EPTLurker plz..
Lurker vs Swarm Host - Page 24
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Dr_Jones
Norway252 Posts
Lurker plz.. | ||
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Jojo131
Brazil1631 Posts
On July 13 2012 01:49 Zambrah wrote: Skill isn't limited solely to micro though, decision making is another factor in someone's skill, why does the Swarm Host have to be a micro unit? Micro is decision making (very constant decision making too). Unless you consider a-moving broodlords/colossus "micro" I dont know of any units that require decision making without some form of good micro. I really dont like units that are better off just a-clicked, let alone ones that just need a rally to be set... -_- | ||
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AirbladeOrange
United States2573 Posts
On July 13 2012 01:57 Dr_Jones wrote: Seing as the swarm hosts' back look like the face of a 14 year old, all I can think about is popping those "zits"... also, it freaks me the fuck out, and I don't know why.. like, my neck starts tingling every time I look at the picture, and I've got NO phobias as far as I know... Lurker plz.. http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=278820 | ||
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baba1
Canada355 Posts
Same thing with the new mechwarriors thingy. I mean.... wtf??? Just put back the freaking goliath and everyone will be happy, at this point it's just changing stuff for the sake of changing stuff. Makes no sense. | ||
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PermaScrub
32 Posts
On July 13 2012 01:51 0neder wrote: Wait, so the fact that an opponent could get detection, make units and kill it makes it unviable in HotS? Another terrible argument. Lurkers could easily be killed in BW. But they were a nuisance, forced a substantial commitment to detection, and if detection was limited or they caught unit groups off guard they had devastating effects. And all points in favor of the swarm host don't change the fact that it's another surrogate attacker that just dilutes zerg. How is the swarm host a unit the dilutes the zerg race? It fulfills an important niche and does it in a zerg-like fashion Offensive lurker is unviable because it has no way to burrow offensively without being destroyed. Dark swarm is the main thing that allowed lurkers to participate in large scale battles, a spell that doesn't exist in hots.. And because it only has 6 range, it can't punish enemy units that run in to snipe it the way people try to snipe lightly guarded seige tanks. | ||
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Jojo131
Brazil1631 Posts
On July 13 2012 02:00 PermaScrub wrote: How is the swarm host a unit the dilutes the zerg race? It fulfills an important niche and does it in a zerg-like fashion Offensive lurker is unviable because it has no way to burrow offensively without being destroyed. Dark swarm is the main thing that allowed lurkers to participate in large scale battles, a spell that doesn't exist in hots.. And because it only has 6 range, it can't punish enemy units that run in to snipe it the way people try to snipe lightly guarded seige tanks. viperrrrrrrrr ranged units giving you problems? dont worry I can make them melee, or I can just yank em. Your call. | ||
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LeGeNDz
60 Posts
On July 13 2012 01:44 iky43210 wrote: you mean 5 locust can't break through a siege line with 6-8 tanks, especially no creeps? Not that big of a surprise. And if zerg bothers to micro the locust a bit (spread em out, put them in a single files, etc). those locusts could probably reach much further swarm host should not be a complete siege breaker unit like broodlord (where 1 is enough to break siege line). It should be something that exert pressure or slows down tank or even halt tank's progressions. Gives zerg somewhat a zone control like the way how lurkers slows down pushes You mean 2 siege tanks - at 10:52 if you look closely youll see the other siege tanks didn't siege yet and that only 2 were firing. so yeah 2 siege tanks stopped 5 swarm hosts. Pretty good investment of 500 gas and 1000 minerals. Oh you want to micro your locusts now so that maybe atleast 2 of the 10 locusts will get up a little closer and then die anyways, pretty inefficient use of APM. No it doesn't have to be a siege breaker like the broodlord but the swarm host seems useless period. Even if there weren't siege tanks and the terran goes heavy bio which they are mostly in TvZ 20-30 marines and 10-20 marauders won't even get touched by swarm hosts, Use them against planetaries lol? Swarm hosts do not slow down pushes like lurkers did, Swarm hosts have a 30 second cool down on their locusts which is a huge amount of time in the starcraft2 world, 30 seconds is too slow. Lets say the terran is moving out with its 20 marines and 10 marauder bio army and 5-7 swarm hosts fire off their locusts, terran stims stutter steps and kill the locusts then runs forward scans and swarm hosts are dead. | ||
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whatevername
471 Posts
Though swarm host basically should just get removed or something its a pretty bad unit. @permascrub, lurkers were used offensively to great effect all across midgame zvt, engaging large terran bio armies and completely destroying them. Late game you used dark swarm because marines scaled away from lurkers in dps etc without it. They were entirely viable before that upgrade point, and given the natural ball effect in sc2 and the various other splash units for zerg the same would be true but multiplied now. | ||
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0neder
United States3733 Posts
On July 13 2012 02:00 PermaScrub wrote: How is the swarm host a unit the dilutes the zerg race? It fulfills an important niche and does it in a zerg-like fashion. Please review my last post, I edited it with a more in-depth explanation. I just explained how it dilutes zerg. It gives them another unit that has the same paradigm as 2-3 existing units. The less difference there is between the units, the less exciting strategic decisions are, and the less exciting the race is. On July 13 2012 02:00 PermaScrub wrote: Offensive lurker is unviable because it has no way to burrow offensively without being destroyed. Dark swarm is the main thing that allowed lurkers to participate in large scale battles, a spell that doesn't exist in hots.. And because it only has 6 range, it can't punish enemy units that run in to snipe it the way people try to snipe lightly guarded seige tanks. You're talking super-late game and main armies. I'm talking early-mid game posturing and late game tactical maneuvers. You've never seen lurkers RUN INTO a group of units, burrow, and wipe it out or force retreat? I just can't take this comment seriously because it means you barely watched any BW, so you aren't equipped to fully understand the comparison. | ||
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Velr
Switzerland10823 Posts
On July 13 2012 01:13 LeGeNDz wrote: I played the custom map 9 months ago when it was made - its a bit outdated now you know. Swarm hosts don't perform the same way they do in the latest build that was displayed at MLG. This is the most recent build of hots - Go to 10 minutes 51 seconds, watch all of the damage it does to the terran expansion after it kills 1 battle hellion - you can also see at 11 minutes 13 seconds another powerful wave of locusts causing their massive damage to the terran expansion. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ceRs4iOmLco&t=10m51s 10 minutes 51 seconds , looks pretty useless - caster even says "its a good unit to absorb siege tank fire" That vid makes me laugh everytime. If this is Blizzards best shot at showing how "exciting" Hots will be, they might better not try at all. | ||
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thoraxe
United States1449 Posts
I think that video should clear up who I prefer. Swarm host to me seems like the response from Blizzard from players to add in a seige unit for Zerg since they don't have one at the moment. It should technically better since you can dance around it (ah, the good old days). I wonder what Blizz's reason for not adding the lurker is? Perhaps if it was added, the game would have turned out to be a brood war 2.0 and they needed a big enough change to call it a new game. Or it could have been that zerg would've been imba with lurkers in SC2. Some people may miss it, but Blizz has to make some necessary sacrifices and it's just the way it is. It's kind of like the Science Vessel, I think many Terrans would like it back, but it became an essential unit in brood war that they had to remove it to make SC2 feel like a new game. | ||
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Torte de Lini
Germany38463 Posts
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Velr
Switzerland10823 Posts
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mordk
Chile8385 Posts
Now warhounds... well that is actually shit. | ||
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wcr.4fun
Belgium686 Posts
tell me about the gamebreaking micro they pull of with their collussi. And put it in perspective to a noob versus a pro (like jaedong) using mutalisks in brood war and then tell me I'm wrong. | ||
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Velr
Switzerland10823 Posts
Thats like using 100% of the units potential right there! | ||
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CygNus X-1
Canada169 Posts
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Veriol
Czech Republic502 Posts
I can only see it good for holding allins where everything counts and free units are free units when it comes to super low eco games. | ||
Whitewing
United States7483 Posts
On July 13 2012 02:27 Velr wrote: That vid makes me laugh everytime. If this is Blizzards best shot at showing how "exciting" Hots will be, they might better not try at all. Keep in mind that just having those swarm hosts there (and it was only 5 of them, not exactly an army) prevents terran from un-sieging and pushing out with his army until that threat is dealt with, because he needs the swarm hosts to repel it. Add in a viper or two to abduct the tanks in front, or run some other units in with the locusts or any number of other options with the locusts to tank and you can get a lot done. Even if you don't do any direct damage, you are applying pressure and forcing terran to keep his tanks and attention focused in that location rather than allowing him to dicate when he moves out. Meanwhile, you could be harassing with mutas, teching, expanding, etc., and until he deals with that pressure, he can't actually push, the best he could do is harass. It's a way for zerg to apply pressure in the mid-game without going all-in or sacrificing a lot of forces. I'm a little concerned about how overpowered this might be though, because zerg usually does just fine in the mid-game by fighting off the enemy with swarms of lings/banelings or roaches while expanding and teching, and this allows you to spend your resources on expanding and teching without trading swarms of units. Remember folks: a unit does not have to be good in a straight up fight to be useful. Mutalisks suck hard in straight up fights for the most part. The oracle can't even fight but people are worried about the overpowered of its harass. The main purpose of brood lords in your army mix is to force an engagement in an area of your choosing without having to attack into a heaviliy fortified position and a concave. In the open field, they suck pretty badly vs. a decent army composition, even with infestors. The swarm host is a pressure unit at a time where zergs had no pressure ability. | ||
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Sated
England4983 Posts
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