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On June 15 2012 22:14 Garmer wrote:Show nested quote +On June 15 2012 22:10 Patate wrote:
Warhound is 2 supply and 220hp.... this is the real tanking unit. What is wrong with Blizzard? Remember in BW how many terran units had more hp than a zealot? one.. the BattleCruiser.. this was a cool aspect in BW, race were more identified, by these things Terran were the defensive race Protoss the powerful, with units that have more Hp and zerg were fragile but more massable now everything is a fucking protoss ps. you forgot two other units, vessel and valkirye
I know. Blizzard is trying to patch every hole in each race, and is basically taking away what is unique about each race.
-For example they killed the swarm feel of Zerg with their 2food Roach and 2food Hydra, and their 6food Ultra. Zerg is about having big Eco in order to pay for your masses of non-cost efficient units.
-Mech is dead, and we have Blizzard trying to kill the Siege Tank and replace it with Robo Marauders with massive HP. Terran is supposed to be the defensive glass cannon race.
-And poor protoss has the weakest units in the game short of their T3 AOE. Protoss is supposed to be the expensive and strongest units.
WTH Blizzard?
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On June 15 2012 22:06 Bagi wrote:
Goliaths and vikings overlap too much to co-exist.
If you want "goliaths" back, tell Blizz to buff viking ground mode.
Vikings are actually decent in ground mode, they almost trade with stalkers and un-stimed marauders and beat roaches.
I don't understand why they don't make the ground mode benefit from ground mech upgrades...then they could realy act like goliaths and eliminate some of this ridiculous situations where a Terran looses because he was forced to make them and ends up with useless supply.
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On June 15 2012 22:22 Garmer wrote:
i think they can just buff the tank and make widow mine/tank viable versus toss, instead of making a new mech like the warhound, buffing tank would solve this, i know they are afraid that might become too strong in tvz, but with abduct and swarm host, it will be balanced, just buff the damn tank and scrap the warhound/thor and give us goliath
The only time tanks look OP is when they are sieged up right infront of the enemy ramp. But whose fault is that? The enemy should not have let the Terran simply walk over to their base. Terran literally has the weakest ability towards map control.
To many players are turtling at their base instead of roaming the map and then they wonder why tanks are "OP".
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On June 15 2012 22:35 Sapphire.lux wrote:Show nested quote +On June 15 2012 22:06 Bagi wrote:
Goliaths and vikings overlap too much to co-exist.
If you want "goliaths" back, tell Blizz to buff viking ground mode. Vikings are actually decent in ground mode, they almost trade with stalkers and un-stimed marauders and beat roaches. I don't understand why they don't make the ground mode benefit from ground mech upgrades...then they could realy act like goliaths and eliminate some of this ridiculous situations where a Terran looses because he was forced to make them and ends up with useless supply.
Vikings should be made in the Factory like in the Alpha. Then have Flight Mode be an UpGrade.
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On June 15 2012 22:35 Sapphire.lux wrote:Show nested quote +On June 15 2012 22:06 Bagi wrote:
Goliaths and vikings overlap too much to co-exist.
If you want "goliaths" back, tell Blizz to buff viking ground mode. Vikings are actually decent in ground mode, they almost trade with stalkers and un-stimed marauders and beat roaches. I don't understand why they don't make the ground mode benefit from ground mech upgrades...then they could realy act like goliaths and eliminate some of this ridiculous situations where a Terran looses because he was forced to make them and ends up with useless supply.
I think this would be a pretty reasonable buff make Vikings useful units in groundform once upgrades come into play . Because they get shredded in the later stages if you ever land them since you will not have them upgrades that much.
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On June 15 2012 22:22 Garmer wrote:
i think they can just buff the tank and make widow mine/tank viable versus toss, instead of making a new mech like the warhound, buffing tank would solve this, i know they are afraid that might become too strong in tvz, but with abduct and swarm host, it will be balanced, just buff the damn tank and scrap the warhound/thor and give us goliath
Okay, this I can agree with.
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On June 15 2012 22:12 Bagi wrote:Show nested quote +On June 15 2012 22:10 Patate wrote:
Warhound is 2 supply and 220hp.... this is the real tanking unit. What is wrong with Blizzard? Remember in BW how many terran units had more hp than a zealot? one.. the BattleCruiser.. Don't focus on unit stats too much, I can promise you those will be changed (nerfed to the ground). There's a reason why Blizzard hasn't released these stats anywhere yet.
I'm not talking about balance, I'm talking about race design. Terrans should have very low hp, and the only thing that should protect them against a mass of chargelots attacking them are mines and long ranged weapons, NOT high hp to tank.
and Yes (for the comment about zergs being less swarmy), they should try 1 supply roaches (nerfed,of course).. that should make the zergs more about what they should be. Right now, the roach is a stronger zealot, which is just dumb. Protoss should be the ones destroying the other races in a 1 on 1 fight. A stimmed marauder laughs at stalkers, a roach laughs at a zealot. A glance at BW TvP should be made by Blizzard.
I've always seen the Zerg/Protoss dynamic similar to Aliens Vs Predators. A predator should destroy an alien 1on1.. now it's all screwed up.
Edit: Again, I am talking about race design, NOT balance. The fact that marauders and warhounds exist just prove that Blizzard doesn't know what terrans are about (judging by BW standards). Don't forget that BW and SC2 devs aren't the same.. some important stuff seems to have been lost in the transition.
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On June 15 2012 23:36 Patate wrote:Show nested quote +On June 15 2012 22:12 Bagi wrote:On June 15 2012 22:10 Patate wrote:
Warhound is 2 supply and 220hp.... this is the real tanking unit. What is wrong with Blizzard? Remember in BW how many terran units had more hp than a zealot? one.. the BattleCruiser.. Don't focus on unit stats too much, I can promise you those will be changed (nerfed to the ground). There's a reason why Blizzard hasn't released these stats anywhere yet. I'm not talking about balance, I'm talking about race design. Terrans should have very low hp, and the only thing that should protect them against a mass of chargelots attacking them are mines and long ranged weapons, NOT high hp to tank. and Yes (for the comment about zergs being less swarmy), they should try 1 supply roaches (nerfed,of course).. that should make the zergs more about what they should be. Right now, the roach is a stronger zealot, which is just dumb. Protoss should be the ones destroying the other races in a 1 on 1 fight. A stimmed marauder laughs at stalkers, a roach laughs at a zealot. A glance at BW TvP should be made by Blizzard. I've always seen the Zerg/Protoss dynamic similar to Aliens Vs Predators. A predator should destroy an alien 1on1.. now it's all screwed up. Edit: Again, I am talking about race design, NOT balance.
I used to always use the Alien vs. Predator to describe BW to my friends. And that the Terran were the poor sobs that got caught in the middle.
Personally, I have not worry in regards to balance. Blizzard knows how to balance. I am just hating there game design. Zerg is Protoss, Terran is Protoss, and Protoss units are all Scouts.
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I think the tank should receive some love
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On June 15 2012 22:40 s3rp wrote:Show nested quote +On June 15 2012 22:35 Sapphire.lux wrote:On June 15 2012 22:06 Bagi wrote:
Goliaths and vikings overlap too much to co-exist.
If you want "goliaths" back, tell Blizz to buff viking ground mode. Vikings are actually decent in ground mode, they almost trade with stalkers and un-stimed marauders and beat roaches. I don't understand why they don't make the ground mode benefit from ground mech upgrades...then they could realy act like goliaths and eliminate some of this ridiculous situations where a Terran looses because he was forced to make them and ends up with useless supply. I think this would be a pretty reasonable buff make Vikings useful units in groundform once upgrades come into play . Because they get shredded in the later stages if you ever land them since you will not have them upgrades that much.
Yeah that would have been reasonable!
On June 15 2012 23:49 BillClinton wrote:
I think the tank should receive some love
Yeah man, alot of us do!
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On June 15 2012 23:49 BillClinton wrote:
I think the tank should receive some love
Personally I think a lot of units need some love, not just for Terran but for Protoss as well.
I believe the main problem with SC2 in general is Blizzard finds the need to pigeonhole units into one specfic role and require a specific unit composition. For example, Zealots can't do shit on their own vs Zerg, they need Stalkers and/or Sentries. Zealots lack a lot of potential to be anything other than tanking units, and that's gonna be further cemented once the Battle Hellion comes out. Stalkers on the other hand have -a lot- of utility. They can defend, attack, harass, and are very microable increase their overall potential.
But that leads to this silly "Hard Counter" system they implemented. I wasn't a BW gamer, but I'm sure they didn't have a counter system. Well, I guess you could say the Defiler countered the entire Terran Army 'n such, but it's much more extreme in SCII. Things like the Marauder, Immortal, Colossus, Viking, Corrupter, etc. limits the potential that this game has and instead made this clusterfuck of getting out a lot of this specific unit to counter a lot of this other specific unit (Viking/Corrupter vs Colossus, Ghost vs HT, Broodlord vs Mothership, Immortal vs Tank, Infestor vs EVERYTHING), and it only continues in HOTS
This in turn forces players to go into Deathball mode because units literally can't do anything by themselves.
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On June 15 2012 22:30 GinDo wrote:Show nested quote +On June 15 2012 22:14 Garmer wrote:On June 15 2012 22:10 Patate wrote:
Warhound is 2 supply and 220hp.... this is the real tanking unit. What is wrong with Blizzard? Remember in BW how many terran units had more hp than a zealot? one.. the BattleCruiser.. this was a cool aspect in BW, race were more identified, by these things Terran were the defensive race Protoss the powerful, with units that have more Hp and zerg were fragile but more massable now everything is a fucking protoss ps. you forgot two other units, vessel and valkirye I know. Blizzard is trying to patch every hole in each race, and is basically taking away what is unique about each race. -For example they killed the swarm feel of Zerg with their 2food Roach and 2food Hydra, and their 6food Ultra. Zerg is about having big Eco in order to pay for your masses of non-cost efficient units. -Mech is dead, and we have Blizzard trying to kill the Siege Tank and replace it with Robo Marauders with massive HP. Terran is supposed to be the defensive glass cannon race. -And poor protoss has the weakest units in the game short of their T3 AOE. Protoss is supposed to be the expensive and strongest units. WTH Blizzard?
This has been a concern of mine as well. Zerg not only has the advantage of Economy, but their units are also as or more cost efficient than Terran's units EVEN in a defensive position. Polt v. Stephano at MLG. MVP v. Hosin. Zergs can just swarm a Terran attack and trade units evenly, or even at an advantage while building up 4-5 hatcheries to Terran's 2-3.
It just seems that Zerg gets the best of both worlds. They have the economy and units that neuter defensive, and ostensibly "cost efficient defensive positions". The problem is even in WoL, and probably even moreso in HotS with the viper, the "defensive position" doesn't even exist. As a rank 1 master Terran, I've never had so much trouble this and last season v. Zerg where I will set up a strong contain (bunkers, tanks, upgrades) and Zerg can just A move their army and then from watching the replay, they trade more cost efficiently than I do. Wtf.
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On June 15 2012 23:49 BillClinton wrote:
I think the tank should receive some love
Like a bunch of units that come out of the factor to support them so they can deal out the damage they need to! What they really need is a cheap, mineral based unit to keep chargelots and zerglings at bay. That would allow the terran to protect their more gas heavy units and use positioning to soak up the aggression of their opponent. Then the tanks can do their dirty work.
Oh yeah, and they need high-burst damage potential to deal with blink stalkers. This unit needs to make sure that agressive blinks are costly though high burst damage. If terran has that, they can protect both tanks and vikings against stalkers.
If only they would add those things. The tanks would love it so!
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Seriously, with that mine I see "minedrag" evolving to a new dimension... <.<
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On June 16 2012 02:50 Plansix wrote:Show nested quote +On June 15 2012 23:49 BillClinton wrote:
I think the tank should receive some love Like a bunch of units that come out of the factor to support them so they can deal out the damage they need to! What they really need is a cheap, mineral based unit to keep chargelots and zerglings at bay. That would allow the terran to protect their more gas heavy units and use positioning to soak up the aggression of their opponent. Then the tanks can do their dirty work. Oh yeah, and they need high-burst damage potential to deal with blink stalkers. This unit needs to make sure that agressive blinks are costly though high burst damage. If terran has that, they can protect both tanks and vikings against stalkers. If only they would add those things. The tanks would love it so!
It looks like you're trying to be sarcastic here, but tanks being non-viable in TvP has been one of the most long-standing gripes in SC2, and for good reason.
BW TvP is a MU that deserves to be desired. Both sides seemed OP as fuck, but both sides also had to tech the wrong way to keep from dying.
In BW TvP, Terran wants nothing more than to have this massive spread of siege tanks continually pushing up into the Protoss base. Unfortunately, that damn Protoss player keeps dropping Zealots everywhere and being sneaky with DTs, forcing T to get Goliaths, vultures, and missile turrets in key locations to stop that bullshit. If P would just stop that shit, TvP would be ezpz for the Terran side.
Equally, Protoss has this unit called the Dragoon, which can kill damn near anything cost effectively through the early and mid stages of the game. Unfortunately, that Terran asshole put mines ALL OVER THE FUCKING MAP, I can't even get to his base and just kill him like I should be able to... WHAT KIND OF BULLSHIT IS THAT.
And the whole entire game of TvP becomes countering counters to the counter that keeps me from killing you...
Damn I miss that MU.
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The only unit I hope just gets removed from the game completely is the warhound. It just overlaps with other units too much and it's so boring wtf. Stop with this " we want to make terran more a-move friendly", do it in a different way please.
Hope to see mech viable, just the way they're doing it now is that you play defensively and get that ball up.(at least that's what i gather from the interviews) They should watch Fantasy play BW and make mech like that!
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On June 16 2012 03:05 Jermstuddog wrote:Show nested quote +On June 16 2012 02:50 Plansix wrote:On June 15 2012 23:49 BillClinton wrote:
I think the tank should receive some love Like a bunch of units that come out of the factor to support them so they can deal out the damage they need to! What they really need is a cheap, mineral based unit to keep chargelots and zerglings at bay. That would allow the terran to protect their more gas heavy units and use positioning to soak up the aggression of their opponent. Then the tanks can do their dirty work. Oh yeah, and they need high-burst damage potential to deal with blink stalkers. This unit needs to make sure that agressive blinks are costly though high burst damage. If terran has that, they can protect both tanks and vikings against stalkers. If only they would add those things. The tanks would love it so! It looks like you're trying to be sarcastic here, but tanks being non-viable in TvP has been one of the most long-standing gripes in SC2, and for good reason. BW TvP is a MU that deserves to be desired. Both sides seemed OP as fuck, but both sides also had to tech the wrong way to keep from dying. In BW TvP, Terran wants nothing more than to have this massive spread of siege tanks continually pushing up into the Protoss base. Unfortunately, that damn Protoss player keeps dropping Zealots everywhere and being sneaky with DTs, forcing T to get Goliaths, vultures, and missile turrets in key locations to stop that bullshit. If P would just stop that shit, TvP would be ezpz for the Terran side. Equally, Protoss has this unit called the Dragoon, which can kill damn near anything cost effectively through the early and mid stages of the game. Unfortunately, that Terran asshole put mines ALL OVER THE FUCKING MAP, I can't even get to his base and just kill him like I should be able to... WHAT KIND OF BULLSHIT IS THAT. And the whole entire game of TvP becomes countering counters to the counter that keeps me from killing you... Damn I miss that MU.
I am being sarcastic, it is one of my best talents. Until we get these units in hand, we won't know what units are viable or not. I don't think terran will ever go mass tank, but all factory play may be an option. Blizzard seems commited to making it an option as well.
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On June 15 2012 23:36 Patate wrote:Show nested quote +On June 15 2012 22:12 Bagi wrote:On June 15 2012 22:10 Patate wrote:
Warhound is 2 supply and 220hp.... this is the real tanking unit. What is wrong with Blizzard? Remember in BW how many terran units had more hp than a zealot? one.. the BattleCruiser.. Don't focus on unit stats too much, I can promise you those will be changed (nerfed to the ground). There's a reason why Blizzard hasn't released these stats anywhere yet. I'm not talking about balance, I'm talking about race design. Terrans should have very low hp, and the only thing that should protect them against a mass of chargelots attacking them are mines and long ranged weapons, NOT high hp to tank. and Yes (for the comment about zergs being less swarmy), they should try 1 supply roaches (nerfed,of course).. that should make the zergs more about what they should be. Right now, the roach is a stronger zealot, which is just dumb. Protoss should be the ones destroying the other races in a 1 on 1 fight. A stimmed marauder laughs at stalkers, a roach laughs at a zealot. A glance at BW TvP should be made by Blizzard. I've always seen the Zerg/Protoss dynamic similar to Aliens Vs Predators. A predator should destroy an alien 1on1.. now it's all screwed up. Edit: Again, I am talking about race design, NOT balance. The fact that marauders and warhounds exist just prove that Blizzard doesn't know what terrans are about (judging by BW standards). Don't forget that BW and SC2 devs aren't the same.. some important stuff seems to have been lost in the transition.
all this things happened, because too much time has passed between BW and SC2, if SC2 was released , let's say in 2004 at max, would have been a much more faithful sequel
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Isn't the warhound supposed to do less damage to nonmechanical units?
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On June 16 2012 03:18 Plansix wrote:Show nested quote +On June 16 2012 03:05 Jermstuddog wrote:On June 16 2012 02:50 Plansix wrote:On June 15 2012 23:49 BillClinton wrote:
I think the tank should receive some love Like a bunch of units that come out of the factor to support them so they can deal out the damage they need to! What they really need is a cheap, mineral based unit to keep chargelots and zerglings at bay. That would allow the terran to protect their more gas heavy units and use positioning to soak up the aggression of their opponent. Then the tanks can do their dirty work. Oh yeah, and they need high-burst damage potential to deal with blink stalkers. This unit needs to make sure that agressive blinks are costly though high burst damage. If terran has that, they can protect both tanks and vikings against stalkers. If only they would add those things. The tanks would love it so! It looks like you're trying to be sarcastic here, but tanks being non-viable in TvP has been one of the most long-standing gripes in SC2, and for good reason. BW TvP is a MU that deserves to be desired. Both sides seemed OP as fuck, but both sides also had to tech the wrong way to keep from dying. In BW TvP, Terran wants nothing more than to have this massive spread of siege tanks continually pushing up into the Protoss base. Unfortunately, that damn Protoss player keeps dropping Zealots everywhere and being sneaky with DTs, forcing T to get Goliaths, vultures, and missile turrets in key locations to stop that bullshit. If P would just stop that shit, TvP would be ezpz for the Terran side. Equally, Protoss has this unit called the Dragoon, which can kill damn near anything cost effectively through the early and mid stages of the game. Unfortunately, that Terran asshole put mines ALL OVER THE FUCKING MAP, I can't even get to his base and just kill him like I should be able to... WHAT KIND OF BULLSHIT IS THAT. And the whole entire game of TvP becomes countering counters to the counter that keeps me from killing you... Damn I miss that MU. I am being sarcastic, it is one of my best talents. Until we get these units in hand, we won't know what units are viable or not. I don't think terran will ever go mass tank, but all factory play may be an option. Blizzard seems commited to making it an option as well.
No one is arguing that. People are debaiting how that factory play will actualy look, and are woried that it might be just a buffed up version of bio. In short, that Tanks will act just as support units making mech borring, or similar to other styles and ultimatly, mech only in name, not style.
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EPT
