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On June 16 2012 03:25 TeslaTrooper wrote:
Isn't the warhound supposed to do less damage to nonmechanical units?
It has an ability which does direct damage to mechanical units. From the stats, it appears to more than double the damage of the opening volly of shots. It does not fire at the same rate as the basic attack, which still does pretty reasonable damage as it is. The ability does not interupt the basic attack, but it is unclear if it can be used on a seperate target from the basic attack.
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On June 16 2012 03:29 Plansix wrote:Show nested quote +On June 16 2012 03:25 TeslaTrooper wrote:
Isn't the warhound supposed to do less damage to nonmechanical units? It has an ability which does direct damage to mechanical units. From the stats, it appears to more than double the damage of the opening volly of shots. It does not fire at the same rate as the basic attack, which still does pretty reasonable damage as it is. The ability does not interupt the basic attack, but it is unclear if it can be used on a seperate target from the basic attack.
I wonder if it uses it against biological units, although for less damage of course. Would be weird not you use those rocket against biological units if there are no mechanical units nearby.
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On June 16 2012 03:11 Andr3 wrote:
The only unit I hope just gets removed from the game completely is the warhound. It just overlaps with other units too much and it's so boring wtf. Stop with this " we want to make terran more a-move friendly", do it in a different way please.
Hope to see mech viable, just the way they're doing it now is that you play defensively and get that ball up.(at least that's what i gather from the interviews) They should watch Fantasy play BW and make mech like that!
To me the warhound looks like the opposite of an a-move unit. Your missiles are on a fairly decent cooldown, so if you are fighting stalkers for example, you want to pick some off with missiles and back off. Against siege tanks it might be viable to run them within 7 range, tank some siege tank hits, pick off some tanks with missiles, and then back off before marines can react or second volley of siege tank fire hits.
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On June 16 2012 03:11 Andr3 wrote:
The only unit I hope just gets removed from the game completely is the warhound. It just overlaps with other units too much and it's so boring wtf. Stop with this " we want to make terran more a-move friendly", do it in a different way please.
Hope to see mech viable, just the way they're doing it now is that you play defensively and get that ball up.(at least that's what i gather from the interviews) They should watch Fantasy play BW and make mech like that!
I completely disagree with this. I think Terran needs a non-niche supply effective unit. I'd love for the unit to be less a-move friendly, provided it could be done without making it some cutsie unit that doesn't do anything, and isn't dependent off of energy. I don't think we'll see that, though. The widow mine is a great example of how Blizzard is trying to design units in a way that isn't working. They want to make a unit where one person acts and another reacts - but if they make the reaction too easy, no one will use it - and if they make a reaction too difficult, they risk breaking the matchup. At a high level, the space between "too difficult" and "too easy" becomes almost nothing - it's either you make it always work or you make it never work.
I think the fact that you say this unit is nothing special implies you don't really understand it. As far as non-cutesie units are concerned, I think the warhound is a lot better than most of what's out there. For more of my thoughts, I wrote a blog on this unit: http://www.teamliquid.net/blogs/viewblog.php?topic_id=345180 .
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On June 16 2012 02:07 zmansman17 wrote:Show nested quote +On June 15 2012 22:30 GinDo wrote:On June 15 2012 22:14 Garmer wrote:On June 15 2012 22:10 Patate wrote:
Warhound is 2 supply and 220hp.... this is the real tanking unit. What is wrong with Blizzard? Remember in BW how many terran units had more hp than a zealot? one.. the BattleCruiser.. this was a cool aspect in BW, race were more identified, by these things Terran were the defensive race Protoss the powerful, with units that have more Hp and zerg were fragile but more massable now everything is a fucking protoss ps. you forgot two other units, vessel and valkirye I know. Blizzard is trying to patch every hole in each race, and is basically taking away what is unique about each race. -For example they killed the swarm feel of Zerg with their 2food Roach and 2food Hydra, and their 6food Ultra. Zerg is about having big Eco in order to pay for your masses of non-cost efficient units. -Mech is dead, and we have Blizzard trying to kill the Siege Tank and replace it with Robo Marauders with massive HP. Terran is supposed to be the defensive glass cannon race. -And poor protoss has the weakest units in the game short of their T3 AOE. Protoss is supposed to be the expensive and strongest units. WTH Blizzard? This has been a concern of mine as well. Zerg not only has the advantage of Economy, but their units are also as or more cost efficient than Terran's units EVEN in a defensive position. Polt v. Stephano at MLG. MVP v. Hosin. Zergs can just swarm a Terran attack and trade units evenly, or even at an advantage while building up 4-5 hatcheries to Terran's 2-3. It just seems that Zerg gets the best of both worlds. They have the economy and units that neuter defensive, and ostensibly "cost efficient defensive positions". The problem is even in WoL, and probably even moreso in HotS with the viper, the "defensive position" doesn't even exist. As a rank 1 master Terran, I've never had so much trouble this and last season v. Zerg where I will set up a strong contain (bunkers, tanks, upgrades) and Zerg can just A move their army and then from watching the replay, they trade more cost efficiently than I do. Wtf.
It used to be that a Tank position actually meant something. Everything these days have so much HP and Run really. Most tanks only take 1 shot before dieing.
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On June 16 2012 03:27 Sapphire.lux wrote:Show nested quote +On June 16 2012 03:18 Plansix wrote:On June 16 2012 03:05 Jermstuddog wrote:On June 16 2012 02:50 Plansix wrote:On June 15 2012 23:49 BillClinton wrote:
I think the tank should receive some love Like a bunch of units that come out of the factor to support them so they can deal out the damage they need to! What they really need is a cheap, mineral based unit to keep chargelots and zerglings at bay. That would allow the terran to protect their more gas heavy units and use positioning to soak up the aggression of their opponent. Then the tanks can do their dirty work. Oh yeah, and they need high-burst damage potential to deal with blink stalkers. This unit needs to make sure that agressive blinks are costly though high burst damage. If terran has that, they can protect both tanks and vikings against stalkers. If only they would add those things. The tanks would love it so! It looks like you're trying to be sarcastic here, but tanks being non-viable in TvP has been one of the most long-standing gripes in SC2, and for good reason. BW TvP is a MU that deserves to be desired. Both sides seemed OP as fuck, but both sides also had to tech the wrong way to keep from dying. In BW TvP, Terran wants nothing more than to have this massive spread of siege tanks continually pushing up into the Protoss base. Unfortunately, that damn Protoss player keeps dropping Zealots everywhere and being sneaky with DTs, forcing T to get Goliaths, vultures, and missile turrets in key locations to stop that bullshit. If P would just stop that shit, TvP would be ezpz for the Terran side. Equally, Protoss has this unit called the Dragoon, which can kill damn near anything cost effectively through the early and mid stages of the game. Unfortunately, that Terran asshole put mines ALL OVER THE FUCKING MAP, I can't even get to his base and just kill him like I should be able to... WHAT KIND OF BULLSHIT IS THAT. And the whole entire game of TvP becomes countering counters to the counter that keeps me from killing you... Damn I miss that MU. I am being sarcastic, it is one of my best talents. Until we get these units in hand, we won't know what units are viable or not. I don't think terran will ever go mass tank, but all factory play may be an option. Blizzard seems commited to making it an option as well. No one is arguing that. People are debaiting how that factory play will actualy look, and are woried that it might be just a buffed up version of bio. In short, that Tanks will act just as support units making mech borring, or similar to other styles and ultimatly, mech only in name, not style.
Yeah, we will have to see. As long as warhound and BH need the support of tanks and much as the tanks need them, I think it will be ok. If both units are slow and clunky enough that they can be flanked by faster units, they will need the support of tanks to secure an area. Tanks need to be the back bone, I agree, but not the only unit that is built.
I agee that I don't want another bio-ball, but the units cant be healed by medivacs, have no stim and limited ability to drop. They are not going to be this fast moving ball of damage that heals as it runs.
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On June 16 2012 03:36 Plansix wrote:Show nested quote +On June 16 2012 03:27 Sapphire.lux wrote:On June 16 2012 03:18 Plansix wrote:On June 16 2012 03:05 Jermstuddog wrote:On June 16 2012 02:50 Plansix wrote:On June 15 2012 23:49 BillClinton wrote:
I think the tank should receive some love Like a bunch of units that come out of the factor to support them so they can deal out the damage they need to! What they really need is a cheap, mineral based unit to keep chargelots and zerglings at bay. That would allow the terran to protect their more gas heavy units and use positioning to soak up the aggression of their opponent. Then the tanks can do their dirty work. Oh yeah, and they need high-burst damage potential to deal with blink stalkers. This unit needs to make sure that agressive blinks are costly though high burst damage. If terran has that, they can protect both tanks and vikings against stalkers. If only they would add those things. The tanks would love it so! It looks like you're trying to be sarcastic here, but tanks being non-viable in TvP has been one of the most long-standing gripes in SC2, and for good reason. BW TvP is a MU that deserves to be desired. Both sides seemed OP as fuck, but both sides also had to tech the wrong way to keep from dying. In BW TvP, Terran wants nothing more than to have this massive spread of siege tanks continually pushing up into the Protoss base. Unfortunately, that damn Protoss player keeps dropping Zealots everywhere and being sneaky with DTs, forcing T to get Goliaths, vultures, and missile turrets in key locations to stop that bullshit. If P would just stop that shit, TvP would be ezpz for the Terran side. Equally, Protoss has this unit called the Dragoon, which can kill damn near anything cost effectively through the early and mid stages of the game. Unfortunately, that Terran asshole put mines ALL OVER THE FUCKING MAP, I can't even get to his base and just kill him like I should be able to... WHAT KIND OF BULLSHIT IS THAT. And the whole entire game of TvP becomes countering counters to the counter that keeps me from killing you... Damn I miss that MU. I am being sarcastic, it is one of my best talents. Until we get these units in hand, we won't know what units are viable or not. I don't think terran will ever go mass tank, but all factory play may be an option. Blizzard seems commited to making it an option as well. No one is arguing that. People are debaiting how that factory play will actualy look, and are woried that it might be just a buffed up version of bio. In short, that Tanks will act just as support units making mech borring, or similar to other styles and ultimatly, mech only in name, not style. Tanks need to be the back bone, I agree, but not the only unit that is built.
Yep. But from the admittedly little information we have, this unit looks set replace the Tank as the back bone of a mech army, so we whine about it lol. We'll see.
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On June 16 2012 03:35 GinDo wrote:Show nested quote +On June 16 2012 02:07 zmansman17 wrote:On June 15 2012 22:30 GinDo wrote:On June 15 2012 22:14 Garmer wrote:On June 15 2012 22:10 Patate wrote:
Warhound is 2 supply and 220hp.... this is the real tanking unit. What is wrong with Blizzard? Remember in BW how many terran units had more hp than a zealot? one.. the BattleCruiser.. this was a cool aspect in BW, race were more identified, by these things Terran were the defensive race Protoss the powerful, with units that have more Hp and zerg were fragile but more massable now everything is a fucking protoss ps. you forgot two other units, vessel and valkirye I know. Blizzard is trying to patch every hole in each race, and is basically taking away what is unique about each race. -For example they killed the swarm feel of Zerg with their 2food Roach and 2food Hydra, and their 6food Ultra. Zerg is about having big Eco in order to pay for your masses of non-cost efficient units. -Mech is dead, and we have Blizzard trying to kill the Siege Tank and replace it with Robo Marauders with massive HP. Terran is supposed to be the defensive glass cannon race. -And poor protoss has the weakest units in the game short of their T3 AOE. Protoss is supposed to be the expensive and strongest units. WTH Blizzard? This has been a concern of mine as well. Zerg not only has the advantage of Economy, but their units are also as or more cost efficient than Terran's units EVEN in a defensive position. Polt v. Stephano at MLG. MVP v. Hosin. Zergs can just swarm a Terran attack and trade units evenly, or even at an advantage while building up 4-5 hatcheries to Terran's 2-3. It just seems that Zerg gets the best of both worlds. They have the economy and units that neuter defensive, and ostensibly "cost efficient defensive positions". The problem is even in WoL, and probably even moreso in HotS with the viper, the "defensive position" doesn't even exist. As a rank 1 master Terran, I've never had so much trouble this and last season v. Zerg where I will set up a strong contain (bunkers, tanks, upgrades) and Zerg can just A move their army and then from watching the replay, they trade more cost efficiently than I do. Wtf. It used to be that a Tank position actually meant something. Everything these days have so much HP and Run really. Most tanks only take 1 shot before dieing.
Tank position still matters but they become very hard to use effectively against Hive tech (both BLs and Ultras).
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if Blizzard bring back the old tanks from the WoL Beta and the game will be balanced
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Canada13405 Posts
So, quick question about the mothership, if its losing cloaking ability and it is losing its ability to vortex flying units then at what point does it actually serve a good purpose now? Stasis seems ok but the problem is protoss is losing the only tool it has to kill a heavy broodlord force.
The tempest might be helpful but it shoots so slowly that you would need a lot of them to be able to kill the broodlords :/
Then again I am assuming the game will follow the same patter it does now with brood infestor as a strong lategame composition.
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I might be unique here but I think removing low--> high ground miss chance ruined the game. There's no more strategic positioning that lets races be different. People just herp derp mass stuff and charge them at each other while mixing in some spells and the only way to balance this is to make the races similar.
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On June 16 2012 12:09 ZeromuS wrote:
So, quick question about the mothership, if its losing cloaking ability and it is losing its ability to vortex flying units then at what point does it actually serve a good purpose now? Stasis seems ok but the problem is protoss is losing the only tool it has to kill a heavy broodlord force.
The tempest might be helpful but it shoots so slowly that you would need a lot of them to be able to kill the broodlords :/
Then again I am assuming the game will follow the same patter it does now with brood infestor as a strong lategame composition.
Zergs already have a kill everything or die and kill nothing unit in the broodlord, cannot believe they are adding another one. What the hell...
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Is it just me or is the Warhound a far better stalker? Double the DPS, more health, same speed, more range and only costing 25/25 more? Do they really want to force TvP into an even more midgame Terran, endgame Protoss favoured matchup?
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On June 16 2012 12:26 hummingbird23 wrote:
Is it just me or is the Warhound a far better stalker? Double the DPS, more health, same speed, more range and only costing 25/25 more? Do they really want to force TvP into an even more midgame Terran, endgame Protoss favoured matchup?
It depends on how well you can engage Colossi with Warhounds and how well Battle Helions actually do against Zealots with Colossi and Storm raining doom upon them. I'm still not sure how an immobile will surive the pure carnage of Toss endgame the damage output is so high that i fear mech will melt just like Bio without the potential do avoid the damage since everything is just slower.
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On June 16 2012 12:00 foxj wrote:
if Blizzard bring back the old tanks from the WoL Beta and the game will be balanced
Except that would completely break TvP, the 111 would be impossible to hold.
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United Arab Emirates439 Posts
On June 16 2012 12:39 s3rp wrote:Show nested quote +On June 16 2012 12:26 hummingbird23 wrote:
Is it just me or is the Warhound a far better stalker? Double the DPS, more health, same speed, more range and only costing 25/25 more? Do they really want to force TvP into an even more midgame Terran, endgame Protoss favoured matchup? It depends on how well you can engage Colossi with Warhounds and how well Battle Helions actually do against Zealots with Colossi and Storm raining doom upon them. I'm still not sure how an immobile will surive the pure carnage of Toss endgame the damage output is so high that i fear mech will melt just like Bio without the potential do avoid the damage since everything is just slower.
Templars won't be as useful, especially in the numbers we see them vs Bio, with Siege Tanks out on the field. We will probably have to see Warp Prism's with HT in them to storm drop Mech armies.
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On June 16 2012 13:19 ZjiublingZ wrote:Show nested quote +On June 16 2012 12:39 s3rp wrote:On June 16 2012 12:26 hummingbird23 wrote:
Is it just me or is the Warhound a far better stalker? Double the DPS, more health, same speed, more range and only costing 25/25 more? Do they really want to force TvP into an even more midgame Terran, endgame Protoss favoured matchup? It depends on how well you can engage Colossi with Warhounds and how well Battle Helions actually do against Zealots with Colossi and Storm raining doom upon them. I'm still not sure how an immobile will surive the pure carnage of Toss endgame the damage output is so high that i fear mech will melt just like Bio without the potential do avoid the damage since everything is just slower. Templars won't be as useful, especially in the numbers we see them vs Bio, with Siege Tanks out on the field. We will probably have to see Warp Prism's with HT in them to storm drop Mech armies.
Its very dependent on how good Battle Helions actually deal with Zealots . Right now HT's are very good vs Mech even if you have tanks since Zealots just eat damage like a boss before the HT's get in range of the tanks and then just mob up . Tanks also need 3 shots before they reach +2 damage that makes quite a difference.
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On June 16 2012 13:18 convention wrote:Show nested quote +On June 16 2012 12:00 foxj wrote:
if Blizzard bring back the old tanks from the WoL Beta and the game will be balanced Except that would completely break TvP, the 111 would be impossible to hold.
um, 13 range mothership core that does 60 dmg per shot and has zero tech req?
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On June 09 2012 18:28 Sea_Food wrote:Show nested quote +On June 09 2012 18:24 Miotonir wrote:When I saw widdow mines(cost 75 25) take out all swarm hosts in the demo (cost 200 100) I was like ... switching to terran ... building only widdow mines... GG. Very cool unit  They will prolly make me cry when i try roach bust ling xD This is so exciting Overseer which is 50/50 and all widdow mines are useless.
Damn, you just made the world easier for all of us, man, why do people keep making dts, cloaked banshees, burrowed banelings... Idiot.
Back on OP, holyfuck 7 range on reaper? really? I mean I know we got 5 ranged queens now, but, really? So we're gonna open speedlings early as fuck to avoid getting owned by 3 reapers? Sounds fucked up, need to see this in action tho, apart from that, maaan they seem to have done a good job at correcting themselves. On paper these changes actually seem ok, which is hella surprising to me, I was expecting HOTS to kill SC2 esport for like 8 months before they balance it out, but this should do. At least they got rid of that terran "no more zerglings" mine, and burrowed baneling movement (yeah, even as a zerg, with all my bias I couldnt support this one... Sneaking 5 banelings underneath 10 sentries would have been hella fun, but broken yeah), really really curious to see all that in game now, gj blizzard for not killing your own game (yet)!
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On June 15 2012 23:36 Patate wrote:Show nested quote +On June 15 2012 22:12 Bagi wrote:On June 15 2012 22:10 Patate wrote:
Warhound is 2 supply and 220hp.... this is the real tanking unit. What is wrong with Blizzard? Remember in BW how many terran units had more hp than a zealot? one.. the BattleCruiser.. Don't focus on unit stats too much, I can promise you those will be changed (nerfed to the ground). There's a reason why Blizzard hasn't released these stats anywhere yet. I'm not talking about balance, I'm talking about race design. Terrans should have very low hp, and the only thing that should protect them against a mass of chargelots attacking them are mines and long ranged weapons, NOT high hp to tank.
The problem with that kind of thinking is that, well, what you get is SC1. If you pigeonhole a race to being exactly what they are in SC1, there's no design room left to do anything except make SC1 with prettier graphics. Ultimately, if you're going to make a sequel, you have to accept that some things need to change.
Now, to be fair, there's good change and bad change. Where Blizzard screwed up is that they kept Siege Tanks around, which meant designing all of the Factory stuff around STs. If they had come up with their own idea for Terran Mech, one that fit with the race's design (glass cannons: low Hp, but long range keep-away-style play) but used different parts to achieve it, then they could have created something worthwhile.
But no. Instead, we get nerfed STs, a modified Spider Mine, and random other stuff to cover up for these two. There's no real design; there is just balance.
On June 15 2012 23:36 Patate wrote:
Edit: Again, I am talking about race design, NOT balance. The fact that marauders and warhounds exist just prove that Blizzard doesn't know what terrans are about (judging by BW standards). Don't forget that BW and SC2 devs aren't the same.. some important stuff seems to have been lost in the transition.
It's a matter of priority. Blizzard doesn't care what the Terrans "are about". They only care about balance. And in terms of balance, Marauders are actually a good thing. In SC1, the entire production line from the Barracks was rendered virtually useless in TvP by the Protoss having two really, really good AoE options. Reavers murder M&M by the dozens, and HT kill them quick and easy too.
Marauders aren't as weak to AoE. They have lots of HP; they can take a hit. Coupled with the replacement of Reavers with Colossi (lower burst AoE per-unit cost), this means that Barracks play actually works against the Protoss.
Thus the needs of balance are served: Terrans in SC2 have more options against the Protoss (well, technically. WoL only gives them Bio-play, so it's a lateral move. HotS looks to actually give them the two options they're supposed to have).
Now, one could make the argument that you could get the same effect without giving the Terrans a Protoss unit. I'm not quite sure how, but it's theoretically possible. My point is that Blizzard's decision is legitimate; they're simply prioritizing game balance and gameplay options over issues like unit design.
Blizzard's failing here is a failure of imagination, the lack of will to achieve the needs of balance while working within each race's unit design. The Roach is a perfect example of this.
Originally, the Roach was all about being a high Hp Zerg unit without the high Hp. It relied on fast regeneration to survive engagements. As a mid-ranged unit, it would make for a good wall for Hydralisks; as such, it was Tier 2.
That didn't last. The regen mechanic wasn't working in testing with the Roach, but for the sake of balance, they needed Roaches to be damage sponges. Basically, early-game mini-Ultralisks. So they abandoned the regen concept, opting instead for high Hp. The exact thing that they were trying to avoid.
Blizzard did this a lot in the development of SC2. They'd come up with some nifty, unique concept, but the balance wouldn't work out, so they stuffed it and went with something generic. It happened all the time. The Colossus was once an experiment in making a single-target, high damage unit work without AoE. You might notice the Colossus now has AoE, so we see how well that worked.
What Blizzard needed to do was dedicate themselves to making the game work within the design space. If something wasn't working within that space, then they needed to fix that instead of ignoring their design limitations. Too often, Blizzard would remove some critical piece from a unit, but still keep the unit itself because something needed to be in that space, and it may as well be that unit. There seemed to be a pretty huge hesitation on Blizzard's part to actually cut something that wasn't working and replace it with something that does work.
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