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This is not the place to argue whether or not spades hacked, do that in the relevant thread please.
(this is in effect page 10 onward) |
On June 06 2012 05:51 TheResidentEvil wrote:
A cheater got ousted and people complain about it. I don't understand this. There is no place for cheaters. So what if spades reputation is ruined. He cheated and he knows it. The worst part is, he doesn't come out and admit it so you guys fight over how badly he was treated when he cheated the ENTIRE TIME.
If Spades came out and said, I cheated and i quit then would you still say all this junk about witch hunts? He isn't getting beheaded or locked up somewhere. He will buy another account, cheat his way back to where he was and re-surface as someone else. That's what cheaters do.
If you whole family's life was on the line and you were forced to pick one of two choices:
1) He may or may not have hacked.
2) He fucking hacked.
You're telling me you'd pick option 2?
I think he's shady as shit but I can't believe the amount of white knights who know 100% beyond a shadow of a doubt that he's guilty and should be guillotined.
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Cant believe he is still denying it and his Team stating they dont think he was map hacking hurts them even more than him still being on the team, i think he owes it to the community to just admit it, put it behind him, and move on, otherwise his reputation will be ruined forever, this aint Broodwar.
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Could I ask of anyone to provide me with an URL to any replays/vods where his hacking is suspected/established?
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United States5162 Posts
On June 06 2012 05:54 toiletCAT wrote:Show nested quote +On June 06 2012 05:52 Myles wrote:On June 06 2012 05:48 Daralii wrote:On June 06 2012 05:44 CrugerDK wrote:
good riddance!
this is exactly when the pitchforks are justified.
map hacking is intolerable for a pro player - especially a 2nd time!
this isn't just ladder points, there's money on the line. He should be banned from all tournaments for life. Which would be great, if we ever actually found out if he was guilty.He never confessed, and there was never any definitive proof one way or the other. You've all effectively ruined his progaming career because a smurf account posted a bunch of circumstantial evidence. I don't even care if he did it at this point. This has to stop. You all can't just keep running people out of town because of stupid bullshit. You will never had definitive proof of maphacking unless the hacker in general is incredibly dumb, and even then someone could probably make an argument that it's still subjective. Honestly, there's enough circumstantial evidence to raise doubts based on the mechanics difference alone, and that's all it takes in the court of public opinion. Doubts =! evidence.
Um, circumstantial evidence that raises doubt. Like I said, there will never be definitive proof and at some point you have to make a judgment call. It'd be nice to have an organizing body for that, but until that happens, it will be up to the community.
Specifically, that he plays completely differently in the games vs lucifron compared to ladder games. Regardless of whether it means it's a screen lock or not, that his mechanics are so drastically different is a huge red flag.
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On June 06 2012 05:55 Myles wrote:Show nested quote +On June 06 2012 05:54 toiletCAT wrote:On June 06 2012 05:52 Myles wrote:On June 06 2012 05:48 Daralii wrote:On June 06 2012 05:44 CrugerDK wrote:
good riddance!
this is exactly when the pitchforks are justified.
map hacking is intolerable for a pro player - especially a 2nd time!
this isn't just ladder points, there's money on the line. He should be banned from all tournaments for life. Which would be great, if we ever actually found out if he was guilty.He never confessed, and there was never any definitive proof one way or the other. You've all effectively ruined his progaming career because a smurf account posted a bunch of circumstantial evidence. I don't even care if he did it at this point. This has to stop. You all can't just keep running people out of town because of stupid bullshit. You will never had definitive proof of maphacking unless the hacker in general is incredibly dumb, and even then someone could probably make an argument that it's still subjective. Honestly, there's enough circumstantial evidence to raise doubts based on the mechanics difference alone, and that's all it takes in the court of public opinion. Doubts =! evidence. Um, circumstantial evidence that raises doubt. Like I said, there will never be definitive proof and at some point you have to make a judgment call. It'd be nice to have an organizing body for that, but until that happens, it will be up to the community.
A responsible, judgemental call would be to leave him be, and await further notice, not judge him in the dark without evidence.
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On June 06 2012 04:57 dLG)Bananenbaum wrote:
if a professional sportsman is getting caught doping, hes out.
.
uhh... no. WADA/your country's anti-doping agency usually gives you a 2-4 year ban, then a permanent ban for repeated offense.
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It's amusing how dense the 'omg need 100% proof' people are. The BW and WC3 scenes would be dead if they relied on that to call out hackers.
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More than likely Spades was asked to leave WW and they are calling it "retirement" Sounds kinda familiar to the case when Destiny left Quantic. which in his case turned out for the better because now he's back in ROOT.
~ Purely speculative
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unknown poster accuses a semipro player of cheating in a showmatch with no proof, and people buy it because he's not the best player and hacked when he was a stupid teenager in another game. and he's not popular, so flocks of supporters wouldn't come to his aid and call him a retard, a hater with no proof etc.
immediately after public attention gets stirred, tons of "pro" players chime in as if any of their opinions are demonstrable, or they're authorities on the matter for playing at a top 1000 or so level and having placed second or first in some online cups, or maybe top whatever in a lan with maybe a few wins on lan worth mentioning on liquipedia, possibly having a stream following too. then even TT1 of all people dares show his face and some of his fans or people who know him 'cause he's oldschool suck up to him while shitting on Spades, which is ironic to say the least.
then Catz makes a douche comment about how he liked the guy but it was clear he cheated but he didn't care to go into it after skimming through the replays, while pretending objectivity - and all his sheep follow suite. they even start a new meme about it on reddit to add to the ridiculousness -in the sense of insanity- of the situation.
meanwhile there is still nothing more than circumstancial evidence, that could be found in tons of players' replays if you look long enough and if there's a significant bias against the person, the syntagm "witch hunt" comes to mind, and i think most of the people in the original thread don't actually understand how that works, or they'd pay some fucking attention to what they're posting.
then the guy does the most sensible and honorable thing to do, which is retire, to save his team the embarrassement, and save the community further hurt by extending the discussion after it was clear it was a lose-lose worse situation, and guess what, it's taken as further evidence of guilt, hmm, you 16-year old fuckers are going full-on standard Inquisition M.O. and don't even realize it.
doesn't even matter if he hacked (then fuck him for lying) or he didn't (then it's tragic) - which you'll never know, since even the most odd of things that people saw in those replays can be explained by the randomness of split-second decisions of a less than pro player (*), the way this thing ran its course is disgusting to say the least, it should really scare people that to this day the angry mob mentality that gave birth to things like the Inquisition can run so freely among such a young demographic, while being made so much worst by the impersonality of internet communication, and how it always shamelessly hunts the weakest targets.
(*)and yes, this is the whole gist of it, Spades, like Catz and the other people involved in this debacle are semipros at best, so their plays from home -not even in a tournament- and understanding of the game aren't ever going to be at even close to the theoretical highest level of play that would provide a good framework to judge "suspicious activities". so when a mediocre player with mediocre understanding judges another mediocre player with mediocre, and often brainfarty, plays, using the standard of perfection as he understands it, while being biased, and getting sought or unsought publicity out of it, guess what's gonna happen. there's a reason the whole "innocent until proven guilty" principle came to exist
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United States5162 Posts
On June 06 2012 05:57 toiletCAT wrote:Show nested quote +On June 06 2012 05:55 Myles wrote:On June 06 2012 05:54 toiletCAT wrote:On June 06 2012 05:52 Myles wrote:On June 06 2012 05:48 Daralii wrote:On June 06 2012 05:44 CrugerDK wrote:
good riddance!
this is exactly when the pitchforks are justified.
map hacking is intolerable for a pro player - especially a 2nd time!
this isn't just ladder points, there's money on the line. He should be banned from all tournaments for life. Which would be great, if we ever actually found out if he was guilty.He never confessed, and there was never any definitive proof one way or the other. You've all effectively ruined his progaming career because a smurf account posted a bunch of circumstantial evidence. I don't even care if he did it at this point. This has to stop. You all can't just keep running people out of town because of stupid bullshit. You will never had definitive proof of maphacking unless the hacker in general is incredibly dumb, and even then someone could probably make an argument that it's still subjective. Honestly, there's enough circumstantial evidence to raise doubts based on the mechanics difference alone, and that's all it takes in the court of public opinion. Doubts =! evidence. Um, circumstantial evidence that raises doubt. Like I said, there will never be definitive proof and at some point you have to make a judgment call. It'd be nice to have an organizing body for that, but until that happens, it will be up to the community. A responsible, judgemental call would be to leave him be, not judge him without evidence.
Evidence=/=proof. We do have evidence, we don't have proof.
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On June 06 2012 05:55 JazzNL wrote:
Could I ask of anyone to provide me with an URL to any replays/vods where his hacking is suspected/established?
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=342248
It's a long read. The OP has most of the information for the initial accusations.
On June 06 2012 05:58 anatem wrote:
unknown poster accuses a semipro player of cheating in a showmatch with no proof, and people buy it because he's not the best player and hacked when he was a stupid teenager in another game. and he's not popular, so flocks of supporters wouldn't come to his aid and call him a retard, a hater with no proof etc.
immediately after public attention gets stirred, tons of "pro" players chime in as if any of their opinions are demonstrable, or they're authorities on the matter for playing at a top 1000 or so level and having placed second or first in some online cups, or maybe top whatever in a lan with maybe a few wins on lan worth mentioning on liquipedia, possibly having a stream following too. then even TT1 of all people dares show his face and some of his fans or people who know him 'cause he's oldschool suck up to him while shitting on Spades, which is ironic to say the least.
then Catz makes a douche comment about how he liked the guy but it was clear he cheated but he didn't care to go into it after skimming through the replays, while pretending objectivity - and all his sheep follow suite. they even start a new meme about it on reddit to add to the ridiculousness -in the sense of insanity- of the situation.
meanwhile there is still nothing more than circumstancial evidence, that could be found in tons of players' replays if you look long enough and if there's a significant bias against the person, the syntagm "witch hunt" comes to mind, and i think most of the people in the original thread don't actually understand how that works, or they'd pay some fucking attention to what they're posting.
then the guy does the most sensible and honorable thing to do, which is retire, to save his team the embarrassement, and save the community further hurt by extending the discussion after it was clear it was a lose-lose worse situation, and guess what, it's taken as further evidence of guilt, hmm, you 16-year old fuckers are going full-on standard Inquisition M.O. and don't even realize it.
doesn't even matter if he hacked (then fuck him for lying) or he didn't (then it's tragic) - which you'll never know, since even the most odd of things that people saw in those replays can be explained by the randomness of split-second decisions of a less than pro player (*), the way this thing ran its course is disgusting to say the least, it should really scare people that to this day the angry mob mentality that gave birth to things like the Inquisition can run so freely among such a young demographic, while being made so much worst by the impersonality of internet communication, and how it always shamelessly hunts the weakest targets.
(*)and yes, this is the whole gist of it, Spades, like Catz and the other people involved in this debacle are semipros at best, so their plays from home -not even in a tournament- and understanding of the game aren't ever going to be at even close to the theoretical highest level of play that would provide a good framework to judge "suspicious activities". so when a mediocre player with mediocre understanding judges another mediocre player with mediocre, and often brainfarty, plays, using the standard of perfection as he understands it, while being biased, and getting sought or unsought publicity out of it, guess what's gonna happen. there's a reason the whole "innocent until proven guilty" principle came to exist
That's a kind of false telling of what happened. CatZ wasn't even the first Pro player to say he thought Spades cheated.
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Witch hunts have occured for some time now, I guess pro players will have to live with the risk getting their career destroyed by an anonymous accusatory post, whether you like it or not.
And giving a second time offender the benefit of the doubt is not something done easily.
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Guilty or innocent the community handled this horribly, i would hate for any of you to be my jury if i were innocent. Im disappointed in the mods for not handling the thread better and waiting for conclusive yes or no on the situation, instead it was left open for the mob to post one liners about how much they hated spades.
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His decision to leave says it all, he's not even denying cheating. Im sorry but this is clearly a hacker right here.
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On June 06 2012 05:58 Myles wrote:Show nested quote +On June 06 2012 05:57 toiletCAT wrote:On June 06 2012 05:55 Myles wrote:On June 06 2012 05:54 toiletCAT wrote:On June 06 2012 05:52 Myles wrote:On June 06 2012 05:48 Daralii wrote:On June 06 2012 05:44 CrugerDK wrote:
good riddance!
this is exactly when the pitchforks are justified.
map hacking is intolerable for a pro player - especially a 2nd time!
this isn't just ladder points, there's money on the line. He should be banned from all tournaments for life. Which would be great, if we ever actually found out if he was guilty.He never confessed, and there was never any definitive proof one way or the other. You've all effectively ruined his progaming career because a smurf account posted a bunch of circumstantial evidence. I don't even care if he did it at this point. This has to stop. You all can't just keep running people out of town because of stupid bullshit. You will never had definitive proof of maphacking unless the hacker in general is incredibly dumb, and even then someone could probably make an argument that it's still subjective. Honestly, there's enough circumstantial evidence to raise doubts based on the mechanics difference alone, and that's all it takes in the court of public opinion. Doubts =! evidence. Um, circumstantial evidence that raises doubt. Like I said, there will never be definitive proof and at some point you have to make a judgment call. It'd be nice to have an organizing body for that, but until that happens, it will be up to the community. A responsible, judgemental call would be to leave him be, not judge him without evidence. Evidence=/=proof. We do have evidence, we don't have proof.
No, you don't have evidence.
His decision to leave says it all, he's not even denying cheating. Im sorry but this is clearly a hacker right here.
He did deny.
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On June 06 2012 05:58 anatem wrote:
unknown poster accuses a semipro player of cheating in a showmatch with no proof, and people buy it because he's not the best player and hacked when he was a stupid teenager in another game. and he's not popular, so flocks of supporters wouldn't come to his aid and call him a retard, a hater with no proof etc.
immediately after public attention gets stirred, tons of "pro" players chime in as if any of their opinions are demonstrable, or they're authorities on the matter for playing at a top 1000 or so level and having placed second or first in some online cups, or maybe top whatever in a lan with maybe a few wins on lan worth mentioning on liquipedia, possibly having a stream following too. then even TT1 of all people dares show his face and some of his fans or people who know him 'cause he's oldschool suck up to him while shitting on Spades, which is ironic to say the least.
then Catz makes a douche comment about how he liked the guy but it was clear he cheated but he didn't care to go into it after skimming through the replays, while pretending objectivity - and all his sheep follow suite. they even start a new meme about it on reddit to add to the ridiculousness -in the sense of insanity- of the situation.
meanwhile there is still nothing more than circumstancial evidence, that could be found in tons of players' replays if you look long enough and if there's a significant bias against the person, the syntagm "witch hunt" comes to mind, and i think most of the people in the original thread don't actually understand how that works, or they'd pay some fucking attention to what they're posting.
then the guy does the most sensible and honorable thing to do, which is retire, to save his team the embarrassement, and save the community further hurt by extending the discussion after it was clear it was a lose-lose worse situation, and guess what, it's taken as further evidence of guilt, hmm, you 16-year old fuckers are going full-on standard Inquisition M.O. and don't even realize it.
doesn't even matter if he hacked (then fuck him for lying) or he didn't (then it's tragic) - which you'll never know, since even the most odd of things that people saw in those replays can be explained by the randomness of split-second decisions of a less than pro player (*), the way this thing ran its course is disgusting to say the least, it should really scare people that to this day the angry mob mentality that gave birth to things like the Inquisition can run so freely among such a young demographic, while being made so much worst by the impersonality of internet communication, and how it always shamelessly hunts the weakest targets.
(*)and yes, this is the whole gist of it, Spades, like Catz and the other people involved in this debacle are semipros at best, so their plays from home -not even in a tournament- and understanding of the game aren't ever going to be at even close to the theoretical highest level of play that would provide a good framework to judge "suspicious activities". so when a mediocre player with mediocre understanding judges another mediocre player with mediocre, and often brainfarty, plays, using the standard of perfection as he understands it, while being biased, and getting sought or unsought publicity out of it, guess what's gonna happen. there's a reason the whole "innocent until proven guilty" principle came to exist
someones jimmies are little bit more than rustled about this
User was temp banned for this post.
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On June 06 2012 05:59 toiletCAT wrote:Show nested quote +On June 06 2012 05:58 Myles wrote:On June 06 2012 05:57 toiletCAT wrote:On June 06 2012 05:55 Myles wrote:On June 06 2012 05:54 toiletCAT wrote:On June 06 2012 05:52 Myles wrote:On June 06 2012 05:48 Daralii wrote:On June 06 2012 05:44 CrugerDK wrote:
good riddance!
this is exactly when the pitchforks are justified.
map hacking is intolerable for a pro player - especially a 2nd time!
this isn't just ladder points, there's money on the line. He should be banned from all tournaments for life. Which would be great, if we ever actually found out if he was guilty.He never confessed, and there was never any definitive proof one way or the other. You've all effectively ruined his progaming career because a smurf account posted a bunch of circumstantial evidence. I don't even care if he did it at this point. This has to stop. You all can't just keep running people out of town because of stupid bullshit. You will never had definitive proof of maphacking unless the hacker in general is incredibly dumb, and even then someone could probably make an argument that it's still subjective. Honestly, there's enough circumstantial evidence to raise doubts based on the mechanics difference alone, and that's all it takes in the court of public opinion. Doubts =! evidence. Um, circumstantial evidence that raises doubt. Like I said, there will never be definitive proof and at some point you have to make a judgment call. It'd be nice to have an organizing body for that, but until that happens, it will be up to the community. A responsible, judgemental call would be to leave him be, not judge him without evidence. Evidence=/=proof. We do have evidence, we don't have proof. No, you don't have evidence.
Yes, we do. If you want proof to ban a hacker then no hackers would ever be banned unless someone was recording them from behind with a video camera. that maphacker impa who just got banned? welp, cant ban him without proof, he could have just been lucky proxy 2 gating every correct location. strong evidence but no proof
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Good Luck to both Spades and Western Wolves in the future!
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United States5162 Posts
On June 06 2012 05:59 toiletCAT wrote:Show nested quote +On June 06 2012 05:58 Myles wrote:On June 06 2012 05:57 toiletCAT wrote:On June 06 2012 05:55 Myles wrote:On June 06 2012 05:54 toiletCAT wrote:On June 06 2012 05:52 Myles wrote:On June 06 2012 05:48 Daralii wrote:On June 06 2012 05:44 CrugerDK wrote:
good riddance!
this is exactly when the pitchforks are justified.
map hacking is intolerable for a pro player - especially a 2nd time!
this isn't just ladder points, there's money on the line. He should be banned from all tournaments for life. Which would be great, if we ever actually found out if he was guilty.He never confessed, and there was never any definitive proof one way or the other. You've all effectively ruined his progaming career because a smurf account posted a bunch of circumstantial evidence. I don't even care if he did it at this point. This has to stop. You all can't just keep running people out of town because of stupid bullshit. You will never had definitive proof of maphacking unless the hacker in general is incredibly dumb, and even then someone could probably make an argument that it's still subjective. Honestly, there's enough circumstantial evidence to raise doubts based on the mechanics difference alone, and that's all it takes in the court of public opinion. Doubts =! evidence. Um, circumstantial evidence that raises doubt. Like I said, there will never be definitive proof and at some point you have to make a judgment call. It'd be nice to have an organizing body for that, but until that happens, it will be up to the community. A responsible, judgemental call would be to leave him be, not judge him without evidence. Evidence=/=proof. We do have evidence, we don't have proof. No, you don't have evidence.
What are you talking about the replays, pro's analysis, and Spades' own rebuttals are all evidence. None of it is definitive proof, but it is all circumstantial evidence.
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EPT
