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This thread is going nowhere and I'm tired of dealing with it. Either drop the personal attacks and whining and replace it with actual discussion or it'll be closed.
12:09 KST Page 98 |
On June 24 2012 08:50 The Final Boss wrote:
I was a Masters Terran before I stopped playing for a while, but since I quit Terran has gone from the evil, OP race to the victims of imbalance (frankly I kind of like it, haha). The thing that really bugs me are the Zerg and Protoss players claiming "Oh, well Terran should just do something else." Let's have a walk down memory lane with the Terran race and Blizzard's nerfs:
1. Way, way back, Proxy Raxs (I'm talking BBS, not your standard SBB that you see nowadays) were too strong. Blizzard's response: You need a Depot to build a Barracks.
2. MorroW beats IdrA with Reapers. Blizzard's reponse: Reapers no longer useable outside of a single one for scouting purposes.
3. Jump to TvP: ThorZaIN beats MC with Thors. Blizzard's response: inbetween semi-finals and finals (bit hasty, don't you think...), Thors get nerfed, basically making Thor-based mech unplayable as anything other than a cheese.
4. Back to TvZ: SlayerS Terrans take MLG by force with the Blue Flame Hellion build. IdrA cries. Blizzard nerfs Blue Flame.
5. Mvp and MMA still winning; Barracks buildtime increased by 5 seconds.
6. Mvp sniped literally everything Zerg had. Blizzard makes Ghosts pretty worthless outside of TvP. Qxc cries because they don't work in his TvT cheeses. Poor Qxc, I still love you.
7. Hellions too strong, buff Queen.
(there are probably a few more instances of huge changes, but these were certainly the most memorable in my eyes).
I haven't really gotten a chance to actually play TvZ since the patch, but saying that Terran has not adapted is a ridiculous statement. What are we supposed to do? Anytime a player wins in a major tournament with anything other than MMM, Tanks, or When Protoss players were complaining about balance and half of them had never even built a Warp Prism or tried High Templar tech, that sort of argument actually made sense. And don't Zerg players almost always open with the exact same build, then eventually get infestors, and eventually transition into either Broods or Ultras, later getting the other if the first wave doesn't work. Zerg has been doing the same sort of basic game plan for over a year, but if they have a problem then it must be the fault of balance.
I really can't make an assessment on the metagame, balance, or the match-up, but Terran has, throughout the history of StarCraft had the most diversity in it's strategies; that's not because of me, that's not because of the Terran players talking in this thread, it's because of the guys like Mvp or MMA who have won and probably will continue to win regardless of what nerfs Blizzard inflicts upon them. They have for the history of StarCraft 2 been coming up with strategies, making new builds, and creating new ways to murder their opponents in fashions that seem (and sometimes are) OP. Similarly, Zergs and Protoss players have not come up with their own builds (at least not the ones talking in this thread) but rather they use copies of pro builds from players like MC, Stephano, NesTea, DRG, HerO, nani, Oz, or other great players.
Also the quote from the Blizzard guy in the OP makes me laugh. He's talking about how it's all about the big picture and how Terran is going to look in Heart of the Swarm, yet there are a myriad of professional StarCraft pros who play Terran and rely on this game as a source of income. Let's not worry about the game that you might release in the next year or two and lets focus on the present. Blizz does a really terrible job of balancing their attention towards the competitive crowd and the casual crowd.
You, sir, read my mind!
I honestly don't understand people claiming that Terran will figure something out every time there is a nerf. Well sooner or later all our options will be shut because all of our units have nerfed directly/indirectly, and I think that time is pretty close now.
Thankfully HOTS will reset the metagame.... But I don't want to wait for that long =(
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On June 24 2012 09:08 Torra wrote:Show nested quote +On June 24 2012 08:29 Crookie wrote:On June 24 2012 08:18 s3rp wrote:On June 24 2012 08:13 Crookie wrote:On June 24 2012 08:04 s3rp wrote:On June 24 2012 07:52 Crookie wrote:
Hey guys... I just wanted to talk about something really quick.
I would like to go ahead and state that I play zerg at mid-high masters and I also have a terran and protoss accout at low masters. Although I do cannot offer specifics, I think we need to change the discussion here a little bit.
I will be the first one to tell you that ZvT is very zerg favored right now. However, I think that this thread has turned into nothing but people complaining about the matchup instead of doing anything about it. Yes, I realize that zerg is strong. Yes I realize queens let zergs get tons of drones and set them up great for lategame. Yes I agree that in the current meta, zergs late-game is much stronger than terrans in most situations. These are all things that have been established. There is litterally no point to have people come in here and just state these facts over and over again. I have been following this thread since the beginning, and very few posts have actually talked about a change in current terran playstyle.
In ZvP, protoss complained about the 4 range roach for a while, and had a tough time forge expanding. When the infestor was buffed, protoss complained that mass blink stalker no longer worked against zerg, who began switching to ling/infestor instead of roach hydra. The fact that patches can greatly change the normal path of a game is well established. Yes, we realized that pre-patch strategies no longer work post-patch.
Now that I have this established, I would like to ask everyone who posts to offer something to the discussion more than just "wow queens too stronk," or "zerg so op, queens make all hellion openers useless".
I would also like to offer a suggestion to hopefully get something started. Please note, I am a much higher level zerg than I am terran, but I am just offering ideas:
What we have established:
-New queen buff has allowed zerg to power drones and take a quick third base, relying on a 6 queen defence.
-Zergs will now open with no gas untill they take a third base, around 6 minutes
-Hellions are no longer a good opener, as zergs can still spread creep, protect drones, and take a fast 3rd base (defeating the main uses of the hellion opener).
-As a side effect of mass queens, zergs get absurd creep spead.
-With this early eco advantage, zergs can easily go infestor ultra/brood which easily defeats the current terran meta (marine + tank)
I think with this new level of creepspread, it is no longer effective to scan for creep tumors. They can be replaced so easily that I think it is almost necessary to make a raven in order to remove creep. One Idea that I can think of is maybe opening 1 rax double expand (make sure to sac scv/scan for gas to make sure no roach/bling attacks are incoming) and maybe trying to get a fast raven to try to keep under control. With ling speed so late, hellions or marines will be free to cross the map safely to remove creep, pick off queens, etc. Remember that by going mass queen, zergs give up map control. I think that if you continue to produce ravens that early, late game they will have alot of energy and, if spread properly to avoid fungals, HSM can be very effective against broods, while the PDD is very good against corrupters (to assist in winning air battle). I also think mech + ravens (maybe even a few ghost for emp) is still very strong lategame, no matter the zerg composition (also remember that you can spend extra minerals on mass orbital so that you can sac SCV to get stronger army). I think maybe this should be experimented with in order to combat the zerg's strong lategame.
Sorry for the long post, but I feel that it is very useless to keep complaining to eachother that zerg is strong in the current meta. Maybe my idea is awful, but atleast we can do something more productive that just complaining. Blizzard does not read TL (or, atleast not all 70 pages of this thread) and I doubt they would nerf zerg just because of this thread. Couple of things about this is 1.) Bio Pressure without Stim will only work with proxied rax with how slow Bio is ( its just 2.25 even slow Lings offcreep are considerably faster ) on just about every Map 2.) Ravens early mean later tanks/medivacs and are useless IF he goes anything but Air 3.) Fungal Growth will put but big wrench into anything involving Raven considering 6 range against 9.. 4.) Mech = 3 Bases stuck and no chance to take more then 3 Bases while also not beeing able to take out Zergbases because you have to play deathballstyle with your 1.975-2.25 speed army . I did experiment with this it is much worse than the now worse strats of old. Mech is not that good. Ravens are frustratingly BAD. Ok, fair enough. One thing I would like to state is that maybe bio is not viable anymore (atleast at this point). I feel like the maxed mech army is much much stronger, and how things are going in TvZ right now, it seems that playing for the late game is the only viable option. If you open bio, and want to have a strong late game, you will be stuck with a bunch of barracks and useless bio upgrades. I am suggesting that maybe terrans open hellions + raven to clear creep early game. Even slow lings on creep cant touch the hellions, and both the hellions and raven will complement your lategame army. With fungal growth + ravens, if you spread you ravens well enough (similar to mutas in a ZvZ), it will take waaaay too many fungals to lock down ALL the ravens, and it only takes 2 or 3 HSM to destroy broodlords. And if they try to focus the ravens with corruptors, the ravens can still PDD while fungaled to protect them long enough for vikings + thors to kill them. As I said before, I do not expect this to be the solution to all terran's TvZ problems, but I am just hoping to get the ball rolling in respect to new theorycrafting. It is quite obvious that the current terran strategies from pre-patch do not work anymore, and I think a drastic change will need to take effect. 1. I don't see how Raven Helion does anything to an opening with 4 Queens on creep duty ..... I mean you see the tumors but you'll lose alot of Helion/Raven life for what a bit of Energy ? Even if you don't need to scan creep turmors can be replanted so fast. 2. 2-3 HSM's kill clumped Broodlords. Even slightly spread ones need at least 5-6 . The splash is very small but Zerg and Toss players don't know that because it rarely gets used ( try in in Unittester you'll be seriously underwhelmed by HSM ) PDD can stop queen auto-attack, and if you are going mech, hellions are essentially free (while gas will be your limiting factor in terms of unit production). I dont think hellion/raven can outright kill the queens (although possible), but it atleast offers some potential option to try to control the creep. While I agree that HSM is not very strong against spread units, It can still do a decent amount of damage to them, and mainly, it can help your vikings beat the corruptors outright. While fungals may be a problem, I think even 2-3 ghosts could offer some help. Also, spreading you own air units will help alot. And even though spreading broodlords can help vs HSM, its better than letting the zerg ball up and a-move. Similar to in PvZ, the mothership is not near as effective against broods if they are spread out, but the mothership does 2 things: 1. If the zerg does slip up on their micro for 1 seconds, their entire army is gone and the game is over. 2. It forces to zerg to split up their broods, which makes it a little bit more managable to take them out. Also remember that if you produce the ravens so early in the game, by the lategame, they will all be full on energy. Even if HSM doesnt do insane amounts of damage, you will have a shitton of them (plus PDD, which is very underrated against late game zerg) Roach/bane/ling "all in" would be really strong against it.
Not only that, also muta builds. It's a pure coinflip build.
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too early to tell, the days of running hellions into the main to auto gg are over, you need to get over that fact
also, if the Z is building like 4-6 queens they are playing defensive, think about that
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On June 24 2012 09:15 mememolly wrote:
too early to tell, the days of running hellions into the main to auto gg are over, you need to get over that fact
also, if the Z is building like 4-6 queens they are playing defensive, think about that
There was never an auto-gg against a good Zerg.
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TvZ is a problem all by itself.
just making hellions semi-good again is only masking the problem.
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On June 24 2012 09:15 mememolly wrote:
too early to tell, the days of running hellions into the main to auto gg are over, you need to get over that fact
also, if the Z is building like 4-6 queens they are playing defensive, think about that
You knew that a lot of smart terrans stopped doing this before the patch? If the zerg had units, and trapped you, you would die 100% vs roach ling bling allin.
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On June 24 2012 09:16 Shiori wrote:Show nested quote +On June 24 2012 09:15 mememolly wrote:
too early to tell, the days of running hellions into the main to auto gg are over, you need to get over that fact
also, if the Z is building like 4-6 queens they are playing defensive, think about that There was never an auto-gg against a good Zerg.
What a stupid thing to say. You would consistently see zergs lose to hellion run bys at every level of play. This is exactly why they gave the queen a buff.
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On June 24 2012 09:12 Snowbear wrote:Show nested quote +On June 24 2012 09:08 Torra wrote:On June 24 2012 08:29 Crookie wrote:On June 24 2012 08:18 s3rp wrote:On June 24 2012 08:13 Crookie wrote:On June 24 2012 08:04 s3rp wrote:On June 24 2012 07:52 Crookie wrote:
Hey guys... I just wanted to talk about something really quick.
I would like to go ahead and state that I play zerg at mid-high masters and I also have a terran and protoss accout at low masters. Although I do cannot offer specifics, I think we need to change the discussion here a little bit.
I will be the first one to tell you that ZvT is very zerg favored right now. However, I think that this thread has turned into nothing but people complaining about the matchup instead of doing anything about it. Yes, I realize that zerg is strong. Yes I realize queens let zergs get tons of drones and set them up great for lategame. Yes I agree that in the current meta, zergs late-game is much stronger than terrans in most situations. These are all things that have been established. There is litterally no point to have people come in here and just state these facts over and over again. I have been following this thread since the beginning, and very few posts have actually talked about a change in current terran playstyle.
In ZvP, protoss complained about the 4 range roach for a while, and had a tough time forge expanding. When the infestor was buffed, protoss complained that mass blink stalker no longer worked against zerg, who began switching to ling/infestor instead of roach hydra. The fact that patches can greatly change the normal path of a game is well established. Yes, we realized that pre-patch strategies no longer work post-patch.
Now that I have this established, I would like to ask everyone who posts to offer something to the discussion more than just "wow queens too stronk," or "zerg so op, queens make all hellion openers useless".
I would also like to offer a suggestion to hopefully get something started. Please note, I am a much higher level zerg than I am terran, but I am just offering ideas:
What we have established:
-New queen buff has allowed zerg to power drones and take a quick third base, relying on a 6 queen defence.
-Zergs will now open with no gas untill they take a third base, around 6 minutes
-Hellions are no longer a good opener, as zergs can still spread creep, protect drones, and take a fast 3rd base (defeating the main uses of the hellion opener).
-As a side effect of mass queens, zergs get absurd creep spead.
-With this early eco advantage, zergs can easily go infestor ultra/brood which easily defeats the current terran meta (marine + tank)
I think with this new level of creepspread, it is no longer effective to scan for creep tumors. They can be replaced so easily that I think it is almost necessary to make a raven in order to remove creep. One Idea that I can think of is maybe opening 1 rax double expand (make sure to sac scv/scan for gas to make sure no roach/bling attacks are incoming) and maybe trying to get a fast raven to try to keep under control. With ling speed so late, hellions or marines will be free to cross the map safely to remove creep, pick off queens, etc. Remember that by going mass queen, zergs give up map control. I think that if you continue to produce ravens that early, late game they will have alot of energy and, if spread properly to avoid fungals, HSM can be very effective against broods, while the PDD is very good against corrupters (to assist in winning air battle). I also think mech + ravens (maybe even a few ghost for emp) is still very strong lategame, no matter the zerg composition (also remember that you can spend extra minerals on mass orbital so that you can sac SCV to get stronger army). I think maybe this should be experimented with in order to combat the zerg's strong lategame.
Sorry for the long post, but I feel that it is very useless to keep complaining to eachother that zerg is strong in the current meta. Maybe my idea is awful, but atleast we can do something more productive that just complaining. Blizzard does not read TL (or, atleast not all 70 pages of this thread) and I doubt they would nerf zerg just because of this thread. Couple of things about this is 1.) Bio Pressure without Stim will only work with proxied rax with how slow Bio is ( its just 2.25 even slow Lings offcreep are considerably faster ) on just about every Map 2.) Ravens early mean later tanks/medivacs and are useless IF he goes anything but Air 3.) Fungal Growth will put but big wrench into anything involving Raven considering 6 range against 9.. 4.) Mech = 3 Bases stuck and no chance to take more then 3 Bases while also not beeing able to take out Zergbases because you have to play deathballstyle with your 1.975-2.25 speed army . I did experiment with this it is much worse than the now worse strats of old. Mech is not that good. Ravens are frustratingly BAD. Ok, fair enough. One thing I would like to state is that maybe bio is not viable anymore (atleast at this point). I feel like the maxed mech army is much much stronger, and how things are going in TvZ right now, it seems that playing for the late game is the only viable option. If you open bio, and want to have a strong late game, you will be stuck with a bunch of barracks and useless bio upgrades. I am suggesting that maybe terrans open hellions + raven to clear creep early game. Even slow lings on creep cant touch the hellions, and both the hellions and raven will complement your lategame army. With fungal growth + ravens, if you spread you ravens well enough (similar to mutas in a ZvZ), it will take waaaay too many fungals to lock down ALL the ravens, and it only takes 2 or 3 HSM to destroy broodlords. And if they try to focus the ravens with corruptors, the ravens can still PDD while fungaled to protect them long enough for vikings + thors to kill them. As I said before, I do not expect this to be the solution to all terran's TvZ problems, but I am just hoping to get the ball rolling in respect to new theorycrafting. It is quite obvious that the current terran strategies from pre-patch do not work anymore, and I think a drastic change will need to take effect. 1. I don't see how Raven Helion does anything to an opening with 4 Queens on creep duty ..... I mean you see the tumors but you'll lose alot of Helion/Raven life for what a bit of Energy ? Even if you don't need to scan creep turmors can be replanted so fast. 2. 2-3 HSM's kill clumped Broodlords. Even slightly spread ones need at least 5-6 . The splash is very small but Zerg and Toss players don't know that because it rarely gets used ( try in in Unittester you'll be seriously underwhelmed by HSM ) PDD can stop queen auto-attack, and if you are going mech, hellions are essentially free (while gas will be your limiting factor in terms of unit production). I dont think hellion/raven can outright kill the queens (although possible), but it atleast offers some potential option to try to control the creep. While I agree that HSM is not very strong against spread units, It can still do a decent amount of damage to them, and mainly, it can help your vikings beat the corruptors outright. While fungals may be a problem, I think even 2-3 ghosts could offer some help. Also, spreading you own air units will help alot. And even though spreading broodlords can help vs HSM, its better than letting the zerg ball up and a-move. Similar to in PvZ, the mothership is not near as effective against broods if they are spread out, but the mothership does 2 things: 1. If the zerg does slip up on their micro for 1 seconds, their entire army is gone and the game is over. 2. It forces to zerg to split up their broods, which makes it a little bit more managable to take them out. Also remember that if you produce the ravens so early in the game, by the lategame, they will all be full on energy. Even if HSM doesnt do insane amounts of damage, you will have a shitton of them (plus PDD, which is very underrated against late game zerg) Roach/bane/ling "all in" would be really strong against it. Not only that, also muta builds. It's a pure coinflip build.
Once again, 1 scan can easily reveal what the zerg is doing. If you're going mech, thors are more than enough to defend them. Much less, PDD works against mutas and also HSM can be used in an emergency situation to atleast force the mutas to back up.
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On June 24 2012 09:16 ellaguru wrote:
TvZ is a problem all by itself.
just making hellions semi-good again is only masking the problem.
I agree with this. The problem is that zerg armies can trade too cost efficiënt with terran armies, but meanwhile everyone refuses to discuss this, and prefers to talk about ravens.
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Those complaints came mostly just before and just after each of the patches went live. I have not seen pretty much every pro and casual players complaining about a patch to this extent even over a month after a patch went through.
Most previous patches didn't change any given matchup quite as much, except as demonstrably needed. Other patches made some small tweaks that didn't fundamentally change things.
For example, blue flame hellion nerf - before it, well, you really could get your workers run over pretty fast by a few hellions. Or barracks after supply depot so you wouldn't get totally crushed by proxy barracks rushes. You almost needed nerfs so overinvestment in defense wouldn't be needed.
Or let's say ghosts EMP radius was tweaked. You still used EMP, it just wasn't as freaking awesome. Same for snipe, although even more so. (A lot more so, actually.)
Some patches made chops of the sort not already described. But they weren't demonized as much. For example Thors were nerfed, but a lot of Terrans were using bioball at that point anyways, so there wasn't a lot of outcry.
But now we have a pretty established style that got chopped - Hellion harassing - which led to better Zerg lategame transition, which throws everything a lot out of whack. A lot of players used Hellions, and a lot did so because in part they couldn't find ways to answer Zerg lategame. So - more outcry.
Not to say the outcry isn't justified in this case. But it makes sense that this change would have more complaints than previous changes.
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On June 24 2012 09:17 Holophonist wrote:Show nested quote +On June 24 2012 09:16 Shiori wrote:On June 24 2012 09:15 mememolly wrote:
too early to tell, the days of running hellions into the main to auto gg are over, you need to get over that fact
also, if the Z is building like 4-6 queens they are playing defensive, think about that There was never an auto-gg against a good Zerg. What a stupid thing to say. You would consistently see zergs lose to hellion run bys at every level of play. This is exactly why they gave the queen a buff.
Lol, no you wouldn't. Consistently? Only as consistently as top Terrans would lose to Speedling runbys...
I'm sorry, but nobody good was losing "consistently" to Hellion runbys.
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On June 24 2012 09:15 mememolly wrote:
too early to tell, the days of running hellions into the main to auto gg are over, you need to get over that fact
also, if the Z is building like 4-6 queens they are playing defensive, think about that
Not when those 4-6 queens allow you to take a third without having any other units than drones and spread creep more than halfway across the map at 8 minutes. They are not playing defensive, they are playing GREEDY.
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On June 24 2012 08:50 The Final Boss wrote:
I was a Masters Terran before I stopped playing for a while, but since I quit Terran has gone from the evil, OP race to the victims of imbalance (frankly I kind of like it, haha). The thing that really bugs me are the Zerg and Protoss players claiming "Oh, well Terran should just do something else." Let's have a walk down memory lane with the Terran race and Blizzard's nerfs:
1. Way, way back, Proxy Raxs (I'm talking BBS, not your standard SBB that you see nowadays) were too strong. Blizzard's response: You need a Depot to build a Barracks.
2. MorroW beats IdrA with Reapers. Blizzard's reponse: Reapers no longer useable outside of a single one for scouting purposes.
3. Jump to TvP: ThorZaIN beats MC with Thors. Blizzard's response: inbetween semi-finals and finals (bit hasty, don't you think...), Thors get nerfed, basically making Thor-based mech unplayable as anything other than a cheese.
4. Back to TvZ: SlayerS Terrans take MLG by force with the Blue Flame Hellion build. IdrA cries. Blizzard nerfs Blue Flame.
5. Mvp and MMA still winning; Barracks buildtime increased by 5 seconds.
6. Mvp sniped literally everything Zerg had. Blizzard makes Ghosts pretty worthless outside of TvP. Qxc cries because they don't work in his TvT cheeses. Poor Qxc, I still love you.
7. Hellions too strong, buff Queen.
(there are probably a few more instances of huge changes, but these were certainly the most memorable in my eyes).
I haven't really gotten a chance to actually play TvZ since the patch, but saying that Terran has not adapted is a ridiculous statement. What are we supposed to do? Anytime a player wins in a major tournament with anything other than MMM, Tanks, or When Protoss players were complaining about balance and half of them had never even built a Warp Prism or tried High Templar tech, that sort of argument actually made sense. And don't Zerg players almost always open with the exact same build, then eventually get infestors, and eventually transition into either Broods or Ultras, later getting the other if the first wave doesn't work. Zerg has been doing the same sort of basic game plan for over a year, but if they have a problem then it must be the fault of balance.
I really can't make an assessment on the metagame, balance, or the match-up, but Terran has, throughout the history of StarCraft had the most diversity in it's strategies; that's not because of me, that's not because of the Terran players talking in this thread, it's because of the guys like Mvp or MMA who have won and probably will continue to win regardless of what nerfs Blizzard inflicts upon them. They have for the history of StarCraft 2 been coming up with strategies, making new builds, and creating new ways to murder their opponents in fashions that seem (and sometimes are) OP. Similarly, Zergs and Protoss players have not come up with their own builds (at least not the ones talking in this thread) but rather they use copies of pro builds from players like MC, Stephano, NesTea, DRG, HerO, nani, Oz, or other great players.
Also the quote from the Blizzard guy in the OP makes me laugh. He's talking about how it's all about the big picture and how Terran is going to look in Heart of the Swarm, yet there are a myriad of professional StarCraft pros who play Terran and rely on this game as a source of income. Let's not worry about the game that you might release in the next year or two and lets focus on the present. Blizz does a really terrible job of balancing their attention towards the competitive crowd and the casual crowd.
Sick post.
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its surprising how much of a difference the range buff did .. however i think even if you undo it, zerg winrates will stay up. the queenbuff made zergs discover the true power of creep, so a queen heavy build probably will perform even with 3 range only.
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On June 24 2012 09:17 Holophonist wrote:Show nested quote +On June 24 2012 09:16 Shiori wrote:On June 24 2012 09:15 mememolly wrote:
too early to tell, the days of running hellions into the main to auto gg are over, you need to get over that fact
also, if the Z is building like 4-6 queens they are playing defensive, think about that There was never an auto-gg against a good Zerg. What a stupid thing to say. You would consistently see zergs lose to hellion run bys at every level of play. This is exactly why they gave the queen a buff.
To 4-6 Helions ? How ? Unless they literelly don't build ANY defense you don't lose to Helion runbys.
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On June 24 2012 09:17 Holophonist wrote:Show nested quote +On June 24 2012 09:16 Shiori wrote:On June 24 2012 09:15 mememolly wrote:
too early to tell, the days of running hellions into the main to auto gg are over, you need to get over that fact
also, if the Z is building like 4-6 queens they are playing defensive, think about that There was never an auto-gg against a good Zerg. What a stupid thing to say. You would consistently see zergs lose to hellion run bys at every level of play. This is exactly why they gave the queen a buff.
What a stupid thing to say. Talking pre-patch, no Terran should ever do that as you aren't guaranteed any drone kills (and any competent zerg won't let you get many at all, if they even allow you in) and you're giving up your map control/creep denying ability for the rest of the early game.
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On June 24 2012 09:17 Holophonist wrote:Show nested quote +On June 24 2012 09:16 Shiori wrote:On June 24 2012 09:15 mememolly wrote:
too early to tell, the days of running hellions into the main to auto gg are over, you need to get over that fact
also, if the Z is building like 4-6 queens they are playing defensive, think about that There was never an auto-gg against a good Zerg. What a stupid thing to say. You would consistently see zergs lose to hellion run bys at every level of play. This is exactly why they gave the queen a buff.
I would like to see a vod of a high level pro lose a game to a reactor-hellion runby. The role of the hellion was not to runby and kill drones. It was to contain the zerg on 2 bases, to contain creep spread, and stop the zerg from taking a 3rd. The queen buff nullifies these purposes quite easily. Im all for discussion, but can we please provide some sort of substance or proof behind a post, otherwise we can all just make things up about games that have happened in the past.
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On June 24 2012 09:19 EienShinwa wrote:Show nested quote +On June 24 2012 09:15 mememolly wrote:
too early to tell, the days of running hellions into the main to auto gg are over, you need to get over that fact
also, if the Z is building like 4-6 queens they are playing defensive, think about that Not when those 4-6 queens allow you to take a third without having any other units than drones and spread creep more than halfway across the map at 8 minutes. They are not playing defensive, they are playing GREEDY.
rines and marauders are good units to push with to deny 3rd, force units etc, just building hellions you will have problems
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On June 24 2012 09:22 mememolly wrote:Show nested quote +On June 24 2012 09:19 EienShinwa wrote:On June 24 2012 09:15 mememolly wrote:
too early to tell, the days of running hellions into the main to auto gg are over, you need to get over that fact
also, if the Z is building like 4-6 queens they are playing defensive, think about that Not when those 4-6 queens allow you to take a third without having any other units than drones and spread creep more than halfway across the map at 8 minutes. They are not playing defensive, they are playing GREEDY. rines and marauders are good units to push with to deny 3rd, force units etc, just building hellions you will have problems
Rines and Marauders would need to be proxied on big ass maps with their slow ass movement speed . Literally speedless Lings can kill and soround them on creep if spotted early enough. If the Zerg sees you moving out with an Ovie/Ling he'll build a few units kill off your slow units and returns to droning np. And afterwards you're completely fucked.
And if you wait until you have enough Helions and Bio it will already be way too late for you to do anything. Especially since you can't have Stim yet. Stimless Bio is extremely bad
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On June 24 2012 09:22 mememolly wrote:Show nested quote +On June 24 2012 09:19 EienShinwa wrote:On June 24 2012 09:15 mememolly wrote:
too early to tell, the days of running hellions into the main to auto gg are over, you need to get over that fact
also, if the Z is building like 4-6 queens they are playing defensive, think about that Not when those 4-6 queens allow you to take a third without having any other units than drones and spread creep more than halfway across the map at 8 minutes. They are not playing defensive, they are playing GREEDY. rines and marauders are good units to push with to deny 3rd, force units etc, just building hellions you will have problems
Just to have them make 30 speedlings as soon as they see your marines and marauders move out of your base? This is the problem the insanely fast creep spread(due to queen spam) and overlord speed gave to TvZ. The overlord speed would have been sufficient, and needed, but the queen buff is just unreasonable.
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EPT
