EPTLurker vs Swarm Host - Page 22
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LeGeNDz
60 Posts
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Veriol
Czech Republic502 Posts
On July 12 2012 22:54 Big J wrote: you have a bunch of units that live 15 or 25 sec to micro, a unit that is burrowed and needs its rally point reset constantly to spawn the units towards the opponent in a battle and well, if you leave the swarm host burrowed to just spawn units every 25sec, then you are hopefully sieging and opponent. But if you rather want to battle, you need to unburrow it all the time to not waste their next spawn. The concept alone is - though not supermicroheavy - superattentionheavy. It's a unit you want to control all the time, because it has the possibility to do stuff all the time. Of course, there is the possibility that blizzard balances it in a way, that it is best to just keep it burrowed and rally units out, but Im pretty sure that with 25sec intervalls, it will be very important to keep it unburrowed a lot of times and only burrow just in time. (Im also interested, wether it is possible to burrow it and unburrow it BEFORE the locusts hatch, so that if an enemy wants to attack you, you burrow he turns around and you unburrow, you dont lose the spawn) This unit has sooo much potential and as I said, when balanced right it should always be active - which is one of the best features that a unit can have designwise. Sorry i didnt have the chance to play beta but as i understood the unit it would be burrow -> 25s timer goes off ->(after 25s)->locust. If its like you say it can make some nice micro possibilites. | ||
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Zambrah
United States7393 Posts
On July 13 2012 00:43 Veriol wrote: Sorry i didnt have the chance to play beta but as i understood the unit it would be burrow -> 25s timer goes off ->(after 25s)->locust. If its like you say it can make some nice micro possibilites. I don't think that theres any delay on the Locust spawn when they burrow. Of course this is a little old, but if they haven't changed it you could theoretically just Burrow -> Spawn -> Unburrow and move -> Burrow -> Spawn, etc. etc. | ||
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iky43210
United States2099 Posts
On July 13 2012 00:40 LeGeNDz wrote: Swarm hosts seem so useless against terrans after watching the hots beta cast with day9 the broodlings die immediately from terran firepower and yet dustin and david say swarm hosts will put on the "pressure" to a turtle terran lol? Really? When you have 20 marines and 10 marauders behind a depot wall and 15 broodlings come up the ramp the marines and marauder fire power will laugh at swarm host broodlings, its a useless unit. The other "use" for it is to Control space - how - it takes 30 seconds to spawn units that die off in 5 seconds how in comparison to the lurker is that controlling space? swarm host is not useless. go play with them in the custom map and you can tell me if they're useless or not | ||
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wcr.4fun
Belgium686 Posts
These guys don't promote micro, they don't promote exciting play, nothing. They're incredibly boring to watch. | ||
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amaDeus
Germany205 Posts
voted for lurker. | ||
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Zambrah
United States7393 Posts
On July 13 2012 00:51 wcr.4fun wrote: it doesn't matter if they're useless or not. They're bad design. just as much as sentries (force field) and infestors (fungal growth) are bad design. Nowhere does that restrict how usefull or useless they're going to be. If you give those locusts 100 hp obviously they're not going to be useless. These guys don't promote micro, they don't promote exciting play, nothing. They're incredibly boring to watch. Instead of complaining that they're boring, and bad design, we should all be thinking and suggesting ways in which to remedy the situation. And no, bringing Lurkers back is not the solution. Just take the concept of the Swarm Host; A unit that burrows and spawns units. We have an immediate variable that can be tweaked for possible interesting play, the units that are spawned. In what ways can the units spawned by the Swarm Host be made to be more interesting, or useful? A more powerful unit, an AoE Baneling-esque unit? Maybe a unit that itself burrows and does something interesting. Come on everybody, Lurkers are not coming back and we might as well spend this time doing our best to help Blizzard make Swarm Host the best unit it can be. :-D | ||
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iky43210
United States2099 Posts
On July 13 2012 00:51 wcr.4fun wrote: it doesn't matter if they're useless or not. They're bad design. just as much as sentries (force field) and infestors (fungal growth) are bad design. Nowhere does that restrict how usefull or useless they're going to be. If you give those locusts 100 hp obviously they're not going to be useless. These guys don't promote micro, they don't promote exciting play, nothing. They're incredibly boring to watch. but you haven't played them yet, and you don't even know the dynamics of HOTS. how do you come to this conclusion? As poster mentioned above, there is possibilities for microing swarm hosts. Even in the video dustin gave a small explanation as why they decide to make this unit do as it does. Its all speculation at this point, but it'll be better if you provide some insights instead of just saying they're bad design. There are also a few possible decision factors regarding swarm hosts that wasn't really talked about here, like positioning and syncing swarm spawns (either as a wave or continuous, don't know what's better). It could also be used as a hit and run tactic, since I imagine you don't really need swarm host burrowed at all while the locust is on cooldown. It could be used to pressure or buy time for retreating troops. Or be used as a siege or marine meat shield before running in hydras/infestors for dmg before pulling out. etc I like the tuck-o-war idea dustin gave. And as long as they make siege tanks relevant (and requirement) for TvZ, i could see it happen. | ||
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Young Terran
United Kingdom265 Posts
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0neder
United States3733 Posts
On July 13 2012 00:58 Zambrah wrote: Instead of complaining that they're boring, and bad design, we should all be thinking and suggesting ways in which to remedy the situation. And no, bringing Lurkers back is not the solution. Just take the concept of the Swarm Host; A unit that burrows and spawns units. We have an immediate variable that can be tweaked for possible interesting play, the units that are spawned. In what ways can the units spawned by the Swarm Host be made to be more interesting, or useful? A more powerful unit, an AoE Baneling-esque unit? Maybe a unit that itself burrows and does something interesting. Come on everybody, Lurkers are not coming back and we might as well spend this time doing our best to help Blizzard make Swarm Host the best unit it can be. :-D Having 6 different versions of surrogate attacking is just redundant, and dilutes Zerg as a race. You could keep the surrogate paradigm for the swarm host and make it slightly less boring, but it's still another surrogate/indirect unit. And yes, bringing Lurkers back is A solution. The swarm host or its replacement should be a direct attacking AoE unit, doesn't have to be the lurker, but it should cause immediate terrible danger and be capable of fending off small groups of units all on its own. You could make the swarm host a burrow move underground dropship, but that overlaps with the nydus worm. It would be better to expand/evolve the nydus mechanic somehow. | ||
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Novalisk
Israel1818 Posts
Here are a few nice mechanics they could use: - Give it a science vessel's irradiate spell, except it would not hurt the unit it was cast on, and has to be used while un-burrowed. - Give it an artillery mode that shoots a big ball of baneling goop. - When it isn't channeling swarmlings, allow it to generate energy. While burrowed, it can use the stored energy to emit a toxic cloud that hurts all organics in an area, friend or foe. Kind of like a baneling landmine, except it does its damage over time so you could micro out of it, just like the lurker. | ||
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Jojo131
Brazil1631 Posts
On July 13 2012 00:59 iky43210 wrote: but you haven't played them yet, and you don't even know the dynamics of HOTS. how do you come to this conclusion? Beta-wizards man, beta wizards everywhere... | ||
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Zambrah
United States7393 Posts
On July 13 2012 01:06 0neder wrote: Having 6 different versions of surrogate attacking is just redundant, and dilutes Zerg as a race. You could keep the surrogate paradigm for the swarm host and make it slightly less boring, but it's still another surrogate/indirect unit. And yes, bringing Lurkers back is A solution. The swarm host or its replacement should be a direct attacking AoE unit, doesn't have to be the lurker, but it should cause immediate terrible danger and be capable of fending off small groups of units all on its own. You could make the swarm host a burrow move underground dropship, but that overlaps with the nydus worm. It would be better to expand/evolve the nydus mechanic somehow. Lurkers are NOT coming back. And having the Swarm Host act as just a host with a more interesting spawn unit would, in most people's eyes, make the unit more interesting. Imagine if Swarm Hosts DID spawn little units that would burrow and move to a target where they would attack and deal single target damage. The Swarm Host is what we're getting, regardless of how much people want the Lurker back. Novalisk has the right idea. EDIT: I'd also kind of like to see how the Swarm Host functions with modes, where certain modes cause it to spawn a certain type of unit, and the units are maybe more specialized or something. Seriously, just brainstorm ideas for the Swarm Host for Blizzard to see. Better to work with Blizzard, rather than against them. | ||
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SomeONEx
Sweden641 Posts
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LeGeNDz
60 Posts
On July 13 2012 00:48 iky43210 wrote: swarm host is not useless. go play with them in the custom map and you can tell me if they're useless or not I played the custom map 9 months ago when it was made - its a bit outdated now you know. Swarm hosts don't perform the same way they do in the latest build that was displayed at MLG. This is the most recent build of hots - Go to 10 minutes 51 seconds, watch all of the damage it does to the terran expansion after it kills 1 battle hellion - you can also see at 11 minutes 13 seconds another powerful wave of locusts causing their massive damage to the terran expansion. 10 minutes 51 seconds , looks pretty useless - caster even says "its a good unit to absorb siege tank fire" | ||
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wcr.4fun
Belgium686 Posts
At least with lurkers, there's more micro involved since I have to take actual risks and can do more besides bressing R and putting the rally point besides my opponents base. I gotta spread out my lurkers, know the range of them, reposition them a lot more. I realize this is a bit offtopic. The lurker might bring more to the table when it comes to micro, but I realize the lurker isn't exactly a unit that required as much micro as a mutalisk or scourge for example. But I know for sure you can do more with a lurker than you could with the swarm host. You don't have to look that far, how much micro is there involved with brood lords? Not much. And personally I don't see any ways how to make the swarm host interesting. Spawning units was never one of my favourite mechanics in any game. Adding all this fancy stuff to the swarm host wouldn't make it more intersting. Terrans have a lot of redundant shit. All those cutesy upgrades and units make the game seemingly difficult and deep but they don't add anything of relevance to the game. I've always foudn the changeling just another cutesy but stupid mechanic. They add nothign for the spectator and not even that much to the player either. Burrow move roaches? Reaper? Medivac starting energy? I'm sure terrans can name dozen more of useless upgrades and stuff they have which makes the game seemingly deep and extensive but at the end of the day are rather boring and add nothing to the game. Who was ever excited about using a changeling? I for sure ain't. Who's ever excited seeing a changeling penetrate the enemies army? I for sure ain't. Running with your army towards a terran base and suddenly seeing 5 mines pop up from the ground and jump towards you, that's freaking awesome and scary. Lurkers? If I would play terran, I'd be scared as hell. Baneling bombs are something like this, they're fun to watch for the spectator, fun to do as player and scary to play against. Sc2 needs more of these things. | ||
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Butterednuts
United States859 Posts
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Big J
Austria16289 Posts
On July 13 2012 00:51 wcr.4fun wrote: it doesn't matter if they're useless or not. They're bad design. just as much as sentries (force field) and infestors (fungal growth) are bad design. Nowhere does that restrict how usefull or useless they're going to be. If you give those locusts 100 hp obviously they're not going to be useless. These guys don't promote micro, they don't promote exciting play, nothing. They're incredibly boring to watch. and why would they be bad design? Are buildings bad desing because they spawn units? Are carriers bad design because they spawn a limited amount of units? Are SC1 queens bad design because they can spawn broodlings? Are vultures bad design because they spawn mines? Are Ravens bad design because they spawn turrets? Are Infestors bad design because they can cast units? Are workers bad design because they can build buildings? This is so lol, I think I have read this "bad design" thing like a thousand times now, and it is never backed up. Just "it's bad design". | ||
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Jojo131
Brazil1631 Posts
On July 13 2012 01:12 Zambrah wrote: The Swarm Host is what we're getting, regardless of how much people want the Lurker back. Browder has already said in MLG/Gamespot interviews that if enough people want it they'll probably keep the carrier, so I dont see why if enough people want it they wouldn't consider tossing out the SH for the Lurker. We ARE the ones paying for this game after all. | ||
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wcr.4fun
Belgium686 Posts
On July 13 2012 01:23 Big J wrote: and why would they be bad design? Are buildings bad desing because they spawn units? Are carriers bad design because they spawn a limited amount of units? Are SC1 queens bad design because they can spawn broodlings? Are vultures bad design because they spawn mines? Are Ravens bad design because they spawn turrets? Are Infestors bad design because they can cast units? Are workers bad design because they can build buildings? This is so lol, I think I have read this "bad design" thing like a thousand times now, and it is never backed up. Just "it's bad design". Everyone has explained why they're bad design. They add nothing to the game besides putting the rally point at your opponents base. They don't promote micro from either side. They're one dimensional instead of mulitlayered deep units. A noob can use a collussi just as well as a pro. Jaedong can probably outright kill me with 9 mutalisks. No matter how hard I try. A noob probably couldn't even kill a single marine of me. Swarm hosts role and potential is too limited. | ||
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