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This is not the place to argue whether or not spades hacked, do that in the relevant thread please.
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He is quite the popular case yes, but if the people mad at him would actually start hating on Blizzard, you would probably get some official statement regarding hacks pretty soon and maybe force some extra money being spent into solving the hacking issue.
I don't know if it's technically possible to stop maphacks though.
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On June 06 2012 06:01 Corrosive wrote:Show nested quote +On June 06 2012 05:59 toiletCAT wrote:On June 06 2012 05:58 Myles wrote:On June 06 2012 05:57 toiletCAT wrote:On June 06 2012 05:55 Myles wrote:On June 06 2012 05:54 toiletCAT wrote:On June 06 2012 05:52 Myles wrote:On June 06 2012 05:48 Daralii wrote:On June 06 2012 05:44 CrugerDK wrote:
good riddance!
this is exactly when the pitchforks are justified.
map hacking is intolerable for a pro player - especially a 2nd time!
this isn't just ladder points, there's money on the line. He should be banned from all tournaments for life. Which would be great, if we ever actually found out if he was guilty.He never confessed, and there was never any definitive proof one way or the other. You've all effectively ruined his progaming career because a smurf account posted a bunch of circumstantial evidence. I don't even care if he did it at this point. This has to stop. You all can't just keep running people out of town because of stupid bullshit. You will never had definitive proof of maphacking unless the hacker in general is incredibly dumb, and even then someone could probably make an argument that it's still subjective. Honestly, there's enough circumstantial evidence to raise doubts based on the mechanics difference alone, and that's all it takes in the court of public opinion. Doubts =! evidence. Um, circumstantial evidence that raises doubt. Like I said, there will never be definitive proof and at some point you have to make a judgment call. It'd be nice to have an organizing body for that, but until that happens, it will be up to the community. A responsible, judgemental call would be to leave him be, not judge him without evidence. Evidence=/=proof. We do have evidence, we don't have proof. No, you don't have evidence. Yes, we do. If you want proof to ban a hacker then no hackers would ever be banned unless someone was recording them from behind with a video camera. that maphacker impa who just got banned? welp, cant ban him without proof, he could have just been lucky proxy 2 gating every correct location. strong evidence but no proof
That's not evidence, though. I'm sorry, but it really isn't.
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Well what else should he do? If he wouldn't left he would have been fired. His reputation was already way to good regarding the fact he cheated already. Imho cheaters just don'T deserve a second chance. When you think about the fact they just destroy the work of other serious and honest players which probably don't get a chance because of hackers like him.
I think the retirement is nothing he's really sad about. As someone said in the other thread he pretty much lost his interest in Starcraft 2, started to cheat, probably knewing that this day would come.
btw.: imho no one would retire if he hadn't cheated
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On June 06 2012 05:35 LucidityDark wrote:
This is one of the precise reasons why this community should stop being so dogmatic and stop witch hunting every few weeks. The "guilty until proven innocent" mentality has severely damaged yet another player's reputation to the point where his entire career is very likely to be completely ruined, and we don't even know if Spades hacked or not.
This is beyond annoying. His reputation is not fucking ruined to the point where his career is ruined. Dragon admitted to fucking cheating, and over a very long period of time was slowly allowed to come back into the community. If he really was dedicated to this game, and really wanted to play it, and was convinced he wasn't hacking he should have said, hey, I didn't hack, do your witch hunt, and keep doing what he does. If he did hack, he should have said, yes I do hack, I apologize to the community, and went quiet for a couple of months and than slowly build his reputation up.
Their are very few situations where someone's reputation is ruined to the point where they wont be able to make a career out of it. The only situation I can think of is the Savior one, where huge amounts of money was involved.
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A career as a pro-gamer is one where your living depends upon a lynch mob as your customer, as this community has demonstrated over and over again. It's something that every aspiring pro-gamer, team, endorser, etc. should know ahead of time. A statement like the following strikes me as naive.
We feel that the matter shouldn't have been handled publicly without giving us a chance to review.
Don't expect an industry where the "customers" are predominately a bunch of immature kids with an entitlement complex to handle affairs in a mature way. Got a problem with a word ? Call the sponsors and complain. It won't change because it's engrained in the consumers themselves.
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On June 06 2012 06:01 toiletCAT wrote:Show nested quote +On June 06 2012 06:01 Corrosive wrote:On June 06 2012 05:59 toiletCAT wrote:On June 06 2012 05:58 Myles wrote:On June 06 2012 05:57 toiletCAT wrote:On June 06 2012 05:55 Myles wrote:On June 06 2012 05:54 toiletCAT wrote:On June 06 2012 05:52 Myles wrote:On June 06 2012 05:48 Daralii wrote:On June 06 2012 05:44 CrugerDK wrote:
good riddance!
this is exactly when the pitchforks are justified.
map hacking is intolerable for a pro player - especially a 2nd time!
this isn't just ladder points, there's money on the line. He should be banned from all tournaments for life. Which would be great, if we ever actually found out if he was guilty.He never confessed, and there was never any definitive proof one way or the other. You've all effectively ruined his progaming career because a smurf account posted a bunch of circumstantial evidence. I don't even care if he did it at this point. This has to stop. You all can't just keep running people out of town because of stupid bullshit. You will never had definitive proof of maphacking unless the hacker in general is incredibly dumb, and even then someone could probably make an argument that it's still subjective. Honestly, there's enough circumstantial evidence to raise doubts based on the mechanics difference alone, and that's all it takes in the court of public opinion. Doubts =! evidence. Um, circumstantial evidence that raises doubt. Like I said, there will never be definitive proof and at some point you have to make a judgment call. It'd be nice to have an organizing body for that, but until that happens, it will be up to the community. A responsible, judgemental call would be to leave him be, not judge him without evidence. Evidence=/=proof. We do have evidence, we don't have proof. No, you don't have evidence. Yes, we do. If you want proof to ban a hacker then no hackers would ever be banned unless someone was recording them from behind with a video camera. that maphacker impa who just got banned? welp, cant ban him without proof, he could have just been lucky proxy 2 gating every correct location. strong evidence but no proof That's not evidence, though. I'm sorry, but it really isn't.
Professional debating skills right there. "That's not evidence guys, because it's just not. Trust me."
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I really hate this "witch hunt" mentality. Someone thought he did something wrong and called him out on it. I bet if Day 9 murdered someone in cold blood with 1000 eye witnesses people would still be like "OMG LETS NOT START A WITCH HUNT GUYS OK?"
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Mehhh
Really unfortunate that this happening to someone
However, I don't think his absence will be noticed much as he wasn't outputting results
Best of luck to you in the future Spades
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These "witch hunts" are absolutely disgusting.
Yeah, if a player was "guilty" then you can say it's justified, but even if they're not NOBODY WAITS FOR PROOF (one way or another) before ripping the shit out of the accused.
I honestly don't see how people can genuinely think treating players like this can be good for the community. Yes it means less "cheaters" but it damages the community itself by turning people against each other and making people think it's fine to treat people like complete trash because they may have possibly been cheating (People were abusing Spades and denouncing him before anyone had even analysed the replays besides the anonymous first poster). And that should NOT be acceptable.
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Little Spades is a weirdo, therefore the Liquid kids talked about him alot and were very suspicious. Spades found out about this and was very sad. He then asked the liquid kids if they could become friends again. Some said yes but there were still some kids who said "No you are bad!". Even his very best friends the Western Wolves kids started to be ashamed that they were hanging out with Spades. Spades sensed this and decided to isolate himself from them.
Kindergarten Tststs
If we had some kind of player/league association this would be ezpz
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On June 06 2012 06:03 IcedBacon wrote:Show nested quote +On June 06 2012 06:01 toiletCAT wrote:On June 06 2012 06:01 Corrosive wrote:On June 06 2012 05:59 toiletCAT wrote:On June 06 2012 05:58 Myles wrote:On June 06 2012 05:57 toiletCAT wrote:On June 06 2012 05:55 Myles wrote:On June 06 2012 05:54 toiletCAT wrote:On June 06 2012 05:52 Myles wrote:On June 06 2012 05:48 Daralii wrote:
[quote]
Which would be great, if we ever actually found out if he was guilty.
He never confessed, and there was never any definitive proof one way or the other. You've all effectively ruined his progaming career because a smurf account posted a bunch of circumstantial evidence. I don't even care if he did it at this point. This has to stop. You all can't just keep running people out of town because of stupid bullshit. You will never had definitive proof of maphacking unless the hacker in general is incredibly dumb, and even then someone could probably make an argument that it's still subjective. Honestly, there's enough circumstantial evidence to raise doubts based on the mechanics difference alone, and that's all it takes in the court of public opinion. Doubts =! evidence. Um, circumstantial evidence that raises doubt. Like I said, there will never be definitive proof and at some point you have to make a judgment call. It'd be nice to have an organizing body for that, but until that happens, it will be up to the community. A responsible, judgemental call would be to leave him be, not judge him without evidence. Evidence=/=proof. We do have evidence, we don't have proof. No, you don't have evidence. Yes, we do. If you want proof to ban a hacker then no hackers would ever be banned unless someone was recording them from behind with a video camera. that maphacker impa who just got banned? welp, cant ban him without proof, he could have just been lucky proxy 2 gating every correct location. strong evidence but no proof That's not evidence, though. I'm sorry, but it really isn't. Professional debating skills right there. "That's not evidence guys, because it's just not. Trust me."
What do you want me to say? It's a fact, it's not evidence. I'm not going to tell you why "something we cannot be completely sure about" is "definitive proof"
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On June 06 2012 06:01 toiletCAT wrote:Show nested quote +On June 06 2012 06:01 Corrosive wrote:On June 06 2012 05:59 toiletCAT wrote:On June 06 2012 05:58 Myles wrote:On June 06 2012 05:57 toiletCAT wrote:On June 06 2012 05:55 Myles wrote:On June 06 2012 05:54 toiletCAT wrote:On June 06 2012 05:52 Myles wrote:On June 06 2012 05:48 Daralii wrote:On June 06 2012 05:44 CrugerDK wrote:
good riddance!
this is exactly when the pitchforks are justified.
map hacking is intolerable for a pro player - especially a 2nd time!
this isn't just ladder points, there's money on the line. He should be banned from all tournaments for life. Which would be great, if we ever actually found out if he was guilty.He never confessed, and there was never any definitive proof one way or the other. You've all effectively ruined his progaming career because a smurf account posted a bunch of circumstantial evidence. I don't even care if he did it at this point. This has to stop. You all can't just keep running people out of town because of stupid bullshit. You will never had definitive proof of maphacking unless the hacker in general is incredibly dumb, and even then someone could probably make an argument that it's still subjective. Honestly, there's enough circumstantial evidence to raise doubts based on the mechanics difference alone, and that's all it takes in the court of public opinion. Doubts =! evidence. Um, circumstantial evidence that raises doubt. Like I said, there will never be definitive proof and at some point you have to make a judgment call. It'd be nice to have an organizing body for that, but until that happens, it will be up to the community. A responsible, judgemental call would be to leave him be, not judge him without evidence. Evidence=/=proof. We do have evidence, we don't have proof. No, you don't have evidence. Yes, we do. If you want proof to ban a hacker then no hackers would ever be banned unless someone was recording them from behind with a video camera. that maphacker impa who just got banned? welp, cant ban him without proof, he could have just been lucky proxy 2 gating every correct location. strong evidence but no proof That's not evidence, though. I'm sorry, but it really isn't.
If that's not evidence then why was impa banned from battle.net and demoted to bronze from GM?
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On June 06 2012 06:04 Corrosive wrote:Show nested quote +On June 06 2012 06:01 toiletCAT wrote:On June 06 2012 06:01 Corrosive wrote:On June 06 2012 05:59 toiletCAT wrote:On June 06 2012 05:58 Myles wrote:On June 06 2012 05:57 toiletCAT wrote:On June 06 2012 05:55 Myles wrote:On June 06 2012 05:54 toiletCAT wrote:On June 06 2012 05:52 Myles wrote:On June 06 2012 05:48 Daralii wrote:
[quote]
Which would be great, if we ever actually found out if he was guilty.
He never confessed, and there was never any definitive proof one way or the other. You've all effectively ruined his progaming career because a smurf account posted a bunch of circumstantial evidence. I don't even care if he did it at this point. This has to stop. You all can't just keep running people out of town because of stupid bullshit. You will never had definitive proof of maphacking unless the hacker in general is incredibly dumb, and even then someone could probably make an argument that it's still subjective. Honestly, there's enough circumstantial evidence to raise doubts based on the mechanics difference alone, and that's all it takes in the court of public opinion. Doubts =! evidence. Um, circumstantial evidence that raises doubt. Like I said, there will never be definitive proof and at some point you have to make a judgment call. It'd be nice to have an organizing body for that, but until that happens, it will be up to the community. A responsible, judgemental call would be to leave him be, not judge him without evidence. Evidence=/=proof. We do have evidence, we don't have proof. No, you don't have evidence. Yes, we do. If you want proof to ban a hacker then no hackers would ever be banned unless someone was recording them from behind with a video camera. that maphacker impa who just got banned? welp, cant ban him without proof, he could have just been lucky proxy 2 gating every correct location. strong evidence but no proof That's not evidence, though. I'm sorry, but it really isn't. If that's not evidence then why was impa banned from battle.net and demoted to bronze from GM?
He streamed himself hacking. Openly. Freely. Carelessly. On purpose.
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United States5162 Posts
On June 06 2012 06:04 toiletCAT wrote:Show nested quote +On June 06 2012 06:03 IcedBacon wrote:On June 06 2012 06:01 toiletCAT wrote:On June 06 2012 06:01 Corrosive wrote:On June 06 2012 05:59 toiletCAT wrote:On June 06 2012 05:58 Myles wrote:On June 06 2012 05:57 toiletCAT wrote:On June 06 2012 05:55 Myles wrote:On June 06 2012 05:54 toiletCAT wrote:On June 06 2012 05:52 Myles wrote:
[quote]
You will never had definitive proof of maphacking unless the hacker in general is incredibly dumb, and even then someone could probably make an argument that it's still subjective. Honestly, there's enough circumstantial evidence to raise doubts based on the mechanics difference alone, and that's all it takes in the court of public opinion. Doubts =! evidence. Um, circumstantial evidence that raises doubt. Like I said, there will never be definitive proof and at some point you have to make a judgment call. It'd be nice to have an organizing body for that, but until that happens, it will be up to the community. A responsible, judgemental call would be to leave him be, not judge him without evidence. Evidence=/=proof. We do have evidence, we don't have proof. No, you don't have evidence. Yes, we do. If you want proof to ban a hacker then no hackers would ever be banned unless someone was recording them from behind with a video camera. that maphacker impa who just got banned? welp, cant ban him without proof, he could have just been lucky proxy 2 gating every correct location. strong evidence but no proof That's not evidence, though. I'm sorry, but it really isn't. Professional debating skills right there. "That's not evidence guys, because it's just not. Trust me." What do you want me to say? It's a fact, it's not evidence. I'm not going to tell you why "something we cannot be completely sure about" is "definitive proof"
I feel like you don't know the difference between evidence and proof.
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On June 06 2012 06:04 toiletCAT wrote:Show nested quote +On June 06 2012 06:03 IcedBacon wrote:On June 06 2012 06:01 toiletCAT wrote:On June 06 2012 06:01 Corrosive wrote:On June 06 2012 05:59 toiletCAT wrote:On June 06 2012 05:58 Myles wrote:On June 06 2012 05:57 toiletCAT wrote:On June 06 2012 05:55 Myles wrote:On June 06 2012 05:54 toiletCAT wrote:On June 06 2012 05:52 Myles wrote:
[quote]
You will never had definitive proof of maphacking unless the hacker in general is incredibly dumb, and even then someone could probably make an argument that it's still subjective. Honestly, there's enough circumstantial evidence to raise doubts based on the mechanics difference alone, and that's all it takes in the court of public opinion. Doubts =! evidence. Um, circumstantial evidence that raises doubt. Like I said, there will never be definitive proof and at some point you have to make a judgment call. It'd be nice to have an organizing body for that, but until that happens, it will be up to the community. A responsible, judgemental call would be to leave him be, not judge him without evidence. Evidence=/=proof. We do have evidence, we don't have proof. No, you don't have evidence. Yes, we do. If you want proof to ban a hacker then no hackers would ever be banned unless someone was recording them from behind with a video camera. that maphacker impa who just got banned? welp, cant ban him without proof, he could have just been lucky proxy 2 gating every correct location. strong evidence but no proof That's not evidence, though. I'm sorry, but it really isn't. Professional debating skills right there. "That's not evidence guys, because it's just not. Trust me." What do you want me to say? It's a fact, it's not evidence. I'm not going to tell you why "something we cannot be completely sure about" is "definitive proof"
lol. How many times do you have to be told that evidence != definitive proof?
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On June 06 2012 06:06 Myles wrote:Show nested quote +On June 06 2012 06:04 toiletCAT wrote:On June 06 2012 06:03 IcedBacon wrote:On June 06 2012 06:01 toiletCAT wrote:On June 06 2012 06:01 Corrosive wrote:On June 06 2012 05:59 toiletCAT wrote:On June 06 2012 05:58 Myles wrote:On June 06 2012 05:57 toiletCAT wrote:On June 06 2012 05:55 Myles wrote:On June 06 2012 05:54 toiletCAT wrote:
[quote]
Doubts =! evidence. Um, circumstantial evidence that raises doubt. Like I said, there will never be definitive proof and at some point you have to make a judgment call. It'd be nice to have an organizing body for that, but until that happens, it will be up to the community. A responsible, judgemental call would be to leave him be, not judge him without evidence. Evidence=/=proof. We do have evidence, we don't have proof. No, you don't have evidence. Yes, we do. If you want proof to ban a hacker then no hackers would ever be banned unless someone was recording them from behind with a video camera. that maphacker impa who just got banned? welp, cant ban him without proof, he could have just been lucky proxy 2 gating every correct location. strong evidence but no proof That's not evidence, though. I'm sorry, but it really isn't. Professional debating skills right there. "That's not evidence guys, because it's just not. Trust me." What do you want me to say? It's a fact, it's not evidence. I'm not going to tell you why "something we cannot be completely sure about" is "definitive proof" I feel like you don't know the difference between evidence and proof.
Okay, let's say that "we" have evidence but no proof, yet, maybe -- how can you justify that?
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On June 06 2012 06:00 LGSaxon wrote:Show nested quote +On June 06 2012 05:58 anatem wrote:
unknown poster accuses a semipro player of cheating in a showmatch with no proof, and people buy it because he's not the best player and hacked when he was a stupid teenager in another game. and he's not popular, so flocks of supporters wouldn't come to his aid and call him a retard, a hater with no proof etc.
immediately after public attention gets stirred, tons of "pro" players chime in as if any of their opinions are demonstrable, or they're authorities on the matter for playing at a top 1000 or so level and having placed second or first in some online cups, or maybe top whatever in a lan with maybe a few wins on lan worth mentioning on liquipedia, possibly having a stream following too. then even TT1 of all people dares show his face and some of his fans or people who know him 'cause he's oldschool suck up to him while shitting on Spades, which is ironic to say the least.
then Catz makes a douche comment about how he liked the guy but it was clear he cheated but he didn't care to go into it after skimming through the replays, while pretending objectivity - and all his sheep follow suite. they even start a new meme about it on reddit to add to the ridiculousness -in the sense of insanity- of the situation.
meanwhile there is still nothing more than circumstancial evidence, that could be found in tons of players' replays if you look long enough and if there's a significant bias against the person, the syntagm "witch hunt" comes to mind, and i think most of the people in the original thread don't actually understand how that works, or they'd pay some fucking attention to what they're posting.
then the guy does the most sensible and honorable thing to do, which is retire, to save his team the embarrassement, and save the community further hurt by extending the discussion after it was clear it was a lose-lose worse situation, and guess what, it's taken as further evidence of guilt, hmm, you 16-year old fuckers are going full-on standard Inquisition M.O. and don't even realize it.
doesn't even matter if he hacked (then fuck him for lying) or he didn't (then it's tragic) - which you'll never know, since even the most odd of things that people saw in those replays can be explained by the randomness of split-second decisions of a less than pro player (*), the way this thing ran its course is disgusting to say the least, it should really scare people that to this day the angry mob mentality that gave birth to things like the Inquisition can run so freely among such a young demographic, while being made so much worst by the impersonality of internet communication, and how it always shamelessly hunts the weakest targets.
(*)and yes, this is the whole gist of it, Spades, like Catz and the other people involved in this debacle are semipros at best, so their plays from home -not even in a tournament- and understanding of the game aren't ever going to be at even close to the theoretical highest level of play that would provide a good framework to judge "suspicious activities". so when a mediocre player with mediocre understanding judges another mediocre player with mediocre, and often brainfarty, plays, using the standard of perfection as he understands it, while being biased, and getting sought or unsought publicity out of it, guess what's gonna happen. there's a reason the whole "innocent until proven guilty" principle came to exist
someones jimmies are little bit more than rustled about this
for one, this whole thing is embarrassing to me personally as an esports follower.
secondly, the way the community reacted to this situation is well in tune with all the absurdity going on every day around us irl, that funnily enough sites like reddit mock every single day.
as for Spades himself, i don't really care, he might as well have cheated his ass off and had it coming to him. but that anyone can be subjected to this ignorant and hateful treatment while knowing full well that if he was a popular or extremely good player this never would have happened and the guy calling "hack!" would have likely had his thread closed for good, is something that should worry all of us.
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EPT
