I won't discus the accusations themselves here, this is not the place or time.
Regardless of whether I'm found “innocent” or “guilty” in the public eye, my reputation as a pro gamer is damaged severely. It's unlikely that I'll receive invites to major tournaments or showmatches as long as this matter is unresolved and I don't see any way for this to be resolved. I feel that staying with the Western Wolves would put the team in a negative light, especially considering how well the team has treated me, I would hate to negatively represent the WW team.
It's been a short stay, but one I thoroughly enjoyed. It's been great to have the opportunity to play for the WW team and I regret it coming to an end the way it is.
Unfortunately, as of late, it seems that the ugly side has been showing for too long. It's unfortunate Spades decided to leave, and I wish him the best of luck in the future!
Great statement and all, but I'm getting annoyed with companies saying they need to digest stuff before making a response. Stop having your employees do stupid shit please.
Don't be racist, don't be a cheater, and everything is fine.
On June 06 2012 04:54 toiletCAT wrote: Succesful witch hunt is succesful.
I feel sorry for him and the community.
Witch hunt? I call it justice matter infact Blizzard should sue him for damaging the spirit of online competive play. Dont feel sorry for him feel sorry for the players he cheated!
On June 06 2012 04:54 toiletCAT wrote: Succesful witch hunt is succesful.
I feel sorry for him and the community.
Witch hunt? I call it justice matter infact Blizzard should sue him for damaging the spirit of online competive play. Dont feel sorry for him feel sorry for the players he cheated!
But you don't know if he cheated anyone. It's a witch hunt.
On June 06 2012 04:57 OzkanTheFlip wrote: Spades, no1 wants you quit, worst case scenario is you made a mistake and hopefully admit to it and grow some balls your still going to do well.
What no. If he is found hacking he is done for ever, especially since he did this in bw. He is right when he says his career is fucked if he is found map hacking he will not be allowed to play in tournaments at all and no tournament would let him play unless they are clueless.
The fact you think worst case scenario is you made a mistake is hilariously wrong.
Why would he leave if he wasn't guilty, unless completely called out by TeamLiquid or having a full set of pro-gamers analyze the games,it just makes you look like you felt your guilt and decided to leave.
On June 06 2012 04:54 toiletCAT wrote: Succesful witch hunt is succesful.
I feel sorry for him and the community.
Witch hunt? I call it justice matter infact Blizzard should sue him for damaging the spirit of online competive play. Dont feel sorry for him feel sorry for the players he cheated!
We have no real proof that he cheated. I'd like to have the time to analyze any pro's replays pack, I'm sure I could find a lot of "suspicious evidence". Now, I don't say spades didn't cheat, I really don't know, but I just think he deserved a fair "trial" and that's really not what he got.
retard community strikes again.. brainless ppl . he left cus he was getting death emails, and he wanted to save his team from bad reputation, spades wasnt even a money maker pro , so why accuse him of things which arent 100% sure...????_ dont get it
On June 06 2012 04:56 SimDawg wrote: Don't be racist, don't be a cheater, and everything is fine.
People will manage to find other stuff to ruin people's life. Like money earned, days of vacation, time spent playing other games, time spent with girlfriends, CO2 footprint, excesive traveling, among others.
Circumstantial at best? Disappointed with WW, obviously they're looking at the replays with a huge bias going in. If they really wanted to get to the bottom of this mess they would see what CatZ and co had to say yesterday. This is also why it would've been pointless letting WW deal with the accusations from the start as Martijn said would've been best. Nothing would've happened.
On June 06 2012 04:54 toiletCAT wrote: Succesful witch hunt is succesful.
I feel sorry for him and the community.
Witch hunt? I call it justice matter infact Blizzard should sue him for damaging the spirit of online competive play. Dont feel sorry for him feel sorry for the players he cheated!
We have no real proof that he cheated. I'd like to have the time to analyze any pro's replays pack, I'm sure I could find a lot of "suspicious evidence". Now, I don't say spades didn't cheat, I really don't know, but I just think he deserved a fair "trial" and that's really not what he got.
Judge Catz gave him a fair trial and he was found guilty.
there is no proof that gives 100% proof that he is hacking, sure there is some evidence that points to that he may be doing it. Even the pros are split and even the ones saying they think he is arent 100% sure. But what can be said is that this community has destroyed a mans career and future. This needs to be fixed the community wields way to much power and we have 0 idea how to handle it properly. Disgusting, absolutely disgusting.
He pleads innocence yet retires because he feels hit reputation is "damaged?" I feel really sorry for him because if he's truly innocent he's doing everything he possibly can to convince people he's guilty of map hacking lol... That massive shit-storm of a thread has found nothing conclusive.
On June 06 2012 04:54 toiletCAT wrote: Succesful witch hunt is succesful.
I feel sorry for him and the community.
Witch hunt? I call it justice matter infact Blizzard should sue him for damaging the spirit of online competive play. Dont feel sorry for him feel sorry for the players he cheated!
We have no real proof that he cheated. I'd like to have the time to analyze any pro's replays pack, I'm sure I could find a lot of "suspicious evidence". Now, I don't say spades didn't cheat, I really don't know, but I just think he deserved a fair "trial" and that's really not what he got.
Judge Catz gave him a fair trial and he was found guilty.
Who is CatZ to judge that? Face it, we don't know he hacked or not.
On June 06 2012 04:57 dLG)Bananenbaum wrote: if you HACK for ONE TIME, guess what. your fuckin out.
Not if you're haypro, tt1, etc
They were in BW when they did it. You think they went unpunished? Nope they didn't (and I don't remember if haypro hacked or not but I know he did something that was cheating).
Did you know spades hacked in bw to and got caught? Now in sc2 there is a chance he did hack and got caught? If so 2 times, he has been allowed to play and everything nobody has cared but any hacker who is caught now will not be playing anymore nor forgiven for a long long time (if ever) in the starcraft community now of days.
On June 06 2012 04:54 toiletCAT wrote: Succesful witch hunt is succesful.
I feel sorry for him and the community.
Witch hunt? I call it justice matter infact Blizzard should sue him for damaging the spirit of online competive play. Dont feel sorry for him feel sorry for the players he cheated!
But you don't know if he cheated anyone. It's a witch hunt.
Look at the evidence open you eyes Im not gonna go into details I covered that in the other thread. He cheated plain and simple. He has cheated before and now he have done it again. And the damage this "motherfucker" has created are mindblowing. All competive online games will now be scrutinised.
Actually Im not even sure im gonna watch anymore online tournament becuase of Spades who have now set a precedence that even pro players cheat! Its such a big hit to the scene
If I was working in Blizzard esport department I would sue him just to give a warning to other pro players
I personally feel like his departure was premature...most of these reasons are his beliefs, but I don't know if they're based on anything substantial. Maybe if he waited a month he'd find tournaments would still invite him and the majority of people wouldn't care? Now I guess we'll never know, he seems convinced that his image is destroyed without any polling data or response from potential tourney organizers. Oh well, maybe he has some hidden justifications.
On June 06 2012 04:54 toiletCAT wrote: Succesful witch hunt is succesful.
I feel sorry for him and the community.
Witch hunt? I call it justice matter infact Blizzard should sue him for damaging the spirit of online competive play. Dont feel sorry for him feel sorry for the players he cheated!
But you don't know if he cheated anyone. It's a witch hunt.
Look at the evidence open you eyes Im not gonna go into details I covered that in the other thread. He cheated plain and simple. He has cheated before and now he have done it again. And the damage this "motherfucker" has created are mindblowing. All competive online games will now be scrutinised.
Actually Im not even sure im gonna watch anymore online tournament becuase of Spades who have now set a precedence that even pro players cheat! Its such a big hit to the scene
If I was working in Blizzard esport department I would sue him just to give a warning to other pro players
I did follow the other thread, and there's no evidence, only claims. Face it, you don't know if hacked or not, but you've had it your way, now end it for good.
That was really fast. I don't get why he didn't even bother to wait a little bit to see how much his reputation was really damaged. I mean, he already talks about likely not getting invites from tournaments anymore, 1 day after the accusation?
lol, this community is silly. This is almost like the facebook of e-sports, people get on here and post their opinions as facts and get other people into some shit that they shouldnt be in. If he maphacked, so what? that would clearly mean that he wouldnt perform well in any tournaments so you would only see him on ladder. I dont see what the big deal is. If he maphacks, just leave the game until blizzard decides to do something about adding in a anti-hack program with sc2.
On June 06 2012 05:06 TheLesser wrote: If he didn't hack, it is a huge shame. In the very least, he'll serve as an example to all future hackers.
Well he did hack in the past; so it is a good lesson in the sense that you should never hack, as people are more likely to accuse you of doing it in the future even if you aren't or there isn't conclusive evidence against you. If I remember correctly, Incontrol was saying on the latest state of the game that the community needs to take a much harder stance on hacking. Even if in this case it wasn't true, it may be justified in that light.
The way WW brass has handled themselves during this fiasco makes it very easy to root against them in future events. I don't like their tone. They are nothing without the fans, and they would do well to remember this.
On June 06 2012 04:59 Mrvoodoochild1 wrote: People who are innocent leave their teams right? O no, they don't. This guy is completely clueless, EVERYTHING he does makes him seem more guilty
Regardless of if he was innocent or guilty, leaving his team was the right decision. Why bite the hand that fed you by sticking it out on a year long contract and making the team "That Team with the fucking cheater on it" and himself "The guy who's so shameless that he's milking that poor fuck of a cheater's team"?
It's noble if he's innocent, and a shrewd move if he's guilty and pretending to be innocent. It shows he's willing to keep whatever goodwill he's garnered with a team rather than piss it away when he's realized he's at the end of his rope.
I can't say I feel for him, I think his replays were just about irrefutable, but leaving his team in the most amicable way possible should never be considered a bad thing.
Well i hope this hacking stuff can stop soon, I can just see on the ladder everyones going to say HACKS HACKS HACKS, i feel like its going to feel like cs 1.6 the next few months...........
On June 06 2012 05:04 Defacer wrote: Spades may be a hacker ... but the way this community, pro players and website handled it was fucking shameful.
Mob justice ended a career overnight, with no conclusive evidence. Congrats, guys.
Instead of waiting to be proven right we force individuals to prove us wrong. That's fucked up.
there is conclusive evidence though, did you even watch catz's analysis?
Sorry, but the magic scans were explained as a glitch in how replays record actions by Axeltoss. And not looking at the fog of war during the showmatch isn't conclusive. It's weird as hell, but enough to ruin a guy? I don't know ...
On June 06 2012 04:56 SimDawg wrote: Don't be racist, don't be a cheater, and everything is fine.
People will manage to find other stuff to ruin people's life. Like money earned, days of vacation, time spent playing other games, time spent with girlfriends, CO2 footprint, excesive traveling, among others.
Hasn't happened yet. Instead of activating the slippery slope argument to defend the murderers, shouldn't we cross those punative measures when they start becoming too intrusive, instead of becoming future infraction cops ala Minority Report?
On June 06 2012 04:54 toiletCAT wrote: Succesful witch hunt is succesful.
I feel sorry for him and the community.
Witch hunt? I call it justice matter infact Blizzard should sue him for damaging the spirit of online competive play. Dont feel sorry for him feel sorry for the players he cheated!
We have no real proof that he cheated. I'd like to have the time to analyze any pro's replays pack, I'm sure I could find a lot of "suspicious evidence". Now, I don't say spades didn't cheat, I really don't know, but I just think he deserved a fair "trial" and that's really not what he got.
Judge Catz gave him a fair trial and he was found guilty.
Who is CatZ to judge that? Face it, we don't know he hacked or not.
Did you even watch it? Yeah we don't know, but there is really conclusive evidence. Saying Spades didn't cheat is like saying O.J. Simpson is innocent at this point.
On June 06 2012 04:53 Daitakk wrote: Guilty as fuck.
LOL at that first response... the rest pretty much followed suit.
But I think it's a pretty good point. You don't leave *just* because of an accusation. You leave because the accusation leads to a trial which will uncover something.
I would kind of like to see some closure on the case though.
Regardless of whether I'm found “innocent” or “guilty” in the public eye, my reputation as a pro gamer is damaged severely.
Can anyone explain to me what that thread did besides create 130 pages of non-sense in under 24 hours. What exactly did anyone do to damage his career? If it's just haters, then he needs to get over it.
If he's innocent his career shouldn't be damaged at all. If the evidence is inconclusive his career shouldn't be damaged at all. If people jumped the gun again and complained to sponsors then those people need to get the fuck out.
On June 06 2012 04:57 Doodsmack wrote: Sorry but the fog of war discrepancies between the showmatch replays and a random sample of his ladder replays are more than circumstantial.
This is exactly what I'm thinking. WW is casting themselves in a negative light by continuing to back Spades on this. Now I'm not saying they have to throw him under the bus but they are clearly being blind to so pretty conclusive evidence of cheating. That comes off as a very questionable practice as a team. I hope this doesn't follow the team because of it.
On June 06 2012 05:04 Defacer wrote: Spades may be a hacker ... but the way this community, pro players and website handled it was fucking shameful.
Mob justice ended a career overnight, with no conclusive evidence. Congrats, guys.
Instead of waiting to be proven right we force individuals to prove us wrong. That's fucked up.
there is conclusive evidence though, did you even watch catz's analysis?
Sorry, but the magic scans were explained as a glitch in how replays record actions by Axeltoss. And not looking at the fog of war during the showmatch isn't conclusive. It's weird as hell, but enough to ruin a guy? I don't know ...
there was plenty of more evidence that Catz and co. showed. not to mention the accusations of former teammates and managers.
On June 06 2012 05:00 NovemberstOrm wrote: Why would he leave if he wasn't guilty, unless completely called out by TeamLiquid or having a full set of pro-gamers analyze the games,it just makes you look like you felt your guilt and decided to leave.
Why did Sangho quit BW when he didn't map-hack? Why are professionals fired from their careers based on hearsay and false accusations?
No longer do we live in societies where people are innocent until proven guilty in the eyes of the public. As soon as that first accusation is brought out the crowd opinion instantly latches on to that and brands the accused guilty, without deciding before all information is brought onto the table. With instant media and many outlets for others to express opinions, people are easily caught up and believe incomplete, sometimes completely false, information and it spirals out of control.
Spades being guilty or innocent won't ever clear his name in the public and that automatically makes him a risky investment for sponsors and teams. Whatever the outcome, Spade's professional career is most certainly ruined because of crusading and mob-mentality. People need to stop being so emotional over dumb shit, sit back, and wait for actual facts to come out.
On June 06 2012 04:54 toiletCAT wrote: Succesful witch hunt is succesful.
I feel sorry for him and the community.
Witch hunt? I call it justice matter infact Blizzard should sue him for damaging the spirit of online competive play. Dont feel sorry for him feel sorry for the players he cheated!
We have no real proof that he cheated. I'd like to have the time to analyze any pro's replays pack, I'm sure I could find a lot of "suspicious evidence". Now, I don't say spades didn't cheat, I really don't know, but I just think he deserved a fair "trial" and that's really not what he got.
Judge Catz gave him a fair trial and he was found guilty.
Who is CatZ to judge that? Face it, we don't know he hacked or not.
Did you even watch it? Yeah we don't know, but there is really conclusive evidence. Saying Spades didn't cheat is like saying O.J. Simpson is innocent at this point.
So you don't know but you believe there's conclusive evidence?
"Yeah guys, we don't know if he hacked, but we sure got rid of him anyway!"
On June 06 2012 04:54 toiletCAT wrote: Succesful witch hunt is succesful.
I feel sorry for him and the community.
Witch hunt? I call it justice matter infact Blizzard should sue him for damaging the spirit of online competive play. Dont feel sorry for him feel sorry for the players he cheated!
We have no real proof that he cheated. I'd like to have the time to analyze any pro's replays pack, I'm sure I could find a lot of "suspicious evidence". Now, I don't say spades didn't cheat, I really don't know, but I just think he deserved a fair "trial" and that's really not what he got.
Judge Catz gave him a fair trial and he was found guilty.
Who is CatZ to judge that? Face it, we don't know he hacked or not.
While Catz and Drewbie are great players, they're not experts on SC2 hacks, how they work, or how the SC2 replay system records and displays actions.
Honestly was a good decision by him. Especially with the way the community has been about contacting sponsors. Everyone is saying "good makes him look guilty" when they know at the same exact time other people, or they themselves, are contacting WW sponsors about "them having a hacker on there team" and how "they won't support them"
I have no opinion on if he hacks or not. Most of the information seems to be inconsistent so far so I am waiting until after MLG and WCS to full make my opinion on it.
On June 06 2012 04:59 Mrvoodoochild1 wrote: People who are innocent leave their teams right? O no, they don't. This guy is completely clueless, EVERYTHING he does makes him seem more guilty
This.
For people that wants him to keep him in the community, he hacked, you should accept it, and keeping him in the community is like accepting map hackers play at high level.
On June 06 2012 04:54 toiletCAT wrote: Succesful witch hunt is succesful.
I feel sorry for him and the community.
Witch hunt? I call it justice matter infact Blizzard should sue him for damaging the spirit of online competive play. Dont feel sorry for him feel sorry for the players he cheated!
We have no real proof that he cheated. I'd like to have the time to analyze any pro's replays pack, I'm sure I could find a lot of "suspicious evidence". Now, I don't say spades didn't cheat, I really don't know, but I just think he deserved a fair "trial" and that's really not what he got.
Judge Catz gave him a fair trial and he was found guilty.
Who is CatZ to judge that? Face it, we don't know he hacked or not.
Did you even watch it? Yeah we don't know, but there is really conclusive evidence. Saying Spades didn't cheat is like saying O.J. Simpson is innocent at this point.
So you don't know but you believe there's conclusive evidence?
I think the second MJ Case is a better analogy. Everyone assumed MJ was guilty because of prior suspicions that he was a pedophile, which were settled out of court. The second case turned out to be an elaborate con.
Really wish people had more time and patience to look at everything before going crazy and calling him guilty. Definitely some things worth looking into, but nothing really seems all that proven yet.
Saddest let down... Probably one of the most talented players out there. I remember a time where he was in Korea and probably having a shot at Code S with incredible skill, fashion sense and kindness. Oh boy, those were the days... I would like to see him become like the sickest LoL coach or something, where his numerous gifts won't be wasted. Regardless, I will continue cheering for him, I hope he will be at MLG to compete with many many fans from all around the world, bathed in happiness and love.
On June 06 2012 04:54 toiletCAT wrote: Succesful witch hunt is succesful.
I feel sorry for him and the community.
Witch hunt? I call it justice matter infact Blizzard should sue him for damaging the spirit of online competive play. Dont feel sorry for him feel sorry for the players he cheated!
We have no real proof that he cheated. I'd like to have the time to analyze any pro's replays pack, I'm sure I could find a lot of "suspicious evidence". Now, I don't say spades didn't cheat, I really don't know, but I just think he deserved a fair "trial" and that's really not what he got.
Judge Catz gave him a fair trial and he was found guilty.
Who is CatZ to judge that? Face it, we don't know he hacked or not.
Did you even watch it? Yeah we don't know, but there is really conclusive evidence. Saying Spades didn't cheat is like saying O.J. Simpson is innocent at this point.
So you don't know but you believe there's conclusive evidence?
I think the second MJ Case is a better analogy. Everyone assumed MJ was guilty because of prior suspicions that he was a pedophile, which were settled out of court. The second case turned out to be an elaborate con.
There's much more to a murder case than to a guy hacking in videogames.
Pretty disgusting that it spiraled to this point. Our community as a whole has disappointed me, as all the armchair investigators have gone out of their way to try to damage the guy's career.
Ultimately, the decision on whether or not he was a hacker should've been left to Blizzard. When hackers are reported they review the case, and most (if not all) confirmed hackers are banned/demoted to perma-bronze.
There was no conclusive evidence (I myself did not think he hacked personally) and now the guy's career is, at this point, in question. Frankly I think we should be ashamed.
Good luck in your future endeavors Spades, I loved your play and you have a fan in me.
Let's look at it this way, if Spades was guilty, then he got what he deserved. If he was innocent, at least his martyrdom should make an impact on any progamer, low or high level, that the community backlash to maphacking is devastating, and that people will not hesitate to go full detective style on your shit.
If innocent, is the career of Spades worth the possible abandonment of hacks by others or those that planned to use them? I can't make that call, but it seems like the only positive out of this whole situation.
On June 06 2012 05:00 NovemberstOrm wrote: Why would he leave if he wasn't guilty, unless completely called out by TeamLiquid or having a full set of pro-gamers analyze the games,it just makes you look like you felt your guilt and decided to leave.
Why did Sangho quit BW when he didn't map-hack? Why are professionals fired from their careers based on hearsay and false accusations?
No longer do we live in societies where people are innocent until proven guilty in the eyes of the public. As soon as that first accusation is brought out the crowd opinion instantly latches on to that and brands the accused guilty, without deciding before all information is brought onto the table. With instant media and many outlets for others to express opinions, people are easily caught up and believe incomplete, sometimes completely false, information and it spirals out of control.
You say that like we ever actually did outside of the legal system. Mob witch hunts certainly didn't magically begin with the digital age.
On June 06 2012 04:54 toiletCAT wrote: Succesful witch hunt is succesful.
I feel sorry for him and the community.
Witch hunt? I call it justice matter infact Blizzard should sue him for damaging the spirit of online competive play. Dont feel sorry for him feel sorry for the players he cheated!
We have no real proof that he cheated. I'd like to have the time to analyze any pro's replays pack, I'm sure I could find a lot of "suspicious evidence". Now, I don't say spades didn't cheat, I really don't know, but I just think he deserved a fair "trial" and that's really not what he got.
Judge Catz gave him a fair trial and he was found guilty.
Who is CatZ to judge that? Face it, we don't know he hacked or not.
Did you even watch it? Yeah we don't know, but there is really conclusive evidence. Saying Spades didn't cheat is like saying O.J. Simpson is innocent at this point.
So you don't know but you believe there's conclusive evidence?
"Yeah guys, we don't know if he hacked, but we sure got rid of him anyway!"
Do you have any idea how circumstantial evidence works? There's a limit as for how much circumstantial evidence proves something is conclusive and you obviously think that threshold is much lower than him. No one will EVER know for sure (it's the same for a certain percentage of previous hackers who get banned).
This is stupid. You haven't even let the TL mods have their say with the evidence compiled yet. If I was "caught", had my entire career on the line, and was innocent you can bet your ass I wouldn't immediately quit. I would do whatever I could to defend myself. Quitting in just over 24 hours before TL has said anything is a complete joke.
On June 06 2012 04:57 OzkanTheFlip wrote: Spades, no1 wants you quit, worst case scenario is you made a mistake and hopefully admit to it and grow some balls your still going to do well.
Actually, there's a lot of people who would permanently blackball him if he admitted to hacking, and they'd be right to do so. There should be zero tolerance for hacking, especially if SC2 is to be considered a real sport worthy of financial support and investment.
I hate when cheaters play the victim and never own up to their mistakes, attempting to draw the sympathy crowd as their last hoorah. This is a good thing, and I hope that any others like him have to face the same scrutiny as he saw(not necessarily brought about the same way, but with enough evidence in hand)
I really wish there was some sort of disciplinary entity that could handle these cases. No matter if he hacked or not, seeing the community handle this in the way it does is just sickening and could never possibly end well.
Disgusting the role TL played in this. The OP admits he has not had time to properly look into the accusation and the team manager is one of the only people who can legitimately claim wrong doing against Spades if he was cheating.
TL let this mess get out of control and now we have a prompt retiring of a person whose only crime may be "stealing" ladder points from noobs, and whose trial has been the loud bleats of a QQing public.
TL mods: Seriously consider changing your policy on the hate threads.
On June 06 2012 04:54 toiletCAT wrote: Succesful witch hunt is succesful.
I feel sorry for him and the community.
Witch hunt? I call it justice matter infact Blizzard should sue him for damaging the spirit of online competive play. Dont feel sorry for him feel sorry for the players he cheated!
We have no real proof that he cheated. I'd like to have the time to analyze any pro's replays pack, I'm sure I could find a lot of "suspicious evidence". Now, I don't say spades didn't cheat, I really don't know, but I just think he deserved a fair "trial" and that's really not what he got.
Judge Catz gave him a fair trial and he was found guilty.
Who is CatZ to judge that? Face it, we don't know he hacked or not.
Did you even watch it? Yeah we don't know, but there is really conclusive evidence. Saying Spades didn't cheat is like saying O.J. Simpson is innocent at this point.
So you don't know but you believe there's conclusive evidence?
"Yeah guys, we don't know if he hacked, but we sure got rid of him anyway!"
Do you have any idea how circumstantial evidence works? There's a limit as for how much circumstantial evidence proves something is conclusive and you obviously think that threshold is much lower than him. No one will EVER know for sure (it's the same for a certain percentage of previous hackers who get banned).
Considering the amount of people who are against you, I dare say it's 50/50, which is still not substantial. I won't get further into this -- I'm disappointed in many of you.
On June 06 2012 05:16 Alacar wrote: This is stupid. You haven't even let the TL mods have their say with the evidence compiled yet. If I was "caught", had my entire career on the line, and was innocent you can bet your ass I wouldn't immediately quit. I would do whatever I could to defend myself. Quitting in just over 24 hours before TL has said anything is a complete joke.
Lol, what makes TL mods the highest authority here?
On June 06 2012 05:16 Alacar wrote: This is stupid. You haven't even let the TL mods have their say with the evidence compiled yet. If I was "caught", had my entire career on the line, and was innocent you can bet your ass I wouldn't immediately quit. I would do whatever I could to defend myself. Quitting in just over 24 hours before TL has said anything is a complete joke.
Your on a forum man. TL is not Blizzard. They just happen to run the most popular Starcraft 2 site and we are posting in the forums. Its not their job to pass judgement if he is guilty or not. Their job is make sure people stay on topic. Who sends replays to TL mods for replay analysis? Nobody.
There job is to make sure people stay on topic in the forum among other things which is not replay analysis.
They also reopened the thread because they where PM'd by QuanticIllusion. Thats the only reason it was reopened after being closed.
On June 06 2012 05:14 ZenithM wrote: Saddest let down... Probably one of the most talented players out there. I remember a time where he was in Korea and probably having a shot at Code S with incredible skill, fashion sense and kindness. Oh boy, those were the days...
While it's sad he got forced out so quickly, let's be honest here... he absolutely was not one of the most talented players out there. He wasn't even currently playing for a top tier foreigner team. He never had a chance at Code S. Obviously, no one deserves to have their reputation tarnished unless there's loads of conclusive evidence supporting the claim that he hacks and cheats, but let's call a...
On June 06 2012 04:53 Daitakk wrote: Guilty as fuck.
Not at all the team looked into it an even they themselves deemed it he dosn't map hack. People witch hunting him like you and others have damaged his reputation for having done things he never did. Apparently studying someone who does the same thing on the same maps makes you a hacker rather then just meta gaming them. Iv seen the games and reviewed them and come to the conclusion of Western Wolves. If he were truly guilty he would have stayed on the team rather then staying an because of his destroyed rep damage the team as well. Thats actually the reverse of guilt so please quit it with the false accusations cause they're wrong on every level and a good guys rep is now destroyed cause of a witch hunt that was brought forth based on false accusations and probably someones love of lucifron.
Good way to hide shame from the community. It would be embarassing to be discovered that you were cheating by your team. It's a great way to start ANOTHER career fresh without seeking an advantage.
This is really getting out of hand. We need more people who don't give a fuck about what all the naysayers think to make you people understand that you only have the power that these nice, kind, and generous PRODUCTIVE members of the community give you.
If you keep this up, the only thing we will have left is Idra.
On June 06 2012 05:07 voy wrote: Are You proud TeamLiquid community? Im really with Nerchio on this one. 1 million map hakcing specialists here, from bronze to master.
The hacking community itself is laughing at how bad TL understands hacks. It was plain obvious what Spades using wasn't a maphack, but a bunch of misinformation about how camera lock works led to the entire community believing in Spades supposed hacking.
On June 06 2012 04:19 QuanticIllusion wrote: Per request, replays from the stream. Of course he is going to provide us with replays where he streamed ladder and etc., because he wasn't cheating. You have to look where winning matters.
OK; everyone open up the game on Cloud Kingdom and go to ~9:50.
Better proof cannot be asked for. Blacklist this hacker.
To me, 9:50 isn't evidence at all. Sure if you have both players vision on, it looks suspicious because of ognis' army positioning, but if you look at Spades' view, he moves right right after he builds extra production facilities. Kill natural -> build barracks -> resume attack on main. No breaks in between, and the entire sequence is logical.
I'm not sure you watched the right part...?
Basically, Spades sieges up, then un-sieges only to near-instantly re-siege without reason. Of course, it makes total sense if Spades was able to see the bio ball moving towards him, but watching the replay you see that Spades had no such vision (but he probably thought he did). Meanwhile, Spades' player-cam is focused on the high-ground of his opponent at the same time the bio ball is moving towards him on the high-ground.
It doesn't get better than this. If this is not enough proof then no hacker will ever get convicted because you are asking for the near-impossible (100% solid proof).
People saying "innocent until 100% proven guilty" are clearly too blue-eyed and haven't had to deal with hackers in the past. I come from the hack-infested WC3 scene of 2007-present, and trust me if nobody was labelled a hacker until there was actual solid proof, NONE OF THE BLATANT HACKERS WOULD BE CALLED OUT. You just CANNOT expect hard evidence, so stop asking for it.
Situations like the game on Cloud Kingdom are as good as it gets, and similar situations are found throughout the show-match, coupled with his very peculiar map-orientation it is as damming as it will ever get.
Second of all, Spades, this is the exact place and time to talk about this. Dodging it like you are is just more proof that you hack.
Good riddance to a terrible hacker is all I can say. The best part is that your real name and identity is now stained forever, so you can't simply just remake a new account and get right back to hacking (well, you can, but you won't be able to play on a team or at LANs). You're done for good, kid.
Hopefully this will act as somewhat of a deterrent to any would-be hackers.
On June 06 2012 05:00 NovemberstOrm wrote: Why would he leave if he wasn't guilty, unless completely called out by TeamLiquid or having a full set of pro-gamers analyze the games,it just makes you look like you felt your guilt and decided to leave.
Why did Sangho quit BW when he didn't map-hack? Why are professionals fired from their careers based on hearsay and false accusations?
No longer do we live in societies where people are innocent until proven guilty in the eyes of the public. As soon as that first accusation is brought out the crowd opinion instantly latches on to that and brands the accused guilty, without deciding before all information is brought onto the table. With instant media and many outlets for others to express opinions, people are easily caught up and believe incomplete, sometimes completely false, information and it spirals out of control.
You say that like we ever actually did outside of the legal system. Mob witch hunts certainly didn't magically begin with the digital age.
That's true, but at least the "public" back then was the few people around whatever incident that happened. With the Internet, it is everyone, and that completely changes how anyone who is being accused, rightfully or wrongly, can continue to live.
On June 06 2012 05:17 algorithm0r wrote: Disgusting the role TL played in this. The OP admits he has not had time to properly look into the accusation and the team manager is one of the only people who can legitimately claim wrong doing against Spades if he was cheating.
TL let this mess get out of control and now we have a prompt retiring of a person whose only crime may be "stealing" ladder points from noobs, and whose trial has been the loud bleats of a QQing public.
TL mods: Seriously consider changing your policy on the hate threads.
If TL doesn't allow it here people will go to Reddit or somewhere else to discuss it, you can't just censor it and expect it to disappear.
Sometimes I wish Blizzard had sponsors all these angry people could email whenever there isn't enough drama to go around. Maybe then Browder would get fired and we could have LAN.
On June 06 2012 05:19 goldenwitch wrote: This is really getting out of hand. We need more people who don't give a fuck about what all the naysayers think to make you people understand that you only have the power that these nice, kind, and generous PRODUCTIVE members of the community give you.
If you keep this up, the only thing we will have left is Idra.
It got out of hand the moment some random made a thread about Spades hacking, without proof of any kind, only claims.
On June 06 2012 05:17 algorithm0r wrote: Disgusting the role TL played in this. The OP admits he has not had time to properly look into the accusation and the team manager is one of the only people who can legitimately claim wrong doing against Spades if he was cheating.
TL let this mess get out of control and now we have a prompt retiring of a person whose only crime may be "stealing" ladder points from noobs, and whose trial has been the loud bleats of a QQing public.
TL mods: Seriously consider changing your policy on the hate threads.
If you think a pro player, even a semi pro player maphacking is just "stealing ladder points from noobs" then you are beyond reasoning with.
On June 06 2012 04:54 toiletCAT wrote: Succesful witch hunt is succesful.
I feel sorry for him and the community.
Witch hunt? I call it justice matter infact Blizzard should sue him for damaging the spirit of online competive play. Dont feel sorry for him feel sorry for the players he cheated!
We have no real proof that he cheated. I'd like to have the time to analyze any pro's replays pack, I'm sure I could find a lot of "suspicious evidence". Now, I don't say spades didn't cheat, I really don't know, but I just think he deserved a fair "trial" and that's really not what he got.
Judge Catz gave him a fair trial and he was found guilty.
Who is CatZ to judge that? Face it, we don't know he hacked or not.
A peer with nothing to gain from Spades being found guilty.
On June 06 2012 05:19 goldenwitch wrote: This is really getting out of hand. We need more people who don't give a fuck about what all the naysayers think to make you people understand that you only have the power that these nice, kind, and generous PRODUCTIVE members of the community give you.
If you keep this up, the only thing we will have left is Idra.
Fight it, go to MLG show results on live events "proof" people your skill is legit. That's the only way to get your reputation fixed. Weather you are guilty or innocent i care not, but you giving up right away is so wrong and will only feed to that "cheater" reputation.
Grow a pair and prove the world wrong, feed on the shit people throw at you and crush at MLG's lans and what not. Don't leave a team and cry in a corner.
On June 06 2012 05:07 voy wrote: Are You proud TeamLiquid community? Im really with Nerchio on this one. 1 million map hakcing specialists here, from bronze to master.
The hacking community itself is laughing at how bad TL understands hacks. It was plain obvious what Spades using wasn't a maphack, but a bunch of misinformation about how camera lock works led to the entire community believing in Spades supposed hacking.
How? I can link you the hack and link the thread where someone on the hacking site said that its obvious he hacked who is a elder member on the site. Who also has more post than the hacker who said it doesnt work like that.
Not really a witch hunt. Witches (magical broom-riding hags) don't exist. Hackers do. Spades was one of them in BW (or so I've heard.)
Neither TL or the OP of the accusation thread drowned him or pushed him off a cliff (ruined his career). He committed suicide (retired) before the 'trial' could even begin.
On June 06 2012 05:19 goldenwitch wrote: This is really getting out of hand. We need more people who don't give a fuck about what all the naysayers think to make you people understand that you only have the power that these nice, kind, and generous PRODUCTIVE members of the community give you.
If you keep this up, the only thing we will have left is Idra.
On June 06 2012 04:58 surfacegnome wrote: If he was innocent I don't think he would have left his team.
Acctually if he were guilty he wouldve stayed on the team and soaked up as much money as he could rather then leave so their name couldn't be weighed down by the effects of a witch hunt.
On June 06 2012 04:55 hyptonic wrote: sucks, guess it was needed with people giving him (unwarranted, surely) death threats if he attended lans, there was no other choice.
On June 06 2012 05:07 voy wrote: Are You proud TeamLiquid community? Im really with Nerchio on this one. 1 million map hakcing specialists here, from bronze to master.
The hacking community itself is laughing at how bad TL understands hacks. It was plain obvious what Spades using wasn't a maphack, but a bunch of misinformation about how camera lock works led to the entire community believing in Spades supposed hacking.
How? I can link you the hack and link the thread where someone on the hacking site said that its obvious he hacked who is a elder member on the site. Who also has more post than the hacker who said it doesnt work like that.
Hey man they are hackers on a hacking forum, obviously they are unbiased to the whole situation and will tell the absolute truth!
On June 06 2012 04:54 toiletCAT wrote: Succesful witch hunt is succesful.
I feel sorry for him and the community.
Witch hunt? I call it justice matter infact Blizzard should sue him for damaging the spirit of online competive play. Dont feel sorry for him feel sorry for the players he cheated!
Except that he never had a fair shot. This community jumps all over anyone accused of anything. If Spades is not guilty it does not even matter anymore. He has lost his team and a fair bit more of his reputation. I sincerely hope that TL mods delete posts like the one in question in the future until better evidence is found and the accused has a shot to defend himself.
On June 06 2012 05:07 voy wrote: Are You proud TeamLiquid community? Im really with Nerchio on this one. 1 million map hakcing specialists here, from bronze to master.
The hacking community itself is laughing at how bad TL understands hacks. It was plain obvious what Spades using wasn't a maphack, but a bunch of misinformation about how camera lock works led to the entire community believing in Spades supposed hacking.
Elaborate.
Incontrol and IdrA both believe that he maphacked. They have outlived the current hacking community and have seen away with hackers in Broodwar. They word, in addition to the damning testimony of his former teammates, the ongoing anaylisis, would make the case that Spades is the fishiest player out there. Nerchio is the on dissenting pro, and when he commented he admitted to be tired and not being able to look into it fully. How are we misinformed?
On June 06 2012 04:53 Daitakk wrote: Guilty as fuck.
Not at all the team looked into it an even they themselves deemed it he dosn't map hack. People witch hunting him like you and others have damaged his reputation for having done things he never did. Apparently studying someone who does the same thing on the same maps makes you a hacker rather then just meta gaming them. Iv seen the games and reviewed them and come to the conclusion of Western Wolves. If he were truly guilty he would have stayed on the team rather then staying an because of his destroyed rep damage the team as well. Thats actually the reverse of guilt so please quit it with the false accusations cause they're wrong on every level and a good guys rep is now destroyed cause of a witch hunt that was brought forth based on false accusations and probably someones love of lucifron.
The team actually was very careful to explicitly say that they *aren't convinced, but that there is circumstantial evidence of foul play.* I would suggest you reread the OP more carefully. The team gave a reply that made it so IF it is proven he hacks, they can say they weren't trying to hide it. Spades gave a reply that indicates he doesn't want inquiry to go on further.
One thing they clearly didn't say is that they found Spades innocent. They said they don't have conclusive evidence of cheating, so we should presume innocence.. The two are not the same. If I commit a crime and the police have some evidence but not enough to convict me, they aren't required to determine today if I did it. They can collect more evidence and try me at a time they think is more complete. There exist places between innocence and guilt in the eye's of the law.
On June 06 2012 04:57 dLG)Bananenbaum wrote: if you HACK for ONE TIME, guess what. your fuckin out.
Not if you're haypro, tt1, etc
They were in BW when they did it. You think they went unpunished? Nope they didn't (and I don't remember if haypro hacked or not but I know he did something that was cheating).
Did you know spades hacked in bw to and got caught? Now in sc2 there is a chance he did hack and got caught? If so 2 times, he has been allowed to play and everything nobody has cared but any hacker who is caught now will not be playing anymore nor forgiven for a long long time (if ever) in the starcraft community now of days.
Dragon cheated in SC2 and he has been forgiven. People bring up TT1 cheating more than Dragon, which is weird considering Dragon cheated in SC2 not BW.
It's funny to me to see how mad people get at TL moderators. It's specifically stated in their official rules that it's THEIR site and they can do whatever with the site that they please. I think it's pretty obvious that for the most part they try to as impartial as possible, however things like this are going to exist sometimes where there's a grey area open for discussion. It's not the TL moderators faults that Spades was accused of hacking, if you're gonna be mad why not choose between either Spades himself or at the accusers.
On topic: Fool me once, shame on you. Fool me twice, shame on me. I think if he is in fact guilty of hacking, considering his admitting to hacking previously in BW, than he should be black listed like so many people are suggesting.
this is disgusting. Utterly disgusting. Why do all you people have to be like that? Why ruin someones career just because you think he might be hacking... Oh man this is just terrible terrible news From now on I will always root for you spades.
The key is, he is saying all the things that he would be saying if he were guilty. That, combined with the evidence from Catz and company last night, is more than enougn to convince me.
Circumstantial evidence my ass. When you have mountains of circumstantial evidence from different sources, it's enough to conclude guilt beyond a reasonable doubt.
On June 06 2012 04:58 surfacegnome wrote: If he was innocent I don't think he would have left his team.
Says the 1 post guy. Even the OP had 1 post, the guy that started the whole witch hunt. I have a suspicion that this whole thing was stirred up by one or two "spades haters", and now its gone beyond the point of no return. Cheat accusations should be bannable offenses by TL from now on, UNTIL a PM to mods is given by a respected community member.
if I were accused of hacking and I was innocent, I would fight till the very end to prove my innocence. The fact that he is retiring shows that he is guilty. His words in his statement also are far off from someone who is actually innocent, and combined with all of the fishy gameplay he is a hacker in my mind.
Btw guys, I just want to put this out there, around the beta, there was a qualifier for the Hungarian national lineup, and i won the finals 3-0, got accused of maphacking. I said, it's complete bullshit, mods looked at the replays, there was no real evidence, case solved, the guy who accuse me after losing the finals disappeared.
Compare that to the recent situation. Spade came out and said u can believe whatever u want, and 1 day later he "retires" because his reputation has been dmged.
There is no dmg done by an unproven accusation, i went on the be part of the national lineup and win a national LAN at Budapest later on.
So I hope everyone gets why i say, he's guilty for sure, 100%, and everyone who still defends him is stupid
Cry about whichunts when people are punished severly for minor offences, not when a hacker gets exposed. GJ to whoever started it
i'm sad that one anonymous coward in the internet has so much power over someone. hell, you can just hope it doesnt happen to you one day when you (maybe) didn't do something and some anonymous guy throws accusations with "proof" around but everyone takes the "once a liar always a liar" approach. thats not how it should work in real life. (not taking any stance in the case here, but the possibility is really obvious) It scares me...
On June 06 2012 05:21 mememolly wrote: why didn't he stream the replays himself and talk through his decisions and reasons for the "dodgy" moments?
that's what i want to know too!
Well either he didn't have reasons or few people would really listen at this point. I'm betting on the former given his track record but cheating is a tough accusation to beat. Since he's been caught before I'm not surprised this is what happened.
On June 06 2012 05:19 Tump wrote: Guy can't get into top masters one day, gets to GM #1 and beats good Koreans like oGsVINES the next.
Hacker 100%.
Combine that with his tourny performance and he reeks of hacking with or without that series with LucifroN
This. I think witchhunts have gotten super out of hand(Orb, Destiny, and even the Playhem caster but I can't remember his name). That said, this was definitely a legitimate issue and I'm glad to see that he won't be able to show face.
Edit: Playhem Caster was Katu. Ironically enough, the community witch-hunted Katu because he cracked jokes about a former cheater. Katu was unprofessional and all that jazz but still ironic.
If persons kills himself before trial, it is almost 100% that he was guilty. I think it is the same situation right here.
If he would be that good that he could take maps from LucifroN, i believe he could easily prove himself in upcoming MLG / WCS USA and other tournaments.
On June 06 2012 05:27 Geo.Rion wrote: Btw guys, I just want to put this out there, around the beta, there was a qualifier for the Hungarian national lineup, and i won the finals 3-0, got accused of maphacking. I said, it's complete bullshit, mods looked at the replays, there was no real evidence, case solved, the guy who accuse me after losing the finals disappeared.
Compare that to the recent situation. Spade came out and said u can believe whatever u want, and 1 day later he "retires" because his reputation has been dmged.
There is no dmg done by an unproven accusation, i went on the be part of the national lineup and win a national LAN at Budapest later on.
So I hope everyone gets why i say, he's guilty for sure, 100%, and everyone who still defends him is stupid
I say concluding that someone is guilty of hacking without proof is stupid.
On June 06 2012 05:07 voy wrote: Are You proud TeamLiquid community? Im really with Nerchio on this one. 1 million map hakcing specialists here, from bronze to master.
The hacking community itself is laughing at how bad TL understands hacks. It was plain obvious what Spades using wasn't a maphack, but a bunch of misinformation about how camera lock works led to the entire community believing in Spades supposed hacking.
How? I can link you the hack and link the thread where someone on the hacking site said that its obvious he hacked who is a elder member on the site. Who also has more post than the hacker who said it doesnt work like that.
Hey man they are hackers on a hacking forum, obviously they are unbiased to the whole situation and will tell the absolute truth!
How are hackers biased about this situation? How do they benefit from Spades being a hacker or not being a hacker one way or the other? Why would they prefer to believe he is a hacker or isn't a hacker?
On June 06 2012 05:27 Geo.Rion wrote: Btw guys, I just want to put this out there, around the beta, there was a qualifier for the Hungarian national lineup, and i won the finals 3-0, got accused of maphacking. I said, it's complete bullshit, mods looked at the replays, there was no real evidence, case solved, the guy who accuse me after losing the finals disappeared.
Compare that to the recent situation. Spade came out and said u can believe whatever u want, and 1 day later he "retires" because his reputation has been dmged.
There is no dmg done by an unproven accusation, i went on the be part of the national lineup and win a national LAN at Budapest later on.
So I hope everyone gets why i say, he's guilty for sure, 100%, and everyone who still defends him is stupid
I say concluding that someone is guilty of hacking without proof is stupid.
This whole thing is fucking stupid. No one can even conclude whether or not Spades hacked, but have already made up their minds. Mob mentality will kill this community or turn it to shit like /r/starcraft. Thanks to a bunch of UNPROVED ALLEGATIONS, Spades has to quit or else his team will get a lot of hate. Fuck this.
I think the community is actually too generous. In my opinion there should be zero tolerance. He was guilty of hacking in bw so he should of never had the opportunity to play competitively again.
We have attempted to investigate these claims (unfortunately not exhaustively because of how swiftly the rumors spiraled out of control). Our investigation as far as we've been given the time to look into the matter shows that most of the claims are circumstantial at best.
If you would support your members you would keep Spades. If he is depressed by this news you shouldn't fucking drop him like a stone. Just because the internet is mad. You claim to be the good guys? You fuckers are pathetic. What if a player wants to leave your team because he is having shit results? You don't try to cheer him up?
Seriously? You don't have fucking anybody with half a brain cell that can give a better explanation than that? It has been 24 hours and your best guy came up with a couple circumstantial events? -Like the fucking hellions going downwards hugging the fucking wall to run from an invisible army? -Like the game with Avilo? Where he leaves tanks sieged but without air support for 2 minutes? He doesn't even saves scans while doing this? He just uses the one scan after he Avilo tried to move out in like forever? -Like the 3 times he perfectly guessed how Lucifron his army would move on Antiga? -Like the retarded bad positioned viking on Cloud, and the unsiege/siege follow up? And not that there were 4 "circumstances", there were like fucking 50. Like fucking 50.
What about Painuser? Avilo? giX? Illusion? They found the fucking time to watch the replays. Where the fuck was your expert? He wasn't capable to open his Starcraft II because it already spiraled out of control? Are you fucking kidding me? Your expert was on vacation? You have no opinion about this at all Western Wolves?
So what would have happened when the evidence was brought to you by the anonymous source? 24 hours later you would have had all the excuses lined up? Your expert would have found something that exonerate Spades? What is the fucking difference?
This is sooooooooo fucking pathetic.
Spades, in my eyes you did hack. But I don't understand why this has to be such a huge deal. But that is me alone. But if you didn't hack and you got such a fucking shit fucking team, that even though they believe that you didn't hack but they drop you like a fucking stone in the shitpool of being alone, and you will be alone after this, then you are the fucking unluckiest person in SCII.
On June 06 2012 05:07 voy wrote: Are You proud TeamLiquid community? Im really with Nerchio on this one. 1 million map hakcing specialists here, from bronze to master.
The hacking community itself is laughing at how bad TL understands hacks. It was plain obvious what Spades using wasn't a maphack, but a bunch of misinformation about how camera lock works led to the entire community believing in Spades supposed hacking.
How? I can link you the hack and link the thread where someone on the hacking site said that its obvious he hacked who is a elder member on the site. Who also has more post than the hacker who said it doesnt work like that.
Hey man they are hackers on a hacking forum, obviously they are unbiased to the whole situation and will tell the absolute truth!
How are hackers biased about this situation? How do they benefit from Spades being a hacker or not being a hacker one way or the other? Why would they prefer to believe he is a hacker or isn't a hacker?
I'm just saying, just because some " hackers " on a hacking website claim something to be the truth does not mean that it is. Some people were saying It's absolute proof he is not hacking because some people posted he was not. Someone earlier in the thread also showed an example of a person ( with a high post count ) on that forum saying he DID hack.
Also maybe some of them know Spades, is that so hard to believe?
Wtf, I don't understand Spades decision to leave the team... if I were he, I would've fought the accussations... I was neutral in the whole issue, and I still am, but I think all this does will feed the trolls.
Definitely saw this coming. Whether he's guilty of not, it's a really sad situation.
To Spades: If you're not guilty; keep your chin up and work your ass off. If something like this makes you give up your dream, then you don't deserve to be chasing it. In the chance that you are guilty; please leave and never come back.
Ultimately, the decision on whether or not he was a hacker should've been left to Blizzard. When hackers are reported they review the case, and most (if not all) confirmed hackers are banned/demoted to perma-bronze.
I like your view, but sadly its far from reality. I encountered a maphacker on ladder and put him on my fried list. This case was obvious. In a 20 Minute game he didnt even scout the location of my base, had his stalkers always in place when my mutas wanted to poke in and always pushed out when I took my 3rd (without seeing it, even if I put it in weird locations as his unscouted 3rd). Until his final push crushed me he hadnt even a clue where my base was. That was 2 months ago... guess what? Still playing.
We had a maphacker on the clan which got kicked out because of (guess what) maphacking. Still playing.
Countless bots in lowest bronze to farm pictures? Still"playing"
Im far from "Blizzard does nothing!111!11!!", but they are not exactly fast or thorough with this kind of stuff.
But I agree that Blizzard could be a "Judge" in this matter.
If the Team says "Hold on guys we investigate the case, Spade will refrain from taking part in online tournaments until we are finished investigating. We also emailed Blizzard to investigate his account/replays and will be happy to tell the community of their findings." Problem solved.
On June 06 2012 05:27 Geo.Rion wrote: Btw guys, I just want to put this out there, around the beta, there was a qualifier for the Hungarian national lineup, and i won the finals 3-0, got accused of maphacking. I said, it's complete bullshit, mods looked at the replays, there was no real evidence, case solved, the guy who accuse me after losing the finals disappeared.
Compare that to the recent situation. Spade came out and said u can believe whatever u want, and 1 day later he "retires" because his reputation has been dmged.
There is no dmg done by an unproven accusation, i went on the be part of the national lineup and win a national LAN at Budapest later on.
So I hope everyone gets why i say, he's guilty for sure, 100%, and everyone who still defends him is stupid
Cry about whichunts when people are punished severly for minor offences, not when a hacker gets exposed. GJ to whoever started it
You're a nobody, obviously no-one's going to care whether you hack or don't.
I think people and Spades himself overreacted waaaaaaaaaayyy to much. Spades reputation wasnt killed by this. He was rarely talked about in the first place, he shouldnt be doing all this though
1. Stop with the "DO IT AT LAN", according to your logic catz must also be a hacker till he does it at LAN or any other "pro" that has no tournament results. (No results you're all hackers in my eyes now (OH NOOOOOO!!!!!!))
2. Investigation of hacks with BIAS perspectives trying to find "conclusive" evidence with 90% assumptions (REAL SMART...)
3. I feel like there are so many people that lack any authority in their real lives, and finally get that opportunity online and they abuse it.
4. Does this mean a non name in the scene(myself included) can end anyone's career with a simple post (GAME ON!!!!)
Did something need to happen? Yes! Was it handled the right way? No, but I would venture to guess that, that is because there isn't a set procedure that people can reference to go through in a situation like this. If nothing else, this will boost the awareness and hopefully some sort of procedure can be set up so it doesn't happen in the witch-hunt type fashion that has happened here. But to call all of this disgusting and "sickening" stop being overly dramatic and down right wrong. Seriously. In this case the player had a history, and loads of fishy things that were associated with both him & the replays themselves. There was reason for this, albeit not handled the right way. Making a thread like this with no evidence and a person with no cheating history would not yield this type of popularity and would not impact a player at all.
Let's use this as a learning experience and maybe assemble some sort of group of volunteers that can review cases like this before they hit the public eye, then when and if they decide to, the evidence will be very well compiled and easy to reference for proof.
How this all played out is very sad indeed. He was accused and his career was demolished within what, a day? This shouldn't have been such a public issue unless there was some real good evidence or such. This just isn't the way; if he is hacking or not, its still not the right way. Gl Spades
On June 06 2012 05:30 plasmidghost wrote: This whole thing is fucking stupid. No one can even conclude whether or not Spades hacked, but have already made up their minds. Mob mentality will kill this community or turn it to shit like /r/starcraft. Thanks to a bunch of UNPROVED ALLEGATIONS, Spades has to quit or else his team will get a lot of hate. Fuck this.
pretty much 99,999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999% sure that he is hacking
Half the people are just going by what some pro said. Even if the people who reviewed the replays were trying to do it objectively it was pretty much already impossible to do that. When thousands of people say someone cheated and your looking for suspicious behavior your gonna find it. He may have cheated but even if he didnt how can he show up to lans. You know all the people not just the fans but the competitors all see him as a cheater. Im pretty sure i wouldnt want to go someplace where everyone hates me. Everytime he wins a game online everyone would just say its because he cheated and everytime he lost they will say its because he wasnt hacking. Im not saying he didn't cheat but, people who are saying that because he left his team just proves he did are stupid.
On June 06 2012 04:58 surfacegnome wrote: If he was innocent I don't think he would have left his team.
Says the 1 post guy. Even the OP had 1 post, the guy that started the whole witch hunt. I have a suspicion that this whole thing was stirred up by one or two "spades haters", and now its gone beyond the point of no return. Cheat accusations should be bannable offenses by TL from now on, UNTIL a PM to mods is given by a respected community member.
Because guys like Catz and illusion are spades-haters who were doing it for the lolz? Come on...
If a random guy makes a claim like that no one will actually care. But when pros start backing it up and find evidence in the replays you just have to discuss it. Hackers are a problem in pretty much every online game out there and you can't rely on Blizzard to fix everything. I really hate the fake-drama here, but this is nothing like that.
On June 06 2012 05:04 Defacer wrote: Spades may be a hacker ... but the way this community, pro players and website handled it was fucking shameful.
Mob justice ended a career overnight, with no conclusive evidence. Congrats, guys.
Instead of waiting to be proven right we force individuals to prove us wrong. That's fucked up.
there is conclusive evidence though, did you even watch catz's analysis?
CatZ's "evidence" was later proven to be inaccurate and invalid.
Bullcrap. Don´t post wrong information like this. It was proven that the magic scan was possible. Does not mean it is a logic action to scan somwhere to then not look at it.
Aside from aaall the other ridicolous moments. Like the scan on Shakuras for example. Srslywtf are you writing?
This community cares! This community does not want people to use the word "nigger", this community does not want their frontmen to act like 12 year old kids. This community does not allow hacking.
This is one of the precise reasons why this community should stop being so dogmatic and stop witch hunting every few weeks. The "guilty until proven innocent" mentality has severely damaged yet another player's reputation to the point where his entire career is very likely to be completely ruined, and we don't even know if Spades hacked or not.
On June 06 2012 04:55 hyptonic wrote: sucks, guess it was needed with people giving him (unwarranted, surely) death threats if he attended lans, there was no other choice.
We know these death threats were real?
I heard they've already prepared the weapon. It is, you know, an axe.
On June 06 2012 05:32 sPitcraZy wrote: 4. Does this mean a non name in the scene(myself included) can end anyone's career with a simple post (GAME ON!!!!)
If that person maphacked in a showmatch and you have overwhelming evidence in support of that accusation, then yes. Don't see what's so hard to understand about this.
" Considering a player should be considered innocent until proven guilty and the lack of conclusive proof, we don't believe Spades used maphacks." This really bothers me that they still don't believe he actually map hacked. Catz, illusion, drewbie and tt1's analysis of the lucifron series made it really obvious that he was map hacking. But I guess I don't really care, I never heard of this team Western Wolves until today. I actually didn't even know spades was on a team.
Just read the mod edit. Sorry for discussing hacks!
On June 06 2012 05:33 Riquiz wrote: How this all played out is very sad indeed. He was accused and his career was demolished within what, a day? This shouldn't have been such a public issue unless there was some real good evidence or such. This just isn't the way; if he is hacking or not, its still not the right way. Gl Spades
This is the first time Im actually proud of our community. I was very sad about the orb/Destiny situation and felt ashamed about our community but this is much more serious. Cheaters/Maphackers can destroy esport in starcraft 2. And i really hope that our community will be even more aware about cheating at a pro level.
On June 06 2012 05:27 Geo.Rion wrote: Btw guys, I just want to put this out there, around the beta, there was a qualifier for the Hungarian national lineup, and i won the finals 3-0, got accused of maphacking. I said, it's complete bullshit, mods looked at the replays, there was no real evidence, case solved, the guy who accuse me after losing the finals disappeared.
Compare that to the recent situation. Spade came out and said u can believe whatever u want, and 1 day later he "retires" because his reputation has been dmged.
There is no dmg done by an unproven accusation, i went on the be part of the national lineup and win a national LAN at Budapest later on.
So I hope everyone gets why i say, he's guilty for sure, 100%, and everyone who still defends him is stupid
Cry about whichunts when people are punished severly for minor offences, not when a hacker gets exposed. GJ to whoever started it
You're a nobody, obviously no-one's going to care whether you hack or don't.
thanks, it was a national selection, was posted on the national forum. Yes it's a tone smaller scene then TL and the international scene. EDITED, saw warning on top
On June 06 2012 05:32 sPitcraZy wrote: 1. Stop with the "DO IT AT LAN", according to your logic catz must also be a hacker till he does it at LAN or any other "pro" that has no tournament results. (No results you're all hackers in my eyes now (OH NOOOOOO!!!!!!))
2. Investigation of hacks with BIAS perspectives trying to find "conclusive" evidence with 90% assumptions (REAL SMART...)
3. I feel like there are so many people that lack any authority in their real lives, and finally get that opportunity online and they abuse it.
4. Does this mean a non name in the scene(myself included) can end anyone's career with a simple post (GAME ON!!!!)
Go for it, lets see you try to ruin IdrA's or WhiteRa's career with a post. I'll give you till the end of today.
On June 06 2012 05:34 crocodile wrote: First Naniwa, then Orb, then Destiny, now Spades.
Hope you guys are happy. This community SUCKS.
I want to punch my screen when I read shit like this.
Hacking is a way bigger deal than any of the other " drama " that doesn't actually impact the integrity of the game and the competition itself.
This is not a pointless witchhunt, this is an important issue. If he's a hacker which it looks like he is then people should be HAPPY that he was ousted.
On June 06 2012 05:34 crocodile wrote: First Naniwa, then Orb, then Destiny, now Spades.
Hope you guys are happy. This community SUCKS.
I want to punch my screen when I read shit like this.
Hacking is a way bigger deal than any of the other " drama " that doesn't actually impact the integrity of the game and the competition itself.
This is not a pointless witchhunt, this is an important issue. If he's a hacker which it looks like he is then people should be HAPPY that he was ousted.
If he really is a hacker, then I'm glad he's gone (still not convinced he is). The process, though, is incredibly biased and shameful. This "trial by mob" stuff will not last just because we have too many people who over/under-react and/or have no clue what they're talking about. We need some sort of central body to judge things like this. Not random people giving their opinions and then a whole bunch of +1s on Reddit.
On June 06 2012 05:34 crocodile wrote: First Naniwa, then Orb, then Destiny, now Spades.
Hope you guys are happy. This community SUCKS.
So now we can say "Go Spades" to guys like this? Honorable decision to leave, I suppose, even if he was indeed in this situation because of dishonorable actions. Don't call it a way out until the situation is 100% resolved.
On June 06 2012 05:39 polyphonyEX wrote: Didn't even confess. Just shows you how much of a person he is.
If he floats, he is a witch. If he drowns, he is not.
On June 06 2012 05:32 sPitcraZy wrote: 1. Stop with the "DO IT AT LAN", according to your logic catz must also be a hacker till he does it at LAN or any other "pro" that has no tournament results. (No results you're all hackers in my eyes now (OH NOOOOOO!!!!!!))
2. Investigation of hacks with BIAS perspectives trying to find "conclusive" evidence with 90% assumptions (REAL SMART...)
3. I feel like there are so many people that lack any authority in their real lives, and finally get that opportunity online and they abuse it.
4. Does this mean a non name in the scene(myself included) can end anyone's career with a simple post (GAME ON!!!!)
Go for it, lets see you try to ruin IdrA's or WhiteRa's career with a post. I'll give you till the end of today.
Wait bro I must target smaller less known players that have no tournament results because it makes it that much easier...
What do I need to do to make you people understand how shameful your actions are?
Do I need to make 20 posts for 20 respectable players, taking any random replay and explaining how it proves absolutely that they are hackers? How many of you losers have actually even watched the replays?
Does the pleasure that you derive from judging another human justify all the pain that spades is feeling? If he hacks, let his team find out and take care of it. That's their job. Your job is to enjoy watching the games. Is that too much to ask?
"I can't just enjoy the game anymore, I need the power to ruin a persons happiness" - Starcraft community.
How are you people not on the floor kneeling and begging to apologize to spades for judging him when it is not your place to do so?
The answer? none of you. The only people who come even close to feeling shame for your actions aren't even part of your actions.
How the hell can we have justice if both the guilty and the innocent are punished as soon as doubt is raised?
On June 06 2012 05:34 crocodile wrote: First Naniwa, then Orb, then Destiny, now Spades.
Hope you guys are happy. This community SUCKS.
I want to punch my screen when I read shit like this.
Hacking is a way bigger deal than any of the other " drama " that doesn't actually impact the integrity of the game and the competition itself.
This is not a pointless witchhunt, this is an important issue. If he's a hacker which it looks like he is then people should be HAPPY that he was ousted.
If he really is a hacker, then I'm glad he's gone (still not convinced he is). The process, though, is incredibly biased and shameful. This "trial by mob" stuff will not last just because we have too many people who over/under-react and/or have no clue what they're talking about. We need some sort of central body to judge things like this. Not random people giving their opinions and then a whole bunch of +1s on Reddit.
I completely agree with you, I was just giving my opinion on people who would group this situation with all the others when It's not the same at all.
On June 06 2012 05:27 Geo.Rion wrote: Btw guys, I just want to put this out there, around the beta, there was a qualifier for the Hungarian national lineup, and i won the finals 3-0, got accused of maphacking. I said, it's complete bullshit, mods looked at the replays, there was no real evidence, case solved, the guy who accuse me after losing the finals disappeared.
Compare that to the recent situation. Spade came out and said u can believe whatever u want, and 1 day later he "retires" because his reputation has been dmged.
There is no dmg done by an unproven accusation, i went on the be part of the national lineup and win a national LAN at Budapest later on.
So I hope everyone gets why i say, he's guilty for sure, 100%, and everyone who still defends him is stupid
Cry about whichunts when people are punished severly for minor offences, not when a hacker gets exposed. GJ to whoever started it
1. who are you? you seem to have really high thougths of yourself as a player?
2. you are making a fool out of yourself using the god awful so called logic in your post. Nobody will get why you say that he is guilty for sure, 100%, because you don't make any sense. What have you brought to the table that makes Spades "for sure guilty, 100%"?
On June 06 2012 05:34 crocodile wrote: First Naniwa, then Orb, then Destiny, now Spades.
Hope you guys are happy. This community SUCKS.
WHAT ?? are you dumb or something? Maby you wanna now all major tournaments invite Spades ... omg
I don't care about whether spades maphacked or not. It's the way you pieces of shit will gleefully ruin people's lives like you're doing the world some sort of good.
You know, I personally think Spades could've handled this MUCH differently.
From my POV until someone is proved guilty, they are innocent, but Spades' reputation wasn't ruined. I personally believe there is too much "circumstantial" evidence to consider him clean, but i don't think that means his reputation is ruined/definitive evidence (for now).
However, my resigning from his team and sounding defeatist, it doesn't exactly help out the innocent side.
Should've pulled a Palmeiro. Just in general, the more passionate you are about something, the more believable you are. Whether you're innocent or guilty, saying "gee well fuck this i'm innocent but i'll just quit everything basically because i'm innocent" doesn't really help your cause.
It's very depressing to know that most people here were expecting some kind of confession. What's the point in confessing when you've already ran him out of town? If he is innocent, it just makes him feel even worse about himself. If he's guilty, so what? He's already fucking out, leave him the fuck alone.
On June 06 2012 05:25 Pwnzer wrote: It's funny to me to see how mad people get at TL moderators. It's specifically stated in their official rules that it's THEIR site and they can do whatever with the site that they please. I think it's pretty obvious that for the most part they try to as impartial as possible, however things like this are going to exist sometimes where there's a grey area open for discussion. It's not the TL moderators faults that Spades was accused of hacking, if you're gonna be mad why not choose between either Spades himself or at the accusers.
On topic: Fool me once, shame on you. Fool me twice, shame on me. I think if he is in fact guilty of hacking, considering his admitting to hacking previously in BW, than he should be black listed like so many people are suggesting.
Yes but we are allowed our opinions about how things should go down as long as they are stated politely. I think it is a horrible idea for the witch hunt to the the "jury" in any of these cases and believe Spades could have had a lot better shot at proving innocence/guilt if that thread wasn't allowed to exist and some simple statement was made that professionals of some sort would look into it.
On June 06 2012 05:42 darthfoley wrote: You know, I personally think Spades could've handled this MUCH differently.
From my POV until someone is proved guilty, they are innocent, but Spades' reputation wasn't ruined. I personally believe there is too much "circumstantial" evidence to consider him clean, but i don't think that means his reputation is ruined/definitive evidence (for now).
However, my resigning from his team and sounding defeatist, it doesn't exactly help out the innocent side.
Should've pulled a Palmeiro. Just in general, the more passionate you are about something, the more believable you are. Whether you're innocent or guilty, saying "gee well fuck this i'm innocent but i'll just quit everything basically because i'm innocent" doesn't really help your cause.
At this point it doesn't matter if he's innocent. His career is over.
On June 06 2012 05:42 darthfoley wrote: You know, I personally think Spades could've handled this MUCH differently.
From my POV until someone is proved guilty, they are innocent, but Spades' reputation wasn't ruined. I personally believe there is too much "circumstantial" evidence to consider him clean, but i don't think that means his reputation is ruined/definitive evidence (for now).
However, my resigning from his team and sounding defeatist, it doesn't exactly help out the innocent side.
Should've pulled a Palmeiro. Just in general, the more passionate you are about something, the more believable you are. Whether you're innocent or guilty, saying "gee well fuck this i'm innocent but i'll just quit everything basically because i'm innocent" doesn't really help your cause.
The team manager made a post part way through that thread the yesterday saying that they might not be able to keep him even if he is innocent now.
On June 06 2012 05:32 sPitcraZy wrote: 1. Stop with the "DO IT AT LAN", according to your logic catz must also be a hacker till he does it at LAN or any other "pro" that has no tournament results. (No results you're all hackers in my eyes now (OH NOOOOOO!!!!!!))
2. Investigation of hacks with BIAS perspectives trying to find "conclusive" evidence with 90% assumptions (REAL SMART...)
3. I feel like there are so many people that lack any authority in their real lives, and finally get that opportunity online and they abuse it.
4. Does this mean a non name in the scene(myself included) can end anyone's career with a simple post (GAME ON!!!!)
Go for it, lets see you try to ruin IdrA's or WhiteRa's career with a post. I'll give you till the end of today.
Wait bro I must target smaller less known players that have no tournament results because it makes it that much easier...
Go try that too. PM me the thread once it's made mmkay?
this is exactly when the pitchforks are justified.
map hacking is intolerable for a pro player - especially a 2nd time! this isn't just ladder points, there's money on the line. He should be banned from all tournaments for life.
On June 06 2012 05:34 crocodile wrote: First Naniwa, then Orb, then Destiny, now Spades.
Hope you guys are happy. This community SUCKS.
I want to punch my screen when I read shit like this.
Hacking is a way bigger deal than any of the other " drama " that doesn't actually impact the integrity of the game and the competition itself.
This is not a pointless witchhunt, this is an important issue. If he's a hacker which it looks like he is then people should be HAPPY that he was ousted.
If he really is a hacker, then I'm glad he's gone (still not convinced he is). The process, though, is incredibly biased and shameful. This "trial by mob" stuff will not last just because we have too many people who over/under-react and/or have no clue what they're talking about. We need some sort of central body to judge things like this. Not random people giving their opinions and then a whole bunch of +1s on Reddit.
thank you, couldn't have said it better myself. 100% what i am thinking
After seeing CatZ stream, and seeing the "perfect scans" in his game, I was convinced he was cheating from that alone. Everything else like army movement is just technically hearsay. But every scan in replays when he was accused of cheating show that he either had to do it from the minimap (Which he had never done before in replays we know he wasn't cheating in.) or he was cheating, because his auto camera lock won't let him shown be looking into the fog of war. Having said this, I'm glad this scumbag is gone. As Incontrol said in SotG yesterday, Burn the fucking cheaters and flush them out.
On June 06 2012 05:44 CrugerDK wrote: good riddance!
this is exactly when the pitchforks are justified.
map hacking is intolerable for a pro player - especially a 2nd time! this isn't just ladder points, there's money on the line. He should be banned from all tournaments for life.
There is NO way that the pitch forks can ever give someone due process and a fair "trial". This witch hunt was a joke and shouldnt have happened.
On June 06 2012 05:42 darthfoley wrote: You know, I personally think Spades could've handled this MUCH differently.
From my POV until someone is proved guilty, they are innocent, but Spades' reputation wasn't ruined. I personally believe there is too much "circumstantial" evidence to consider him clean, but i don't think that means his reputation is ruined/definitive evidence (for now).
However, my resigning from his team and sounding defeatist, it doesn't exactly help out the innocent side.
Should've pulled a Palmeiro. Just in general, the more passionate you are about something, the more believable you are. Whether you're innocent or guilty, saying "gee well fuck this i'm innocent but i'll just quit everything basically because i'm innocent" doesn't really help your cause.
The team manager made a post part way through that thread the yesterday saying that they might not be able to keep him even if he is innocent now.
Oh, I wasn't aware of this. Mind giving me the page link?
Either way, i would've handled this differently if i were in his position. I think he hacks, but i'm no pro, so i won't preach it as gospel.
Spades maphacks in BW, denies it, then gets caught. He is under question for hacking again in SC2, yet we are supposed to believe his word (which was damamged before) despite a host of strange "coincidences" and circumstantial evidence. And now he decided to retire after many pros looking into his replays and believe he does hack. Well that certainly doesn't seem sketchy.
Say what you want about reputation, but if you really loved the game and knew you were innocent, you would probably strive to be as good as you wanted to be when you cheated originally in BW to prove people wrong. Look at TT1, he used to hack, wanted to get better and proved himself while being open about hacking. A lot of people respect TT1 because he earned the respect back after cheating.
Disgusting community at times, at least take more time to consider AND re-consider your arguments and someone else's livelihood before that accusation. One day thread, BOOM. All this drama is really stupid. I wonder why I even read TL anymore aside for tournament results.
On June 06 2012 05:44 CrugerDK wrote: good riddance!
this is exactly when the pitchforks are justified.
map hacking is intolerable for a pro player - especially a 2nd time! this isn't just ladder points, there's money on the line. He should be banned from all tournaments for life.
Which would be great, if we ever actually found out if he was guilty.
He never confessed, and there was never any definitive proof one way or the other. You've all effectively ruined his progaming career because a smurf account posted a bunch of circumstantial evidence. I don't even care if he did it at this point. This has to stop. You all can't just keep running people out of town because of stupid bullshit.
This is really amazing. The angry mob of the internet going around destroying careers ( well he wasn't going to become MVP but ... ) Makes me hate on democracy and mankind in general even more.
On June 06 2012 05:48 Marti wrote: This is really amazing. The angry mob of the internet going around destroying careers ( well he wasn't going to become MVP but ... ) Makes me hate on democracy and mankind in general even more.
People suck man. Especially people who follow SC2, apparently.
On June 06 2012 05:04 Defacer wrote: Spades may be a hacker ... but the way this community, pro players and website handled it was fucking shameful.
Mob justice ended a career overnight, with no conclusive evidence. Congrats, guys.
Instead of waiting to be proven right we force individuals to prove us wrong. That's fucked up.
there is conclusive evidence though, did you even watch catz's analysis?
CatZ's "evidence" was later proven to be inaccurate and invalid.
Bullcrap. Don´t post wrong information like this. It was proven that the magic scan was possible. Does not mean it is a logic action to scan somwhere to then not look at it.
Aside from aaall the other ridicolous moments. Like the scan on Shakuras for example. Srslywtf are you writing?
This community cares! This community does not want people to use the word "nigger", this community does not want their frontmen to act like 12 year old kids. This community does not allow hacking.
I love this community and I am proud of it!
Show me definitive proof that Spades was using a hack, then tell me which hack he was using, when he was using it and for which purpose - then I'll gladly say "you were right all along, and I apolgoize for saying otherwise." Unless you can do this, I suggest you take a step back and realize what you've actually done.
A cheater got ousted and people complain about it. I don't understand this. There is no place for cheaters. So what if spades reputation is ruined. He cheated and he knows it. The worst part is, he doesn't come out and admit it so you guys fight over how badly he was treated when he cheated the ENTIRE TIME.
If Spades came out and said, I cheated and i quit then would you still say all this junk about witch hunts? He isn't getting beheaded or locked up somewhere. He will buy another account, cheat his way back to where he was and re-surface as someone else. That's what cheaters do.
On June 06 2012 05:44 CrugerDK wrote: good riddance!
this is exactly when the pitchforks are justified.
map hacking is intolerable for a pro player - especially a 2nd time! this isn't just ladder points, there's money on the line. He should be banned from all tournaments for life.
Which would be great, if we ever actually found out if he was guilty.
He never confessed, and there was never any definitive proof one way or the other. You've all effectively ruined his progaming career because a smurf account posted a bunch of circumstantial evidence. I don't even care if he did it at this point. This has to stop. You all can't just keep running people out of town because of stupid bullshit.
You will never had definitive proof of maphacking unless the hacker in general is incredibly dumb, and even then someone could probably make an argument that it's still subjective. Honestly, there's enough circumstantial evidence to raise doubts based on the mechanics difference alone, and that's all it takes in the court of public opinion.
On June 06 2012 05:27 Geo.Rion wrote: Btw guys, I just want to put this out there, around the beta, there was a qualifier for the Hungarian national lineup, and i won the finals 3-0, got accused of maphacking. I said, it's complete bullshit, mods looked at the replays, there was no real evidence, case solved, the guy who accuse me after losing the finals disappeared.
Compare that to the recent situation. Spade came out and said u can believe whatever u want, and 1 day later he "retires" because his reputation has been dmged.
There is no dmg done by an unproven accusation, i went on the be part of the national lineup and win a national LAN at Budapest later on.
So I hope everyone gets why i say, he's guilty for sure, 100%, and everyone who still defends him is stupid
Cry about whichunts when people are punished severly for minor offences, not when a hacker gets exposed. GJ to whoever started it
1. who are you? you seem to have really high thougths of yourself as a player?
2. you are making a fool out of yourself using the god awful so called logic in your post. Nobody will get why you say that he is guilty for sure, 100%, because you don't make any sense. What have you brought to the table that makes Spades "for sure guilty, 100%"?
Pleaae elaborate.
WTF? At which point do i claim i think i'm a good player? I said it, it was a national qualifier in the beta. What does that mean internationally? nothing. Is it more then u've done? Yes. Is it relevant to the topic? Yes, since i had similar experience, on a smaller scale. And again, if you believe someone retires from making money out of his hobby because of a baseless accusation from a 1 post user, you're either friends with Spade or ur common sense is non-existent. That's all, im not arguing about it, believe whatever you want, i think it's crystal clear what's happening. By the looks of it some people would defend Spade even if he came out and said, yeah i hacked, cuz What's this witchhunt? who's accusing? community is so hateful. His retirement is harder evidence than i needed to be sure
I haven't seen a single piece of clear-cut evidence presented, if there is any doubt at all over the evidence, then surely you give the benefit of the doubt to Spades?
On June 06 2012 05:44 CrugerDK wrote: good riddance!
this is exactly when the pitchforks are justified.
map hacking is intolerable for a pro player - especially a 2nd time! this isn't just ladder points, there's money on the line. He should be banned from all tournaments for life.
Which would be great, if we ever actually found out if he was guilty.
He never confessed, and there was never any definitive proof one way or the other. You've all effectively ruined his progaming career because a smurf account posted a bunch of circumstantial evidence. I don't even care if he did it at this point. This has to stop. You all can't just keep running people out of town because of stupid bullshit.
You will never had definitive proof of maphacking unless the hacker in general is incredibly dumb, and even then someone could probably make an argument that it's still subjective. Honestly, there's enough circumstantial evidence to raise doubts based on the mechanics difference alone, and that's all it takes in the court of public opinion.
Doubt =! evidence.
Is the evidence against him strong? What if more popular players get accused of hacking?
It's not evidence per say, it's basically people saying "that looks fishy, I wouldn't do that, that is weird, that's odd, that's unlikely"
On June 06 2012 05:48 Marti wrote: This is really amazing. The angry mob of the internet going around destroying careers ( well he wasn't going to become MVP but ... ) Makes me hate on democracy and mankind in general even more.
these kinds of posts just make me fill with rage. trying to make the community feel bad for destroying a MAPHACKERS career? there was alot of evidence towards him being a maphacker and if it wasnt true why did he come in with some defeatist attitude instead of just saying "well im not hacking sorry guys haha" and then he could have just explained the weird 7-8 second camera blocks. for example
hey guys, i just want to respond to the allegations that i was hacking by saying i was not. the "camera blocks" can be explained by the fact that i was dealing with something personal during the showmatch and had to leave the computer for a few seconds once in a while to answer the phone (or some other explanation) and im not sure about the magic scans, it could have been lag, but i can assure you that i was not hacking and i will go so far as to prove it by streaming a few games on my stream later today so you can see my playstyle!
instead he came in and was like "fuckin bs rofl" and basically just trying to make any pro who had anything to say feel bad for saying what they had to say.
On June 06 2012 05:51 TheResidentEvil wrote: A cheater got ousted and people complain about it. I don't understand this. There is no place for cheaters. So what if spades reputation is ruined. He cheated and he knows it. The worst part is, he doesn't come out and admit it so you guys fight over how badly he was treated when he cheated the ENTIRE TIME.
If Spades came out and said, I cheated and i quit then would you still say all this junk about witch hunts? He isn't getting beheaded or locked up somewhere. He will buy another account, cheat his way back to where he was and re-surface as someone else. That's what cheaters do.
We never found out if he was cheating.
Jesus Christ, guys. This isn't like the stuff with Orb and Destiny where we had screenshots and chat logs. No matter how much you look at the replays, you cannot determine from them alone whether or not he was hacking. The only way to know for certain is if he confessed.
I feel like if he was innocent he would have done more to try and disprove it. All he did in the thread was say really ambiguous comments that you can't really challenge.
TL should have closed the thread straight away, however, as there was no hard evidence in there.
EDIT: Did not see the mod warning (don't know how, sorry). Will post in relevant thread.
Someone mentioned haypro as a previous hacker... but the way i remember it there was never any accusations of maphack, only proof that he used a hacking program to observe games (something which I'm sure he wasn't alone in, he just forgot to turn it off) From what i remember his story seemed reliable because nothing fishy was ever found in actual games? Or was there another incident i'm not aware of?
On June 06 2012 05:51 TheResidentEvil wrote: A cheater got ousted and people complain about it. I don't understand this. There is no place for cheaters. So what if spades reputation is ruined. He cheated and he knows it. The worst part is, he doesn't come out and admit it so you guys fight over how badly he was treated when he cheated the ENTIRE TIME.
If Spades came out and said, I cheated and i quit then would you still say all this junk about witch hunts? He isn't getting beheaded or locked up somewhere. He will buy another account, cheat his way back to where he was and re-surface as someone else. That's what cheaters do.
If you whole family's life was on the line and you were forced to pick one of two choices:
1) He may or may not have hacked. 2) He fucking hacked.
You're telling me you'd pick option 2?
I think he's shady as shit but I can't believe the amount of white knights who know 100% beyond a shadow of a doubt that he's guilty and should be guillotined.
Cant believe he is still denying it and his Team stating they dont think he was map hacking hurts them even more than him still being on the team, i think he owes it to the community to just admit it, put it behind him, and move on, otherwise his reputation will be ruined forever, this aint Broodwar.
On June 06 2012 05:44 CrugerDK wrote: good riddance!
this is exactly when the pitchforks are justified.
map hacking is intolerable for a pro player - especially a 2nd time! this isn't just ladder points, there's money on the line. He should be banned from all tournaments for life.
Which would be great, if we ever actually found out if he was guilty.
He never confessed, and there was never any definitive proof one way or the other. You've all effectively ruined his progaming career because a smurf account posted a bunch of circumstantial evidence. I don't even care if he did it at this point. This has to stop. You all can't just keep running people out of town because of stupid bullshit.
You will never had definitive proof of maphacking unless the hacker in general is incredibly dumb, and even then someone could probably make an argument that it's still subjective. Honestly, there's enough circumstantial evidence to raise doubts based on the mechanics difference alone, and that's all it takes in the court of public opinion.
Doubts =! evidence.
Um, circumstantial evidence that raises doubt. Like I said, there will never be definitive proof and at some point you have to make a judgment call. It'd be nice to have an organizing body for that, but until that happens, it will be up to the community.
Specifically, that he plays completely differently in the games vs lucifron compared to ladder games. Regardless of whether it means it's a screen lock or not, that his mechanics are so drastically different is a huge red flag.
On June 06 2012 05:44 CrugerDK wrote: good riddance!
this is exactly when the pitchforks are justified.
map hacking is intolerable for a pro player - especially a 2nd time! this isn't just ladder points, there's money on the line. He should be banned from all tournaments for life.
Which would be great, if we ever actually found out if he was guilty.
He never confessed, and there was never any definitive proof one way or the other. You've all effectively ruined his progaming career because a smurf account posted a bunch of circumstantial evidence. I don't even care if he did it at this point. This has to stop. You all can't just keep running people out of town because of stupid bullshit.
You will never had definitive proof of maphacking unless the hacker in general is incredibly dumb, and even then someone could probably make an argument that it's still subjective. Honestly, there's enough circumstantial evidence to raise doubts based on the mechanics difference alone, and that's all it takes in the court of public opinion.
Doubts =! evidence.
Um, circumstantial evidence that raises doubt. Like I said, there will never be definitive proof and at some point you have to make a judgment call. It'd be nice to have an organizing body for that, but until that happens, it will be up to the community.
A responsible, judgemental call would be to leave him be, and await further notice, not judge him in the dark without evidence.
More than likely Spades was asked to leave WW and they are calling it "retirement" Sounds kinda familiar to the case when Destiny left Quantic. which in his case turned out for the better because now he's back in ROOT.
unknown poster accuses a semipro player of cheating in a showmatch with no proof, and people buy it because he's not the best player and hacked when he was a stupid teenager in another game. and he's not popular, so flocks of supporters wouldn't come to his aid and call him a retard, a hater with no proof etc.
immediately after public attention gets stirred, tons of "pro" players chime in as if any of their opinions are demonstrable, or they're authorities on the matter for playing at a top 1000 or so level and having placed second or first in some online cups, or maybe top whatever in a lan with maybe a few wins on lan worth mentioning on liquipedia, possibly having a stream following too. then even TT1 of all people dares show his face and some of his fans or people who know him 'cause he's oldschool suck up to him while shitting on Spades, which is ironic to say the least.
then Catz makes a douche comment about how he liked the guy but it was clear he cheated but he didn't care to go into it after skimming through the replays, while pretending objectivity - and all his sheep follow suite. they even start a new meme about it on reddit to add to the ridiculousness -in the sense of insanity- of the situation.
meanwhile there is still nothing more than circumstancial evidence, that could be found in tons of players' replays if you look long enough and if there's a significant bias against the person, the syntagm "witch hunt" comes to mind, and i think most of the people in the original thread don't actually understand how that works, or they'd pay some fucking attention to what they're posting.
then the guy does the most sensible and honorable thing to do, which is retire, to save his team the embarrassement, and save the community further hurt by extending the discussion after it was clear it was a lose-lose worse situation, and guess what, it's taken as further evidence of guilt, hmm, you 16-year old fuckers are going full-on standard Inquisition M.O. and don't even realize it.
doesn't even matter if he hacked (then fuck him for lying) or he didn't (then it's tragic) - which you'll never know, since even the most odd of things that people saw in those replays can be explained by the randomness of split-second decisions of a less than pro player (*), the way this thing ran its course is disgusting to say the least, it should really scare people that to this day the angry mob mentality that gave birth to things like the Inquisition can run so freely among such a young demographic, while being made so much worst by the impersonality of internet communication, and how it always shamelessly hunts the weakest targets.
(*)and yes, this is the whole gist of it, Spades, like Catz and the other people involved in this debacle are semipros at best, so their plays from home -not even in a tournament- and understanding of the game aren't ever going to be at even close to the theoretical highest level of play that would provide a good framework to judge "suspicious activities". so when a mediocre player with mediocre understanding judges another mediocre player with mediocre, and often brainfarty, plays, using the standard of perfection as he understands it, while being biased, and getting sought or unsought publicity out of it, guess what's gonna happen. there's a reason the whole "innocent until proven guilty" principle came to exist
On June 06 2012 05:44 CrugerDK wrote: good riddance!
this is exactly when the pitchforks are justified.
map hacking is intolerable for a pro player - especially a 2nd time! this isn't just ladder points, there's money on the line. He should be banned from all tournaments for life.
Which would be great, if we ever actually found out if he was guilty.
He never confessed, and there was never any definitive proof one way or the other. You've all effectively ruined his progaming career because a smurf account posted a bunch of circumstantial evidence. I don't even care if he did it at this point. This has to stop. You all can't just keep running people out of town because of stupid bullshit.
You will never had definitive proof of maphacking unless the hacker in general is incredibly dumb, and even then someone could probably make an argument that it's still subjective. Honestly, there's enough circumstantial evidence to raise doubts based on the mechanics difference alone, and that's all it takes in the court of public opinion.
Doubts =! evidence.
Um, circumstantial evidence that raises doubt. Like I said, there will never be definitive proof and at some point you have to make a judgment call. It'd be nice to have an organizing body for that, but until that happens, it will be up to the community.
A responsible, judgemental call would be to leave him be, not judge him without evidence.
Evidence=/=proof. We do have evidence, we don't have proof.
It's a long read. The OP has most of the information for the initial accusations.
On June 06 2012 05:58 anatem wrote: unknown poster accuses a semipro player of cheating in a showmatch with no proof, and people buy it because he's not the best player and hacked when he was a stupid teenager in another game. and he's not popular, so flocks of supporters wouldn't come to his aid and call him a retard, a hater with no proof etc.
immediately after public attention gets stirred, tons of "pro" players chime in as if any of their opinions are demonstrable, or they're authorities on the matter for playing at a top 1000 or so level and having placed second or first in some online cups, or maybe top whatever in a lan with maybe a few wins on lan worth mentioning on liquipedia, possibly having a stream following too. then even TT1 of all people dares show his face and some of his fans or people who know him 'cause he's oldschool suck up to him while shitting on Spades, which is ironic to say the least.
then Catz makes a douche comment about how he liked the guy but it was clear he cheated but he didn't care to go into it after skimming through the replays, while pretending objectivity - and all his sheep follow suite. they even start a new meme about it on reddit to add to the ridiculousness -in the sense of insanity- of the situation.
meanwhile there is still nothing more than circumstancial evidence, that could be found in tons of players' replays if you look long enough and if there's a significant bias against the person, the syntagm "witch hunt" comes to mind, and i think most of the people in the original thread don't actually understand how that works, or they'd pay some fucking attention to what they're posting.
then the guy does the most sensible and honorable thing to do, which is retire, to save his team the embarrassement, and save the community further hurt by extending the discussion after it was clear it was a lose-lose worse situation, and guess what, it's taken as further evidence of guilt, hmm, you 16-year old fuckers are going full-on standard Inquisition M.O. and don't even realize it.
doesn't even matter if he hacked (then fuck him for lying) or he didn't (then it's tragic) - which you'll never know, since even the most odd of things that people saw in those replays can be explained by the randomness of split-second decisions of a less than pro player (*), the way this thing ran its course is disgusting to say the least, it should really scare people that to this day the angry mob mentality that gave birth to things like the Inquisition can run so freely among such a young demographic, while being made so much worst by the impersonality of internet communication, and how it always shamelessly hunts the weakest targets.
(*)and yes, this is the whole gist of it, Spades, like Catz and the other people involved in this debacle are semipros at best, so their plays from home -not even in a tournament- and understanding of the game aren't ever going to be at even close to the theoretical highest level of play that would provide a good framework to judge "suspicious activities". so when a mediocre player with mediocre understanding judges another mediocre player with mediocre, and often brainfarty, plays, using the standard of perfection as he understands it, while being biased, and getting sought or unsought publicity out of it, guess what's gonna happen. there's a reason the whole "innocent until proven guilty" principle came to exist
That's a kind of false telling of what happened. CatZ wasn't even the first Pro player to say he thought Spades cheated.
Witch hunts have occured for some time now, I guess pro players will have to live with the risk getting their career destroyed by an anonymous accusatory post, whether you like it or not.
And giving a second time offender the benefit of the doubt is not something done easily.
Guilty or innocent the community handled this horribly, i would hate for any of you to be my jury if i were innocent. Im disappointed in the mods for not handling the thread better and waiting for conclusive yes or no on the situation, instead it was left open for the mob to post one liners about how much they hated spades.
On June 06 2012 05:44 CrugerDK wrote: good riddance!
this is exactly when the pitchforks are justified.
map hacking is intolerable for a pro player - especially a 2nd time! this isn't just ladder points, there's money on the line. He should be banned from all tournaments for life.
Which would be great, if we ever actually found out if he was guilty.
He never confessed, and there was never any definitive proof one way or the other. You've all effectively ruined his progaming career because a smurf account posted a bunch of circumstantial evidence. I don't even care if he did it at this point. This has to stop. You all can't just keep running people out of town because of stupid bullshit.
You will never had definitive proof of maphacking unless the hacker in general is incredibly dumb, and even then someone could probably make an argument that it's still subjective. Honestly, there's enough circumstantial evidence to raise doubts based on the mechanics difference alone, and that's all it takes in the court of public opinion.
Doubts =! evidence.
Um, circumstantial evidence that raises doubt. Like I said, there will never be definitive proof and at some point you have to make a judgment call. It'd be nice to have an organizing body for that, but until that happens, it will be up to the community.
A responsible, judgemental call would be to leave him be, not judge him without evidence.
Evidence=/=proof. We do have evidence, we don't have proof.
No, you don't have evidence.
His decision to leave says it all, he's not even denying cheating. Im sorry but this is clearly a hacker right here.
On June 06 2012 05:58 anatem wrote: unknown poster accuses a semipro player of cheating in a showmatch with no proof, and people buy it because he's not the best player and hacked when he was a stupid teenager in another game. and he's not popular, so flocks of supporters wouldn't come to his aid and call him a retard, a hater with no proof etc.
immediately after public attention gets stirred, tons of "pro" players chime in as if any of their opinions are demonstrable, or they're authorities on the matter for playing at a top 1000 or so level and having placed second or first in some online cups, or maybe top whatever in a lan with maybe a few wins on lan worth mentioning on liquipedia, possibly having a stream following too. then even TT1 of all people dares show his face and some of his fans or people who know him 'cause he's oldschool suck up to him while shitting on Spades, which is ironic to say the least.
then Catz makes a douche comment about how he liked the guy but it was clear he cheated but he didn't care to go into it after skimming through the replays, while pretending objectivity - and all his sheep follow suite. they even start a new meme about it on reddit to add to the ridiculousness -in the sense of insanity- of the situation.
meanwhile there is still nothing more than circumstancial evidence, that could be found in tons of players' replays if you look long enough and if there's a significant bias against the person, the syntagm "witch hunt" comes to mind, and i think most of the people in the original thread don't actually understand how that works, or they'd pay some fucking attention to what they're posting.
then the guy does the most sensible and honorable thing to do, which is retire, to save his team the embarrassement, and save the community further hurt by extending the discussion after it was clear it was a lose-lose worse situation, and guess what, it's taken as further evidence of guilt, hmm, you 16-year old fuckers are going full-on standard Inquisition M.O. and don't even realize it.
doesn't even matter if he hacked (then fuck him for lying) or he didn't (then it's tragic) - which you'll never know, since even the most odd of things that people saw in those replays can be explained by the randomness of split-second decisions of a less than pro player (*), the way this thing ran its course is disgusting to say the least, it should really scare people that to this day the angry mob mentality that gave birth to things like the Inquisition can run so freely among such a young demographic, while being made so much worst by the impersonality of internet communication, and how it always shamelessly hunts the weakest targets.
(*)and yes, this is the whole gist of it, Spades, like Catz and the other people involved in this debacle are semipros at best, so their plays from home -not even in a tournament- and understanding of the game aren't ever going to be at even close to the theoretical highest level of play that would provide a good framework to judge "suspicious activities". so when a mediocre player with mediocre understanding judges another mediocre player with mediocre, and often brainfarty, plays, using the standard of perfection as he understands it, while being biased, and getting sought or unsought publicity out of it, guess what's gonna happen. there's a reason the whole "innocent until proven guilty" principle came to exist
someones jimmies are little bit more than rustled about this
On June 06 2012 05:44 CrugerDK wrote: good riddance!
this is exactly when the pitchforks are justified.
map hacking is intolerable for a pro player - especially a 2nd time! this isn't just ladder points, there's money on the line. He should be banned from all tournaments for life.
Which would be great, if we ever actually found out if he was guilty.
He never confessed, and there was never any definitive proof one way or the other. You've all effectively ruined his progaming career because a smurf account posted a bunch of circumstantial evidence. I don't even care if he did it at this point. This has to stop. You all can't just keep running people out of town because of stupid bullshit.
You will never had definitive proof of maphacking unless the hacker in general is incredibly dumb, and even then someone could probably make an argument that it's still subjective. Honestly, there's enough circumstantial evidence to raise doubts based on the mechanics difference alone, and that's all it takes in the court of public opinion.
Doubts =! evidence.
Um, circumstantial evidence that raises doubt. Like I said, there will never be definitive proof and at some point you have to make a judgment call. It'd be nice to have an organizing body for that, but until that happens, it will be up to the community.
A responsible, judgemental call would be to leave him be, not judge him without evidence.
Evidence=/=proof. We do have evidence, we don't have proof.
No, you don't have evidence.
Yes, we do. If you want proof to ban a hacker then no hackers would ever be banned unless someone was recording them from behind with a video camera. that maphacker impa who just got banned? welp, cant ban him without proof, he could have just been lucky proxy 2 gating every correct location. strong evidence but no proof
On June 06 2012 05:44 CrugerDK wrote: good riddance!
this is exactly when the pitchforks are justified.
map hacking is intolerable for a pro player - especially a 2nd time! this isn't just ladder points, there's money on the line. He should be banned from all tournaments for life.
Which would be great, if we ever actually found out if he was guilty.
He never confessed, and there was never any definitive proof one way or the other. You've all effectively ruined his progaming career because a smurf account posted a bunch of circumstantial evidence. I don't even care if he did it at this point. This has to stop. You all can't just keep running people out of town because of stupid bullshit.
You will never had definitive proof of maphacking unless the hacker in general is incredibly dumb, and even then someone could probably make an argument that it's still subjective. Honestly, there's enough circumstantial evidence to raise doubts based on the mechanics difference alone, and that's all it takes in the court of public opinion.
Doubts =! evidence.
Um, circumstantial evidence that raises doubt. Like I said, there will never be definitive proof and at some point you have to make a judgment call. It'd be nice to have an organizing body for that, but until that happens, it will be up to the community.
A responsible, judgemental call would be to leave him be, not judge him without evidence.
Evidence=/=proof. We do have evidence, we don't have proof.
No, you don't have evidence.
What are you talking about the replays, pro's analysis, and Spades' own rebuttals are all evidence. None of it is definitive proof, but it is all circumstantial evidence.
He is quite the popular case yes, but if the people mad at him would actually start hating on Blizzard, you would probably get some official statement regarding hacks pretty soon and maybe force some extra money being spent into solving the hacking issue. I don't know if it's technically possible to stop maphacks though.
On June 06 2012 05:44 CrugerDK wrote: good riddance!
this is exactly when the pitchforks are justified.
map hacking is intolerable for a pro player - especially a 2nd time! this isn't just ladder points, there's money on the line. He should be banned from all tournaments for life.
Which would be great, if we ever actually found out if he was guilty.
He never confessed, and there was never any definitive proof one way or the other. You've all effectively ruined his progaming career because a smurf account posted a bunch of circumstantial evidence. I don't even care if he did it at this point. This has to stop. You all can't just keep running people out of town because of stupid bullshit.
You will never had definitive proof of maphacking unless the hacker in general is incredibly dumb, and even then someone could probably make an argument that it's still subjective. Honestly, there's enough circumstantial evidence to raise doubts based on the mechanics difference alone, and that's all it takes in the court of public opinion.
Doubts =! evidence.
Um, circumstantial evidence that raises doubt. Like I said, there will never be definitive proof and at some point you have to make a judgment call. It'd be nice to have an organizing body for that, but until that happens, it will be up to the community.
A responsible, judgemental call would be to leave him be, not judge him without evidence.
Evidence=/=proof. We do have evidence, we don't have proof.
No, you don't have evidence.
Yes, we do. If you want proof to ban a hacker then no hackers would ever be banned unless someone was recording them from behind with a video camera. that maphacker impa who just got banned? welp, cant ban him without proof, he could have just been lucky proxy 2 gating every correct location. strong evidence but no proof
That's not evidence, though. I'm sorry, but it really isn't.
Well what else should he do? If he wouldn't left he would have been fired. His reputation was already way to good regarding the fact he cheated already. Imho cheaters just don'T deserve a second chance. When you think about the fact they just destroy the work of other serious and honest players which probably don't get a chance because of hackers like him.
I think the retirement is nothing he's really sad about. As someone said in the other thread he pretty much lost his interest in Starcraft 2, started to cheat, probably knewing that this day would come.
btw.: imho no one would retire if he hadn't cheated
On June 06 2012 05:35 LucidityDark wrote: This is one of the precise reasons why this community should stop being so dogmatic and stop witch hunting every few weeks. The "guilty until proven innocent" mentality has severely damaged yet another player's reputation to the point where his entire career is very likely to be completely ruined, and we don't even know if Spades hacked or not.
This is beyond annoying. His reputation is not fucking ruined to the point where his career is ruined. Dragon admitted to fucking cheating, and over a very long period of time was slowly allowed to come back into the community. If he really was dedicated to this game, and really wanted to play it, and was convinced he wasn't hacking he should have said, hey, I didn't hack, do your witch hunt, and keep doing what he does. If he did hack, he should have said, yes I do hack, I apologize to the community, and went quiet for a couple of months and than slowly build his reputation up.
Their are very few situations where someone's reputation is ruined to the point where they wont be able to make a career out of it. The only situation I can think of is the Savior one, where huge amounts of money was involved.
A career as a pro-gamer is one where your living depends upon a lynch mob as your customer, as this community has demonstrated over and over again. It's something that every aspiring pro-gamer, team, endorser, etc. should know ahead of time. A statement like the following strikes me as naive.
We feel that the matter shouldn't have been handled publicly without giving us a chance to review.
Don't expect an industry where the "customers" are predominately a bunch of immature kids with an entitlement complex to handle affairs in a mature way. Got a problem with a word ? Call the sponsors and complain. It won't change because it's engrained in the consumers themselves.
On June 06 2012 05:44 CrugerDK wrote: good riddance!
this is exactly when the pitchforks are justified.
map hacking is intolerable for a pro player - especially a 2nd time! this isn't just ladder points, there's money on the line. He should be banned from all tournaments for life.
Which would be great, if we ever actually found out if he was guilty.
He never confessed, and there was never any definitive proof one way or the other. You've all effectively ruined his progaming career because a smurf account posted a bunch of circumstantial evidence. I don't even care if he did it at this point. This has to stop. You all can't just keep running people out of town because of stupid bullshit.
You will never had definitive proof of maphacking unless the hacker in general is incredibly dumb, and even then someone could probably make an argument that it's still subjective. Honestly, there's enough circumstantial evidence to raise doubts based on the mechanics difference alone, and that's all it takes in the court of public opinion.
Doubts =! evidence.
Um, circumstantial evidence that raises doubt. Like I said, there will never be definitive proof and at some point you have to make a judgment call. It'd be nice to have an organizing body for that, but until that happens, it will be up to the community.
A responsible, judgemental call would be to leave him be, not judge him without evidence.
Evidence=/=proof. We do have evidence, we don't have proof.
No, you don't have evidence.
Yes, we do. If you want proof to ban a hacker then no hackers would ever be banned unless someone was recording them from behind with a video camera. that maphacker impa who just got banned? welp, cant ban him without proof, he could have just been lucky proxy 2 gating every correct location. strong evidence but no proof
That's not evidence, though. I'm sorry, but it really isn't.
Professional debating skills right there. "That's not evidence guys, because it's just not. Trust me."
I really hate this "witch hunt" mentality. Someone thought he did something wrong and called him out on it. I bet if Day 9 murdered someone in cold blood with 1000 eye witnesses people would still be like "OMG LETS NOT START A WITCH HUNT GUYS OK?"
Yeah, if a player was "guilty" then you can say it's justified, but even if they're not NOBODY WAITS FOR PROOF (one way or another) before ripping the shit out of the accused.
I honestly don't see how people can genuinely think treating players like this can be good for the community. Yes it means less "cheaters" but it damages the community itself by turning people against each other and making people think it's fine to treat people like complete trash because they may have possibly been cheating (People were abusing Spades and denouncing him before anyone had even analysed the replays besides the anonymous first poster). And that should NOT be acceptable.
Little Spades is a weirdo, therefore the Liquid kids talked about him alot and were very suspicious. Spades found out about this and was very sad. He then asked the liquid kids if they could become friends again. Some said yes but there were still some kids who said "No you are bad!". Even his very best friends the Western Wolves kids started to be ashamed that they were hanging out with Spades. Spades sensed this and decided to isolate himself from them.
Kindergarten Tststs
If we had some kind of player/league association this would be ezpz
On June 06 2012 05:48 Daralii wrote: [quote] Which would be great, if we ever actually found out if he was guilty.
He never confessed, and there was never any definitive proof one way or the other. You've all effectively ruined his progaming career because a smurf account posted a bunch of circumstantial evidence. I don't even care if he did it at this point. This has to stop. You all can't just keep running people out of town because of stupid bullshit.
You will never had definitive proof of maphacking unless the hacker in general is incredibly dumb, and even then someone could probably make an argument that it's still subjective. Honestly, there's enough circumstantial evidence to raise doubts based on the mechanics difference alone, and that's all it takes in the court of public opinion.
Doubts =! evidence.
Um, circumstantial evidence that raises doubt. Like I said, there will never be definitive proof and at some point you have to make a judgment call. It'd be nice to have an organizing body for that, but until that happens, it will be up to the community.
A responsible, judgemental call would be to leave him be, not judge him without evidence.
Evidence=/=proof. We do have evidence, we don't have proof.
No, you don't have evidence.
Yes, we do. If you want proof to ban a hacker then no hackers would ever be banned unless someone was recording them from behind with a video camera. that maphacker impa who just got banned? welp, cant ban him without proof, he could have just been lucky proxy 2 gating every correct location. strong evidence but no proof
That's not evidence, though. I'm sorry, but it really isn't.
Professional debating skills right there. "That's not evidence guys, because it's just not. Trust me."
What do you want me to say? It's a fact, it's not evidence. I'm not going to tell you why "something we cannot be completely sure about" is "definitive proof"
On June 06 2012 05:44 CrugerDK wrote: good riddance!
this is exactly when the pitchforks are justified.
map hacking is intolerable for a pro player - especially a 2nd time! this isn't just ladder points, there's money on the line. He should be banned from all tournaments for life.
Which would be great, if we ever actually found out if he was guilty.
He never confessed, and there was never any definitive proof one way or the other. You've all effectively ruined his progaming career because a smurf account posted a bunch of circumstantial evidence. I don't even care if he did it at this point. This has to stop. You all can't just keep running people out of town because of stupid bullshit.
You will never had definitive proof of maphacking unless the hacker in general is incredibly dumb, and even then someone could probably make an argument that it's still subjective. Honestly, there's enough circumstantial evidence to raise doubts based on the mechanics difference alone, and that's all it takes in the court of public opinion.
Doubts =! evidence.
Um, circumstantial evidence that raises doubt. Like I said, there will never be definitive proof and at some point you have to make a judgment call. It'd be nice to have an organizing body for that, but until that happens, it will be up to the community.
A responsible, judgemental call would be to leave him be, not judge him without evidence.
Evidence=/=proof. We do have evidence, we don't have proof.
No, you don't have evidence.
Yes, we do. If you want proof to ban a hacker then no hackers would ever be banned unless someone was recording them from behind with a video camera. that maphacker impa who just got banned? welp, cant ban him without proof, he could have just been lucky proxy 2 gating every correct location. strong evidence but no proof
That's not evidence, though. I'm sorry, but it really isn't.
If that's not evidence then why was impa banned from battle.net and demoted to bronze from GM?
On June 06 2012 05:48 Daralii wrote: [quote] Which would be great, if we ever actually found out if he was guilty.
He never confessed, and there was never any definitive proof one way or the other. You've all effectively ruined his progaming career because a smurf account posted a bunch of circumstantial evidence. I don't even care if he did it at this point. This has to stop. You all can't just keep running people out of town because of stupid bullshit.
You will never had definitive proof of maphacking unless the hacker in general is incredibly dumb, and even then someone could probably make an argument that it's still subjective. Honestly, there's enough circumstantial evidence to raise doubts based on the mechanics difference alone, and that's all it takes in the court of public opinion.
Doubts =! evidence.
Um, circumstantial evidence that raises doubt. Like I said, there will never be definitive proof and at some point you have to make a judgment call. It'd be nice to have an organizing body for that, but until that happens, it will be up to the community.
A responsible, judgemental call would be to leave him be, not judge him without evidence.
Evidence=/=proof. We do have evidence, we don't have proof.
No, you don't have evidence.
Yes, we do. If you want proof to ban a hacker then no hackers would ever be banned unless someone was recording them from behind with a video camera. that maphacker impa who just got banned? welp, cant ban him without proof, he could have just been lucky proxy 2 gating every correct location. strong evidence but no proof
That's not evidence, though. I'm sorry, but it really isn't.
If that's not evidence then why was impa banned from battle.net and demoted to bronze from GM?
He streamed himself hacking. Openly. Freely. Carelessly. On purpose.
On June 06 2012 05:52 Myles wrote: [quote] You will never had definitive proof of maphacking unless the hacker in general is incredibly dumb, and even then someone could probably make an argument that it's still subjective. Honestly, there's enough circumstantial evidence to raise doubts based on the mechanics difference alone, and that's all it takes in the court of public opinion.
Doubts =! evidence.
Um, circumstantial evidence that raises doubt. Like I said, there will never be definitive proof and at some point you have to make a judgment call. It'd be nice to have an organizing body for that, but until that happens, it will be up to the community.
A responsible, judgemental call would be to leave him be, not judge him without evidence.
Evidence=/=proof. We do have evidence, we don't have proof.
No, you don't have evidence.
Yes, we do. If you want proof to ban a hacker then no hackers would ever be banned unless someone was recording them from behind with a video camera. that maphacker impa who just got banned? welp, cant ban him without proof, he could have just been lucky proxy 2 gating every correct location. strong evidence but no proof
That's not evidence, though. I'm sorry, but it really isn't.
Professional debating skills right there. "That's not evidence guys, because it's just not. Trust me."
What do you want me to say? It's a fact, it's not evidence. I'm not going to tell you why "something we cannot be completely sure about" is "definitive proof"
I feel like you don't know the difference between evidence and proof.
On June 06 2012 05:52 Myles wrote: [quote] You will never had definitive proof of maphacking unless the hacker in general is incredibly dumb, and even then someone could probably make an argument that it's still subjective. Honestly, there's enough circumstantial evidence to raise doubts based on the mechanics difference alone, and that's all it takes in the court of public opinion.
Doubts =! evidence.
Um, circumstantial evidence that raises doubt. Like I said, there will never be definitive proof and at some point you have to make a judgment call. It'd be nice to have an organizing body for that, but until that happens, it will be up to the community.
A responsible, judgemental call would be to leave him be, not judge him without evidence.
Evidence=/=proof. We do have evidence, we don't have proof.
No, you don't have evidence.
Yes, we do. If you want proof to ban a hacker then no hackers would ever be banned unless someone was recording them from behind with a video camera. that maphacker impa who just got banned? welp, cant ban him without proof, he could have just been lucky proxy 2 gating every correct location. strong evidence but no proof
That's not evidence, though. I'm sorry, but it really isn't.
Professional debating skills right there. "That's not evidence guys, because it's just not. Trust me."
What do you want me to say? It's a fact, it's not evidence. I'm not going to tell you why "something we cannot be completely sure about" is "definitive proof"
lol. How many times do you have to be told that evidence != definitive proof?
Um, circumstantial evidence that raises doubt. Like I said, there will never be definitive proof and at some point you have to make a judgment call. It'd be nice to have an organizing body for that, but until that happens, it will be up to the community.
A responsible, judgemental call would be to leave him be, not judge him without evidence.
Evidence=/=proof. We do have evidence, we don't have proof.
No, you don't have evidence.
Yes, we do. If you want proof to ban a hacker then no hackers would ever be banned unless someone was recording them from behind with a video camera. that maphacker impa who just got banned? welp, cant ban him without proof, he could have just been lucky proxy 2 gating every correct location. strong evidence but no proof
That's not evidence, though. I'm sorry, but it really isn't.
Professional debating skills right there. "That's not evidence guys, because it's just not. Trust me."
What do you want me to say? It's a fact, it's not evidence. I'm not going to tell you why "something we cannot be completely sure about" is "definitive proof"
I feel like you don't know the difference between evidence and proof.
Okay, let's say that "we" have evidence but no proof, yet, maybe -- how can you justify that?
On June 06 2012 05:58 anatem wrote: unknown poster accuses a semipro player of cheating in a showmatch with no proof, and people buy it because he's not the best player and hacked when he was a stupid teenager in another game. and he's not popular, so flocks of supporters wouldn't come to his aid and call him a retard, a hater with no proof etc.
immediately after public attention gets stirred, tons of "pro" players chime in as if any of their opinions are demonstrable, or they're authorities on the matter for playing at a top 1000 or so level and having placed second or first in some online cups, or maybe top whatever in a lan with maybe a few wins on lan worth mentioning on liquipedia, possibly having a stream following too. then even TT1 of all people dares show his face and some of his fans or people who know him 'cause he's oldschool suck up to him while shitting on Spades, which is ironic to say the least.
then Catz makes a douche comment about how he liked the guy but it was clear he cheated but he didn't care to go into it after skimming through the replays, while pretending objectivity - and all his sheep follow suite. they even start a new meme about it on reddit to add to the ridiculousness -in the sense of insanity- of the situation.
meanwhile there is still nothing more than circumstancial evidence, that could be found in tons of players' replays if you look long enough and if there's a significant bias against the person, the syntagm "witch hunt" comes to mind, and i think most of the people in the original thread don't actually understand how that works, or they'd pay some fucking attention to what they're posting.
then the guy does the most sensible and honorable thing to do, which is retire, to save his team the embarrassement, and save the community further hurt by extending the discussion after it was clear it was a lose-lose worse situation, and guess what, it's taken as further evidence of guilt, hmm, you 16-year old fuckers are going full-on standard Inquisition M.O. and don't even realize it.
doesn't even matter if he hacked (then fuck him for lying) or he didn't (then it's tragic) - which you'll never know, since even the most odd of things that people saw in those replays can be explained by the randomness of split-second decisions of a less than pro player (*), the way this thing ran its course is disgusting to say the least, it should really scare people that to this day the angry mob mentality that gave birth to things like the Inquisition can run so freely among such a young demographic, while being made so much worst by the impersonality of internet communication, and how it always shamelessly hunts the weakest targets.
(*)and yes, this is the whole gist of it, Spades, like Catz and the other people involved in this debacle are semipros at best, so their plays from home -not even in a tournament- and understanding of the game aren't ever going to be at even close to the theoretical highest level of play that would provide a good framework to judge "suspicious activities". so when a mediocre player with mediocre understanding judges another mediocre player with mediocre, and often brainfarty, plays, using the standard of perfection as he understands it, while being biased, and getting sought or unsought publicity out of it, guess what's gonna happen. there's a reason the whole "innocent until proven guilty" principle came to exist
someones jimmies are little bit more than rustled about this
for one, this whole thing is embarrassing to me personally as an esports follower.
secondly, the way the community reacted to this situation is well in tune with all the absurdity going on every day around us irl, that funnily enough sites like reddit mock every single day.
as for Spades himself, i don't really care, he might as well have cheated his ass off and had it coming to him. but that anyone can be subjected to this ignorant and hateful treatment while knowing full well that if he was a popular or extremely good player this never would have happened and the guy calling "hack!" would have likely had his thread closed for good, is something that should worry all of us.
I am not a professional player, and have only looked through a few of the replays. I saw some odd events, but that's all I would call them.
I hope the community got this one right, this would be a good reminder for all of us to be VERY thorough in investigations before even bringing about allegations. I'm not commenting on the way it was done this time or Spades' innocence/guilt, but all of us have now seen the almost irreversible damage news like this does to a career, I just hope it is always done to those who are always guilty.
Everyone who is massively complaining at the "community", what are you thinking?
TL has so far come to the "conclussion" (the text they put at the top of the first thread regarding this matter) that we simply cannot know for sure thus far. Most people are suspicious or very suspicious as they should be given the circumstances and given Spades history. But thats it. There is no official verdict yet and i find it really strange that Spades seems to blame this suspiciousness to be the cause of his retirement. Man, 1 day has past, why arent you demaning that this is being looked into more thoroughly?
I would have imagined Spades (if he is completely innocent) doing things like looking up the current hacks to create replays when using those to compare those replays to his showmatch replays. And further calling for a thorough investigation by a couple of pros that would be willing to take on the task. Seing how much attention this is getting im sure some more pros (other the Catz etc.) would be willing to do this. They could do it while streaming which would result in really good viewership numbers.
The fact that Spades from the start wrote things like: "there is no point, there is no way to proove i didnt hack" and "doesnt matter my reputation is now destroyed" (after just hours had past that is) and that he now chooses to retire from his team after only 1 day is like people has stated, suspicious. Man if you know you did nothing wrong you have nothing to loose. Im sorry but given your history im leaning towards that cheating indeed went down in that showmatch.
this is a good day for esports. it goes to show what goes around comes around. spades got what was coming to him for hacking/stream cheating/whatever he did. justice is served, to show all that cheating doesnt pay
On June 06 2012 05:52 Myles wrote: [quote] You will never had definitive proof of maphacking unless the hacker in general is incredibly dumb, and even then someone could probably make an argument that it's still subjective. Honestly, there's enough circumstantial evidence to raise doubts based on the mechanics difference alone, and that's all it takes in the court of public opinion.
Doubts =! evidence.
Um, circumstantial evidence that raises doubt. Like I said, there will never be definitive proof and at some point you have to make a judgment call. It'd be nice to have an organizing body for that, but until that happens, it will be up to the community.
A responsible, judgemental call would be to leave him be, not judge him without evidence.
Evidence=/=proof. We do have evidence, we don't have proof.
No, you don't have evidence.
Yes, we do. If you want proof to ban a hacker then no hackers would ever be banned unless someone was recording them from behind with a video camera. that maphacker impa who just got banned? welp, cant ban him without proof, he could have just been lucky proxy 2 gating every correct location. strong evidence but no proof
That's not evidence, though. I'm sorry, but it really isn't.
Professional debating skills right there. "That's not evidence guys, because it's just not. Trust me."
What do you want me to say? It's a fact, it's not evidence. I'm not going to tell you why "something we cannot be completely sure about" is "definitive proof"
What you, ToiletCAT, says is just hilarious. If it's not enough evidence no one would ever be banned if he's not streaming it. Probably even if someone saw it with his eyes, while standing behind him. Probably he was drunken or most likely he's just lying?
On June 06 2012 05:55 Myles wrote: [quote] Um, circumstantial evidence that raises doubt. Like I said, there will never be definitive proof and at some point you have to make a judgment call. It'd be nice to have an organizing body for that, but until that happens, it will be up to the community.
A responsible, judgemental call would be to leave him be, not judge him without evidence.
Evidence=/=proof. We do have evidence, we don't have proof.
No, you don't have evidence.
Yes, we do. If you want proof to ban a hacker then no hackers would ever be banned unless someone was recording them from behind with a video camera. that maphacker impa who just got banned? welp, cant ban him without proof, he could have just been lucky proxy 2 gating every correct location. strong evidence but no proof
That's not evidence, though. I'm sorry, but it really isn't.
Professional debating skills right there. "That's not evidence guys, because it's just not. Trust me."
What do you want me to say? It's a fact, it's not evidence. I'm not going to tell you why "something we cannot be completely sure about" is "definitive proof"
I feel like you don't know the difference between evidence and proof.
Okay, let's say that "we" have evidence but no proof, yet, maybe -- how can you justify that?
When there is evidence but no 'smoking gun', so to say, people will look at everything and make a judgment call. It happens every day in real courts, the only difference being the standard of doubt there(at least in US) courts is probably higher.
However, regardless of whether or not you think the evidence presented is enough to make a judgment call, to make the claim that there isn't any evidence at all is just moronic.
Good job everybody. You just destroyed a man's career and now he probably has to work @ a macdonalds for $8 an hour. are you all happy with your witch hunt?
On June 06 2012 05:35 LucidityDark wrote: This is one of the precise reasons why this community should stop being so dogmatic and stop witch hunting every few weeks. The "guilty until proven innocent" mentality has severely damaged yet another player's reputation to the point where his entire career is very likely to be completely ruined, and we don't even know if Spades hacked or not.
This is beyond annoying. His reputation is not fucking ruined to the point where his career is ruined. Dragon admitted to fucking cheating, and over a very long period of time was slowly allowed to come back into the community. If he really was dedicated to this game, and really wanted to play it, and was convinced he wasn't hacking he should have said, hey, I didn't hack, do your witch hunt, and keep doing what he does. If he did hack, he should have said, yes I do hack, I apologize to the community, and went quiet for a couple of months and than slowly build his reputation up.
Their are very few situations where someone's reputation is ruined to the point where they wont be able to make a career out of it. The only situation I can think of is the Savior one, where huge amounts of money was involved.
You're right, we should just all take matters into our own hands because we ourselves know how unbiased and 100% right we are all the time. Why have courts, judges and lawyers when we can go just go with our gut feelin' amirite!?
On June 06 2012 05:27 Geo.Rion wrote: Btw guys, I just want to put this out there, around the beta, there was a qualifier for the Hungarian national lineup, and i won the finals 3-0, got accused of maphacking. I said, it's complete bullshit, mods looked at the replays, there was no real evidence, case solved, the guy who accuse me after losing the finals disappeared.
Compare that to the recent situation. Spade came out and said u can believe whatever u want, and 1 day later he "retires" because his reputation has been dmged.
There is no dmg done by an unproven accusation, i went on the be part of the national lineup and win a national LAN at Budapest later on.
So I hope everyone gets why i say, he's guilty for sure, 100%, and everyone who still defends him is stupid
I say concluding that someone is guilty of hacking without proof is stupid.
you keep saying there is no real proof that he hacks, what proof do you want? there are tons of evidence in multiple games that suggests he maphacks and still you are not convinced? sure some of the evidence provided are sketchy but what are you looking for in particular? perhaps the proof you are looking for is for spades to admit himself that "i'm a hacker" ? in that case that may happen or he may never admit to hacking. If he doesnt admit, then you say he doesnt hack?
Um, circumstantial evidence that raises doubt. Like I said, there will never be definitive proof and at some point you have to make a judgment call. It'd be nice to have an organizing body for that, but until that happens, it will be up to the community.
A responsible, judgemental call would be to leave him be, not judge him without evidence.
Evidence=/=proof. We do have evidence, we don't have proof.
No, you don't have evidence.
Yes, we do. If you want proof to ban a hacker then no hackers would ever be banned unless someone was recording them from behind with a video camera. that maphacker impa who just got banned? welp, cant ban him without proof, he could have just been lucky proxy 2 gating every correct location. strong evidence but no proof
That's not evidence, though. I'm sorry, but it really isn't.
Professional debating skills right there. "That's not evidence guys, because it's just not. Trust me."
What do you want me to say? It's a fact, it's not evidence. I'm not going to tell you why "something we cannot be completely sure about" is "definitive proof"
What you, ToiletCAT, says is just hilarious. If it's not enough evidence no one would ever be banned if he's not streaming it. Probably even if someone saw it with his eyes, while standing behind him. Probably he was drunken or most likely he's just lying?
I'm just asking a simple question that none of you can answer, it seems. How can you in your right mind "conclude" something without proof?
you keep saying there is no real proof that he hacks, what proof do you want? there are tons of evidence in multiple games that suggests he maphacks and still you are not convinced? sure some of the evidence provided are sketchy but what are you looking for in particular? perhaps the proof you are looking for is for spades to admit himself that "i'm a hacker" ? in that case that may happen or he may never admit to hacking. If he doesnt admit, then you say he doesnt hack?
I already told you. Tell me which hack he is using, when he is using it and for which purpose and if you could, wait for Warden to be able to detect it. Until then, your so-called "evidence" is not enough, but that doesn't matter now, because his career is ruined and he's gone, and we probably won't ever find out of he actually did hack, which only indicates that he most likely didn't.
I don't buy into this "innocent until proven guilty" shit when the guy had a reputation of hacking in BW. I think the only possible solution is spades and lucifron playing each other in a LAN tournament within 10 days so I can compare his showmatch replays and LAN replays. And what he should've done was instead of saying "random chance", "standard tvt stuff", he should've analyzed his 7 games go through the thought process of what he was doing and thinking so he at least put effort in defending his case. Instead he didn't try, only cared about his reputation, making vague/general statements anyone can make when you lie, etc. <Put in some fucking effort to defend your case first before talking about sponsers, invitation to showmatch because in the past you did hack so if you didn't do it, make analytical statements to prove the doubters wrong.> And last thing for TL, if your going to reopen the original thread find the ip of the OP and tell the name because this is serious accusation and no longer some kids playing in the backyard fighting.
This guy - spades is really extraordinary and shameless.... He fucking cheats , ... FUCKING CHEATS and then good guy catched him , pointed it out , and now he says : my reputation is damaged and gone , im the only victim in this whole 200 page thread... No dude , ur not the victim... ur the guilty and you should admit that cause everybody knows you cheats as you did in broodwar , besides you and your "friends" from the team / old teams. You better say thanks to WW for giving you possibility to write your retire statement on your own and lie even more , instead of they just kick your cheating ass off. Hope you will never touch starcraft anymore , shameless hacker.
Its obvious that person who is victim fights for his rights and dont give up and say "fuck this...." bassicly.
On June 06 2012 05:55 Myles wrote: [quote] Um, circumstantial evidence that raises doubt. Like I said, there will never be definitive proof and at some point you have to make a judgment call. It'd be nice to have an organizing body for that, but until that happens, it will be up to the community.
A responsible, judgemental call would be to leave him be, not judge him without evidence.
Evidence=/=proof. We do have evidence, we don't have proof.
No, you don't have evidence.
Yes, we do. If you want proof to ban a hacker then no hackers would ever be banned unless someone was recording them from behind with a video camera. that maphacker impa who just got banned? welp, cant ban him without proof, he could have just been lucky proxy 2 gating every correct location. strong evidence but no proof
That's not evidence, though. I'm sorry, but it really isn't.
Professional debating skills right there. "That's not evidence guys, because it's just not. Trust me."
What do you want me to say? It's a fact, it's not evidence. I'm not going to tell you why "something we cannot be completely sure about" is "definitive proof"
What you, ToiletCAT, says is just hilarious. If it's not enough evidence no one would ever be banned if he's not streaming it. Probably even if someone saw it with his eyes, while standing behind him. Probably he was drunken or most likely he's just lying?
I'm just asking a simple question that none of you can answer, it seems. How can you in your right mind "conclude" something without proof?
So please tell me what is a proof for you? And what is evidence for you? And where is the difference for you? If you claritfy this a little bit better then "That's not evidence, though. I'm sorry, but it really isn't." we might discuss this.
On June 06 2012 05:55 Myles wrote: [quote] Um, circumstantial evidence that raises doubt. Like I said, there will never be definitive proof and at some point you have to make a judgment call. It'd be nice to have an organizing body for that, but until that happens, it will be up to the community.
A responsible, judgemental call would be to leave him be, not judge him without evidence.
Evidence=/=proof. We do have evidence, we don't have proof.
No, you don't have evidence.
Yes, we do. If you want proof to ban a hacker then no hackers would ever be banned unless someone was recording them from behind with a video camera. that maphacker impa who just got banned? welp, cant ban him without proof, he could have just been lucky proxy 2 gating every correct location. strong evidence but no proof
That's not evidence, though. I'm sorry, but it really isn't.
Professional debating skills right there. "That's not evidence guys, because it's just not. Trust me."
What do you want me to say? It's a fact, it's not evidence. I'm not going to tell you why "something we cannot be completely sure about" is "definitive proof"
What you, ToiletCAT, says is just hilarious. If it's not enough evidence no one would ever be banned if he's not streaming it. Probably even if someone saw it with his eyes, while standing behind him. Probably he was drunken or most likely he's just lying?
I'm just asking a simple question that none of you can answer, it seems. How can you in your right mind "conclude" something without proof?
you conclude it beyond reasonable doubt, anyone looking at this objectively without getting all "omgzzz the community sucks !!!1!!!" can see that he more than likely hacked
It feels like hating the "evil mob" is the new thing here!? Even if the opinions of that "mob" are backed up by evidence and most progamers who analyzed this topic?
A responsible, judgemental call would be to leave him be, not judge him without evidence.
Evidence=/=proof. We do have evidence, we don't have proof.
No, you don't have evidence.
Yes, we do. If you want proof to ban a hacker then no hackers would ever be banned unless someone was recording them from behind with a video camera. that maphacker impa who just got banned? welp, cant ban him without proof, he could have just been lucky proxy 2 gating every correct location. strong evidence but no proof
That's not evidence, though. I'm sorry, but it really isn't.
Professional debating skills right there. "That's not evidence guys, because it's just not. Trust me."
What do you want me to say? It's a fact, it's not evidence. I'm not going to tell you why "something we cannot be completely sure about" is "definitive proof"
What you, ToiletCAT, says is just hilarious. If it's not enough evidence no one would ever be banned if he's not streaming it. Probably even if someone saw it with his eyes, while standing behind him. Probably he was drunken or most likely he's just lying?
I'm just asking a simple question that none of you can answer, it seems. How can you in your right mind "conclude" something without proof?
So please tell me what is a proof for you? And what is evidence for you? And where is the difference for you? If you claritfy this a little bit better then "That's not evidence, though. I'm sorry, but it really isn't." we might discuss this.
I'd assume that he means that the evidence is not conclusive. It would not stand up in a real court process, however it IS suspicious. That does not mean he is guilty though. No one gave him due process in this event.
It's funny, with all the witch hunting... I've noticed a odd amount of the users totally shitting on Spades consisted of users who bitch all the time in balance discussions. Hopefully, next time another player is thrown under the bus blizzard can announce another patch so the idiots who are posting can be slimmed down to the regular squabbling over who's races dick is bigger than the others.
Spades, you'll likely not read this, but you were a damn good terran and a good up and coming player, my personal advice would be to simply forget the haters, and take the next 6months to just play and improve, then come back to the scene... But I understand how difficult and betrayed you probably feel. Goodluck in your future, preferably pick a game without such an immature audience next time you want to go pro though...
Speaking of which, I now find it mildly ironic Nony mentioned how mature (age wise) are community was on SOTG, it doesn't seem to correlate with how we act.
finding the IP of the OP, it's unlikely it's even related to anyone. for example, if i wanted to frame someone, i could get my cousins from china to make an account and paste my writeup. the IP does absolutely nothing, unless there is a related IP with a PRO, but even then pros can be logging in from public wifis.
and if the OP turns out to be random hater...well what can we do against that.
A responsible, judgemental call would be to leave him be, not judge him without evidence.
Evidence=/=proof. We do have evidence, we don't have proof.
No, you don't have evidence.
Yes, we do. If you want proof to ban a hacker then no hackers would ever be banned unless someone was recording them from behind with a video camera. that maphacker impa who just got banned? welp, cant ban him without proof, he could have just been lucky proxy 2 gating every correct location. strong evidence but no proof
That's not evidence, though. I'm sorry, but it really isn't.
Professional debating skills right there. "That's not evidence guys, because it's just not. Trust me."
What do you want me to say? It's a fact, it's not evidence. I'm not going to tell you why "something we cannot be completely sure about" is "definitive proof"
What you, ToiletCAT, says is just hilarious. If it's not enough evidence no one would ever be banned if he's not streaming it. Probably even if someone saw it with his eyes, while standing behind him. Probably he was drunken or most likely he's just lying?
I'm just asking a simple question that none of you can answer, it seems. How can you in your right mind "conclude" something without proof?
you conclude it beyond reasonable doubt, anyone looking at this objectively without getting all "omgzzz the community sucks !!!1!!!" can see that he more than likely hacked
Yep something ToiletCAT doesn't understand. Even in the courts it's proven beyond reasonable doubt. Also he doesn't seem to understand this is the ONLY way you can handle hacking accusations while there isn't a perfect anti-hack program in place.
On June 06 2012 04:57 OzkanTheFlip wrote: Spades, no1 wants you quit, worst case scenario is you made a mistake and hopefully admit to it and grow some balls your still going to do well.
What are you talking about? "No one wants you to quit?" He was already caught hacking in BW and given another chance, but if he did in fact cheat here AGAIN, then he definitely should be banished from the community.
Anyone who took time yesterday and analyzed the "evidence" knows its easily enough material to safely say Spades was hacking or at least cheating in some manner. In that showmatch and for at least some ladder games over the past months.
For him to continue to deny is laughable at this point. Spades has not handled this professionally at all, his image has been ruined because the truth was so clearly evident early on and he continued to deny it. Most of the people defending him I'm sure have not spent the hours analyzing the evidence.
The whole situation is just shitty now and makes me really sad.
A responsible, judgemental call would be to leave him be, not judge him without evidence.
Evidence=/=proof. We do have evidence, we don't have proof.
No, you don't have evidence.
Yes, we do. If you want proof to ban a hacker then no hackers would ever be banned unless someone was recording them from behind with a video camera. that maphacker impa who just got banned? welp, cant ban him without proof, he could have just been lucky proxy 2 gating every correct location. strong evidence but no proof
That's not evidence, though. I'm sorry, but it really isn't.
Professional debating skills right there. "That's not evidence guys, because it's just not. Trust me."
What do you want me to say? It's a fact, it's not evidence. I'm not going to tell you why "something we cannot be completely sure about" is "definitive proof"
What you, ToiletCAT, says is just hilarious. If it's not enough evidence no one would ever be banned if he's not streaming it. Probably even if someone saw it with his eyes, while standing behind him. Probably he was drunken or most likely he's just lying?
I'm just asking a simple question that none of you can answer, it seems. How can you in your right mind "conclude" something without proof?
you conclude it beyond reasonable doubt, anyone looking at this objectively without getting all "omgzzz the community sucks !!!1!!!" can see that he more than likely hacked
Look, I'm having a really tough time taking you seriously because your main argument throughout this whole episode has been "anyone who doesn't agree with us are stupid and are not right in their heads, and it's so obvious because he does things that are unlikely or weird"
I never said that this community sucks, so stop mixing the things I say up with what others say and feel. I'm disappointed in some of you, because you think you rightfully concluded that Spades was hacking without proof. That's a fact, you do not have any kind of proof, only "odd and fishy" replays, which essentially could mean anything. I realize that it's extremely hard to find out whether or not someone is hacking today, but you've got to understand that I think it's wrong of me to judge others before I know for sure what they have committed. If you cannot accept that, then that's fine, but I certainly assume that you have the right amount of brain cells insided that skull of yours to understand that I think what you've done is wrong, and that's final.
On June 06 2012 05:58 Myles wrote: [quote] Evidence=/=proof. We do have evidence, we don't have proof.
No, you don't have evidence.
Yes, we do. If you want proof to ban a hacker then no hackers would ever be banned unless someone was recording them from behind with a video camera. that maphacker impa who just got banned? welp, cant ban him without proof, he could have just been lucky proxy 2 gating every correct location. strong evidence but no proof
That's not evidence, though. I'm sorry, but it really isn't.
Professional debating skills right there. "That's not evidence guys, because it's just not. Trust me."
What do you want me to say? It's a fact, it's not evidence. I'm not going to tell you why "something we cannot be completely sure about" is "definitive proof"
What you, ToiletCAT, says is just hilarious. If it's not enough evidence no one would ever be banned if he's not streaming it. Probably even if someone saw it with his eyes, while standing behind him. Probably he was drunken or most likely he's just lying?
I'm just asking a simple question that none of you can answer, it seems. How can you in your right mind "conclude" something without proof?
So please tell me what is a proof for you? And what is evidence for you? And where is the difference for you? If you claritfy this a little bit better then "That's not evidence, though. I'm sorry, but it really isn't." we might discuss this.
I'd assume that he means that the evidence is not conclusive. It would not stand up in a real court process, however it IS suspicious. That does not mean he is guilty though. No one gave him due process in this event.
Imho it definitly does. The fact he never looks into the fog of war is pretty much a conclusive evidence. Because seriously: Just try to play a ladder game without looking into the fog of war EVER. I bet you won't get it done.
On June 06 2012 05:58 Myles wrote: [quote] Evidence=/=proof. We do have evidence, we don't have proof.
No, you don't have evidence.
Yes, we do. If you want proof to ban a hacker then no hackers would ever be banned unless someone was recording them from behind with a video camera. that maphacker impa who just got banned? welp, cant ban him without proof, he could have just been lucky proxy 2 gating every correct location. strong evidence but no proof
That's not evidence, though. I'm sorry, but it really isn't.
Professional debating skills right there. "That's not evidence guys, because it's just not. Trust me."
What do you want me to say? It's a fact, it's not evidence. I'm not going to tell you why "something we cannot be completely sure about" is "definitive proof"
What you, ToiletCAT, says is just hilarious. If it's not enough evidence no one would ever be banned if he's not streaming it. Probably even if someone saw it with his eyes, while standing behind him. Probably he was drunken or most likely he's just lying?
I'm just asking a simple question that none of you can answer, it seems. How can you in your right mind "conclude" something without proof?
you conclude it beyond reasonable doubt, anyone looking at this objectively without getting all "omgzzz the community sucks !!!1!!!" can see that he more than likely hacked
Yep something ToiletCAT doesn't understand. Even in the courts it's proven beyond reasonable doubt. Also he doesn't seem to understand this is the ONLY way you can handle hacking accusations while there isn't a perfect anti-hack program in place.
You're not a anti-hacking software, it is not your job, stop pretending that you can fix this on your own. This is all I'm saying. And for the record, don't tell others what I do and do not understand, you got that? I can talk for myself, thank you.
On June 06 2012 05:58 Myles wrote: [quote] Evidence=/=proof. We do have evidence, we don't have proof.
No, you don't have evidence.
Yes, we do. If you want proof to ban a hacker then no hackers would ever be banned unless someone was recording them from behind with a video camera. that maphacker impa who just got banned? welp, cant ban him without proof, he could have just been lucky proxy 2 gating every correct location. strong evidence but no proof
That's not evidence, though. I'm sorry, but it really isn't.
Professional debating skills right there. "That's not evidence guys, because it's just not. Trust me."
What do you want me to say? It's a fact, it's not evidence. I'm not going to tell you why "something we cannot be completely sure about" is "definitive proof"
What you, ToiletCAT, says is just hilarious. If it's not enough evidence no one would ever be banned if he's not streaming it. Probably even if someone saw it with his eyes, while standing behind him. Probably he was drunken or most likely he's just lying?
I'm just asking a simple question that none of you can answer, it seems. How can you in your right mind "conclude" something without proof?
you conclude it beyond reasonable doubt, anyone looking at this objectively without getting all "omgzzz the community sucks !!!1!!!" can see that he more than likely hacked
Yep something ToiletCAT doesn't understand. Even in the courts it's proven beyond reasonable doubt. Also he doesn't seem to understand this is the ONLY way you can handle hacking accusations while there isn't a perfect anti-hack program in place.
Umm, no it's not. There are all types of legal standard burdens of proof and "beyond reasonable doubt" is only used in criminal proceedings (mostly). While pitchforkers would call this a criminal act, this would be more of a civil nature so therefore the burden of proof isn't actually as stringent.
Disclaimer - I am not a lawyer, but I played one in law school.
This is just sad, that this could happen without any evidence is genuinely disturbing. And yes i analyzed the replays and didnt find concrete proof. also studies his replay pack but not as hard
On June 06 2012 05:58 Myles wrote: [quote] Evidence=/=proof. We do have evidence, we don't have proof.
No, you don't have evidence.
Yes, we do. If you want proof to ban a hacker then no hackers would ever be banned unless someone was recording them from behind with a video camera. that maphacker impa who just got banned? welp, cant ban him without proof, he could have just been lucky proxy 2 gating every correct location. strong evidence but no proof
That's not evidence, though. I'm sorry, but it really isn't.
Professional debating skills right there. "That's not evidence guys, because it's just not. Trust me."
What do you want me to say? It's a fact, it's not evidence. I'm not going to tell you why "something we cannot be completely sure about" is "definitive proof"
What you, ToiletCAT, says is just hilarious. If it's not enough evidence no one would ever be banned if he's not streaming it. Probably even if someone saw it with his eyes, while standing behind him. Probably he was drunken or most likely he's just lying?
I'm just asking a simple question that none of you can answer, it seems. How can you in your right mind "conclude" something without proof?
you conclude it beyond reasonable doubt, anyone looking at this objectively without getting all "omgzzz the community sucks !!!1!!!" can see that he more than likely hacked
Look, I'm having a really tough time taking you seriously because your main argument throughout this whole episode has been "anyone who doesn't agree with us are stupid and are not right in their heads, and it's so obvious because he does things that are unlikely or weird"
I never said that this community sucks, so stop mixing the things I say up with what others say and feel. I'm disappointed in some of you, because you think you rightfully concluded that Spades was hacking without proof. That's a fact, you do not have any kind of proof, only "odd and fishy" replays, which essentially could mean anything. I realize that it's extremely hard to find out whether or not someone is hacking today, but you've got to understand that I think it's wrong of me to judge others before I know for sure what they have committed. If you cannot accept that, then that's fine, but I certainly assume that you have the right amount of brain cells insided that skull of yours to understand that I think what you've done is wrong, and that's final.
I don't mean to get involved, but I'd like to say that I, personally, feel you're one of the few sensible people in this whole topic.
The best thing to do in any scenario is to begin by telling the truth then following up with a sincere apology.
His recent streak of on again off again gaming shows that he is not a fully dedicated pro-gamer. Without going back at it full bore he will never be respected again. Prove us all wrong by dedicating your time to SC2 all over again and making a great showing at a LAN--
On June 06 2012 06:08 BlackGosu wrote: this is a good day for esports. it goes to show what goes around comes around. spades got what was coming to him for hacking/stream cheating/whatever he did. justice is served, to show all that cheating doesnt pay
No, it's a pretty bad one. Its people raising pitchforks for something that might, or might not have happend and nobody has a real clue (yet?). I sometimes hope "in dubio pro reo" would come up more often on the internet, to much withhunting and judging prematurely. A good day for eSport would be one where this kind of accusation would lead to civil discussion with no one calling names and only judging after getting sufficient proof, or when in doubt dropt the accusations.
On June 06 2012 05:04 Defacer wrote: Spades may be a hacker ... but the way this community, pro players and website handled it was fucking shameful.
Mob justice ended a career overnight, with no conclusive evidence. Congrats, guys.
Instead of waiting to be proven right we force individuals to prove us wrong. That's fucked up.
there is conclusive evidence though, did you even watch catz's analysis?
CatZ's "evidence" was later proven to be inaccurate and invalid.
Never looking into the fog of war? Actually never.
Perfectly predicting enemy movement without vision?
Several blatantly terrible choices in a row that paid off just because of luck?
There is such an infinitesimally small chance that he was not hacking. Any of these alone is not enough, but all of them together is pretty damning.
It's suspicious as fuck, I agree, but it's not proof.
Edit: just read the mod-update, I'm done. Have fun all.
The old way that hacking was proven in the past is no longer possible. Clicking on units, tracking camera position etc are all accounted for in the hack these guys used. It doesn't get any more conclusive than the proof presented. It was proof enough that many pros, not just catz and illu all agreed on.
Oh my god. I really can't read the word "witch" anymore. Probably I have to stay away from here for the next 2? months... The destiny thing was stupid. But this is a serious issue which have to be dealt with. The fact he retires shows that he cheated. He pretty much admitted it by leaving the team.
On June 06 2012 05:04 Defacer wrote: Spades may be a hacker ... but the way this community, pro players and website handled it was fucking shameful.
Mob justice ended a career overnight, with no conclusive evidence. Congrats, guys.
Instead of waiting to be proven right we force individuals to prove us wrong. That's fucked up.
there is conclusive evidence though, did you even watch catz's analysis?
CatZ's "evidence" was later proven to be inaccurate and invalid.
Never looking into the fog of war? Actually never.
Perfectly predicting enemy movement without vision?
Several blatantly terrible choices in a row that paid off just because of luck?
There is such an infinitesimally small chance that he was not hacking. Any of these alone is not enough, but all of them together is pretty damning.
Everyone saying the evidence isn't good enough either hasn't reviewed the replays extensively/heard CatZ's arguments or simply aren't high enough level players to understand how ridiculous it is to be playing with completely different habits in two sets of replays.
On June 06 2012 05:04 Defacer wrote: Spades may be a hacker ... but the way this community, pro players and website handled it was fucking shameful.
Mob justice ended a career overnight, with no conclusive evidence. Congrats, guys.
Instead of waiting to be proven right we force individuals to prove us wrong. That's fucked up.
there is conclusive evidence though, did you even watch catz's analysis?
CatZ's "evidence" was later proven to be inaccurate and invalid.
Bullcrap. Don´t post wrong information like this. It was proven that the magic scan was possible. Does not mean it is a logic action to scan somwhere to then not look at it.
Aside from aaall the other ridicolous moments. Like the scan on Shakuras for example. Srslywtf are you writing?
This community cares! This community does not want people to use the word "nigger", this community does not want their frontmen to act like 12 year old kids. This community does not allow hacking.
I love this community and I am proud of it!
Show me definitive proof that Spades was using a hack, then tell me which hack he was using, when he was using it and for which purpose - then I'll gladly say "you were right all along, and I apolgoize for saying otherwise." Unless you can do this, I suggest you take a step back and realize what you've actually done.
His scanning, him not looking into the FOW, his army movement and most importantly the judgements of people who actually know what they are talking about are 99% for me. The fact that he was already hacking in BW is the missing 1%.
I also want to adress people talking about a "mob mentality". This is not quite the case. The "mob" is led by pro WHO KNOW THEIR SHIT. Not a single pro has EVEN TRIED to explain the really suspicious stuff.
On June 06 2012 06:25 roym899 wrote: Oh my god. I really can't read the word "witch" anymore. Probably I have to stay away from here for the next 2? months... The destiny thing was stupid. But this is a serious issue which have to be dealt with. The fact he retires shows that he cheated. He pretty much admitted it by leaving the team.
Er, no. Given the fact that he already wasn't very popular combined with the massive thread pretty much means that his reputation, and by extent that of WW, was tarnished pretty irreparably.
He could either retire to keep the rest of WW out of it, or WW could fire him for the same reason. He was fucked no matter what.
On June 06 2012 05:04 Defacer wrote: Spades may be a hacker ... but the way this community, pro players and website handled it was fucking shameful.
Mob justice ended a career overnight, with no conclusive evidence. Congrats, guys.
Instead of waiting to be proven right we force individuals to prove us wrong. That's fucked up.
there is conclusive evidence though, did you even watch catz's analysis?
CatZ's "evidence" was later proven to be inaccurate and invalid.
Never looking into the fog of war? Actually never.
Perfectly predicting enemy movement without vision?
Several blatantly terrible choices in a row that paid off just because of luck?
There is such an infinitesimally small chance that he was not hacking. Any of these alone is not enough, but all of them together is pretty damning.
I have watched every replay in fpview and he looks in the fog a total of 5 or so times across the 6 (?) games. When we're talking about such a small amount of games, it's not entirely unlikely that he correctly anticipated army movement on a few occurences.
On June 06 2012 05:04 Defacer wrote: Spades may be a hacker ... but the way this community, pro players and website handled it was fucking shameful.
Mob justice ended a career overnight, with no conclusive evidence. Congrats, guys.
Instead of waiting to be proven right we force individuals to prove us wrong. That's fucked up.
there is conclusive evidence though, did you even watch catz's analysis?
CatZ's "evidence" was later proven to be inaccurate and invalid.
Bullcrap. Don´t post wrong information like this. It was proven that the magic scan was possible. Does not mean it is a logic action to scan somwhere to then not look at it.
Aside from aaall the other ridicolous moments. Like the scan on Shakuras for example. Srslywtf are you writing?
This community cares! This community does not want people to use the word "nigger", this community does not want their frontmen to act like 12 year old kids. This community does not allow hacking.
I love this community and I am proud of it!
Show me definitive proof that Spades was using a hack, then tell me which hack he was using, when he was using it and for which purpose - then I'll gladly say "you were right all along, and I apolgoize for saying otherwise." Unless you can do this, I suggest you take a step back and realize what you've actually done.
His scanning, him not looking into the FOW, his army movement and most importantly the judgements of people who actually know what they are talking about are 99% for me. The fact that he was already hacking in BW is the missing 1%.
I also want to adress people talking about a "mob mentality". This is not quite the case. The "mob" is led by pro WHO KNOW THEIR SHIT. Not a single pro has EVEN TRIED to explain the really suspicious stuff.
Several pro's have analyzed the replays and come to the conclusion that he probably doesn't cheat.
CHACHACHA CHEATER!!!! You did the worst thing you can do...continually lie about it even when we all know you cheated. Man up, tell the truth, give us more names of people who cheat, and then go on with your life never playing sc2 again. THANK YOU!
Hmm I don't understand the mindset here. He hasn't been convicted guilty or innocent yet. To opt to leave from his team just seems like a childish thing to do for someone who wants attention to play the victim. If he had any tact he'd stay with his team and prove his innocence like a REAL MAN (in over the top burly man voice) would do!
On June 06 2012 06:10 LanTAs wrote: Good job everybody. You just destroyed a man's career and now he probably has to work @ a macdonalds for $8 an hour. are you all happy with your witch hunt?
Was he getting a salary from WW? I have never heard about them before.
On June 06 2012 06:29 LimeNade wrote: Hmm I don't understand the mindset here. He hasn't been convicted guilty or innocent yet. To opt to leave from his team just seems like a childish thing to do for someone who wants attention to play the victim. If he had any tact he'd stay with his team and prove his innocence like a REAL MAN (in over the top burly man voice) would do!
On June 06 2012 05:55 Myles wrote: [quote] Um, circumstantial evidence that raises doubt. Like I said, there will never be definitive proof and at some point you have to make a judgment call. It'd be nice to have an organizing body for that, but until that happens, it will be up to the community.
A responsible, judgemental call would be to leave him be, not judge him without evidence.
Evidence=/=proof. We do have evidence, we don't have proof.
No, you don't have evidence.
Yes, we do. If you want proof to ban a hacker then no hackers would ever be banned unless someone was recording them from behind with a video camera. that maphacker impa who just got banned? welp, cant ban him without proof, he could have just been lucky proxy 2 gating every correct location. strong evidence but no proof
That's not evidence, though. I'm sorry, but it really isn't.
Professional debating skills right there. "That's not evidence guys, because it's just not. Trust me."
What do you want me to say? It's a fact, it's not evidence. I'm not going to tell you why "something we cannot be completely sure about" is "definitive proof"
What you, ToiletCAT, says is just hilarious. If it's not enough evidence no one would ever be banned if he's not streaming it. Probably even if someone saw it with his eyes, while standing behind him. Probably he was drunken or most likely he's just lying?
I'm just asking a simple question that none of you can answer, it seems. How can you in your right mind "conclude" something without proof?
you keep saying there is no real proof that he hacks, what proof do you want? there are tons of evidence in multiple games that suggests he maphacks and still you are not convinced? sure some of the evidence provided are sketchy but what are you looking for in particular? perhaps the proof you are looking for is for spades to admit himself that "i'm a hacker" ? in that case that may happen or he may never admit to hacking. If he doesnt admit, then you say he doesnt hack?
I already told you. Tell me which hack he is using, when he is using it and for which purpose and if you could, wait for Warden to be able to detect it. Until then, your so-called "evidence" is not enough, but that doesn't matter now, because his career is ruined and he's gone, and we probably won't ever find out of he actually did hack, which only indicates that he most likely didn't.
ok, now i know what proof you are looking for we can advance this discussion. According to you, a hacker should not be called a hacker if we dont know what the name of the hack he is using. As for when and purpose....what is the point here? ask yourself what is a hack and its purpose..? and wait for warden to detect it?? are you kidding me? Also, did you spend sometime looking at the TL hacker banlist? hackers were determined and banned by hard evidences but none are actual proof (in your standard). To be honest, some of the evidence in that thread seem less obvious than spades games here in which he tries to play stupid but couldnt hide the fact that he sees everything (cs reference: if you know an enemy is behind a wall, its very hard to ignore that fact).
If we are going by your standard of "proof", the TL hacker banlist will almost be empty.
On June 06 2012 05:58 Myles wrote: [quote] Evidence=/=proof. We do have evidence, we don't have proof.
No, you don't have evidence.
Yes, we do. If you want proof to ban a hacker then no hackers would ever be banned unless someone was recording them from behind with a video camera. that maphacker impa who just got banned? welp, cant ban him without proof, he could have just been lucky proxy 2 gating every correct location. strong evidence but no proof
That's not evidence, though. I'm sorry, but it really isn't.
Professional debating skills right there. "That's not evidence guys, because it's just not. Trust me."
What do you want me to say? It's a fact, it's not evidence. I'm not going to tell you why "something we cannot be completely sure about" is "definitive proof"
What you, ToiletCAT, says is just hilarious. If it's not enough evidence no one would ever be banned if he's not streaming it. Probably even if someone saw it with his eyes, while standing behind him. Probably he was drunken or most likely he's just lying?
I'm just asking a simple question that none of you can answer, it seems. How can you in your right mind "conclude" something without proof?
you conclude it beyond reasonable doubt, anyone looking at this objectively without getting all "omgzzz the community sucks !!!1!!!" can see that he more than likely hacked
Yep something ToiletCAT doesn't understand. Even in the courts it's proven beyond reasonable doubt. Also he doesn't seem to understand this is the ONLY way you can handle hacking accusations while there isn't a perfect anti-hack program in place.
You didnt put much thought into it if you think a mob is the ONLY way to do this. You ever stop and think that perhaps the team could have had a few pro players look into it rather than the mob mentality that went on?
Look up herd mentality or Information cascade for reference as to why this was an awful way to handle anything.
I wish Spades the best of luck. I have never known him as a gamer, never seen him on stream.
Being innocent or not is irrelevant: I'm quite disappointed in the way things went and the people contributing nothing but hatred for suspects; being civilised is apparently of no value to those people..
On June 06 2012 06:25 roym899 wrote: Oh my god. I really can't read the word "witch" anymore. Probably I have to stay away from here for the next 2? months... The destiny thing was stupid. But this is a serious issue which have to be dealt with. The fact he retires shows that he cheated. He pretty much admitted it by leaving the team.
I didn't know being forced off your team because of awful PR = pleading guilt. This is the reason why this community is so downright awful at times, people are out for blood and don't use their god damn brains.
Wow, this community makes it really easy to destroy someone's career without convincing, beyond a reasonable doubt, evidence of guilt. No wonder pros rarely post on here, anymore.
Either way, a good move on Spades that was necessary because this community consists, to a large part, of gullible children.
Hmm, this is happening again? One thread can ruin someone's career just like that, huh? Regardless of the conclusion on his "maphacking", it's so fucking pathetic that his career ended because of ONE person with some unproven theories. Bad on TL's part as well, as they should have closed the thread right away. Staying away from this site for a long time, this is getting too stupid and childish, really.
On June 06 2012 05:55 Myles wrote: [quote] Um, circumstantial evidence that raises doubt. Like I said, there will never be definitive proof and at some point you have to make a judgment call. It'd be nice to have an organizing body for that, but until that happens, it will be up to the community.
A responsible, judgemental call would be to leave him be, not judge him without evidence.
Evidence=/=proof. We do have evidence, we don't have proof.
No, you don't have evidence.
Yes, we do. If you want proof to ban a hacker then no hackers would ever be banned unless someone was recording them from behind with a video camera. that maphacker impa who just got banned? welp, cant ban him without proof, he could have just been lucky proxy 2 gating every correct location. strong evidence but no proof
That's not evidence, though. I'm sorry, but it really isn't.
Professional debating skills right there. "That's not evidence guys, because it's just not. Trust me."
What do you want me to say? It's a fact, it's not evidence. I'm not going to tell you why "something we cannot be completely sure about" is "definitive proof"
I feel like you don't know the difference between evidence and proof.
Okay, let's say that "we" have evidence but no proof, yet, maybe -- how can you justify that?
I don't believe you know anything about evidence, proof or justice.
I feel this way because you appear to use the terms interchangeably and then when asked about it you respond in the form of a question. Thereby failing to address the issue.
On June 06 2012 05:04 Defacer wrote: Spades may be a hacker ... but the way this community, pro players and website handled it was fucking shameful.
Mob justice ended a career overnight, with no conclusive evidence. Congrats, guys.
Instead of waiting to be proven right we force individuals to prove us wrong. That's fucked up.
there is conclusive evidence though, did you even watch catz's analysis?
CatZ's "evidence" was later proven to be inaccurate and invalid.
Never looking into the fog of war? Actually never.
Perfectly predicting enemy movement without vision?
Several blatantly terrible choices in a row that paid off just because of luck?
There is such an infinitesimally small chance that he was not hacking. Any of these alone is not enough, but all of them together is pretty damning.
I have watched every replay in fpview and he looks in the fog a total of 5 or so times across the 6 (?) games. When we're talking about such a small amount of games, it's not entirely unlikely that he correctly anticipated army movement on a few occurences.
On June 06 2012 05:04 Defacer wrote: Spades may be a hacker ... but the way this community, pro players and website handled it was fucking shameful.
Mob justice ended a career overnight, with no conclusive evidence. Congrats, guys.
Instead of waiting to be proven right we force individuals to prove us wrong. That's fucked up.
there is conclusive evidence though, did you even watch catz's analysis?
CatZ's "evidence" was later proven to be inaccurate and invalid.
Bullcrap. Don´t post wrong information like this. It was proven that the magic scan was possible. Does not mean it is a logic action to scan somwhere to then not look at it.
Aside from aaall the other ridicolous moments. Like the scan on Shakuras for example. Srslywtf are you writing?
This community cares! This community does not want people to use the word "nigger", this community does not want their frontmen to act like 12 year old kids. This community does not allow hacking.
I love this community and I am proud of it!
Show me definitive proof that Spades was using a hack, then tell me which hack he was using, when he was using it and for which purpose - then I'll gladly say "you were right all along, and I apolgoize for saying otherwise." Unless you can do this, I suggest you take a step back and realize what you've actually done.
His scanning, him not looking into the FOW, his army movement and most importantly the judgements of people who actually know what they are talking about are 99% for me. The fact that he was already hacking in BW is the missing 1%.
I also want to adress people talking about a "mob mentality". This is not quite the case. The "mob" is led by pro WHO KNOW THEIR SHIT. Not a single pro has EVEN TRIED to explain the really suspicious stuff.
Several pro's have analyzed the replays and come to the conclusion that he probably doesn't cheat.
That is not what I have heard when I was following this story. Most pros have come down on the side that the play was really fishy and did not seem on the up and up. Everyone I respected who reviewed the replays pretty much agreed they were extreamly odd and did not reflect legitmate play.
And it was not the mob that took him down. The thread only got fired up once professional players started to make their opinion known.
On June 06 2012 05:58 Myles wrote: [quote] Evidence=/=proof. We do have evidence, we don't have proof.
No, you don't have evidence.
Yes, we do. If you want proof to ban a hacker then no hackers would ever be banned unless someone was recording them from behind with a video camera. that maphacker impa who just got banned? welp, cant ban him without proof, he could have just been lucky proxy 2 gating every correct location. strong evidence but no proof
That's not evidence, though. I'm sorry, but it really isn't.
Professional debating skills right there. "That's not evidence guys, because it's just not. Trust me."
What do you want me to say? It's a fact, it's not evidence. I'm not going to tell you why "something we cannot be completely sure about" is "definitive proof"
What you, ToiletCAT, says is just hilarious. If it's not enough evidence no one would ever be banned if he's not streaming it. Probably even if someone saw it with his eyes, while standing behind him. Probably he was drunken or most likely he's just lying?
I'm just asking a simple question that none of you can answer, it seems. How can you in your right mind "conclude" something without proof?
you conclude it beyond reasonable doubt, anyone looking at this objectively without getting all "omgzzz the community sucks !!!1!!!" can see that he more than likely hacked
Look, I'm having a really tough time taking you seriously because your main argument throughout this whole episode has been "anyone who doesn't agree with us are stupid and are not right in their heads, and it's so obvious because he does things that are unlikely or weird"
I never said that this community sucks, so stop mixing the things I say up with what others say and feel. I'm disappointed in some of you, because you think you rightfully concluded that Spades was hacking without proof. That's a fact, you do not have any kind of proof, only "odd and fishy" replays, which essentially could mean anything. I realize that it's extremely hard to find out whether or not someone is hacking today, but you've got to understand that I think it's wrong of me to judge others before I know for sure what they have committed. If you cannot accept that, then that's fine, but I certainly assume that you have the right amount of brain cells insided that skull of yours to understand that I think what you've done is wrong, and that's final.
Buzzwords odd and fishy seem to be the new craze to be used in place of suspicious and non habitual.
A bank is robbed in a town that I just happen to be stopping in but never visited to prior. The next morning I am questioned because "I fit the description" its possible my things might be searched because "I fit the description" Im released from the station. Say this is a small town some people will have formulated in their mind I am guilty some will not.
Thats all that happened here, his actions in the bo7 called into question! No one sentenced him to death, life without possibility of parole, or house arrest.
Another example high profile celebrity is accused of rape. Goes to trial the accuser says she wants to drop the trial because she doesn't like media invading her privacy. Reports come out that there was a settlement reach out of court for a undisclosed amount.
Was she a gold digger? Was it consensual sex? Was it actually Rape and she really didnt like media in her private life and the celeb payed money just to keep her quiet about the incident or about a affair that went wrong. Can speculate all day long but public will formulate there opinion regardless.
Look at Casey Anthony proved innocent there are still a large number of people believe she is guilty.
I dont see how people can sympathize with this guy. HE USED MAP HACKS!! Thats like people sympathizing with Barry Bonds, Sammy Sosa, etc and saying oh man you cant get into the hall of fame? aww you poor baby. Please, we cant let people who cheat stay around, some people live off this game and dont cheat and when people gain that unfair advantage they cant make money playing online tournaments.
On June 06 2012 06:34 SoloZergg wrote: Hmm, this is happening again? One thread can ruin someone's career just like that, huh? Regardless of the conclusion on his "maphacking", it's so fucking pathetic that his career ended because of ONE person with some unproven theories. Bad on TL's part as well, as they should have closed the thread right away. Staying away from this site for a long time, this is getting too stupid and childish, really.
One way of not letting one thread ruin your career is to not quit your team within 24 hours of said thread being posted.
Why do people who always get caught never man up and admit their wrong doings? It would get so much respect from peers and fans of the game. It's like people who go on murder sprees and then commit suicide because they dont want to deal with the aftermath. All cowards.
Peace kid. Glad hacking scum like him are being erased from the community.
Spades grow a pair of balls and admit you fucked up. Everyone fucks up and does something stupid one time or another, what separates men from bitches is taking ownership of your mistakes. It's obvious you're not only a hacker, but a pussy as well.
It's still not sure whether he have hacked or not.
I think this matter should be investigated in more detail in order to get to the right conclusion.
Personally, I think that if the evidence shows that he cheated he should be punished severely. A retirement from e-sports in general should be the right thing. I don't even understand any team wanted him, after it has already been proven that he cheated in BW.
I don't understand people saying that cheaters should be granted some slack. It is only healthy for e-sports in general to severely punish hackers/cheaters. It's not a matter of being civil or not, but trying to keep the scene clean of anyone that cheats, and making clear of the consequences of such actions.
On June 06 2012 06:35 TommyP wrote: I dont see how people can sympathize with this guy. HE USED MAP HACKS!! Thats like people sympathizing with Barry Bonds, Sammy Sosa, etc and saying oh man you cant get into the hall of fame? aww you poor baby. Please, we cant let people who cheat stay around, some people live off this game and dont cheat and when people gain that unfair advantage they cant make money playing online tournaments.
Are you just downright retarded? Why should murderers have lawyers? They are murderers. -_-' And besides, judging from the thread, there wasn't quite consensus on the subject, how convinced you may be.
On June 06 2012 06:34 SoloZergg wrote: Hmm, this is happening again? One thread can ruin someone's career just like that, huh? Regardless of the conclusion on his "maphacking", it's so fucking pathetic that his career ended because of ONE person with some unproven theories. Bad on TL's part as well, as they should have closed the thread right away. Staying away from this site for a long time, this is getting too stupid and childish, really.
One way of not letting one thread ruin your career is to not quit your team within 24 hours of said thread being posted.
True, very true. But his reputation was already fucked, as everyone has said...because of a single thread from someone unknown.
On June 06 2012 06:37 matiK23 wrote: Why do people who always get caught never man up and admit their wrong doings? It would get so much respect from peers and fans of the game. It's like people who go on murder sprees and then commit suicide because they dont want to deal with the aftermath. All cowards.
I completely agree, if he has any respect for the game, he will admit his wrong doings.
On June 06 2012 06:29 LimeNade wrote: Hmm I don't understand the mindset here. He hasn't been convicted guilty or innocent yet. To opt to leave from his team just seems like a childish thing to do for someone who wants attention to play the victim. If he had any tact he'd stay with his team and prove his innocence like a REAL MAN (in over the top burly man voice) would do!
Wish people would stop speculating with half baked psychoanalysis. The guy is under a lot of pressure right now whether he's innocent or guilty, it's an extreme situation and I'm sure he's emotionally fucked right now. This isn't just a game this guy plays like most of us, it's his career and reputation that's his put tons of time and effort over the last 2 years developing.
For me to speculate and question how someone reacts to high stress situation is the 'childish thing to do'. And if he isn't guilty then to actually leave his team to remove the negative press from them takes a big man. Innocent until proven guilty isn't just for the movies kids.
Its hard to go against Catz and all the pro players who decided to chime in (most of them believe he maphacked or stream cheated). I didn't watch the replays but based on trusted sources, it is very likely that he did indeed hack. If so, he should never be allowed to play this game professionally again. Especially because these accusations are made over replays from a show match.
On June 06 2012 06:34 SoloZergg wrote: Hmm, this is happening again? One thread can ruin someone's career just like that, huh? Regardless of the conclusion on his "maphacking", it's so fucking pathetic that his career ended because of ONE person with some unproven theories. Bad on TL's part as well, as they should have closed the thread right away. Staying away from this site for a long time, this is getting too stupid and childish, really.
One way of not letting one thread ruin your career is to not quit your team within 24 hours of said thread being posted.
He didn't have a choice. It doesn't matter anymore if he's guilty or innocent; his reputation is stained, and it would be PR suicide for any team to associate with him at this point, especially with it being impossible to come up with a definitive conclusion. If he didn't step down, WW would have fired him.
On June 06 2012 06:34 SoloZergg wrote: Hmm, this is happening again? One thread can ruin someone's career just like that, huh? Regardless of the conclusion on his "maphacking", it's so fucking pathetic that his career ended because of ONE person with some unproven theories. Bad on TL's part as well, as they should have closed the thread right away. Staying away from this site for a long time, this is getting too stupid and childish, really.
One way of not letting one thread ruin your career is to not quit your team within 24 hours of said thread being posted.
True, very true. But his reputation was already fucked, as everyone has said...because of a single thread from someone unknown.
I think if he wouldve came in that thread and said "ahahahahhahaha good thread bro, im going to ladder" and never said anything else that he wouldve been better.
From now on, since e-Sports is a much bigger thing, we can't tolerate hackers at all, and we can't forgive players. We have to make it clear that in each action lies consequences.
On June 06 2012 06:37 matiK23 wrote: Why do people who always get caught never man up and admit their wrong doings? It would get so much respect from peers and fans of the game. It's like people who go on murder sprees and then commit suicide because they dont want to deal with the aftermath. All cowards.
I completely agree, if he has any respect for the game, he will admit his wrong doings.
Want to know one reason why some people dont admit things? Because they didnt do them. Spades hasn't been given a fair chance to prove he is innocent and likely wont unless another pro player really goes out of his way to analyse games and find guilt or innocence.
On June 06 2012 06:32 Yorbon wrote: I wish Spades the best of luck. I have never known him as a gamer, never seen him on stream.
Being innocent or not is irrelevant: I'm quite disappointed in the way things went and the people contributing nothing but hatred for suspects; being civilised is apparently of no value to those people..
Teamliquid forums or not, this is still the internet.
On June 06 2012 06:34 SoloZergg wrote: Hmm, this is happening again? One thread can ruin someone's career just like that, huh? Regardless of the conclusion on his "maphacking", it's so fucking pathetic that his career ended because of ONE person with some unproven theories. Bad on TL's part as well, as they should have closed the thread right away. Staying away from this site for a long time, this is getting too stupid and childish, really.
One way of not letting one thread ruin your career is to not quit your team within 24 hours of said thread being posted.
True, very true. But his reputation was already fucked, as everyone has said...because of a single thread from someone unknown.
I think if he wouldve came in that thread and said "ahahahahhahaha good thread bro, im going to ladder" and never said anything else that he wouldve been better.
So you want him to react like some 13 year old kid? I hope he is guilty or this community just destroyed someones life.
On June 06 2012 06:32 Yorbon wrote: I wish Spades the best of luck. I have never known him as a gamer, never seen him on stream.
Being innocent or not is irrelevant: I'm quite disappointed in the way things went and the people contributing nothing but hatred for suspects; being civilised is apparently of no value to those people..
Teamliquid forums or not, this is still the internet.
On June 06 2012 06:37 matiK23 wrote: Why do people who always get caught never man up and admit their wrong doings? It would get so much respect from peers and fans of the game. It's like people who go on murder sprees and then commit suicide because they dont want to deal with the aftermath. All cowards.
I completely agree, if he has any respect for the game, he will admit his wrong doings.
Want to know one reason why some people dont admit things? Because they didnt do them. Spades hasn't been given a fair chance to prove he is innocent and likely wont unless another pro player really goes out of his way to analyse games and find guilt or innocence.
Catz, drewbie, illusion, and TTI went way out of their way to analyse the games, and they all decided that he did hack. I dont know what else you're looking for
On June 06 2012 06:37 matiK23 wrote: Why do people who always get caught never man up and admit their wrong doings? It would get so much respect from peers and fans of the game. It's like people who go on murder sprees and then commit suicide because they dont want to deal with the aftermath. All cowards.
I completely agree, if he has any respect for the game, he will admit his wrong doings.
Want to know one reason why some people dont admit things? Because they didnt do them. Spades hasn't been given a fair chance to prove he is innocent and likely wont unless another pro player really goes out of his way to analyse games and find guilt or innocence.
Did you watch Catz's stream? The Root player watched the replays to determine for themselves, they were so confidnet that he map hacked that they would risk their names to prove that to 6k others. Imagine if he is proven not guilty how bad that would be for Drewbie, Catz, TT1, Illusion. They wouldnt have done that broadcast had they not been certain.He did it.
On June 06 2012 06:34 SoloZergg wrote: Hmm, this is happening again? One thread can ruin someone's career just like that, huh? Regardless of the conclusion on his "maphacking", it's so fucking pathetic that his career ended because of ONE person with some unproven theories. Bad on TL's part as well, as they should have closed the thread right away. Staying away from this site for a long time, this is getting too stupid and childish, really.
One way of not letting one thread ruin your career is to not quit your team within 24 hours of said thread being posted.
True, very true. But his reputation was already fucked, as everyone has said...because of a single thread from someone unknown.
I think if he wouldve came in that thread and said "ahahahahhahaha good thread bro, im going to ladder" and never said anything else that he wouldve been better.
So you want him to react like some 13 year old kid? I hope he is guilty or this community just destroyed someones life.
Destroyed his life, because he can't play a videogame for money anymore? Really?
Disappointing outcome, I always hate to see people's reputation's crushed without 100% solid proof. I feel sorry for Spades, as a person and esports guy.
Elbow bump to spades, hope you get things on track soon.
On June 06 2012 06:46 Mo0Rauder wrote: Disappointing outcome, I always hate to see people's reputation's crushed without 100% solid proof. I feel sorry for Spades, as a person and esports guy.
Elbow bump to spades, hope you get things on track soon.
As a fellow MVP fan, I feel i am required to tell you that he hacked and we cant let him be around the scene anymore, it had to be done. MVP Fighting!
On June 06 2012 06:34 SoloZergg wrote: Hmm, this is happening again? One thread can ruin someone's career just like that, huh? Regardless of the conclusion on his "maphacking", it's so fucking pathetic that his career ended because of ONE person with some unproven theories. Bad on TL's part as well, as they should have closed the thread right away. Staying away from this site for a long time, this is getting too stupid and childish, really.
One way of not letting one thread ruin your career is to not quit your team within 24 hours of said thread being posted.
True, very true. But his reputation was already fucked, as everyone has said...because of a single thread from someone unknown.
I think if he wouldve came in that thread and said "ahahahahhahaha good thread bro, im going to ladder" and never said anything else that he wouldve been better.
So you want him to react like some 13 year old kid? I hope he is guilty or this community just destroyed someones life.
Destroyed his life, because he can't play a videogame for money anymore? Really?
I guess when you lose your hard worked for job because of one internet thread you will have the same opinion as this?
Also to the other person; I noticed various pros like Nericho? who questioned the legitmacy of the claims. I also saw TT1 who you quoted say that there needs to be a much bigger sample size to analyze or it isn't fair.
On June 06 2012 04:57 dLG)Bananenbaum wrote: if a politician fucks the people, hes out. if a professional sportsman is getting caught doping, hes out.
if you HACK for ONE TIME, guess what. your fuckin out.
Well, with the sportsman example, you needed to be tested for doping. Not have a bunch of nerds throw wild accusations at someone on a internet forum.
Yes except leagues do the testing in sports. We do not have a body of people who decide who hacks or uses substances like Adderall. The community has been the voice on this subject.
On June 06 2012 06:44 NeuTrons12 wrote: He is depressed and fat that probably caused to hacking.
User was warned for this post
Can we actually get a ban on this idiot? He will do no good in this community, and is blatantly being an imbecile. Just curious, but if I called sheth depressed and fat would I simply be warned? Especially in a thread regarding his reputation?
On June 06 2012 04:54 PolskaGora wrote: This community has good days and bad days.
Unfortunately, as of late, it seems that the ugly side has been showing for too long. It's unfortunate Spades decided to leave, and I wish him the best of luck in the future!
this is one of those issues that the "ugly" side as you put it should be out, we don't need players that maphack, or have in the past maphacked . hes not the only one i am looking at..
On June 06 2012 04:57 dLG)Bananenbaum wrote: if a politician fucks the people, hes out. if a professional sportsman is getting caught doping, hes out. if you HACK for ONE TIME, guess what. your fuckin out.
Well, with the sportsman example, you needed to be tested for doping. Not have a bunch of nerds throw wild accusations at someone on a internet forum.
It is very, very professional done in the sports world... You mean those cyclists that win the Tour de France? When they find plastics and an insane low amount of a forbidden product in their blood, an amount so small that it is impossible to have been taken in, so small that blood transfusing is the the most probable cause, however, a piece of evidence was hidden by the searchers. The team gets the partial news first, and even before it hits the newspaper they already have an excuse that they ate a rare piece of meat a couple days before. They even had the cook testifying that he bought the meat on a maybe discussable place. The "common" people believed this cyclist, because the forbidden product percentage was so low, and screamed for forgiveness. When the doping searchers reveal the extra piece of information about the plastic found in the blood as well, the media is too stupid to understand the meaning, spreads false rumors and nobody was smart enough to understand what really happened. The entire thing went to court, I think around 8 months later(?), it was a cluster fuck, somebody got punished, and then again not punished too hard, but then punished hard enough so he couldn't participate in the next Tour de France.
I swear, you guys have the world understanding of 14 year olds. By staying on the team, regardless whether he cheated or not, his team loses face. It's literally explained in the OP.
Excellent, but I'd like WW and Spades to comment on this, leave it till a later date if need be but the community needs answers rather than the way they make it out to be martyring spades
Regardless of whether he hacked, there were multiple people who witnessed him stream cheating less than half a year ago. That alone is grounds to be kicked off a team in my opinion.
On June 06 2012 06:37 matiK23 wrote: Why do people who always get caught never man up and admit their wrong doings? It would get so much respect from peers and fans of the game. It's like people who go on murder sprees and then commit suicide because they dont want to deal with the aftermath. All cowards.
I completely agree, if he has any respect for the game, he will admit his wrong doings.
Want to know one reason why some people dont admit things? Because they didnt do them. Spades hasn't been given a fair chance to prove he is innocent and likely wont unless another pro player really goes out of his way to analyse games and find guilt or innocence.
Actually they did analyse the replay and called him out for hacking. That is enough proof when it is coming from another professional player. No team would ever pick him up anyways after all that has been said by the professional players calling him out as a cheater. It's also suspicious that he just leaves without defending himself.
Anyways best of luck to him in whatever future he chooses to be in.
On June 06 2012 06:53 TSBspartacus wrote: Excellent, but I'd like WW and Spades to comment on this, leave it till a later date if need be but the community needs answers rather than the way they make it out to be martyring spades
This will be it.
Community = super bad villains. Spades = Martyr of the year 2012 Western Wolves = forced into this terrible terrible spot, couldn't support their member from the pitch forks.
I swear, you guys have the world understanding of 14 year olds. By staying on the team, regardless whether he cheated or not, his team loses face. It's literally explained in the OP.
It wasnt a rhetorical question, i was legitimately wanting to hear what people thought about that.
On June 06 2012 06:54 jalstar wrote: Regardless of whether he hacked, there were multiple people who witnessed him stream cheating less than half a year ago. That alone is grounds to be kicked off a team in my opinion.
Very true, i dont even know how we let his cheating get to this point, with that and his BW background.
On June 06 2012 06:52 Chakoi wrote: He does what is good and doesn't want to affect other people. I think that is very nice of him, but I hate how people dish out negativity to him.
Whether he did or not "Cheat", he has a chance to change back into a positive player.
Don't you think he had enough chances? He already cheated in BW, I don't even understand why all the BW cheaters got a second chance with SC2 at all.
Hopefully this will help end this issue. Knowing this community though I'm not very helpful. Gl to Spades regardless of whether he's guilty or not in whatever he does.
On June 06 2012 06:44 NeuTrons12 wrote: He is depressed and fat that probably caused to hacking.
User was warned for this post
Can we actually get a ban on this idiot? He will do no good in this community, and is blatantly being an imbecile. Just curious, but if I called sheth depressed and fat would I simply be warned? Especially in a thread regarding his reputation?
I find that certain comments are allowed sometimes and not others. I have to assume it depends on which moderator reviews it but yah.. that kind of comment shouldnt be allowed on TL -_-
On June 06 2012 06:52 Chakoi wrote: He does what is good and doesn't want to affect other people. I think that is very nice of him, but I hate how people dish out negativity to him.
Whether he did or not "Cheat", he has a chance to change back into a positive player.
Don't you think he had enough chances? He already cheated in BW, I don't even understand why all the BW cheaters got a second chance with SC2 at all.
Never understood why any known cheater in online games is given another competetive chance. And no I don't care which big time name from any game imaginable you out "shouldn't he be allowed to play?!", if he cheated before, then my stance would be, no he should not.
There are after all, still people who never cheated.
But I also don't really like or understand why if innocent he would have to leave his team so fast. I wouldn't really look down on WW if they'd keep him until there was absolute proof one way or another if it's even possible. Unless, if caught for cheating and they knew about him doing it...
Casts more doubt to me than clears anything, but then again I'm no sponsor or any other big actor in the SC2 professional field. They probably see it different.
dislike these rash reactions by the managers etc in regards to these things in general. 1 Post trolls shouldn't be able to cause these reactions, as you can basically drop down anyone with it that is no superstar. And as we can see it starts to appear more periodically. If this gets more common this will probably starve out pro scenes bottom. Not that its not a good thing to get rid of cheaters, but it shouldn't be done by analyzing a lil BoX series after someone that created an alt, made you biased. And afterwards the only thing people can say, well he was unlucky having so much luck in the games, so he is a cheater, despite losing a game with nothing on the line then honor. If someone is truly caught (multiple times online luck and offline nothing close to it), then people should ban this person from tournaments.
He pretty much had to leave after the thread. Bit unfortunate he got destroyed like he did in the way he did but nothing much to be done about it now, regardless of guilt or innocence the damage has been done. I never really followed him or WW but regardless of who it is it sucks when stuff like this happens =(
On June 06 2012 06:52 Chakoi wrote: He does what is good and doesn't want to affect other people. I think that is very nice of him, but I hate how people dish out negativity to him.
Whether he did or not "Cheat", he has a chance to change back into a positive player.
Don't you think he had enough chances? He already cheated in BW, I don't even understand why all the BW cheaters got a second chance with SC2 at all.
Ok.. Well I haven't been following spades a total load, Ignore what I said then lul
On June 06 2012 06:59 philly5man wrote: Wouldn't leave if he were innocent. Defo cowards way out.
lol You need to get your understanding beyond the high school level. He WOULD leave even if he was innocent. In fact it salvages his reputation slightly with other teams if he can prove innocence because he put the team before his own self.
On June 06 2012 06:52 Chakoi wrote: He does what is good and doesn't want to affect other people. I think that is very nice of him, but I hate how people dish out negativity to him.
Whether he did or not "Cheat", he has a chance to change back into a positive player.
Don't you think he had enough chances? He already cheated in BW, I don't even understand why all the BW cheaters got a second chance with SC2 at all.
Never understood why any known cheater in online games is given another competetive chance. And no I don't care which big time name from any game imaginable you out "shouldn't he be allowed to play?!", if he cheated before, then my stance would be, no he should not.
There are after all, still people who never cheated.
i disagree with both of you: you can go case-by-case and find those that have really reformed themselves.
TT1 and Haypro to name the best examples.
Even before this i wouldnt say spades was reformed; it was obvious from his stream cheating ~6mo ago hes the same scum. So he didnt deserve a 2nd chance.
On June 06 2012 06:59 philly5man wrote: Wouldn't leave if he were innocent. Defo cowards way out.
lol You need to get your understanding beyond the high school level. He WOULD leave even if he was innocent. In fact it salvages his reputation slightly with other teams if he can prove innocence because he put the team before his own self.
But no other team is going to want him with the situation left as is. Would be huge risk with very, very little chance for reward.
I can't judge him on the accusations, from all accounts it is true. I can judge him by his character...
And so far he's shown nothing but passive-aggressive cowardice. Making it appear like he was the one betrayed or something..
I feel betrayed. WE should feel betrayed.
However, I think it's best if we leave this to go away, and we move on. He's gone, let this act as a deterrence to any potential professional players who hack or anyone that thinks of hacking.
If Spades is actually innocent, his attitude doesn't make much sense. He basically keeps saying "Guilty or not, this severely damages my image and my career". I fail to see how it's so damaging if he's proven innocent in the end. That sort of attitude only serves to contribute toward suspicions that he's guilty.
I wish we had a council of reputable players to look at the replays and come to a conclusion, because right now, its not confirmed. If Morrow, Nony, and say, Artosis took the time to look at it together, I would believe in their consensus.
Every time a guy leaves his team on his own, and the team declares publicly that he did left on his own, people need to understand that there is actually a good chance that the team just fired the guy and they agreed to a decent PR statement beforehand for both to not lose face. It was probably the case for Destiny, and it's even more likely the case here. No, poor Spade didn't decide to bear the "burden" alone, and didn't honorably protect his team's reputation from the aftermaths...His team found out that he was hacking, and fired him with a PR statement kind enough to not destroy him completely. That's what most likely happened, don't be so naive as to think there remains an ounce of honor in Spades. I think we at least know by now that he's not the most honorable guy out there...
On June 06 2012 07:02 HolyArrow wrote: If Spades is actually innocent, his attitude doesn't make much sense. He basically keeps saying "Guilty or not, this severely damages my image and my career". I fail to see how it's so damaging if he's proven innocent in the end. That sort of attitude only serves to contribute toward suspicions that he's guilty.
He already lost his spot on his team.. how is this not damaging if he is innocent? Let alone the fact that plenty of people will never believe him even with proof of innocence.
Keep in mind guys we have definitive evidence of Spades stream cheating within the last few months, so really even if he is proven innocent of hacking, we still know he HAS been stream cheating. But I agree, his reputation will still be severely damaged. There are some people who still want Casey Anthony dead, but she has long since been proven innocent. Regardless this will leave many haters of Spades.
On June 06 2012 06:52 Chakoi wrote: He does what is good and doesn't want to affect other people. I think that is very nice of him, but I hate how people dish out negativity to him.
Whether he did or not "Cheat", he has a chance to change back into a positive player.
Don't you think he had enough chances? He already cheated in BW, I don't even understand why all the BW cheaters got a second chance with SC2 at all.
Never understood why any known cheater in online games is given another competetive chance. And no I don't care which big time name from any game imaginable you out "shouldn't he be allowed to play?!", if he cheated before, then my stance would be, no he should not.
There are after all, still people who never cheated.
i disagree with both of you: you can go case-by-case and find those that have really reformed themselves.
TT1 and Haypro to name the best examples.
Even before this i wouldnt say spades was reformed; it was obvious from his stream cheating ~6mo ago hes the same scum. So he didnt deserve a 2nd chance.
I believe case-by-case is the best way.
I still do not believe Haypro hacked. Did he actually admit it? I haven't seen a single suspicious action made by him. I find his explanation more likely then hacking.
On June 06 2012 07:02 HolyArrow wrote: If Spades is actually innocent, his attitude doesn't make much sense. He basically keeps saying "Guilty or not, this severely damages my image and my career". I fail to see how it's so damaging if he's proven innocent in the end. That sort of attitude only serves to contribute toward suspicions that he's guilty.
He already lost his spot on his team.. how is this not damaging if he is innocent? Let alone the fact that plenty of people will never believe him even with proof of innocence.
If he could counter these good pieces of evidence against him and prove his innocence I'm sure the team would gladly let him back in. But of course for now he has to leave either way, or at least just say he's left. If he was innocent the team could still be paying him and then be ready to let him back in when everything's settled.
On June 06 2012 07:05 TBone- wrote: I wish we had a council of reputable players to look at the replays and come to a conclusion, because right now, its not confirmed. If Morrow, Nony, and say, Artosis took the time to look at it together, I would believe in their consensus.
Catz, Illusion and TT1 did this on stream. Well, I guess you are talking about more reputable than that?
On June 06 2012 07:02 HolyArrow wrote: If Spades is actually innocent, his attitude doesn't make much sense. He basically keeps saying "Guilty or not, this severely damages my image and my career". I fail to see how it's so damaging if he's proven innocent in the end. That sort of attitude only serves to contribute toward suspicions that he's guilty.
He already lost his spot on his team.. how is this not damaging if he is innocent? Let alone the fact that plenty of people will never believe him even with proof of innocence.
Well he's already handled it badly to begin with. And the way I see it, the onus is upon his team/anyone else who took punitive action to set things right if he's proven innocent, so there's nothing permanently damaging.
Let's say he is proven innocent on this hacking issue. It has been proven that he have hacked in BW, and stream cheated in SC2.
Honestly, I cannot understand this guy gets so much support. Obviously he is just a bad player and a bad sport. It's only good that he gets removed from the scene.
Very sad. The evidence was not concrete enough to condemn him as far as I'm concerned.
I just hope that he really was guilty for the sake of everyone posting "serves him right" in this thread. If he's not, it's a hell of a thing to completely ruin someone's career because you made a snap judgement.
On June 06 2012 07:15 MVega wrote: Love all the talk about "Man up" or taking the "coward's way out." - It's a video game, not a murder trial or a fight to the death. Holy shit.
Yeah, why try to keep our COMPETITIVE games hack free? People should just be allowed to hack with no consequences. It's just a game after all... -.-
On June 06 2012 07:12 Maekchu wrote: Spade haters? Is there anything to love?
Let's say he is proven innocent on this hacking issue. It has been proven that he have hacked in BW, and stream cheated in SC2.
Honestly, I cannot understand this guy gets so much support. Obviously he is just a bad player and a bad sport. It's only good that he gets removed from the scene.
Almost everyone posting in this thread that is not posting about how happy they are is posting that they hated the mob rule approach that was taken and how Spades had no shot of proving innocence. He may be innocent but it will take a ton to prove it now.
I'm sure a lot of people are going to hate me for this but this is wrong. All this evidence you guys are claiming that proves Spades is a hacker is utterly ridiculous. So you don't agree with his play, well he definitely knows the game way better than most of you and spent time in Korea making sure he could enhance his knowledge.
I watched all the Lucifron games for 2 hours, and just now spent more time on The Catz analysis as well. I can dismiss what Illusion says because he is simply a Terran player that believes everything Spades does is wrong and bad play, which simply added to his own suspicions. Spades also responded to Illusions' suspicions. This is more like an argument than a trial if anything. You say this and that's all fine, but what about this and that? It never solves anything.
Anyone looking at any of the replays that SPADES POSTED HIMSELF can see that he does things that no hacker would do. How many times has he suicided his armies and made terrible decisions. You think he did that just in case people were starting to catch on? He's always been a Grandmaster, and always will be when he's active. Which doesn't seem to be for long thanks to this.
The only crime he committed was taking games off a player the community deemed a player like Spades should never be capable of doing without hacking.
This case will never be solved because there are few people like me who took the time to review circumstances where he isn't hacking. Games from Spring Arena, IPL Qualifiers, HomeStory Cup Qualifiers should be perfect examples of a reason to hack, where he clearly did not. There are way too many instances of moves a player with map hack should not do. All you tend to see is his win rate and rank 1 GM and therefore because of his "fishy play" have ruined the career of a very underrated player. To say he hacked in bw is non sense compared to the amount of people that hacked in bw. Of course it doesn't help his defense but at this point nothing would. This is sc2 where everyone had a fresh start to show off their talents.
The death threats that he's receiving and the fact that he has to leave his team is still not enough apparently. I hope you understand that Spades was not treated fairly and given the benefit of the doubt. I hope Spades does his best at MLG and WCS or at least has games that shows that he's truly worthy of taking games off the best.
On June 06 2012 06:59 philly5man wrote: Wouldn't leave if he were innocent. Defo cowards way out.
lol You need to get your understanding beyond the high school level. He WOULD leave even if he was innocent. In fact it salvages his reputation slightly with other teams if he can prove innocence because he put the team before his own self.
Congratulations, you were fooled by his coward's way out statement. Just the fact that he hasn't categorically denied cheating is enough to suggest that he was. This whole 'leaving the team to salvage their reputation' is no more than a way of avoiding the actual issue, and hoping people forget about him quickly.
On June 06 2012 07:05 TBone- wrote: I wish we had a council of reputable players to look at the replays and come to a conclusion, because right now, its not confirmed. If Morrow, Nony, and say, Artosis took the time to look at it together, I would believe in their consensus.
Catz, Illusion and TT1 did this on stream. Well, I guess you are talking about more reputable than that?
Morrow, Nony, and Artosis have more experience dealing with this from Broodwar than probably anybody else. And to my knowledge, Catz and crew didn't come to a conclusion, nor did they speak for the community , which I believe who I suggested could do.
On June 06 2012 07:15 MVega wrote: Love all the talk about "Man up" or taking the "coward's way out." - It's a video game, not a murder trial or a fight to the death. Holy shit.
Yeah, why try to keep our COMPETITIVE games hack free? People should just be allowed to hack with no consequences. It's just a game after all... -.-
Yah lets talk about something completely different than he is and make some ridiculous statement and generalization that he never even suggested.
For those saying he didn't handle it well. He is NOT a pro athlete with a publicist and tons of help in how to deal with it. He is you, or me, and not many people in his position would handle this with the skill that everyone on the outside looking in thinks he should.
For those calling him a coward because he is leaving his team... he had no choice.. educate yourself before calling people a coward. People in these situations very often lose a lot even if innocent. Also.. he made lots of posts defending himself.. what part of that is cowardice?
On June 06 2012 07:12 Maekchu wrote: Spade haters? Is there anything to love?
Let's say he is proven innocent on this hacking issue. It has been proven that he have hacked in BW, and stream cheated in SC2.
Honestly, I cannot understand this guy gets so much support. Obviously he is just a bad player and a bad sport. It's only good that he gets removed from the scene.
Almost everyone posting in this thread that is not posting about how happy they are is posting that they hated the mob rule approach that was taken and how Spades had no shot of proving innocence. He may be innocent but it will take a ton to prove it now.
My point still stand that whether or not he is innocent in this specific issue. It has already been proven he have cheated in the past. How many chances should a person get? I simply don't understand people supporting a person like this.
On June 06 2012 07:05 TBone- wrote: I wish we had a council of reputable players to look at the replays and come to a conclusion, because right now, its not confirmed. If Morrow, Nony, and say, Artosis took the time to look at it together, I would believe in their consensus.
Catz, Illusion and TT1 did this on stream. Well, I guess you are talking about more reputable than that?
Morrow, Nony, and Artosis have more experience dealing with this from Broodwar than probably anybody else. And to my knowledge, Catz and crew didn't come to a conclusion, nor did they speak for the community , which I believe who I suggested could do.
Im pretty sure they came to the conclusion that Spades was hacking. Atleast Catz and Illusion, I think TT1 was 75% sure (from his word). And I don't really see what a Broodwar experience would add to the discussion.
On June 06 2012 07:15 MVega wrote: Love all the talk about "Man up" or taking the "coward's way out." - It's a video game, not a murder trial or a fight to the death. Holy shit.
Yeah, why try to keep our COMPETITIVE games hack free? People should just be allowed to hack with no consequences. It's just a game after all... -.-
Yah lets talk about something completely different than he is and make some ridiculous statement and generalization that he never even suggested.
For those saying he didn't handle it well. He is NOT a pro athlete with a publicist and tons of help in how to deal with it. He is you, or me, and not many people in his position would handle this with the skill that everyone on the outside looking in thinks he should.
For those calling him a coward because he is leaving his team... he had no choice.. educate yourself before calling people a coward. People in these situations very often lose a lot even if innocent. Also.. he made lots of posts defending himself.. what part of that is cowardice?
On June 06 2012 07:20 Attero wrote: I'm sure a lot of people are going to hate me for this but this is wrong. All this evidence you guys are claiming that proves Spades is a hacker is utterly ridiculous. So you don't agree with his play, well he definitely knows the game way better than most of you and spent time in Korea making sure he could enhance his knowledge.
I watched all the Lucifron games for 2 hours, and just now spent more time on The Catz analysis as well. I can dismiss what Illusion says because he is simply a Terran player that believes everything Spades does is wrong and bad play, which simply added to his own suspicions. Spades also responded to Illusions' suspicions. This is more like an argument than a trial if anything. You say this and that's all fine, but what about this and that? It never solves anything.
Anyone looking at any of the replays that SPADES POSTED HIMSELF can see that he does things that no hacker would do. How many times has he suicided his armies and made terrible decisions. You think he did that just in case people were starting to catch on? He's always been a Grandmaster, and always will be when he's active. Which doesn't seem to be for long thanks to this.
The only crime he committed was taking games off a player the community deemed a player like Spades should never be capable of doing without hacking.
This case will never be solved because there are few people like me who took the time to review circumstances where he isn't hacking. Games from Spring Arena, IPL Qualifiers, HomeStory Cup Qualifiers should be perfect examples of a reason to hack, where he clearly did not. There are way too many instances of moves a player with map hack should not do. All you tend to see is his win rate and rank 1 GM and therefore because of his "fishy play" have ruined the career of a very underrated player. To say he hacked in bw is non sense compared to the amount of people that hacked in bw. Of course it doesn't help his defense but at this point nothing would. This is sc2 where everyone had a fresh start to show off their talents.
The death threats that he's receiving and the fact that he has to leave his team is still not enough apparently. I hope you understand that Spades was not treated fairly and given the benefit of the doubt. I hope Spades does his best at MLG and WCS or at least has games that shows that he's truly worthy of taking games off the best.
Nice post Attero. Hope that more people see this and think about how this was handled.
On June 06 2012 07:20 Attero wrote: I'm sure a lot of people are going to hate me for this but this is wrong. All this evidence you guys are claiming that proves Spades is a hacker is utterly ridiculous. So you don't agree with his play, well he definitely knows the game way better than most of you and spent time in Korea making sure he could enhance his knowledge.
I watched all the Lucifron games for 2 hours, and just now spent more time on The Catz analysis as well. I can dismiss what Illusion says because he is simply a Terran player that believes everything Spades does is wrong and bad play, which simply added to his own suspicions. Spades also responded to Illusions' suspicions. This is more like an argument than a trial if anything. You say this and that's all fine, but what about this and that? It never solves anything.
Anyone looking at any of the replays that SPADES POSTED HIMSELF can see that he does things that no hacker would do. How many times has he suicided his armies and made terrible decisions. You think he did that just in case people were starting to catch on? He's always been a Grandmaster, and always will be when he's active. Which doesn't seem to be for long thanks to this.
The only crime he committed was taking games off a player the community deemed a player like Spades should never be capable of doing without hacking.
This case will never be solved because there are few people like me who took the time to review circumstances where he isn't hacking. Games from Spring Arena, IPL Qualifiers, HomeStory Cup Qualifiers should be perfect examples of a reason to hack, where he clearly did not. There are way too many instances of moves a player with map hack should not do. All you tend to see is his win rate and rank 1 GM and therefore because of his "fishy play" have ruined the career of a very underrated player. To say he hacked in bw is non sense compared to the amount of people that hacked in bw. Of course it doesn't help his defense but at this point nothing would. This is sc2 where everyone had a fresh start to show off their talents.
The death threats that he's receiving and the fact that he has to leave his team is still not enough apparently. I hope you understand that Spades was not treated fairly and given the benefit of the doubt. I hope Spades does his best at MLG and WCS or at least has games that shows that he's truly worthy of taking games off the best.
I appreciate this post very much. If he was truly innocent, though, why the hell did he leave the team? He has no one to blame but himself, in that case, for people supposing his guilt.
Yes the thread was shitty and yes Catz and crew's analysis was some of most most terrible bullshit I have ever seen (they should be ashamed). All that being said, if he was truly innocent then he needs to just suck it up and fight. Bowing out was the worst thing to do.
On June 06 2012 07:05 TBone- wrote: I wish we had a council of reputable players to look at the replays and come to a conclusion, because right now, its not confirmed. If Morrow, Nony, and say, Artosis took the time to look at it together, I would believe in their consensus.
Catz, Illusion and TT1 did this on stream. Well, I guess you are talking about more reputable than that?
Morrow, Nony, and Artosis have more experience dealing with this from Broodwar than probably anybody else. And to my knowledge, Catz and crew didn't come to a conclusion, nor did they speak for the community , which I believe who I suggested could do.
Im pretty sure they came to the conclusion that Spades was hacking. Atleast Catz and Illusion, I think TT1 was 75% sure (from his word). And I don't really see what a Broodwar experience would add to the discussion.
Because they dealt with it for like 10 years man. They know what to look for.
On June 06 2012 07:20 Attero wrote: I'm sure a lot of people are going to hate me for this but this is wrong. All this evidence you guys are claiming that proves Spades is a hacker is utterly ridiculous. So you don't agree with his play, well he definitely knows the game way better than most of you and spent time in Korea making sure he could enhance his knowledge.
I watched all the Lucifron games for 2 hours, and just now spent more time on The Catz analysis as well. I can dismiss what Illusion says because he is simply a Terran player that believes everything Spades does is wrong and bad play, which simply added to his own suspicions. Spades also responded to Illusions' suspicions. This is more like an argument than a trial if anything. You say this and that's all fine, but what about this and that? It never solves anything.
Anyone looking at any of the replays that SPADES POSTED HIMSELF can see that he does things that no hacker would do. How many times has he suicided his armies and made terrible decisions. You think he did that just in case people were starting to catch on? He's always been a Grandmaster, and always will be when he's active. Which doesn't seem to be for long thanks to this.
The only crime he committed was taking games off a player the community deemed a player like Spades should never be capable of doing without hacking.
This case will never be solved because there are few people like me who took the time to review circumstances where he isn't hacking. Games from Spring Arena, IPL Qualifiers, HomeStory Cup Qualifiers should be perfect examples of a reason to hack, where he clearly did not. There are way too many instances of moves a player with map hack should not do. All you tend to see is his win rate and rank 1 GM and therefore because of his "fishy play" have ruined the career of a very underrated player. To say he hacked in bw is non sense compared to the amount of people that hacked in bw. Of course it doesn't help his defense but at this point nothing would. This is sc2 where everyone had a fresh start to show off their talents.
The death threats that he's receiving and the fact that he has to leave his team is still not enough apparently. I hope you understand that Spades was not treated fairly and given the benefit of the doubt. I hope Spades does his best at MLG and WCS or at least has games that shows that he's truly worthy of taking games off the best.
I appreciate this post very much. If he was truly innocent, though, why the hell did he leave the team? He has no one to blame but himself, in that case, for people supposing his guilt.
Yes the thread was shitty and yes Catz and crew's analysis was some of most most terrible bullshit I have ever seen (they should be ashamed). All that being said, if he was truly innocent then he needs to just suck it up and fight. Bowing out was the worst thing to do.
because this is not highschool level mindset, this damages his rep, doesn't matter if he's innocent, and he was actually noble (assuming he is innocent) in leaving WW to save their reputation.
On June 06 2012 07:20 Attero wrote: I'm sure a lot of people are going to hate me for this but this is wrong. All this evidence you guys are claiming that proves Spades is a hacker is utterly ridiculous. So you don't agree with his play, well he definitely knows the game way better than most of you and spent time in Korea making sure he could enhance his knowledge.
I watched all the Lucifron games for 2 hours, and just now spent more time on The Catz analysis as well. I can dismiss what Illusion says because he is simply a Terran player that believes everything Spades does is wrong and bad play, which simply added to his own suspicions. Spades also responded to Illusions' suspicions. This is more like an argument than a trial if anything. You say this and that's all fine, but what about this and that? It never solves anything.
Anyone looking at any of the replays that SPADES POSTED HIMSELF can see that he does things that no hacker would do. How many times has he suicided his armies and made terrible decisions. You think he did that just in case people were starting to catch on? He's always been a Grandmaster, and always will be when he's active. Which doesn't seem to be for long thanks to this.
The only crime he committed was taking games off a player the community deemed a player like Spades should never be capable of doing without hacking.
This case will never be solved because there are few people like me who took the time to review circumstances where he isn't hacking. Games from Spring Arena, IPL Qualifiers, HomeStory Cup Qualifiers should be perfect examples of a reason to hack, where he clearly did not. There are way too many instances of moves a player with map hack should not do. All you tend to see is his win rate and rank 1 GM and therefore because of his "fishy play" have ruined the career of a very underrated player. To say he hacked in bw is non sense compared to the amount of people that hacked in bw. Of course it doesn't help his defense but at this point nothing would. This is sc2 where everyone had a fresh start to show off their talents.
The death threats that he's receiving and the fact that he has to leave his team is still not enough apparently. I hope you understand that Spades was not treated fairly and given the benefit of the doubt. I hope Spades does his best at MLG and WCS or at least has games that shows that he's truly worthy of taking games off the best.
Do you think he hacks all the time? It's entirely plausible that he only hacks during tournaments and such.
On June 06 2012 07:12 Maekchu wrote: Spade haters? Is there anything to love?
Let's say he is proven innocent on this hacking issue. It has been proven that he have hacked in BW, and stream cheated in SC2.
Honestly, I cannot understand this guy gets so much support. Obviously he is just a bad player and a bad sport. It's only good that he gets removed from the scene.
Almost everyone posting in this thread that is not posting about how happy they are is posting that they hated the mob rule approach that was taken and how Spades had no shot of proving innocence. He may be innocent but it will take a ton to prove it now.
My point still stand that whether or not he is innocent in this specific issue. It has already been proven he have cheated in the past. How many chances should a person get? I simply don't understand people supporting a person like this.
TT1 wanted more games to be analyzed and thought that this sample size was way too small to make a judgement. People should pay more attention to what he says lately. He also said that he would not be surprised if someone kills themselves over the hate/mob type posts that are on websites like this. Sometimes I think that people don't really think through what they are saying online. Most wouldnt say the same things offline. Idra said on real talk? the other day that no one comes up to his face and says he sucks and such. Would love to see this website move even more away from a Reddit atmosphere.
On June 06 2012 07:05 TBone- wrote: I wish we had a council of reputable players to look at the replays and come to a conclusion, because right now, its not confirmed. If Morrow, Nony, and say, Artosis took the time to look at it together, I would believe in their consensus.
Catz, Illusion and TT1 did this on stream. Well, I guess you are talking about more reputable than that?
Morrow, Nony, and Artosis have more experience dealing with this from Broodwar than probably anybody else. And to my knowledge, Catz and crew didn't come to a conclusion, nor did they speak for the community , which I believe who I suggested could do.
Im pretty sure they came to the conclusion that Spades was hacking. Atleast Catz and Illusion, I think TT1 was 75% sure (from his word). And I don't really see what a Broodwar experience would add to the discussion.
Because they dealt with it for like 10 years man. They know what to look for.
TT1 WAS a hacker, I think he knows better what to look for honestly. And I really don't see why you would say that they have dealt with this for 10years? You think others did not?...
Personally even if he didn't cheat in this showmatch. His teammates calling him out and even team owner saying he stream cheats is enough for me. Once a cheater always a cheater, is the way I look at it. I know its harsh but He cant be trusted and his past should blackball him in every event. I don't believe in second chances when it is competitive play for money. This is my opinion playing in the OHL for over 5 + years while I was younger.
On June 06 2012 07:20 Attero wrote: I'm sure a lot of people are going to hate me for this but this is wrong. All this evidence you guys are claiming that proves Spades is a hacker is utterly ridiculous. So you don't agree with his play, well he definitely knows the game way better than most of you and spent time in Korea making sure he could enhance his knowledge.
I watched all the Lucifron games for 2 hours, and just now spent more time on The Catz analysis as well. I can dismiss what Illusion says because he is simply a Terran player that believes everything Spades does is wrong and bad play, which simply added to his own suspicions. Spades also responded to Illusions' suspicions. This is more like an argument than a trial if anything. You say this and that's all fine, but what about this and that? It never solves anything.
Anyone looking at any of the replays that SPADES POSTED HIMSELF can see that he does things that no hacker would do. How many times has he suicided his armies and made terrible decisions. You think he did that just in case people were starting to catch on? He's always been a Grandmaster, and always will be when he's active. Which doesn't seem to be for long thanks to this.
The only crime he committed was taking games off a player the community deemed a player like Spades should never be capable of doing without hacking.
This case will never be solved because there are few people like me who took the time to review circumstances where he isn't hacking. Games from Spring Arena, IPL Qualifiers, HomeStory Cup Qualifiers should be perfect examples of a reason to hack, where he clearly did not. There are way too many instances of moves a player with map hack should not do. All you tend to see is his win rate and rank 1 GM and therefore because of his "fishy play" have ruined the career of a very underrated player. To say he hacked in bw is non sense compared to the amount of people that hacked in bw. Of course it doesn't help his defense but at this point nothing would. This is sc2 where everyone had a fresh start to show off their talents.
The death threats that he's receiving and the fact that he has to leave his team is still not enough apparently. I hope you understand that Spades was not treated fairly and given the benefit of the doubt. I hope Spades does his best at MLG and WCS or at least has games that shows that he's truly worthy of taking games off the best.
I appreciate this post very much. If he was truly innocent, though, why the hell did he leave the team? He has no one to blame but himself, in that case, for people supposing his guilt.
Yes the thread was shitty and yes Catz and crew's analysis was some of most most terrible bullshit I have ever seen (they should be ashamed). All that being said, if he was truly innocent then he needs to just suck it up and fight. Bowing out was the worst thing to do.
He left because he didn't want this bad PR to affect his team (showing he is even more of an upstanding human being). Please read the OP.
Great post attero, ty for saying it (completely agree). And indications of hacking does NOT = hacking, innocent until PROVEN guilty, not indicated.
On June 06 2012 07:20 Attero wrote: I'm sure a lot of people are going to hate me for this but this is wrong. All this evidence you guys are claiming that proves Spades is a hacker is utterly ridiculous. So you don't agree with his play, well he definitely knows the game way better than most of you and spent time in Korea making sure he could enhance his knowledge.
I watched all the Lucifron games for 2 hours, and just now spent more time on The Catz analysis as well. I can dismiss what Illusion says because he is simply a Terran player that believes everything Spades does is wrong and bad play, which simply added to his own suspicions. Spades also responded to Illusions' suspicions. This is more like an argument than a trial if anything. You say this and that's all fine, but what about this and that? It never solves anything.
Anyone looking at any of the replays that SPADES POSTED HIMSELF can see that he does things that no hacker would do. How many times has he suicided his armies and made terrible decisions. You think he did that just in case people were starting to catch on? He's always been a Grandmaster, and always will be when he's active. Which doesn't seem to be for long thanks to this.
The only crime he committed was taking games off a player the community deemed a player like Spades should never be capable of doing without hacking.
This case will never be solved because there are few people like me who took the time to review circumstances where he isn't hacking. Games from Spring Arena, IPL Qualifiers, HomeStory Cup Qualifiers should be perfect examples of a reason to hack, where he clearly did not. There are way too many instances of moves a player with map hack should not do. All you tend to see is his win rate and rank 1 GM and therefore because of his "fishy play" have ruined the career of a very underrated player. To say he hacked in bw is non sense compared to the amount of people that hacked in bw. Of course it doesn't help his defense but at this point nothing would. This is sc2 where everyone had a fresh start to show off their talents.
The death threats that he's receiving and the fact that he has to leave his team is still not enough apparently. I hope you understand that Spades was not treated fairly and given the benefit of the doubt. I hope Spades does his best at MLG and WCS or at least has games that shows that he's truly worthy of taking games off the best.
With all due respect, the point CatZ and company were trying to make with the replays that Spades uploaded himself was that Spades wasn't cheating in those (for reasons you mention). Then, when you compare the replays were he allegedly cheats, they saw a huge difference in mechanics (fog of war, etc.) which indicates something suspicious.
On June 06 2012 05:58 anatem wrote: unknown poster accuses a semipro player of cheating in a showmatch with no proof, and people buy it because he's not the best player and hacked when he was a stupid teenager in another game. and he's not popular, so flocks of supporters wouldn't come to his aid and call him a retard, a hater with no proof etc.
immediately after public attention gets stirred, tons of "pro" players chime in as if any of their opinions are demonstrable, or they're authorities on the matter for playing at a top 1000 or so level and having placed second or first in some online cups, or maybe top whatever in a lan with maybe a few wins on lan worth mentioning on liquipedia, possibly having a stream following too. then even TT1 of all people dares show his face and some of his fans or people who know him 'cause he's oldschool suck up to him while shitting on Spades, which is ironic to say the least.
then Catz makes a douche comment about how he liked the guy but it was clear he cheated but he didn't care to go into it after skimming through the replays, while pretending objectivity - and all his sheep follow suite. they even start a new meme about it on reddit to add to the ridiculousness -in the sense of insanity- of the situation.
meanwhile there is still nothing more than circumstancial evidence, that could be found in tons of players' replays if you look long enough and if there's a significant bias against the person, the syntagm "witch hunt" comes to mind, and i think most of the people in the original thread don't actually understand how that works, or they'd pay some fucking attention to what they're posting.
then the guy does the most sensible and honorable thing to do, which is retire, to save his team the embarrassement, and save the community further hurt by extending the discussion after it was clear it was a lose-lose worse situation, and guess what, it's taken as further evidence of guilt, hmm, you 16-year old fuckers are going full-on standard Inquisition M.O. and don't even realize it.
doesn't even matter if he hacked (then fuck him for lying) or he didn't (then it's tragic) - which you'll never know, since even the most odd of things that people saw in those replays can be explained by the randomness of split-second decisions of a less than pro player (*), the way this thing ran its course is disgusting to say the least, it should really scare people that to this day the angry mob mentality that gave birth to things like the Inquisition can run so freely among such a young demographic, while being made so much worst by the impersonality of internet communication, and how it always shamelessly hunts the weakest targets.
(*)and yes, this is the whole gist of it, Spades, like Catz and the other people involved in this debacle are semipros at best, so their plays from home -not even in a tournament- and understanding of the game aren't ever going to be at even close to the theoretical highest level of play that would provide a good framework to judge "suspicious activities". so when a mediocre player with mediocre understanding judges another mediocre player with mediocre, and often brainfarty, plays, using the standard of perfection as he understands it, while being biased, and getting sought or unsought publicity out of it, guess what's gonna happen. there's a reason the whole "innocent until proven guilty" principle came to exist
This summed up exactly what I wanted to say. Especially the point that no one here has shown any semi-decent passing understanding of what a witch hunt is!.
Gl to you Spades, i wish you all the best in everything you do, and I believe in innocent until proven guilty.
On June 06 2012 07:20 Attero wrote: I'm sure a lot of people are going to hate me for this but this is wrong. All this evidence you guys are claiming that proves Spades is a hacker is utterly ridiculous. So you don't agree with his play, well he definitely knows the game way better than most of you and spent time in Korea making sure he could enhance his knowledge.
I watched all the Lucifron games for 2 hours, and just now spent more time on The Catz analysis as well. I can dismiss what Illusion says because he is simply a Terran player that believes everything Spades does is wrong and bad play, which simply added to his own suspicions. Spades also responded to Illusions' suspicions. This is more like an argument than a trial if anything. You say this and that's all fine, but what about this and that? It never solves anything.
Anyone looking at any of the replays that SPADES POSTED HIMSELF can see that he does things that no hacker would do. How many times has he suicided his armies and made terrible decisions. You think he did that just in case people were starting to catch on? He's always been a Grandmaster, and always will be when he's active. Which doesn't seem to be for long thanks to this.
The only crime he committed was taking games off a player the community deemed a player like Spades should never be capable of doing without hacking.
This case will never be solved because there are few people like me who took the time to review circumstances where he isn't hacking. Games from Spring Arena, IPL Qualifiers, HomeStory Cup Qualifiers should be perfect examples of a reason to hack, where he clearly did not. There are way too many instances of moves a player with map hack should not do. All you tend to see is his win rate and rank 1 GM and therefore because of his "fishy play" have ruined the career of a very underrated player. To say he hacked in bw is non sense compared to the amount of people that hacked in bw. Of course it doesn't help his defense but at this point nothing would. This is sc2 where everyone had a fresh start to show off their talents.
The death threats that he's receiving and the fact that he has to leave his team is still not enough apparently. I hope you understand that Spades was not treated fairly and given the benefit of the doubt. I hope Spades does his best at MLG and WCS or at least has games that shows that he's truly worthy of taking games off the best.
I appreciate this post very much. If he was truly innocent, though, why the hell did he leave the team? He has no one to blame but himself, in that case, for people supposing his guilt.
Yes the thread was shitty and yes Catz and crew's analysis was some of most most terrible bullshit I have ever seen (they should be ashamed). All that being said, if he was truly innocent then he needs to just suck it up and fight. Bowing out was the worst thing to do.
He left because he didn't want this bad PR to affect his team (showing he is even more of an upstanding human being). Please read the OP.
If he's that great of a human being, what about his BW maphacking, or, closer, the confirmations that he regularly stream cheated over the past months?
On June 06 2012 07:20 Attero wrote: I'm sure a lot of people are going to hate me for this but this is wrong. All this evidence you guys are claiming that proves Spades is a hacker is utterly ridiculous. So you don't agree with his play, well he definitely knows the game way better than most of you and spent time in Korea making sure he could enhance his knowledge.
I watched all the Lucifron games for 2 hours, and just now spent more time on The Catz analysis as well. I can dismiss what Illusion says because he is simply a Terran player that believes everything Spades does is wrong and bad play, which simply added to his own suspicions. Spades also responded to Illusions' suspicions. This is more like an argument than a trial if anything. You say this and that's all fine, but what about this and that? It never solves anything.
Anyone looking at any of the replays that SPADES POSTED HIMSELF can see that he does things that no hacker would do. How many times has he suicided his armies and made terrible decisions. You think he did that just in case people were starting to catch on? He's always been a Grandmaster, and always will be when he's active. Which doesn't seem to be for long thanks to this.
The only crime he committed was taking games off a player the community deemed a player like Spades should never be capable of doing without hacking.
This case will never be solved because there are few people like me who took the time to review circumstances where he isn't hacking. Games from Spring Arena, IPL Qualifiers, HomeStory Cup Qualifiers should be perfect examples of a reason to hack, where he clearly did not. There are way too many instances of moves a player with map hack should not do. All you tend to see is his win rate and rank 1 GM and therefore because of his "fishy play" have ruined the career of a very underrated player. To say he hacked in bw is non sense compared to the amount of people that hacked in bw. Of course it doesn't help his defense but at this point nothing would. This is sc2 where everyone had a fresh start to show off their talents.
The death threats that he's receiving and the fact that he has to leave his team is still not enough apparently. I hope you understand that Spades was not treated fairly and given the benefit of the doubt. I hope Spades does his best at MLG and WCS or at least has games that shows that he's truly worthy of taking games off the best.
I appreciate this post very much. If he was truly innocent, though, why the hell did he leave the team? He has no one to blame but himself, in that case, for people supposing his guilt.
Yes the thread was shitty and yes Catz and crew's analysis was some of most most terrible bullshit I have ever seen (they should be ashamed). All that being said, if he was truly innocent then he needs to just suck it up and fight. Bowing out was the worst thing to do.
He left because he didn't want this bad PR to affect his team (showing he is even more of an upstanding human being). Please read the OP.
If he's that great of a human being, what about his BW maphacking, or, closer, the confirmations that he regularly stream cheated over the past months?
this is a pretty legit question, I've read the summaries only on this so I'm sorry if I leave something out
other than people saying that he stream cheated (one of those people even included leenock did it and disappeared right after it), how is that confirmation?
On June 06 2012 07:20 Attero wrote: I'm sure a lot of people are going to hate me for this but this is wrong. All this evidence you guys are claiming that proves Spades is a hacker is utterly ridiculous. So you don't agree with his play, well he definitely knows the game way better than most of you and spent time in Korea making sure he could enhance his knowledge.
I watched all the Lucifron games for 2 hours, and just now spent more time on The Catz analysis as well. I can dismiss what Illusion says because he is simply a Terran player that believes everything Spades does is wrong and bad play, which simply added to his own suspicions. Spades also responded to Illusions' suspicions. This is more like an argument than a trial if anything. You say this and that's all fine, but what about this and that? It never solves anything.
Anyone looking at any of the replays that SPADES POSTED HIMSELF can see that he does things that no hacker would do. How many times has he suicided his armies and made terrible decisions. You think he did that just in case people were starting to catch on? He's always been a Grandmaster, and always will be when he's active. Which doesn't seem to be for long thanks to this.
The only crime he committed was taking games off a player the community deemed a player like Spades should never be capable of doing without hacking.
This case will never be solved because there are few people like me who took the time to review circumstances where he isn't hacking. Games from Spring Arena, IPL Qualifiers, HomeStory Cup Qualifiers should be perfect examples of a reason to hack, where he clearly did not. There are way too many instances of moves a player with map hack should not do. All you tend to see is his win rate and rank 1 GM and therefore because of his "fishy play" have ruined the career of a very underrated player. To say he hacked in bw is non sense compared to the amount of people that hacked in bw. Of course it doesn't help his defense but at this point nothing would. This is sc2 where everyone had a fresh start to show off their talents.
The death threats that he's receiving and the fact that he has to leave his team is still not enough apparently. I hope you understand that Spades was not treated fairly and given the benefit of the doubt. I hope Spades does his best at MLG and WCS or at least has games that shows that he's truly worthy of taking games off the best.
I appreciate this post very much. If he was truly innocent, though, why the hell did he leave the team? He has no one to blame but himself, in that case, for people supposing his guilt.
Yes the thread was shitty and yes Catz and crew's analysis was some of most most terrible bullshit I have ever seen (they should be ashamed). All that being said, if he was truly innocent then he needs to just suck it up and fight. Bowing out was the worst thing to do.
because this is not highschool level mindset, this damages his rep, doesn't matter if he's innocent, and he was actually noble (assuming he is innocent) in leaving WW to save their reputation.
Wrong.
If he was actually noble he would stand up for his reputation and not let people throw out false accusations and get away with it.
If he is in fact innocent, then the person making the accusations is just as dirty as a hcking pro gamer. Spades wouldn't stand for it and rid our community of Scum who try to ruin someone without hard proof of foul play.
On June 06 2012 07:12 Maekchu wrote: Spade haters? Is there anything to love?
Let's say he is proven innocent on this hacking issue. It has been proven that he have hacked in BW, and stream cheated in SC2.
Honestly, I cannot understand this guy gets so much support. Obviously he is just a bad player and a bad sport. It's only good that he gets removed from the scene.
Almost everyone posting in this thread that is not posting about how happy they are is posting that they hated the mob rule approach that was taken and how Spades had no shot of proving innocence. He may be innocent but it will take a ton to prove it now.
My point still stand that whether or not he is innocent in this specific issue. It has already been proven he have cheated in the past. How many chances should a person get? I simply don't understand people supporting a person like this.
TT1 wanted more games to be analyzed and thought that this sample size was way too small to make a judgement. People should pay more attention to what he says lately. He also said that he would not be surprised if someone kills themselves over the hate/mob type posts that are on websites like this. Sometimes I think that people don't really think through what they are saying online. Most wouldnt say the same things offline. Idra said on real talk? the other day that no one comes up to his face and says he sucks and such. Would love to see this website move even more away from a Reddit atmosphere.
Sure, there should be made in-depth investigations in this matter.
But that still doesn't change the fact that is has been proven that he cheated in BW and stream cheated in SC2. And I still don't understand that a progamer that have such a record gets so much support. Is it because there are not enough "good" foreigners in the scene, so we start to support the cheaters as well? Apparently it seems so, with the amount of people defending a player like this.
On June 06 2012 07:20 Attero wrote: I'm sure a lot of people are going to hate me for this but this is wrong. All this evidence you guys are claiming that proves Spades is a hacker is utterly ridiculous. So you don't agree with his play, well he definitely knows the game way better than most of you and spent time in Korea making sure he could enhance his knowledge.
I watched all the Lucifron games for 2 hours, and just now spent more time on The Catz analysis as well. I can dismiss what Illusion says because he is simply a Terran player that believes everything Spades does is wrong and bad play, which simply added to his own suspicions. Spades also responded to Illusions' suspicions. This is more like an argument than a trial if anything. You say this and that's all fine, but what about this and that? It never solves anything.
Anyone looking at any of the replays that SPADES POSTED HIMSELF can see that he does things that no hacker would do. How many times has he suicided his armies and made terrible decisions. You think he did that just in case people were starting to catch on? He's always been a Grandmaster, and always will be when he's active. Which doesn't seem to be for long thanks to this.
The only crime he committed was taking games off a player the community deemed a player like Spades should never be capable of doing without hacking.
This case will never be solved because there are few people like me who took the time to review circumstances where he isn't hacking. Games from Spring Arena, IPL Qualifiers, HomeStory Cup Qualifiers should be perfect examples of a reason to hack, where he clearly did not. There are way too many instances of moves a player with map hack should not do. All you tend to see is his win rate and rank 1 GM and therefore because of his "fishy play" have ruined the career of a very underrated player. To say he hacked in bw is non sense compared to the amount of people that hacked in bw. Of course it doesn't help his defense but at this point nothing would. This is sc2 where everyone had a fresh start to show off their talents.
The death threats that he's receiving and the fact that he has to leave his team is still not enough apparently. I hope you understand that Spades was not treated fairly and given the benefit of the doubt. I hope Spades does his best at MLG and WCS or at least has games that shows that he's truly worthy of taking games off the best.
I appreciate this post very much. If he was truly innocent, though, why the hell did he leave the team? He has no one to blame but himself, in that case, for people supposing his guilt.
Yes the thread was shitty and yes Catz and crew's analysis was some of most most terrible bullshit I have ever seen (they should be ashamed). All that being said, if he was truly innocent then he needs to just suck it up and fight. Bowing out was the worst thing to do.
He left because he didn't want this bad PR to affect his team (showing he is even more of an upstanding human being). Please read the OP.
If he's that great of a human being, what about his BW maphacking, or, closer, the confirmations that he regularly stream cheated over the past months?
If BW maphacking is a condemnation, then HayprO and TT1 should be banned for life.
There's a post in the Spades hacking thread about how it's very, very common for Korean pros to stream cheat/ghost in showmatches or on ladder out of pride. It and maphacking are completely different beasts.
On June 06 2012 07:20 Attero wrote: I'm sure a lot of people are going to hate me for this but this is wrong. All this evidence you guys are claiming that proves Spades is a hacker is utterly ridiculous. So you don't agree with his play, well he definitely knows the game way better than most of you and spent time in Korea making sure he could enhance his knowledge.
I watched all the Lucifron games for 2 hours, and just now spent more time on The Catz analysis as well. I can dismiss what Illusion says because he is simply a Terran player that believes everything Spades does is wrong and bad play, which simply added to his own suspicions. Spades also responded to Illusions' suspicions. This is more like an argument than a trial if anything. You say this and that's all fine, but what about this and that? It never solves anything.
Anyone looking at any of the replays that SPADES POSTED HIMSELF can see that he does things that no hacker would do. How many times has he suicided his armies and made terrible decisions. You think he did that just in case people were starting to catch on? He's always been a Grandmaster, and always will be when he's active. Which doesn't seem to be for long thanks to this.
The only crime he committed was taking games off a player the community deemed a player like Spades should never be capable of doing without hacking.
This case will never be solved because there are few people like me who took the time to review circumstances where he isn't hacking. Games from Spring Arena, IPL Qualifiers, HomeStory Cup Qualifiers should be perfect examples of a reason to hack, where he clearly did not. There are way too many instances of moves a player with map hack should not do. All you tend to see is his win rate and rank 1 GM and therefore because of his "fishy play" have ruined the career of a very underrated player. To say he hacked in bw is non sense compared to the amount of people that hacked in bw. Of course it doesn't help his defense but at this point nothing would. This is sc2 where everyone had a fresh start to show off their talents.
The death threats that he's receiving and the fact that he has to leave his team is still not enough apparently. I hope you understand that Spades was not treated fairly and given the benefit of the doubt. I hope Spades does his best at MLG and WCS or at least has games that shows that he's truly worthy of taking games off the best.
I appreciate this post very much. If he was truly innocent, though, why the hell did he leave the team? He has no one to blame but himself, in that case, for people supposing his guilt.
Yes the thread was shitty and yes Catz and crew's analysis was some of most most terrible bullshit I have ever seen (they should be ashamed). All that being said, if he was truly innocent then he needs to just suck it up and fight. Bowing out was the worst thing to do.
He left because he didn't want this bad PR to affect his team (showing he is even more of an upstanding human being). Please read the OP.
If he's that great of a human being, what about his BW maphacking, or, closer, the confirmations that he regularly stream cheated over the past months?
No one is perfect and I do not know of any confirmations that he regularly stream cheated over the past months. Also, the community obviously had forgiven him for his BW hacking (otherwise it would have came up sooner), so now we're going back on it (we as in the community)?
On June 06 2012 07:20 Attero wrote: I'm sure a lot of people are going to hate me for this but this is wrong. All this evidence you guys are claiming that proves Spades is a hacker is utterly ridiculous. So you don't agree with his play, well he definitely knows the game way better than most of you and spent time in Korea making sure he could enhance his knowledge.
I watched all the Lucifron games for 2 hours, and just now spent more time on The Catz analysis as well. I can dismiss what Illusion says because he is simply a Terran player that believes everything Spades does is wrong and bad play, which simply added to his own suspicions. Spades also responded to Illusions' suspicions. This is more like an argument than a trial if anything. You say this and that's all fine, but what about this and that? It never solves anything.
Anyone looking at any of the replays that SPADES POSTED HIMSELF can see that he does things that no hacker would do. How many times has he suicided his armies and made terrible decisions. You think he did that just in case people were starting to catch on? He's always been a Grandmaster, and always will be when he's active. Which doesn't seem to be for long thanks to this.
The only crime he committed was taking games off a player the community deemed a player like Spades should never be capable of doing without hacking.
This case will never be solved because there are few people like me who took the time to review circumstances where he isn't hacking. Games from Spring Arena, IPL Qualifiers, HomeStory Cup Qualifiers should be perfect examples of a reason to hack, where he clearly did not. There are way too many instances of moves a player with map hack should not do. All you tend to see is his win rate and rank 1 GM and therefore because of his "fishy play" have ruined the career of a very underrated player. To say he hacked in bw is non sense compared to the amount of people that hacked in bw. Of course it doesn't help his defense but at this point nothing would. This is sc2 where everyone had a fresh start to show off their talents.
The death threats that he's receiving and the fact that he has to leave his team is still not enough apparently. I hope you understand that Spades was not treated fairly and given the benefit of the doubt. I hope Spades does his best at MLG and WCS or at least has games that shows that he's truly worthy of taking games off the best.
Do you think he hacks all the time? It's entirely plausible that he only hacks during tournaments and such.
There is only one way spades can redeem himself and prove he is innocent without a shadow of a doubt. That is to kick some major ass at Major lan events, not saying he have to win it, but getting into championship brackets for example would in my eyes clear him of any of this once and for all.
On June 06 2012 07:20 Attero wrote: I'm sure a lot of people are going to hate me for this but this is wrong. All this evidence you guys are claiming that proves Spades is a hacker is utterly ridiculous. So you don't agree with his play, well he definitely knows the game way better than most of you and spent time in Korea making sure he could enhance his knowledge.
I watched all the Lucifron games for 2 hours, and just now spent more time on The Catz analysis as well. I can dismiss what Illusion says because he is simply a Terran player that believes everything Spades does is wrong and bad play, which simply added to his own suspicions. Spades also responded to Illusions' suspicions. This is more like an argument than a trial if anything. You say this and that's all fine, but what about this and that? It never solves anything.
Anyone looking at any of the replays that SPADES POSTED HIMSELF can see that he does things that no hacker would do. How many times has he suicided his armies and made terrible decisions. You think he did that just in case people were starting to catch on? He's always been a Grandmaster, and always will be when he's active. Which doesn't seem to be for long thanks to this.
The only crime he committed was taking games off a player the community deemed a player like Spades should never be capable of doing without hacking.
This case will never be solved because there are few people like me who took the time to review circumstances where he isn't hacking. Games from Spring Arena, IPL Qualifiers, HomeStory Cup Qualifiers should be perfect examples of a reason to hack, where he clearly did not. There are way too many instances of moves a player with map hack should not do. All you tend to see is his win rate and rank 1 GM and therefore because of his "fishy play" have ruined the career of a very underrated player. To say he hacked in bw is non sense compared to the amount of people that hacked in bw. Of course it doesn't help his defense but at this point nothing would. This is sc2 where everyone had a fresh start to show off their talents.
The death threats that he's receiving and the fact that he has to leave his team is still not enough apparently. I hope you understand that Spades was not treated fairly and given the benefit of the doubt. I hope Spades does his best at MLG and WCS or at least has games that shows that he's truly worthy of taking games off the best.
Can you logically explain his seemingly inability to look at fog of war or issue commands into fog of war in the Nerchio games without all these appeals to emotion and misdirection? For instance comparing the replays to the ones he posted himself there is a profound difference in how he plays, with no real justification.
Why can't you or someone on Team Spades actually address the real issues at hand in those games. You even mention the analysis by Catz and rather than address it you just go on to say how Illusion is biased.
I know, death threats, left team, living in a tent now, etc etc. but how do you gloss over the most important issue like this
I really think Western Wolves (and Martijn to a certain extent) hasn't reacted well at all to this whole fiasco.
On the one hand, they're EXTREMELY defensive of Spades. On the other, within 1 day they have already let Spades go without even trying to convince him to wait it out for a couple of weeks and claiming "his reputation has been hurt beyond repair". A simple announcement that they're investigating the claims without showing any animosity towards the guy who first posted the replays would have sufficed.
On June 06 2012 07:20 Attero wrote: I'm sure a lot of people are going to hate me for this but this is wrong. All this evidence you guys are claiming that proves Spades is a hacker is utterly ridiculous. So you don't agree with his play, well he definitely knows the game way better than most of you and spent time in Korea making sure he could enhance his knowledge.
I watched all the Lucifron games for 2 hours, and just now spent more time on The Catz analysis as well. I can dismiss what Illusion says because he is simply a Terran player that believes everything Spades does is wrong and bad play, which simply added to his own suspicions. Spades also responded to Illusions' suspicions. This is more like an argument than a trial if anything. You say this and that's all fine, but what about this and that? It never solves anything.
Anyone looking at any of the replays that SPADES POSTED HIMSELF can see that he does things that no hacker would do. How many times has he suicided his armies and made terrible decisions. You think he did that just in case people were starting to catch on? He's always been a Grandmaster, and always will be when he's active. Which doesn't seem to be for long thanks to this.
The only crime he committed was taking games off a player the community deemed a player like Spades should never be capable of doing without hacking.
This case will never be solved because there are few people like me who took the time to review circumstances where he isn't hacking. Games from Spring Arena, IPL Qualifiers, HomeStory Cup Qualifiers should be perfect examples of a reason to hack, where he clearly did not. There are way too many instances of moves a player with map hack should not do. All you tend to see is his win rate and rank 1 GM and therefore because of his "fishy play" have ruined the career of a very underrated player. To say he hacked in bw is non sense compared to the amount of people that hacked in bw. Of course it doesn't help his defense but at this point nothing would. This is sc2 where everyone had a fresh start to show off their talents.
The death threats that he's receiving and the fact that he has to leave his team is still not enough apparently. I hope you understand that Spades was not treated fairly and given the benefit of the doubt. I hope Spades does his best at MLG and WCS or at least has games that shows that he's truly worthy of taking games off the best.
I appreciate this post very much. If he was truly innocent, though, why the hell did he leave the team? He has no one to blame but himself, in that case, for people supposing his guilt.
Yes the thread was shitty and yes Catz and crew's analysis was some of most most terrible bullshit I have ever seen (they should be ashamed). All that being said, if he was truly innocent then he needs to just suck it up and fight. Bowing out was the worst thing to do.
because this is not highschool level mindset, this damages his rep, doesn't matter if he's innocent, and he was actually noble (assuming he is innocent) in leaving WW to save their reputation.
Wrong.
If he was actually noble he would stand up for his reputation and not let people throw out false accusations and get away with it.
If he is in fact innocent, then the person making the accusations is just as dirty as a hcking pro gamer. Spades wouldn't stand for it and rid our community of Scum who try to ruin someone without hard proof of foul play.
but he did stand up? he posted on the thread, he responded to Illusion's comments? he kept doing it?
do you think WW wouldn't have been damaged if he wouldn't leave? after all this?
On June 06 2012 07:20 Attero wrote: I'm sure a lot of people are going to hate me for this but this is wrong. All this evidence you guys are claiming that proves Spades is a hacker is utterly ridiculous. So you don't agree with his play, well he definitely knows the game way better than most of you and spent time in Korea making sure he could enhance his knowledge.
I watched all the Lucifron games for 2 hours, and just now spent more time on The Catz analysis as well. I can dismiss what Illusion says because he is simply a Terran player that believes everything Spades does is wrong and bad play, which simply added to his own suspicions. Spades also responded to Illusions' suspicions. This is more like an argument than a trial if anything. You say this and that's all fine, but what about this and that? It never solves anything.
Anyone looking at any of the replays that SPADES POSTED HIMSELF can see that he does things that no hacker would do. How many times has he suicided his armies and made terrible decisions. You think he did that just in case people were starting to catch on? He's always been a Grandmaster, and always will be when he's active. Which doesn't seem to be for long thanks to this.
The only crime he committed was taking games off a player the community deemed a player like Spades should never be capable of doing without hacking.
This case will never be solved because there are few people like me who took the time to review circumstances where he isn't hacking. Games from Spring Arena, IPL Qualifiers, HomeStory Cup Qualifiers should be perfect examples of a reason to hack, where he clearly did not. There are way too many instances of moves a player with map hack should not do. All you tend to see is his win rate and rank 1 GM and therefore because of his "fishy play" have ruined the career of a very underrated player. To say he hacked in bw is non sense compared to the amount of people that hacked in bw. Of course it doesn't help his defense but at this point nothing would. This is sc2 where everyone had a fresh start to show off their talents.
The death threats that he's receiving and the fact that he has to leave his team is still not enough apparently. I hope you understand that Spades was not treated fairly and given the benefit of the doubt. I hope Spades does his best at MLG and WCS or at least has games that shows that he's truly worthy of taking games off the best.
I appreciate this post very much. If he was truly innocent, though, why the hell did he leave the team? He has no one to blame but himself, in that case, for people supposing his guilt.
Yes the thread was shitty and yes Catz and crew's analysis was some of most most terrible bullshit I have ever seen (they should be ashamed). All that being said, if he was truly innocent then he needs to just suck it up and fight. Bowing out was the worst thing to do.
He left because he didn't want this bad PR to affect his team (showing he is even more of an upstanding human being). Please read the OP.
If he's that great of a human being, what about his BW maphacking, or, closer, the confirmations that he regularly stream cheated over the past months?
If BW maphacking is a condemnation, then HayprO and TT1 should be banned for life.
There's a post in the Spades hacking thread about how it's very, very common for Korean pros to stream cheat/ghost in showmatches or on ladder out of pride. It and maphacking are completely different beasts.
Let's not forget all the people that cheated in the TSL1 and TSL2 ladders...
I do not understand why this is so hasty leaving his team that quick really shows how scared he is of being proven guilty. If he was kicked off the team due to that post on the other hand really sucks for him, but yeah if he left on his own he really just filled his own grave.
On June 06 2012 07:20 Attero wrote: I'm sure a lot of people are going to hate me for this but this is wrong. All this evidence you guys are claiming that proves Spades is a hacker is utterly ridiculous. So you don't agree with his play, well he definitely knows the game way better than most of you and spent time in Korea making sure he could enhance his knowledge.
I watched all the Lucifron games for 2 hours, and just now spent more time on The Catz analysis as well. I can dismiss what Illusion says because he is simply a Terran player that believes everything Spades does is wrong and bad play, which simply added to his own suspicions. Spades also responded to Illusions' suspicions. This is more like an argument than a trial if anything. You say this and that's all fine, but what about this and that? It never solves anything.
Anyone looking at any of the replays that SPADES POSTED HIMSELF can see that he does things that no hacker would do. How many times has he suicided his armies and made terrible decisions. You think he did that just in case people were starting to catch on? He's always been a Grandmaster, and always will be when he's active. Which doesn't seem to be for long thanks to this.
The only crime he committed was taking games off a player the community deemed a player like Spades should never be capable of doing without hacking.
This case will never be solved because there are few people like me who took the time to review circumstances where he isn't hacking. Games from Spring Arena, IPL Qualifiers, HomeStory Cup Qualifiers should be perfect examples of a reason to hack, where he clearly did not. There are way too many instances of moves a player with map hack should not do. All you tend to see is his win rate and rank 1 GM and therefore because of his "fishy play" have ruined the career of a very underrated player. To say he hacked in bw is non sense compared to the amount of people that hacked in bw. Of course it doesn't help his defense but at this point nothing would. This is sc2 where everyone had a fresh start to show off their talents.
The death threats that he's receiving and the fact that he has to leave his team is still not enough apparently. I hope you understand that Spades was not treated fairly and given the benefit of the doubt. I hope Spades does his best at MLG and WCS or at least has games that shows that he's truly worthy of taking games off the best.
It still amazes me people type MASSIVE amounts of text and barley understand the situation. To sum it up for you, all the replays he posted he is playing legit and no one was trying to say other wise. The train of thought is he maphacked for this in particular show match, and there is heavy heavy evidence to support that. To me the most compelling is the following:
In his show match games[7 of them] he regularly: 1. Sends his scv to scout and goes in the base then out of the base with out ever looking at the scv[or scouting the second gas] or buildings. [Who would EVER send a scv in and out of a base and not look at any buildings...] 2. Never once, EVER no matter what looks into the fog of war and has frequent 5-10 second screen pauces. 3. Does very odd scans where the only way you can do them is the mini-map. This is all with out including the very very odd moves.. such as stimming and running back all his marines 1 inch away from siege with out ever seeing the tanks. There is dozens of very odd stuff like this in a small Bo7 when he very rarely does that kinda stuff in a 100 game sample.
Compare this to his normal ladder games where: 1. He ALWAYS checks his SCV and scouts both gas.. 2. He ALWAYS looks into the fog of war like 10+ times a game.. 3. Scans 100% different [looking into fog of war] every single game...
I find it rather odd you made that huge post[lots of effort] with out even realizing no one thought he hacked in the replays he posted him self.
On June 06 2012 07:05 TBone- wrote: I wish we had a council of reputable players to look at the replays and come to a conclusion, because right now, its not confirmed. If Morrow, Nony, and say, Artosis took the time to look at it together, I would believe in their consensus.
Catz, Illusion and TT1 did this on stream. Well, I guess you are talking about more reputable than that?
Morrow, Nony, and Artosis have more experience dealing with this from Broodwar than probably anybody else. And to my knowledge, Catz and crew didn't come to a conclusion, nor did they speak for the community , which I believe who I suggested could do.
Im pretty sure they came to the conclusion that Spades was hacking. Atleast Catz and Illusion, I think TT1 was 75% sure (from his word). And I don't really see what a Broodwar experience would add to the discussion.
Because they dealt with it for like 10 years man. They know what to look for.
TT1 WAS a hacker, I think he knows better what to look for honestly. And I really don't see why you would say that they have dealt with this for 10years? You think others did not?...
These are trusted members of the community that I suggested, and who are very well respected.
Why is everyone giving him sympathy in this thread? A day ago, "He needs to be punished! Remove him from his team, ban him from all tournaments!" Now some sort of punishment has actually occurred, "I hate this community, another successful witch hunt...", etc.
He deserves to not be on a team. He blatantly maphacked, he was caught doing it.
On June 06 2012 07:20 Attero wrote: I'm sure a lot of people are going to hate me for this but this is wrong. All this evidence you guys are claiming that proves Spades is a hacker is utterly ridiculous. So you don't agree with his play, well he definitely knows the game way better than most of you and spent time in Korea making sure he could enhance his knowledge.
I watched all the Lucifron games for 2 hours, and just now spent more time on The Catz analysis as well. I can dismiss what Illusion says because he is simply a Terran player that believes everything Spades does is wrong and bad play, which simply added to his own suspicions. Spades also responded to Illusions' suspicions. This is more like an argument than a trial if anything. You say this and that's all fine, but what about this and that? It never solves anything.
Anyone looking at any of the replays that SPADES POSTED HIMSELF can see that he does things that no hacker would do. How many times has he suicided his armies and made terrible decisions. You think he did that just in case people were starting to catch on? He's always been a Grandmaster, and always will be when he's active. Which doesn't seem to be for long thanks to this.
The only crime he committed was taking games off a player the community deemed a player like Spades should never be capable of doing without hacking.
This case will never be solved because there are few people like me who took the time to review circumstances where he isn't hacking. Games from Spring Arena, IPL Qualifiers, HomeStory Cup Qualifiers should be perfect examples of a reason to hack, where he clearly did not. There are way too many instances of moves a player with map hack should not do. All you tend to see is his win rate and rank 1 GM and therefore because of his "fishy play" have ruined the career of a very underrated player. To say he hacked in bw is non sense compared to the amount of people that hacked in bw. Of course it doesn't help his defense but at this point nothing would. This is sc2 where everyone had a fresh start to show off their talents.
The death threats that he's receiving and the fact that he has to leave his team is still not enough apparently. I hope you understand that Spades was not treated fairly and given the benefit of the doubt. I hope Spades does his best at MLG and WCS or at least has games that shows that he's truly worthy of taking games off the best.
It still amazes me people type MASSIVE amounts of text and barley understand the situation. To sum it up for you, all the replays he posted he is playing legit and no one was trying to say other wise. The train of thought is he maphacked for this in particular show match, and there is heavy heavy evidence to support that. To me the most compelling is the following:
In his show match games[7 of them] he regularly: 1. Sends his scv to scout and goes in the base then out of the base with out ever looking at the scv[or scouting the second gas] or buildings. [Who would EVER send a scv in and out of a base and not look at any buildings...] 2. Never once, EVER no matter what looks into the fog of war and has frequent 5-10 second screen pauces. 3. Does very odd scans where the only way you can do them is the mini-map. This is all with out including the very very odd moves.. such as stimming and running back all his marines 1 inch away from siege with out ever seeing the tanks. There is dozens of very odd stuff like this in a small Bo7 when he very rarely does that kinda stuff in a 100 game sample.
Compare this to his normal ladder games where: 1. He ALWAYS checks his SCV and scouts both gas.. 2. He ALWAYS looks into the fog of war like 10+ times a game.. 3. Scans 100% different [looking into fog of war] every single game...
I find it rather odd you made that huge post[lots of effort] with out even realizing no one thought he hacked in the replays he posted him self.
It amazes me that someone who is not semi pro is trying to judge someone who competes at MLG events and such.
On June 06 2012 07:45 Jedclark wrote: Why is everyone giving him sympathy in this thread? A day ago, "He needs to be punished! Remove him from his team, ban him from all tournaments!" Now some sort of punishment has actually occurred, "I hate this community, another successful witch hunt...", etc.
He deserves to not be on a team. He blatantly maphacked, he was caught doing it.
On June 06 2012 07:20 Attero wrote: I'm sure a lot of people are going to hate me for this but this is wrong. All this evidence you guys are claiming that proves Spades is a hacker is utterly ridiculous. So you don't agree with his play, well he definitely knows the game way better than most of you and spent time in Korea making sure he could enhance his knowledge.
I watched all the Lucifron games for 2 hours, and just now spent more time on The Catz analysis as well. I can dismiss what Illusion says because he is simply a Terran player that believes everything Spades does is wrong and bad play, which simply added to his own suspicions. Spades also responded to Illusions' suspicions. This is more like an argument than a trial if anything. You say this and that's all fine, but what about this and that? It never solves anything.
Anyone looking at any of the replays that SPADES POSTED HIMSELF can see that he does things that no hacker would do. How many times has he suicided his armies and made terrible decisions. You think he did that just in case people were starting to catch on? He's always been a Grandmaster, and always will be when he's active. Which doesn't seem to be for long thanks to this.
The only crime he committed was taking games off a player the community deemed a player like Spades should never be capable of doing without hacking.
This case will never be solved because there are few people like me who took the time to review circumstances where he isn't hacking. Games from Spring Arena, IPL Qualifiers, HomeStory Cup Qualifiers should be perfect examples of a reason to hack, where he clearly did not. There are way too many instances of moves a player with map hack should not do. All you tend to see is his win rate and rank 1 GM and therefore because of his "fishy play" have ruined the career of a very underrated player. To say he hacked in bw is non sense compared to the amount of people that hacked in bw. Of course it doesn't help his defense but at this point nothing would. This is sc2 where everyone had a fresh start to show off their talents.
The death threats that he's receiving and the fact that he has to leave his team is still not enough apparently. I hope you understand that Spades was not treated fairly and given the benefit of the doubt. I hope Spades does his best at MLG and WCS or at least has games that shows that he's truly worthy of taking games off the best.
It still amazes me people type MASSIVE amounts of text and barley understand the situation. To sum it up for you, all the replays he posted he is playing legit and no one was trying to say other wise. The train of thought is he maphacked for this in particular show match, and there is heavy heavy evidence to support that. To me the most compelling is the following:
In his show match games[7 of them] he regularly: 1. Sends his scv to scout and goes in the base then out of the base with out ever looking at the scv[or scouting the second gas] or buildings. [Who would EVER send a scv in and out of a base and not look at any buildings...] 2. Never once, EVER no matter what looks into the fog of war and has frequent 5-10 second screen pauces. 3. Does very odd scans where the only way you can do them is the mini-map. This is all with out including the very very odd moves.. such as stimming and running back all his marines 1 inch away from siege with out ever seeing the tanks. There is dozens of very odd stuff like this in a small Bo7 when he very rarely does that kinda stuff in a 100 game sample.
Compare this to his normal ladder games where: 1. He ALWAYS checks his SCV and scouts both gas.. 2. He ALWAYS looks into the fog of war like 10+ times a game.. 3. Scans 100% different [looking into fog of war] every single game...
I find it rather odd you made that huge post[lots of effort] with out even realizing no one thought he hacked in the replays he posted him self.
It amazes me that someone who is not semi pro is trying to judge someone who competes at MLG events and such.
Cause all sports commentators needs to be top level players in order to understand the game?
People can still give their opinion whether or not they are part of the top player base... -.-
On June 06 2012 07:20 Attero wrote: He's always been a Grandmaster, and always will be when he's active.
All you tend to see is his win rate and rank 1 GM and therefore because of his "fishy play" have ruined the career of a very underrated player.
He's always been a Grandmaster? You sure about that? I've watched him for a long time (since before he was ever featured)I seem to remember a lot of rank 1 masters, but...
It seems you think that any low GM can reach rank 1 GM along with a fantastic win rate... with all due respect I think you are mistaken.
And how come we never saw Spades stream during this time of being #1 GM (or close to #1)? Was he afraid his fan base would blow up too much? Viewer count would crash his computer? It was the biggest opportunity of his career to get his name out... doesn't make sense, does it? Now read the last 2 or 3 paragraphs of gIX's statement - the pieces start to fit. Spades' explanation to his vanishing when he was #1 GM after leaving Reign? Oh, he didn't give one.
Off-topic (sort of) What would you do if you hit #1 GM Attero, would you hide for a few weeks? No, I think you'd be streaming your ass off.
On June 06 2012 07:20 Attero wrote: I'm sure a lot of people are going to hate me for this but this is wrong. All this evidence you guys are claiming that proves Spades is a hacker is utterly ridiculous. So you don't agree with his play, well he definitely knows the game way better than most of you and spent time in Korea making sure he could enhance his knowledge.
I watched all the Lucifron games for 2 hours, and just now spent more time on The Catz analysis as well. I can dismiss what Illusion says because he is simply a Terran player that believes everything Spades does is wrong and bad play, which simply added to his own suspicions. Spades also responded to Illusions' suspicions. This is more like an argument than a trial if anything. You say this and that's all fine, but what about this and that? It never solves anything.
Anyone looking at any of the replays that SPADES POSTED HIMSELF can see that he does things that no hacker would do. How many times has he suicided his armies and made terrible decisions. You think he did that just in case people were starting to catch on? He's always been a Grandmaster, and always will be when he's active. Which doesn't seem to be for long thanks to this.
The only crime he committed was taking games off a player the community deemed a player like Spades should never be capable of doing without hacking.
This case will never be solved because there are few people like me who took the time to review circumstances where he isn't hacking. Games from Spring Arena, IPL Qualifiers, HomeStory Cup Qualifiers should be perfect examples of a reason to hack, where he clearly did not. There are way too many instances of moves a player with map hack should not do. All you tend to see is his win rate and rank 1 GM and therefore because of his "fishy play" have ruined the career of a very underrated player. To say he hacked in bw is non sense compared to the amount of people that hacked in bw. Of course it doesn't help his defense but at this point nothing would. This is sc2 where everyone had a fresh start to show off their talents.
The death threats that he's receiving and the fact that he has to leave his team is still not enough apparently. I hope you understand that Spades was not treated fairly and given the benefit of the doubt. I hope Spades does his best at MLG and WCS or at least has games that shows that he's truly worthy of taking games off the best.
It still amazes me people type MASSIVE amounts of text and barley understand the situation. To sum it up for you, all the replays he posted he is playing legit and no one was trying to say other wise. The train of thought is he maphacked for this in particular show match, and there is heavy heavy evidence to support that. To me the most compelling is the following:
In his show match games[7 of them] he regularly: 1. Sends his scv to scout and goes in the base then out of the base with out ever looking at the scv[or scouting the second gas] or buildings. [Who would EVER send a scv in and out of a base and not look at any buildings...] 2. Never once, EVER no matter what looks into the fog of war and has frequent 5-10 second screen pauces. 3. Does very odd scans where the only way you can do them is the mini-map. This is all with out including the very very odd moves.. such as stimming and running back all his marines 1 inch away from siege with out ever seeing the tanks. There is dozens of very odd stuff like this in a small Bo7 when he very rarely does that kinda stuff in a 100 game sample.
Compare this to his normal ladder games where: 1. He ALWAYS checks his SCV and scouts both gas.. 2. He ALWAYS looks into the fog of war like 10+ times a game.. 3. Scans 100% different [looking into fog of war] every single game...
I find it rather odd you made that huge post[lots of effort] with out even realizing no one thought he hacked in the replays he posted him self.
It amazes me that someone who is not semi pro is trying to judge someone who competes at MLG events and such.
Anyone who has money can compete at MLG. lol. And someone does not need to be a pro to analyze gameplay patterns.
On June 06 2012 07:20 Attero wrote: I'm sure a lot of people are going to hate me for this but this is wrong. All this evidence you guys are claiming that proves Spades is a hacker is utterly ridiculous. So you don't agree with his play, well he definitely knows the game way better than most of you and spent time in Korea making sure he could enhance his knowledge.
I watched all the Lucifron games for 2 hours, and just now spent more time on The Catz analysis as well. I can dismiss what Illusion says because he is simply a Terran player that believes everything Spades does is wrong and bad play, which simply added to his own suspicions. Spades also responded to Illusions' suspicions. This is more like an argument than a trial if anything. You say this and that's all fine, but what about this and that? It never solves anything.
Anyone looking at any of the replays that SPADES POSTED HIMSELF can see that he does things that no hacker would do. How many times has he suicided his armies and made terrible decisions. You think he did that just in case people were starting to catch on? He's always been a Grandmaster, and always will be when he's active. Which doesn't seem to be for long thanks to this.
The only crime he committed was taking games off a player the community deemed a player like Spades should never be capable of doing without hacking.
This case will never be solved because there are few people like me who took the time to review circumstances where he isn't hacking. Games from Spring Arena, IPL Qualifiers, HomeStory Cup Qualifiers should be perfect examples of a reason to hack, where he clearly did not. There are way too many instances of moves a player with map hack should not do. All you tend to see is his win rate and rank 1 GM and therefore because of his "fishy play" have ruined the career of a very underrated player. To say he hacked in bw is non sense compared to the amount of people that hacked in bw. Of course it doesn't help his defense but at this point nothing would. This is sc2 where everyone had a fresh start to show off their talents.
The death threats that he's receiving and the fact that he has to leave his team is still not enough apparently. I hope you understand that Spades was not treated fairly and given the benefit of the doubt. I hope Spades does his best at MLG and WCS or at least has games that shows that he's truly worthy of taking games off the best.
It still amazes me people type MASSIVE amounts of text and barley understand the situation. To sum it up for you, all the replays he posted he is playing legit and no one was trying to say other wise. The train of thought is he maphacked for this in particular show match, and there is heavy heavy evidence to support that. To me the most compelling is the following:
In his show match games[7 of them] he regularly: 1. Sends his scv to scout and goes in the base then out of the base with out ever looking at the scv[or scouting the second gas] or buildings. [Who would EVER send a scv in and out of a base and not look at any buildings...] 2. Never once, EVER no matter what looks into the fog of war and has frequent 5-10 second screen pauces. 3. Does very odd scans where the only way you can do them is the mini-map. This is all with out including the very very odd moves.. such as stimming and running back all his marines 1 inch away from siege with out ever seeing the tanks. There is dozens of very odd stuff like this in a small Bo7 when he very rarely does that kinda stuff in a 100 game sample.
Compare this to his normal ladder games where: 1. He ALWAYS checks his SCV and scouts both gas.. 2. He ALWAYS looks into the fog of war like 10+ times a game.. 3. Scans 100% different [looking into fog of war] every single game...
I find it rather odd you made that huge post[lots of effort] with out even realizing no one thought he hacked in the replays he posted him self.
It amazes me that someone who is not semi pro is trying to judge someone who competes at MLG events and such.
Cause all sports commentators needs to be top level players in order to understand the game?
People can still give their opinion whether or not they are part of the top player base... -.-
and people can discredit them by saying they have no-say compared to a pro player.
On June 06 2012 07:20 Attero wrote: I'm sure a lot of people are going to hate me for this but this is wrong. All this evidence you guys are claiming that proves Spades is a hacker is utterly ridiculous. So you don't agree with his play, well he definitely knows the game way better than most of you and spent time in Korea making sure he could enhance his knowledge.
I watched all the Lucifron games for 2 hours, and just now spent more time on The Catz analysis as well. I can dismiss what Illusion says because he is simply a Terran player that believes everything Spades does is wrong and bad play, which simply added to his own suspicions. Spades also responded to Illusions' suspicions. This is more like an argument than a trial if anything. You say this and that's all fine, but what about this and that? It never solves anything.
Anyone looking at any of the replays that SPADES POSTED HIMSELF can see that he does things that no hacker would do. How many times has he suicided his armies and made terrible decisions. You think he did that just in case people were starting to catch on? He's always been a Grandmaster, and always will be when he's active. Which doesn't seem to be for long thanks to this.
The only crime he committed was taking games off a player the community deemed a player like Spades should never be capable of doing without hacking.
This case will never be solved because there are few people like me who took the time to review circumstances where he isn't hacking. Games from Spring Arena, IPL Qualifiers, HomeStory Cup Qualifiers should be perfect examples of a reason to hack, where he clearly did not. There are way too many instances of moves a player with map hack should not do. All you tend to see is his win rate and rank 1 GM and therefore because of his "fishy play" have ruined the career of a very underrated player. To say he hacked in bw is non sense compared to the amount of people that hacked in bw. Of course it doesn't help his defense but at this point nothing would. This is sc2 where everyone had a fresh start to show off their talents.
The death threats that he's receiving and the fact that he has to leave his team is still not enough apparently. I hope you understand that Spades was not treated fairly and given the benefit of the doubt. I hope Spades does his best at MLG and WCS or at least has games that shows that he's truly worthy of taking games off the best.
The only thing you seem to be defending him with is that "I can dismiss what Illusion says because he is simply a Terran player that believes everything Spades does is wrong and bad play, which simply added to his own suspicions." and that he posted replays of his recent games. First off, the dismissal of Illusion is completely irrational and honestly incredibly stupid, if you actually listened to what everyone in the Skype call said about the issue, they all agreed that the circumstantial evidence which could be explained by "bad play" was put off to the side because, like they said, it could have been due to bad play. They never used those examples as a part of their main evidence. In addition to that, if you watched the army movements that he executed during the matches (specifically the game vs LucifroN on Tal'Darim), you can clearly see he was defending against attacks out of his vision, and as Illusion and Drewbie pointed out, he never had a marine scouting the flank positions, which is what every Grandmaster-level Terran would do in that situation. There is also a lot more evidence throughout the entire broadcast, but because you're his friend, you decided to listen to the only thing you could hear which could be easily disproven. On to the next point you made (about him uploading the replays), you mention that "he does things that no hacker would do". I'm not sure if you're just in-denial or very stupid, but, let's say he was hacking, why would he upload the replays that displayed him hacking..? That makes no sense at all, and can't even be a point to argue about. He also suffered more by uploading those replays, because it gave everyone proof that he plays completely differently in every ladder game than in the games he was accused of hacking in. You could say that he plays differently in tournaments vs. ladder games, but, as it's been repeated by nearly every progamer, it's impossible to change mechanics like that, especially at a grandmaster level. It seems like you're trying to defend your friend while ignoring every piece of evidence, kind of similar to how he defends himself. I would suggest you, along with Spades, to not posting anymore unless you can actually provide something useful to the discussion.
On June 06 2012 07:20 Attero wrote: I'm sure a lot of people are going to hate me for this but this is wrong. All this evidence you guys are claiming that proves Spades is a hacker is utterly ridiculous. So you don't agree with his play, well he definitely knows the game way better than most of you and spent time in Korea making sure he could enhance his knowledge.
I watched all the Lucifron games for 2 hours, and just now spent more time on The Catz analysis as well. I can dismiss what Illusion says because he is simply a Terran player that believes everything Spades does is wrong and bad play, which simply added to his own suspicions. Spades also responded to Illusions' suspicions. This is more like an argument than a trial if anything. You say this and that's all fine, but what about this and that? It never solves anything.
Anyone looking at any of the replays that SPADES POSTED HIMSELF can see that he does things that no hacker would do. How many times has he suicided his armies and made terrible decisions. You think he did that just in case people were starting to catch on? He's always been a Grandmaster, and always will be when he's active. Which doesn't seem to be for long thanks to this.
The only crime he committed was taking games off a player the community deemed a player like Spades should never be capable of doing without hacking.
This case will never be solved because there are few people like me who took the time to review circumstances where he isn't hacking. Games from Spring Arena, IPL Qualifiers, HomeStory Cup Qualifiers should be perfect examples of a reason to hack, where he clearly did not. There are way too many instances of moves a player with map hack should not do. All you tend to see is his win rate and rank 1 GM and therefore because of his "fishy play" have ruined the career of a very underrated player. To say he hacked in bw is non sense compared to the amount of people that hacked in bw. Of course it doesn't help his defense but at this point nothing would. This is sc2 where everyone had a fresh start to show off their talents.
The death threats that he's receiving and the fact that he has to leave his team is still not enough apparently. I hope you understand that Spades was not treated fairly and given the benefit of the doubt. I hope Spades does his best at MLG and WCS or at least has games that shows that he's truly worthy of taking games off the best.
It still amazes me people type MASSIVE amounts of text and barley understand the situation. To sum it up for you, all the replays he posted he is playing legit and no one was trying to say other wise. The train of thought is he maphacked for this in particular show match, and there is heavy heavy evidence to support that. To me the most compelling is the following:
In his show match games[7 of them] he regularly: 1. Sends his scv to scout and goes in the base then out of the base with out ever looking at the scv[or scouting the second gas] or buildings. [Who would EVER send a scv in and out of a base and not look at any buildings...] 2. Never once, EVER no matter what looks into the fog of war and has frequent 5-10 second screen pauces. 3. Does very odd scans where the only way you can do them is the mini-map. This is all with out including the very very odd moves.. such as stimming and running back all his marines 1 inch away from siege with out ever seeing the tanks. There is dozens of very odd stuff like this in a small Bo7 when he very rarely does that kinda stuff in a 100 game sample.
Compare this to his normal ladder games where: 1. He ALWAYS checks his SCV and scouts both gas.. 2. He ALWAYS looks into the fog of war like 10+ times a game.. 3. Scans 100% different [looking into fog of war] every single game...
I find it rather odd you made that huge post[lots of effort] with out even realizing no one thought he hacked in the replays he posted him self.
It amazes me that someone who is not semi pro is trying to judge someone who competes at MLG events and such.
Cause all sports commentators needs to be top level players in order to understand the game?
People can still give their opinion whether or not they are part of the top player base... -.-
Yah but he is trying to say Attero doesnt understand at all and Attero specifically posts that he went over the replays for two hours. Probably a lot more than most others did.
On June 06 2012 07:20 Attero wrote: I'm sure a lot of people are going to hate me for this but this is wrong. All this evidence you guys are claiming that proves Spades is a hacker is utterly ridiculous. So you don't agree with his play, well he definitely knows the game way better than most of you and spent time in Korea making sure he could enhance his knowledge.
I watched all the Lucifron games for 2 hours, and just now spent more time on The Catz analysis as well. I can dismiss what Illusion says because he is simply a Terran player that believes everything Spades does is wrong and bad play, which simply added to his own suspicions. Spades also responded to Illusions' suspicions. This is more like an argument than a trial if anything. You say this and that's all fine, but what about this and that? It never solves anything.
Anyone looking at any of the replays that SPADES POSTED HIMSELF can see that he does things that no hacker would do. How many times has he suicided his armies and made terrible decisions. You think he did that just in case people were starting to catch on? He's always been a Grandmaster, and always will be when he's active. Which doesn't seem to be for long thanks to this.
The only crime he committed was taking games off a player the community deemed a player like Spades should never be capable of doing without hacking.
This case will never be solved because there are few people like me who took the time to review circumstances where he isn't hacking. Games from Spring Arena, IPL Qualifiers, HomeStory Cup Qualifiers should be perfect examples of a reason to hack, where he clearly did not. There are way too many instances of moves a player with map hack should not do. All you tend to see is his win rate and rank 1 GM and therefore because of his "fishy play" have ruined the career of a very underrated player. To say he hacked in bw is non sense compared to the amount of people that hacked in bw. Of course it doesn't help his defense but at this point nothing would. This is sc2 where everyone had a fresh start to show off their talents.
The death threats that he's receiving and the fact that he has to leave his team is still not enough apparently. I hope you understand that Spades was not treated fairly and given the benefit of the doubt. I hope Spades does his best at MLG and WCS or at least has games that shows that he's truly worthy of taking games off the best.
It still amazes me people type MASSIVE amounts of text and barley understand the situation. To sum it up for you, all the replays he posted he is playing legit and no one was trying to say other wise. The train of thought is he maphacked for this in particular show match, and there is heavy heavy evidence to support that. To me the most compelling is the following:
In his show match games[7 of them] he regularly: 1. Sends his scv to scout and goes in the base then out of the base with out ever looking at the scv[or scouting the second gas] or buildings. [Who would EVER send a scv in and out of a base and not look at any buildings...] 2. Never once, EVER no matter what looks into the fog of war and has frequent 5-10 second screen pauces. 3. Does very odd scans where the only way you can do them is the mini-map. This is all with out including the very very odd moves.. such as stimming and running back all his marines 1 inch away from siege with out ever seeing the tanks. There is dozens of very odd stuff like this in a small Bo7 when he very rarely does that kinda stuff in a 100 game sample.
Compare this to his normal ladder games where: 1. He ALWAYS checks his SCV and scouts both gas.. 2. He ALWAYS looks into the fog of war like 10+ times a game.. 3. Scans 100% different [looking into fog of war] every single game...
I find it rather odd you made that huge post[lots of effort] with out even realizing no one thought he hacked in the replays he posted him self.
It amazes me that someone who is not semi pro is trying to judge someone who competes at MLG events and such.
Cause all sports commentators needs to be top level players in order to understand the game?
People can still give their opinion whether or not they are part of the top player base... -.-
Yah but he is trying to say Attero doesnt understand at all and Attero specifically posts that he went over the replays for two hours. Probably a lot more than most others did.
Yeah, then attero thought that the catz committee thought he was hacking in the replays he provided. When clearly thats not the case at all.
Very easy to understand but attero apparently missed it
Ffs why doesnt he just admit it...If he wasn't maphacking surely he'd defend himself, and not just mumble neutral rubbish then quit his team before they conclude the same thing everyone in the community has.
I think Spades did the right thing. Most of us don't know for sure if he was guilty or not. But whatever it was, this unwanted attention will hurt WW so he did the right thing and spared them.
On June 06 2012 07:20 Attero wrote: I'm sure a lot of people are going to hate me for this but this is wrong. All this evidence you guys are claiming that proves Spades is a hacker is utterly ridiculous. So you don't agree with his play, well he definitely knows the game way better than most of you and spent time in Korea making sure he could enhance his knowledge.
I watched all the Lucifron games for 2 hours, and just now spent more time on The Catz analysis as well. I can dismiss what Illusion says because he is simply a Terran player that believes everything Spades does is wrong and bad play, which simply added to his own suspicions. Spades also responded to Illusions' suspicions. This is more like an argument than a trial if anything. You say this and that's all fine, but what about this and that? It never solves anything.
Anyone looking at any of the replays that SPADES POSTED HIMSELF can see that he does things that no hacker would do. How many times has he suicided his armies and made terrible decisions. You think he did that just in case people were starting to catch on? He's always been a Grandmaster, and always will be when he's active. Which doesn't seem to be for long thanks to this.
The only crime he committed was taking games off a player the community deemed a player like Spades should never be capable of doing without hacking.
This case will never be solved because there are few people like me who took the time to review circumstances where he isn't hacking. Games from Spring Arena, IPL Qualifiers, HomeStory Cup Qualifiers should be perfect examples of a reason to hack, where he clearly did not. There are way too many instances of moves a player with map hack should not do. All you tend to see is his win rate and rank 1 GM and therefore because of his "fishy play" have ruined the career of a very underrated player. To say he hacked in bw is non sense compared to the amount of people that hacked in bw. Of course it doesn't help his defense but at this point nothing would. This is sc2 where everyone had a fresh start to show off their talents.
The death threats that he's receiving and the fact that he has to leave his team is still not enough apparently. I hope you understand that Spades was not treated fairly and given the benefit of the doubt. I hope Spades does his best at MLG and WCS or at least has games that shows that he's truly worthy of taking games off the best.
It still amazes me people type MASSIVE amounts of text and barley understand the situation. To sum it up for you, all the replays he posted he is playing legit and no one was trying to say other wise. The train of thought is he maphacked for this in particular show match, and there is heavy heavy evidence to support that. To me the most compelling is the following:
In his show match games[7 of them] he regularly: 1. Sends his scv to scout and goes in the base then out of the base with out ever looking at the scv[or scouting the second gas] or buildings. [Who would EVER send a scv in and out of a base and not look at any buildings...] 2. Never once, EVER no matter what looks into the fog of war and has frequent 5-10 second screen pauces. 3. Does very odd scans where the only way you can do them is the mini-map. This is all with out including the very very odd moves.. such as stimming and running back all his marines 1 inch away from siege with out ever seeing the tanks. There is dozens of very odd stuff like this in a small Bo7 when he very rarely does that kinda stuff in a 100 game sample.
Compare this to his normal ladder games where: 1. He ALWAYS checks his SCV and scouts both gas.. 2. He ALWAYS looks into the fog of war like 10+ times a game.. 3. Scans 100% different [looking into fog of war] every single game...
I find it rather odd you made that huge post[lots of effort] with out even realizing no one thought he hacked in the replays he posted him self.
It amazes me that someone who is not semi pro is trying to judge someone who competes at MLG events and such.
Cause all sports commentators needs to be top level players in order to understand the game?
People can still give their opinion whether or not they are part of the top player base... -.-
Yah but he is trying to say Attero doesnt understand at all and Attero specifically posts that he went over the replays for two hours. Probably a lot more than most others did.
The guy just gave some very decent arguments for Attero miss-judging the material. Doesn't matter if you spend 2 hours or 1000 hours. If you don't understand what you study, your conclusion will still be false.
Hmmmm, interesting. I really don't think there was any compelling proof of hacking (not even a little), but this behavior is suspicious.... His in game actions say no, his out of game actions say "wtf??". Don't take this too seriously, Spades. If you are legitimately not hacking, keep gaming, okay?
And the mob rule prevails, man I bet everyone's feeling so cool because 'OMG we caught a hacker guys!'.
Why even bother to give him the benefit of the doubt or question que fabulous and effective biased methods of Catz & co? Internet justice is the future and clearly the only way to go. What a fucking lovely community.
On June 06 2012 07:59 Kergy wrote: And the mob rule prevails, man I bet everyone's feeling so cool because 'OMG we caught a hacker guys!'.
Why even bother to give him the benefit of the doubt or question que fabulous and effective biased methods of Catz & co? Internet justice is the future and clearly the only way to go. What a fucking lovely community.
Wasn't biased. Stop saying it was. They looked at the replays before they began streaming and then they made their decision. Bias would be analyzing the replays and saying hes obviously hacking before they look at the evidence.
Well if he wasn't hacking he'd just say that he wasn't hacking. And his team would back him up a bit, I mean negative publicity is still publicity. But he was obviously hacking and there's no point dragging people into it. I guess he just hopes for everyone to forget this and sometime come back. Shouldn't blame him too hard I guess though, since from what i've understood he was playing in a no money prize showmatch when he 'hacked' .
I gained a lot of respect for your team through all this. Glad to see a team back someone for once. I really lost respect for EG when they cut that caster dude for something that really wasn't all that bad. You guys at least stood up for him and in the end it was him that left. GL
If Attero spent two hours watching the replays and didn't notice, for example, Cloud Kingdom 9:50, then he's just bad at watching replays I guess.
Guys, this is the closest you'll ever get to proving someone hacks. I sure hope a lot of you "innocent until guilty" people wise up and learn how hackers are usually dealt with. You can almost never 100% prove somebody is hacking, but when bullshit happens like has happened in all 7 showmatches, you can determine that he hacks based on that alone. This is how hackers are caught, and this is how hackers will be caught in the future.
And anyone saying there wasn't any compelling proof has probably not watched any of the replays or stream analyses or has a really poor grasp of the game.
On June 06 2012 07:59 Kergy wrote: And the mob rule prevails, man I bet everyone's feeling so cool because 'OMG we caught a hacker guys!'.
Why even bother to give him the benefit of the doubt or question que fabulous and effective biased methods of Catz & co? Internet justice is the future and clearly the only way to go. What a fucking lovely community.
sigh, i'm really fucking tired of hearing about the biased methods of catz.
They all stated Spades is a nice guy, he's their friend. The reason they seemed biased on stream is because they had ALL watched the replays multiple times AND had their own time stamps that weren't in the OP. Jesus, they didn't start out biased, their conclusions were that he hacked. They then presented this on stream.
It's not like they were out to get him from the start, unless this is conspiracy.
On June 06 2012 08:05 All.In wrote: I gained a lot of respect for your team through all this. Glad to see a team back someone for once. I really lost respect for EG when they cut that caster dude for something that really wasn't all that bad. You guys at least stood up for him and in the end it was him that left. GL
EG felt it was bad and so did most of the community.
On June 06 2012 07:59 Kergy wrote: And the mob rule prevails, man I bet everyone's feeling so cool because 'OMG we caught a hacker guys!'.
Why even bother to give him the benefit of the doubt or question que fabulous and effective biased methods of Catz & co? Internet justice is the future and clearly the only way to go. What a fucking lovely community.
Wasn't biased. Stop saying it was. They looked at the replays before they began streaming and then they made their decision. Bias would be analyzing the replays and saying hes obviously hacking before they look at the evidence.
Wake up please.
Mob mentality and information cascade. Look them up. How do you think riots work?
On June 06 2012 07:59 Kergy wrote: And the mob rule prevails, man I bet everyone's feeling so cool because 'OMG we caught a hacker guys!'.
Why even bother to give him the benefit of the doubt or question que fabulous and effective biased methods of Catz & co? Internet justice is the future and clearly the only way to go. What a fucking lovely community.
Wasn't biased. Stop saying it was. They looked at the replays before they began streaming and then they made their decision. Bias would be analyzing the replays and saying hes obviously hacking before they look at the evidence.
Wake up please.
Mob mentality and information cascade. Look them up. How do you think riots work?
I'd rather not but thanks. Though if you were talking to the other person (doubt it but i dont know) you should quote them instead
On June 06 2012 08:05 All.In wrote: I gained a lot of respect for your team through all this. Glad to see a team back someone for once. I really lost respect for EG when they cut that caster dude for something that really wasn't all that bad. You guys at least stood up for him and in the end it was him that left. GL
EG felt it was bad and so did most of the community.
Yeah, different situation. With orb, there was basically 100% proof he did what he was accused of. That's not something EG can discredit. WW backed Spades saying that he didn't do it, completely different.
Anyways, as the mod note says this isn't the place to discuss whether or not he did it, I'll leave out my opinion and just say this:
On June 06 2012 07:20 Attero wrote: I'm sure a lot of people are going to hate me for this but this is wrong. All this evidence you guys are claiming that proves Spades is a hacker is utterly ridiculous. So you don't agree with his play, well he definitely knows the game way better than most of you and spent time in Korea making sure he could enhance his knowledge.
I watched all the Lucifron games for 2 hours, and just now spent more time on The Catz analysis as well. I can dismiss what Illusion says because he is simply a Terran player that believes everything Spades does is wrong and bad play, which simply added to his own suspicions. Spades also responded to Illusions' suspicions. This is more like an argument than a trial if anything. You say this and that's all fine, but what about this and that? It never solves anything.
Anyone looking at any of the replays that SPADES POSTED HIMSELF can see that he does things that no hacker would do. How many times has he suicided his armies and made terrible decisions. You think he did that just in case people were starting to catch on? He's always been a Grandmaster, and always will be when he's active. Which doesn't seem to be for long thanks to this.
The only crime he committed was taking games off a player the community deemed a player like Spades should never be capable of doing without hacking.
This case will never be solved because there are few people like me who took the time to review circumstances where he isn't hacking. Games from Spring Arena, IPL Qualifiers, HomeStory Cup Qualifiers should be perfect examples of a reason to hack, where he clearly did not. There are way too many instances of moves a player with map hack should not do. All you tend to see is his win rate and rank 1 GM and therefore because of his "fishy play" have ruined the career of a very underrated player. To say he hacked in bw is non sense compared to the amount of people that hacked in bw. Of course it doesn't help his defense but at this point nothing would. This is sc2 where everyone had a fresh start to show off their talents.
The death threats that he's receiving and the fact that he has to leave his team is still not enough apparently. I hope you understand that Spades was not treated fairly and given the benefit of the doubt. I hope Spades does his best at MLG and WCS or at least has games that shows that he's truly worthy of taking games off the best.
It still amazes me people type MASSIVE amounts of text and barley understand the situation. To sum it up for you, all the replays he posted he is playing legit and no one was trying to say other wise. The train of thought is he maphacked for this in particular show match, and there is heavy heavy evidence to support that. To me the most compelling is the following:
In his show match games[7 of them] he regularly: 1. Sends his scv to scout and goes in the base then out of the base with out ever looking at the scv[or scouting the second gas] or buildings. [Who would EVER send a scv in and out of a base and not look at any buildings...] 2. Never once, EVER no matter what looks into the fog of war and has frequent 5-10 second screen pauces. 3. Does very odd scans where the only way you can do them is the mini-map. This is all with out including the very very odd moves.. such as stimming and running back all his marines 1 inch away from siege with out ever seeing the tanks. There is dozens of very odd stuff like this in a small Bo7 when he very rarely does that kinda stuff in a 100 game sample.
Compare this to his normal ladder games where: 1. He ALWAYS checks his SCV and scouts both gas.. 2. He ALWAYS looks into the fog of war like 10+ times a game.. 3. Scans 100% different [looking into fog of war] every single game...
I find it rather odd you made that huge post[lots of effort] with out even realizing no one thought he hacked in the replays he posted him self.
This should be a must-read... for all those who haven't watch CatZ & Co's analysis and haven't followed this whole story from the start. This is hardly a witch hunt, but a careful dissection of his replays which showed beyond a reasonable doubt that he was map hacking.
On June 06 2012 08:05 All.In wrote: I gained a lot of respect for your team through all this. Glad to see a team back someone for once. I really lost respect for EG when they cut that caster dude for something that really wasn't all that bad. You guys at least stood up for him and in the end it was him that left. GL
so naive.
its standard PR practice to announce that a player, or any employee for that matter, has left an organization on his/her own volition when in fact they were simply let go/fired. this is more than likely what happened here, and more than likely what happened with Destiny when "he decided to leave Quantic to not tarnish their reputation"
On June 06 2012 06:15 NeMeSiS3 wrote: It's funny, with all the witch hunting... I've noticed a odd amount of the users totally shitting on Spades consisted of users who bitch all the time in balance discussions. Hopefully, next time another player is thrown under the bus blizzard can announce another patch so the idiots who are posting can be slimmed down to the regular squabbling over who's races dick is bigger than the others.
Spades, you'll likely not read this, but you were a damn good terran and a good up and coming player, my personal advice would be to simply forget the haters, and take the next 6months to just play and improve, then come back to the scene... But I understand how difficult and betrayed you probably feel. Goodluck in your future, preferably pick a game without such an immature audience next time you want to go pro though...
Speaking of which, I now find it mildly ironic Nony mentioned how mature (age wise) are community was on SOTG, it doesn't seem to correlate with how we act.
How betrayed he probably feels?
The guy was caught maphacking in brood war... was extremely adamant that he never did it and played victim for two years even though TeamLiquid had hard evidence on him cheating. Finally decided to apologize by PM'ing TL mods when he decided to go pro in SC2 because he most likely realized that he would've probably been continued to be blacklisted by the community otherwise.
Here, his ex-manager and ex-teammate claim that he has streamcheated. He calls both of them liars and plays victim ("World is out to get me") once again. Just what motivation would those guys have completely fabricating something out of thin air?
On June 06 2012 08:26 windsupernova wrote: Good luck to Spades and Western Wolves.
Hope Spades can do well in the WCS to show he is a skilled player and somewhat redeems himself in the eyes of the people doubting him
I don't see him doing well... He will attempt to play exclusively through the mini map to disprove these theories saying "SEE I ALWAYS PLAY LIKE THIS, EVEN AT LANS!" and get smashed.
retiring to what? if you have a back up plan in life then I wish you all the best of luck but if not.. just stay with the community. Clear your name, admit you were cheating and put it behind you.
He overstated how much damage has already been done. As soon as a verdict is reached (Which it will be. An issue this big is not going to be left with an ambiguous ending.) he will either be exonerated or exiled. I don't see why he left already.
On June 06 2012 08:26 windsupernova wrote: Good luck to Spades and Western Wolves.
Hope Spades can do well in the WCS to show he is a skilled player and somewhat redeems himself in the eyes of the people doubting him
Whether he gained any advantage from hacking is besides the point. If he did indeed hack, then the crime is in the hacking itself, not "gaining an advantage from hacking".
Yeah, I'm skeptical. I'm FAIRLY sure a more well known player would not only have a team to back him, but a dozen or more teammates/former teammates who have all lived with him, his manager, opponents, and friends who have all seen them play to vouch for him. There is no way in hell a team drops them without concrete evidence. I just don't see it happening. Ever.
On June 06 2012 04:57 OzkanTheFlip wrote: Spades, no1 wants you quit, worst case scenario is you made a mistake and hopefully admit to it and grow some balls your still going to do well.
As a fellow long time member of the BW community I've seen plenty of people exposed for hacking. Very few of the people caught hacking own up to it right away, most try to deny it before they give up and admit the truth.
The SC community has always been very forgiving and once a hacker admits what they've done it seems like it's more or less universally forgiven.
I mean... spades himself was caught hacking in bw and people looked past it in sc2. Anyways, I agree with you. Nobody wants him to quit, but I'm not entirely convinced he's good enough to be a top player without his hacks based on what Mirhi and giX had to say in the other thread. Either way people just want e-sports to be fair and clean.
On June 06 2012 04:57 OzkanTheFlip wrote: Spades, no1 wants you quit, worst case scenario is you made a mistake and hopefully admit to it and grow some balls your still going to do well.
I want him out. I'm tired of all this hacking. It's not even a question of a second chance. He already got that. At this point it's ridiculous, and he should get away from this scene and stay away.
On June 06 2012 08:05 All.In wrote: I gained a lot of respect for your team through all this. Glad to see a team back someone for once. I really lost respect for EG when they cut that caster dude for something that really wasn't all that bad. You guys at least stood up for him and in the end it was him that left. GL
so naive.
its standard PR practice to announce that a player, or any employee for that matter, has left an organization on his/her own volition when in fact they were simply let go/fired. this is more than likely what happened here, and more than likely what happened with Destiny when "he decided to leave Quantic to not tarnish their reputation"
You're making this up as you go? We barely started contacting people for a third party review. Don't spout nonsense about how things really went when you have no idea.
Basing your opinion on the ones yelling loudest is very easy to do for most people, I did the same until a few hours ago when I decided to actually have an in-depth look into every single game. I checked out every single argument mentioned in the OP and I have to say, almost all of it is inconclusive. That aside, there were situations where he responded to drops and banshees in a way a non-hacker would (and could) never do for any reason I can imagine.
We humans (within good reason) regularly see what we want to, it's how human psychology works. I watched these replays hoping I would find incontrovertible evidence of his using maphack, I did not necessarily find that so I can't agree with most of the people here saying ''100% guilty!!''.
That said, from a realistic point of view I do unfortunately have to come to the conclusion that he is indeed maphacking. We're not just talking about his ''perfect'' scouting, always (correctly) scouting when it's close position and not scouting when it's cross. Not just his blind countering of Lucy's build in both early build orders and midgame army composition. Not just that in over half the situations he's responding to drops not yet in his sight. Not just his sieging at perfect time and position (I found Entombed Valley to be extremely damning, particularly the engagement(s) on the far east choke). If you add up everything, including the fact that he has a history of hacking, I can only call you steadfast if you do not come to the same conclusion.
I'd like to add that I do agree with the ''guilty until proven otherwise'' approach and in this case, I'd call him guilty. I understand certain people that want to refrain from making choices, considering this evidence to not be enough but if everyone were to have that attitude, nothing would get done in this world.
Sorry but this is the standard cheater behavior, I'm used to from a multiple times maphacker back in the old brood war days in the german scene (His main ID was Selector). At first you deny any cheating. If this isn't possible anymore you jump onto the pity train to get enough supporters, that your case is reconsidered. And sooner or later, we will have a 100% evidence and everyone who kept defending him feels like a fool (or might just be one). I have no Idea how people can try to blandish maphacking and defend it beyong every reason. The evidences are there (in the other thread), and they are very clear. So just accept it. A growing proportion of cheaters is a real threat to the growth and stability of esports. So we have to fight Hacks and Cheats as hard as we can!
On June 06 2012 08:58 Ewic wrote: It's times like this when I'm ashamed to be part of this community... Essentially witch-hunting. I'm really sad for Spades.
There is a huge difference between this and the witch hunting that went down on Orb and Destiny. I have not educated myself enough to know whetever Spades really did hack or not. But the way he's been handling it is definitely mysterious. No one who gets wrongly accused of cheating suddenly decides to leave their team a day after, before anyone has a chance to figure out what is going on. In fact, most people would be pissed and bring out legitimate reasons as to why it wasn't cheating. But he hasn't even done that. "lots of random things happen in TvT so thats why I decided to play massively different then what I'm used to, get an insane stroke of luck, and have the camera stuck at the same place for longer period of times, and then somehow get 3-4 vs Lucifron" is not a legitimate answer.
I'm not saying he's cheating. But if he isn't, he's doing a very good job at not addressing the issues. In fact he's probably done a lot worse than simply not saying anything.
On June 06 2012 08:58 Ewic wrote: It's times like this when I'm ashamed to be part of this community... Essentially witch-hunting. I'm really sad for Spades.
Why? Perhaps he may or may not have hacked, but all the replays analyzed and especially people even coming out and verifying his past shows HEAVILY that towards the way of him possibly map hacking. Things like this shouldn't be taken lightly if this were true that he did map hack he cheated in a show match, this isn't some random ladder game.
Not everything is THIS COMMUNITY SUCKS or I'M ASHAMED OF BEING APART OF THIS COMMUNITY, yes there are some stupid witch hunts that are uncalled for, but in this situation given the amount of proof and context that was given I'm glad we can stomp out hackers that ruin the spirit of competition.
This seems like an extreme move, if nothing else. I don't see why he should leave his team as I never really thought his individual actions cast aspersions on the team as a whole. I never really liked spades before, but I'm starting to empathize with him now. If he's innocent, GL to him and hope it all works out somehow. If he's guilty, good riddance, I suppose. All I know is that he beat some really good players at previous MLGs and there was no way he was hacking then (as I was standing behind him). If he was capable of that and still decided to cheat, I pity him even more.
I feel like he's just trying to be a martyr. Whether he's innocent or guilty he probably feels like his lackluster career is best ended in a way where he stands to gain some potential sympathy, rather than just being entirely forgotten as he otherwise would be.
On June 06 2012 04:57 OzkanTheFlip wrote: Spades, no1 wants you quit, worst case scenario is you made a mistake and hopefully admit to it and grow some balls your still going to do well.
I want him out. I'm tired of all this hacking. It's not even a question of a second chance. He already got that. At this point it's ridiculous, and he should get away from this scene and stay away.
On June 06 2012 09:06 TeeTS wrote: Sorry but this is the standard cheater behavior, I'm used to from a multiple times maphacker back in the old brood war days in the german scene (His main ID was Selector). At first you deny any cheating. If this isn't possible anymore you jump onto the pity train to get enough supporters, that your case is reconsidered. And sooner or later, we will have a 100% evidence and everyone who kept defending him feels like a fool (or might just be one). I have no Idea how people can try to blandish maphacking and defend it beyong every reason. The evidences are there (in the other thread), and they are very clear. So just accept it. A growing proportion of cheaters is a real threat to the growth and stability of esports. So we have to fight Hacks and Cheats as hard as we can!
Bullshit.
I got called a cheater a bunch in CounterStrike. None whatsoever.
My first word? Deny I cheated. Why? Because I didn't. But all the evidence against me showed I was hacking. Well no shit, who keeps records of players not hacking? But there it was, plain as day, replays of me hacking.
Oh look, how he knew exactly where you were.
Oh look, how he died on purpose because he knew he was being suspicious.
Oh look, how he can do a stupidly bold move and get away with it.
There's a technique called priming. If I say, go look for this right here, chances are you'll find this right there. But would you have otherwise? That's why you have unbiased, unopinionated juries. No rape victim in a rape case. That's why there's a judge to moderate the prosecution. So you don't have biased crap thrown around like it's the truth. Know the victim? Then it's your testimony on your life. Not scared of perjury? You should be. Evidence, not hearsay. And innocent until proven guilty. And if even one juror disagrees with a conviction, you start all fucking over again until it's unanimous.
This is ridiculous and you should be ashamed of yourselves.
On June 06 2012 09:15 1a wrote: this is sad, the sc2 community made a professional quit their job just because of a couple replays without even good evidence.
Good riddance i still cant imagine why this guy has anyone defending him since hes been caught map hacking before in BW and now with the latest episode... he should be blacklisted from everything related to the pro scene imo...
People defending him do you actually play the game? When was the last time you watched your own replay? sure everybody's play is different but no everyone's play is as blatantly dodgy as Spade's + Him cheating in the past does not help him defend his case. I hope the what you people call "mob justice" ruins this guy, seeing theres nothing else that actually deals with hackers at the moment.
Guys you gotta understand there's different types of hackers out there, there's people (newbs) that hack somewhere in their lower leagues or team games or whatever they don't actually realize how much the game means to some people or of the size of the community nor they care about esports in general.
Then every once in awhile you get an avg players who is obviously lacking in some aspects of their play yet their ambition for fame far surpasses what they are willing to put in, since they ok players already its alot easier for them to hide their hacks (Spades not doing a good job at it too LOL)
Dude chose the perfect Nickname, seems he loves to dig his own graves...
On June 06 2012 09:06 TeeTS wrote: Sorry but this is the standard cheater behavior, I'm used to from a multiple times maphacker back in the old brood war days in the german scene (His main ID was Selector). At first you deny any cheating. If this isn't possible anymore you jump onto the pity train to get enough supporters, that your case is reconsidered. And sooner or later, we will have a 100% evidence and everyone who kept defending him feels like a fool (or might just be one). I have no Idea how people can try to blandish maphacking and defend it beyong every reason. The evidences are there (in the other thread), and they are very clear. So just accept it. A growing proportion of cheaters is a real threat to the growth and stability of esports. So we have to fight Hacks and Cheats as hard as we can!
Bullshit.
I got called a cheater a bunch in CounterStrike. None whatsoever.
My first word? Deny I cheated. Why? Because I didn't. But all the evidence against me showed I was hacking. Well no shit, who keeps records of players not hacking? But there it was, plain as day, replays of me hacking.
Oh look, how he knew exactly where you were.
Oh look, how he died on purpose because he knew he was being suspicious.
Oh look, how he can do a stupidly bold move and get away with it.
There's a technique called priming. If I say, go look for this right here, chances are you'll find this right there. But would you have otherwise? That's why you have unbiased, unopinionated juries. No rape victim in a rape case. That's why there's a judge to moderate the prosecution. So you don't have biased crap thrown around like it's the truth. Know the victim? Then it's your testimony on your life. Not scared of perjury? You should be. Evidence, not hearsay. And innocent until proven guilty. And if even one juror disagrees with a conviction, you start all fucking over again until it's unanimous.
This is ridiculous and you should be ashamed of yourselves.
Ashamed of what? Did you watch the replays? If something is suspicious it needs to be brought up. Something common with a lot of map hackers is the camera locks when he's looking into the fog of war. Compare it to that specific game to a random ladder map and you can see huge differences in game play.
I'm not gonna say if he's guilty or not, but a lot of the evidence provided against him is pretty huge.
On June 06 2012 09:15 1a wrote: this is sad, the sc2 community made a professional quit their job just because of a couple replays without even good evidence.
i've had it with these posts.
Why because people have a difference of opinion to you? Some people believed he was hacking others did not.
Back on topic of this thread. Good luck to all of those involved shame that this partnership had to end this way.
On June 06 2012 09:15 1a wrote: this is sad, the sc2 community made a professional quit their job just because of a couple replays without even good evidence.
i've had it with these posts.
Why because people have a difference of opinion to you? Some people believed he was hacking others did not.
Back on topic of this thread. Good luck to all of those involved shame that this partnership had to end this way.
I'm sick of these posts, because they're always some sort of "I'm tired of this community" posts. It's good to have different opinions, but at least give reasons why instead of just saying this community sucks.
"It's unlikely that I'll receive invites to major tournaments or showmatches as long as this matter is unresolved and I don't see any way for this to be resolved."
I read that as: "There's no way I'll ever admit i'm guilty and there's no way anyone will ever prove me innocent because I'm guilty.. therefore this will never get resolved."
I'm just going to repost this from the other page:
I really find Spades posts incredibly self-defeatist. Instead of trying to be positive and forgive and forget as to be the bigger man if he did not hack, he keeps making it seem as if this has done irreversible damage because of these simple accusations. Come on, people don't lose their entire careers by mudslinging without any decent proof. That is what makes Spades seem incredibly suspicious to me, especially because he has been caught maphacking before. Instead of trying to be as upfront about it as possible, and explain every single accusation thrown at him right back in the accuser's face, he is trying to hide and be as isolated as possible from the situation. After all, if he did not hack and is not a hacker, then wouldn't someone such as a PROGAMER have the balls to cement a defense stronger than what any no namer - especially one with just one post- has to say? After all, he has all the resources(his replays). Wouldn't it give him good publicity to do so? Wouldn't it show his sponsors that he is able to stand up for himself and control situations regarding him? Wouldn't it gain some admiration and fans? The fact that he is trying to garner empathy in such a way that tries to completely ignore the accusations made at him raises some eyebrows.The camera locks still have not been answered directly by him with clarity. His claims are all extremely vague and dodge the subject, claiming "chance", "luck", and "randomness" as his only solid defenses.
I've yet to see the nay sayers provide a plausible explanation for the fog of war discrepancies between the showmatch games and random ladder games. Even the scouting worker. Blisse and others, please explain how its plausible that Spades would move his scouting worker around by the minimap only in the showmatch games but not in his ladder games.
On June 06 2012 09:32 quickclickz wrote: "It's unlikely that I'll receive invites to major tournaments or showmatches as long as this matter is unresolved and I don't see any way for this to be resolved."
I read that as: "There's no way I'll ever admit i'm guilty and there's no way anyone will ever prove me innocent because I'm guilty.. therefore this will never get resolved."
You should stick to the evidence in the replays rather than what Spades says. You have no reason to interpret his words that way rather than "I know I'm innocent but the community will never be convinced otherwise."
On June 06 2012 09:35 EienShinwa wrote: I'm just going to repost this from the other page:
I really find Spades posts incredibly self-defeatist. Instead of trying to be positive and forgive and forget as to be the bigger man if he did not hack, he keeps making it seem as if this has done irreversible damage because of these simple accusations. Come on, people don't lose their entire careers by mudslinging without any decent proof. That is what makes Spades seem incredibly suspicious to me, especially because he has been caught maphacking before. Instead of trying to be as upfront about it as possible, and explain every single accusation thrown at him right back in the accuser's face, he is trying to hide and be as isolated as possible from the situation. After all, if he did not hack and is not a hacker, then wouldn't someone such as a PROGAMER have the balls to cement a defense stronger than what any no namer - especially one with just one post- has to say? After all, he has all the resources(his replays). Wouldn't it give him good publicity to do so? Wouldn't it show his sponsors that he is able to stand up for himself and control situations regarding him? Wouldn't it gain some admiration and fans? The fact that he is trying to garner empathy in such a way that tries to completely ignore the accusations made at him raises some eyebrows.The camera locks still have not been answered directly by him with clarity. His claims are all extremely vague and dodge the subject, claiming "chance", "luck", and "randomness" as his only solid defenses.
Yeah pretty much agree with this.
If you didn't hack stop victimizing yourself and taking these allegations so seriously. If you decided to hack man the fuck up and just say it.
Frankly the fact that he hasn't really made the right move for either scenario makes me believe he's doing the latter (and should say it).
On June 06 2012 04:59 Mrvoodoochild1 wrote: People who are innocent leave their teams right? O no, they don't. This guy is completely clueless, EVERYTHING he does makes him seem more guilty
Considering how huge the TL community is and the amount of people that defend Spades, makes me wonder how many hackers have TL accounts and are regular posters, it would be a lie to say theres none.
Just to be a devil's advocate, this might actually be the rection of someone
1. who's been through this shitstorm before 2. wants to avoid it.
I mean, if he's still scarred from before, I'd think he'd want to avoid the public eye. Makes sense no?
Of course, we could also believe that he was being non self-preserving, kind, thoughtful and decided to leave the team to protect their image rather than run to them for protection unlike the rest of us peons would have been in a similar situation.
On June 06 2012 09:35 Doodsmack wrote: I've yet to see the nay sayers provide a plausible explanation for the fog of war discrepancies between the showmatch games and random ladder games. Even the scouting worker. Blisse and others, please explain how its plausible that Spades would move his scouting worker around by the minimap only in the showmatch games but not in his ladder games.
Agree with 100% I'd like to know what are people's explanations for this.
On June 06 2012 09:44 Chunhyang wrote: Just to be a devil's advocate, this might actually be the rection of someone
1. who's been through this shitstorm before 2. wants to avoid it.
I mean, if he's still scarred from before, I'd think he'd want to avoid the public eye. Makes sense no?
Of course, we could also believe that he was being non self-preserving, kind, thoughtful and decided to leave the team to protect their image rather than run to them for protection unlike the rest of us peons would have been in a similar situation.
I think it could easily be a reaction to previous situations he has put himself in, but he handled those very poorly as well from what people have said. It is almost the boy who cried wolf. He claimed for years that he wasn't a hacker and then finally admitted it when it was convient for himself. It makes it very difficult to believe him this time.
If you hacked, just admit it. The community will eventually forgive you, you are not the first one, so trying to be a martyr is just a bad idea. TT1 was a hacker once and he sucks it up, and life still going on damn ok with him. Well, hes into poker now but you get the point. Everyone can make mistake.
On June 06 2012 09:50 Caphe wrote: If you hacked, just admit it. The community will eventually forgive you, you are not the first one, so trying to be a martyr is just a bad idea. TT1 was a hacker once and he sucks it up, and life still going on damn ok with him. Well, hes into poker now but you get the point. Everyone can make mistake.
If he did hack this time, it would be his 2nd. Pretty inexcusable I think.
Spades backing out of WW is practically an admission of guilt. Whether he hacked or not, he seems to be taking all the ownership of the guilty verdict. Seems rather ridiculous if he wasn't guilty.
vVv is an entirely different team. WW's only player was Spades. vVv has been around for a long time now and has way more then only one player. Though admittedly I don't know any of them lol.
On June 06 2012 10:04 DYEAlabaster wrote: Spades backing out of WW is practically an admission of guilt. Whether he hacked or not, he seems to be taking all the ownership of the guilty verdict. Seems rather ridiculous if he wasn't guilty.
Or maybe he was already at a point where he was doubting himself and his ability to live his dream and make it worthwhile and this latest witch hunt is the straw the broke the camel's back and pushed him into giving up. Maybe he just doesn't take it as seriously as a lot of the non-players in the community seem to. I know that if I was in his situation and I didn't cheat but the community thought I did I'd just fall back on my day job and say fuck it rather than deal with the stress and aggrevation of putting up with people that accused me of stuff.
I like StarCraft and I'm all about protecting it's integrity in a competive environment but at the end of the day it's really not THAT serious. So lets say his StarCraft career is over. Now he goes and does something else in the world and a community of people that no longer would have any relevance to him thinks he's a scumbag, that's really not so bad and it touches on my point about this whole "coward's way out" and "man up" stuff being superfluous and way out of place.
If it was someone like say Grubby (<3 Grubby) and eSports was the entire basis of their career and focus of their professional life for their entire adulthood it would be different and it would matter more and I'd be a little angry about the witch hunt, but in all honest I'd be surprised if Spades himself gives a fuck in a month or two.
People need to stop and think for a second before saying that leaving WW is a sign of guilt. wtf...
In no way it is admission of guild, and it is the right decision whether he cheated or not. His name is ruined and he will damage the team by staying there, thus he leaves. Is it really that hard to connect the dots yourself, or is it just fun for you guys to yell "omfg he took a breath, another sign that he cheated!"
On June 06 2012 10:36 nkr wrote: I think he feels guilty, and wants to save WW from the damage this will cause.
Just what it seems like to me.
The damage is already caused. Leaving WW was a good choice because there are so many doubts out there now that no one will believe it even if an "official source" comes out saying he is innocent. This community can be opinionated, which is a good thing in most cases. But for this one, some are willing to believe he is a hacker even though nothing has been proven. They've made up their minds already. A bad image is out there and that will be extremely hard to get rid of.
On June 06 2012 10:35 iokke wrote: People need to stop and think for a second before saying that leaving WW is a sign of guilt. wtf...
In no way it is admission of guild, and it is the right decision whether he cheated or not. His name is ruined and he will damage the team by staying there, thus he leaves. Is it really that hard to connect the dots yourself, or is it just fun for you guys to yell "omfg he took a breath, another sign that he cheated!"
Anyone who be wrongly accused of cheating would have the trust of his team. Since he doesn't, it's clear that even his team doubts him and will not stand behind him.
That much should be obvious too? Or is it fun to yell "no guys you're all wrong this means nothing"?
This doesn't make sense to me. Either deny it (wont solve the issue but if the accusation truly is false this is your only option), or admit to it (owning up to puts the issue to rest and people respect you for it. life goes on).
On June 06 2012 05:43 Comogury wrote: It's very depressing to know that most people here were expecting some kind of confession. What's the point in confessing when you've already ran him out of town? If he is innocent, it just makes him feel even worse about himself. If he's guilty, so what? He's already fucking out, leave him the fuck alone.
Because this sort of thing needs to be addressed, often.
This incident should not be remembered as a "witchhunt." It should be remembered as something the community ought to do, and often.
Until tournament administrators get their shit together in that regard, the community is the only authority. The fact that so many pros, who hold the epitome of qualifications in this sort of thing, contributed to the discussion is proof that this was a good thing for esports.
people act like they are more interested in 'cleansing the scene of its impurities' when really they are more interested in sitting back with popcorn as a person gets stoned or burned at the stake. the fact that we can do so now in like a single day is just even more satisfying, i'm sure.
i don't doubt that he's guilty, but a bunch of random people parading around acting like their voice is law should not be enough to brand "HACKER" on someone's face for the rest of their life.
honestly, if people were more concerned with the issue at hand rather than watching a person get humiliated out of the scene, they would have contacted someone who could actually do something about it, not spreading the word like wildfire. even if the person's intentions were good, they clearly found it more effective to get the community to hate on spades before even letting him know that it was coming.
Sad to hear you had to do this because of another lynch mob witch hunt. Good luck to you Spades, hope you do well in Anaheim whether or not you cheated.
I wish this could have been resolved. I don't really know what to say here, other than that I wish all of pro-gaming and esports the best of luck. If only these events hadn't taken place ;_;
On June 06 2012 12:15 Zenislev wrote: Sad to hear you had to do this because of another lynch mob witch hunt. Good luck to you Spades, hope you do well in Anaheim whether or not you cheated.
If the hypothetical possibility that he hacked is true, why would you wish him to do well in a tournament of his peers who no longer respect him? Just curious of why you say that. Not trying to pick a fight.
what i dont understand is, why dont you just download the hacks and try them out? thay way you will understand how they work. would that not be much easyer?
On June 06 2012 12:15 Zenislev wrote: Sad to hear you had to do this because of another lynch mob witch hunt. Good luck to you Spades, hope you do well in Anaheim whether or not you cheated.
If the hypothetical possibility that he hacked is true, why would you wish him to do well in a tournament of his peers who no longer respect him? Just curious of why you say that. Not trying to pick a fight.
In my opinion he was condemned before the people who could have made more rational and informed decisions about his guilt (Blizzard, MLG, his team...) had a chance to react. I feel like even if he hacked he's paid for his crimes; the mob can be satisfied that his reputation is trashed no matter what. If he has the determination to try to prove everyone wrong in spite of everything, I respect that.
On June 06 2012 09:50 Caphe wrote: If you hacked, just admit it. The community will eventually forgive you, you are not the first one, so trying to be a martyr is just a bad idea. TT1 was a hacker once and he sucks it up, and life still going on damn ok with him. Well, hes into poker now but you get the point. Everyone can make mistake.
Wow this community is fucking disgusting I feel bad for being a starcraft fan. Forums are stupid they shouldn't be taken seriously. "oh hey lets see if I can get someone fired or quit!" quick everyone let's ruin someones life on a hunch or based on something he did I'n the past!! We don't have to worry about it!'were anonymous fucking cowards!
It's pretty sad that TL has become a place where the mob mentality reigns supreme and fucks up people's lives. Doesn't matter if he was guilty or not now, cause if it turns out he was innocent you all just fucked his life up and barred him from doing something he probably loves to do.
On June 06 2012 17:02 Femari wrote: It's pretty sad that TL has become a place where the mob mentality reigns supreme and fucks up people's lives. Doesn't matter if he was guilty or not now, cause if it turns out he was innocent you all just fucked his life up and barred him from doing something he probably loves to do.
It seems he wasn't that attached to it. If you loved doing something (your passion, and your job) and some random people on forums said you cheated at it and you knew it was false, would you just stop doing it? May I remind you that it was only a fucking TL thread, it's not a "mob", it doesn't "reign supreme" anywhere. Quit using big words for small things. He should have kept going honestly, even if he was guilty. He should have been prepared for consequences in this case, and in the case he was innocent, people wouldn't have found anything anyway... Worst choice is to quit (but obviously he was fired, he did not retire from his own, who are we kidding...), it's either admitting you're a cheater, or you're a wuss.
On June 06 2012 17:02 Femari wrote: It's pretty sad that TL has become a place where the mob mentality reigns supreme and fucks up people's lives. Doesn't matter if he was guilty or not now, cause if it turns out he was innocent you all just fucked his life up and barred him from doing something he probably loves to do.
Please explain how the 'damage' that has been done to his reputation would not immediately be undone and all condemnation of him would dissipate if it somehow 'turns out that he was innocent' as you suggest. I don't get it when people say all the forum posts opinion on here is somehow irreparable damage.
On June 06 2012 17:02 Femari wrote: It's pretty sad that TL has become a place where the mob mentality reigns supreme and fucks up people's lives. Doesn't matter if he was guilty or not now, cause if it turns out he was innocent you all just fucked his life up and barred him from doing something he probably loves to do.
If you bothered to study the evidence presented by Catz/Illusion/Drewbie/TT1 in its entirety (ie not watching 2 replays with preconcieved ideas) then you would realise that the rational viewpoint is that he is guilty. There is undisputable evidence of camera locking which proves beyond any doubt that he is using a maphack.
The "replay bugs" that people claim to be in play here do not work 100% of the time in a 7 game sample. The reason so many people are still on the fence about it is that they simply haven't looked at enough of the evidence. Then these people claim that "there is no concrete evidence". Yeah there is buddy, you just haven't bothered educating yourself on the matter. Take a look at the reddit thread and view ALL the evidence there before you start insulting the people that actually did their homework.
As for martyring one self in this way it's exactly the same kind of thing he did when he got caught back in the brood war days. He's basically hoping on getting emotional support from uninformed fans.
On June 06 2012 17:02 Femari wrote: It's pretty sad that TL has become a place where the mob mentality reigns supreme and fucks up people's lives. Doesn't matter if he was guilty or not now, cause if it turns out he was innocent you all just fucked his life up and barred him from doing something he probably loves to do.
It seems he wasn't that attached to it. If you loved doing something (your passion, and your job) and some random people on forums said you cheated at it and you knew it was false, would you just stop doing it? May I remind you that it was only a fucking TL thread, it's not a "mob", it doesn't "reign supreme" anywhere. Quit using big words for small things. He should have kept going honestly, even if he was guilty. He should have been prepared for consequences in this case, and in the case he was innocent, people wouldn't have found anything anyway... Worst choice is to quit (but obviously he was fired, he did not retire from his own, who are we kidding...), it's either admitting you're a cheater, or you're a wuss.
Hahaha not a mob? Please. Go back to the Destiny thread and tell me TL has not become a mob waiting for their next lynch.
^^^ The above is just people trying to distance themselves from the "mob mentality" because they automatically think themselves superiour. It doesn't matter what the topic, the issue, or the matter at hand is at all -- as long as they think the majority supports A, they are going to vehemently argue for B until they're out of breath.
Spades is a cool name though, shame that in 2 days after an accusation of hacking it ruined all his career. At least it will show that hacking in pro scene is instantly taken care of if not by blizzard or the match organisers, then at least by the community with their witch hunting.
On June 06 2012 17:02 Femari wrote: It's pretty sad that TL has become a place where the mob mentality reigns supreme and fucks up people's lives. Doesn't matter if he was guilty or not now, cause if it turns out he was innocent you all just fucked his life up and barred him from doing something he probably loves to do.
Please explain how the 'damage' that has been done to his reputation would not immediately be undone and all condemnation of him would dissipate if it somehow 'turns out that he was innocent' as you suggest. I don't get it when people say all the forum posts opinion on here is somehow irreparable damage.
Because you enjoy petting your ego at the expense of others too much. Because there will never be evidence that entirely proves his innocent. It will always be "so maybe he didn't hack in that game". Because all the mentally challenged people in this forum jump to conclusions based on nothing.
I have no idea what this guy did and what he didn't, despite reading into some of the threads, like most of you. But that doesn't seem to matter.
I couldn't care less about Spades, whatever he did, he's a little irrelevant kid. But you are bringing shame to the community. So disappointing, be it not the first time that this happens.
On June 06 2012 17:02 Femari wrote: It's pretty sad that TL has become a place where the mob mentality reigns supreme and fucks up people's lives. Doesn't matter if he was guilty or not now, cause if it turns out he was innocent you all just fucked his life up and barred him from doing something he probably loves to do.
It seems he wasn't that attached to it. If you loved doing something (your passion, and your job) and some random people on forums said you cheated at it and you knew it was false, would you just stop doing it? May I remind you that it was only a fucking TL thread, it's not a "mob", it doesn't "reign supreme" anywhere. Quit using big words for small things. He should have kept going honestly, even if he was guilty. He should have been prepared for consequences in this case, and in the case he was innocent, people wouldn't have found anything anyway... Worst choice is to quit (but obviously he was fired, he did not retire from his own, who are we kidding...), it's either admitting you're a cheater, or you're a wuss.
Hahaha not a mob? Please. Go back to the Destiny thread and tell me TL has not become a mob waiting for their next lynch.
Well apparently Destiny survived. The "lynching" wasn't that effective.
On June 06 2012 17:21 Jinsho wrote: ^^^ The above is just people trying to distance themselves from the "mob mentality" because they automatically think themselves superiour. It doesn't matter what the topic, the issue, or the matter at hand is at all -- as long as they think the majority supports A, they are going to vehemently argue for B until they're out of breath.
maybe... you are the mob mentality....??
I don't think I'm superior. What I do think is that trying to end someone's career after one day of looking at evidence is absolutely stupid.
If we did this crap in the real world, three lacrosse players would be wrongfully in jail.
On June 06 2012 17:02 Femari wrote: It's pretty sad that TL has become a place where the mob mentality reigns supreme and fucks up people's lives. Doesn't matter if he was guilty or not now, cause if it turns out he was innocent you all just fucked his life up and barred him from doing something he probably loves to do.
Please explain how the 'damage' that has been done to his reputation would not immediately be undone and all condemnation of him would dissipate if it somehow 'turns out that he was innocent' as you suggest. I don't get it when people say all the forum posts opinion on here is somehow irreparable damage.
Because you enjoy petting your ego at the expense of others too much. Because there will never be evidence that entirely proves his innocent. It will always be "so maybe he didn't hack in that game". Because all the mentally challenged people in this forum jump to conclusions based on nothing.
I have no idea what this guy did and what he didn't, despite reading into some of the threads, like most of you. But that doesn't seem to matter.
I couldn't care less about Spades, whatever he did, he's a little irrelevant kid. But you are bringing shame to the community. So disappointing, be it not the first time that this happens.
And with you, I mean all of you
Except you "read into some of the threads". I like many others opened dozens of replays, watched them and saw for myself. If you want to prove his innocence, there is still time, Spades is still an SC2 player, go open these replays and share with us your analysis.
On June 06 2012 17:21 Jinsho wrote: ^^^ The above is just people trying to distance themselves from the "mob mentality" because they automatically think themselves superiour. It doesn't matter what the topic, the issue, or the matter at hand is at all -- as long as they think the majority supports A, they are going to vehemently argue for B until they're out of breath.
maybe... you are the mob mentality....??
I don't think I'm superior. What I do think is that trying to end someone's career after one day of looking at evidence is absolutely stupid.
If we did this crap in the real world, three lacrosse players would be wrongfully in jail.
He just ended his own career. No one has forced him into doing this. If he was truly innocent then he would be able to continue.
It's pretty sad to see all these people condemning TL to a mad witch-hunt mob, as if we accuse people of hacking several times a week, and ruin peoples' careers left and right, out of nowhere. Get off your fucking high horses. To Spades, not really surprised at this. Good luck with whatever it is you choose to pursue anyway.
On June 06 2012 17:02 Femari wrote: It's pretty sad that TL has become a place where the mob mentality reigns supreme and fucks up people's lives. Doesn't matter if he was guilty or not now, cause if it turns out he was innocent you all just fucked his life up and barred him from doing something he probably loves to do.
It seems he wasn't that attached to it. If you loved doing something (your passion, and your job) and some random people on forums said you cheated at it and you knew it was false, would you just stop doing it? May I remind you that it was only a fucking TL thread, it's not a "mob", it doesn't "reign supreme" anywhere. Quit using big words for small things. He should have kept going honestly, even if he was guilty. He should have been prepared for consequences in this case, and in the case he was innocent, people wouldn't have found anything anyway... Worst choice is to quit (but obviously he was fired, he did not retire from his own, who are we kidding...), it's either admitting you're a cheater, or you're a wuss.
Hahaha not a mob? Please. Go back to the Destiny thread and tell me TL has not become a mob waiting for their next lynch.
Well apparently Destiny survived. The "lynching" wasn't that effective.
Nevertheless Destiny took a hit to his career, with the community forcing the hand Quantic and Destiny had to part ways. Are you saying it was not effective because Destiny found himself on a team again? Did you not factor the huge presence Destiny has within our community? Spades' presence in the community is far lesser than Destiny's and therefore he will be hit A LOT harder. People like Destiny and orb who have left an huge and mostly positive impact on our community as opposed to Spades and can recover from these "lynchings"
On June 06 2012 17:02 Femari wrote: It's pretty sad that TL has become a place where the mob mentality reigns supreme and fucks up people's lives. Doesn't matter if he was guilty or not now, cause if it turns out he was innocent you all just fucked his life up and barred him from doing something he probably loves to do.
It seems he wasn't that attached to it. If you loved doing something (your passion, and your job) and some random people on forums said you cheated at it and you knew it was false, would you just stop doing it? May I remind you that it was only a fucking TL thread, it's not a "mob", it doesn't "reign supreme" anywhere. Quit using big words for small things. He should have kept going honestly, even if he was guilty. He should have been prepared for consequences in this case, and in the case he was innocent, people wouldn't have found anything anyway... Worst choice is to quit (but obviously he was fired, he did not retire from his own, who are we kidding...), it's either admitting you're a cheater, or you're a wuss.
Hahaha not a mob? Please. Go back to the Destiny thread and tell me TL has not become a mob waiting for their next lynch.
Well apparently Destiny survived. The "lynching" wasn't that effective.
Nevertheless Destiny took a hit to his career, with the community forcing the hand Quantic and Destiny had to part ways. Are you saying it was not effective because Destiny found himself on a team again? Did you not factor the huge presence Destiny has within our community? Spades' presence in the community is far lesser than Destiny's and therefore he will be hit A LOT harder. People like Destiny and orb who have left an huge and mostly positive impact on our community as opposed to Spades and can recover from these "lynchings"
Just wanted to point out that "lynching" is a bit strong for 2 miserable threads on TL and Reddit. I didn't support (and didn't care for) what happened to Destiny. Btw I wish people would stop comparing maphackers to Destiny and orb. Cheating hurts our game way more than a little BM on a game chat in my opinion. While Destiny and orb's cases were a bit ridiculous, Spades' is completely justified for me. No mercy for hackers...
On June 06 2012 17:02 Femari wrote: It's pretty sad that TL has become a place where the mob mentality reigns supreme and fucks up people's lives. Doesn't matter if he was guilty or not now, cause if it turns out he was innocent you all just fucked his life up and barred him from doing something he probably loves to do.
The evidence is overwhelming and any progamer that resorts to cheating has no right to continue making a living from it. A maphacker deserves no sympathy.
On June 06 2012 17:46 Prevolved wrote: It's pretty sad to see all these people condemning TL to a mad witch-hunt mob, as if we accuse people of hacking several times a week,
In the past 10 days we've accused several people in the GM maphackers thread, HRGZack, Spades obviously. Not saying they didn't hack but we are accusing people several times a week now.
and ruin peoples' careers left and right
There have been plenty of these instances--Naniwa's probe rush, Orb, Destiny, Katu when he said Dragon stream cheated before, MaximusBlack a while ago... Maybe not all of them have had their careers ruined per se but some have had them damaged in to some extent due to this uncontrolled mob vigilantism. Maybe they deserved reprimand, but is that for a mob to decide? I think this thread is a good read on mob mentality http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=335636
On June 06 2012 17:21 Jinsho wrote: ^^^ The above is just people trying to distance themselves from the "mob mentality" because they automatically think themselves superiour. It doesn't matter what the topic, the issue, or the matter at hand is at all -- as long as they think the majority supports A, they are going to vehemently argue for B until they're out of breath.
maybe... you are the mob mentality....??
If we did this crap in the real world, three lacrosse players would be wrongfully in jail.
Lol nice try. First of all, there was real fallout from that. The coach had to resign and never got rehired. Second, that took months to figure out. If you want to show why all the evidence that has built up against spades is untrue, go right ahead. Spades could try to do that too. He never has outside of one REALLY halfhearted attempt.
On June 06 2012 17:21 Jinsho wrote: ^^^ The above is just people trying to distance themselves from the "mob mentality" because they automatically think themselves superiour. It doesn't matter what the topic, the issue, or the matter at hand is at all -- as long as they think the majority supports A, they are going to vehemently argue for B until they're out of breath.
maybe... you are the mob mentality....??
If we did this crap in the real world, three lacrosse players would be wrongfully in jail.
Lol nice try. First of all, there was real fallout from that. The coach had to resign and never got rehired. Second, that took months to figure out. If you want to show why all the evidence that has built up against spades is untrue, go right ahead. Spades could try to do that too. He never has outside of one REALLY halfhearted attempt.
I'm not saying he's innocent. I'm saying don't condemn people in one day.
On June 06 2012 17:21 Jinsho wrote: ^^^ The above is just people trying to distance themselves from the "mob mentality" because they automatically think themselves superiour. It doesn't matter what the topic, the issue, or the matter at hand is at all -- as long as they think the majority supports A, they are going to vehemently argue for B until they're out of breath.
maybe... you are the mob mentality....??
If we did this crap in the real world, three lacrosse players would be wrongfully in jail.
Lol nice try. First of all, there was real fallout from that. The coach had to resign and never got rehired. Second, that took months to figure out. If you want to show why all the evidence that has built up against spades is untrue, go right ahead. Spades could try to do that too. He never has outside of one REALLY halfhearted attempt.
I'm not saying he's innocent. I'm saying don't condemn people in one day.
Spades condemned himself in one day... he's the one who retired...
On June 06 2012 17:21 Jinsho wrote: ^^^ The above is just people trying to distance themselves from the "mob mentality" because they automatically think themselves superiour. It doesn't matter what the topic, the issue, or the matter at hand is at all -- as long as they think the majority supports A, they are going to vehemently argue for B until they're out of breath.
maybe... you are the mob mentality....??
I don't think I'm superior. What I do think is that trying to end someone's career after one day of looking at evidence is absolutely stupid.
If we did this crap in the real world, three lacrosse players would be wrongfully in jail.
He just ended his own career. No one has forced him into doing this. If he was truly innocent then he would be able to continue.
On June 06 2012 17:21 Jinsho wrote: ^^^ The above is just people trying to distance themselves from the "mob mentality" because they automatically think themselves superiour. It doesn't matter what the topic, the issue, or the matter at hand is at all -- as long as they think the majority supports A, they are going to vehemently argue for B until they're out of breath.
maybe... you are the mob mentality....??
If we did this crap in the real world, three lacrosse players would be wrongfully in jail.
Lol nice try. First of all, there was real fallout from that. The coach had to resign and never got rehired. Second, that took months to figure out. If you want to show why all the evidence that has built up against spades is untrue, go right ahead. Spades could try to do that too. He never has outside of one REALLY halfhearted attempt.
I'm not saying he's innocent. I'm saying don't condemn people in one day.
Spades condemned himself in one day... he's the one who retired...
Actually if you read the post you'd see that he just stepped down from the team and is still playing.
On June 06 2012 17:21 Jinsho wrote: ^^^ The above is just people trying to distance themselves from the "mob mentality" because they automatically think themselves superiour. It doesn't matter what the topic, the issue, or the matter at hand is at all -- as long as they think the majority supports A, they are going to vehemently argue for B until they're out of breath.
maybe... you are the mob mentality....??
If we did this crap in the real world, three lacrosse players would be wrongfully in jail.
Lol nice try. First of all, there was real fallout from that. The coach had to resign and never got rehired. Second, that took months to figure out. If you want to show why all the evidence that has built up against spades is untrue, go right ahead. Spades could try to do that too. He never has outside of one REALLY halfhearted attempt.
I'm not saying he's innocent. I'm saying don't condemn people in one day.
Spades condemned himself in one day... he's the one who retired...
Actually if you read the post you'd see that he just stepped down from the team and is still playing.
Sorry from "retire from the team" and "unlikely to be invited to major tournaments and showmatches" I thought he meant retiring for good. I'm still not entirely sure how you are so certain he's still playing.
On June 06 2012 17:21 Jinsho wrote: ^^^ The above is just people trying to distance themselves from the "mob mentality" because they automatically think themselves superiour. It doesn't matter what the topic, the issue, or the matter at hand is at all -- as long as they think the majority supports A, they are going to vehemently argue for B until they're out of breath.
maybe... you are the mob mentality....??
If we did this crap in the real world, three lacrosse players would be wrongfully in jail.
Lol nice try. First of all, there was real fallout from that. The coach had to resign and never got rehired. Second, that took months to figure out. If you want to show why all the evidence that has built up against spades is untrue, go right ahead. Spades could try to do that too. He never has outside of one REALLY halfhearted attempt.
I'm not saying he's innocent. I'm saying don't condemn people in one day.
Spades condemned himself in one day... he's the one who retired...
Actually if you read the post you'd see that he just stepped down from the team and is still playing.
Sorry from "retire from the team" and "unlikely to be invited to major tournaments and showmatches" I thought he meant retiring for good. I'm still not entirely sure how you are so certain he's still playing.
He said this in the other thread:
I haven't retired. I just left my team, to avoid public backlash upon Western Wolves.
So much drama over a player that would never get anywhere in the sc2 scene even with hacks... Its not even that people got so riled up and angry because they feared for the scenes 'integrity' This fucked up, redditized community just enjoys fucking with peoples lives at this point. Pathetic scum.
On June 06 2012 04:57 OzkanTheFlip wrote: Spades, no1 wants you quit, worst case scenario is you made a mistake and hopefully admit to it and grow some balls your still going to do well.
Don't speak for people. I want him to quit. If it's somehow true that he didn't hack, it would be a tragedy. But this has gotten to a stage of beyond reasonable doubt, he's guilty.
I won't discus the accusations themselves here, this is not the place or time.
Regardless of whether I'm found “innocent” or “guilty” in the public eye, my reputation as a pro gamer is damaged severely. It's unlikely that I'll receive invites to major tournaments or showmatches as long as this matter is unresolved and I don't see any way for this to be resolved. I feel that staying with the Western Wolves would put the team in a negative light, especially considering how well the team has treated me, I would hate to negatively represent the WW team.
It's been a short stay, but one I thoroughly enjoyed. It's been great to have the opportunity to play for the WW team and I regret it coming to an end the way it is.
Why is everyone saying Spades leaving WW is evidence of his guilt?? I probably would have made the same choice in his position even if totally innocent. No reason to make your team go down with you if it's clear you're doomed regardless of your innocence.
On June 06 2012 19:10 Zenislev wrote: Why is everyone saying Spades leaving WW is evidence of his guilt?? I probably would have made the same choice in his position even if totally innocent. No reason to make your team go down with you if it's clear you're doomed regardless of your innocence.
This. All this is is a massively over-exaggerated witch hunt. It's quite depressing to read, but that's what you get when you see mass nerd rage on a internet forum. No-one can prove anything, every argument against him, there is a decent argument for him.
On June 06 2012 19:22 MildSeven wrote: went through Cat'z tortorously long and head ache inducing proofs against Spades, it's clear that Spades hack, like a politician, he retires.
On June 06 2012 19:57 The_Dark wrote: From Spades to Clubbed , I dont know if this can be 3rd time lucky for the career , think its been straight flushed down the toilet now.
On June 06 2012 19:22 MildSeven wrote: went through Cat'z tortorously long and head ache inducing proofs against Spades, it's clear that Spades hack, like a politician, he retires.
True scumbag
I dont get it, should he have not retired?
If he didn't do anything wrong he should have told everyone to fuck off and let his team determine if he was a liability or not. Think of it this way, SC2 is his career. Imagine if your employer came up to you and said your coworker accused you of something you didn't do and that something was an offense that would result in your termination were you to be found guilty. Would you just throw in the towel and not try to defend yourself? Are you going to tell your boss that there's no point in defending yourself because they wont believe you anyways? I personally would be pissed. I'd be giving my side of the story and showing passion because someone is falsely accusing me of something I didn't do and they were trying to take my career from me.
If i did, however, commit whatever offense I was accused of and there was proof of it I'd prefer to resign on my own accord rather than having been fired. Once Spades left WW they had no reason to investigate for themselves.
It seems like leaving WW was self preservation rather than saving face of his team. I don't think anyone in their right mind would blame the team for one of their players hacking assuming they had no prior knowledge of it.
I'm happy that he got kicked out of his team ( because let's be hones, 99% of the time that a player " leaves" his team is because he got kicked). We don't need this kind of players in our community. Also, let's not call him hacker because he isnt one. HE IS A CHEATER. It's completly different.
I just want to hear his honest answer now. We've had the drama and the witch hunt, and he's pretty fucked because of it (guilty or not), he's got no more to lose so lets hear the full story from him.
On June 06 2012 22:11 BlitzerSC wrote: I'm happy that he got kicked out of his team ( because let's be hones, 99% of the time that a player " leaves" his team is because he got kicked). We don't need this kind of players in our community. Also, let's not call him hacker because he isnt one. HE IS A CHEATER. It's completly different.
He probably was but mostly out of convenience I imagine. WW does not have an actual SC2 team afaik, they just dumped their Dota 2 team, all they have left are some teams in games that are still amateur level gaming. They are probably dead in 3 months
I'm sick and tired of all of this "community sucks" when in fact we are the fucking best gaming community I've ever seen by miles. Yes I am fucking tired. Everyone has its reasons to not like something, NaNi did something dumb, orb did something dumb, Destiny did something dumb, Spades may have done something dumber than all combined.
Please, I beg you, don't blame the community, the community is just one kid, it is a lot of kids with a lot of different opinions, we are not just lynchers, it is not our fault, those guys are OUR public figures and they (may have in Spades case)screwed up.
Our community has a good share of forward thinking people THAT won't stand for someone using racial slur, our community has a good share of people who loves korean sportsmanship and won't stand for someone who disrespects this, our community has a good share of people that loves the game to a point that thinking of the possibility of cheating makes them nauseous. We are not just one kid, we are a lot of different kids.
On June 06 2012 18:50 TheAntZ wrote: So much drama over a player that would never get anywhere in the sc2 scene even with hacks... Its not even that people got so riled up and angry because they feared for the scenes 'integrity' This fucked up, redditized community just enjoys fucking with peoples lives at this point. Pathetic scum.
Pretty much this.
I'm absolutely sure that 99% of people who take active part in these threads and write to sponsors etc do so because they enjoy the feeling of power they have over people's lives and careers. This time around, the accusations were (likely) right. Next time they might not be. But regardless of the importance, relevance or truth of the accusations, it's pretty obvious at this point that the wolves will come out the moment they smell blood.
On June 06 2012 22:25 Alpino wrote: I'm sick and tired of all of this "community sucks" when in fact we are the fucking best gaming community I've ever seen by miles. Yes I am fucking tired. Everyone has its reasons to not like something, NaNi did something dumb, orb did something dumb, Destiny did something dumb, Spades may have done something dumber than all combined.
Please, I beg you, don't blame the community, the community is just one kid, it is a lot of kids with a lot of different opinions, we are not just lynchers, it is not our fault, those guys are OUR public figures and they (may have in Spades case)screwed up.
Our community has a good share of forward thinking people THAT won't stand for someone using racial slur, our community has a good share of people who loves korean sportsmanship and won't stand for someone who disrespects this, our community has a good share of people that loves the game to a point that thinking of the possibility of cheating makes them nauseous. We are not just one kid, we are a lot of different kids.
I don't understand. If he really did not or has never hacked, why would he suddenly decide to drop the ball like that ? If his team also believes in him like they said, they should not have been swayed by the public opinion to kick him out either. On the other hand, if Spades wanted to be released, it clearly showed that he is afraid that he'd be found guilty sooner or later, considering his MMR currently is so high. To maintain it, he'd have to continue to hack(assumingly) and if he doesnt hack, his rank would drop like mad it'd give away so clearly.
All in all, I just think he's wanting to rid of this matter asap by just leaving it hanged so the spotlight will go away from him; then he would be able to start laying lower probably to erase traces of his hacking activities.
All this is just what I think though. If I were him and I did NOT cheat and I assumingly spent tons of effort into this progaming career, I would never just throw it all away like that just because of some silly accusations.
On June 06 2012 22:11 BlitzerSC wrote: I'm happy that he got kicked out of his team ( because let's be hones, 99% of the time that a player " leaves" his team is because he got kicked).
On June 06 2012 22:11 BlitzerSC wrote: I'm happy that he got kicked out of his team ( because let's be hones, 99% of the time that a player " leaves" his team is because he got kicked). We don't need this kind of players in our community. Also, let's not call him hacker because he isnt one. HE IS A CHEATER. It's completly different.
He probably was but mostly out of convenience I imagine. WW does not have an actual SC2 team afaik, they just dumped their Dota 2 team, all they have left are some teams in games that are still amateur level gaming. They are probably dead in 3 months
No, he wasn't, he left. You're making things up.
It's funny that some people are completely oblivious to esports outside of RTS. We have an extremely strong and diverse roster, from fighting games to FIFA. Nevermind LLL still has sc2 players.
On June 06 2012 22:11 BlitzerSC wrote: I'm happy that he got kicked out of his team ( because let's be hones, 99% of the time that a player " leaves" his team is because he got kicked).
Well in this case you're 100% wrong. Spades left.
I'm sorry, if he was totally innocent his team would and should stand by and support him in what would be a very difficult time pulling up on friends and other pro's for support. He left becasue he had little other option due to how conclusive the evidence supporting him being a hacker was in the face of fans, players and top pro's. He left so that his foolish and childish actions didn't do much more damage to WW as a team and left them with some credibility.
As always, it is sick how this community witch hunts like this. It is issues like this that really turn me off of the professional scene from time to time just because it shows that the community is made up of a ton of children with no patience or logic and who have to reach a conclusion RITE NAO. The community can be great at times, but this is one of those moments where I'd rather not be part of it.
The mature way for posters, players, and everyone to handle this would be to consider the evidence over a longer period of time than 2 days.
On June 06 2012 22:11 BlitzerSC wrote: I'm happy that he got kicked out of his team ( because let's be hones, 99% of the time that a player " leaves" his team is because he got kicked).
Well in this case you're 100% wrong. Spades left.
I'm sorry, if he was totally innocent his team would and should stand by and support him in what would be a very difficult time pulling up on friends and other pro's for support. He left becasue he had little other option due to how conclusive the evidence supporting him being a hacker was in the face of fans, players and top pro's. He left so that his foolish and childish actions didn't do much more damage to WW as a team and left them with some credibility.
This is such a bad generalization. This entire thread is a trainwreck of bad generalizations with no actual evidence of anything for his actions.
The consequences if we (the posters/players/etc) are wrong is that we just fucked up his life.
On June 06 2012 22:41 MassacrisM wrote: I don't understand. If he really did not or has never hacked, why would he suddenly decide to drop the ball like that ? If his team also believes in him like they said, they should not have been swayed by the public opinion to kick him out either. On the other hand, if Spades wanted to be released, it clearly showed that he is afraid that he'd be found guilty sooner or later, considering his MMR currently is so high. To maintain it, he'd have to continue to hack(assumingly) and if he doesnt hack, his rank would drop like mad it'd give away so clearly.
All in all, I just think he's wanting to rid of this matter asap by just leaving it hanged so the spotlight will go away from him; then he would be able to start laying lower probably to erase traces of his hacking activities.
All this is just what I think though. If I were him and I did NOT cheat and I assumingly spent tons of effort into this progaming career, I would never just throw it all away like that just because of some silly accusations.
Though this has been reiterated almost every page in this thread, I must continue - this point is the strongest accusation against Spades yet.
Because sure the evidence of hacking cannot be proven and is almost completely circumstantial, BUT, Spades' actions after being accused have been more damning than any accusation people could throw at him.
If Spades took his Flash-like starsense into a LAN and wrecked faces right after this debacle, who in the hell could say anything against him? He doesn't even have to win, playing as exceptional as he did in his hacked games would do though. Not only would he be absolved of being called a hacker, but his career and fame would skyrocket overnight.
But he quit his team to save them embarassment and, in all likelihood, he'd be knocked out first round in MLG Anaheim or whatever the next LAN is. So no Spades, you will never absolve yourself because you probably were hacking to artificially inflate yourself as a pro, your career will always have a stain on it because YOU didn't do anything about it, and in my books you aren't just a poor player, you're a guy with shit character. Personally I'm done with this public outing of a wuss until he mans up and actually starts giving a shit.
On June 06 2012 22:41 MassacrisM wrote: I don't understand. If he really did not or has never hacked, why would he suddenly decide to drop the ball like that ? If his team also believes in him like they said, they should not have been swayed by the public opinion to kick him out either. On the other hand, if Spades wanted to be released, it clearly showed that he is afraid that he'd be found guilty sooner or later, considering his MMR currently is so high. To maintain it, he'd have to continue to hack(assumingly) and if he doesnt hack, his rank would drop like mad it'd give away so clearly.
All in all, I just think he's wanting to rid of this matter asap by just leaving it hanged so the spotlight will go away from him; then he would be able to start laying lower probably to erase traces of his hacking activities.
All this is just what I think though. If I were him and I did NOT cheat and I assumingly spent tons of effort into this progaming career, I would never just throw it all away like that just because of some silly accusations.
Though this has been reiterated almost every page in this thread, I must continue - this point is the strongest accusation against Spades yet.
Because sure the evidence of hacking cannot be proven and is almost completely circumstantial, BUT, Spades' actions after being accused have been more damning than any accusation people could throw at him.
If Spades took his Flash-like starsense into a LAN and wrecked faces right after this debacle, who in the hell could say anything against him? He doesn't even have to win, playing as exceptional as he did in his hacked games would do though. Not only would he be absolved of being called a hacker, but his career and fame would skyrocket overnight.
But he quit his team to save them embarassment and, in all likelihood, he'd be knocked out first round in MLG Anaheim or whatever the next LAN is. So no Spades, you will never absolve yourself because you probably were hacking to artificially inflate yourself as a pro, your career will always have a stain on it because YOU didn't do anything about it, and in my books you aren't just a poor player, you're a guy with shit character. Personally I'm done with this public outing of a wuss until he mans up and actually starts giving a shit.
It's especially strange when you consider the fact that he is a former admitted cheater who still has/had a SC2 career. For him to act like his reputation is now tarnished beyond repair just makes no sense, especially if you are to believe he is innocent.
if he can continue playing after being a proven hacker, why would being suspected of hacking be a career ender?
His comments just drip with guilt in my opinion. This is the kind of opportunity that would define him as a legit player and person of conviction after having admitted to hacking once already. Instead he can't even bring himself to deny the accusations in his latest comments. Maybe he is just a weak person, but if he truly loves what he does and is innocent I don't understand not fighting tooth and nail
On June 07 2012 00:31 Arcanefrost wrote: I don't get why he doesn't try to prove his skill in the next tournament, this really makes him look guilty.
Because his reputation is destroyed regardless?
I don't really think so, if he goes on a tear at live events and proves himself he can still make a name for himself. He already has the "hacker" label from BW so being known as a previous hacker isn't anything new for him. I'd root for a guy who got caught cheating then stopped and was actually good.
Also, TT1 is an admitted hacker and his rep isn't "destroyed"
On June 07 2012 00:31 Arcanefrost wrote: I don't get why he doesn't try to prove his skill in the next tournament, this really makes him look guilty.
Because his reputation is destroyed regardless?
I don't really think so, if he goes on a tear at live events and proves himself he can still make a name for himself. He already has the "hacker" label from BW so being known as a previous hacker isn't anything new for him. I'd root for a guy who got caught cheating then stopped and was actually good.
Also, TT1 is an admitted hacker and his rep isn't "destroyed"
TT1 didn't cheat twice. If spades considered a hacker again by most of the community, this would be his 2nd time. Also he was a coward anyway with how he handled the first accusation. He didn't admit it for a long time, until it was convenient for him to start making money of SC2.
On June 07 2012 00:31 Arcanefrost wrote: I don't get why he doesn't try to prove his skill in the next tournament, this really makes him look guilty.
Because his reputation is destroyed regardless?
It isn't though. We obviously all know Spades is a low/bottom tier NA 'pro' but if he actually did well in a tournament without hacking then people would have to say 'Ok hes pretty good.' But he won't.
On June 07 2012 00:31 Arcanefrost wrote: I don't get why he doesn't try to prove his skill in the next tournament, this really makes him look guilty.
Because his reputation is destroyed regardless?
I don't really think so, if he goes on a tear at live events and proves himself he can still make a name for himself. He already has the "hacker" label from BW so being known as a previous hacker isn't anything new for him. I'd root for a guy who got caught cheating then stopped and was actually good.
Also, TT1 is an admitted hacker and his rep isn't "destroyed"
TT1 didn't cheat twice. If spades considered a hacker again by most of the community, this would be his 2nd time. Also he was a coward anyway with how he handled the first accusation. He didn't admit it for a long time, until it was convenient for him to start making money of SC2.
Agreed he is a coward for not admitting to it immediately, but results still talk. No way you can hack at a live event. Even if most the community hates him, you can still respect him if he starts performing well without hacks.
Simply going away is the WORST possible thing he can do if he wants to prove himself innocent this time. If he doesn't, then fine just leave. He won't be missed.
On June 07 2012 00:31 Arcanefrost wrote: I don't get why he doesn't try to prove his skill in the next tournament, this really makes him look guilty.
Because his reputation is destroyed regardless?
If he turns up at a LAN and performs well I don't see how that would not help his reputation. Not that he had one before this to begin with,he is a mediocre player at best and has no offline results to speak off,no image and does nothing for the community aside from coaching as far as I know. I'm sure he is a great person in real life and that he isn't a bad kid but I won't loose any sleep if he retires and vanishes from the scene. If he want's to try and disprove all the haters and people accusing him of hacking I wish him all the best and by all means try,but obviously that won't happen here since he is quitting as far as I understand.
On June 06 2012 05:00 NovemberstOrm wrote: Why would he leave if he wasn't guilty, unless completely called out by TeamLiquid or having a full set of pro-gamers analyze the games,it just makes you look like you felt your guilt and decided to leave.
Why did Sangho quit BW when he didn't map-hack? Why are professionals fired from their careers based on hearsay and false accusations?
No longer do we live in societies where people are innocent until proven guilty in the eyes of the public. As soon as that first accusation is brought out the crowd opinion instantly latches on to that and brands the accused guilty, without deciding before all information is brought onto the table. With instant media and many outlets for others to express opinions, people are easily caught up and believe incomplete, sometimes completely false, information and it spirals out of control.
Spades being guilty or innocent won't ever clear his name in the public and that automatically makes him a risky investment for sponsors and teams. Whatever the outcome, Spade's professional career is most certainly ruined because of crusading and mob-mentality. People need to stop being so emotional over dumb shit, sit back, and wait for actual facts to come out.
I haven't read the entire thread, but this is by far the best post I've read yet. It's just the way the entire situation was handled that leaves a sour taste in many of our mouths. If you're going to accuse someone of hacking or cheating, do your homework and make damn sure you're right about it before you post it for the entire SC2 community to eat up.
I don't know if he hacked or not, but I don't think condemning a person before anything is certain is right. Sure there are a lot of things that are really fishy, but there are a lot of things that can be explained away about the entire situation, so who really knows? This is the reason we have our trial by jury system in the US. Hell, I'm actually summoned to appear as a juror on the 25th of this month and I hope for whoever's sake that none of the other people are like the majority of those posting in these two threads.
On June 06 2012 19:22 MildSeven wrote: went through Cat'z tortorously long and head ache inducing proofs against Spades, it's clear that Spades hack, like a politician, he retires.
True scumbag
I dont get it, should he have not retired?
There's a difference between retiring and being exposed and then fired, even though it's obvious to the people now that he hacks, but retiring before the issue can be truly resolved or investigated, he can cast doubt in people's mind about what he did, he officially retires and not fired/banished. Justice is not served.
On June 06 2012 09:32 quickclickz wrote: "It's unlikely that I'll receive invites to major tournaments or showmatches as long as this matter is unresolved and I don't see any way for this to be resolved."
I read that as: "There's no way I'll ever admit i'm guilty and there's no way anyone will ever prove me innocent because I'm guilty.. therefore this will never get resolved."
You should stick to the evidence in the replays rather than what Spades says. You have no reason to interpret his words that way rather than "I know I'm innocent but the community will never be convinced otherwise."
You'd have a point in that I have no reason to interpret his words in that way IF I didn't already look at the replays (all of them) as well as Catz's analysis. He's guilty so I can interpret anything he says as if he's guilty. The only thing left is to statistically prove him to be guilty- like the BW maphacks where it wasn't a camera lock but a click lock (meaning the game would not register you ever clicking on an opponent's unit ... even from the minimap. If a player doesn't do this over say an entire replay pack (50 games) I think the statistic was 1 in 50 billion of it never happening.
well looks like there's pretty solid evidence against him now
if he wants to defend himself then he can win a bunch of tournaments, because apparently he's so good he can select dropships that aren't hotkeyed and aren't on his screen. l o l
On June 07 2012 03:06 fishjie wrote: well looks like there's pretty solid evidence against him now
if he wants to defend himself then he can win a bunch of tournaments, because apparently he's so good he can select dropships that aren't hotkeyed and aren't on his screen. l o l
Yeah, that is pretty damning and the other evidence shows that he plays like no other professional player on earth. I have seen no professional players come forward to defend his play after everyone dug through those relays. It really sucks, but I hope MLG this weekend just erases this off of the forums and it a joke a year from now.
On June 06 2012 22:11 BlitzerSC wrote: I'm happy that he got kicked out of his team ( because let's be hones, 99% of the time that a player " leaves" his team is because he got kicked).
Well in this case you're 100% wrong. Spades left.
I'm sorry, if he was totally innocent his team would and should stand by and support him in what would be a very difficult time pulling up on friends and other pro's for support. He left becasue he had little other option due to how conclusive the evidence supporting him being a hacker was in the face of fans, players and top pro's. He left so that his foolish and childish actions didn't do much more damage to WW as a team and left them with some credibility.
This is such a bad generalization. This entire thread is a trainwreck of bad generalizations with no actual evidence of anything for his actions.
The consequences if we (the posters/players/etc) are wrong is that we just fucked up his life.
The evidence was laid out by Catz and the other pro gamers that where on his stream, why would everyone need to link to his stream (or VOD if its been uploaded).
On June 07 2012 00:31 Arcanefrost wrote: I don't get why he doesn't try to prove his skill in the next tournament, this really makes him look guilty.
Because his reputation is destroyed regardless?
I don't really think so, if he goes on a tear at live events and proves himself he can still make a name for himself. He already has the "hacker" label from BW so being known as a previous hacker isn't anything new for him. I'd root for a guy who got caught cheating then stopped and was actually good.
Also, TT1 is an admitted hacker and his rep isn't "destroyed"
TT1 didn't cheat twice. If spades considered a hacker again by most of the community, this would be his 2nd time. Also he was a coward anyway with how he handled the first accusation. He didn't admit it for a long time, until it was convenient for him to start making money of SC2.
Testie has been caught MHing multiple times through BW, and people still forgave him. As long you're actually skilled in LAN, you can always recover your career. So have other BW players in the past.
"the proof is overwhelming" "if you actually see the replays there are no doubts wtf" "he cameralocks [even though he looks at fow sometimes ?] it's obvious"
but why there are so many people yet doubting that he hacks? including progamers?
On June 07 2012 10:16 hnQ wrote: honest question, I see lots of
"the proof is overwhelming" "if you actually see the replays there are no doubts wtf" "he cameralocks [even though he looks at fow sometimes ?] it's obvious"
but why there are so many people yet doubting that he hacks? including progamers?
not trying to pick a fight
there aren't " so many people " the thread keeps growing because of a few persistent posters that are likely spade's friends. I haven't seen any progamers defend him after all the new replays were found, only in the initial hours.
On June 07 2012 10:16 hnQ wrote: honest question, I see lots of
"the proof is overwhelming" "if you actually see the replays there are no doubts wtf" "he cameralocks [even though he looks at fow sometimes ?] it's obvious"
but why there are so many people yet doubting that he hacks? including progamers?
not trying to pick a fight
there aren't " so many people " the thread keeps growing because of a few persistent posters that are likely spade's friends. I haven't seen any progamers defend him after all the new replays were found, only in the initial hours.
i also haven't seen pro gamers commenting on debunked theories
On June 07 2012 10:16 hnQ wrote: honest question, I see lots of
"the proof is overwhelming" "if you actually see the replays there are no doubts wtf" "he cameralocks [even though he looks at fow sometimes ?] it's obvious"
but why there are so many people yet doubting that he hacks? including progamers?
not trying to pick a fight
Because people don't want the hassle to download the replays and see for themselves? Because people love to be the dissenting voice? Because people like Spades? (Even the progamers who said he's a cheater says he's a chill guy)
Some progamers appear to be not really familiar with hacks. I'm sure most know the rudiments and I'm sure alot of them have tested some of the public ones or used them for shi*s and giggles, but guys like Nerchio and a few others who posted in support of Spades seem to have some base misunderstandings about how current pay/public hacks work. Why should they if they haven't touched the stuff?
Also as a programmer, you can see that the hack Spades appears to be using has a very distinctive fow maplock system. Lastly, just compare his replays from that series and some of his clean games where he was streaming. No pro in their right mind plays with two completely different mechanics during games. You control the units the same way, you scan the same way, you build up muscle memory to increase your apm. Because of the distinctive fow maplock system, if Spades is playing without a maphack, that means he's playing in a completely different style.
A comparison would be using one set of hotkeys for all your normal games and then deciding to switch your 1-9 keys to alphabet keys for the show match. Does that sound logical?
The guy hacked and everyone recognizes it. At this point, he's just denying because there's no upside to coming out and admitting it given his past history. Understandable.
On June 07 2012 10:16 hnQ wrote: honest question, I see lots of
"the proof is overwhelming" "if you actually see the replays there are no doubts wtf" "he cameralocks [even though he looks at fow sometimes ?] it's obvious"
but why there are so many people yet doubting that he hacks? including progamers?
not trying to pick a fight
Because people don't want the hassle to download the replays and see for themselves? Because people love to be the dissenting voice? Because people like Spades? (Even the progamers who said he's a cheater says he's a chill guy)
Some progamers appear to be not really familiar with hacks. I'm sure most know the rudiments and I'm sure alot of them have tested some of the public ones or used them for shi*s and giggles, but guys like Nerchio and a few others who posted in support of Spades seem to have some base misunderstandings about how current pay/public hacks work. Why should they if they haven't touched the stuff?
Also as a programmer, you can see that the hack Spades appears to be using has a very distinctive fow maplock system. Lastly, just compare his replays from that series and some of his clean games where he was streaming. No pro in their right mind plays with two completely different mechanics during games. You control the units the same way, you scan the same way, you build up muscle memory to increase your apm. Because of the distinctive fow maplock system, if Spades is playing without a maphack, that means he's playing in a completely different style.
A comparison would be using one set of hotkeys for all your normal games and then deciding to switch your 1-9 keys to alphabet keys for the show match. Does that sound logical?
The guy hacked and everyone recognizes it. At this point, he's just denying because there's no upside to coming out and admitting it given his past history. Understandable.
On June 07 2012 10:16 hnQ wrote: honest question, I see lots of
"the proof is overwhelming" "if you actually see the replays there are no doubts wtf" "he cameralocks [even though he looks at fow sometimes ?] it's obvious"
but why there are so many people yet doubting that he hacks? including progamers?
not trying to pick a fight
Because people don't want the hassle to download the replays and see for themselves? Because people love to be the dissenting voice? Because people like Spades? (Even the progamers who said he's a cheater says he's a chill guy)
Some progamers appear to be not really familiar with hacks. I'm sure most know the rudiments and I'm sure alot of them have tested some of the public ones or used them for shi*s and giggles, but guys like Nerchio and a few others who posted in support of Spades seem to have some base misunderstandings about how current pay/public hacks work. Why should they if they haven't touched the stuff?
Also as a programmer, you can see that the hack Spades appears to be using has a very distinctive fow maplock system. Lastly, just compare his replays from that series and some of his clean games where he was streaming. No pro in their right mind plays with two completely different mechanics during games. You control the units the same way, you scan the same way, you build up muscle memory to increase your apm. Because of the distinctive fow maplock system, if Spades is playing without a maphack, that means he's playing in a completely different style.
A comparison would be using one set of hotkeys for all your normal games and then deciding to switch your 1-9 keys to alphabet keys for the show match. Does that sound logical?
The guy hacked and everyone recognizes it. At this point, he's just denying because there's no upside to coming out and admitting it given his past history. Understandable.
not saying he doesn't hack, just trying to actually reach a conclusion by myself
Didn't bother reading 200+ pages of people rehashing the same points. Judge for yourself.
Actually Spades was stupid. From what I've seen available on the hacks forums, he should have used an overlay external hack. Won't get rid of "suspicious movements" and mirror builds accusations, but at least its not a sure giveaway like the fow map lock. You don't get APM drops of suspicious camera inactivities. Also a lot less detectable than something that hijacks and injects directly into starcraft. Sure giveaway if you examine the replay cause noone amongst the pros play without checking fow every now and then. If you are one of those exceptional rare cases, then you better make sure the replays that you play that are clean also don't show you checking fow.
And to you, instead of going "hmmm... I'm going to play detective and judge everything from posts other people make", why don't you download the replay packs and come to a conclusion yourself. Unless you're another sheep that just wants to be spoonfed. You're kinda ending up like just another TLer trying to come to a conclusion without looking at the preponderance of data available to you.
EPT
Spades cool guy, but its too hard to tell what happened.
