On July 13 2012 00:58 Zambrah wrote: Instead of complaining that they're boring, and bad design, we should all be thinking and suggesting ways in which to remedy the situation.
And no, bringing Lurkers back is not the solution.
Just take the concept of the Swarm Host;
A unit that burrows and spawns units.
We have an immediate variable that can be tweaked for possible interesting play, the units that are spawned.
In what ways can the units spawned by the Swarm Host be made to be more interesting, or useful?
A more powerful unit, an AoE Baneling-esque unit? Maybe a unit that itself burrows and does something interesting.
Come on everybody, Lurkers are not coming back and we might as well spend this time doing our best to help Blizzard make Swarm Host the best unit it can be. :-D
Having 6 different versions of surrogate attacking is just redundant, and dilutes Zerg as a race. You could keep the surrogate paradigm for the swarm host and make it slightly less boring, but it's still another surrogate/indirect unit.
And yes, bringing Lurkers back is A solution. The swarm host or its replacement should be a direct attacking AoE unit, doesn't have to be the lurker, but it should cause immediate terrible danger and be capable of fending off small groups of units all on its own.
You could make the swarm host a burrow move underground dropship, but that overlaps with the nydus worm. It would be better to expand/evolve the nydus mechanic somehow.
The Swarm Host is what we're getting, regardless of how much people want the Lurker back.
Browder has already said in MLG/Gamespot interviews that if enough people want it they'll probably keep the carrier, so I dont see why if enough people want it they wouldn't consider tossing out the SH for the Lurker. We ARE the ones paying for this game after all.
Not removing a unit is one thing, whereas removing a WHOLLY NEW UNIT and replacing it mid-way to Beta is a whole 'nother beasty.
The Lurker will almost assuredly not be back for Heart of the Swarm. Maybe Legacy of the Void, but almost positively not in Heart of the Swarm.
The main difference between Swarm Host and Broodlord is that Swarm Host doesn't guarantee damage, so i wouldn't go as far as to say that SH is just a BL but on a ground. It is weak in comparison in every way. These units that SH spawns (locusts) have huge dps, but are slow and have range 2... so i just don't see it how usefull can it be on a field when they will die 95% of the time before they can actually deal some dmg. Sure, they can tank some, but how many of them do you really need to make it happen? Like 10 SH? 30 supply? 2000 minerals and 1000 gas just to provide some free units that can tank some dmg? Besides that they are useless and if thats their role in a actual game, I would say that infestors are superior option. They can also burrow, spawn units while burrowed and move while burrowed in addition to that. Infestors can also survive on their own (thanks to the fungal) if they have some energy and that infested terrans are not that bad of "free" unit itself. As a support unit, SH are not a better option than Infestors so I don't feel like people will use them at all. On the other hand lurkers... with right range (range upgrade), they would be scary and so versatile. Just that single unit itself would provide so many new strategies for zerg. You could use them to harras, to defend, to siege (with proper range) and set some traps with them, truly control space on a map and they are just cool units. Also, they would have a great synergy with a zerg army, and most important with vipers or infestors.
And last thing, to all people saying that they "tried" to put lurkers back but couldn't find a place for them... just like with carriers? As far as I know, Carriers are in the same place as they were in beta, no patch whatsoever, Blizzard didn't even try to fix them, thats why no one is using them and now they will be replacing them with new unit Tempest? Just stop with this BS.
The micro pro's could pull off when using the Lurker and facing the Lurker made great esport, but the Host doesn't seem to be as spectator friendly. However, we do not know yet, but since there are really few spectator friendly units in WoL compared to BW I believe it won't be as exciting.
Which units make good spectating in WoL? I can only think of a few:
Marine Medivac Muta Infestor
In BW, the units that made jaws drop when handled by pro's are much more common:
The lurker can't even act as a offensive unit in HOTS. It has 6 range so stimmed maruaders can easily run in and take them out. Also, there's no dark swarm spell to allow lurkers to rush in and burrow offensively. The closest zergs will have is blinding cloud, which has a really small aoe and will not work as effieciently as BW dark swarm. So lurkers will probably be regulated to base defense.
On the other hand, swarm hosts can act as an offensive/pressure unit. The movement range of locusts far exceeds the lurker's attack range so it can pressure enemy turtlers and force engagements. The swarm host is a bad defensive unit because of the longish cooldown on the locust timer. The ZvT battle report showed how you could actually run in and burrow widow mines over undefended swarm hosts and kill them.
Lurker = defensive unit that encourages zerg to turtle Swarm host = offensive unit that discourages turtling
And don't start suggesting a bunch of changes to allow the lurker to be viable in hots. One of the key complaints of the lurker in the wol beta was that they changed it so much that it wasn't really the lurker anymore. DB said the same thing about the carrier, they're not going to compeltely revamp it just to it can be usuable. At that point, they would rather put in a new unit.
On July 13 2012 00:51 wcr.4fun wrote: it doesn't matter if they're useless or not. They're bad design. just as much as sentries (force field) and infestors (fungal growth) are bad design. Nowhere does that restrict how usefull or useless they're going to be. If you give those locusts 100 hp obviously they're not going to be useless.
These guys don't promote micro, they don't promote exciting play, nothing. They're incredibly boring to watch.
and why would they be bad design? Are buildings bad desing because they spawn units? Are carriers bad design because they spawn a limited amount of units? Are SC1 queens bad design because they can spawn broodlings? Are vultures bad design because they spawn mines? Are Ravens bad design because they spawn turrets? Are Infestors bad design because they can cast units? Are workers bad design because they can build buildings?
This is so lol, I think I have read this "bad design" thing like a thousand times now, and it is never backed up. Just "it's bad design".
Everyone has explained why they're bad design. They add nothing to the game besides putting the rally point at your opponents base. They don't promote micro from either side. They're one dimensional instead of mulitlayered deep units. A noob can use a collussi just as well as a pro. That's onedimension design. Jaedong can probably outright kill me with 9 mutalisks. No matter how hard I try. A noob probably couldn't even kill a single marine of me.
You are talking BW pathing and BW unit control, not unit design. Every noob is gonna kill a marine of you if he wants to in SC2 and not even DRG is able to kill you with 15mutalisks, if you are not completly naked initially.
And no, the swarm host can definatly work differently when balanced right. You burrow it, you set the rally point, your opponent clears the locusts scans and overruns them, if you don't do anything else. However if you unburrow after spawning and immidiatly relocate, if you keep them unburrowed and just burrow in time (like you siege a tank in time) to fend of an attack, if you control the locust (and the rest of your army), so that they are in front to tank the damage and if your opponent keeps on running around and trying to make you spawn the locusts at the wrong time and rushes in after the spawn, then we are talking real gameplay. Saying you are going to burrow them and set the rally point and thats it, is like saying siege tanks only role is to siege them to run to your opponents base and siege them in range.
Lurkers require micro. Micro = skill + mulitasking which for a spectator to watch is so important and for a player its what used to differentiate the good from the bad. Skillful use of a lurker with its burst damage can change a game
Swarm host looks like the opposite. You plonk it in the ground and wait for it to Locust's . Other than from what i have seen in the videos it doesnt look to exciting. Time will tell i guess when we get into Beta
On July 13 2012 01:06 0neder wrote: And yes, bringing Lurkers back is A solution.
Blizzard did try that during Alpha, but its role overlapped too much with other units so the lurker was cut. Do you know more about game design than the SC2 development team to call it the A solution?
I can't believe people are really criticizing a unit that hasn't even been released yet. On top of that, they are forgetting the one difference that allows the swarm host fulfill a roll that the lurker can't possible fill, it's range. With a range of 6 lurkers can't put anymore pressure on a terran or protoss base than a hydralisk, but a swarm host can hit targets at a range of 30+ (50+ with 25sec locust life-span upgrade).
TL:DR Lurkers have a range of 6 and can't fulfill the useful roll that the swarm hosts can with 30+ range(50+ with locust upgrade).
On July 13 2012 01:37 Xlancer wrote: I can't believe people are really criticizing a unit that hasn't even been released yet. On top of that, they are forgetting the one difference that allows the swarm host fulfill a roll that the lurker can't possible fill, it's range. With a range of 6 lurkers can't put anymore pressure on a terran or protoss base than a hydralisk, but a swarm host can hit targets at a range of 30+ (50+ with 25sec locust life-span upgrade).
TL:DR Lurkers have a range of 6 and can't fulfill the useful roll that the swarm hosts can with 30+ range(50+ with locust upgrade).
Isnt that what Dark Swarm is for(oppps blinding cloud) to help get Zerg into range of the opposition. Who the hell wants to watch or play range 30 battles. We want to see more skill, not A- moving deathballs
On July 13 2012 01:36 Topdoller wrote: Lurkers require micro. Micro = skill + mulitasking which for a spectator to watch is so important and for a player its what used to differentiate the good from the bad. Skillful use of a lurker with its burst damage can change a game
Swarm host looks like the opposite. You plonk it in the ground and wait for it to Locust's . Other than from what i have seen in the videos it doesnt look to exciting. Time will tell i guess when we get into Beta
After the locusts die though, they're pretty much as good as dead if nothing else is guarding them for a few sec. I imagine people will need to manage/guard them within that time until the locusts are ready to pop. I dont like the unit either, would much prefer the Lurker, but I can see some micro potential.
On July 13 2012 00:40 LeGeNDz wrote: Swarm hosts seem so useless against terrans after watching the hots beta cast with day9 the broodlings die immediately from terran firepower and yet dustin and david say swarm hosts will put on the "pressure" to a turtle terran lol? Really? When you have 20 marines and 10 marauders behind a depot wall and 15 broodlings come up the ramp the marines and marauder fire power will laugh at swarm host broodlings, its a useless unit. The other "use" for it is to Control space - how - it takes 30 seconds to spawn units that die off in 5 seconds how in comparison to the lurker is that controlling space?
swarm host is not useless. go play with them in the custom map and you can tell me if they're useless or not
I played the custom map 9 months ago when it was made - its a bit outdated now you know. Swarm hosts don't perform the same way they do in the latest build that was displayed at MLG.
This is the most recent build of hots - Go to 10 minutes 51 seconds, watch all of the damage it does to the terran expansion after it kills 1 battle hellion - you can also see at 11 minutes 13 seconds another powerful wave of locusts causing their massive damage to the terran expansion.
10 minutes 51 seconds , looks pretty useless - caster even says "its a good unit to absorb siege tank fire"
you mean 5 locust can't break through a siege line with 6-8 tanks, especially no creeps?
Not that big of a surprise. And if zerg bothers to micro the locust a bit (spread em out, put them in a single files, etc). those locusts could probably reach much further
swarm host should not be a complete siege breaker unit like broodlord (where 1 is enough to break siege line). It should be something that exert pressure or slows down tank or even halt tank's progressions. Gives zerg somewhat a zone control like the way how lurkers slows down pushes
On July 13 2012 00:51 wcr.4fun wrote: it doesn't matter if they're useless or not. They're bad design. just as much as sentries (force field) and infestors (fungal growth) are bad design. Nowhere does that restrict how usefull or useless they're going to be. If you give those locusts 100 hp obviously they're not going to be useless.
These guys don't promote micro, they don't promote exciting play, nothing. They're incredibly boring to watch.
and why would they be bad design? Are buildings bad desing because they spawn units? Are carriers bad design because they spawn a limited amount of units? Are SC1 queens bad design because they can spawn broodlings? Are vultures bad design because they spawn mines? Are Ravens bad design because they spawn turrets? Are Infestors bad design because they can cast units? Are workers bad design because they can build buildings?
This is so lol, I think I have read this "bad design" thing like a thousand times now, and it is never backed up. Just "it's bad design".
On July 13 2012 01:36 Topdoller wrote: Lurkers require micro. Micro = skill + mulitasking which for a spectator to watch is so important and for a player its what used to differentiate the good from the bad. Skillful use of a lurker with its burst damage can change a game
Swarm host looks like the opposite. You plonk it in the ground and wait for it to Locust's . Other than from what i have seen in the videos it doesnt look to exciting. Time will tell i guess when we get into Beta
After the locusts die though, they're pretty much as good as dead if nothing else is guarding them for a few sec. I imagine people will need to manage/guard them within that time until the locusts are ready to pop. I dont like the unit either, would much prefer the Lurker, but I can see some micro potential.
Hopefully you are right, The broodlord is a nice units but its limited in it micro ability. I just want to see a more skill oriented units in the game. At the moment its Terran that has all the micro units at the moment.
I voted Lurker because of this reason in this poll
On July 13 2012 01:36 Topdoller wrote: Lurkers require micro. Micro = skill + mulitasking which for a spectator to watch is so important and for a player its what used to differentiate the good from the bad. Skillful use of a lurker with its burst damage can change a game
Swarm host looks like the opposite. You plonk it in the ground and wait for it to Locust's . Other than from what i have seen in the videos it doesnt look to exciting. Time will tell i guess when we get into Beta
After the locusts die though, they're pretty much as good as dead if nothing else is guarding them for a few sec. I imagine people will need to manage/guard them within that time until the locusts are ready to pop. I dont like the unit either, would much prefer the Lurker, but I can see some micro potential.
Hopefully you are right, The broodlord is a nice units but its limited in it micro ability. I just want to see a more skill oriented units in the game. At the moment its Terran that has all the micro units at the moment.
I voted Lurker because of this reason in this poll
Skill isn't limited solely to micro though, decision making is another factor in someone's skill, why does the Swarm Host have to be a micro unit?
On July 13 2012 01:35 PermaScrub wrote: The lurker can't even act as a offensive unit in HOTS. It has 6 range so stimmed maruaders can easily run in and take them out.
Wait, so the fact that an opponent could get detection, make units and kill it makes it unviable in HotS? Another terrible argument. Lurkers could easily be killed in BW. But they were a nuisance, forced a substantial commitment to detection, and if detection was limited or they caught unit groups off guard they had devastating effects.
And all points in favor of the swarm host don't change the fact that it's another surrogate attacker that just dilutes zerg.
On July 13 2012 01:36 Topdoller wrote: Lurkers require micro. Micro = skill + mulitasking which for a spectator to watch is so important and for a player its what used to differentiate the good from the bad. Skillful use of a lurker with its burst damage can change a game
Swarm host looks like the opposite. You plonk it in the ground and wait for it to Locust's . Other than from what i have seen in the videos it doesnt look to exciting. Time will tell i guess when we get into Beta
After the locusts die though, they're pretty much as good as dead if nothing else is guarding them for a few sec. I imagine people will need to manage/guard them within that time until the locusts are ready to pop. I dont like the unit either, would much prefer the Lurker, but I can see some micro potential.
Hopefully you are right, The broodlord is a nice units but its limited in it micro ability. I just want to see a more skill oriented units in the game. At the moment its Terran that has all the micro units at the moment.
I voted Lurker because of this reason in this poll
Skill isn't limited solely to micro though, decision making is another factor in someone's skill, why does the Swarm Host have to be a micro unit?
Because no matter what units are removed/added, decision making will always be there.
Besides, don't you see how your decisions are diluted as they become more similar? Let's see, I can get swarm hosts for surrogate attacking, or I can get infestors for surrogate attacking, or I can get brood lords for air unit surrogate attacking...your decisions mean less the more similar they become. The more different they are and the more they force you to commit down one path, the more exciting they are.
This is also why having terran bio be so potent is bad, because it's almost always the best decision, so there is rarely a bold decision the terran has to make.
SC2 has plenty of decisions to make. It lacks amazing micro opportunities. Decisions are impressive, but amazing interactions are what really make exciting games and creates more casual fans/top player enjoyment. The Swarm Host is sub-par BOTH for micro and providing exciting choices to make.
On July 13 2012 01:36 Topdoller wrote: Lurkers require micro. Micro = skill + mulitasking which for a spectator to watch is so important and for a player its what used to differentiate the good from the bad. Skillful use of a lurker with its burst damage can change a game
Swarm host looks like the opposite. You plonk it in the ground and wait for it to Locust's . Other than from what i have seen in the videos it doesnt look to exciting. Time will tell i guess when we get into Beta
After the locusts die though, they're pretty much as good as dead if nothing else is guarding them for a few sec. I imagine people will need to manage/guard them within that time until the locusts are ready to pop. I dont like the unit either, would much prefer the Lurker, but I can see some micro potential.
Hopefully you are right, The broodlord is a nice units but its limited in it micro ability. I just want to see a more skill oriented units in the game. At the moment its Terran that has all the micro units at the moment.
I voted Lurker because of this reason in this poll
Skill isn't limited solely to micro though, decision making is another factor in someone's skill, why does the Swarm Host have to be a micro unit?
Becuase i look at Zerg and they only really have Muta\Infester that micro well i guess. Infester is a great unit, but i dislike its lockdown in fungal growth as it denies the skill of the oppostion from avoiding it. Just want to see more options i guess to let the players decide the battle. Prehaps i am a dreamer and i am not being realistic?
On July 13 2012 01:36 Topdoller wrote: Lurkers require micro. Micro = skill + mulitasking which for a spectator to watch is so important and for a player its what used to differentiate the good from the bad. Skillful use of a lurker with its burst damage can change a game
Swarm host looks like the opposite. You plonk it in the ground and wait for it to Locust's . Other than from what i have seen in the videos it doesnt look to exciting. Time will tell i guess when we get into Beta
After the locusts die though, they're pretty much as good as dead if nothing else is guarding them for a few sec. I imagine people will need to manage/guard them within that time until the locusts are ready to pop. I dont like the unit either, would much prefer the Lurker, but I can see some micro potential.
Swarm Hosts require as much micro as the Tempest ... very little to none. It is a very uninspired unit which has yet another super long range free unit which means it will be very very safe. That alone makes the Tempest, the Broodlord and the Swarm Host really terrible, because they are either not locked in place like the Siege Tank or are hidden because they are burrowed and you need detection to attack them. Thus there arent sufficient drawbacks to them. The Colossus could have fallen into the same category, but the range is not as extreme as those of the other three units (Broodlings can go further than the range away from the Broodlord and thus the range is greater than the listed 9.5).
Personally i'm pretty okay with every new unit. But i think the vipers spell is a bit too much.It looks so uncredibly funny (in a bad way, sry got no word for it) when they grab enemys unit (sieged tank). It reminds me to command and conquer red alert 3, in which a lot of those strange units came up. And i would also higly prefer lurker to swarm host. Just because the lurker is such an awesome unit to handle, i love the sound (especially when it dies). They should really get it back. Overall i just miss the epic sounds broodwar got (and i didn't play bw really much, but got a huge crush on the sound): especially the science vessel, tanks, marines, lurkers, medics, scvs.
EPT
