On July 13 2012 03:31 phiinix wrote: Lurkers get absolutely demolished when they're detected, and decent terrans save up a lot of scan when moving out
A noob could make the same argument in BW, but they'd be wrong for the exact same reasons.
On July 13 2012 03:31 phiinix wrote: I personally think burrowed banelings to way more damage than lurkers ever could. Get hit by spikes once, don't have scan, walk away. Walk over banelings, no scan, get exploded on, gg.
Clearly you've never heard of stopped lurkers.
On July 13 2012 03:31 phiinix wrote: Hydras, which are required to make lurkers, are awful zvt
Hydras are awful in every matchup. The solution is to fix hydras.
On July 13 2012 00:40 LeGeNDz wrote: Swarm hosts seem so useless against terrans after watching the hots beta cast with day9 the broodlings die immediately from terran firepower and yet dustin and david say swarm hosts will put on the "pressure" to a turtle terran lol? Really? When you have 20 marines and 10 marauders behind a depot wall and 15 broodlings come up the ramp the marines and marauder fire power will laugh at swarm host broodlings, its a useless unit. The other "use" for it is to Control space - how - it takes 30 seconds to spawn units that die off in 5 seconds how in comparison to the lurker is that controlling space?
swarm host is not useless. go play with them in the custom map and you can tell me if they're useless or not
I played the custom map 9 months ago when it was made - its a bit outdated now you know. Swarm hosts don't perform the same way they do in the latest build that was displayed at MLG.
This is the most recent build of hots - Go to 10 minutes 51 seconds, watch all of the damage it does to the terran expansion after it kills 1 battle hellion - you can also see at 11 minutes 13 seconds another powerful wave of locusts causing their massive damage to the terran expansion.
10 minutes 51 seconds , looks pretty useless - caster even says "its a good unit to absorb siege tank fire"
That vid makes me laugh everytime.
If this is Blizzards best shot at showing how "exciting" Hots will be, they might better not try at all.
Yeah. The whole thing sounded scripted, which is not a good thing.
As for the thread, although the lurker may be a unit which is better when compared to the swarm host in a vacuum, SC2 isn't a vacuum. The lurker, if I recall correctly, was removed because it overlapped roles with the baneling. If Blizzard just decided to throw the lurker in the game for HotS instead of the swarm host, they would:
A: Be in the same bind as they were before
B: Be adding a unit that didn't really enhance the gameplay that much
C: Ironically enough, be bashed for adding in an unoriginal unit just to appease the BW crowd
D: Be adding a unit that isn't as good as the swarm host, for the overall game
Although adding in the lurker instead of the swarm host is a great idea when you first think about it, the swarm host fulfills more roles and fills more missing niches in the zerg army than the lurker ever could.
How you came to this conclusion is beyond me.
The lurker serves in the surprise gank, detection forcing, splash damage, anti-infantry, turtling, map control, midgame siege, containment, and ramp defense roles.
The swarm host does... what, bait siege tank fire and slowly cause minimal damage when not detected?
On July 13 2012 03:31 phiinix wrote: I personally think burrowed banelings to way more damage than lurkers ever could. Get hit by spikes once, don't have scan, walk away. Walk over banelings, no scan, get exploded on, gg.
Clearly you've never heard of stopped lurkers.
When you refer what he says only to SC2 your counter argument would most certeinly be invalid. Based on what they didd in the past Blizz would not allow stop Lurkers in SC2. I don't say i agree with Baneling Bombs > Lurkers though, because it seems completely wrong.
On July 13 2012 05:29 wcr.4fun wrote: The definition of a noob varies greatly, I'm not talking about a bronze player here. A master player is a noob compared to gsl pro's like MC. That master player can probably control his collussi just as well as a pro protoss.
Have you ever played bw? Do you know how much skill it takes to achieve mutalisk micro to the point that you can use it against people like flash? You need years and years of practice to get good enough muta micro to be able to compete with players like flash (on that aspect of the game). The collussus requires no such thing. I might have overstated it, but it's clear to anyone with a history in bw that there's no potential in a collussus whereas there's unlimited potential in mutalisk micro.
And I'm telling you again, it's because of things like pathing and AI, not because of the unit design. Just look at your example: Mutalisks are still here in WoL and they are basically exactly the same, yet it's not like in WoL they would have the potential you talk about.
Except they are not exactly the same as the previous model. If you tune in to one BW game and a SC2 one that features Mutalisks usage. You can clearly see with great visual representation that in Brood War, you are able to do so much more with the units with the Stacking bug in place, a feature which I do believe that Blizzard have taken out in the sequel.
They did take it out, but it's still possible to stack them pretty hard and people have done it for quite some time. The thing is, you don't even want to stack them like that in WoL, due to storms and Thors and Fungals and the amount of mutas you go for. There have been plenty of "tricks" in the strategy forum (like following one mutalisk) to make them stuck in very BWesque ways and all of those guides are filled with replies that say: "thx, now I know what I have to avoid doing".
On July 13 2012 06:10 Reptilia wrote: swarm host and broodlords are anti fun units.
Imo not as bad as Infestor play. The more of it I see, the more I dislike the mechanic. At least there are not that many Sentries in the lategame most of the time.
On July 13 2012 00:40 LeGeNDz wrote: Swarm hosts seem so useless against terrans after watching the hots beta cast with day9 the broodlings die immediately from terran firepower and yet dustin and david say swarm hosts will put on the "pressure" to a turtle terran lol? Really? When you have 20 marines and 10 marauders behind a depot wall and 15 broodlings come up the ramp the marines and marauder fire power will laugh at swarm host broodlings, its a useless unit. The other "use" for it is to Control space - how - it takes 30 seconds to spawn units that die off in 5 seconds how in comparison to the lurker is that controlling space?
swarm host is not useless. go play with them in the custom map and you can tell me if they're useless or not
I played the custom map 9 months ago when it was made - its a bit outdated now you know. Swarm hosts don't perform the same way they do in the latest build that was displayed at MLG.
This is the most recent build of hots - Go to 10 minutes 51 seconds, watch all of the damage it does to the terran expansion after it kills 1 battle hellion - you can also see at 11 minutes 13 seconds another powerful wave of locusts causing their massive damage to the terran expansion.
If this is Blizzards best shot at showing how "exciting" Hots will be, they might better not try at all.
Yeah. The whole thing sounded scripted, which is not a good thing.
As for the thread, although the lurker may be a unit which is better when compared to the swarm host in a vacuum, SC2 isn't a vacuum. The lurker, if I recall correctly, was removed because it overlapped roles with the baneling. If Blizzard just decided to throw the lurker in the game for HotS instead of the swarm host, they would:
A: Be in the same bind as they were before
B: Be adding a unit that didn't really enhance the gameplay that much
C: Ironically enough, be bashed for adding in an unoriginal unit just to appease the BW crowd
D: Be adding a unit that isn't as good as the swarm host, for the overall game
Although adding in the lurker instead of the swarm host is a great idea when you first think about it, the swarm host fulfills more roles and fills more missing niches in the zerg army than the lurker ever could.
How you came to this conclusion is beyond me.
The lurker serves in the surprise gank, detection forcing, splash damage, anti-infantry, turtling, map control, midgame siege, containment, and ramp defense roles.
The swarm host does... what, bait siege tank fire and slowly cause minimal damage when not detected?
Stop autocasting to surprise gank, forces detection like lurkers, has splash damage in the effect that it spawns more than one unit, forces terran to push slower, has map control in the same effect that you need to bring a real force to move through a portion of the map with them there, they contain int he same respect that you need certain units (detection, tanks) to move through them and ramp defense. I don't think marine hit squads are going to be running up ramps with two hosts without autocast for the locusts, but that'd just be a numbers game really.
On July 13 2012 05:29 wcr.4fun wrote: The definition of a noob varies greatly, I'm not talking about a bronze player here. A master player is a noob compared to gsl pro's like MC. That master player can probably control his collussi just as well as a pro protoss.
Have you ever played bw? Do you know how much skill it takes to achieve mutalisk micro to the point that you can use it against people like flash? You need years and years of practice to get good enough muta micro to be able to compete with players like flash (on that aspect of the game). The collussus requires no such thing. I might have overstated it, but it's clear to anyone with a history in bw that there's no potential in a collussus whereas there's unlimited potential in mutalisk micro.
And I'm telling you again, it's because of things like pathing and AI, not because of the unit design. Just look at your example: Mutalisks are still here in WoL and they are basically exactly the same, yet it's not like in WoL they would have the potential you talk about.
Except they are not exactly the same as the previous model. If you tune in to one BW game and a SC2 one that features Mutalisks usage. You can clearly see with great visual representation that in Brood War, you are able to do so much more with the units with the Stacking bug in place, a feature which I do believe that Blizzard have taken out in the sequel.
They did take it out, but it's still possible to stack them pretty hard and people have done it for quite some time. The thing is, you don't even want to stack them like that in WoL, due to storms and Thors and Fungals and the amount of mutas you go for. There have been plenty of "tricks" in the strategy forum (like following one mutalisk) to make them stuck in very BWesque ways and all of those guides are filled with replies that say: "thx, now I know what I have to avoid doing".
You have to realize couple of things. Psionic Storms have been severely nerfed and that Thors and Infestors are both moving at low velocity therefore making it rather difficult to return back into the minerals line when being harassed economically.
The way you are making it sound is there are absolutely not one space of breathing room for the Mutalisk Stacking to be advantageous in StarCraft 2. That's not true at all. Being able to stack them diversify the decisive and mechanical facet of the game. Explained previously, by stacking them you can be more efficient at sniping smaller size unit to stall. And while facing against the Splash damage of the Thor, it is important to spread them apart in order to not receive the maximum output. In turn, forcing players to make the correct choice of action AND catalyze for proper micromanagement.
On July 12 2012 08:50 Qwyn wrote: Why not increase the stats on the lurker to make it keep up with the opposition? If the siege tank is currently in the game and works fine, there is no reason why the lurker cannot be buffed to function effectively.
certainly possible to buff the stats of lurker I suppose. I don't know why people are comparing siege tanks to lurkers though. Sure they deal similar damage "type", deal splash, and need to be stationary to attack with splash, but there's a huge difference in their splash mechanics, as well as attack range. Lurker also attacks while burrowed.
On July 12 2012 08:50 Qwyn wrote: Also, I don't see lurkers and banelings being the same at all. Banelings don't control space. They have a one time attack and are gone. They are designed to trade armies. Lurkers are designed to control space.
yeah, I was only referring to BW lurker. I forgot to mention BW lurker the second time when I said I'd rather have it over banelings.
On July 13 2012 00:40 LeGeNDz wrote: Swarm hosts seem so useless against terrans after watching the hots beta cast with day9 the broodlings die immediately from terran firepower and yet dustin and david say swarm hosts will put on the "pressure" to a turtle terran lol? Really? When you have 20 marines and 10 marauders behind a depot wall and 15 broodlings come up the ramp the marines and marauder fire power will laugh at swarm host broodlings, its a useless unit. The other "use" for it is to Control space - how - it takes 30 seconds to spawn units that die off in 5 seconds how in comparison to the lurker is that controlling space?
swarm host is not useless. go play with them in the custom map and you can tell me if they're useless or not
I played the custom map 9 months ago when it was made - its a bit outdated now you know. Swarm hosts don't perform the same way they do in the latest build that was displayed at MLG.
This is the most recent build of hots - Go to 10 minutes 51 seconds, watch all of the damage it does to the terran expansion after it kills 1 battle hellion - you can also see at 11 minutes 13 seconds another powerful wave of locusts causing their massive damage to the terran expansion.
If this is Blizzards best shot at showing how "exciting" Hots will be, they might better not try at all.
Yeah. The whole thing sounded scripted, which is not a good thing.
As for the thread, although the lurker may be a unit which is better when compared to the swarm host in a vacuum, SC2 isn't a vacuum. The lurker, if I recall correctly, was removed because it overlapped roles with the baneling. If Blizzard just decided to throw the lurker in the game for HotS instead of the swarm host, they would:
A: Be in the same bind as they were before
B: Be adding a unit that didn't really enhance the gameplay that much
C: Ironically enough, be bashed for adding in an unoriginal unit just to appease the BW crowd
D: Be adding a unit that isn't as good as the swarm host, for the overall game
Although adding in the lurker instead of the swarm host is a great idea when you first think about it, the swarm host fulfills more roles and fills more missing niches in the zerg army than the lurker ever could.
How you came to this conclusion is beyond me.
The lurker serves in the surprise gank, detection forcing, splash damage, anti-infantry, turtling, map control, midgame siege, containment, and ramp defense roles.
The swarm host does... what, bait siege tank fire and slowly cause minimal damage when not detected?
Stop autocasting to surprise gank, forces detection like lurkers, has splash damage in the effect that it spawns more than one unit, forces terran to push slower, has map control in the same effect that you need to bring a real force to move through a portion of the map with them there, they contain int he same respect that you need certain units (detection, tanks) to move through them and ramp defense. I don't think marine hit squads are going to be running up ramps with two hosts without autocast for the locusts, but that'd just be a numbers game really.
It's completely ridiculous to assert that a few locusts constitute a surprise gank the way that high splash damage does.
Swarm hosts do not force detection, contain, or defend any area as you can simply gun down the locusts while moving past the swarm hosts (compare that to the difficulty of running past lurkers in chokes).
Spawning more than one unit is not splash damage; c'mon, are you even trying?
On July 13 2012 05:29 wcr.4fun wrote: The definition of a noob varies greatly, I'm not talking about a bronze player here. A master player is a noob compared to gsl pro's like MC. That master player can probably control his collussi just as well as a pro protoss.
Have you ever played bw? Do you know how much skill it takes to achieve mutalisk micro to the point that you can use it against people like flash? You need years and years of practice to get good enough muta micro to be able to compete with players like flash (on that aspect of the game). The collussus requires no such thing. I might have overstated it, but it's clear to anyone with a history in bw that there's no potential in a collussus whereas there's unlimited potential in mutalisk micro.
And I'm telling you again, it's because of things like pathing and AI, not because of the unit design. Just look at your example: Mutalisks are still here in WoL and they are basically exactly the same, yet it's not like in WoL they would have the potential you talk about.
Except they are not exactly the same as the previous model. If you tune in to one BW game and a SC2 one that features Mutalisks usage. You can clearly see with great visual representation that in Brood War, you are able to do so much more with the units with the Stacking bug in place, a feature which I do believe that Blizzard have taken out in the sequel.
They did take it out, but it's still possible to stack them pretty hard and people have done it for quite some time. The thing is, you don't even want to stack them like that in WoL, due to storms and Thors and Fungals and the amount of mutas you go for. There have been plenty of "tricks" in the strategy forum (like following one mutalisk) to make them stuck in very BWesque ways and all of those guides are filled with replies that say: "thx, now I know what I have to avoid doing".
just shows how much of a step backwards trying to streamline everything is.
Swarm Host model > SC2 lurker model by far. SC1 Lurkers were cool, but they don't look good in SC2. Also, I'm pretty sure that Lurkers would completely break the game if they would work like they did in BW (insane Splash damage). I think that the Swarm Host will work much better in the way SC2 is designed.
On July 13 2012 00:40 LeGeNDz wrote: Swarm hosts seem so useless against terrans after watching the hots beta cast with day9 the broodlings die immediately from terran firepower and yet dustin and david say swarm hosts will put on the "pressure" to a turtle terran lol? Really? When you have 20 marines and 10 marauders behind a depot wall and 15 broodlings come up the ramp the marines and marauder fire power will laugh at swarm host broodlings, its a useless unit. The other "use" for it is to Control space - how - it takes 30 seconds to spawn units that die off in 5 seconds how in comparison to the lurker is that controlling space?
swarm host is not useless. go play with them in the custom map and you can tell me if they're useless or not
I played the custom map 9 months ago when it was made - its a bit outdated now you know. Swarm hosts don't perform the same way they do in the latest build that was displayed at MLG.
This is the most recent build of hots - Go to 10 minutes 51 seconds, watch all of the damage it does to the terran expansion after it kills 1 battle hellion - you can also see at 11 minutes 13 seconds another powerful wave of locusts causing their massive damage to the terran expansion.
If this is Blizzards best shot at showing how "exciting" Hots will be, they might better not try at all.
Yeah. The whole thing sounded scripted, which is not a good thing.
As for the thread, although the lurker may be a unit which is better when compared to the swarm host in a vacuum, SC2 isn't a vacuum. The lurker, if I recall correctly, was removed because it overlapped roles with the baneling. If Blizzard just decided to throw the lurker in the game for HotS instead of the swarm host, they would:
A: Be in the same bind as they were before
B: Be adding a unit that didn't really enhance the gameplay that much
C: Ironically enough, be bashed for adding in an unoriginal unit just to appease the BW crowd
D: Be adding a unit that isn't as good as the swarm host, for the overall game
Although adding in the lurker instead of the swarm host is a great idea when you first think about it, the swarm host fulfills more roles and fills more missing niches in the zerg army than the lurker ever could.
How you came to this conclusion is beyond me.
The lurker serves in the surprise gank, detection forcing, splash damage, anti-infantry, turtling, map control, midgame siege, containment, and ramp defense roles.
The swarm host does... what, bait siege tank fire and slowly cause minimal damage when not detected?
Stop autocasting to surprise gank, forces detection like lurkers, has splash damage in the effect that it spawns more than one unit, forces terran to push slower, has map control in the same effect that you need to bring a real force to move through a portion of the map with them there, they contain int he same respect that you need certain units (detection, tanks) to move through them and ramp defense. I don't think marine hit squads are going to be running up ramps with two hosts without autocast for the locusts, but that'd just be a numbers game really.
It's completely ridiculous to assert that a few locusts constitute a surprise gank the way that high splash damage does.
Swarm hosts do not force detection, contain, or defend any area as you can simply gun down the locusts while moving past the swarm hosts (compare that to the difficulty of running past lurkers in chokes).
Spawning more than one unit is not splash damage; c'mon, are you even trying?
One lurker doesn't gank a group of marines, nor does one swarm host. You have to have multiples. I'll give you splash damage if you can't see how multiple units can attack multiple units, and you can't move past locusts in a choke easily. You do know units block eachother in this game, right?
They fufill the same roles. You're just refusing to see how the swarm host fufills those roles because it doesn't fufill them identically to the lurker.
And fyi, I'm for the lurker being included instead of the swarm host, but saying the swarm host can't fill the roles of the lurker is kinda silly because it absolutely can.
Edit; why does zerg need more splash? Fungal and banelings are handling groups of units just fine at the moment.
There is a significant difference in the concept of the units .
- 1 or 2 lurkers can/could lockdown an area themselves and have a big impact in that area , meaning that they themselves would not need to be a part of a blobb and could stall/stop a blobb forcing the oponent to split up
- Swarm hosts NEED to be in a blobb of swarmhosts because otherwise 1-2 of them will do nothing due to how their attack works ; furthermore , when in significant numbers , they FORCE the oponent to blobb up to take them out . So all in all , they are PRO-BLOBBING for both the zerg and the oponent side .
On July 13 2012 00:40 LeGeNDz wrote: Swarm hosts seem so useless against terrans after watching the hots beta cast with day9 the broodlings die immediately from terran firepower and yet dustin and david say swarm hosts will put on the "pressure" to a turtle terran lol? Really? When you have 20 marines and 10 marauders behind a depot wall and 15 broodlings come up the ramp the marines and marauder fire power will laugh at swarm host broodlings, its a useless unit. The other "use" for it is to Control space - how - it takes 30 seconds to spawn units that die off in 5 seconds how in comparison to the lurker is that controlling space?
swarm host is not useless. go play with them in the custom map and you can tell me if they're useless or not
I played the custom map 9 months ago when it was made - its a bit outdated now you know. Swarm hosts don't perform the same way they do in the latest build that was displayed at MLG.
This is the most recent build of hots - Go to 10 minutes 51 seconds, watch all of the damage it does to the terran expansion after it kills 1 battle hellion - you can also see at 11 minutes 13 seconds another powerful wave of locusts causing their massive damage to the terran expansion.
If this is Blizzards best shot at showing how "exciting" Hots will be, they might better not try at all.
Yeah. The whole thing sounded scripted, which is not a good thing.
As for the thread, although the lurker may be a unit which is better when compared to the swarm host in a vacuum, SC2 isn't a vacuum. The lurker, if I recall correctly, was removed because it overlapped roles with the baneling. If Blizzard just decided to throw the lurker in the game for HotS instead of the swarm host, they would:
A: Be in the same bind as they were before
B: Be adding a unit that didn't really enhance the gameplay that much
C: Ironically enough, be bashed for adding in an unoriginal unit just to appease the BW crowd
D: Be adding a unit that isn't as good as the swarm host, for the overall game
Although adding in the lurker instead of the swarm host is a great idea when you first think about it, the swarm host fulfills more roles and fills more missing niches in the zerg army than the lurker ever could.
How you came to this conclusion is beyond me.
The lurker serves in the surprise gank, detection forcing, splash damage, anti-infantry, turtling, map control, midgame siege, containment, and ramp defense roles.
The swarm host does... what, bait siege tank fire and slowly cause minimal damage when not detected?
Stop autocasting to surprise gank, forces detection like lurkers, has splash damage in the effect that it spawns more than one unit, forces terran to push slower, has map control in the same effect that you need to bring a real force to move through a portion of the map with them there, they contain int he same respect that you need certain units (detection, tanks) to move through them and ramp defense. I don't think marine hit squads are going to be running up ramps with two hosts without autocast for the locusts, but that'd just be a numbers game really.
It's completely ridiculous to assert that a few locusts constitute a surprise gank the way that high splash damage does.
Swarm hosts do not force detection, contain, or defend any area as you can simply gun down the locusts while moving past the swarm hosts (compare that to the difficulty of running past lurkers in chokes).
Spawning more than one unit is not splash damage; c'mon, are you even trying?
One lurker doesn't gank a group of marines, nor does one swarm host. You have to have multiples. I'll give you splash damage if you can't see how multiple units can attack multiple units, and you can't move past locusts in a choke easily. You do know units block eachother in this game, right?
They fufill the same roles. You're just refusing to see how the swarm host fufills those roles because it doesn't fufill them identically to the lurker.
And fyi, I'm for the lurker being included instead of the swarm host, but saying the swarm host can't fill the roles of the lurker is kinda silly because it absolutely can.
Edit; why does zerg need more splash? Fungal and banelings are handling groups of units just fine at the moment.
The issue is this. The swarm host attacks through proxy units. And it attacks every 25 fucking seconds. That means that not only are your "splash" units/wall able to be killed easily by any amount of units over 8, it means that you have a fucking long window of time where the hosts are sitting ducks.
The lurker doesn't stop attacking, and it deals enough damage to be a deterrent. That's an important difference that you fail to note. Maybe if they made the SH attack more than every 25 seconds. The real flaw with the unit is the idea of proxy units themselves. You can't make them too strong or else they become overpowered, but the result is that they are too weak to cause any realy disruption, and in high numbers you invest too much supply/money into a proxy army that can be killed easily in a straight up fight.
I think Swarm Host looks much better, but for eSports and the game I would much rather see Lurker just because if you are really good you can dodge it with enough good micro, or at least if it would be same like in BW.
Despite the argument between the Lurker and Swam Host, I'm pretty damn sure every Zerg is going to use the Swarm Host as a Lurker. So it doesn't really matter; fulfills the same role differently.
Lurker may debatably be able to do more damage and may be more powerful but thats why it cant be added into the game.
Its a game of balance. If lurker comes in other AoE units will have to come inf or the other race. Like the reaver. The game has enough AoE, it needs different kinds of units.
EPT
