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This thread is going nowhere and I'm tired of dealing with it. Either drop the personal attacks and whining and replace it with actual discussion or it'll be closed.
12:09 KST Page 98 |
On June 24 2012 08:29 Crookie wrote:Show nested quote +On June 24 2012 08:18 s3rp wrote:On June 24 2012 08:13 Crookie wrote:On June 24 2012 08:04 s3rp wrote:On June 24 2012 07:52 Crookie wrote:
Hey guys... I just wanted to talk about something really quick.
I would like to go ahead and state that I play zerg at mid-high masters and I also have a terran and protoss accout at low masters. Although I do cannot offer specifics, I think we need to change the discussion here a little bit.
I will be the first one to tell you that ZvT is very zerg favored right now. However, I think that this thread has turned into nothing but people complaining about the matchup instead of doing anything about it. Yes, I realize that zerg is strong. Yes I realize queens let zergs get tons of drones and set them up great for lategame. Yes I agree that in the current meta, zergs late-game is much stronger than terrans in most situations. These are all things that have been established. There is litterally no point to have people come in here and just state these facts over and over again. I have been following this thread since the beginning, and very few posts have actually talked about a change in current terran playstyle.
In ZvP, protoss complained about the 4 range roach for a while, and had a tough time forge expanding. When the infestor was buffed, protoss complained that mass blink stalker no longer worked against zerg, who began switching to ling/infestor instead of roach hydra. The fact that patches can greatly change the normal path of a game is well established. Yes, we realized that pre-patch strategies no longer work post-patch.
Now that I have this established, I would like to ask everyone who posts to offer something to the discussion more than just "wow queens too stronk," or "zerg so op, queens make all hellion openers useless".
I would also like to offer a suggestion to hopefully get something started. Please note, I am a much higher level zerg than I am terran, but I am just offering ideas:
What we have established:
-New queen buff has allowed zerg to power drones and take a quick third base, relying on a 6 queen defence.
-Zergs will now open with no gas untill they take a third base, around 6 minutes
-Hellions are no longer a good opener, as zergs can still spread creep, protect drones, and take a fast 3rd base (defeating the main uses of the hellion opener).
-As a side effect of mass queens, zergs get absurd creep spead.
-With this early eco advantage, zergs can easily go infestor ultra/brood which easily defeats the current terran meta (marine + tank)
I think with this new level of creepspread, it is no longer effective to scan for creep tumors. They can be replaced so easily that I think it is almost necessary to make a raven in order to remove creep. One Idea that I can think of is maybe opening 1 rax double expand (make sure to sac scv/scan for gas to make sure no roach/bling attacks are incoming) and maybe trying to get a fast raven to try to keep under control. With ling speed so late, hellions or marines will be free to cross the map safely to remove creep, pick off queens, etc. Remember that by going mass queen, zergs give up map control. I think that if you continue to produce ravens that early, late game they will have alot of energy and, if spread properly to avoid fungals, HSM can be very effective against broods, while the PDD is very good against corrupters (to assist in winning air battle). I also think mech + ravens (maybe even a few ghost for emp) is still very strong lategame, no matter the zerg composition (also remember that you can spend extra minerals on mass orbital so that you can sac SCV to get stronger army). I think maybe this should be experimented with in order to combat the zerg's strong lategame.
Sorry for the long post, but I feel that it is very useless to keep complaining to eachother that zerg is strong in the current meta. Maybe my idea is awful, but atleast we can do something more productive that just complaining. Blizzard does not read TL (or, atleast not all 70 pages of this thread) and I doubt they would nerf zerg just because of this thread. Couple of things about this is 1.) Bio Pressure without Stim will only work with proxied rax with how slow Bio is ( its just 2.25 even slow Lings offcreep are considerably faster ) on just about every Map 2.) Ravens early mean later tanks/medivacs and are useless IF he goes anything but Air 3.) Fungal Growth will put but big wrench into anything involving Raven considering 6 range against 9.. 4.) Mech = 3 Bases stuck and no chance to take more then 3 Bases while also not beeing able to take out Zergbases because you have to play deathballstyle with your 1.975-2.25 speed army . I did experiment with this it is much worse than the now worse strats of old. Mech is not that good. Ravens are frustratingly BAD. Ok, fair enough. One thing I would like to state is that maybe bio is not viable anymore (atleast at this point). I feel like the maxed mech army is much much stronger, and how things are going in TvZ right now, it seems that playing for the late game is the only viable option. If you open bio, and want to have a strong late game, you will be stuck with a bunch of barracks and useless bio upgrades. I am suggesting that maybe terrans open hellions + raven to clear creep early game. Even slow lings on creep cant touch the hellions, and both the hellions and raven will complement your lategame army. With fungal growth + ravens, if you spread you ravens well enough (similar to mutas in a ZvZ), it will take waaaay too many fungals to lock down ALL the ravens, and it only takes 2 or 3 HSM to destroy broodlords. And if they try to focus the ravens with corruptors, the ravens can still PDD while fungaled to protect them long enough for vikings + thors to kill them. As I said before, I do not expect this to be the solution to all terran's TvZ problems, but I am just hoping to get the ball rolling in respect to new theorycrafting. It is quite obvious that the current terran strategies from pre-patch do not work anymore, and I think a drastic change will need to take effect. 1. I don't see how Raven Helion does anything to an opening with 4 Queens on creep duty ..... I mean you see the tumors but you'll lose alot of Helion/Raven life for what a bit of Energy ? Even if you don't need to scan creep turmors can be replanted so fast. 2. 2-3 HSM's kill clumped Broodlords. Even slightly spread ones need at least 5-6 . The splash is very small but Zerg and Toss players don't know that because it rarely gets used ( try in in Unittester you'll be seriously underwhelmed by HSM ) PDD can stop queen auto-attack, and if you are going mech, hellions are essentially free (while gas will be your limiting factor in terms of unit production). I dont think hellion/raven can outright kill the queens (although possible), but it atleast offers some potential option to try to control the creep. While I agree that HSM is not very strong against spread units, It can still do a decent amount of damage to them, and mainly, it can help your vikings beat the corruptors outright. While fungals may be a problem, I think even 2-3 ghosts could offer some help. Also, spreading you own air units will help alot. And even though spreading broodlords can help vs HSM, its better than letting the zerg ball up and a-move. Similar to in PvZ, the mothership is not near as effective against broods if they are spread out, but the mothership does 2 things: 1. If the zerg does slip up on their micro for 1 seconds, their entire army is gone and the game is over. 2. It forces to zerg to split up their broods, which makes it a little bit more managable to take them out. Also remember that if you produce the ravens so early in the game, by the lategame, they will all be full on energy. Even if HSM doesnt do insane amounts of damage, you will have a shitton of them (plus PDD, which is very underrated against late game zerg)
Look any good Zerg will scout you sooner or later or will once he sees a suspect amount of Helions build Roaches and after that you can't deny creep anymore. This is a big reason why with Mech you will fight on creep because you can't really deny it against Roaches. Btw Adding Ghosts to a Mech + Ravens ( and Upgrades ) composition requires a number of bases mech can never take and defend with an army with mostly tanks/thors. PF's don't mean anything when the opponent has enough Roaches ( and he will if you mech ) to 2 shot your PF. Mech is at best a 3 Base All-In on 90% of the Maps with which you have to hit with before Broodlords.
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On June 24 2012 08:32 xrapture wrote:
I don't understand why some people are arguing in favor of balance.
Almost EVERY pro Terran-- yea that's right pro not random poster on TL-- says the matchup became completely imbalanced after the Queen buff.
Hell, DRG, Catz, idra, and Stephano even say Z has the advantage-- DRG even laughed in an interview and said he wants a group with 3 Terrans.
MKP said his winrate in tvz went from 60% to 10%. Ryung says he can't even beat NA Zergs. If you are INSANELY better than your opponent, you should win.
No bullshit about "metagame" should even come into discussion. Ryung should roll Ostojiy 10 times in a row, but this patch has really made it impossible for Terran to take advantage of being more skilled because literally nothing in the game can punish mass queen/drone 3 base.
Hell, watch Dimaga vs Brat-ok at Dreamhack. 9 Queens, 3 base, 80 drones at 8:30. That should NOT be standard or possible.
This is exactly what I'm talking about. I have not once seen any terrans try anything besides the old pre-patch build.
Yes, just like with nearly ever single other buff, the matchup becomes imbalanced for a while.
Newsflash: complaining that terran sucks on the forums will do absolutly nothing to help change the fact. I play zerg and I will tell you right now that it is very obvious that TvZ is imba right now. You are not the first one to post this. Infact, there are 70 pages already of people complaining about the matchup. Maybe instead of pointless complaining, we try to progress and actually start doing something other than wasting your time on the forums.
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On June 24 2012 08:35 s3rp wrote:Show nested quote +On June 24 2012 08:29 Crookie wrote:On June 24 2012 08:18 s3rp wrote:On June 24 2012 08:13 Crookie wrote:On June 24 2012 08:04 s3rp wrote:On June 24 2012 07:52 Crookie wrote:
Hey guys... I just wanted to talk about something really quick.
I would like to go ahead and state that I play zerg at mid-high masters and I also have a terran and protoss accout at low masters. Although I do cannot offer specifics, I think we need to change the discussion here a little bit.
I will be the first one to tell you that ZvT is very zerg favored right now. However, I think that this thread has turned into nothing but people complaining about the matchup instead of doing anything about it. Yes, I realize that zerg is strong. Yes I realize queens let zergs get tons of drones and set them up great for lategame. Yes I agree that in the current meta, zergs late-game is much stronger than terrans in most situations. These are all things that have been established. There is litterally no point to have people come in here and just state these facts over and over again. I have been following this thread since the beginning, and very few posts have actually talked about a change in current terran playstyle.
In ZvP, protoss complained about the 4 range roach for a while, and had a tough time forge expanding. When the infestor was buffed, protoss complained that mass blink stalker no longer worked against zerg, who began switching to ling/infestor instead of roach hydra. The fact that patches can greatly change the normal path of a game is well established. Yes, we realized that pre-patch strategies no longer work post-patch.
Now that I have this established, I would like to ask everyone who posts to offer something to the discussion more than just "wow queens too stronk," or "zerg so op, queens make all hellion openers useless".
I would also like to offer a suggestion to hopefully get something started. Please note, I am a much higher level zerg than I am terran, but I am just offering ideas:
What we have established:
-New queen buff has allowed zerg to power drones and take a quick third base, relying on a 6 queen defence.
-Zergs will now open with no gas untill they take a third base, around 6 minutes
-Hellions are no longer a good opener, as zergs can still spread creep, protect drones, and take a fast 3rd base (defeating the main uses of the hellion opener).
-As a side effect of mass queens, zergs get absurd creep spead.
-With this early eco advantage, zergs can easily go infestor ultra/brood which easily defeats the current terran meta (marine + tank)
I think with this new level of creepspread, it is no longer effective to scan for creep tumors. They can be replaced so easily that I think it is almost necessary to make a raven in order to remove creep. One Idea that I can think of is maybe opening 1 rax double expand (make sure to sac scv/scan for gas to make sure no roach/bling attacks are incoming) and maybe trying to get a fast raven to try to keep under control. With ling speed so late, hellions or marines will be free to cross the map safely to remove creep, pick off queens, etc. Remember that by going mass queen, zergs give up map control. I think that if you continue to produce ravens that early, late game they will have alot of energy and, if spread properly to avoid fungals, HSM can be very effective against broods, while the PDD is very good against corrupters (to assist in winning air battle). I also think mech + ravens (maybe even a few ghost for emp) is still very strong lategame, no matter the zerg composition (also remember that you can spend extra minerals on mass orbital so that you can sac SCV to get stronger army). I think maybe this should be experimented with in order to combat the zerg's strong lategame.
Sorry for the long post, but I feel that it is very useless to keep complaining to eachother that zerg is strong in the current meta. Maybe my idea is awful, but atleast we can do something more productive that just complaining. Blizzard does not read TL (or, atleast not all 70 pages of this thread) and I doubt they would nerf zerg just because of this thread. Couple of things about this is 1.) Bio Pressure without Stim will only work with proxied rax with how slow Bio is ( its just 2.25 even slow Lings offcreep are considerably faster ) on just about every Map 2.) Ravens early mean later tanks/medivacs and are useless IF he goes anything but Air 3.) Fungal Growth will put but big wrench into anything involving Raven considering 6 range against 9.. 4.) Mech = 3 Bases stuck and no chance to take more then 3 Bases while also not beeing able to take out Zergbases because you have to play deathballstyle with your 1.975-2.25 speed army . I did experiment with this it is much worse than the now worse strats of old. Mech is not that good. Ravens are frustratingly BAD. Ok, fair enough. One thing I would like to state is that maybe bio is not viable anymore (atleast at this point). I feel like the maxed mech army is much much stronger, and how things are going in TvZ right now, it seems that playing for the late game is the only viable option. If you open bio, and want to have a strong late game, you will be stuck with a bunch of barracks and useless bio upgrades. I am suggesting that maybe terrans open hellions + raven to clear creep early game. Even slow lings on creep cant touch the hellions, and both the hellions and raven will complement your lategame army. With fungal growth + ravens, if you spread you ravens well enough (similar to mutas in a ZvZ), it will take waaaay too many fungals to lock down ALL the ravens, and it only takes 2 or 3 HSM to destroy broodlords. And if they try to focus the ravens with corruptors, the ravens can still PDD while fungaled to protect them long enough for vikings + thors to kill them. As I said before, I do not expect this to be the solution to all terran's TvZ problems, but I am just hoping to get the ball rolling in respect to new theorycrafting. It is quite obvious that the current terran strategies from pre-patch do not work anymore, and I think a drastic change will need to take effect. 1. I don't see how Raven Helion does anything to an opening with 4 Queens on creep duty ..... I mean you see the tumors but you'll lose alot of Helion/Raven life for what a bit of Energy ? Even if you don't need to scan creep turmors can be replanted so fast. 2. 2-3 HSM's kill clumped Broodlords. Even slightly spread ones need at least 5-6 . The splash is very small but Zerg and Toss players don't know that because it rarely gets used ( try in in Unittester you'll be seriously underwhelmed by HSM ) PDD can stop queen auto-attack, and if you are going mech, hellions are essentially free (while gas will be your limiting factor in terms of unit production). I dont think hellion/raven can outright kill the queens (although possible), but it atleast offers some potential option to try to control the creep. While I agree that HSM is not very strong against spread units, It can still do a decent amount of damage to them, and mainly, it can help your vikings beat the corruptors outright. While fungals may be a problem, I think even 2-3 ghosts could offer some help. Also, spreading you own air units will help alot. And even though spreading broodlords can help vs HSM, its better than letting the zerg ball up and a-move. Similar to in PvZ, the mothership is not near as effective against broods if they are spread out, but the mothership does 2 things: 1. If the zerg does slip up on their micro for 1 seconds, their entire army is gone and the game is over. 2. It forces to zerg to split up their broods, which makes it a little bit more managable to take them out. Also remember that if you produce the ravens so early in the game, by the lategame, they will all be full on energy. Even if HSM doesnt do insane amounts of damage, you will have a shitton of them (plus PDD, which is very underrated against late game zerg) Look any good Zerg will scout you sooner or later or will once he sees a suspect amount of Helions build Roaches and after that you can't deny creep anymore. This is a big reason why with Mech you will fight on creep because you can't really deny it against Roaches. Btw Adding Ghosts to a Mech + Ravens composition requires a number of bases mech can never take and defend. PF don't mean anything when the opponent has enough Roaches ( and he will if you mech ) to 2 shot your PF. Mechl is at best a 3 Base All-In of 90% of the Maps with which you have to hit before Broodlords.
Ok, so the zerg has to waste money on a roach warren and build roaches. Atleast thats better than making 70 drones before having to make any units besides queens. I dont see a problem with sitting on 3 bases for a while, then slowly pushing across the map and taking PFs for 4ths and 5ths. Youd be suprised how difficult it is for zergs to contend with a mech deathball with vikings + a few ghosts/ravens. Sensor towers and PFs are incredible for delaying/defending if need be.
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On June 24 2012 08:41 Crookie wrote:Show nested quote +On June 24 2012 08:35 s3rp wrote:On June 24 2012 08:29 Crookie wrote:On June 24 2012 08:18 s3rp wrote:On June 24 2012 08:13 Crookie wrote:On June 24 2012 08:04 s3rp wrote:On June 24 2012 07:52 Crookie wrote:
Hey guys... I just wanted to talk about something really quick.
I would like to go ahead and state that I play zerg at mid-high masters and I also have a terran and protoss accout at low masters. Although I do cannot offer specifics, I think we need to change the discussion here a little bit.
I will be the first one to tell you that ZvT is very zerg favored right now. However, I think that this thread has turned into nothing but people complaining about the matchup instead of doing anything about it. Yes, I realize that zerg is strong. Yes I realize queens let zergs get tons of drones and set them up great for lategame. Yes I agree that in the current meta, zergs late-game is much stronger than terrans in most situations. These are all things that have been established. There is litterally no point to have people come in here and just state these facts over and over again. I have been following this thread since the beginning, and very few posts have actually talked about a change in current terran playstyle.
In ZvP, protoss complained about the 4 range roach for a while, and had a tough time forge expanding. When the infestor was buffed, protoss complained that mass blink stalker no longer worked against zerg, who began switching to ling/infestor instead of roach hydra. The fact that patches can greatly change the normal path of a game is well established. Yes, we realized that pre-patch strategies no longer work post-patch.
Now that I have this established, I would like to ask everyone who posts to offer something to the discussion more than just "wow queens too stronk," or "zerg so op, queens make all hellion openers useless".
I would also like to offer a suggestion to hopefully get something started. Please note, I am a much higher level zerg than I am terran, but I am just offering ideas:
What we have established:
-New queen buff has allowed zerg to power drones and take a quick third base, relying on a 6 queen defence.
-Zergs will now open with no gas untill they take a third base, around 6 minutes
-Hellions are no longer a good opener, as zergs can still spread creep, protect drones, and take a fast 3rd base (defeating the main uses of the hellion opener).
-As a side effect of mass queens, zergs get absurd creep spead.
-With this early eco advantage, zergs can easily go infestor ultra/brood which easily defeats the current terran meta (marine + tank)
I think with this new level of creepspread, it is no longer effective to scan for creep tumors. They can be replaced so easily that I think it is almost necessary to make a raven in order to remove creep. One Idea that I can think of is maybe opening 1 rax double expand (make sure to sac scv/scan for gas to make sure no roach/bling attacks are incoming) and maybe trying to get a fast raven to try to keep under control. With ling speed so late, hellions or marines will be free to cross the map safely to remove creep, pick off queens, etc. Remember that by going mass queen, zergs give up map control. I think that if you continue to produce ravens that early, late game they will have alot of energy and, if spread properly to avoid fungals, HSM can be very effective against broods, while the PDD is very good against corrupters (to assist in winning air battle). I also think mech + ravens (maybe even a few ghost for emp) is still very strong lategame, no matter the zerg composition (also remember that you can spend extra minerals on mass orbital so that you can sac SCV to get stronger army). I think maybe this should be experimented with in order to combat the zerg's strong lategame.
Sorry for the long post, but I feel that it is very useless to keep complaining to eachother that zerg is strong in the current meta. Maybe my idea is awful, but atleast we can do something more productive that just complaining. Blizzard does not read TL (or, atleast not all 70 pages of this thread) and I doubt they would nerf zerg just because of this thread. Couple of things about this is 1.) Bio Pressure without Stim will only work with proxied rax with how slow Bio is ( its just 2.25 even slow Lings offcreep are considerably faster ) on just about every Map 2.) Ravens early mean later tanks/medivacs and are useless IF he goes anything but Air 3.) Fungal Growth will put but big wrench into anything involving Raven considering 6 range against 9.. 4.) Mech = 3 Bases stuck and no chance to take more then 3 Bases while also not beeing able to take out Zergbases because you have to play deathballstyle with your 1.975-2.25 speed army . I did experiment with this it is much worse than the now worse strats of old. Mech is not that good. Ravens are frustratingly BAD. Ok, fair enough. One thing I would like to state is that maybe bio is not viable anymore (atleast at this point). I feel like the maxed mech army is much much stronger, and how things are going in TvZ right now, it seems that playing for the late game is the only viable option. If you open bio, and want to have a strong late game, you will be stuck with a bunch of barracks and useless bio upgrades. I am suggesting that maybe terrans open hellions + raven to clear creep early game. Even slow lings on creep cant touch the hellions, and both the hellions and raven will complement your lategame army. With fungal growth + ravens, if you spread you ravens well enough (similar to mutas in a ZvZ), it will take waaaay too many fungals to lock down ALL the ravens, and it only takes 2 or 3 HSM to destroy broodlords. And if they try to focus the ravens with corruptors, the ravens can still PDD while fungaled to protect them long enough for vikings + thors to kill them. As I said before, I do not expect this to be the solution to all terran's TvZ problems, but I am just hoping to get the ball rolling in respect to new theorycrafting. It is quite obvious that the current terran strategies from pre-patch do not work anymore, and I think a drastic change will need to take effect. 1. I don't see how Raven Helion does anything to an opening with 4 Queens on creep duty ..... I mean you see the tumors but you'll lose alot of Helion/Raven life for what a bit of Energy ? Even if you don't need to scan creep turmors can be replanted so fast. 2. 2-3 HSM's kill clumped Broodlords. Even slightly spread ones need at least 5-6 . The splash is very small but Zerg and Toss players don't know that because it rarely gets used ( try in in Unittester you'll be seriously underwhelmed by HSM ) PDD can stop queen auto-attack, and if you are going mech, hellions are essentially free (while gas will be your limiting factor in terms of unit production). I dont think hellion/raven can outright kill the queens (although possible), but it atleast offers some potential option to try to control the creep. While I agree that HSM is not very strong against spread units, It can still do a decent amount of damage to them, and mainly, it can help your vikings beat the corruptors outright. While fungals may be a problem, I think even 2-3 ghosts could offer some help. Also, spreading you own air units will help alot. And even though spreading broodlords can help vs HSM, its better than letting the zerg ball up and a-move. Similar to in PvZ, the mothership is not near as effective against broods if they are spread out, but the mothership does 2 things: 1. If the zerg does slip up on their micro for 1 seconds, their entire army is gone and the game is over. 2. It forces to zerg to split up their broods, which makes it a little bit more managable to take them out. Also remember that if you produce the ravens so early in the game, by the lategame, they will all be full on energy. Even if HSM doesnt do insane amounts of damage, you will have a shitton of them (plus PDD, which is very underrated against late game zerg) Look any good Zerg will scout you sooner or later or will once he sees a suspect amount of Helions build Roaches and after that you can't deny creep anymore. This is a big reason why with Mech you will fight on creep because you can't really deny it against Roaches. Btw Adding Ghosts to a Mech + Ravens composition requires a number of bases mech can never take and defend. PF don't mean anything when the opponent has enough Roaches ( and he will if you mech ) to 2 shot your PF. Mechl is at best a 3 Base All-In of 90% of the Maps with which you have to hit before Broodlords. Ok, so the zerg has to waste money on a roach warren and build roaches. Atleast thats better than making 70 drones besides making something other than a queen to defend. I dont see a problem with sitting on 3 bases for a while, then slowly pushing across the map and taking PFs for 4ths and 5ths. Youd be suprised how difficult it is for zergs to contend with a mech deathball with vikings + a few ghosts/ravens. Sensor towers and PFs are incredible for delaying/defending if need be.
Against Mech roaches are not wasted money they actually kill any smaller mech army like no tomorow .
By the time Mech has an army big enough to move out to take a fourth with 150+ Supply the Zerg will have enough Bases and almost all the tech he needs which mean IF you take your 4th and 5th he builds 10+ Broodlords ( which is something you cannot kill at that point ) and attacks you . You have to move out with Mech before he has Broods or you lose.
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On June 24 2012 08:37 Crookie wrote:Show nested quote +On June 24 2012 08:32 xrapture wrote:
I don't understand why some people are arguing in favor of balance.
Almost EVERY pro Terran-- yea that's right pro not random poster on TL-- says the matchup became completely imbalanced after the Queen buff.
Hell, DRG, Catz, idra, and Stephano even say Z has the advantage-- DRG even laughed in an interview and said he wants a group with 3 Terrans.
MKP said his winrate in tvz went from 60% to 10%. Ryung says he can't even beat NA Zergs. If you are INSANELY better than your opponent, you should win.
No bullshit about "metagame" should even come into discussion. Ryung should roll Ostojiy 10 times in a row, but this patch has really made it impossible for Terran to take advantage of being more skilled because literally nothing in the game can punish mass queen/drone 3 base.
Hell, watch Dimaga vs Brat-ok at Dreamhack. 9 Queens, 3 base, 80 drones at 8:30. That should NOT be standard or possible. I have not once seen any terrans try anything besides the old pre-patch build.
Open your eyes dude. All I'm seeing is failed attempts at new builds/timings from Terrans.
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I was a Masters Terran before I stopped playing for a while, but since I quit Terran has gone from the evil, OP race to the victims of imbalance (frankly I kind of like it, haha). The thing that really bugs me are the Zerg and Protoss players claiming "Oh, well Terran should just do something else." Let's have a walk down memory lane with the Terran race and Blizzard's nerfs:
1. Way, way back, Proxy Raxs (I'm talking BBS, not your standard SBB that you see nowadays) were too strong. Blizzard's response: You need a Depot to build a Barracks.
2. MorroW beats IdrA with Reapers. Blizzard's reponse: Reapers no longer useable outside of a single one for scouting purposes.
3. Jump to TvP: ThorZaIN beats MC with Thors. Blizzard's response: inbetween semi-finals and finals (bit hasty, don't you think...), Thors get nerfed, basically making Thor-based mech unplayable as anything other than a cheese.
4. Back to TvZ: SlayerS Terrans take MLG by force with the Blue Flame Hellion build. IdrA cries. Blizzard nerfs Blue Flame.
5. Mvp and MMA still winning; Barracks buildtime increased by 5 seconds.
6. Mvp sniped literally everything Zerg had. Blizzard makes Ghosts pretty worthless outside of TvP. Qxc cries because they don't work in his TvT cheeses. Poor Qxc, I still love you.
7. Hellions too strong, buff Queen.
(there are probably a few more instances of huge changes, but these were certainly the most memorable in my eyes).
I haven't really gotten a chance to actually play TvZ since the patch, but saying that Terran has not adapted is a ridiculous statement. What are we supposed to do? Anytime a player wins in a major tournament with anything other than MMM, Tanks, or When Protoss players were complaining about balance and half of them had never even built a Warp Prism or tried High Templar tech, that sort of argument actually made sense. And don't Zerg players almost always open with the exact same build, then eventually get infestors, and eventually transition into either Broods or Ultras, later getting the other if the first wave doesn't work. Zerg has been doing the same sort of basic game plan for over a year, but if they have a problem then it must be the fault of balance.
I really can't make an assessment on the metagame, balance, or the match-up, but Terran has, throughout the history of StarCraft had the most diversity in it's strategies; that's not because of me, that's not because of the Terran players talking in this thread, it's because of the guys like Mvp or MMA who have won and probably will continue to win regardless of what nerfs Blizzard inflicts upon them. They have for the history of StarCraft 2 been coming up with strategies, making new builds, and creating new ways to murder their opponents in fashions that seem (and sometimes are) OP. Similarly, Zergs and Protoss players have not come up with their own builds (at least not the ones talking in this thread) but rather they use copies of pro builds from players like MC, Stephano, NesTea, DRG, HerO, nani, Oz, or other great players.
Also the quote from the Blizzard guy in the OP makes me laugh. He's talking about how it's all about the big picture and how Terran is going to look in Heart of the Swarm, yet there are a myriad of professional StarCraft pros who play Terran and rely on this game as a source of income. Let's not worry about the game that you might release in the next year or two and lets focus on the present. Blizz does a really terrible job of balancing their attention towards the competitive crowd and the casual crowd.
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On June 24 2012 08:32 xrapture wrote:
. . . Almost EVERY pro Terran-- yea that's right pro not random poster on TL-- says the matchup became completely imbalanced after the Queen buff. . .
I get the impression DRG and Stephano would always say their main race was overpowered, no matter what they played. (Not to detract from your point. But seriously, right?)
As far as the rest, sure, I think lots of pros are saying Zerg are OP. But that isn't saying queen buff is OP.
Saying queen buff makes Zerg OP because it stops early Hellion harass is something that I disagree with, because I think the Hellion harass was OP to begin with - so queen buff just corrected it. (My opinion, of course.)
Saying queen buff is OP because it allows Zerg to transition to 3-4+ base late game versus and that Terran don't have a late game answer - well, that's entirely different. Oh, all right, stopping early Hellion harass allows the transition, but I think what we really have is a ZvT late game issue more than a "queen" issue.
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On June 24 2012 08:46 s3rp wrote:Show nested quote +On June 24 2012 08:41 Crookie wrote:On June 24 2012 08:35 s3rp wrote:On June 24 2012 08:29 Crookie wrote:On June 24 2012 08:18 s3rp wrote:On June 24 2012 08:13 Crookie wrote:On June 24 2012 08:04 s3rp wrote:On June 24 2012 07:52 Crookie wrote:
Hey guys... I just wanted to talk about something really quick.
I would like to go ahead and state that I play zerg at mid-high masters and I also have a terran and protoss accout at low masters. Although I do cannot offer specifics, I think we need to change the discussion here a little bit.
I will be the first one to tell you that ZvT is very zerg favored right now. However, I think that this thread has turned into nothing but people complaining about the matchup instead of doing anything about it. Yes, I realize that zerg is strong. Yes I realize queens let zergs get tons of drones and set them up great for lategame. Yes I agree that in the current meta, zergs late-game is much stronger than terrans in most situations. These are all things that have been established. There is litterally no point to have people come in here and just state these facts over and over again. I have been following this thread since the beginning, and very few posts have actually talked about a change in current terran playstyle.
In ZvP, protoss complained about the 4 range roach for a while, and had a tough time forge expanding. When the infestor was buffed, protoss complained that mass blink stalker no longer worked against zerg, who began switching to ling/infestor instead of roach hydra. The fact that patches can greatly change the normal path of a game is well established. Yes, we realized that pre-patch strategies no longer work post-patch.
Now that I have this established, I would like to ask everyone who posts to offer something to the discussion more than just "wow queens too stronk," or "zerg so op, queens make all hellion openers useless".
I would also like to offer a suggestion to hopefully get something started. Please note, I am a much higher level zerg than I am terran, but I am just offering ideas:
What we have established:
-New queen buff has allowed zerg to power drones and take a quick third base, relying on a 6 queen defence.
-Zergs will now open with no gas untill they take a third base, around 6 minutes
-Hellions are no longer a good opener, as zergs can still spread creep, protect drones, and take a fast 3rd base (defeating the main uses of the hellion opener).
-As a side effect of mass queens, zergs get absurd creep spead.
-With this early eco advantage, zergs can easily go infestor ultra/brood which easily defeats the current terran meta (marine + tank)
I think with this new level of creepspread, it is no longer effective to scan for creep tumors. They can be replaced so easily that I think it is almost necessary to make a raven in order to remove creep. One Idea that I can think of is maybe opening 1 rax double expand (make sure to sac scv/scan for gas to make sure no roach/bling attacks are incoming) and maybe trying to get a fast raven to try to keep under control. With ling speed so late, hellions or marines will be free to cross the map safely to remove creep, pick off queens, etc. Remember that by going mass queen, zergs give up map control. I think that if you continue to produce ravens that early, late game they will have alot of energy and, if spread properly to avoid fungals, HSM can be very effective against broods, while the PDD is very good against corrupters (to assist in winning air battle). I also think mech + ravens (maybe even a few ghost for emp) is still very strong lategame, no matter the zerg composition (also remember that you can spend extra minerals on mass orbital so that you can sac SCV to get stronger army). I think maybe this should be experimented with in order to combat the zerg's strong lategame.
Sorry for the long post, but I feel that it is very useless to keep complaining to eachother that zerg is strong in the current meta. Maybe my idea is awful, but atleast we can do something more productive that just complaining. Blizzard does not read TL (or, atleast not all 70 pages of this thread) and I doubt they would nerf zerg just because of this thread. Couple of things about this is 1.) Bio Pressure without Stim will only work with proxied rax with how slow Bio is ( its just 2.25 even slow Lings offcreep are considerably faster ) on just about every Map 2.) Ravens early mean later tanks/medivacs and are useless IF he goes anything but Air 3.) Fungal Growth will put but big wrench into anything involving Raven considering 6 range against 9.. 4.) Mech = 3 Bases stuck and no chance to take more then 3 Bases while also not beeing able to take out Zergbases because you have to play deathballstyle with your 1.975-2.25 speed army . I did experiment with this it is much worse than the now worse strats of old. Mech is not that good. Ravens are frustratingly BAD. Ok, fair enough. One thing I would like to state is that maybe bio is not viable anymore (atleast at this point). I feel like the maxed mech army is much much stronger, and how things are going in TvZ right now, it seems that playing for the late game is the only viable option. If you open bio, and want to have a strong late game, you will be stuck with a bunch of barracks and useless bio upgrades. I am suggesting that maybe terrans open hellions + raven to clear creep early game. Even slow lings on creep cant touch the hellions, and both the hellions and raven will complement your lategame army. With fungal growth + ravens, if you spread you ravens well enough (similar to mutas in a ZvZ), it will take waaaay too many fungals to lock down ALL the ravens, and it only takes 2 or 3 HSM to destroy broodlords. And if they try to focus the ravens with corruptors, the ravens can still PDD while fungaled to protect them long enough for vikings + thors to kill them. As I said before, I do not expect this to be the solution to all terran's TvZ problems, but I am just hoping to get the ball rolling in respect to new theorycrafting. It is quite obvious that the current terran strategies from pre-patch do not work anymore, and I think a drastic change will need to take effect. 1. I don't see how Raven Helion does anything to an opening with 4 Queens on creep duty ..... I mean you see the tumors but you'll lose alot of Helion/Raven life for what a bit of Energy ? Even if you don't need to scan creep turmors can be replanted so fast. 2. 2-3 HSM's kill clumped Broodlords. Even slightly spread ones need at least 5-6 . The splash is very small but Zerg and Toss players don't know that because it rarely gets used ( try in in Unittester you'll be seriously underwhelmed by HSM ) PDD can stop queen auto-attack, and if you are going mech, hellions are essentially free (while gas will be your limiting factor in terms of unit production). I dont think hellion/raven can outright kill the queens (although possible), but it atleast offers some potential option to try to control the creep. While I agree that HSM is not very strong against spread units, It can still do a decent amount of damage to them, and mainly, it can help your vikings beat the corruptors outright. While fungals may be a problem, I think even 2-3 ghosts could offer some help. Also, spreading you own air units will help alot. And even though spreading broodlords can help vs HSM, its better than letting the zerg ball up and a-move. Similar to in PvZ, the mothership is not near as effective against broods if they are spread out, but the mothership does 2 things: 1. If the zerg does slip up on their micro for 1 seconds, their entire army is gone and the game is over. 2. It forces to zerg to split up their broods, which makes it a little bit more managable to take them out. Also remember that if you produce the ravens so early in the game, by the lategame, they will all be full on energy. Even if HSM doesnt do insane amounts of damage, you will have a shitton of them (plus PDD, which is very underrated against late game zerg) Look any good Zerg will scout you sooner or later or will once he sees a suspect amount of Helions build Roaches and after that you can't deny creep anymore. This is a big reason why with Mech you will fight on creep because you can't really deny it against Roaches. Btw Adding Ghosts to a Mech + Ravens composition requires a number of bases mech can never take and defend. PF don't mean anything when the opponent has enough Roaches ( and he will if you mech ) to 2 shot your PF. Mechl is at best a 3 Base All-In of 90% of the Maps with which you have to hit before Broodlords. Ok, so the zerg has to waste money on a roach warren and build roaches. Atleast thats better than making 70 drones besides making something other than a queen to defend. I dont see a problem with sitting on 3 bases for a while, then slowly pushing across the map and taking PFs for 4ths and 5ths. Youd be suprised how difficult it is for zergs to contend with a mech deathball with vikings + a few ghosts/ravens. Sensor towers and PFs are incredible for delaying/defending if need be. Against Mech roaches are not wasted money they actually kill any smaller mech army like no tomorow . By the time Mech has an army big enough to move out with 150+ Supply the Zerg will have enough Bases and almost all the tech he needs which mean IF you take your 4th and 5th he builds 10 Broodlords ( which is something you cannot kill at that point ) . You have to move out with Mech before he has Broods or you lose.
Even though the roaches might be useful lategame, he will have to push a halt on drone production for a little bit. What Im trying to say is, he will have to stop powering drones or else he will take damage. And if we are playing for the late game, roaches will not be the most helpful use of supply. You should not be moving out with only 150 supply, and I would suggest waiting until maxed. If the zerg has 80-90 drones and you only need around 30-50 scvs (because of mules), you will still have a much greater army supply. With a good amount of thors + vikings + ravens, broodlords are not an auto-win against mech.
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On June 24 2012 08:46 Sroobz wrote:Show nested quote +On June 24 2012 08:37 Crookie wrote:On June 24 2012 08:32 xrapture wrote:
I don't understand why some people are arguing in favor of balance.
Almost EVERY pro Terran-- yea that's right pro not random poster on TL-- says the matchup became completely imbalanced after the Queen buff.
Hell, DRG, Catz, idra, and Stephano even say Z has the advantage-- DRG even laughed in an interview and said he wants a group with 3 Terrans.
MKP said his winrate in tvz went from 60% to 10%. Ryung says he can't even beat NA Zergs. If you are INSANELY better than your opponent, you should win.
No bullshit about "metagame" should even come into discussion. Ryung should roll Ostojiy 10 times in a row, but this patch has really made it impossible for Terran to take advantage of being more skilled because literally nothing in the game can punish mass queen/drone 3 base.
Hell, watch Dimaga vs Brat-ok at Dreamhack. 9 Queens, 3 base, 80 drones at 8:30. That should NOT be standard or possible. I have not once seen any terrans try anything besides the old pre-patch build. Open your eyes dude. All I'm seeing is failed attempts at new builds/timings from Terrans.
Maybe I have just missed the games. Do you happen to have the links to any vods, perhaps? I would like to see the new builds. Maybe the answer is to not try to kill the zerg early, and just know that if he is going mass queen, he will not be able to put on any pressure. This allows you to play greedily.
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On June 24 2012 08:26 dde wrote:Show nested quote +On June 24 2012 08:21 Snowbear wrote:
Am I the only terran losing a lot of fights? I max out, move out, and they crush my composition with basicly anything...
happens all the time to me doesnt matter any point in the game i cant do anything :D
But how does this come? Blizzard never buffed their army.
I am really not kidding that I outmacro 80% of my zerg opponents (like 20 supply ahead or just even) (high master terran). Then I move out at 13:30 with 170 supply and 2-2, and then there are 2 options:
- the zerg is an agressive one, and 1a's over my army --> best case scenario is that we both lose our army, but most of the time they win the fight.
- the zerg is an ultra zerg, and makes me slowpush. By the time I reached their third, they roll me with infestor, ling bling ultra. 200/200 and I just die.
I spread my tanks vertically, I split my units.
I really want to hear other terrans their opinion about this, because atm I am clueless, I really don't see it.
I have no problem to trade even, but not with a race that:
1) has the best macro options
2) has the best units
3) has the best eco
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On June 24 2012 08:37 Crookie wrote:Show nested quote +On June 24 2012 08:32 xrapture wrote:
I don't understand why some people are arguing in favor of balance.
Almost EVERY pro Terran-- yea that's right pro not random poster on TL-- says the matchup became completely imbalanced after the Queen buff.
Hell, DRG, Catz, idra, and Stephano even say Z has the advantage-- DRG even laughed in an interview and said he wants a group with 3 Terrans.
MKP said his winrate in tvz went from 60% to 10%. Ryung says he can't even beat NA Zergs. If you are INSANELY better than your opponent, you should win.
No bullshit about "metagame" should even come into discussion. Ryung should roll Ostojiy 10 times in a row, but this patch has really made it impossible for Terran to take advantage of being more skilled because literally nothing in the game can punish mass queen/drone 3 base.
Hell, watch Dimaga vs Brat-ok at Dreamhack. 9 Queens, 3 base, 80 drones at 8:30. That should NOT be standard or possible. Yes, just like with nearly ever single other buff, the matchup becomes imbalanced for a while. .
Have you seen anything of this scale before? I certainly haven't. I do remember people crying and whining a lot when some of the previous patch contents were released to the public, but once those patches actually hit, none of them actually changed a match up balance this drastically. Those complaints came mostly just before and just after each of the patches went live. I have not seen pretty much every pro and casual players complaining about a patch to this extent even over a month after a patch went through.
That is what is rather unique about this patch. Before this patch actually hit and people saw the contents, most people were going "Uh what? I don't think that was needed." The majority were not saying "Oh god, my race is over". However, once they started playing after the patch, the whine level shot up through the roof and only got worse over the past few weeks.
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On June 24 2012 08:18 s3rp wrote:Show nested quote +On June 24 2012 08:13 Crookie wrote:On June 24 2012 08:04 s3rp wrote:On June 24 2012 07:52 Crookie wrote:
Hey guys... I just wanted to talk about something really quick.
I would like to go ahead and state that I play zerg at mid-high masters and I also have a terran and protoss accout at low masters. Although I do cannot offer specifics, I think we need to change the discussion here a little bit.
I will be the first one to tell you that ZvT is very zerg favored right now. However, I think that this thread has turned into nothing but people complaining about the matchup instead of doing anything about it. Yes, I realize that zerg is strong. Yes I realize queens let zergs get tons of drones and set them up great for lategame. Yes I agree that in the current meta, zergs late-game is much stronger than terrans in most situations. These are all things that have been established. There is litterally no point to have people come in here and just state these facts over and over again. I have been following this thread since the beginning, and very few posts have actually talked about a change in current terran playstyle.
In ZvP, protoss complained about the 4 range roach for a while, and had a tough time forge expanding. When the infestor was buffed, protoss complained that mass blink stalker no longer worked against zerg, who began switching to ling/infestor instead of roach hydra. The fact that patches can greatly change the normal path of a game is well established. Yes, we realized that pre-patch strategies no longer work post-patch.
Now that I have this established, I would like to ask everyone who posts to offer something to the discussion more than just "wow queens too stronk," or "zerg so op, queens make all hellion openers useless".
I would also like to offer a suggestion to hopefully get something started. Please note, I am a much higher level zerg than I am terran, but I am just offering ideas:
What we have established:
-New queen buff has allowed zerg to power drones and take a quick third base, relying on a 6 queen defence.
-Zergs will now open with no gas untill they take a third base, around 6 minutes
-Hellions are no longer a good opener, as zergs can still spread creep, protect drones, and take a fast 3rd base (defeating the main uses of the hellion opener).
-As a side effect of mass queens, zergs get absurd creep spead.
-With this early eco advantage, zergs can easily go infestor ultra/brood which easily defeats the current terran meta (marine + tank)
I think with this new level of creepspread, it is no longer effective to scan for creep tumors. They can be replaced so easily that I think it is almost necessary to make a raven in order to remove creep. One Idea that I can think of is maybe opening 1 rax double expand (make sure to sac scv/scan for gas to make sure no roach/bling attacks are incoming) and maybe trying to get a fast raven to try to keep under control. With ling speed so late, hellions or marines will be free to cross the map safely to remove creep, pick off queens, etc. Remember that by going mass queen, zergs give up map control. I think that if you continue to produce ravens that early, late game they will have alot of energy and, if spread properly to avoid fungals, HSM can be very effective against broods, while the PDD is very good against corrupters (to assist in winning air battle). I also think mech + ravens (maybe even a few ghost for emp) is still very strong lategame, no matter the zerg composition (also remember that you can spend extra minerals on mass orbital so that you can sac SCV to get stronger army). I think maybe this should be experimented with in order to combat the zerg's strong lategame.
Sorry for the long post, but I feel that it is very useless to keep complaining to eachother that zerg is strong in the current meta. Maybe my idea is awful, but atleast we can do something more productive that just complaining. Blizzard does not read TL (or, atleast not all 70 pages of this thread) and I doubt they would nerf zerg just because of this thread. Couple of things about this is 1.) Bio Pressure without Stim will only work with proxied rax with how slow Bio is ( its just 2.25 even slow Lings offcreep are considerably faster ) on just about every Map 2.) Ravens early mean later tanks/medivacs and are useless IF he goes anything but Air 3.) Fungal Growth will put but big wrench into anything involving Raven considering 6 range against 9.. 4.) Mech = 3 Bases stuck and no chance to take more then 3 Bases while also not beeing able to take out Zergbases because you have to play deathballstyle with your 1.975-2.25 speed army . I did experiment with this it is much worse than the now worse strats of old. Mech is not that good. Ravens are frustratingly BAD. Ok, fair enough. One thing I would like to state is that maybe bio is not viable anymore (atleast at this point). I feel like the maxed mech army is much much stronger, and how things are going in TvZ right now, it seems that playing for the late game is the only viable option. If you open bio, and want to have a strong late game, you will be stuck with a bunch of barracks and useless bio upgrades. I am suggesting that maybe terrans open hellions + raven to clear creep early game. Even slow lings on creep cant touch the hellions, and both the hellions and raven will complement your lategame army. With fungal growth + ravens, if you spread you ravens well enough (similar to mutas in a ZvZ), it will take waaaay too many fungals to lock down ALL the ravens, and it only takes 2 or 3 HSM to destroy broodlords. And if they try to focus the ravens with corruptors, the ravens can still PDD while fungaled to protect them long enough for vikings + thors to kill them. As I said before, I do not expect this to be the solution to all terran's TvZ problems, but I am just hoping to get the ball rolling in respect to new theorycrafting. It is quite obvious that the current terran strategies from pre-patch do not work anymore, and I think a drastic change will need to take effect. 1. I don't see how Raven Helion does anything to an opening with 4 Queens on creep duty ..... I mean you see the tumors but you'll lose alot of Helion/Raven life for what a bit of Energy ? Even if you don't need to scan creep turmors can be replanted so fast. 2. 2-3 HSM's kill clumped Broodlords. Even slightly spread ones need at least 5-6 . The splash is very small but Zerg and Toss players don't know that because it rarely gets used ( try in in Unittester you'll be seriously underwhelmed by HSM ) The worse thing about Ravens is they are extremely Energy ineffecient. Every single one of their spell is pretty expensive . 50 ( this spell is also useless ... ),100 and 125 and they only have 200 Energy. You shoot 1 HSM mean you will have 2 useless supply afterwards so you better make sure those 125 Energy meant something ( which is hard to do )
This. I think people overestimate Raven's HSM, it deals 100 damage in 0.5 range, 50 damage in 1 range, and 25 damage in 2.0 range which can't even kill a zergling or baneling. You need a lot of HSM to deal the same effect with some infestors (30 damage in radius of 2 for 75 energy). HSM looks intimidating right now, but if you get used to it, a slight split out of 1.0 radius will negate almost all the effect.
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On June 24 2012 08:53 Crookie wrote:Show nested quote +On June 24 2012 08:46 Sroobz wrote:On June 24 2012 08:37 Crookie wrote:On June 24 2012 08:32 xrapture wrote:
I don't understand why some people are arguing in favor of balance.
Almost EVERY pro Terran-- yea that's right pro not random poster on TL-- says the matchup became completely imbalanced after the Queen buff.
Hell, DRG, Catz, idra, and Stephano even say Z has the advantage-- DRG even laughed in an interview and said he wants a group with 3 Terrans.
MKP said his winrate in tvz went from 60% to 10%. Ryung says he can't even beat NA Zergs. If you are INSANELY better than your opponent, you should win.
No bullshit about "metagame" should even come into discussion. Ryung should roll Ostojiy 10 times in a row, but this patch has really made it impossible for Terran to take advantage of being more skilled because literally nothing in the game can punish mass queen/drone 3 base.
Hell, watch Dimaga vs Brat-ok at Dreamhack. 9 Queens, 3 base, 80 drones at 8:30. That should NOT be standard or possible. I have not once seen any terrans try anything besides the old pre-patch build. Open your eyes dude. All I'm seeing is failed attempts at new builds/timings from Terrans. Maybe I have just missed the games. Do you happen to have the links to any vods, perhaps? I would like to see the new builds. Maybe the answer is to not try to kill the zerg early, and just know that if he is going mass queen, he will not be able to put on any pressure. This allows you to play greedily.
I don't know..it's everywhere. Watch Mvp's stream, Byun's stream, MKP's stream, etc. Specific vods...idk look for HSC V qualifier vids between Mvp and Losira. Idk what else. Literally every Terran streamer I watch tries new things and just gets raped.
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On June 24 2012 08:55 Sein wrote:Show nested quote +On June 24 2012 08:37 Crookie wrote:On June 24 2012 08:32 xrapture wrote:
I don't understand why some people are arguing in favor of balance.
Almost EVERY pro Terran-- yea that's right pro not random poster on TL-- says the matchup became completely imbalanced after the Queen buff.
Hell, DRG, Catz, idra, and Stephano even say Z has the advantage-- DRG even laughed in an interview and said he wants a group with 3 Terrans.
MKP said his winrate in tvz went from 60% to 10%. Ryung says he can't even beat NA Zergs. If you are INSANELY better than your opponent, you should win.
No bullshit about "metagame" should even come into discussion. Ryung should roll Ostojiy 10 times in a row, but this patch has really made it impossible for Terran to take advantage of being more skilled because literally nothing in the game can punish mass queen/drone 3 base.
Hell, watch Dimaga vs Brat-ok at Dreamhack. 9 Queens, 3 base, 80 drones at 8:30. That should NOT be standard or possible. Yes, just like with nearly ever single other buff, the matchup becomes imbalanced for a while. . Have you seen anything of this scale before? I certainly haven't. I do remember people crying and whining a lot when some of the previous patch contents were released to the public, but once those patches actually hit, none of them actually changed a match up balance this drastically. Those complaints came mostly just before and just after each of the patches went live. I have not seen pretty much every pro and casual players complaining about a patch to this extent even over a month after a patch went through. That is what is rather unique about this patch. Before this patch actually hit and people saw the contents, most people were going "Uh what? I don't think that was needed." The majority were not saying "Oh god, my race is over". However, once they started playing after the patch, the whine level shot up through the roof and only got worse over the past few weeks.
The infestor buff was even worse than this im afraid :\. It was mostly ZvP however
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HSM is only good if your opponent is dumb and clumps up all his air units lmao.
People keep telling Terrans to try something new, well we've ran out of options at this point.
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On June 24 2012 08:56 canikizu wrote:Show nested quote +On June 24 2012 08:18 s3rp wrote:On June 24 2012 08:13 Crookie wrote:On June 24 2012 08:04 s3rp wrote:On June 24 2012 07:52 Crookie wrote:
Hey guys... I just wanted to talk about something really quick.
I would like to go ahead and state that I play zerg at mid-high masters and I also have a terran and protoss accout at low masters. Although I do cannot offer specifics, I think we need to change the discussion here a little bit.
I will be the first one to tell you that ZvT is very zerg favored right now. However, I think that this thread has turned into nothing but people complaining about the matchup instead of doing anything about it. Yes, I realize that zerg is strong. Yes I realize queens let zergs get tons of drones and set them up great for lategame. Yes I agree that in the current meta, zergs late-game is much stronger than terrans in most situations. These are all things that have been established. There is litterally no point to have people come in here and just state these facts over and over again. I have been following this thread since the beginning, and very few posts have actually talked about a change in current terran playstyle.
In ZvP, protoss complained about the 4 range roach for a while, and had a tough time forge expanding. When the infestor was buffed, protoss complained that mass blink stalker no longer worked against zerg, who began switching to ling/infestor instead of roach hydra. The fact that patches can greatly change the normal path of a game is well established. Yes, we realized that pre-patch strategies no longer work post-patch.
Now that I have this established, I would like to ask everyone who posts to offer something to the discussion more than just "wow queens too stronk," or "zerg so op, queens make all hellion openers useless".
I would also like to offer a suggestion to hopefully get something started. Please note, I am a much higher level zerg than I am terran, but I am just offering ideas:
What we have established:
-New queen buff has allowed zerg to power drones and take a quick third base, relying on a 6 queen defence.
-Zergs will now open with no gas untill they take a third base, around 6 minutes
-Hellions are no longer a good opener, as zergs can still spread creep, protect drones, and take a fast 3rd base (defeating the main uses of the hellion opener).
-As a side effect of mass queens, zergs get absurd creep spead.
-With this early eco advantage, zergs can easily go infestor ultra/brood which easily defeats the current terran meta (marine + tank)
I think with this new level of creepspread, it is no longer effective to scan for creep tumors. They can be replaced so easily that I think it is almost necessary to make a raven in order to remove creep. One Idea that I can think of is maybe opening 1 rax double expand (make sure to sac scv/scan for gas to make sure no roach/bling attacks are incoming) and maybe trying to get a fast raven to try to keep under control. With ling speed so late, hellions or marines will be free to cross the map safely to remove creep, pick off queens, etc. Remember that by going mass queen, zergs give up map control. I think that if you continue to produce ravens that early, late game they will have alot of energy and, if spread properly to avoid fungals, HSM can be very effective against broods, while the PDD is very good against corrupters (to assist in winning air battle). I also think mech + ravens (maybe even a few ghost for emp) is still very strong lategame, no matter the zerg composition (also remember that you can spend extra minerals on mass orbital so that you can sac SCV to get stronger army). I think maybe this should be experimented with in order to combat the zerg's strong lategame.
Sorry for the long post, but I feel that it is very useless to keep complaining to eachother that zerg is strong in the current meta. Maybe my idea is awful, but atleast we can do something more productive that just complaining. Blizzard does not read TL (or, atleast not all 70 pages of this thread) and I doubt they would nerf zerg just because of this thread. Couple of things about this is 1.) Bio Pressure without Stim will only work with proxied rax with how slow Bio is ( its just 2.25 even slow Lings offcreep are considerably faster ) on just about every Map 2.) Ravens early mean later tanks/medivacs and are useless IF he goes anything but Air 3.) Fungal Growth will put but big wrench into anything involving Raven considering 6 range against 9.. 4.) Mech = 3 Bases stuck and no chance to take more then 3 Bases while also not beeing able to take out Zergbases because you have to play deathballstyle with your 1.975-2.25 speed army . I did experiment with this it is much worse than the now worse strats of old. Mech is not that good. Ravens are frustratingly BAD. Ok, fair enough. One thing I would like to state is that maybe bio is not viable anymore (atleast at this point). I feel like the maxed mech army is much much stronger, and how things are going in TvZ right now, it seems that playing for the late game is the only viable option. If you open bio, and want to have a strong late game, you will be stuck with a bunch of barracks and useless bio upgrades. I am suggesting that maybe terrans open hellions + raven to clear creep early game. Even slow lings on creep cant touch the hellions, and both the hellions and raven will complement your lategame army. With fungal growth + ravens, if you spread you ravens well enough (similar to mutas in a ZvZ), it will take waaaay too many fungals to lock down ALL the ravens, and it only takes 2 or 3 HSM to destroy broodlords. And if they try to focus the ravens with corruptors, the ravens can still PDD while fungaled to protect them long enough for vikings + thors to kill them. As I said before, I do not expect this to be the solution to all terran's TvZ problems, but I am just hoping to get the ball rolling in respect to new theorycrafting. It is quite obvious that the current terran strategies from pre-patch do not work anymore, and I think a drastic change will need to take effect. 1. I don't see how Raven Helion does anything to an opening with 4 Queens on creep duty ..... I mean you see the tumors but you'll lose alot of Helion/Raven life for what a bit of Energy ? Even if you don't need to scan creep turmors can be replanted so fast. 2. 2-3 HSM's kill clumped Broodlords. Even slightly spread ones need at least 5-6 . The splash is very small but Zerg and Toss players don't know that because it rarely gets used ( try in in Unittester you'll be seriously underwhelmed by HSM ) The worse thing about Ravens is they are extremely Energy ineffecient. Every single one of their spell is pretty expensive . 50 ( this spell is also useless ... ),100 and 125 and they only have 200 Energy. You shoot 1 HSM mean you will have 2 useless supply afterwards so you better make sure those 125 Energy meant something ( which is hard to do ) This. I think people overestimate Raven's HSM, it deals 100 damage in 0.5 range, 50 damage in 1 range, and 25 damage in 2.0 range which can't even kill a zergling or baneling. You need a lot of HSM to deal the same effect with some infestors (30 damage in radius of 2 for 75 energy). HSM looks intimidating right now, but if you get used to it, a slight split out of 1.0 radius will negate almost all the effect.
Also what alot of people do because they don't know anything about HSM is try to run from it. Even if the unit cannot outrun it. Running from it WILL make your units clump and and take more damage. The best thing you can to is just take it like a man and maybe try to spread a bit if you see bigger clumps at some points ( HSM is not fast you can spread even when this thing is in the air ). Terrans use and play against this stuff in TvT we know what we're talking about with HSM.
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On June 24 2012 08:50 The Final Boss wrote:
I was a Masters Terran before I stopped playing for a while, but since I quit Terran has gone from the evil, OP race to the victims of imbalance (frankly I kind of like it, haha). The thing that really bugs me are the Zerg and Protoss players claiming "Oh, well Terran should just do something else." Let's have a walk down memory lane with the Terran race and Blizzard's nerfs:
1. Way, way back, Proxy Raxs (I'm talking BBS, not your standard SBB that you see nowadays) were too strong. Blizzard's response: You need a Depot to build a Barracks.
2. MorroW beats IdrA with Reapers. Blizzard's reponse: Reapers no longer useable outside of a single one for scouting purposes.
3. Jump to TvP: ThorZaIN beats MC with Thors. Blizzard's response: inbetween semi-finals and finals (bit hasty, don't you think...), Thors get nerfed, basically making Thor-based mech unplayable as anything other than a cheese.
4. Back to TvZ: SlayerS Terrans take MLG by force with the Blue Flame Hellion build. IdrA cries. Blizzard nerfs Blue Flame.
5. Mvp and MMA still winning; Barracks buildtime increased by 5 seconds.
6. Mvp sniped literally everything Zerg had. Blizzard makes Ghosts pretty worthless outside of TvP. Qxc cries because they don't work in his TvT cheeses. Poor Qxc, I still love you.
7. Hellions too strong, buff Queen.
(there are probably a few more instances of huge changes, but these were certainly the most memorable in my eyes).
I haven't really gotten a chance to actually play TvZ since the patch, but saying that Terran has not adapted is a ridiculous statement. What are we supposed to do? Anytime a player wins in a major tournament with anything other than MMM, Tanks, or When Protoss players were complaining about balance and half of them had never even built a Warp Prism or tried High Templar tech, that sort of argument actually made sense. And don't Zerg players almost always open with the exact same build, then eventually get infestors, and eventually transition into either Broods or Ultras, later getting the other if the first wave doesn't work. Zerg has been doing the same sort of basic game plan for over a year, but if they have a problem then it must be the fault of balance.
I really can't make an assessment on the metagame, balance, or the match-up, but Terran has, throughout the history of StarCraft had the most diversity in it's strategies; that's not because of me, that's not because of the Terran players talking in this thread, it's because of the guys like Mvp or MMA who have won and probably will continue to win regardless of what nerfs Blizzard inflicts upon them. They have for the history of StarCraft 2 been coming up with strategies, making new builds, and creating new ways to murder their opponents in fashions that seem (and sometimes are) OP. Similarly, Zergs and Protoss players have not come up with their own builds (at least not the ones talking in this thread) but rather they use copies of pro builds from players like MC, Stephano, NesTea, DRG, HerO, nani, Oz, or other great players.
Also the quote from the Blizzard guy in the OP makes me laugh. He's talking about how it's all about the big picture and how Terran is going to look in Heart of the Swarm, yet there are a myriad of professional StarCraft pros who play Terran and rely on this game as a source of income. Let's not worry about the game that you might release in the next year or two and lets focus on the present. Blizz does a really terrible job of balancing their attention towards the competitive crowd and the casual crowd.
^someone get this guy a beer
On June 24 2012 08:46 Sroobz wrote:
Open your eyes dude. All I'm seeing is failed attempts at new builds/timings from Terrans.
^because this is all i'm seeing too
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On June 24 2012 08:58 Sroobz wrote:Show nested quote +On June 24 2012 08:53 Crookie wrote:On June 24 2012 08:46 Sroobz wrote:On June 24 2012 08:37 Crookie wrote:On June 24 2012 08:32 xrapture wrote:
I don't understand why some people are arguing in favor of balance.
Almost EVERY pro Terran-- yea that's right pro not random poster on TL-- says the matchup became completely imbalanced after the Queen buff.
Hell, DRG, Catz, idra, and Stephano even say Z has the advantage-- DRG even laughed in an interview and said he wants a group with 3 Terrans.
MKP said his winrate in tvz went from 60% to 10%. Ryung says he can't even beat NA Zergs. If you are INSANELY better than your opponent, you should win.
No bullshit about "metagame" should even come into discussion. Ryung should roll Ostojiy 10 times in a row, but this patch has really made it impossible for Terran to take advantage of being more skilled because literally nothing in the game can punish mass queen/drone 3 base.
Hell, watch Dimaga vs Brat-ok at Dreamhack. 9 Queens, 3 base, 80 drones at 8:30. That should NOT be standard or possible. I have not once seen any terrans try anything besides the old pre-patch build. Open your eyes dude. All I'm seeing is failed attempts at new builds/timings from Terrans. Maybe I have just missed the games. Do you happen to have the links to any vods, perhaps? I would like to see the new builds. Maybe the answer is to not try to kill the zerg early, and just know that if he is going mass queen, he will not be able to put on any pressure. This allows you to play greedily. I don't know..it's everywhere. Watch Mvp's stream, Byun's stream, MKP's stream, etc. Specific vods...idk look for HSC V qualifier vids between Mvp and Losira. Idk what else. Literally every Terran streamer I watch tries new things and just gets raped.
I dont mean to sound douchey, but I would like to see straight up proof. It is very hard to make any progress when everything I see in this thread is "wow terran sucks. lets sit here and complain untill blizzard patches it." Its like if a low level friend tells me he lost to mass hydra and that its OP. If he actually shows me a replay, I can try to help him and show him where he went wrong. However, if there is no backup behind what you are trying to say, its hard for us to make any progress.
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On June 24 2012 08:29 Crookie wrote:Show nested quote +On June 24 2012 08:18 s3rp wrote:On June 24 2012 08:13 Crookie wrote:On June 24 2012 08:04 s3rp wrote:On June 24 2012 07:52 Crookie wrote:
Hey guys... I just wanted to talk about something really quick.
I would like to go ahead and state that I play zerg at mid-high masters and I also have a terran and protoss accout at low masters. Although I do cannot offer specifics, I think we need to change the discussion here a little bit.
I will be the first one to tell you that ZvT is very zerg favored right now. However, I think that this thread has turned into nothing but people complaining about the matchup instead of doing anything about it. Yes, I realize that zerg is strong. Yes I realize queens let zergs get tons of drones and set them up great for lategame. Yes I agree that in the current meta, zergs late-game is much stronger than terrans in most situations. These are all things that have been established. There is litterally no point to have people come in here and just state these facts over and over again. I have been following this thread since the beginning, and very few posts have actually talked about a change in current terran playstyle.
In ZvP, protoss complained about the 4 range roach for a while, and had a tough time forge expanding. When the infestor was buffed, protoss complained that mass blink stalker no longer worked against zerg, who began switching to ling/infestor instead of roach hydra. The fact that patches can greatly change the normal path of a game is well established. Yes, we realized that pre-patch strategies no longer work post-patch.
Now that I have this established, I would like to ask everyone who posts to offer something to the discussion more than just "wow queens too stronk," or "zerg so op, queens make all hellion openers useless".
I would also like to offer a suggestion to hopefully get something started. Please note, I am a much higher level zerg than I am terran, but I am just offering ideas:
What we have established:
-New queen buff has allowed zerg to power drones and take a quick third base, relying on a 6 queen defence.
-Zergs will now open with no gas untill they take a third base, around 6 minutes
-Hellions are no longer a good opener, as zergs can still spread creep, protect drones, and take a fast 3rd base (defeating the main uses of the hellion opener).
-As a side effect of mass queens, zergs get absurd creep spead.
-With this early eco advantage, zergs can easily go infestor ultra/brood which easily defeats the current terran meta (marine + tank)
I think with this new level of creepspread, it is no longer effective to scan for creep tumors. They can be replaced so easily that I think it is almost necessary to make a raven in order to remove creep. One Idea that I can think of is maybe opening 1 rax double expand (make sure to sac scv/scan for gas to make sure no roach/bling attacks are incoming) and maybe trying to get a fast raven to try to keep under control. With ling speed so late, hellions or marines will be free to cross the map safely to remove creep, pick off queens, etc. Remember that by going mass queen, zergs give up map control. I think that if you continue to produce ravens that early, late game they will have alot of energy and, if spread properly to avoid fungals, HSM can be very effective against broods, while the PDD is very good against corrupters (to assist in winning air battle). I also think mech + ravens (maybe even a few ghost for emp) is still very strong lategame, no matter the zerg composition (also remember that you can spend extra minerals on mass orbital so that you can sac SCV to get stronger army). I think maybe this should be experimented with in order to combat the zerg's strong lategame.
Sorry for the long post, but I feel that it is very useless to keep complaining to eachother that zerg is strong in the current meta. Maybe my idea is awful, but atleast we can do something more productive that just complaining. Blizzard does not read TL (or, atleast not all 70 pages of this thread) and I doubt they would nerf zerg just because of this thread. Couple of things about this is 1.) Bio Pressure without Stim will only work with proxied rax with how slow Bio is ( its just 2.25 even slow Lings offcreep are considerably faster ) on just about every Map 2.) Ravens early mean later tanks/medivacs and are useless IF he goes anything but Air 3.) Fungal Growth will put but big wrench into anything involving Raven considering 6 range against 9.. 4.) Mech = 3 Bases stuck and no chance to take more then 3 Bases while also not beeing able to take out Zergbases because you have to play deathballstyle with your 1.975-2.25 speed army . I did experiment with this it is much worse than the now worse strats of old. Mech is not that good. Ravens are frustratingly BAD. Ok, fair enough. One thing I would like to state is that maybe bio is not viable anymore (atleast at this point). I feel like the maxed mech army is much much stronger, and how things are going in TvZ right now, it seems that playing for the late game is the only viable option. If you open bio, and want to have a strong late game, you will be stuck with a bunch of barracks and useless bio upgrades. I am suggesting that maybe terrans open hellions + raven to clear creep early game. Even slow lings on creep cant touch the hellions, and both the hellions and raven will complement your lategame army. With fungal growth + ravens, if you spread you ravens well enough (similar to mutas in a ZvZ), it will take waaaay too many fungals to lock down ALL the ravens, and it only takes 2 or 3 HSM to destroy broodlords. And if they try to focus the ravens with corruptors, the ravens can still PDD while fungaled to protect them long enough for vikings + thors to kill them. As I said before, I do not expect this to be the solution to all terran's TvZ problems, but I am just hoping to get the ball rolling in respect to new theorycrafting. It is quite obvious that the current terran strategies from pre-patch do not work anymore, and I think a drastic change will need to take effect. 1. I don't see how Raven Helion does anything to an opening with 4 Queens on creep duty ..... I mean you see the tumors but you'll lose alot of Helion/Raven life for what a bit of Energy ? Even if you don't need to scan creep turmors can be replanted so fast. 2. 2-3 HSM's kill clumped Broodlords. Even slightly spread ones need at least 5-6 . The splash is very small but Zerg and Toss players don't know that because it rarely gets used ( try in in Unittester you'll be seriously underwhelmed by HSM ) PDD can stop queen auto-attack, and if you are going mech, hellions are essentially free (while gas will be your limiting factor in terms of unit production). I dont think hellion/raven can outright kill the queens (although possible), but it atleast offers some potential option to try to control the creep. While I agree that HSM is not very strong against spread units, It can still do a decent amount of damage to them, and mainly, it can help your vikings beat the corruptors outright. While fungals may be a problem, I think even 2-3 ghosts could offer some help. Also, spreading you own air units will help alot. And even though spreading broodlords can help vs HSM, its better than letting the zerg ball up and a-move. Similar to in PvZ, the mothership is not near as effective against broods if they are spread out, but the mothership does 2 things: 1. If the zerg does slip up on their micro for 1 seconds, their entire army is gone and the game is over. 2. It forces to zerg to split up their broods, which makes it a little bit more managable to take them out. Also remember that if you produce the ravens so early in the game, by the lategame, they will all be full on energy. Even if HSM doesnt do insane amounts of damage, you will have a shitton of them (plus PDD, which is very underrated against late game zerg)
Roach/bane/ling "all in" would be really strong against it.
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On June 24 2012 09:08 Torra wrote:Show nested quote +On June 24 2012 08:29 Crookie wrote:On June 24 2012 08:18 s3rp wrote:On June 24 2012 08:13 Crookie wrote:On June 24 2012 08:04 s3rp wrote:On June 24 2012 07:52 Crookie wrote:
Hey guys... I just wanted to talk about something really quick.
I would like to go ahead and state that I play zerg at mid-high masters and I also have a terran and protoss accout at low masters. Although I do cannot offer specifics, I think we need to change the discussion here a little bit.
I will be the first one to tell you that ZvT is very zerg favored right now. However, I think that this thread has turned into nothing but people complaining about the matchup instead of doing anything about it. Yes, I realize that zerg is strong. Yes I realize queens let zergs get tons of drones and set them up great for lategame. Yes I agree that in the current meta, zergs late-game is much stronger than terrans in most situations. These are all things that have been established. There is litterally no point to have people come in here and just state these facts over and over again. I have been following this thread since the beginning, and very few posts have actually talked about a change in current terran playstyle.
In ZvP, protoss complained about the 4 range roach for a while, and had a tough time forge expanding. When the infestor was buffed, protoss complained that mass blink stalker no longer worked against zerg, who began switching to ling/infestor instead of roach hydra. The fact that patches can greatly change the normal path of a game is well established. Yes, we realized that pre-patch strategies no longer work post-patch.
Now that I have this established, I would like to ask everyone who posts to offer something to the discussion more than just "wow queens too stronk," or "zerg so op, queens make all hellion openers useless".
I would also like to offer a suggestion to hopefully get something started. Please note, I am a much higher level zerg than I am terran, but I am just offering ideas:
What we have established:
-New queen buff has allowed zerg to power drones and take a quick third base, relying on a 6 queen defence.
-Zergs will now open with no gas untill they take a third base, around 6 minutes
-Hellions are no longer a good opener, as zergs can still spread creep, protect drones, and take a fast 3rd base (defeating the main uses of the hellion opener).
-As a side effect of mass queens, zergs get absurd creep spead.
-With this early eco advantage, zergs can easily go infestor ultra/brood which easily defeats the current terran meta (marine + tank)
I think with this new level of creepspread, it is no longer effective to scan for creep tumors. They can be replaced so easily that I think it is almost necessary to make a raven in order to remove creep. One Idea that I can think of is maybe opening 1 rax double expand (make sure to sac scv/scan for gas to make sure no roach/bling attacks are incoming) and maybe trying to get a fast raven to try to keep under control. With ling speed so late, hellions or marines will be free to cross the map safely to remove creep, pick off queens, etc. Remember that by going mass queen, zergs give up map control. I think that if you continue to produce ravens that early, late game they will have alot of energy and, if spread properly to avoid fungals, HSM can be very effective against broods, while the PDD is very good against corrupters (to assist in winning air battle). I also think mech + ravens (maybe even a few ghost for emp) is still very strong lategame, no matter the zerg composition (also remember that you can spend extra minerals on mass orbital so that you can sac SCV to get stronger army). I think maybe this should be experimented with in order to combat the zerg's strong lategame.
Sorry for the long post, but I feel that it is very useless to keep complaining to eachother that zerg is strong in the current meta. Maybe my idea is awful, but atleast we can do something more productive that just complaining. Blizzard does not read TL (or, atleast not all 70 pages of this thread) and I doubt they would nerf zerg just because of this thread. Couple of things about this is 1.) Bio Pressure without Stim will only work with proxied rax with how slow Bio is ( its just 2.25 even slow Lings offcreep are considerably faster ) on just about every Map 2.) Ravens early mean later tanks/medivacs and are useless IF he goes anything but Air 3.) Fungal Growth will put but big wrench into anything involving Raven considering 6 range against 9.. 4.) Mech = 3 Bases stuck and no chance to take more then 3 Bases while also not beeing able to take out Zergbases because you have to play deathballstyle with your 1.975-2.25 speed army . I did experiment with this it is much worse than the now worse strats of old. Mech is not that good. Ravens are frustratingly BAD. Ok, fair enough. One thing I would like to state is that maybe bio is not viable anymore (atleast at this point). I feel like the maxed mech army is much much stronger, and how things are going in TvZ right now, it seems that playing for the late game is the only viable option. If you open bio, and want to have a strong late game, you will be stuck with a bunch of barracks and useless bio upgrades. I am suggesting that maybe terrans open hellions + raven to clear creep early game. Even slow lings on creep cant touch the hellions, and both the hellions and raven will complement your lategame army. With fungal growth + ravens, if you spread you ravens well enough (similar to mutas in a ZvZ), it will take waaaay too many fungals to lock down ALL the ravens, and it only takes 2 or 3 HSM to destroy broodlords. And if they try to focus the ravens with corruptors, the ravens can still PDD while fungaled to protect them long enough for vikings + thors to kill them. As I said before, I do not expect this to be the solution to all terran's TvZ problems, but I am just hoping to get the ball rolling in respect to new theorycrafting. It is quite obvious that the current terran strategies from pre-patch do not work anymore, and I think a drastic change will need to take effect. 1. I don't see how Raven Helion does anything to an opening with 4 Queens on creep duty ..... I mean you see the tumors but you'll lose alot of Helion/Raven life for what a bit of Energy ? Even if you don't need to scan creep turmors can be replanted so fast. 2. 2-3 HSM's kill clumped Broodlords. Even slightly spread ones need at least 5-6 . The splash is very small but Zerg and Toss players don't know that because it rarely gets used ( try in in Unittester you'll be seriously underwhelmed by HSM ) PDD can stop queen auto-attack, and if you are going mech, hellions are essentially free (while gas will be your limiting factor in terms of unit production). I dont think hellion/raven can outright kill the queens (although possible), but it atleast offers some potential option to try to control the creep. While I agree that HSM is not very strong against spread units, It can still do a decent amount of damage to them, and mainly, it can help your vikings beat the corruptors outright. While fungals may be a problem, I think even 2-3 ghosts could offer some help. Also, spreading you own air units will help alot. And even though spreading broodlords can help vs HSM, its better than letting the zerg ball up and a-move. Similar to in PvZ, the mothership is not near as effective against broods if they are spread out, but the mothership does 2 things: 1. If the zerg does slip up on their micro for 1 seconds, their entire army is gone and the game is over. 2. It forces to zerg to split up their broods, which makes it a little bit more managable to take them out. Also remember that if you produce the ravens so early in the game, by the lategame, they will all be full on energy. Even if HSM doesnt do insane amounts of damage, you will have a shitton of them (plus PDD, which is very underrated against late game zerg) Roach/bane/ling "all in" would be really strong against it.
But if you scout gas, then you can play a little bit more defensively. If you know the timing for the roach/bane allin, it will be very easy to see it coming with 2 orbitals that can scan. Obviously, if you dont scout gas, you can assume that it will be the mass queen build.
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EPT
