|
This thread is going nowhere and I'm tired of dealing with it. Either drop the personal attacks and whining and replace it with actual discussion or it'll be closed.
12:09 KST Page 98 |
On June 24 2012 07:40 SGdiony wrote:
Just reverting the Queens Range back to 4 would help so much. No Zerg was screaming "give me queens with 6 range so i can play ultra greedy without getting punished"
Btw. i like those "just adept lol, you are bad players" comments- from i bet not even masters on NA guys....
4 range is too much. 5 range is too much. what happened to the original idea of 50 energy starting for queens
why not? at this point anything sounds better because i do agree that hellions were sniping tumor too easily (if u went for injects w/ first 2 queens) however i disagree that zerg can be contained with 4 hellion like blizzard has stated, i think that is stubbornness to adapt to the fact that hellions (prepatch) countered queens/lings and you had to make 2-3 roaches to take your third.
|
Hey guys... I just wanted to talk about something really quick.
I would like to go ahead and state that I play zerg at mid-high masters and I also have a terran and protoss accout at low masters. Although I do cannot offer specifics, I think we need to change the discussion here a little bit.
I will be the first one to tell you that ZvT is very zerg favored right now. However, I think that this thread has turned into nothing but people complaining about the matchup instead of doing anything about it. Yes, I realize that zerg is strong. Yes I realize queens let zergs get tons of drones and set them up great for lategame. Yes I agree that in the current meta, zergs late-game is much stronger than terrans in most situations. These are all things that have been established. There is litterally no point to have people come in here and just state these facts over and over again. I have been following this thread since the beginning, and very few posts have actually talked about a change in current terran playstyle.
In ZvP, protoss complained about the 4 range roach for a while, and had a tough time forge expanding. When the infestor was buffed, protoss complained that mass blink stalker no longer worked against zerg, who began switching to ling/infestor instead of roach hydra. The fact that patches can greatly change the normal path of a game is well established. Yes, we realized that pre-patch strategies no longer work post-patch.
Now that I have this established, I would like to ask everyone who posts to offer something to the discussion more than just "wow queens too stronk," or "zerg so op, queens make all hellion openers useless".
I would also like to offer a suggestion to hopefully get something started. Please note, I am a much higher level zerg than I am terran, but I am just offering ideas:
What we have established:
-New queen buff has allowed zerg to power drones and take a quick third base, relying on a 6 queen defence.
-Zergs will now open with no gas untill they take a third base, around 6 minutes
-Hellions are no longer a good opener, as zergs can still spread creep, protect drones, and take a fast 3rd base (defeating the main uses of the hellion opener).
-As a side effect of mass queens, zergs get absurd creep spead.
-With this early eco advantage, zergs can easily go infestor ultra/brood which easily defeats the current terran meta (marine + tank)
I think with this new level of creepspread, it is no longer effective to scan for creep tumors. They can be replaced so easily that I think it is almost necessary to make a raven in order to remove creep. One Idea that I can think of is maybe opening 1 rax double expand (make sure to sac scv/scan for gas to make sure no roach/bling attacks are incoming) and maybe trying to get a fast raven to try to keep under control. With ling speed so late, hellions or marines will be free to cross the map safely to remove creep, pick off queens, etc. Remember that by going mass queen, zergs give up map control. I think that if you continue to produce ravens that early, late game they will have alot of energy and, if spread properly to avoid fungals, HSM can be very effective against broods, while the PDD is very good against corrupters (to assist in winning air battle). I also think mech + ravens (maybe even a few ghost for emp) is still very strong lategame, no matter the zerg composition (also remember that you can spend extra minerals on mass orbital so that you can sac SCV to get stronger army). I think maybe this should be experimented with in order to combat the zerg's strong lategame.
Sorry for the long post, but I feel that it is very useless to keep complaining to eachother that zerg is strong in the current meta. Maybe my idea is awful, but atleast we can do something more productive that just complaining. Blizzard does not read TL (or, atleast not all 70 pages of this thread) and I doubt they would nerf zerg just because of this thread.
|
50 energy rly? No offense but do you even play the same game? that would be ridiculously overpowered.
Hellions didn't counter creepspread they just forced the zerg to build something else then pure drones if he wants to spread his creep fast. Now you get both... for free... without any micro needed.
|
On June 24 2012 07:22 redruMBunny wrote:Show nested quote +This is a bit of a sidenote, but the extra energy is also kind of a problem. I have a diamond level Terran practice buddy (because my PvT sucks). He recently played a masters Zerg and went for the old reactored hellions. He got shut down pretty hard as expected. AFTER that, the Z just built a creep highway with his 6-7 queens all the way to his base and won with pretty much a queen hydra push. Its a bit ridiculous, but it shows how a runaway Zerg with extra queens can do a lot of damage. Given how bad my PvT is, maybe I'll just start playing Z against T, lol. So you had a diamond level Terran go against a masters Zerg. The diamond level Terran lost. Isn't that to be expected? I don't think I would say queen buff is imba based on that. If you had a grand master Terran play against a diamond Zerg, and the Zerg won, perhaps. But this is the other way around. It sounds to me like your buddy lost because of imbalanced skill levels, not because of imba queen. Your buddy got "shut down hard", which means your buddy did something wrong. There are so many mistakes that are easy to make with hellions. If you a-move, you can get surrounded and picked off by speedlings easy, even outside a base. If you're in a base, and you run in, you can often get speedlings running down from the main then getting a surround, then killing those hellions off pretty fast with queen/colony plus those lings. If you don't micro hellions, they attack buildings, which is really really sad. I mean seriously. But if you manage it right, hellions should never get "shut down hard". They are fast, a lot faster than marines, plus they have AOE. It sounds to me like your buddy thought he was going to lose so made a desperation play, or got careless, or something, and lost a chunk of stuff. But he would probably have gotten slammed even prebuff Queen, or so it seems to me. If you run hellions in, you really need to be prepared to turn around and run away, and it sounds like your buddy just did not do that. Granted speedlings are faster than hellions, especially on creep. But even so, you shouldn't sustain a huge chunk of casualties if you are prepared to run. You should only lose 1-2 Hellions to pursuing speedlings if you manage the retreat well, and especially if you have a bit of reinforcement. So your buddy was behind at that point after failing Hellions. Then what happened? Apparently your buddy had so much lack of map control that the Zerg built a creep highway all the way to his base. That's understandable, especially after a big loss (which again shouldn't have happened). But your buddy lost so much map control that the Zerg creep was allowed to spread that much? Your buddy lost that game anyways. Queens didn't have much to do with it at that point. He happened to lose to queen/hydra, but he would have lost to mass roach or speedling/baneling or just about anything. Anyways if your buddy is still trying to do things the old way, what's the surprise when he loses? If your buddy hasn't adjusted play style after a month, and your buddy's trying to force the game like it played pre patch, it shouldn't be a surprise when he loses, whether he was diamond, grand master, or bronze.
It´s not like the buff to queens opened up any timings or weaknesses that could be exploited. On creep queens are now just better ground to ground fighters then roaches. More range more health and same DPS. On top of that they are the best early game anti air and they are casters. They were pretty strong before the patch, but at least you could outmicro them with groundunits. If zergs play like they played before they are far safer now. If they adapt and play as safe as before they can build more drones and a earlier 3rd now. Zerg just got buffed all around.
If there was a build that terrans could use to balance out the MU this build was already possible before the patch. And it would have been overpowered before the patch. You can be pretty sure that someone would have found that overpowered build by now. I am pretty sure there is no such build.
The only way to adapt to this patch is either to all in or to macro cheese.
|
On June 24 2012 07:27 c0sm0naut wrote:
1.2k random here are my thoughts, i am heavily biased against zerg, so quoting me and pointing that out won't change my opinion. i am here to advocate for terran and protoss because i currently think the zerg race is faceroll status easy:
-changing the fundamental interactions of two units nearly ubiquitous in all tvz matches was a very bad idea to begin with
-this problem is compounded by the fact that one of these units serves the purpose of a macro mechanic
-this problem is compounded by the nature of spawn larvae
-not having to spend any larvae on units before 70 drones and 3 bases (vs 3 OC terran) while being able to, at any given time, flip the switch into mass ling/roach and baneling production is not balance and should not be standard
being able to open roach ling bane blindly and do fine against virtually any terran build (Stephano, dongraegu) is not balanced and should not be standard
what the result is
terrans opening stupidly aggressive or stupidly defensive and crossing their fingers for a build order win
this is not starcraft, zerg is currently not having to play a reactive matchup in ANY matchup except for zvz (if you think massing roaches against protoss into 15 min broods on 4 bases while protoss fights off your maxed army with 150/200 supply is reactive you are fooling yourself, btw) and when you give the race with the strongest production potential the ability to play blindly you are only setting yourself up for RTS disaster
my 2cents
Completely agree.
|
On June 24 2012 07:52 Crookie wrote:
Hey guys... I just wanted to talk about something really quick.
I would like to go ahead and state that I play zerg at mid-high masters and I also have a terran and protoss accout at low masters. Although I do cannot offer specifics, I think we need to change the discussion here a little bit.
I will be the first one to tell you that ZvT is very zerg favored right now. However, I think that this thread has turned into nothing but people complaining about the matchup instead of doing anything about it. Yes, I realize that zerg is strong. Yes I realize queens let zergs get tons of drones and set them up great for lategame. Yes I agree that in the current meta, zergs late-game is much stronger than terrans in most situations. These are all things that have been established. There is litterally no point to have people come in here and just state these facts over and over again. I have been following this thread since the beginning, and very few posts have actually talked about a change in current terran playstyle.
In ZvP, protoss complained about the 4 range roach for a while, and had a tough time forge expanding. When the infestor was buffed, protoss complained that mass blink stalker no longer worked against zerg, who began switching to ling/infestor instead of roach hydra. The fact that patches can greatly change the normal path of a game is well established. Yes, we realized that pre-patch strategies no longer work post-patch.
Now that I have this established, I would like to ask everyone who posts to offer something to the discussion more than just "wow queens too stronk," or "zerg so op, queens make all hellion openers useless".
I would also like to offer a suggestion to hopefully get something started. Please note, I am a much higher level zerg than I am terran, but I am just offering ideas:
What we have established:
-New queen buff has allowed zerg to power drones and take a quick third base, relying on a 6 queen defence.
-Zergs will now open with no gas untill they take a third base, around 6 minutes
-Hellions are no longer a good opener, as zergs can still spread creep, protect drones, and take a fast 3rd base (defeating the main uses of the hellion opener).
-As a side effect of mass queens, zergs get absurd creep spead.
-With this early eco advantage, zergs can easily go infestor ultra/brood which easily defeats the current terran meta (marine + tank)
I think with this new level of creepspread, it is no longer effective to scan for creep tumors. They can be replaced so easily that I think it is almost necessary to make a raven in order to remove creep. One Idea that I can think of is maybe opening 1 rax double expand (make sure to sac scv/scan for gas to make sure no roach/bling attacks are incoming) and maybe trying to get a fast raven to try to keep under control. With ling speed so late, hellions or marines will be free to cross the map safely to remove creep, pick off queens, etc. Remember that by going mass queen, zergs give up map control. I think that if you continue to produce ravens that early, late game they will have alot of energy and, if spread properly to avoid fungals, HSM can be very effective against broods, while the PDD is very good against corrupters (to assist in winning air battle). I also think mech + ravens (maybe even a few ghost for emp) is still very strong lategame, no matter the zerg composition (also remember that you can spend extra minerals on mass orbital so that you can sac SCV to get stronger army). I think maybe this should be experimented with in order to combat the zerg's strong lategame.
Sorry for the long post, but I feel that it is very useless to keep complaining to eachother that zerg is strong in the current meta. Maybe my idea is awful, but atleast we can do something more productive that just complaining. Blizzard does not read TL (or, atleast not all 70 pages of this thread) and I doubt they would nerf zerg just because of this thread.
Couple of things about this is
1.) Bio Pressure without Stim will only work with proxied rax with how slow Bio is ( its just 2.25 even slow Lings offcreep are considerably faster ) on just about every Map 2.) Ravens early mean later tanks/medivacs and are useless IF he goes anything but Air 3.) Fungal Growth will put but big wrench into anything involving Raven considering 6 range against 9.. 4.) Mech = 3 Bases stuck and no chance to take more then 3 Bases while also not beeing able to take out Zergbases because you have to play deathballstyle with your 1.975-2.25 speed army . Which means you play i build 1 army and hope to kill you with it before you reach something i can't kill...
I and probably just about every Terran did experiment with this in practise/ladder etc. If you're not seeing it in casted pro-games there's going to be a reason for it. That reason beeing it ain't that good.
|
On June 24 2012 08:04 s3rp wrote:Show nested quote +On June 24 2012 07:52 Crookie wrote:
Hey guys... I just wanted to talk about something really quick.
I would like to go ahead and state that I play zerg at mid-high masters and I also have a terran and protoss accout at low masters. Although I do cannot offer specifics, I think we need to change the discussion here a little bit.
I will be the first one to tell you that ZvT is very zerg favored right now. However, I think that this thread has turned into nothing but people complaining about the matchup instead of doing anything about it. Yes, I realize that zerg is strong. Yes I realize queens let zergs get tons of drones and set them up great for lategame. Yes I agree that in the current meta, zergs late-game is much stronger than terrans in most situations. These are all things that have been established. There is litterally no point to have people come in here and just state these facts over and over again. I have been following this thread since the beginning, and very few posts have actually talked about a change in current terran playstyle.
In ZvP, protoss complained about the 4 range roach for a while, and had a tough time forge expanding. When the infestor was buffed, protoss complained that mass blink stalker no longer worked against zerg, who began switching to ling/infestor instead of roach hydra. The fact that patches can greatly change the normal path of a game is well established. Yes, we realized that pre-patch strategies no longer work post-patch.
Now that I have this established, I would like to ask everyone who posts to offer something to the discussion more than just "wow queens too stronk," or "zerg so op, queens make all hellion openers useless".
I would also like to offer a suggestion to hopefully get something started. Please note, I am a much higher level zerg than I am terran, but I am just offering ideas:
What we have established:
-New queen buff has allowed zerg to power drones and take a quick third base, relying on a 6 queen defence.
-Zergs will now open with no gas untill they take a third base, around 6 minutes
-Hellions are no longer a good opener, as zergs can still spread creep, protect drones, and take a fast 3rd base (defeating the main uses of the hellion opener).
-As a side effect of mass queens, zergs get absurd creep spead.
-With this early eco advantage, zergs can easily go infestor ultra/brood which easily defeats the current terran meta (marine + tank)
I think with this new level of creepspread, it is no longer effective to scan for creep tumors. They can be replaced so easily that I think it is almost necessary to make a raven in order to remove creep. One Idea that I can think of is maybe opening 1 rax double expand (make sure to sac scv/scan for gas to make sure no roach/bling attacks are incoming) and maybe trying to get a fast raven to try to keep under control. With ling speed so late, hellions or marines will be free to cross the map safely to remove creep, pick off queens, etc. Remember that by going mass queen, zergs give up map control. I think that if you continue to produce ravens that early, late game they will have alot of energy and, if spread properly to avoid fungals, HSM can be very effective against broods, while the PDD is very good against corrupters (to assist in winning air battle). I also think mech + ravens (maybe even a few ghost for emp) is still very strong lategame, no matter the zerg composition (also remember that you can spend extra minerals on mass orbital so that you can sac SCV to get stronger army). I think maybe this should be experimented with in order to combat the zerg's strong lategame.
Sorry for the long post, but I feel that it is very useless to keep complaining to eachother that zerg is strong in the current meta. Maybe my idea is awful, but atleast we can do something more productive that just complaining. Blizzard does not read TL (or, atleast not all 70 pages of this thread) and I doubt they would nerf zerg just because of this thread. Couple of things about this is 1.) Bio Pressure without Stim will only work with proxied rax with how slow Bio is ( its just 2.25 even slow Lings offcreep are considerably faster ) on just about every Map 2.) Ravens early mean later tanks/medivacs and are useless IF he goes anything but Air 3.) Fungal Growth will put but big wrench into anything involving Raven considering 6 range against 9.. 4.) Mech = 3 Bases stuck and no chance to take more then 3 Bases while also not beeing able to take out Zergbases because you have to play deathballstyle with your 1.975-2.25 speed army . I did experiment with this it is much worse than the now worse strats of old. Mech is not that good. Ravens are frustratingly BAD.
Ok, fair enough. One thing I would like to state is that maybe bio is not viable anymore (atleast at this point). I feel like the maxed mech army is much much stronger, and how things are going in TvZ right now, it seems that playing for the late game is the only viable option. If you open bio, and want to have a strong late game, you will be stuck with a bunch of barracks and useless bio upgrades. I am suggesting that maybe terrans open hellions + raven to clear creep early game. Even slow lings on creep cant touch the hellions, and both the hellions and raven will complement your lategame army.
With fungal growth + ravens, if you spread you ravens well enough (similar to mutas in a ZvZ), it will take waaaay too many fungals to lock down ALL the ravens, and it only takes 2 or 3 HSM to destroy broodlords. And if they try to focus the ravens with corruptors, the ravens can still PDD while fungaled to protect them long enough for vikings + thors to kill them.
As I said before, I do not expect this to be the solution to all terran's TvZ problems, but I am just hoping to get the ball rolling in respect to new theorycrafting. It is quite obvious that the current terran strategies from pre-patch do not work anymore, and I think a drastic change will need to take effect.
|
On June 24 2012 08:13 Crookie wrote:Show nested quote +On June 24 2012 08:04 s3rp wrote:On June 24 2012 07:52 Crookie wrote:
Hey guys... I just wanted to talk about something really quick.
I would like to go ahead and state that I play zerg at mid-high masters and I also have a terran and protoss accout at low masters. Although I do cannot offer specifics, I think we need to change the discussion here a little bit.
I will be the first one to tell you that ZvT is very zerg favored right now. However, I think that this thread has turned into nothing but people complaining about the matchup instead of doing anything about it. Yes, I realize that zerg is strong. Yes I realize queens let zergs get tons of drones and set them up great for lategame. Yes I agree that in the current meta, zergs late-game is much stronger than terrans in most situations. These are all things that have been established. There is litterally no point to have people come in here and just state these facts over and over again. I have been following this thread since the beginning, and very few posts have actually talked about a change in current terran playstyle.
In ZvP, protoss complained about the 4 range roach for a while, and had a tough time forge expanding. When the infestor was buffed, protoss complained that mass blink stalker no longer worked against zerg, who began switching to ling/infestor instead of roach hydra. The fact that patches can greatly change the normal path of a game is well established. Yes, we realized that pre-patch strategies no longer work post-patch.
Now that I have this established, I would like to ask everyone who posts to offer something to the discussion more than just "wow queens too stronk," or "zerg so op, queens make all hellion openers useless".
I would also like to offer a suggestion to hopefully get something started. Please note, I am a much higher level zerg than I am terran, but I am just offering ideas:
What we have established:
-New queen buff has allowed zerg to power drones and take a quick third base, relying on a 6 queen defence.
-Zergs will now open with no gas untill they take a third base, around 6 minutes
-Hellions are no longer a good opener, as zergs can still spread creep, protect drones, and take a fast 3rd base (defeating the main uses of the hellion opener).
-As a side effect of mass queens, zergs get absurd creep spead.
-With this early eco advantage, zergs can easily go infestor ultra/brood which easily defeats the current terran meta (marine + tank)
I think with this new level of creepspread, it is no longer effective to scan for creep tumors. They can be replaced so easily that I think it is almost necessary to make a raven in order to remove creep. One Idea that I can think of is maybe opening 1 rax double expand (make sure to sac scv/scan for gas to make sure no roach/bling attacks are incoming) and maybe trying to get a fast raven to try to keep under control. With ling speed so late, hellions or marines will be free to cross the map safely to remove creep, pick off queens, etc. Remember that by going mass queen, zergs give up map control. I think that if you continue to produce ravens that early, late game they will have alot of energy and, if spread properly to avoid fungals, HSM can be very effective against broods, while the PDD is very good against corrupters (to assist in winning air battle). I also think mech + ravens (maybe even a few ghost for emp) is still very strong lategame, no matter the zerg composition (also remember that you can spend extra minerals on mass orbital so that you can sac SCV to get stronger army). I think maybe this should be experimented with in order to combat the zerg's strong lategame.
Sorry for the long post, but I feel that it is very useless to keep complaining to eachother that zerg is strong in the current meta. Maybe my idea is awful, but atleast we can do something more productive that just complaining. Blizzard does not read TL (or, atleast not all 70 pages of this thread) and I doubt they would nerf zerg just because of this thread. Couple of things about this is 1.) Bio Pressure without Stim will only work with proxied rax with how slow Bio is ( its just 2.25 even slow Lings offcreep are considerably faster ) on just about every Map 2.) Ravens early mean later tanks/medivacs and are useless IF he goes anything but Air 3.) Fungal Growth will put but big wrench into anything involving Raven considering 6 range against 9.. 4.) Mech = 3 Bases stuck and no chance to take more then 3 Bases while also not beeing able to take out Zergbases because you have to play deathballstyle with your 1.975-2.25 speed army . I did experiment with this it is much worse than the now worse strats of old. Mech is not that good. Ravens are frustratingly BAD. Ok, fair enough. One thing I would like to state is that maybe bio is not viable anymore (atleast at this point). I feel like the maxed mech army is much much stronger, and how things are going in TvZ right now, it seems that playing for the late game is the only viable option. If you open bio, and want to have a strong late game, you will be stuck with a bunch of barracks and useless bio upgrades. I am suggesting that maybe terrans open hellions + raven to clear creep early game. Even slow lings on creep cant touch the hellions, and both the hellions and raven will complement your lategame army. With fungal growth + ravens, if you spread you ravens well enough (similar to mutas in a ZvZ), it will take waaaay too many fungals to lock down ALL the ravens, and it only takes 2 or 3 HSM to destroy broodlords. And if they try to focus the ravens with corruptors, the ravens can still PDD while fungaled to protect them long enough for vikings + thors to kill them. As I said before, I do not expect this to be the solution to all terran's TvZ problems, but I am just hoping to get the ball rolling in respect to new theorycrafting. It is quite obvious that the current terran strategies from pre-patch do not work anymore, and I think a drastic change will need to take effect.
1. I don't see how Raven Helion does anything to an opening with 4 Queens on creep duty ..... I mean you see the tumors but you'll lose alot of Helion/Raven life for what a bit of Energy ? Even if you don't need to scan creep turmors can be replanted so fast.
2. 2-3 HSM's kill clumped Broodlords. Even slightly spread ones need at least 5-6 . The splash is very small but Zerg and Toss players don't know that because it rarely gets used ( try in in Unittester you'll be seriously underwhelmed by HSM ) The worse thing about Ravens is they are extremely Energy ineffecient. Every single one of their spell is pretty expensive . 50 ( this spell is also useless ... ),100 and 125 and they only have 200 Energy. You shoot 1 HSM mean you will have 2 useless supply afterwards so you better make sure those 125 Energy meant something ( which is hard to do )
|
On June 24 2012 07:54 SGdiony wrote:
50 energy rly? No offense but do you even play the same game? that would be ridiculously overpowered.
Hellions didn't counter creepspread they just forced the zerg to build something else then pure drones if he wants to spread his creep fast. Now you get both... for free... without any micro needed.
i think it's better than queens countering:
2 rax
all reaper openings
hellion banshee double expand
pick your poison, if queens start with 50 energy, yes you can spread the creep early on, but that is a one time benefit. 5 range lasts all game and really does damage the above openings in many ways. yes, we are playing the same game, but probably playing differently 
|
|
|
On June 24 2012 08:13 Crookie wrote:Show nested quote +On June 24 2012 08:04 s3rp wrote:On June 24 2012 07:52 Crookie wrote:
Hey guys... I just wanted to talk about something really quick.
I would like to go ahead and state that I play zerg at mid-high masters and I also have a terran and protoss accout at low masters. Although I do cannot offer specifics, I think we need to change the discussion here a little bit.
I will be the first one to tell you that ZvT is very zerg favored right now. However, I think that this thread has turned into nothing but people complaining about the matchup instead of doing anything about it. Yes, I realize that zerg is strong. Yes I realize queens let zergs get tons of drones and set them up great for lategame. Yes I agree that in the current meta, zergs late-game is much stronger than terrans in most situations. These are all things that have been established. There is litterally no point to have people come in here and just state these facts over and over again. I have been following this thread since the beginning, and very few posts have actually talked about a change in current terran playstyle.
In ZvP, protoss complained about the 4 range roach for a while, and had a tough time forge expanding. When the infestor was buffed, protoss complained that mass blink stalker no longer worked against zerg, who began switching to ling/infestor instead of roach hydra. The fact that patches can greatly change the normal path of a game is well established. Yes, we realized that pre-patch strategies no longer work post-patch.
Now that I have this established, I would like to ask everyone who posts to offer something to the discussion more than just "wow queens too stronk," or "zerg so op, queens make all hellion openers useless".
I would also like to offer a suggestion to hopefully get something started. Please note, I am a much higher level zerg than I am terran, but I am just offering ideas:
What we have established:
-New queen buff has allowed zerg to power drones and take a quick third base, relying on a 6 queen defence.
-Zergs will now open with no gas untill they take a third base, around 6 minutes
-Hellions are no longer a good opener, as zergs can still spread creep, protect drones, and take a fast 3rd base (defeating the main uses of the hellion opener).
-As a side effect of mass queens, zergs get absurd creep spead.
-With this early eco advantage, zergs can easily go infestor ultra/brood which easily defeats the current terran meta (marine + tank)
I think with this new level of creepspread, it is no longer effective to scan for creep tumors. They can be replaced so easily that I think it is almost necessary to make a raven in order to remove creep. One Idea that I can think of is maybe opening 1 rax double expand (make sure to sac scv/scan for gas to make sure no roach/bling attacks are incoming) and maybe trying to get a fast raven to try to keep under control. With ling speed so late, hellions or marines will be free to cross the map safely to remove creep, pick off queens, etc. Remember that by going mass queen, zergs give up map control. I think that if you continue to produce ravens that early, late game they will have alot of energy and, if spread properly to avoid fungals, HSM can be very effective against broods, while the PDD is very good against corrupters (to assist in winning air battle). I also think mech + ravens (maybe even a few ghost for emp) is still very strong lategame, no matter the zerg composition (also remember that you can spend extra minerals on mass orbital so that you can sac SCV to get stronger army). I think maybe this should be experimented with in order to combat the zerg's strong lategame.
Sorry for the long post, but I feel that it is very useless to keep complaining to eachother that zerg is strong in the current meta. Maybe my idea is awful, but atleast we can do something more productive that just complaining. Blizzard does not read TL (or, atleast not all 70 pages of this thread) and I doubt they would nerf zerg just because of this thread. Couple of things about this is 1.) Bio Pressure without Stim will only work with proxied rax with how slow Bio is ( its just 2.25 even slow Lings offcreep are considerably faster ) on just about every Map 2.) Ravens early mean later tanks/medivacs and are useless IF he goes anything but Air 3.) Fungal Growth will put but big wrench into anything involving Raven considering 6 range against 9.. 4.) Mech = 3 Bases stuck and no chance to take more then 3 Bases while also not beeing able to take out Zergbases because you have to play deathballstyle with your 1.975-2.25 speed army . I did experiment with this it is much worse than the now worse strats of old. Mech is not that good. Ravens are frustratingly BAD. Ok, fair enough. One thing I would like to state is that maybe bio is not viable anymore (atleast at this point). I feel like the maxed mech army is much much stronger, and how things are going in TvZ right now, it seems that playing for the late game is the only viable option. If you open bio, and want to have a strong late game, you will be stuck with a bunch of barracks and useless bio upgrades. I am suggesting that maybe terrans open hellions + raven to clear creep early game. Even slow lings on creep cant touch the hellions, and both the hellions and raven will complement your lategame army. With fungal growth + ravens, if you spread you ravens well enough (similar to mutas in a ZvZ), it will take waaaay too many fungals to lock down ALL the ravens, and it only takes 2 or 3 HSM to destroy broodlords. And if they try to focus the ravens with corruptors, the ravens can still PDD while fungaled to protect them long enough for vikings + thors to kill them. As I said before, I do not expect this to be the solution to all terran's TvZ problems, but I am just hoping to get the ball rolling in respect to new theorycrafting. It is quite obvious that the current terran strategies from pre-patch do not work anymore, and I think a drastic change will need to take effect.
I love mech but some of the maps are just too big for it to work. Think about mech on Atlantis Spaceship. By the time you maxed out and got across the map zerg would have the entire map and a ridiculous trustfund with 100+ larvae.
|
Am I the only terran losing a lot of fights? I max out, move out, and they crush my composition with basicly anything...
|
On June 24 2012 08:21 Snowbear wrote:
Am I the only terran losing a lot of fights? I max out, move out, and they crush my composition with basicly anything...
happens all the time to me doesnt matter any point in the game i cant do anything :D
|
On June 24 2012 08:13 Crookie wrote:Show nested quote +On June 24 2012 08:04 s3rp wrote:On June 24 2012 07:52 Crookie wrote:
Hey guys... I just wanted to talk about something really quick.
I would like to go ahead and state that I play zerg at mid-high masters and I also have a terran and protoss accout at low masters. Although I do cannot offer specifics, I think we need to change the discussion here a little bit.
I will be the first one to tell you that ZvT is very zerg favored right now. However, I think that this thread has turned into nothing but people complaining about the matchup instead of doing anything about it. Yes, I realize that zerg is strong. Yes I realize queens let zergs get tons of drones and set them up great for lategame. Yes I agree that in the current meta, zergs late-game is much stronger than terrans in most situations. These are all things that have been established. There is litterally no point to have people come in here and just state these facts over and over again. I have been following this thread since the beginning, and very few posts have actually talked about a change in current terran playstyle.
In ZvP, protoss complained about the 4 range roach for a while, and had a tough time forge expanding. When the infestor was buffed, protoss complained that mass blink stalker no longer worked against zerg, who began switching to ling/infestor instead of roach hydra. The fact that patches can greatly change the normal path of a game is well established. Yes, we realized that pre-patch strategies no longer work post-patch.
Now that I have this established, I would like to ask everyone who posts to offer something to the discussion more than just "wow queens too stronk," or "zerg so op, queens make all hellion openers useless".
I would also like to offer a suggestion to hopefully get something started. Please note, I am a much higher level zerg than I am terran, but I am just offering ideas:
What we have established:
-New queen buff has allowed zerg to power drones and take a quick third base, relying on a 6 queen defence.
-Zergs will now open with no gas untill they take a third base, around 6 minutes
-Hellions are no longer a good opener, as zergs can still spread creep, protect drones, and take a fast 3rd base (defeating the main uses of the hellion opener).
-As a side effect of mass queens, zergs get absurd creep spead.
-With this early eco advantage, zergs can easily go infestor ultra/brood which easily defeats the current terran meta (marine + tank)
I think with this new level of creepspread, it is no longer effective to scan for creep tumors. They can be replaced so easily that I think it is almost necessary to make a raven in order to remove creep. One Idea that I can think of is maybe opening 1 rax double expand (make sure to sac scv/scan for gas to make sure no roach/bling attacks are incoming) and maybe trying to get a fast raven to try to keep under control. With ling speed so late, hellions or marines will be free to cross the map safely to remove creep, pick off queens, etc. Remember that by going mass queen, zergs give up map control. I think that if you continue to produce ravens that early, late game they will have alot of energy and, if spread properly to avoid fungals, HSM can be very effective against broods, while the PDD is very good against corrupters (to assist in winning air battle). I also think mech + ravens (maybe even a few ghost for emp) is still very strong lategame, no matter the zerg composition (also remember that you can spend extra minerals on mass orbital so that you can sac SCV to get stronger army). I think maybe this should be experimented with in order to combat the zerg's strong lategame.
Sorry for the long post, but I feel that it is very useless to keep complaining to eachother that zerg is strong in the current meta. Maybe my idea is awful, but atleast we can do something more productive that just complaining. Blizzard does not read TL (or, atleast not all 70 pages of this thread) and I doubt they would nerf zerg just because of this thread. Couple of things about this is 1.) Bio Pressure without Stim will only work with proxied rax with how slow Bio is ( its just 2.25 even slow Lings offcreep are considerably faster ) on just about every Map 2.) Ravens early mean later tanks/medivacs and are useless IF he goes anything but Air 3.) Fungal Growth will put but big wrench into anything involving Raven considering 6 range against 9.. 4.) Mech = 3 Bases stuck and no chance to take more then 3 Bases while also not beeing able to take out Zergbases because you have to play deathballstyle with your 1.975-2.25 speed army . I did experiment with this it is much worse than the now worse strats of old. Mech is not that good. Ravens are frustratingly BAD. Ok, fair enough. One thing I would like to state is that maybe bio is not viable anymore (atleast at this point). I feel like the maxed mech army is much much stronger, and how things are going in TvZ right now, it seems that playing for the late game is the only viable option. If you open bio, and want to have a strong late game, you will be stuck with a bunch of barracks and useless bio upgrades. I am suggesting that maybe terrans open hellions + raven to clear creep early game. Even slow lings on creep cant touch the hellions, and both the hellions and raven will complement your lategame army. With fungal growth + ravens, if you spread you ravens well enough (similar to mutas in a ZvZ), it will take waaaay too many fungals to lock down ALL the ravens, and it only takes 2 or 3 HSM to destroy broodlords. And if they try to focus the ravens with corruptors, the ravens can still PDD while fungaled to protect them long enough for vikings + thors to kill them. As I said before, I do not expect this to be the solution to all terran's TvZ problems, but I am just hoping to get the ball rolling in respect to new theorycrafting. It is quite obvious that the current terran strategies from pre-patch do not work anymore, and I think a drastic change will need to take effect.
I guess mass hellion into mech will work rather well if zergs skip the rw and fail to scout it. Statistically this may even work better now then before the patch, because blind roach warrens may be less common now.
|
On June 24 2012 08:20 SnipedSoul wrote:Show nested quote +On June 24 2012 08:13 Crookie wrote:On June 24 2012 08:04 s3rp wrote:On June 24 2012 07:52 Crookie wrote:
Hey guys... I just wanted to talk about something really quick.
I would like to go ahead and state that I play zerg at mid-high masters and I also have a terran and protoss accout at low masters. Although I do cannot offer specifics, I think we need to change the discussion here a little bit.
I will be the first one to tell you that ZvT is very zerg favored right now. However, I think that this thread has turned into nothing but people complaining about the matchup instead of doing anything about it. Yes, I realize that zerg is strong. Yes I realize queens let zergs get tons of drones and set them up great for lategame. Yes I agree that in the current meta, zergs late-game is much stronger than terrans in most situations. These are all things that have been established. There is litterally no point to have people come in here and just state these facts over and over again. I have been following this thread since the beginning, and very few posts have actually talked about a change in current terran playstyle.
In ZvP, protoss complained about the 4 range roach for a while, and had a tough time forge expanding. When the infestor was buffed, protoss complained that mass blink stalker no longer worked against zerg, who began switching to ling/infestor instead of roach hydra. The fact that patches can greatly change the normal path of a game is well established. Yes, we realized that pre-patch strategies no longer work post-patch.
Now that I have this established, I would like to ask everyone who posts to offer something to the discussion more than just "wow queens too stronk," or "zerg so op, queens make all hellion openers useless".
I would also like to offer a suggestion to hopefully get something started. Please note, I am a much higher level zerg than I am terran, but I am just offering ideas:
What we have established:
-New queen buff has allowed zerg to power drones and take a quick third base, relying on a 6 queen defence.
-Zergs will now open with no gas untill they take a third base, around 6 minutes
-Hellions are no longer a good opener, as zergs can still spread creep, protect drones, and take a fast 3rd base (defeating the main uses of the hellion opener).
-As a side effect of mass queens, zergs get absurd creep spead.
-With this early eco advantage, zergs can easily go infestor ultra/brood which easily defeats the current terran meta (marine + tank)
I think with this new level of creepspread, it is no longer effective to scan for creep tumors. They can be replaced so easily that I think it is almost necessary to make a raven in order to remove creep. One Idea that I can think of is maybe opening 1 rax double expand (make sure to sac scv/scan for gas to make sure no roach/bling attacks are incoming) and maybe trying to get a fast raven to try to keep under control. With ling speed so late, hellions or marines will be free to cross the map safely to remove creep, pick off queens, etc. Remember that by going mass queen, zergs give up map control. I think that if you continue to produce ravens that early, late game they will have alot of energy and, if spread properly to avoid fungals, HSM can be very effective against broods, while the PDD is very good against corrupters (to assist in winning air battle). I also think mech + ravens (maybe even a few ghost for emp) is still very strong lategame, no matter the zerg composition (also remember that you can spend extra minerals on mass orbital so that you can sac SCV to get stronger army). I think maybe this should be experimented with in order to combat the zerg's strong lategame.
Sorry for the long post, but I feel that it is very useless to keep complaining to eachother that zerg is strong in the current meta. Maybe my idea is awful, but atleast we can do something more productive that just complaining. Blizzard does not read TL (or, atleast not all 70 pages of this thread) and I doubt they would nerf zerg just because of this thread. Couple of things about this is 1.) Bio Pressure without Stim will only work with proxied rax with how slow Bio is ( its just 2.25 even slow Lings offcreep are considerably faster ) on just about every Map 2.) Ravens early mean later tanks/medivacs and are useless IF he goes anything but Air 3.) Fungal Growth will put but big wrench into anything involving Raven considering 6 range against 9.. 4.) Mech = 3 Bases stuck and no chance to take more then 3 Bases while also not beeing able to take out Zergbases because you have to play deathballstyle with your 1.975-2.25 speed army . I did experiment with this it is much worse than the now worse strats of old. Mech is not that good. Ravens are frustratingly BAD. Ok, fair enough. One thing I would like to state is that maybe bio is not viable anymore (atleast at this point). I feel like the maxed mech army is much much stronger, and how things are going in TvZ right now, it seems that playing for the late game is the only viable option. If you open bio, and want to have a strong late game, you will be stuck with a bunch of barracks and useless bio upgrades. I am suggesting that maybe terrans open hellions + raven to clear creep early game. Even slow lings on creep cant touch the hellions, and both the hellions and raven will complement your lategame army. With fungal growth + ravens, if you spread you ravens well enough (similar to mutas in a ZvZ), it will take waaaay too many fungals to lock down ALL the ravens, and it only takes 2 or 3 HSM to destroy broodlords. And if they try to focus the ravens with corruptors, the ravens can still PDD while fungaled to protect them long enough for vikings + thors to kill them. As I said before, I do not expect this to be the solution to all terran's TvZ problems, but I am just hoping to get the ball rolling in respect to new theorycrafting. It is quite obvious that the current terran strategies from pre-patch do not work anymore, and I think a drastic change will need to take effect. I love mech but some of the maps are just too big for it to work. Think about mech on Atlantis Spaceship. By the time you maxed out and got across the map zerg would have the entire map and a ridiculous trustfund with 100+ larvae.
When players say mech is immobile it turns into a defeatist mentality :|
Just because the core of your army should be used with caution and precision doesn't mean you can't make a few banshees, ravens, or medivacs to drop hellions.
I see a lot of defeatist shit in this thread
|
On June 24 2012 08:18 s3rp wrote:Show nested quote +On June 24 2012 08:13 Crookie wrote:On June 24 2012 08:04 s3rp wrote:On June 24 2012 07:52 Crookie wrote:
Hey guys... I just wanted to talk about something really quick.
I would like to go ahead and state that I play zerg at mid-high masters and I also have a terran and protoss accout at low masters. Although I do cannot offer specifics, I think we need to change the discussion here a little bit.
I will be the first one to tell you that ZvT is very zerg favored right now. However, I think that this thread has turned into nothing but people complaining about the matchup instead of doing anything about it. Yes, I realize that zerg is strong. Yes I realize queens let zergs get tons of drones and set them up great for lategame. Yes I agree that in the current meta, zergs late-game is much stronger than terrans in most situations. These are all things that have been established. There is litterally no point to have people come in here and just state these facts over and over again. I have been following this thread since the beginning, and very few posts have actually talked about a change in current terran playstyle.
In ZvP, protoss complained about the 4 range roach for a while, and had a tough time forge expanding. When the infestor was buffed, protoss complained that mass blink stalker no longer worked against zerg, who began switching to ling/infestor instead of roach hydra. The fact that patches can greatly change the normal path of a game is well established. Yes, we realized that pre-patch strategies no longer work post-patch.
Now that I have this established, I would like to ask everyone who posts to offer something to the discussion more than just "wow queens too stronk," or "zerg so op, queens make all hellion openers useless".
I would also like to offer a suggestion to hopefully get something started. Please note, I am a much higher level zerg than I am terran, but I am just offering ideas:
What we have established:
-New queen buff has allowed zerg to power drones and take a quick third base, relying on a 6 queen defence.
-Zergs will now open with no gas untill they take a third base, around 6 minutes
-Hellions are no longer a good opener, as zergs can still spread creep, protect drones, and take a fast 3rd base (defeating the main uses of the hellion opener).
-As a side effect of mass queens, zergs get absurd creep spead.
-With this early eco advantage, zergs can easily go infestor ultra/brood which easily defeats the current terran meta (marine + tank)
I think with this new level of creepspread, it is no longer effective to scan for creep tumors. They can be replaced so easily that I think it is almost necessary to make a raven in order to remove creep. One Idea that I can think of is maybe opening 1 rax double expand (make sure to sac scv/scan for gas to make sure no roach/bling attacks are incoming) and maybe trying to get a fast raven to try to keep under control. With ling speed so late, hellions or marines will be free to cross the map safely to remove creep, pick off queens, etc. Remember that by going mass queen, zergs give up map control. I think that if you continue to produce ravens that early, late game they will have alot of energy and, if spread properly to avoid fungals, HSM can be very effective against broods, while the PDD is very good against corrupters (to assist in winning air battle). I also think mech + ravens (maybe even a few ghost for emp) is still very strong lategame, no matter the zerg composition (also remember that you can spend extra minerals on mass orbital so that you can sac SCV to get stronger army). I think maybe this should be experimented with in order to combat the zerg's strong lategame.
Sorry for the long post, but I feel that it is very useless to keep complaining to eachother that zerg is strong in the current meta. Maybe my idea is awful, but atleast we can do something more productive that just complaining. Blizzard does not read TL (or, atleast not all 70 pages of this thread) and I doubt they would nerf zerg just because of this thread. Couple of things about this is 1.) Bio Pressure without Stim will only work with proxied rax with how slow Bio is ( its just 2.25 even slow Lings offcreep are considerably faster ) on just about every Map 2.) Ravens early mean later tanks/medivacs and are useless IF he goes anything but Air 3.) Fungal Growth will put but big wrench into anything involving Raven considering 6 range against 9.. 4.) Mech = 3 Bases stuck and no chance to take more then 3 Bases while also not beeing able to take out Zergbases because you have to play deathballstyle with your 1.975-2.25 speed army . I did experiment with this it is much worse than the now worse strats of old. Mech is not that good. Ravens are frustratingly BAD. Ok, fair enough. One thing I would like to state is that maybe bio is not viable anymore (atleast at this point). I feel like the maxed mech army is much much stronger, and how things are going in TvZ right now, it seems that playing for the late game is the only viable option. If you open bio, and want to have a strong late game, you will be stuck with a bunch of barracks and useless bio upgrades. I am suggesting that maybe terrans open hellions + raven to clear creep early game. Even slow lings on creep cant touch the hellions, and both the hellions and raven will complement your lategame army. With fungal growth + ravens, if you spread you ravens well enough (similar to mutas in a ZvZ), it will take waaaay too many fungals to lock down ALL the ravens, and it only takes 2 or 3 HSM to destroy broodlords. And if they try to focus the ravens with corruptors, the ravens can still PDD while fungaled to protect them long enough for vikings + thors to kill them. As I said before, I do not expect this to be the solution to all terran's TvZ problems, but I am just hoping to get the ball rolling in respect to new theorycrafting. It is quite obvious that the current terran strategies from pre-patch do not work anymore, and I think a drastic change will need to take effect. 1. I don't see how Raven Helion does anything to an opening with 4 Queens on creep duty ..... I mean you see the tumors but you'll lose alot of Helion/Raven life for what a bit of Energy ? Even if you don't need to scan creep turmors can be replanted so fast. 2. 2-3 HSM's kill clumped Broodlords. Even slightly spread ones need at least 5-6 . The splash is very small but Zerg and Toss players don't know that because it rarely gets used ( try in in Unittester you'll be seriously underwhelmed by HSM )
PDD can stop queen auto-attack, and if you are going mech, hellions are essentially free (while gas will be your limiting factor in terms of unit production). I dont think hellion/raven can outright kill the queens (although possible), but it atleast offers some potential option to try to control the creep.
While I agree that HSM is not very strong against spread units, It can still do a decent amount of damage to them, and mainly, it can help your vikings beat the corruptors outright. While fungals may be a problem, I think even 2-3 ghosts could offer some help. Also, spreading you own air units will help alot. And even though spreading broodlords can help vs HSM, its better than letting the zerg ball up and a-move. Similar to in PvZ, the mothership is not near as effective against broods if they are spread out, but the mothership does 2 things:
1. If the zerg does slip up on their micro for 1 seconds, their entire army is gone and the game is over.
2. It forces to zerg to split up their broods, which makes it a little bit more managable to take them out.
Also remember that if you produce the ravens so early in the game, by the lategame, they will all be full on energy. Even if HSM doesnt do insane amounts of damage, you will have a shitton of them (plus PDD, which is very underrated against late game zerg)
|
On June 24 2012 08:29 Probe1 wrote:Show nested quote +On June 24 2012 08:20 SnipedSoul wrote:On June 24 2012 08:13 Crookie wrote:On June 24 2012 08:04 s3rp wrote:On June 24 2012 07:52 Crookie wrote:
Hey guys... I just wanted to talk about something really quick.
I would like to go ahead and state that I play zerg at mid-high masters and I also have a terran and protoss accout at low masters. Although I do cannot offer specifics, I think we need to change the discussion here a little bit.
I will be the first one to tell you that ZvT is very zerg favored right now. However, I think that this thread has turned into nothing but people complaining about the matchup instead of doing anything about it. Yes, I realize that zerg is strong. Yes I realize queens let zergs get tons of drones and set them up great for lategame. Yes I agree that in the current meta, zergs late-game is much stronger than terrans in most situations. These are all things that have been established. There is litterally no point to have people come in here and just state these facts over and over again. I have been following this thread since the beginning, and very few posts have actually talked about a change in current terran playstyle.
In ZvP, protoss complained about the 4 range roach for a while, and had a tough time forge expanding. When the infestor was buffed, protoss complained that mass blink stalker no longer worked against zerg, who began switching to ling/infestor instead of roach hydra. The fact that patches can greatly change the normal path of a game is well established. Yes, we realized that pre-patch strategies no longer work post-patch.
Now that I have this established, I would like to ask everyone who posts to offer something to the discussion more than just "wow queens too stronk," or "zerg so op, queens make all hellion openers useless".
I would also like to offer a suggestion to hopefully get something started. Please note, I am a much higher level zerg than I am terran, but I am just offering ideas:
What we have established:
-New queen buff has allowed zerg to power drones and take a quick third base, relying on a 6 queen defence.
-Zergs will now open with no gas untill they take a third base, around 6 minutes
-Hellions are no longer a good opener, as zergs can still spread creep, protect drones, and take a fast 3rd base (defeating the main uses of the hellion opener).
-As a side effect of mass queens, zergs get absurd creep spead.
-With this early eco advantage, zergs can easily go infestor ultra/brood which easily defeats the current terran meta (marine + tank)
I think with this new level of creepspread, it is no longer effective to scan for creep tumors. They can be replaced so easily that I think it is almost necessary to make a raven in order to remove creep. One Idea that I can think of is maybe opening 1 rax double expand (make sure to sac scv/scan for gas to make sure no roach/bling attacks are incoming) and maybe trying to get a fast raven to try to keep under control. With ling speed so late, hellions or marines will be free to cross the map safely to remove creep, pick off queens, etc. Remember that by going mass queen, zergs give up map control. I think that if you continue to produce ravens that early, late game they will have alot of energy and, if spread properly to avoid fungals, HSM can be very effective against broods, while the PDD is very good against corrupters (to assist in winning air battle). I also think mech + ravens (maybe even a few ghost for emp) is still very strong lategame, no matter the zerg composition (also remember that you can spend extra minerals on mass orbital so that you can sac SCV to get stronger army). I think maybe this should be experimented with in order to combat the zerg's strong lategame.
Sorry for the long post, but I feel that it is very useless to keep complaining to eachother that zerg is strong in the current meta. Maybe my idea is awful, but atleast we can do something more productive that just complaining. Blizzard does not read TL (or, atleast not all 70 pages of this thread) and I doubt they would nerf zerg just because of this thread. Couple of things about this is 1.) Bio Pressure without Stim will only work with proxied rax with how slow Bio is ( its just 2.25 even slow Lings offcreep are considerably faster ) on just about every Map 2.) Ravens early mean later tanks/medivacs and are useless IF he goes anything but Air 3.) Fungal Growth will put but big wrench into anything involving Raven considering 6 range against 9.. 4.) Mech = 3 Bases stuck and no chance to take more then 3 Bases while also not beeing able to take out Zergbases because you have to play deathballstyle with your 1.975-2.25 speed army . I did experiment with this it is much worse than the now worse strats of old. Mech is not that good. Ravens are frustratingly BAD. Ok, fair enough. One thing I would like to state is that maybe bio is not viable anymore (atleast at this point). I feel like the maxed mech army is much much stronger, and how things are going in TvZ right now, it seems that playing for the late game is the only viable option. If you open bio, and want to have a strong late game, you will be stuck with a bunch of barracks and useless bio upgrades. I am suggesting that maybe terrans open hellions + raven to clear creep early game. Even slow lings on creep cant touch the hellions, and both the hellions and raven will complement your lategame army. With fungal growth + ravens, if you spread you ravens well enough (similar to mutas in a ZvZ), it will take waaaay too many fungals to lock down ALL the ravens, and it only takes 2 or 3 HSM to destroy broodlords. And if they try to focus the ravens with corruptors, the ravens can still PDD while fungaled to protect them long enough for vikings + thors to kill them. As I said before, I do not expect this to be the solution to all terran's TvZ problems, but I am just hoping to get the ball rolling in respect to new theorycrafting. It is quite obvious that the current terran strategies from pre-patch do not work anymore, and I think a drastic change will need to take effect. I love mech but some of the maps are just too big for it to work. Think about mech on Atlantis Spaceship. By the time you maxed out and got across the map zerg would have the entire map and a ridiculous trustfund with 100+ larvae. When players say mech is immobile it turns into a defeatist mentality :| Just because the core of your army should be used with caution and precision doesn't mean you can't make a few banshees, ravens, or medivacs to drop hellions. I see a lot of defeatist shit in this thread
Banshees and Helion do NOTHING once even the slightest bit of base defense is up not even in TvT.
|
I don't understand why some people are arguing in favor of balance.
Almost EVERY pro Terran-- yea that's right pro not random poster on TL-- says the matchup became completely imbalanced after the Queen buff.
Hell, DRG, Catz, idra, and Stephano even say Z has the advantage-- DRG even laughed in an interview and said he wants a group with 3 Terrans.
MKP said his winrate in tvz went from 60% to 10%. Ryung says he can't even beat NA Zergs. If you are INSANELY better than your opponent, you should win.
No bullshit about "metagame" should even come into discussion. Ryung should roll Ostojiy 10 times in a row, but this patch has really made it impossible for Terran to take advantage of being more skilled because literally nothing in the game can punish mass queen/drone 3 base.
Hell, watch Dimaga vs Brat-ok at Dreamhack. 9 Queens, 3 base, 80 drones at 8:30. That should NOT be standard or possible.
|
On June 24 2012 07:25 Toadvine wrote:
Being accused of trolling by someone who believes Zerg cannot simcity their natural. Oh TL, you can be so funny sometimes. The entire post is great in general, especially the part about how easy it is to keep Medivacs and Tanks alive, as opposed to Infestors. If you ever played Protoss and tried to use Sentries and High Templar, it'd totally blow your mind, mang.
Hm, you should let Dongraegu know he sucks because he doesn't simcity his natural in the ZvT matchup. Come to think of it, I don't recall Stephano running simcity standard in ZvT either. I'm pretty impressed that you're so much better than either of them. But then, I guess I was meant to be impressed, right?
Infestors have 90 hp and no base armor (usually you'll have 2-3 with upgrades), speed 2.25. If zerg are losing, you run, and infestors are typically the slowest thing on the ground, so they get picked off. Fungals keep a lot alive, and you can leave some lings around to run interference, but even with a range of 9 on Fungal, you end up losing infestors regularly.
Medivacs have 150 hp base 1 armor. Medivacs fly. Tanks have 160 hp base 1 armor (probably all unless you're going mech, in which case you DO have more), and a range of 13 in siege. Often you won't be in siege mode, of course, but then if you're not in siege, you can be grabbed up by a medivac. Zerg aren't renowned for their antiair. You don't see hydra standard versus marine/tank, and you don't see mutas frontlining to hunt medivacs. About the worst you'll typically get is Fungal on a group of medivacs, but even a good single fungal on a medivac group won't decide the course of a pitched ZvT battle. Zerg priority targets are bio masses. Tanks and medivacs get killed afterwards.
It's not that infestors are super easy to pick off. Or even regularly easy. Actually, they're not easy to pick off at all! (So if I wrote something of that sort, well, I wasn't paying attention at the time.) But Terrans have a little more time to protect tanks/medivacs with their marine screen plus better hp/armor/ability to avoid attacks. You shouldn't be losing a big Terran gas investment early unless you make a serious error, unlike Zerg, which need to lose gas regularly and fairly early just to stay competitive (not that this makes Zerg weak ofc).
|
On June 24 2012 08:19 c0sm0naut wrote:Show nested quote +On June 24 2012 07:54 SGdiony wrote:
50 energy rly? No offense but do you even play the same game? that would be ridiculously overpowered.
Hellions didn't counter creepspread they just forced the zerg to build something else then pure drones if he wants to spread his creep fast. Now you get both... for free... without any micro needed. i think it's better than queens countering: 2 rax all reaper openings hellion banshee double expand pick your poison, if queens start with 50 energy, yes you can spread the creep early on, but that is a one time benefit. 5 range lasts all game and really does damage the above openings in many ways. yes, we are playing the same game, but probably playing differently
I kind of like that idea, but there will also be more transfuses. Maybe something like 50 starting energy and transfuse for 75 energy. Maybe they could even raise the max energy on queens to allow a certain number of transfuses.
|
|
|
|
|
|
EPT![[image loading]](http://nasl.tv/content/uploads/nasls3/nasl_wildcard_playoffs_03.jpg)
