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Lurker vs Swarm Host - Page 22

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LeGeNDz
Profile Joined November 2010
60 Posts
July 12 2012 15:40 GMT
#421
Swarm hosts seem so useless against terrans after watching the hots beta cast with day9 the broodlings die immediately from terran firepower and yet dustin and david say swarm hosts will put on the "pressure" to a turtle terran lol? Really? When you have 20 marines and 10 marauders behind a depot wall and 15 broodlings come up the ramp the marines and marauder fire power will laugh at swarm host broodlings, its a useless unit. The other "use" for it is to Control space - how - it takes 30 seconds to spawn units that die off in 5 seconds how in comparison to the lurker is that controlling space?
Veriol
Profile Joined October 2010
Czech Republic502 Posts
July 12 2012 15:43 GMT
#422
On July 12 2012 22:54 Big J wrote:
Show nested quote +
On July 12 2012 22:43 Veriol wrote:
On July 12 2012 21:58 Eviscerador wrote:
On July 12 2012 04:27 procrastibation wrote:
The lurker shits all over the swarm host. lurker actually have an attack and is micro-able. swarm host is just another easy to use no control needed unit that will have no trouble fitting into the sc2 hall of fame with the colossus, marauder, and destructible rocks.

but srsly swarm host is totally dumb. all it does is spawn a broodling once every few seconds, which takes 2+ seconds to walk over the the enemy units to start attacking. idk i mean unless you're opponent is retarded or doesn't know how to use sentries, they will just run away or block the broodlings with force fields.


I would love to have means to force the protoss to waste sentry energy without sacrificing anything in return... Voila!

I love the lurker, but the lurker fit well in SC:BW not in SC2. They tried, but there are much more exciting new units. Now we have another one, which increase the metagame deep and complexity. We should be interested and excited.

Also, if you think the host cannot be microed, you are just wrong.


So how you want to micro burrowed unit that is unable to move and spawns 1 broodling-eque unit every 25seconds?..
With luker you can do focus fire to maximize the damage output or hold fire to set up traps and such ..


you have a bunch of units that live 15 or 25 sec to micro, a unit that is burrowed and needs its rally point reset constantly to spawn the units towards the opponent in a battle and well, if you leave the swarm host burrowed to just spawn units every 25sec, then you are hopefully sieging and opponent. But if you rather want to battle, you need to unburrow it all the time to not waste their next spawn.
The concept alone is - though not supermicroheavy - superattentionheavy. It's a unit you want to control all the time, because it has the possibility to do stuff all the time.
Of course, there is the possibility that blizzard balances it in a way, that it is best to just keep it burrowed and rally units out, but Im pretty sure that with 25sec intervalls, it will be very important to keep it unburrowed a lot of times and only burrow just in time. (Im also interested, wether it is possible to burrow it and unburrow it BEFORE the locusts hatch, so that if an enemy wants to attack you, you burrow he turns around and you unburrow, you dont lose the spawn)

This unit has sooo much potential and as I said, when balanced right it should always be active - which is one of the best features that a unit can have designwise.

Sorry i didnt have the chance to play beta but as i understood the unit it would be burrow -> 25s timer goes off ->(after 25s)->locust. If its like you say it can make some nice micro possibilites.
"When you play, you have to start off with a mind to turn the game into a rape." -iloveoov
Zambrah
Profile Blog Joined June 2011
United States7214 Posts
July 12 2012 15:47 GMT
#423
On July 13 2012 00:43 Veriol wrote:
Show nested quote +
On July 12 2012 22:54 Big J wrote:
On July 12 2012 22:43 Veriol wrote:
On July 12 2012 21:58 Eviscerador wrote:
On July 12 2012 04:27 procrastibation wrote:
The lurker shits all over the swarm host. lurker actually have an attack and is micro-able. swarm host is just another easy to use no control needed unit that will have no trouble fitting into the sc2 hall of fame with the colossus, marauder, and destructible rocks.

but srsly swarm host is totally dumb. all it does is spawn a broodling once every few seconds, which takes 2+ seconds to walk over the the enemy units to start attacking. idk i mean unless you're opponent is retarded or doesn't know how to use sentries, they will just run away or block the broodlings with force fields.


I would love to have means to force the protoss to waste sentry energy without sacrificing anything in return... Voila!

I love the lurker, but the lurker fit well in SC:BW not in SC2. They tried, but there are much more exciting new units. Now we have another one, which increase the metagame deep and complexity. We should be interested and excited.

Also, if you think the host cannot be microed, you are just wrong.


So how you want to micro burrowed unit that is unable to move and spawns 1 broodling-eque unit every 25seconds?..
With luker you can do focus fire to maximize the damage output or hold fire to set up traps and such ..


you have a bunch of units that live 15 or 25 sec to micro, a unit that is burrowed and needs its rally point reset constantly to spawn the units towards the opponent in a battle and well, if you leave the swarm host burrowed to just spawn units every 25sec, then you are hopefully sieging and opponent. But if you rather want to battle, you need to unburrow it all the time to not waste their next spawn.
The concept alone is - though not supermicroheavy - superattentionheavy. It's a unit you want to control all the time, because it has the possibility to do stuff all the time.
Of course, there is the possibility that blizzard balances it in a way, that it is best to just keep it burrowed and rally units out, but Im pretty sure that with 25sec intervalls, it will be very important to keep it unburrowed a lot of times and only burrow just in time. (Im also interested, wether it is possible to burrow it and unburrow it BEFORE the locusts hatch, so that if an enemy wants to attack you, you burrow he turns around and you unburrow, you dont lose the spawn)

This unit has sooo much potential and as I said, when balanced right it should always be active - which is one of the best features that a unit can have designwise.

Sorry i didnt have the chance to play beta but as i understood the unit it would be burrow -> 25s timer goes off ->(after 25s)->locust. If its like you say it can make some nice micro possibilites.


I don't think that theres any delay on the Locust spawn when they burrow.



Of course this is a little old, but if they haven't changed it you could theoretically just Burrow -> Spawn -> Unburrow and move -> Burrow -> Spawn, etc. etc.
Incremental change is the Democrat version of Trickle Down economics.
iky43210
Profile Blog Joined May 2011
United States2099 Posts
July 12 2012 15:48 GMT
#424
On July 13 2012 00:40 LeGeNDz wrote:
Swarm hosts seem so useless against terrans after watching the hots beta cast with day9 the broodlings die immediately from terran firepower and yet dustin and david say swarm hosts will put on the "pressure" to a turtle terran lol? Really? When you have 20 marines and 10 marauders behind a depot wall and 15 broodlings come up the ramp the marines and marauder fire power will laugh at swarm host broodlings, its a useless unit. The other "use" for it is to Control space - how - it takes 30 seconds to spawn units that die off in 5 seconds how in comparison to the lurker is that controlling space?

swarm host is not useless. go play with them in the custom map and you can tell me if they're useless or not
wcr.4fun
Profile Joined April 2012
Belgium686 Posts
July 12 2012 15:51 GMT
#425
it doesn't matter if they're useless or not. They're bad design. just as much as sentries (force field) and infestors (fungal growth) are bad design. Nowhere does that restrict how usefull or useless they're going to be. If you give those locusts 100 hp obviously they're not going to be useless.

These guys don't promote micro, they don't promote exciting play, nothing. They're incredibly boring to watch.
amaDeus
Profile Joined September 2011
Germany205 Posts
July 12 2012 15:53 GMT
#426
I never played BW and i tried out the swarm host once - but tbh, as the new units were announced, i was excited about the viper and burrowmove ultralisks. swarm host seems to be like one of the most boring units. i dont like the idea of burrowing and then getting little units when i could use the gas for an infestor or sth else. in contrary lurker seems to lead to a more dynamical gameplay.
voted for lurker.
Zambrah
Profile Blog Joined June 2011
United States7214 Posts
July 12 2012 15:58 GMT
#427
On July 13 2012 00:51 wcr.4fun wrote:
it doesn't matter if they're useless or not. They're bad design. just as much as sentries (force field) and infestors (fungal growth) are bad design. Nowhere does that restrict how usefull or useless they're going to be. If you give those locusts 100 hp obviously they're not going to be useless.

These guys don't promote micro, they don't promote exciting play, nothing. They're incredibly boring to watch.


Instead of complaining that they're boring, and bad design, we should all be thinking and suggesting ways in which to remedy the situation.

And no, bringing Lurkers back is not the solution.

Just take the concept of the Swarm Host;

A unit that burrows and spawns units.

We have an immediate variable that can be tweaked for possible interesting play, the units that are spawned.

In what ways can the units spawned by the Swarm Host be made to be more interesting, or useful?

A more powerful unit, an AoE Baneling-esque unit? Maybe a unit that itself burrows and does something interesting.

Come on everybody, Lurkers are not coming back and we might as well spend this time doing our best to help Blizzard make Swarm Host the best unit it can be. :-D
Incremental change is the Democrat version of Trickle Down economics.
iky43210
Profile Blog Joined May 2011
United States2099 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-07-12 16:00:40
July 12 2012 15:59 GMT
#428
On July 13 2012 00:51 wcr.4fun wrote:
it doesn't matter if they're useless or not. They're bad design. just as much as sentries (force field) and infestors (fungal growth) are bad design. Nowhere does that restrict how usefull or useless they're going to be. If you give those locusts 100 hp obviously they're not going to be useless.

These guys don't promote micro, they don't promote exciting play, nothing. They're incredibly boring to watch.


but you haven't played them yet, and you don't even know the dynamics of HOTS. how do you come to this conclusion?

As poster mentioned above, there is possibilities for microing swarm hosts. Even in the video dustin gave a small explanation as why they decide to make this unit do as it does. Its all speculation at this point, but it'll be better if you provide some insights instead of just saying they're bad design.

There are also a few possible decision factors regarding swarm hosts that wasn't really talked about here, like positioning and syncing swarm spawns (either as a wave or continuous, don't know what's better). It could also be used as a hit and run tactic, since I imagine you don't really need swarm host burrowed at all while the locust is on cooldown. It could be used to pressure or buy time for retreating troops. Or be used as a siege or marine meat shield before running in hydras/infestors for dmg before pulling out. etc

I like the tuck-o-war idea dustin gave. And as long as they make siege tanks relevant (and requirement) for TvZ, i could see it happen.
Young Terran
Profile Joined April 2012
United Kingdom265 Posts
July 12 2012 16:02 GMT
#429
Lurker Lurker Lurker Lurker
0neder
Profile Joined July 2009
United States3733 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-07-12 16:07:19
July 12 2012 16:06 GMT
#430
On July 13 2012 00:58 Zambrah wrote:
Instead of complaining that they're boring, and bad design, we should all be thinking and suggesting ways in which to remedy the situation.

And no, bringing Lurkers back is not the solution.

Just take the concept of the Swarm Host;

A unit that burrows and spawns units.

We have an immediate variable that can be tweaked for possible interesting play, the units that are spawned.

In what ways can the units spawned by the Swarm Host be made to be more interesting, or useful?

A more powerful unit, an AoE Baneling-esque unit? Maybe a unit that itself burrows and does something interesting.

Come on everybody, Lurkers are not coming back and we might as well spend this time doing our best to help Blizzard make Swarm Host the best unit it can be. :-D

Having 6 different versions of surrogate attacking is just redundant, and dilutes Zerg as a race. You could keep the surrogate paradigm for the swarm host and make it slightly less boring, but it's still another surrogate/indirect unit.

And yes, bringing Lurkers back is A solution.
The swarm host or its replacement should be a direct attacking AoE unit, doesn't have to be the lurker, but it should cause immediate terrible danger and be capable of fending off small groups of units all on its own.

You could make the swarm host a burrow move underground dropship, but that overlaps with the nydus worm. It would be better to expand/evolve the nydus mechanic somehow.
Novalisk
Profile Blog Joined February 2011
Israel1818 Posts
July 12 2012 16:07 GMT
#431
What the lurker has which the swarm host doesn't is versatility. Lurkers could perform as a siege unit as well as a surprise attack unit. The swarm host's only purpose is siege (which it performs better than the lurker). If the swarm host had a bit of versatility, it would be on par with the lurker IMO.

Here are a few nice mechanics they could use:

- Give it a science vessel's irradiate spell, except it would not hurt the unit it was cast on, and has to be used while un-burrowed.

- Give it an artillery mode that shoots a big ball of baneling goop.

- When it isn't channeling swarmlings, allow it to generate energy. While burrowed, it can use the stored energy to emit a toxic cloud that hurts all organics in an area, friend or foe. Kind of like a baneling landmine, except it does its damage over time so you could micro out of it, just like the lurker.
/commercial
Jojo131
Profile Joined January 2011
Brazil1631 Posts
July 12 2012 16:09 GMT
#432
On July 13 2012 00:59 iky43210 wrote:
Show nested quote +
On July 13 2012 00:51 wcr.4fun wrote:
it doesn't matter if they're useless or not. They're bad design. just as much as sentries (force field) and infestors (fungal growth) are bad design. Nowhere does that restrict how usefull or useless they're going to be. If you give those locusts 100 hp obviously they're not going to be useless.

These guys don't promote micro, they don't promote exciting play, nothing. They're incredibly boring to watch.


but you haven't played them yet, and you don't even know the dynamics of HOTS. how do you come to this conclusion?


Beta-wizards man, beta wizards everywhere...
Zambrah
Profile Blog Joined June 2011
United States7214 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-07-12 16:15:01
July 12 2012 16:12 GMT
#433
On July 13 2012 01:06 0neder wrote:
Show nested quote +
On July 13 2012 00:58 Zambrah wrote:
Instead of complaining that they're boring, and bad design, we should all be thinking and suggesting ways in which to remedy the situation.

And no, bringing Lurkers back is not the solution.

Just take the concept of the Swarm Host;

A unit that burrows and spawns units.

We have an immediate variable that can be tweaked for possible interesting play, the units that are spawned.

In what ways can the units spawned by the Swarm Host be made to be more interesting, or useful?

A more powerful unit, an AoE Baneling-esque unit? Maybe a unit that itself burrows and does something interesting.

Come on everybody, Lurkers are not coming back and we might as well spend this time doing our best to help Blizzard make Swarm Host the best unit it can be. :-D

Having 6 different versions of surrogate attacking is just redundant, and dilutes Zerg as a race. You could keep the surrogate paradigm for the swarm host and make it slightly less boring, but it's still another surrogate/indirect unit.

And yes, bringing Lurkers back is A solution.
The swarm host or its replacement should be a direct attacking AoE unit, doesn't have to be the lurker, but it should cause immediate terrible danger and be capable of fending off small groups of units all on its own.

You could make the swarm host a burrow move underground dropship, but that overlaps with the nydus worm. It would be better to expand/evolve the nydus mechanic somehow.


Lurkers are NOT coming back. And having the Swarm Host act as just a host with a more interesting spawn unit would, in most people's eyes, make the unit more interesting.

Imagine if Swarm Hosts DID spawn little units that would burrow and move to a target where they would attack and deal single target damage.

The Swarm Host is what we're getting, regardless of how much people want the Lurker back.

Novalisk has the right idea.

EDIT: I'd also kind of like to see how the Swarm Host functions with modes, where certain modes cause it to spawn a certain type of unit, and the units are maybe more specialized or something.

Seriously, just brainstorm ideas for the Swarm Host for Blizzard to see. Better to work with Blizzard, rather than against them.
Incremental change is the Democrat version of Trickle Down economics.
SomeONEx
Profile Joined April 2011
Sweden641 Posts
July 12 2012 16:12 GMT
#434
I haven't liked the Swarm Host at all since I first saw it, so naturally I'd prefer the lurker.
BW hwaiting!
LeGeNDz
Profile Joined November 2010
60 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-07-12 16:24:43
July 12 2012 16:13 GMT
#435
On July 13 2012 00:48 iky43210 wrote:
Show nested quote +
On July 13 2012 00:40 LeGeNDz wrote:
Swarm hosts seem so useless against terrans after watching the hots beta cast with day9 the broodlings die immediately from terran firepower and yet dustin and david say swarm hosts will put on the "pressure" to a turtle terran lol? Really? When you have 20 marines and 10 marauders behind a depot wall and 15 broodlings come up the ramp the marines and marauder fire power will laugh at swarm host broodlings, its a useless unit. The other "use" for it is to Control space - how - it takes 30 seconds to spawn units that die off in 5 seconds how in comparison to the lurker is that controlling space?

swarm host is not useless. go play with them in the custom map and you can tell me if they're useless or not


I played the custom map 9 months ago when it was made - its a bit outdated now you know. Swarm hosts don't perform the same way they do in the latest build that was displayed at MLG.

This is the most recent build of hots - Go to 10 minutes 51 seconds, watch all of the damage it does to the terran expansion after it kills 1 battle hellion - you can also see at 11 minutes 13 seconds another powerful wave of locusts causing their massive damage to the terran expansion.

10 minutes 51 seconds , looks pretty useless - caster even says "its a good unit to absorb siege tank fire"
wcr.4fun
Profile Joined April 2012
Belgium686 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-07-12 16:23:31
July 12 2012 16:14 GMT
#436
I'm not a person with the widest imagination. But besides syncing swarm spanwns, I don't see much more to the unit than setting the rally point towards the opponent base. How is that interesting? I play zerg and I already feel like there's not much to micro. When you play terran, at least you can micro stuff. And I don't really include positioning as micro. Anyone that comes from wc3 knows what I'm talking about when I say micro. And anyone that comes from BW knows what micro is. Zerg had micro in bw. In sc2 we don't, we have positioning and keeping your infestors behind the rest of our army, throwing some fungals (which is the easiest thing ever).

At least with lurkers, there's more micro involved since I have to take actual risks and can do more besides bressing R and putting the rally point besides my opponents base. I gotta spread out my lurkers, know the range of them, reposition them a lot more.

I realize this is a bit offtopic. The lurker might bring more to the table when it comes to micro, but I realize the lurker isn't exactly a unit that required as much micro as a mutalisk or scourge for example. But I know for sure you can do more with a lurker than you could with the swarm host. You don't have to look that far, how much micro is there involved with brood lords? Not much.

And personally I don't see any ways how to make the swarm host interesting. Spawning units was never one of my favourite mechanics in any game.

Adding all this fancy stuff to the swarm host wouldn't make it more intersting. Terrans have a lot of redundant shit. All those cutesy upgrades and units make the game seemingly difficult and deep but they don't add anything of relevance to the game.

I've always foudn the changeling just another cutesy but stupid mechanic. They add nothign for the spectator and not even that much to the player either. Burrow move roaches? Reaper? Medivac starting energy? I'm sure terrans can name dozen more of useless upgrades and stuff they have which makes the game seemingly deep and extensive but at the end of the day are rather boring and add nothing to the game. Who was ever excited about using a changeling? I for sure ain't. Who's ever excited seeing a changeling penetrate the enemies army? I for sure ain't. Running with your army towards a terran base and suddenly seeing 5 mines pop up from the ground and jump towards you, that's freaking awesome and scary. Lurkers? If I would play terran, I'd be scared as hell.
Baneling bombs are something like this, they're fun to watch for the spectator, fun to do as player and scary to play against.
Sc2 needs more of these things.

Butterednuts
Profile Blog Joined September 2010
United States859 Posts
July 12 2012 16:18 GMT
#437
I feel like the second poll in the OP is a little unfair because I'm sure a significant portion of the people that voted either did not play BW or have not tested out the Swarm Host mechanics first-hand.
Chameleons Cast No Shadows
Big J
Profile Joined March 2011
Austria16289 Posts
July 12 2012 16:23 GMT
#438
On July 13 2012 00:51 wcr.4fun wrote:
it doesn't matter if they're useless or not. They're bad design. just as much as sentries (force field) and infestors (fungal growth) are bad design. Nowhere does that restrict how usefull or useless they're going to be. If you give those locusts 100 hp obviously they're not going to be useless.

These guys don't promote micro, they don't promote exciting play, nothing. They're incredibly boring to watch.


and why would they be bad design?
Are buildings bad desing because they spawn units?
Are carriers bad design because they spawn a limited amount of units?
Are SC1 queens bad design because they can spawn broodlings?
Are vultures bad design because they spawn mines?
Are Ravens bad design because they spawn turrets?
Are Infestors bad design because they can cast units?
Are workers bad design because they can build buildings?

This is so lol, I think I have read this "bad design" thing like a thousand times now, and it is never backed up. Just "it's bad design".
Jojo131
Profile Joined January 2011
Brazil1631 Posts
July 12 2012 16:26 GMT
#439
On July 13 2012 01:12 Zambrah wrote:
Show nested quote +
On July 13 2012 01:06 0neder wrote:
On July 13 2012 00:58 Zambrah wrote:
Instead of complaining that they're boring, and bad design, we should all be thinking and suggesting ways in which to remedy the situation.

And no, bringing Lurkers back is not the solution.

Just take the concept of the Swarm Host;

A unit that burrows and spawns units.

We have an immediate variable that can be tweaked for possible interesting play, the units that are spawned.

In what ways can the units spawned by the Swarm Host be made to be more interesting, or useful?

A more powerful unit, an AoE Baneling-esque unit? Maybe a unit that itself burrows and does something interesting.

Come on everybody, Lurkers are not coming back and we might as well spend this time doing our best to help Blizzard make Swarm Host the best unit it can be. :-D

Having 6 different versions of surrogate attacking is just redundant, and dilutes Zerg as a race. You could keep the surrogate paradigm for the swarm host and make it slightly less boring, but it's still another surrogate/indirect unit.

And yes, bringing Lurkers back is A solution.
The swarm host or its replacement should be a direct attacking AoE unit, doesn't have to be the lurker, but it should cause immediate terrible danger and be capable of fending off small groups of units all on its own.

You could make the swarm host a burrow move underground dropship, but that overlaps with the nydus worm. It would be better to expand/evolve the nydus mechanic somehow.


The Swarm Host is what we're getting, regardless of how much people want the Lurker back.


Browder has already said in MLG/Gamespot interviews that if enough people want it they'll probably keep the carrier, so I dont see why if enough people want it they wouldn't consider tossing out the SH for the Lurker. We ARE the ones paying for this game after all.
wcr.4fun
Profile Joined April 2012
Belgium686 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-07-12 16:29:23
July 12 2012 16:27 GMT
#440
On July 13 2012 01:23 Big J wrote:
Show nested quote +
On July 13 2012 00:51 wcr.4fun wrote:
it doesn't matter if they're useless or not. They're bad design. just as much as sentries (force field) and infestors (fungal growth) are bad design. Nowhere does that restrict how usefull or useless they're going to be. If you give those locusts 100 hp obviously they're not going to be useless.

These guys don't promote micro, they don't promote exciting play, nothing. They're incredibly boring to watch.


and why would they be bad design?
Are buildings bad desing because they spawn units?
Are carriers bad design because they spawn a limited amount of units?
Are SC1 queens bad design because they can spawn broodlings?
Are vultures bad design because they spawn mines?
Are Ravens bad design because they spawn turrets?
Are Infestors bad design because they can cast units?
Are workers bad design because they can build buildings?

This is so lol, I think I have read this "bad design" thing like a thousand times now, and it is never backed up. Just "it's bad design".


Everyone has explained why they're bad design. They add nothing to the game besides putting the rally point at your opponents base. They don't promote micro from either side. They're one dimensional instead of mulitlayered deep units. A noob can use a collussi just as well as a pro. Jaedong can probably outright kill me with 9 mutalisks. No matter how hard I try. A noob probably couldn't even kill a single marine of me. Swarm hosts role and potential is too limited.
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