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On May 13 2012 02:47 snakeeyez wrote:
By that logic why not turn off the fog and make the game a game of perfect information? Of course the game has luck involved if there is imperfect information you can get caught by surprise and lose although better players can lessen the chances.
Exactly... this is a strategy game.
One in which the developer chooses your strategy before hand, but the "fog" is still there to make it seem ambiguous at least.
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Terrans need start diversifying their openings.
Hellion openings were cheap and there's no way to justify the map control that T get from Hellions and that's without mentioning the eco damage if they kill drones and snipe a queen. It's untold damage.
Simply put this is a really good change and Zerg can finally be safer early game with T 4-5 hellions and having map control.
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On May 13 2012 03:23 Affluenza wrote:
Terrans need start diversifying their openings.
Hellion openings were cheap and there's no way to justify the map control that T get from Hellions and that's without mentioning the eco damage if they kill drones and snipe a queen. It's untold damage.
Simply put this is a really good change and Zerg can finally be safer early game with T 4-5 hellions and having map control.
I think this patch completely killed reaper expand in tvz . So terran actually has less options now.
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On May 13 2012 00:29 Ballistixz wrote:Show nested quote +On May 12 2012 23:35 BrandFilt wrote:
I hate how zerg think they have a right to over drone and maybe even get a third without making units. And Blizzard balancing "team" seem to think so as well. Where's my free 14CC without getting baneling, roach all-in:ed and die? Well, not that I would care for it that much anyway seeing as the instant reaction from my opponent would be to drone even harder and getting more bases. ....... make a wall and tanks and ur safe to do w/e the hell u want. early- early mid game the zerg cant do anything to terran without it being a stupidly bad all in. and mid-mid game the best thing u can do against terran is harass with mutas. terran is a insanely turtle heavy race that can do pretty much anything they want while turtling up.
Lol yeah we can really turtle at the 9-15 min mark while expanding, let me know how that goes for you. Especially now that you can pretty much see everything were doing with speedlords so you will be able to know if we are teching or expanding...
Not to mention, turtling against a zerg is probably the stupidest thing a Terran can do, let you drone up to 80? No thanks, we need to apply pressure but Blizzard keeps feeling the need to nerf our pressure
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On May 12 2012 23:37 ZenithM wrote:Show nested quote +On May 12 2012 23:25 TheBlueMeaner wrote:On May 12 2012 23:21 Doganaws wrote:On May 12 2012 04:20 Doganaws wrote:On May 12 2012 04:03 ZAiNs wrote:On May 12 2012 04:01 Doganaws wrote:And when a terran wins the next MLG they'll still be crying Now everybody lister CLEARELY: I am not M V P I don't care about who wins GSL, MLG, NASL, IGN PRO LEAGUE, Wooden league middleland championship... I care about me... and personally (this is a forum right?) i'll not be as good as before against Z. All of my vZ strats are a little hurt. And as a plat player (who dosn't want to play 6 hours a day because of work and wife) i'll not be able to react to this "LIKE A PRO". And tomorrow i'll post my replays... and in 4 days i'll start to play diablo 3 You are Platinum and think the game should be balanced around you? When Diablo III comes out don't bother coming back to SC2. You're very smart man. I've (OBVIOUSELY) ment low league players (not ME). "We" or mbye our fun will be hurt....  Ok. My first day of ladder after patch. 4 played vZ... 0 wins. All of my friends ladder (plat-gold) is dominated by Z. As i told you low level players (Terran) are having troubles... I have not won a SINGLE ZVT since the patch, terrans used to be predictable but they are returning to their old ways of doing scv all ins and weird drop plays of the sort. Havent played a single macro game vs terran since the patch.... Use your imba overlord to scout the cheese 
Use a second marine to deny said scout ;]
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Basically not getting buffs or nerfs is Blizzard's way of telling Terrans of how little they care for that faction since statistics are never wrong.
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On May 13 2012 02:47 snakeeyez wrote:
By that logic why not turn off the fog and make the game a game of perfect information? Of course the game has luck involved if there is imperfect information you can get caught by surprise and lose although better players can lessen the chances.
This x1000
Better scouting doesn't make the game "less boring" as some people say, it makes it more boring. If your opponent can always see what youre doing there are no suprises, no "oh shit" moments or anything... these changes destroy player innovation, game sense, and overall skill. It used to take skill to get an overlord into your opponents base, seeing double gas, an extra Orbital Command, etc. and figuring out how to respond. Now that it is basically guarenteed to get an overlord into the base and see everything, it requires no skill or game sense in order to respond, dumb dumb dumb. These changes are stupid and Blizzard is really dropping the ball on this, for the third or fourth patch in a row. I feel like were not even playing the same game that they are.
Dont even get me started on queen upgrade, stupid and unnecessary again. Zerg players learned to deal with Terran openings a LONG time ago, and if you die to hellions, you are just a terrible zerg player. All hellions really do is block creep spread and maybe a third unless the zerg invests in roaches. Even without roaches, zerg players were doing innovative stuff like up rooting and moving forward spine crawlers with queen support in order to spread creep, now they dont even really need to do that. So what is Terran supposed to do now? All in every game?
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On May 13 2012 03:30 Operations wrote:Show nested quote +On May 13 2012 03:23 Affluenza wrote:
Terrans need start diversifying their openings.
Hellion openings were cheap and there's no way to justify the map control that T get from Hellions and that's without mentioning the eco damage if they kill drones and snipe a queen. It's untold damage.
Simply put this is a really good change and Zerg can finally be safer early game with T 4-5 hellions and having map control. I think this patch completely killed reaper expand in tvz . So terran actually has less options now.
Look on the bright side, At least Terrans still have more openings than Zerg
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Absolutely in love with the overlord speed! So useful
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Now I have already seen 3-4 matches with mass queens + infestos + brood lords + ultra. The zerg style is completely different in these games right now. They got like 15 queens and 10-15 infestors. Even though Brood lords are slow, so do the queens, which make them the perfect support unit for brood lord. This zerg deathball contains only a few combat units (a few brood lords and ultras) but mass queens and infestors, and the zerg deathball just slowly pushed forward (even off creep). We have seen this combination occasionally before the queen buff, but the power of the same combination is very different now. Of course, terran can still use drops and protoss can still use warp-ins to counter this slow zerg army. It's not a guaranteed win, but still it's a huge change.
Here is some examples:
imperfection vs Fitzyhere
replays: http://drop.sc/178314
Ywompbeatz and quanticflo
vod: http://www.twitch.tv/msistarcrafttv
(you may need to find the match in the very long vods, but many other matches also show the power of the new queen. But Ywompbeatz and quanticflo match is the most extreme one)
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I think the queen 50 starting energy was too good. So It didnt make it...
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On May 13 2012 03:23 Affluenza wrote:
Terrans need start diversifying their openings.
Hellion openings were cheap and there's no way to justify the map control that T get from Hellions and that's without mentioning the eco damage if they kill drones and snipe a queen. It's untold damage.
Simply put this is a really good change and Zerg can finally be safer early game with T 4-5 hellions and having map control.
Change the opening to what ? Bio is crap before Stim no way to take map control with that . Reapers are completely useless now and even before against Lings once they get speed they weren't that great. Unless you want to allow the Zerg to cover half the Map in creep you need Helions. With anything else theres no way to stop it.
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On May 13 2012 00:41 s3rp wrote:Show nested quote +On May 13 2012 00:29 Ballistixz wrote:On May 12 2012 23:35 BrandFilt wrote:
I hate how zerg think they have a right to over drone and maybe even get a third without making units. And Blizzard balancing "team" seem to think so as well. Where's my free 14CC without getting baneling, roach all-in:ed and die? Well, not that I would care for it that much anyway seeing as the instant reaction from my opponent would be to drone even harder and getting more bases. ....... make a wall and tanks and ur safe to do w/e the hell u want. early- early mid game the zerg cant do anything to terran without it being a stupidly bad all in. and mid-mid game the best thing u can do against terran is harass with mutas. terran is a insanely turtle heavy race that can do pretty much anything they want while turtling up. A wall and tanks is different than not making any unit other than a few Queens and just pumping workers .
A) Zerg gets three bases and masses Queens and Drones.
or
B) Zerg takes gas to build Roaches and Banelings.
Pick one, not both.
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On May 13 2012 06:46 WolfintheSheep wrote:Show nested quote +On May 13 2012 00:41 s3rp wrote:On May 13 2012 00:29 Ballistixz wrote:On May 12 2012 23:35 BrandFilt wrote:
I hate how zerg think they have a right to over drone and maybe even get a third without making units. And Blizzard balancing "team" seem to think so as well. Where's my free 14CC without getting baneling, roach all-in:ed and die? Well, not that I would care for it that much anyway seeing as the instant reaction from my opponent would be to drone even harder and getting more bases. ....... make a wall and tanks and ur safe to do w/e the hell u want. early- early mid game the zerg cant do anything to terran without it being a stupidly bad all in. and mid-mid game the best thing u can do against terran is harass with mutas. terran is a insanely turtle heavy race that can do pretty much anything they want while turtling up. A wall and tanks is different than not making any unit other than a few Queens and just pumping workers . A) Zerg gets three bases and masses Queens and Drones. or B) Zerg takes gas to build Roaches and Banelings. Pick one, not both.
For what would you need Banelings before the Terran has Stim you can't pressure with Stimless Bio against speedlings . Roaches are also only needed if the Terran really invests in Helions. ( 10+ at least ) . With the recent patch the Zerg is almost free to saturate 2 Bases before needing to build any army. And since there's no real reliable way to stop creepspread anymore its also harder to delay the third.
And what the guy meant was if as a Terran you 14 CC very easy to Zerg All-Ins since you slow down your tech sooooo much. While the Zerg now gets it for free and can build enough Drones for 3 Bases if they chose to without any real risk unless they play without any defense.
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It's funny how terrans say they can't spread creep when queens have longer range. What is the problem with moving in and kill off tumors as they land, then move back off creep again? You'll take like a few hits on one hellion? ...
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On May 13 2012 06:53 Zheryn wrote:
It's funny how terrans say they can't spread creep when queens have longer range. What is the problem with moving in and kill off tumors as they land, then move back off creep again? You'll take like a few hits on one hellion? ...
You take alot more hits if you do that and will have to move back to repair way way ealier and once you do that you can kiss delaying creespread goodbye. Especially if you play Bio behind it.
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On May 13 2012 06:56 s3rp wrote:Show nested quote +On May 13 2012 06:53 Zheryn wrote:
It's funny how terrans say they can't spread creep when queens have longer range. What is the problem with moving in and kill off tumors as they land, then move back off creep again? You'll take like a few hits on one hellion? ... You take alot more hits if you do that and will have to move back to repair way way ealier and once you do that you can kiss delaying creespread goodbye. Especially if you play Bio behind it.
What...? Queens do pitiful damage to hellions. There is a reason Terrans will sometimes opt to simply run right past Queens when they don't see a Spine Crawler. It takes FOREVER for a Queen to kill a Hellion and it's easily enough time to nab drone kills/kill creep tumors. It seems to me like Terrans are just complaining because they can't kill creep tumors completely for free anymore. That was never "balanced" in my opinion. Range 5 may be too much, but they at least need range 4. Hellions shouldn't be able to so easily kill tumors and drones and guarantee map control. There should always be some sort of a trade-off.
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On May 13 2012 07:05 vRadiatioNv wrote:Show nested quote +On May 13 2012 06:56 s3rp wrote:On May 13 2012 06:53 Zheryn wrote:
It's funny how terrans say they can't spread creep when queens have longer range. What is the problem with moving in and kill off tumors as they land, then move back off creep again? You'll take like a few hits on one hellion? ... You take alot more hits if you do that and will have to move back to repair way way ealier and once you do that you can kiss delaying creespread goodbye. Especially if you play Bio behind it. What...? Queens do pitiful damage to hellions. There is a reason Terrans will sometimes opt to simply run right past Queens when they don't see a Spine Crawler. It takes FOREVER for a Queen to kill a Hellion and it's easily enough time to nab drone kills/kill creep tumors. It seems to me like Terrans are just complaining because they can't kill creep tumors completely for free anymore. That was never "balanced" in my opinion. Range 5 may be too much, but they at least need range 4. Hellions shouldn't be able to so easily kill tumors and drones and guarantee map control. There should always be some sort of a trade-off.
If you only have 4-6 Helions you Helions get low very very fast. 8 Damage every second is not pityful when your target only has 90 HP and doesn't regenerate . Its next to impossible now to delay creespread with only a few Helions ( anything else can't delay creepsread at all btw ) . If you want to stop creepspread you need alot Helions now and that only works if the Zerg doesn't build roaches.
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On May 13 2012 07:22 s3rp wrote:Show nested quote +On May 13 2012 07:05 vRadiatioNv wrote:On May 13 2012 06:56 s3rp wrote:On May 13 2012 06:53 Zheryn wrote:
It's funny how terrans say they can't spread creep when queens have longer range. What is the problem with moving in and kill off tumors as they land, then move back off creep again? You'll take like a few hits on one hellion? ... You take alot more hits if you do that and will have to move back to repair way way ealier and once you do that you can kiss delaying creespread goodbye. Especially if you play Bio behind it. What...? Queens do pitiful damage to hellions. There is a reason Terrans will sometimes opt to simply run right past Queens when they don't see a Spine Crawler. It takes FOREVER for a Queen to kill a Hellion and it's easily enough time to nab drone kills/kill creep tumors. It seems to me like Terrans are just complaining because they can't kill creep tumors completely for free anymore. That was never "balanced" in my opinion. Range 5 may be too much, but they at least need range 4. Hellions shouldn't be able to so easily kill tumors and drones and guarantee map control. There should always be some sort of a trade-off. If you only have 4-6 Helions you Helions get low very very fast. 8 Damage every second is not pityful when your target only has 90 HP and doesn't regenerate .
According to those numbers, It takes 12 hits for a Queen to kill ONE Hellion. So, if you are in range of the Queen the entire time: 48 seconds for 4 Hellions, 72 seconds for 6 Hellions. That's a LONG TIME. Even with 2 Queens that's still a long time. Not to mention, it shouldn't take 48 seconds for you to kill 2-3 creep tumors anyways. =/ I have seen plenty of recent high-level TvZ games and i can tell you right now, Hellions still do their job. They take a few hits of damage, but they are nowhere near "unviable." Terrans in this thread are just overreacting.
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On May 13 2012 07:33 vRadiatioNv wrote:Show nested quote +On May 13 2012 07:22 s3rp wrote:On May 13 2012 07:05 vRadiatioNv wrote:On May 13 2012 06:56 s3rp wrote:On May 13 2012 06:53 Zheryn wrote:
It's funny how terrans say they can't spread creep when queens have longer range. What is the problem with moving in and kill off tumors as they land, then move back off creep again? You'll take like a few hits on one hellion? ... You take alot more hits if you do that and will have to move back to repair way way ealier and once you do that you can kiss delaying creespread goodbye. Especially if you play Bio behind it. What...? Queens do pitiful damage to hellions. There is a reason Terrans will sometimes opt to simply run right past Queens when they don't see a Spine Crawler. It takes FOREVER for a Queen to kill a Hellion and it's easily enough time to nab drone kills/kill creep tumors. It seems to me like Terrans are just complaining because they can't kill creep tumors completely for free anymore. That was never "balanced" in my opinion. Range 5 may be too much, but they at least need range 4. Hellions shouldn't be able to so easily kill tumors and drones and guarantee map control. There should always be some sort of a trade-off. If you only have 4-6 Helions you Helions get low very very fast. 8 Damage every second is not pityful when your target only has 90 HP and doesn't regenerate . According to those numbers, It takes 12 hits for a Queen to kill ONE Hellion. So, if you are in range of the Queen the entire time: 48 seconds for 4 Hellions, 72 seconds for 6 Hellions. That's a LONG TIME. Even with 2 Queens that's still a long time. Not to mention, it shouldn't take 48 seconds for you to kill 2-3 creep tumors anyways. =/ I have seen plenty of recent high-level TvZ games and i can tell you right now, Hellions still do their job. They take a few hits of damage, but they are nowhere near "unviable." Terrans in this thread are just overreacting.
Who said that 1 or 2 Queens are killing all the Helions. They stall and soften them up well enough that the first round of Lings ( once Zerg has enouhj Drones for now ) could easily mob them up if you don't go and repair . You don't even need to catch or soround yellow/orange helions since even off-creep speedlings are faster and will get hits on Helions.
With the patch Queens and ultimately the Speedlings will scare the Helions away way faster giving them Zerg alot more time to spread creep safely after the helions leave ( before they come back or before a push ).
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EPT
