Like i said before you are now switching the whole game around and for what? cause you want that 1 unit in the game. At this rate just make sc3 or better sc2 bw cause we all know that is what it is gonne become. Actually roach/hydra switched around would make a lot of sense, and that is originally how the game was designed in early alpha. Hydras' low health makes more sense for a spammable tier 1 unit, and the roach abilities that had to be removed due to being OP would actually be viable on a 100/50 tier 2 specialized tanking unit (2 armor, 5 hp/second health regen). But seriously, what is the actual point of roaches? 1 supply 75/25 Hydras could do everything roaches can and more. The unit overlap between roaches and hydras is ridiculous. IMO the roach feels more like a protoss unit than a zerg unit. Originally, the point of roaches were to serve as self-healing tanks (e.g. tough due to somewhat tanky stats supplemented by healing) that required enemies to micro (focus-fire) to deal with. The concept is in the name; cockroaches are annoyingly hard to kill. Roaches with the following changes would easily work alongside T1 hydras and lurkers without too much overlap: • Cost increased from 75/25, 27 seconds to 100/50, 40 seconds. • Armor increased from 1 to 2. • Damage increased from 16 (+2) to 22 (+2) • Roach now regenerates 5 life per second burrowed or unburrowed. • Tunneling Claws upgrade removed. • Organic Carapace upgrade added to Roach Warren: • • Requires Hive • • Cost: 150/150, 110 seconds • • Increases roach regeneration to 10 life per second. Instead of trying to switch Hydras and Roaches or making both tier 1. Would it not be much easier to have lurkers morph from roaches?
Easier, yes, but making Hydras and Roaches both Tier 1 has other advantages, such as making hydras viable units again.
On August 21 2012 08:42 yeastiality wrote:Show nested quote +On August 21 2012 08:38 RogerChillingworth wrote:On August 21 2012 08:30 imallinson wrote:On August 21 2012 08:10 sunprince wrote:On August 20 2012 12:54 sluggaslamoo wrote:On August 20 2012 12:46 -NegativeZero- wrote:On July 22 2012 09:54 Assirra wrote:On July 22 2012 09:37 0neder wrote:On July 22 2012 09:26 Assirra wrote:On July 22 2012 09:08 0neder wrote:
[quote]
1 - You can't just assert that hydras at t1 create problems. How would they actually 'break' the game or 'create a bunch of other problems'? Please, try to identify a potential issue, because people have been throwing out the same broad assertion with no specific examples several times each page of this thread for the entire thread. =)
2 - You can't assume that roaches or hydras couldn't be tweaked completely in terms of unit stats/supply/etc. They can.
Go play Starbow. You'll see how relatively easy these tweaks could be. See here is the problem. If we put hydras on t1 and indeed tweak them we got suddenly 4 t1 zerg units which give a great increase of new busts but it also takes away some of the mid game. By doing this alone don't you realize how much you change the whole zerg race and every single matchup including zerg? If you think roach baneling busts are bad, how about hydra roach busts, units that don't blow themselves up for once. Easy fix, switch roaches or banelings to tier 2. Or just nerf spawn larvae a bit as well. So to fix a problem you self created by implementing a unit that is not supposed to be there you create something that have to be fixed by another fix. Like i said before you are now switching the whole game around and for what? cause you want that 1 unit in the game. At this rate just make sc3 or better sc2 bw cause we all know that is what it is gonne become. Actually roach/hydra switched around would make a lot of sense, and that is originally how the game was designed in early alpha. Hydras' low health makes more sense for a spammable tier 1 unit, and the roach abilities that had to be removed due to being OP would actually be viable on a 100/50 tier 2 specialized tanking unit (2 armor, 5 hp/second health regen). But seriously, what is the actual point of roaches? 1 supply 75/25 Hydras could do everything roaches can and more. The unit overlap between roaches and hydras is ridiculous. IMO the roach feels more like a protoss unit than a zerg unit. Originally, the point of roaches were to serve as self-healing tanks (e.g. tough due to somewhat tanky stats supplemented by healing) that required enemies to micro (focus-fire) to deal with. The concept is in the name; cockroaches are annoyingly hard to kill. Roaches with the following changes would easily work alongside T1 hydras and lurkers without too much overlap: • Cost increased from 75/25, 27 seconds to 100/50, 40 seconds. • Armor increased from 1 to 2. • Damage increased from 16 (+2) to 22 (+2) • Roach now regenerates 5 life per second burrowed or unburrowed. • Tunneling Claws upgrade removed. • Organic Carapace upgrade added to Roach Warren: • • Requires Hive • • Cost: 150/150, 110 seconds • • Increases roach regeneration to 10 life per second. Instead of trying to switch Hydras and Roaches or making both tier 1. Would it not be much easier to have lurkers morph from roaches? "trying"? It takes no effort. The switch is just because mechanically, and historically, it seems a lot better for the game. Roaches were designed as more of a specialty unit, not the 'en masse' shit we're seeing. what you're seeing is what they were designed as, though only an idiot can look at tunneling claws and think it's gonna make the roach some amazing sneaky harass unit (hint: the opponent can have detectors), while its other stats say "stalker for half the gas, but needs an upgrade to move as fast"... it's very clearly a unit you're supposed to mass, to turn a macro advantage into damage
What we have now is not what Roaches were originally designed as. The Roach got shifted into a stupid tanky massing unit halfway through alpha because Hydras were bumped to Tier 2 (which in turn happened because they refused to nerf Spawn Larvae and instead nerfed everything else).
|
On August 21 2012 08:52 Assirra wrote:Show nested quote +On August 21 2012 08:38 RogerChillingworth wrote:On August 21 2012 08:30 imallinson wrote:On August 21 2012 08:10 sunprince wrote:On August 20 2012 12:54 sluggaslamoo wrote:On August 20 2012 12:46 -NegativeZero- wrote:On July 22 2012 09:54 Assirra wrote:On July 22 2012 09:37 0neder wrote:On July 22 2012 09:26 Assirra wrote:On July 22 2012 09:08 0neder wrote:
[quote]
1 - You can't just assert that hydras at t1 create problems. How would they actually 'break' the game or 'create a bunch of other problems'? Please, try to identify a potential issue, because people have been throwing out the same broad assertion with no specific examples several times each page of this thread for the entire thread. =)
2 - You can't assume that roaches or hydras couldn't be tweaked completely in terms of unit stats/supply/etc. They can.
Go play Starbow. You'll see how relatively easy these tweaks could be. See here is the problem. If we put hydras on t1 and indeed tweak them we got suddenly 4 t1 zerg units which give a great increase of new busts but it also takes away some of the mid game. By doing this alone don't you realize how much you change the whole zerg race and every single matchup including zerg? If you think roach baneling busts are bad, how about hydra roach busts, units that don't blow themselves up for once. Easy fix, switch roaches or banelings to tier 2. Or just nerf spawn larvae a bit as well. So to fix a problem you self created by implementing a unit that is not supposed to be there you create something that have to be fixed by another fix. Like i said before you are now switching the whole game around and for what? cause you want that 1 unit in the game. At this rate just make sc3 or better sc2 bw cause we all know that is what it is gonne become. Actually roach/hydra switched around would make a lot of sense, and that is originally how the game was designed in early alpha. Hydras' low health makes more sense for a spammable tier 1 unit, and the roach abilities that had to be removed due to being OP would actually be viable on a 100/50 tier 2 specialized tanking unit (2 armor, 5 hp/second health regen). But seriously, what is the actual point of roaches? 1 supply 75/25 Hydras could do everything roaches can and more. The unit overlap between roaches and hydras is ridiculous. IMO the roach feels more like a protoss unit than a zerg unit. Originally, the point of roaches were to serve as self-healing tanks (e.g. tough due to somewhat tanky stats supplemented by healing) that required enemies to micro (focus-fire) to deal with. The concept is in the name; cockroaches are annoyingly hard to kill. Roaches with the following changes would easily work alongside T1 hydras and lurkers without too much overlap: • Cost increased from 75/25, 27 seconds to 100/50, 40 seconds. • Armor increased from 1 to 2. • Damage increased from 16 (+2) to 22 (+2) • Roach now regenerates 5 life per second burrowed or unburrowed. • Tunneling Claws upgrade removed. • Organic Carapace upgrade added to Roach Warren: • • Requires Hive • • Cost: 150/150, 110 seconds • • Increases roach regeneration to 10 life per second. Instead of trying to switch Hydras and Roaches or making both tier 1. Would it not be much easier to have lurkers morph from roaches? "trying"? It takes no effort. The switch is just because mechanically, and historically, it seems a lot better for the game. Roaches were designed as more of a specialty unit, not the 'en masse' shit we're seeing. Except its not this easy as you might claim. By doing this you need to change everything else. You cannot simply change a unit and except the rest to be the same.
You're right, other changes would be needed. But this isn't necessarily a bad thing, as we could go and fix a number of other problems with Zerg such as overpowered spawn larvae all at once (and why not, since it's Heart of the Swarm?). Here would be the necessary patch notes to integrate lurks, move hydras to Tier 1, and fix spawn larvae:
Queen
• Spawn larva now costs 50 energy and is instantaneous.
Zergling
• Radius decreased from 0.375 to 0.265625.
• Rate of fire increased from 0.696 to 0.546875.
• Move speed increased from 2.9531 to 3.109375
• Metabolic boost research time decreased from 110 seconds to 80 seconds.
• Upgraded move speed decreased from 4.6991 to 4.546875.
• Adrenal glands research time decreased from 130 to 80.
• Upgraded rate of fire increased from 0.497 to 0.40625.
Baneling / Baneling Nest / Centrifugal Hooks
• Removed from multiplayer.
Roach
• Cost increased from 75/25, 27 seconds to 100/50, 40 seconds.
• Armor increased from 1 to 2.
• Damage increased from 16 (+2) to 22 (+2)
• Roach now regenerates 5 life per second burrowed or unburrowed.
• Tunneling Claws upgrade removed.
• Organic Carapace upgrade added to Roach Warren:
• • Requires Hive
• • Cost: 150/150, 110 seconds
• • Increases roach regeneration to 10 life per second.
Hydralisk
• Radius decreased from 0.625 to 0.34375
• Cost decreased from 100/50, 33 seconds, 2 supply to 75/25, 24 seconds, 1 supply
• Light attribute removed
• Ground and air damage decreased from 12 (+1) to 5 (+1) (+3 armored).
• Rate of fire decreased from 0.83 to 1.015625.
• Move speed decreased from 2.25 to 2.109375.
• Speed multiplier on creep decreased from 1.5 to 1.3.
• Grooved Spines upgrade removed.
• Muscular Augments upgrade added to Hydralisk Den:
• • Cost: 150/150, 80 seconds
• • Increases hydralisk move speed to 3.109375
• Lurker morph added.
• • Requires Lurker Aspect
• • Cost: 50/100, 33 seconds, 1 supply
Hydralisk Den
• Now requires Spawning Pool instead of Lair.
• Cost decreased from 100/100, 40 seconds to 100/50, 33 seconds
• Lurker Aspect upgrade added:
• • Requires Lair
• • Cost: 200/200, 100 seconds
Lurker
• Ground Unit - 0.515625 radius
• Burrowed Attacker
• Cost: 50/100, 33 seconds, 1 supply
• 125 life, 1 armor
• Biological, Armored
• Ground Attack: 20 (+2)
• Range: 6
• Rate of Fire: 2.515625
• Sight: 10
• Move Speed: 3.375
• Speed Multiplier on Creep: 1.3
|
On August 22 2012 05:05 sunprince wrote:Show nested quote +On August 21 2012 08:52 Assirra wrote:On August 21 2012 08:38 RogerChillingworth wrote:On August 21 2012 08:30 imallinson wrote:On August 21 2012 08:10 sunprince wrote:On August 20 2012 12:54 sluggaslamoo wrote:On August 20 2012 12:46 -NegativeZero- wrote:On July 22 2012 09:54 Assirra wrote:On July 22 2012 09:37 0neder wrote:On July 22 2012 09:26 Assirra wrote:
[quote]
See here is the problem.
If we put hydras on t1 and indeed tweak them we got suddenly 4 t1 zerg units which give a great increase of new busts but it also takes away some of the mid game.
By doing this alone don't you realize how much you change the whole zerg race and every single matchup including zerg?
If you think roach baneling busts are bad, how about hydra roach busts, units that don't blow themselves up for once.
Easy fix, switch roaches or banelings to tier 2. Or just nerf spawn larvae a bit as well. So to fix a problem you self created by implementing a unit that is not supposed to be there you create something that have to be fixed by another fix. Like i said before you are now switching the whole game around and for what? cause you want that 1 unit in the game. At this rate just make sc3 or better sc2 bw cause we all know that is what it is gonne become. Actually roach/hydra switched around would make a lot of sense, and that is originally how the game was designed in early alpha. Hydras' low health makes more sense for a spammable tier 1 unit, and the roach abilities that had to be removed due to being OP would actually be viable on a 100/50 tier 2 specialized tanking unit (2 armor, 5 hp/second health regen). But seriously, what is the actual point of roaches? 1 supply 75/25 Hydras could do everything roaches can and more. The unit overlap between roaches and hydras is ridiculous. IMO the roach feels more like a protoss unit than a zerg unit. Originally, the point of roaches were to serve as self-healing tanks (e.g. tough due to somewhat tanky stats supplemented by healing) that required enemies to micro (focus-fire) to deal with. The concept is in the name; cockroaches are annoyingly hard to kill. Roaches with the following changes would easily work alongside T1 hydras and lurkers without too much overlap: • Cost increased from 75/25, 27 seconds to 100/50, 40 seconds. • Armor increased from 1 to 2. • Damage increased from 16 (+2) to 22 (+2) • Roach now regenerates 5 life per second burrowed or unburrowed. • Tunneling Claws upgrade removed. • Organic Carapace upgrade added to Roach Warren: • • Requires Hive • • Cost: 150/150, 110 seconds • • Increases roach regeneration to 10 life per second. Instead of trying to switch Hydras and Roaches or making both tier 1. Would it not be much easier to have lurkers morph from roaches? "trying"? It takes no effort. The switch is just because mechanically, and historically, it seems a lot better for the game. Roaches were designed as more of a specialty unit, not the 'en masse' shit we're seeing. Except its not this easy as you might claim. By doing this you need to change everything else. You cannot simply change a unit and except the rest to be the same. You're right, other changes would be needed. But this isn't necessarily a bad thing, as we could go and fix a number of other problems with Zerg such as overpowered spawn larvae all at once (and why not, since it's Heart of the Swarm?). Here would be the necessary patch notes to integrate lurks, move hydras to Tier 1, and fix spawn larvae: Queen• Spawn larva now costs 50 energy and is instantaneous. Zergling• Radius decreased from 0.375 to 0.265625. • Rate of fire increased from 0.696 to 0.546875. • Move speed increased from 2.9531 to 3.109375 • Metabolic boost research time decreased from 110 seconds to 80 seconds. • Upgraded move speed decreased from 4.6991 to 4.546875. • Adrenal glands research time decreased from 130 to 80. • Upgraded rate of fire increased from 0.497 to 0.40625. Baneling / Baneling Nest / Centrifugal Hooks• Removed from multiplayer. Roach• Cost increased from 75/25, 27 seconds to 100/50, 40 seconds. • Armor increased from 1 to 2. • Damage increased from 16 (+2) to 22 (+2) • Roach now regenerates 5 life per second burrowed or unburrowed. • Tunneling Claws upgrade removed. • Organic Carapace upgrade added to Roach Warren: • • Requires Hive • • Cost: 150/150, 110 seconds • • Increases roach regeneration to 10 life per second. Hydralisk• Radius decreased from 0.625 to 0.34375 • Cost decreased from 100/50, 33 seconds, 2 supply to 75/25, 24 seconds, 1 supply • Light attribute removed • Ground and air damage decreased from 12 (+1) to 5 (+1) (+3 armored). • Rate of fire decreased from 0.83 to 1.015625. • Move speed decreased from 2.25 to 2.109375. • Speed multiplier on creep decreased from 1.5 to 1.3. • Grooved Spines upgrade removed. • Muscular Augments upgrade added to Hydralisk Den: • • Cost: 150/150, 80 seconds • • Increases hydralisk move speed to 3.109375 • Lurker morph added. • • Requires Lurker Aspect • • Cost: 50/100, 33 seconds, 1 supply Hydralisk Den• Now requires Spawning Pool instead of Lair. • Cost decreased from 100/100, 40 seconds to 100/50, 33 seconds • Lurker Aspect upgrade added: • • Requires Lair • • Cost: 200/200, 100 seconds Lurker• Ground Unit - 0.515625 radius • Burrowed Attacker • Cost: 50/100, 33 seconds, 1 supply • 125 life, 1 armor • Biological, Armored • Ground Attack: 20 (+2) • Range: 6 • Rate of Fire: 2.515625 • Sight: 10 • Move Speed: 3.375 • Speed Multiplier on Creep: 1.3
Lol, did you just copy the BW patch stats.
In all honesty though, some changes I've been thinking about lately.
You can keep the tiers swapped, just make hydras 1 supply and roaches 2 supply. That way you still keep the interesting air dynamic against zerg while still allowing hydras to be massed. Change stats back to BW level.
Instead of making spawn larva 50 energy and instantaneous (this is a bit rediculous IMO) instead just reduce larva spawn quantity to 2. This keeps the apm requirement and allows for hydra switch. Lurkers can require a 1 min upgrade at the hydra den at lair?
Honestly that's about the most I think Blizzard would be willing to accept, and even that is probably too far away from their shortsighted goals.
Lurker ground attack has to be increased to something like 25 (+15 to armor) if it is going to be 3 supply. Although in all honesty it would be way better if it were 2 supply. The units in SC2 cost too much supply. This is also just a side effect of how the economy system works. Would be better in 1 gas format.
|
|
|
|
|
|
EPT
