EPT1 Month later... Is Queen Range still too strong [TvZ]? -…
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This thread is going nowhere and I'm tired of dealing with it. Either drop the personal attacks and whining and replace it with actual discussion or it'll be closed. 12:09 KST Page 98 | ||
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submarine
Germany290 Posts
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rd
United States2586 Posts
On June 24 2012 06:37 submarine wrote: If the creep was the only problem they could just make the tumors visible and increase their health a bit. That'd have ramifications on both PvZ and ZvZ though. I think the better change is to just revert queens back to their original range. | ||
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s3rp
Germany3192 Posts
On June 24 2012 06:28 canikizu wrote: Of course he likes it, 1 scan only has radius of 13 and cost 50 energy and takes 89sec to regen back, while 4 creep tumor in an area can spread creep a radius of 10 in ~20sec, so by the time you have enough energy to scan again, creep tumor has already out of countrol. Scan is no way an effective way to kill creep tumor. If mobile detection was only on a unit for Terran that is useful early/midgame -.- ( and no Ravens aren't that 200 Gas for mobile detection and nothing else is not worth it ). At the point where Ravens become useful you don't need them for mobile detection and containing creep . ( well maybe detection with mech against burrowed roaches ) | ||
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ticklishmusic
United States15977 Posts
1. Stop Zerg from making drones 2. Exploiting Zerg's lack of range 3. Make Zerg spend gas It was clear that hellions were THE perfect "counter" to Zerg's earlygame. They're fast, did a small amount of splash damage, but were also micro-intensive and relatively fragile. In response, Zerg would make one of three things: queens, lings, crawlers. Each of these had some characteristic that was good against hellions, but also had sort of drawback-- I guess a soft counter of sorts. Queens were tanky, but they were relatively immobile and could be kited. Lings were fast and versatile, but larva intensive and had to be micro'd and were also fragile. Crawlers were tanky and strong, but expensive, slow-building and very immobile. So overall, Zerg's defense would have to revolve around a good balance of these three elements. In many ways, I think that was the hallmark of a good Zerg player-- the ability to make the correct units in response to an attack, similar to how Protoss makes a balance between zealots/stalkers/sentries when they warp in units-- too many zealots, kited to death, too many sentries, no dps, too many stalkers, no survivability. Too many lings, too much larva wasted and a lot of dead lings. Too many crawlers, too much wasted minerals and useless afterwards. Too many queens, too few of the other things and hellions will run around you roasting drones. There was a unit that was pretty good against hellions called the roach. Their advantages were their range, speed and tankiness against hellions-- in a way, they were like moving spine crawlers. However unlike the other units, they cost gas. Zerg wants to hoard gas for other things, so roaches had their cost too. However, queens become an extremely good alternative to roaches with the buff. Adding the range eliminates their one major drawback-- their ability to be kited. Including that they cost no gas and no larvae, there's absolutely no problem with making lots of them. 5 range is the range of a marine 5 range is the range of a hellion (targeting). It makes them essentially a hard counter to Terran early game. This is a bit of a sidenote, but the extra energy is also kind of a problem. I have a diamond level Terran practice buddy (because my PvT sucks). He recently played a masters Zerg and went for the old reactored hellions. He got shut down pretty hard as expected. AFTER that, the Z just built a creep highway with his 6-7 queens all the way to his base and won with pretty much a queen hydra push. Its a bit ridiculous, but it shows how a runaway Zerg with extra queens can do a lot of damage. Given how bad my PvT is, maybe I'll just start playing Z against T, lol. My suggestion would be to reduce queen range to 4 and see if that would help. Try taking away the energy too, or make it a cheap upgrade to spawn with extra energy as well. | ||
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submarine
Germany290 Posts
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zhurai
United States5660 Posts
On June 24 2012 06:50 ticklishmusic wrote: I feel that TvZ earlygame basically revolved around several ideas. 1. Stop Zerg from making drones 2. Exploiting Zerg's lack of range 3. Make Zerg spend gas It was clear that hellions were THE perfect "counter" to Zerg's earlygame. They're fast, did a small amount of splash damage, but were also micro-intensive and relatively fragile. In response, Zerg would make one of three things: queens, lings, crawlers. Each of these had some characteristic that was good against hellions, but also had sort of drawback-- I guess a soft counter of sorts. Queens were tanky, but they were relatively immobile and could be kited. Lings were fast and versatile, but larva intensive and had to be micro'd and were also fragile. Crawlers were tanky and strong, but expensive, slow-building and very immobile. So overall, Zerg's defense would have to revolve around a good balance of these three elements. In many ways, I think that was the hallmark of a good Zerg player-- the ability to make the correct units in response to an attack, similar to how Protoss makes a balance between zealots/stalkers/sentries when they warp in units-- too many zealots, kited to death, too many sentries, no dps, too many stalkers, no survivability. Too many lings, too much larva wasted and a lot of dead lings. Too many crawlers, too much wasted minerals and useless afterwards. Too many queens, too few of the other things and hellions will run around you roasting drones. There was a unit that was pretty good against hellions called the roach. Their advantages were their range, speed and tankiness against hellions-- in a way, they were like moving spine crawlers. However unlike the other units, they cost gas. Zerg wants to hoard gas for other things, so roaches had their cost too. However, queens become an extremely good alternative to roaches with the buff. Adding the range eliminates their one major drawback-- their ability to be kited. Including that they cost no gas and no larvae, there's absolutely no problem with making lots of them. 5 range is the range of a marine 5 range is the range of a hellion (targeting). It makes them essentially a hard counter to Terran early game. This is a bit of a sidenote, but the extra energy is also kind of a problem. I have a diamond level Terran practice buddy (because my PvT sucks). He recently played a masters Zerg and went for the old reactored hellions. He got shut down pretty hard as expected. AFTER that, the Z just built a creep highway with his 6-7 queens all the way to his base and won with pretty much a queen hydra push. Its a bit ridiculous, but it shows how a runaway Zerg with extra queens can do a lot of damage. Given how bad my PvT is, maybe I'll just start playing Z against T, lol. My suggestion would be to reduce queen range to 4 and see if that would help. Try taking away the energy too, or make it a cheap upgrade to spawn with extra energy as well. I actually said that doing 3->4 is better than 3->5 suddenly, but not like anyone listened. | ||
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redruMBunny
74 Posts
Newsflash: Having to build units before you get 70 drones and 3 bases does not mean you're behind. It doesn't even mean that in freaking ZvP, where you take a 4 min third. Just make a bunch of roaches and simcity your natural against hellions. Nobody's seriously saying zerg don't have to make units. You don't even see Stephano, notorious for defense and 3 base going without a few lings early on. Zerg need to make units for scouting and map control, fairly early, always. That's just a given. The point that pro-Queen buff players are going at is that pre-Queen buff that Zerg had to commit *disproportionate* resources to fighting units, cutting their ability to drone up and expand. Zerg is a race that's supposed to be 1 base up, including drones to harvest at that base, and an early defensive bonus makes sense in that regard. If that's not the case, you should "newsflash" all the commentators and players that believe otherwise. (Maybe they really are all wrong.) If that wasn't the point you intended to make (i.e. you didn't mean to REALLY say Zerg didn't need anything before going 70 on drone/queen), please don't use hyperbole. I think you certainly know that any decent Zerg will go at least some fighting units early on. "make a bunch of roaches and simcity your natural against hellions". Completely besides the point to the degree that I almost suspect you're trolling. But let's assume that's not the case. First, by the time you "make a bunch of roaches", early hellion pressure is already gone, which is one of the major complaints about the queen buff. Second, one of the major upshot of the queen buff was to make it easier for Zerg to creep, which is not something that turtling with roaches accomplishes. Third, you don't see Zerg simcity, because it doesn't really exist much. You can wall off with supply depots or warpgates with Terran/Protoss (which is simcity), but Zerg don't want to stick vital structures where they can easily be destroyed. That's just not how you play Zerg. You really don't want to stick essential evolution chambers on your base perimeter either. If those vital structures are attacked, you have to go out and fight, then those buildings choke your concave while your opponent has no such choke problem. Building them closer in usually doesn't help in the ZvT matchup anyways. You're maybe stopping SCVs from being able to hit something, at the cost of putting your upgrades on your perimeter, which is still no good. Consider Terran walling off naturals with engineering bays. It just really isn't done, for the same reasons. -- How does a unit that costs 25! gas each while the production building doesn't even cost any Gas cut heavily into your gas ?. You can look at superficial statistics and be astonished. But if you're a real Zerg player, you already know the answer. Suppose you're building Marauder. They also are 25 gas. But you need tech labs, so you need a pretty big sunk investment for each Marauder production setup. Plus, you still want to pump Marines as a DPS mineral sink. So in practice, you don't end up pumping Marauders a whole lot, unless you're doing some sort of dedicated Marauder push. So if you're Terran, you're thinking - Marauders don't seem to suck up a lot of gas, I still have enough left for Medivac, tank, whatever. It isn't awful. Sure, what's the problem? But Zerg roaches are not like Marauders. Zerg is not like Terran. Roaches have range 4. If you go in against a Terran army, you're going to take losses, because Terrans have better range, and Zerg units will die before they can even get a shot off. Sure, roaches are tougher, sure, roaches are great. But you don't make just a few roaches and use the rest zerglings, because that's just about the same as going pure zerglings. You need a chunk of roaches. That's why roaches suck gas. You need a lot of them to be effective. Also, Terran units like Medivacs, tanks, etc, are easier to keep alive. You can often shield them behind other units or keep them behind other units. That is, your Terran vespene units stay alive, especially in TvZ, and especially if you're not sieging like mad. That's big. On the other hand, Zerg mutalisks really aren't so hot. You need big packs of them and they die very easily and their DPS isn't so great. Infestors are great, but not particularly easy to keep alive. You have a bit of Terran detection (and of course you always have scanner sweep), and keep an eye on engagements, and you can pop infestors. And Infestors cost a fat chunk of gas. So Terrans might say "Yes, but Zerg always have plenty of infestors" - exactly. You DO build plenty of infestors with Zerg, and that takes a chunk of gas. Zerg gas is so important. It's important to Terrans too, but so much more so for Zerg. If Zerg are blowing their gas all around, they don't have the gas they really need for infestor/greater spire/etc. etc, then they just get roasted. Everything good in the Zerg army costs gas, and every Zerg unit is vulnerable. Mutalisks are pretty low on HP and range, plus don't do a chunk of DPS. Broodlords are easy to kill if the Zerg doesn't have a chunk of ground protecting them. Infestors can be picked off. Banelings die. Etc. etc., right down to roaches having shorter range like I already mentioned. Which is not to say Zerg are weak, but just to say that gas management is something Zerg players really really need to think about. 25 gas per roach is really not a decision to be made lightly. -- As far as the rest of that quote - Also 4-6 Helions will lose to 3-4 Roaches pretty badly and if you wall with Evos ( that you want anyway ) and put a Queen in the middle there will be no runby ( and even if he somehow gets through you shouldn't lose more than the Helions cost unless you suck and he will sacrifice his whole mapcontrol from that point on since Helion production will stop ) . Helions will never kill a Hatch with their pityful damage. IF the Terran invests heavily into Helions you'll want to be able to have roaches anyway . I consider this very suspect. First, walling with evos was, besides being what I consider a bad idea, besides the point. Defending ZvT against Hellion drop/runby was also not the point. The later game section of Hellion vs Roach was also not the point. Second, making exaggerated statements like "losing more than the Hellion cost unless you suck" - Suppose you make a runby with four Hellions. This isn't a joke attack. If you don't flee drones, a lot will be cooked off. So let's say you flee 16 drones for 15 seconds. That's 140 minerals, at least, right there. If you pulled 6 gas drones off too, you're losing gas in the process too, say about 60 gas. So you're already losing a chunk of resources without the Hellions even having fired a shot or having killed a single unit. If the Hellions kill a few units, that's a bonus for the Terran. Add in the fact that Hellions are fast, and that a few of them may survive. It just gets better and better. Now consider that Terrans need to scout Zerg. You don't not scout, it just isn't done. You usually don't send a factory or barracks in to scout early, because you often aren't in position to do so that early. Using a scanner sweep is opportunity MULE cost, which is at least 200 minerals anyways, especially in that important early game while economy's still being developed. So now consider all the good things about a Hellion runby. You do well in opportunity cost, trading your minerals for their gas. (Always good when you can cut a Zerg's gas). You get a scout off, which is another bonus. Plus whatever bonus kills you get out of it, plus one or more Hellions may survive. It's just so good. Even with the Queen buff, Hellion runbys still make a lot of sense. At least you don't have Hellions assassinating creep-spreading Queens with "lol" any more. Why didn't you have early creep spread in ZvT prepatch? Because Hellions kite Queens. The only answer was to escort, which either cost a chunk of lings or demanded early roaches, but in any event cut Zerg development very nastily. The complaint now is that post-patch lots of Zerg have decent early creep levels, where before decent early creep was the exception. But I think that's how it's *supposed* to be. As it is, Zerg still can't keep creep levels up in later game with a bit of scanner sweep or Raven, so it's hardly as if Zerg suddenly have some awesome super-creep-power. -- As far as queen buff allowing Zerg lategame, and of Zerg late game being something against which Terrans don't have an answer - well, I think that's another separate issue, but I wouldn't say that's a "queen problem". I think that would be a "Terran late game problem." | ||
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Snowbear
Korea (South)1925 Posts
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Femari
United States2900 Posts
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shizna
United Kingdom803 Posts
without ghosts, it was only a matter of time before zerg started getting free win vs terran *unless the terran does something heroic to cripple zerg in early game* if ghost was causing terran>zerg, then go back to that and change something else... because ghost is utterly pathetic now. | ||
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Picklebread
808 Posts
On June 24 2012 07:02 Snowbear wrote: LOL I just saw demuslim showing a replay where he beats forgg with zerg, while playing so damn terrible (he said that himself)... I saw that too that was bs. | ||
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Diavlo
Belgium2915 Posts
On June 24 2012 07:02 Snowbear wrote: LOL I just saw demuslim showing a replay where he beats forgg with zerg, while playing so damn terrible (he said that himself)... He did play really bad but Forgg also played like shit. When Demu attacked for the first time, he had already lost a shit ton of scv's (and lost more to mutas during the battle) and lost all his tanks and thors because he let them sit so far ahead of his marines. After that Forgg was pretty dead, a better zerg would have ended him even faster. Sad to see how Demuslim is feels about the match-up though  | ||
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s3rp
Germany3192 Posts
On June 24 2012 06:58 redruMBunny wrote: Nobody's seriously saying zerg don't have to make units. You don't even see Stephano, notorious for defense and 3 base going without a few lings early on. Zerg need to make units for scouting and map control, fairly early, always. That's just a given. The point that pro-Queen buff players are going at is that pre-Queen buff that Zerg had to commit *disproportionate* resources to fighting units, cutting their ability to drone up and expand. Zerg is a race that's supposed to be 1 base up, including drones to harvest at that base, and an early defensive bonus makes sense in that regard. If that's not the case, you should "newsflash" all the commentators and players that believe otherwise. (Maybe they really are all wrong.) If that wasn't the point you intended to make (i.e. you didn't mean to REALLY say Zerg didn't need anything before going 70 on drone/queen), please don't use hyperbole. I think you certainly know that any decent Zerg will go at least some fighting units early on. "make a bunch of roaches and simcity your natural against hellions". Completely besides the point to the degree that I almost suspect you're trolling. But let's assume that's not the case. First, by the time you "make a bunch of roaches", early hellion pressure is already gone, which is one of the major complaints about the queen buff. Second, one of the major upshot of the queen buff was to make it easier for Zerg to creep, which is not something that turtling with roaches accomplishes. Third, you don't see Zerg simcity, because it doesn't really exist much. You can wall off with supply depots or warpgates with Terran/Protoss (which is simcity), but Zerg don't want to stick vital structures where they can easily be destroyed. That's just not how you play Zerg. You really don't want to stick essential evolution chambers on your base perimeter either. If those vital structures are attacked, you have to go out and fight, then those buildings choke your concave while your opponent has no such choke problem. Building them closer in usually doesn't help in the ZvT matchup anyways. You're maybe stopping SCVs from being able to hit something, at the cost of putting your upgrades on your perimeter, which is still no good. Consider Terran walling off naturals with engineering bays. It just really isn't done, for the same reasons. -- You can look at superficial statistics and be astonished. But if you're a real Zerg player, you already know the answer. Suppose you're building Marauder. They also are 25 gas. But you need tech labs, so you need a pretty big sunk investment for each Marauder production setup. Plus, you still want to pump Marines as a DPS mineral sink. So in practice, you don't end up pumping Marauders a whole lot, unless you're doing some sort of dedicated Marauder push. So if you're Terran, you're thinking - Marauders don't seem to suck up a lot of gas, I still have enough left for Medivac, tank, whatever. It isn't awful. Sure, what's the problem? But Zerg roaches are not like Marauders. Zerg is not like Terran. Roaches have range 4. If you go in against a Terran army, you're going to take losses, because Terrans have better range, and Zerg units will die before they can even get a shot off. Sure, roaches are tougher, sure, roaches are great. But you don't make just a few roaches and use the rest zerglings, because that's just about the same as going pure zerglings. You need a chunk of roaches. That's why roaches suck gas. You need a lot of them to be effective. Also, Terran units like Medivacs, tanks, etc, are easier to keep alive. You can often shield them behind other units or keep them behind other units. That is, your Terran vespene units stay alive, especially in TvZ, and especially if you're not sieging like mad. That's big. On the other hand, Zerg mutalisks really aren't so hot. You need big packs of them and they die very easily and their DPS isn't so great. Infestors are great, but not particularly easy to keep alive. You have a bit of Terran detection (and of course you always have scanner sweep), and keep an eye on engagements, and you can pop infestors. And Infestors cost a fat chunk of gas. So Terrans might say "Yes, but Zerg always have plenty of infestors" - exactly. You DO build plenty of infestors with Zerg, and that takes a chunk of gas. Zerg gas is so important. It's important to Terrans too, but so much more so for Zerg. If Zerg are blowing their gas all around, they don't have the gas they really need for infestor/greater spire/etc. etc, then they just get roasted. Everything good in the Zerg army costs gas, and every Zerg unit is vulnerable. Mutalisks are pretty low on HP and range, plus don't do a chunk of DPS. Broodlords are easy to kill if the Zerg doesn't have a chunk of ground protecting them. Infestors can be picked off. Banelings die. Etc. etc., right down to roaches having shorter range like I already mentioned. Which is not to say Zerg are weak, but just to say that gas management is something Zerg players really really need to think about. 25 gas per roach is really not a decision to be made lightly. -- As far as the rest of that quote - I consider this very suspect. First, walling with evos was, besides being what I consider a bad idea, besides the point. Defending ZvT against Hellion drop/runby was also not the point. The later game section of Hellion vs Roach was also not the point. Second, making exaggerated statements like "losing more than the Hellion cost unless you suck" - Suppose you make a runby with four Hellions. This isn't a joke attack. If you don't flee drones, a lot will be cooked off. So let's say you flee 16 drones for 15 seconds. That's 140 minerals, at least, right there. If you pulled 6 gas drones off too, you're losing gas in the process too, say about 60 gas. So you're already losing a chunk of resources without the Hellions even having fired a shot or having killed a single unit. If the Hellions kill a few units, that's a bonus for the Terran. Add in the fact that Hellions are fast, and that a few of them may survive. It just gets better and better. Now consider that Terrans need to scout Zerg. You don't not scout, it just isn't done. You usually don't send a factory or barracks in to scout early, because you often aren't in position to do so that early. Using a scanner sweep is opportunity MULE cost, which is at least 200 minerals anyways, especially in that important early game while economy's still being developed. So now consider all the good things about a Hellion runby. You do well in opportunity cost, trading your minerals for their gas. (Always good when you can cut a Zerg's gas). You get a scout off, which is another bonus. Plus whatever bonus kills you get out of it, plus one or more Hellions may survive. It's just so good. Even with the Queen buff, Hellion runbys still make a lot of sense. At least you don't have Hellions assassinating creep-spreading Queens with "lol" any more. Why didn't you have early creep spread in ZvT prepatch? Because Hellions kite Queens. The only answer was to escort, which either cost a chunk of lings or demanded early roaches, but in any event cut Zerg development very nastily. The complaint now is that post-patch lots of Zerg have decent early creep levels, where before decent early creep was the exception. But I think that's how it's *supposed* to be. As it is, Zerg still can't keep creep levels up in later game with a bit of scanner sweep or Raven, so it's hardly as if Zerg suddenly have some awesome super-creep-power. -- As far as queen buff allowing Zerg lategame, and of Zerg late game being something against which Terrans don't have an answer - well, I think that's another separate issue, but I wouldn't say that's a "queen problem". I think that would be a "Terran late game problem." Look i'd have no problem with the Queen buff is Terran had reliable 2 Base All-ins ( like Toss ) or a lategame solution that actually works on a regular basis. If all your lategame army is pure counters then you allways have to guess the right amount counter units for something you're going to need only to have a chance to win the fight. Then you probably lose to a remax of something you guessed wrong or couldn't react fast enough to. Same thing in TvP win lategame situation after trades because you don't know what the fuck he's remaxing with or can't build the stuff you need fast enough. But at least TvP still has a window where you can end the game before he reaches this. In TvZ ? No way .You see 12-15 minute Hives with 3-3 thanks to very early 3rd bases that get fully saturated very fast and you can't pressure. Before the change Terran had way to slow down the Zerg considerably enough to not get economically behind while also getting outteched. The Terran army remaxes the slowest so it should be the most cost effecient . Well sadly its not it at best trades even with lategame armies of Toss/Zerg while still rebuilding slower. | ||
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redruMBunny
74 Posts
This is a bit of a sidenote, but the extra energy is also kind of a problem. I have a diamond level Terran practice buddy (because my PvT sucks). He recently played a masters Zerg and went for the old reactored hellions. He got shut down pretty hard as expected. AFTER that, the Z just built a creep highway with his 6-7 queens all the way to his base and won with pretty much a queen hydra push. Its a bit ridiculous, but it shows how a runaway Zerg with extra queens can do a lot of damage. Given how bad my PvT is, maybe I'll just start playing Z against T, lol. So you had a diamond level Terran go against a masters Zerg. The diamond level Terran lost. Isn't that to be expected? I don't think I would say queen buff is imba based on that. If you had a grand master Terran play against a diamond Zerg, and the Zerg won, perhaps. But this is the other way around. It sounds to me like your buddy lost because of imbalanced skill levels, not because of imba queen. Your buddy got "shut down hard", which means your buddy did something wrong. There are so many mistakes that are easy to make with hellions. If you a-move, you can get surrounded and picked off by speedlings easy, even outside a base. If you're in a base, and you run in, you can often get speedlings running down from the main then getting a surround, then killing those hellions off pretty fast with queen/colony plus those lings. If you don't micro hellions, they attack buildings, which is really really sad. I mean seriously. But if you manage it right, hellions should never get "shut down hard". They are fast, a lot faster than marines, plus they have AOE. It sounds to me like your buddy thought he was going to lose so made a desperation play, or got careless, or something, and lost a chunk of stuff. But he would probably have gotten slammed even prebuff Queen, or so it seems to me. If you run hellions in, you really need to be prepared to turn around and run away, and it sounds like your buddy just did not do that. Granted speedlings are faster than hellions, especially on creep. But even so, you shouldn't sustain a huge chunk of casualties if you are prepared to run. You should only lose 1-2 Hellions to pursuing speedlings if you manage the retreat well, and especially if you have a bit of reinforcement. So your buddy was behind at that point after failing Hellions. Then what happened? Apparently your buddy had so much lack of map control that the Zerg built a creep highway all the way to his base. That's understandable, especially after a big loss (which again shouldn't have happened). But your buddy lost so much map control that the Zerg creep was allowed to spread that much? Your buddy lost that game anyways. Queens didn't have much to do with it at that point. He happened to lose to queen/hydra, but he would have lost to mass roach or speedling/baneling or just about anything. Anyways if your buddy is still trying to do things the old way, what's the surprise when he loses? If your buddy hasn't adjusted play style after a month, and your buddy's trying to force the game like it played pre patch, it shouldn't be a surprise when he loses, whether he was diamond, grand master, or bronze. | ||
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rd
United States2586 Posts
On June 24 2012 07:05 shizna wrote: the zerg>terran has very little to do with the queen range... queen range helps a bit against hellion openings i guess, but the metagame has been swinging ever since ghost nerf.... without ghosts, it was only a matter of time before zerg started getting free win vs terran *unless the terran does something heroic to cripple zerg in early game* if ghost was causing terran>zerg, then go back to that and change something else... because ghost is utterly pathetic now. Sort of? Late game got more difficult without ghosts, but subsequent mid-game pushes from Terran were more powerful when Zerg wasn't free to take a third and drone up so hard with little threat from the now missing pre-buff hellion pressure. | ||
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Toadvine
Poland2234 Posts
On June 24 2012 07:13 s3rp wrote: Look i'd have no problem with the Queen buff is Terran had reliable 2 Base All-ins ( like Toss ) or a lategame solution that actually works on a regular basis. If all your lategame army is pure counters then you allways have to guess the right amount counter units for something you're going to need only to have a chance to win the fight. Then you probably lose to a remax of something you guessed wrong or couldn't react fast enough to. Same thing in TvP win lategame situation after trades because you don't know what the fuck he's remaxing with or can't build the stuff you need fast enough. But at least TvP still has a window where you can end the game before he reaches this. In TvZ ? No way .You see 12-15 minute Hives with 3-3 thanks to very early 3rd bases that get fully saturated very fast and you can't pressure. Before the change Terran had way to slow down the Zerg considerably enough to not get economically behind while also getting outteched. The Terran army remaxes the slowest so it should be the most cost effecient . Well sadly its not it at best trades even with lategame armies of Toss/Zerg while still rebuilding slower. No, you don't want it to be like that. PvZ is an awful matchup, it's either a 2 base all-in or both sides rushing for their lategame compositions on 3-4 bases. It's terrible, and one of the major reasons why the Queen buff is so bad - because it takes good gameplay, with both players fighting for map control, and turns it into a stupid turtlefest, just like in PvZ. Every matchup should strive to be like pre-patch TvZ, especially when it involved Mutas. That Browder and co decided this was bad and needed to be changed, is ultimate proof of their incompetence and stupidity. | ||
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submarine
Germany290 Posts
Even if terran had a legitimate lategame and the matchup was balanced i would still miss the action packed tvz we had up until the recent patch. It´s just sad to see the best mu get killed by a random buff out of nowhere. | ||
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c0sm0naut
United States1229 Posts
-changing the fundamental interactions of two units nearly ubiquitous in all tvz matches was a very bad idea to begin with -this problem is compounded by the fact that one of these units serves the purpose of a macro mechanic -this problem is compounded by the nature of spawn larvae -not having to spend any larvae on units before 70 drones and 3 bases (vs 3 OC terran) while being able to, at any given time, flip the switch into mass ling/roach and baneling production is not balance and should not be standard being able to open roach ling bane blindly and do fine against virtually any terran build (Stephano, dongraegu) is not balanced and should not be standard what the result is terrans opening stupidly aggressive or stupidly defensive and crossing their fingers for a build order win this is not starcraft, zerg is currently not having to play a reactive matchup in ANY matchup except for zvz (if you think massing roaches against protoss into 15 min broods on 4 bases while protoss fights off your maxed army with 150/200 supply is reactive you are fooling yourself, btw) and when you give the race with the strongest production potential the ability to play blindly you are only setting yourself up for RTS disaster my 2cents | ||
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SGdiony
Germany7 Posts
Btw. i like those "just adept lol, you are bad players" comments- from i bet not even masters on NA guys.... | ||
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CaF-Lunar
Germany126 Posts
On June 24 2012 07:27 c0sm0naut wrote: 1.2k random here are my thoughts, i am heavily biased against zerg, so quoting me and pointing that out won't change my opinion. i am here to advocate for terran and protoss because i currently think the zerg race is faceroll status easy: -changing the fundamental interactions of two units nearly ubiquitous in all tvz matches was a very bad idea to begin with -this problem is compounded by the fact that one of these units serves the purpose of a macro mechanic -this problem is compounded by the nature of spawn larvae -not having to spend any larvae on units before 70 drones and 3 bases (vs 3 OC terran) while being able to, at any given time, flip the switch into mass ling/roach and baneling production is not balance and should not be standard being able to open roach ling bane blindly and do fine against virtually any terran build (Stephano, dongraegu) is not balanced and should not be standard what the result is terrans opening stupidly aggressive or stupidly defensive and crossing their fingers for a build order win this is not starcraft, zerg is currently not having to play a reactive matchup in ANY matchup except for zvz (if you think massing roaches against protoss into 15 min broods on 4 bases while protoss fights off your maxed army with 150/200 supply is reactive you are fooling yourself, btw) and when you give the race with the strongest production potential the ability to play blindly you are only setting yourself up for RTS disaster my 2cents random :D | ||
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