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Suggestions/Philosophy (dont' focus on numbers that would make it unbalanced, just core concepts that can be balanced)
Terrans - I think the idea is to reinforce the "scappyness" of the Humanity. This means you either have small/medium commando-style attacks (i.e. drops, small roving marine bands, maybe some hellion play) and larger entrenched attrition style attacks (mech plays).
- Warhound - seems just like a Vanilla unit, so I am thinking to remove the attack altogether and place it with the Repair (costs energy not minerals) ability, along with the ability to build structures. The missles can stay so that it can contribute to the fight, but I think this type of unit would give mech the right feel. You build up these expensive units, but you also have to take care of them because you can't afford to lose anything. Building structures further contributes to the entrenching feel to it, Bunkers/Turrets, maybe even a Factory or Barracks to shorten the supply line. Requires Tech Lab.
- Widow Mine - from what i hear, it's unbalanced. I'm not a fan of it. rather than try to make the concept work, I think just letting it hit air units would make it good. it is a safer trade (no probe scout kills), and it serves a purpose to provide anti-air for mech. Doesn't Require Tech Lab.
- Reaper - i'd like to see more of this unit. i think regenerating health is a bad idea. i think making it require a Reactor rather than a Tech Lab would address the extremely long build time, which screws with the timing on implementing a Reaper strategy.
- Orbital Command - small nerf for a specific cases (basically just Protoss). invisible or hallucinated units require both detection and unit sight. meaning if you orbital scan, but do not have a unit that has line of sight, then hallucinated units will appear normal and invisible units will not be shown.
Zerg - Should always feel like it's breaking a rule. Either in having an unbelievable amount of units (macro) or coming at odd angles with multipronged attacks.
- Swarm Lord - This unit I feel is just too powerful. Not unbalanced, but invalidating other units. It's a zergling/roach/hyrdralisk all in one. So, i'd change the swarms from ground ranged units to air units with a ground only attack. This let's them work with other units rather than be redundant. Also, it helps with multipronged attacks more, since you don't have to just spawn them and send them forward as if they were just extended range, but rather use their aerial mobility to strike at different places.
- Nydus Network - really like the concept, just think it needs to be more cost efficient. so, i'd change the cost of a Nydus Worm to being energy. Nydus is a tactical skill rather than a strategic (unit) oriented one because honestly, you can always deal with Nydus play, but you just have to deal with it. I think this change would go a long way to encouraging it.
- Overseer - I would change the whole Overlord drop tactic to being a single upgrade (speed + sacs) that an Overseer can cast on an Overlord (graning those abilities). This isn't much of a change, but I'd also like for this ability to grant a new ability and that is for the Overlord to instantly die allowing the units inside to instantly drop.
Protoss - Honestly, some people seem to dislike the deathball, but that's just what it is. Now I think there is diveristy that can be made, and this is the most extensive set of suggestions I have, but I don't think it changes the fundamentals of the race. Robo is about big expensive deathballs, Stargate is more about Warpgate-centric deathballs with air support.
- Sentry - big changes for it, the Immortal, the Warp Prism, and the Void Ray, so keep this in mind. Sentry is going to require a Robotics Facility. It won't build from them, but it'll require it to unlock the unit. Also, the Sentry will lose Guardian Shield (going to Immortal) and automatically have Hallucinate. So, a pretty hefty nerf to Sentries. But I think Hallucinate is much better than people give it credit for, it's just never worth it as an upgrade. However, as a free ability on a unit that is good anyways, I think it'll see much more play. Partly this change is to shift Protss plays along trees, and it seems like the metagame has shifted away from needing early Sentries (or at least earlier than they could after this change) anyways.
- Immortal - can upgrade from the Robotics bay to have Guardian Shield. pretty clearly a buff, I feel like leaving the unit as an "anti-armor" only unit, needlessly limits it. anything that isn't armor and it could attack, is going to be generally better address with Colossus anyways. giving it Guardian Shield makes it a much more well-rounded support units, tanking against high damage units, but also providing support against low damage range units. Part of the thought is that strengthening Immortals might help make it better to go Immortals against Collosus battles. Also it helps disguish it from an otherwise generally better unit the Void Ray.
- Void Ray - now can be built from a Robotics Facility and requires a Robotics Bay. The Stage two attack now requires an upgrade, but you can upgrade it twice to get a Stage three attack. The idea behind building it from a Robotics Facility is that it is more of a death ball unit, rather than a harass unit which is more typical for Stargate play. Also this sets up more strategic balance for robo plays. Mixes between Void Rays, Colossus, and Immortals have different advantages and disadvantages. the natural advantages of coming for Robotics Facility tech are reduced by making it a tier 3 unit.
- Observer - can now be built from either a Stargate or a Robotics Facility. Upgrade moved to Cybernetics Core. I don't want Preordain, I just want to build an Observer. So rather than trying to make some comparable replacement, just let us build Observers.
- Oracle - Remove Preordain. Replace it with nothing. Entomb re-balanced to cost 50 energy, but only cover half of the minerals. Making it only at a best cast high half the minerals, i think adds enough skill that it's not just a fire and forget, but have to make sure you hit them all without any overlaps or missing patches. 50 means that it can go immediately. Cloak will see a bunch of changes and require an upgrade (Cybernetics Core). The 100 energy ability will cause the Oracle to turn switch to cloaking mode where it is stationary (energy is to change to this mode, it is free to stay in the mode), invisibles and causes any building within it's cloak field (same size as a Warp Prism) to become invisible. Other units, however, will not turn invisible. This allows you to use it for defense with cannons or just turning walls or buildings invisible, and importantly allows you to have invisible proxy pylons.
- Warp Prism - is now built from Stargates and has the speed upgrade in the cybernetics core. In theme with the Stargates is Warpgates + air support. I think the lack of stable units to build from the Stargate (meaning it's very situational to get benefits from the units) is a unwanted weakness of Stargate play. With Observers, Warp Prisms and Oracles, it's much more stable to get benefits from building a Stargate.
- Tempest - is a reverse Void Ray. no longer requires a Fleet Beacon, but the upgrade is still there. by reverse Void Ray i mean that it enters into higher DPS stages by not being in combat. this address the severe lack of damage by the unit, but not overpowering it (hopefully at least) with it's long range. It can fire off a few shots, but then it drops down in damage and it's actually more beneficial to move it out of combat than just letting it attack. this hopefully encourages smaller engagements to gain benefits from the unit with the initial bombardment allowing a smaller deathball to engage a larger group that has been softened up.
- Dark Templar - New upgrade in the Dark Shrine. Increases Dark Templar health and/or shields. Really long and expensive upgrade, but I find Archons from Dark Templar to just be expensive, and I'd like Dark Templar to serve a little bit more utility. Per Supply, they actually aren't bad in terms of health/shields. With this they wouldnt be come cost effective, but I would want the increase in health to be greater than Zealots and worthwhile enough that it would be valid to use them to tank (if you have the money) if you care more about being supply effective. I'm thinking +40/+40.
- Mothership Core - a hugely imporant unit, and once i'm very excited about having in HotS. requires a factory. also needs a number of changes. Energize and Mass Recall (Recall) both will have unlock requirements. Energize will require a Templar Archive. Mass Recall (Recall) will require a Fleet Beacon. Recall is now rebalanced to only work as a single target spell (meant as a nerf). Both of these abilities are awesome, but I didn't want them to be standing too closely to the obviously powerful Robotics Facility, which would really want either Energize or a Recall. This forces them into mixing their tech trees rather than just relying on robo to get those benefits. Teleport and Purify will stay on as the only abilities that the Core gets without these unlocks. Teleport will be changed to being free (so you don't have to camp energy on it). Teleport/Purify just being there to assist in expands. Upgradeable to a Mothership which has the same abilities, but can now is untethered to a Nexus and can fly and attack.
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On June 16 2012 14:49 NicolBolas wrote:
Now, one could make the argument that you could get the same effect without giving the Terrans a Protoss unit. I'm not quite sure how, but it's theoretically possible. My point is that Blizzard's decision is legitimate; they're simply prioritizing game balance and gameplay options over issues like unit design.
it's possible for sure, for example, make the marauders a 60 hp /1 armor unit, that throws a fragmentation grenade, at long range(start with 6 and +2 with an upgrade) and does aoe damage(1.5 range aoe), the grenade don't explode on impact but after 2 sec and make tons of damage, like 40-50, this will force toss to micro his army.
you see , i have created an unit ten times more interesting than a regular marauders, Blizzard is just lazy or lack imagination...
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On June 16 2012 14:06 mahO wrote:Show nested quote +On June 09 2012 18:28 Sea_Food wrote:On June 09 2012 18:24 Miotonir wrote:When I saw widdow mines(cost 75 25) take out all swarm hosts in the demo (cost 200 100) I was like ... switching to terran ... building only widdow mines... GG. Very cool unit  They will prolly make me cry when i try roach bust ling xD This is so exciting Overseer which is 50/50 and all widdow mines are useless. Damn, you just made the world easier for all of us, man, why do people keep making dts, cloaked banshees, burrowed banelings... Idiot. Back on OP, holyfuck 7 range on reaper? really? I mean I know we got 5 ranged queens now, but, really? So we're gonna open speedlings early as fuck to avoid getting owned by 3 reapers? Sounds fucked up, need to see this in action tho, apart from that, maaan they seem to have done a good job at correcting themselves. On paper these changes actually seem ok, which is hella surprising to me, I was expecting HOTS to kill SC2 esport for like 8 months before they balance it out, but this should do. At least they got rid of that terran "no more zerglings" mine, and burrowed baneling movement (yeah, even as a zerg, with all my bias I couldnt support this one... Sneaking 5 banelings underneath 10 sentries would have been hella fun, but broken yeah), really really curious to see all that in game now, gj blizzard for not killing your own game (yet)!
The Reaper range was a mistake by the OP.
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Sorry for the double post but completely seperate question hours later - can Swarm Hosts burrow without the burrow upgrade or are they just completely useless without it?
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On June 17 2012 01:30 Iyerbeth wrote:
Sorry for the double post but completely seperate questions hours later so - can Swarm Hosts burrow without the burrow upgrade or are they just completely useless without it?
No upgrade needed. But I still miss a "real" Zerg stealth unit, because the Locusts are visible and burrowed Banes can`t move.
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On June 17 2012 01:32 Cruncher93 wrote:Show nested quote +On June 17 2012 01:30 Iyerbeth wrote:
Sorry for the double post but completely seperate questions hours later so - can Swarm Hosts burrow without the burrow upgrade or are they just completely useless without it? No upgrade needed. But I still miss a "real" Zerg stealth unit, because the Locusts are visible and burrowed Banes can`t move.
Thank you.
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God please make the warhounds heywire non-auto castable
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On June 17 2012 01:32 Cruncher93 wrote:Show nested quote +On June 17 2012 01:30 Iyerbeth wrote:
Sorry for the double post but completely seperate questions hours later so - can Swarm Hosts burrow without the burrow upgrade or are they just completely useless without it? No upgrade needed. But I still miss a "real" Zerg stealth unit, because the Locusts are visible and burrowed Banes can`t move.
infestors, roaches, banelings are all good at being stealthy, just need to research burrow mate
swarm host isn't meant to be a stealth unit, it's a siege unit that spawns free units that can attack AIR, AIRRRRRR, holy fuck that's a big deal.
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On June 16 2012 15:32 Quasi.In.Rem wrote:
Suggestions/Philosophy (dont' focus on numbers that would make it unbalanced, just core concepts that can be balanced)
- Widow Mine - from what i hear, it's unbalanced. I'm not a fan of it. rather than try to make the concept work, I think just letting it hit air units would make it good. it is a safer trade (no probe scout kills), and it serves a purpose to provide anti-air for mech. Doesn't Require Tech Lab.
I kinda like this idea it would help mech where it's weakest, but it would defeat the whole purpose of border control and it would become too specific and doubt we would see them other than TvZ where zerg goes mutas which in its self quite rare thesedays.
On June 16 2012 15:32 Quasi.In.Rem wrote:
- Nydus Network - really like the concept, just think it needs to be more cost efficient. so, i'd change the cost of a Nydus Worm to being energy. Nydus is a tactical skill rather than a strategic (unit) oriented one because honestly, you can always deal with Nydus play, but you just have to deal with it. I think this change would go a long way to encouraging it.
How about make it Hive tech, where you research nydus and you can load/unload from all the hatcheries? or you get an alternative and get like a one off nydus worm and once used you have to research it again? and you'd load from the Hive again.
On June 16 2012 15:32 Quasi.In.Rem wrote:
- Overseer - I would change the whole Overlord drop tactic to being a single upgrade (speed + sacs) that an Overseer can cast on an Overlord (graning those abilities). This isn't much of a change, but I'd also like for this ability to grant a new ability and that is for the Overlord to instantly die allowing the units inside to instantly drop.
So now players who just want fast overlords now have the suffer and pay a higher price? no thanks. keep them seperate.
I didn't go near protoss since I know I'd just go off on a tangent and eventually blabber on about how odd they are in SC2.
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Does anyone know of anything regarding viper's abduct ability and not being able to target massive units? I seem to recall something being mentioned but i just can't remember...
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On June 16 2012 18:25 Garmer wrote:Show nested quote +On June 16 2012 14:49 NicolBolas wrote:
Now, one could make the argument that you could get the same effect without giving the Terrans a Protoss unit. I'm not quite sure how, but it's theoretically possible. My point is that Blizzard's decision is legitimate; they're simply prioritizing game balance and gameplay options over issues like unit design. it's possible for sure, for example, make the marauders a 60 hp /1 armor unit, that throws a fragmentation grenade, at long range(start with 6 and +2 with an upgrade) and does aoe damage(1.5 range aoe), the grenade don't explode on impact but after 2 sec and make tons of damage, like 40-50, this will force toss to micro his army. you see , i have created an unit ten times more interesting than a regular marauders, Blizzard is just lazy or lack imagination...
However more interesting this unit is than Marauders, you seem to have missed the point. Marauders exist to give Terrans a Bio unit that won't die quickly to AoE.
Yours doesn't fill that role. It fills an entirely different role. So again, regardless of how interesting the unit is, it doesn't do what it needs to do.
The challenge is to develop a Terran Bio unit that fits within the Terran design and is able to survive AoE.
On June 17 2012 11:41 ScienceRob wrote:
Does anyone know of anything regarding viper's abduct ability and not being able to target massive units? I seem to recall something being mentioned but i just can't remember...
It certainly can abduct massive units. At no point was it ever stated or implied that it could not. Some people think that it shouldn't, but as far as the actual game is concerned, that's how it works.
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On June 16 2012 18:25 Garmer wrote:Show nested quote +On June 16 2012 14:49 NicolBolas wrote:
Now, one could make the argument that you could get the same effect without giving the Terrans a Protoss unit. I'm not quite sure how, but it's theoretically possible. My point is that Blizzard's decision is legitimate; they're simply prioritizing game balance and gameplay options over issues like unit design. it's possible for sure, for example, make the marauders a 60 hp /1 armor unit, that throws a fragmentation grenade, at long range(start with 6 and +2 with an upgrade) and does aoe damage(1.5 range aoe), the grenade don't explode on impact but after 2 sec and make tons of damage, like 40-50, this will force toss to micro his army. you see , i have created an unit ten times more interesting than a regular marauders, Blizzard is just lazy or lack imagination...
really nice idea but the 40-50 dmg just makes the marauder like the infestor's fungals. Really easy to use and all depends to the opponent's micro which is stupid and overly imbalanced in low leagues. except if that would have like an extreme long cd which would make it an almost exact copy of the reaver
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Interesting tidbit from david kim's interview with RTSGuru:
RTS Guru: Where do you see the game changing the most? Late game, mid game...etc. It seems to me a lot more late game with all the new units having to tech up to get to.
David Kim: For example on the Zerg side, the only change we have on the early game is the Overlord creep. That ability got moved from Lair to Evolution Chamber.
Moving the overlords drop creep ability from the lair to the evo chamber seems interesting on paper, hopefully spine all-ins vs forge fast expands for example don't become a bit ridiculous.
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Oracle
At last every non-Terran can stop whining now about Banshees (the "flying DTs") ...
Cloaked Void Ray rush ... *cough* ... should be unscoutable (build the Stargate anywhere on the map and everyone will have problems finding it until it is too late).
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Is the hydralisk upgrade lair tech or hive?
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On June 20 2012 12:39 Dingobloo wrote:Interesting tidbit from david kim's interview with RTSGuru: Show nested quote +RTS Guru: Where do you see the game changing the most? Late game, mid game...etc. It seems to me a lot more late game with all the new units having to tech up to get to.
David Kim: For example on the Zerg side, the only change we have on the early game is the Overlord creep. That ability got moved from Lair to Evolution Chamber. Moving the overlords drop creep ability from the lair to the evo chamber seems interesting on paper, hopefully spine all-ins vs forge fast expands for example don't become a bit ridiculous.
There's no way this stays in unless they change the speed creep goes away.
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i kinda liked the zerg dynamic in the reports... those mines looks so fucking OP btw..
terran gets only mech 1a units, im not sure if thats such a great move.
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On June 20 2012 12:39 Dingobloo wrote:Interesting tidbit from david kim's interview with RTSGuru: Show nested quote +RTS Guru: Where do you see the game changing the most? Late game, mid game...etc. It seems to me a lot more late game with all the new units having to tech up to get to.
David Kim: For example on the Zerg side, the only change we have on the early game is the Overlord creep. That ability got moved from Lair to Evolution Chamber. Moving the overlords drop creep ability from the lair to the evo chamber seems interesting on paper, hopefully spine all-ins vs forge fast expands for example don't become a bit ridiculous.
Oh man, I would proxy spine all day long with that.
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how should zerg stop terran mech when terran can drop down widow mines? Roaches will die immediately, mutas won't work and hydras are still glass cannons.
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On June 20 2012 13:28 archonOOid wrote:
how should zerg stop terran mech when terran can drop down widow mines? Roaches will die immediately, mutas won't work and hydras are still glass cannons.
How does that happen ? The widow mine will change nothing in actual battles against Mech .10 seconds is ALOT and its extremely visible. You have to be afk or very slow to take damage from it other than the unit effected by just moving its out or killing it yourself.
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EPT
