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On May 13 2012 19:29 schimmetje wrote:
Man I hope Blizzard makes Zerg the most versatile race in HotS, it's so wasted on you people. Can't get an easy advantage with one build which we'll then all do all the time? Clearly broken race. We've gone through so many iterations of this now and still you're doing it >< Meanwhile there's a ton of suggestions in this thread and every time you just go "no if I do this and they do this we may die". Hey Terrans, welcome to the game.
Terran hasn't been versatile in forever. Blizzard with the handholding of zergs made sure of that. Wake up and smell the roses.
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This thread seems like its full of people with valid reasons why this patch is unnecessary, and a bunch of gold league zergs trying to defend it... progress!
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I love how every T in this thread acts like a 0.12 speed bonus for units that are only good for basic scouting and supply and a 2 range bonus for units that are produced in numbers of 6-8 max. a game have completely ruined the matchup for them, rendering every possible opening invalid.
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patch played out as expected. Hellion opener isn't affected at all (except the repair worker i had out anyway), but everything else is. Got alot of free wins with 2 factory blue flame hellions as zergs are feeling to save already. (2nd factory proxied in the middle where you can snipe ovis with marines.)
i guess Blizzard wanted that terrans only go hellions in tvz early game. O.o;
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On May 13 2012 21:19 Blizzaze wrote:
I love how every T in this thread acts like a 0.12 speed bonus for units that are only good for basic scouting and supply and a 2 range bonus for units that are produced in numbers of 6-8 max. a game have completely ruined the matchup for them, rendering every possible opening invalid.
well the +2 range also makes it a hell of a lot harder to put up aggressive bunkers early game
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On May 13 2012 21:19 Blizzaze wrote:
I love how every T in this thread acts like a 0.12 speed bonus for units that are only good for basic scouting and supply and a 2 range bonus for units that are produced in numbers of 6-8 max. a game have completely ruined the matchup for them, rendering every possible opening invalid.
It doesnt render them invalid, but it definitely makes them harder to pull off, and it makes it MUCH easier for zerg to defend, which is totally unnecessary as due to the metagame, zerg has basically figured out how to deal with all T openings. Way better scouting, plus two range on queens, I mean what more do you want? A free baneling with every spine crawler?
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On May 13 2012 22:15 teamhozac wrote:Show nested quote +On May 13 2012 21:19 Blizzaze wrote:
I love how every T in this thread acts like a 0.12 speed bonus for units that are only good for basic scouting and supply and a 2 range bonus for units that are produced in numbers of 6-8 max. a game have completely ruined the matchup for them, rendering every possible opening invalid. It doesnt render them invalid, but it definitely makes them harder to pull off, and it makes it MUCH easier for zerg to defend, which is totally unnecessary as due to the metagame, zerg has basically figured out how to deal with all T openings. Way better scouting, plus two range on queens, I mean what more do you want? A free baneling with every spine crawler?
Classic QQ...absolutely classic! Haha!
"totally unnecessary as due to the metagame"...what does this even mean...lol
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On May 13 2012 21:52 Silidons wrote:Show nested quote +On May 13 2012 21:19 Blizzaze wrote:
I love how every T in this thread acts like a 0.12 speed bonus for units that are only good for basic scouting and supply and a 2 range bonus for units that are produced in numbers of 6-8 max. a game have completely ruined the matchup for them, rendering every possible opening invalid. well the +2 range also makes it a hell of a lot harder to put up aggressive bunkers early game
Thats a good thing, games ended far too easy for such a cheaper and non commital action. I say change Ghosts a bit more and then the only problem in the game is protoss..
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On May 13 2012 22:54 Affluenza wrote:Show nested quote +On May 13 2012 22:15 teamhozac wrote:On May 13 2012 21:19 Blizzaze wrote:
I love how every T in this thread acts like a 0.12 speed bonus for units that are only good for basic scouting and supply and a 2 range bonus for units that are produced in numbers of 6-8 max. a game have completely ruined the matchup for them, rendering every possible opening invalid. It doesnt render them invalid, but it definitely makes them harder to pull off, and it makes it MUCH easier for zerg to defend, which is totally unnecessary as due to the metagame, zerg has basically figured out how to deal with all T openings. Way better scouting, plus two range on queens, I mean what more do you want? A free baneling with every spine crawler? Classic QQ...absolutely classic! Haha! "totally unnecessary as due to the metagame"...what does this even mean...lol
Zerg scouting was a problem probably like a year ago? It isnt anymore... Hellions were never a problem... guess what, people actually figured out how to deal with Terran openings, can you believe it? Aside from the constant nerfs, Zerg and protoss learned to deal with Terran early game pressure, shocking right? Thats called the metagame, okay? That is why these buffs are just insulting to Terrans, if you can't see that you need to get your head out of the sand.
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On May 13 2012 22:59 Aeceus wrote:Show nested quote +On May 13 2012 21:52 Silidons wrote:On May 13 2012 21:19 Blizzaze wrote:
I love how every T in this thread acts like a 0.12 speed bonus for units that are only good for basic scouting and supply and a 2 range bonus for units that are produced in numbers of 6-8 max. a game have completely ruined the matchup for them, rendering every possible opening invalid. well the +2 range also makes it a hell of a lot harder to put up aggressive bunkers early game Thats a good thing, games ended far too easy for such a cheaper and non commital action. I say change Ghosts a bit more and then the only problem in the game is protoss..
Its only a good thing if the rushes before waren't easily holdable . Its a bad thing if it allows players to play super greedy without any fear of repercussions .
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On May 13 2012 23:29 teamhozac wrote:Show nested quote +On May 13 2012 22:54 Affluenza wrote:On May 13 2012 22:15 teamhozac wrote:On May 13 2012 21:19 Blizzaze wrote:
I love how every T in this thread acts like a 0.12 speed bonus for units that are only good for basic scouting and supply and a 2 range bonus for units that are produced in numbers of 6-8 max. a game have completely ruined the matchup for them, rendering every possible opening invalid. It doesnt render them invalid, but it definitely makes them harder to pull off, and it makes it MUCH easier for zerg to defend, which is totally unnecessary as due to the metagame, zerg has basically figured out how to deal with all T openings. Way better scouting, plus two range on queens, I mean what more do you want? A free baneling with every spine crawler? Classic QQ...absolutely classic! Haha! "totally unnecessary as due to the metagame"...what does this even mean...lol Zerg scouting was a problem probably like a year ago? It isnt anymore... Hellions were never a problem... guess what, people actually figured out how to deal with Terran openings, can you believe it? Aside from the constant nerfs, Zerg and protoss learned to deal with Terran early game pressure, shocking right? Thats called the metagame, okay? That is why these buffs are just insulting to Terrans, if you can't see that you need to get your head out of the sand.
Zerg scouting? Good? What? Sacrificing lings and Overlords is not good especially in the early game where we need to maximise and be very efficient with larvae...
What you are describing is Zerg adapting...we resigned ourselves to the fact/fate that we needed to sacrifice OL and lings...that is all.
Zerg has had issues scouting since beta...it's taken Blizzard 2 years to help zerg scout.
It's time Terrans started to also adapt...you cant expect Blizzard to just nerf/buff things till things go right for you, you have to figure things out without relying on Blizzard.
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Anyone know if there is some replays somewhere tvz with korean players? Would love to see if the korean terrans have actually figured out some way to deal with the new queen buff. I dont believe I have actually won a single decent zerg after the patch, it just feel so damn hard.
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On May 13 2012 23:39 Affluenza wrote:Show nested quote +On May 13 2012 23:29 teamhozac wrote:On May 13 2012 22:54 Affluenza wrote:On May 13 2012 22:15 teamhozac wrote:On May 13 2012 21:19 Blizzaze wrote:
I love how every T in this thread acts like a 0.12 speed bonus for units that are only good for basic scouting and supply and a 2 range bonus for units that are produced in numbers of 6-8 max. a game have completely ruined the matchup for them, rendering every possible opening invalid. It doesnt render them invalid, but it definitely makes them harder to pull off, and it makes it MUCH easier for zerg to defend, which is totally unnecessary as due to the metagame, zerg has basically figured out how to deal with all T openings. Way better scouting, plus two range on queens, I mean what more do you want? A free baneling with every spine crawler? Classic QQ...absolutely classic! Haha! "totally unnecessary as due to the metagame"...what does this even mean...lol Zerg scouting was a problem probably like a year ago? It isnt anymore... Hellions were never a problem... guess what, people actually figured out how to deal with Terran openings, can you believe it? Aside from the constant nerfs, Zerg and protoss learned to deal with Terran early game pressure, shocking right? Thats called the metagame, okay? That is why these buffs are just insulting to Terrans, if you can't see that you need to get your head out of the sand. Zerg scouting? Good? What? Sacrificing lings and Overlords is not good especially in the early game where we need to maximise and be very efficient with larvae... What you are describing is Zerg adapting...we resigned ourselves to the fact/fate that we needed to sacrifice OL and lings...that is all. Zerg has had issues scouting since beta...it's taken Blizzard 2 years to help zerg scout. It's time Terrans started to also adapt...you cant expect Blizzard to just nerf/buff things till things go right for you, you have to figure things out without relying on Blizzard.
Yeah Terran will adapt untill everyone does the same exact shit every time in every MU exept for TvT since this is how Blizzard has patched. The went way overboard with nerf and buffs and basically try to narrow down Terran to very few strats/opening .. If you want to argue well other races would have that too . Maybe but that doesn't mean its a good thing and shouldn't be changed.
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letting the zerg mass up until 8 mins and go then is my style now , since in diamond everyone is retardet and doesn't use it  lets see what i can do when i'm in masters. cant wait for spring arena to see what mkp has found out.
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On May 13 2012 23:55 ntssauce wrote:letting the zerg mass up until 8 mins and go then is my style now , since in diamond everyone is retardet and doesn't use it lets see what i can do when i'm in masters. cant wait for spring arena to see what mkp has found out.
You will be dissapointing then since MKP will not be there .
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time to switch race
Terran goes more and more unplayable when you dont have code s micro
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On May 13 2012 23:55 s3rp wrote:Show nested quote +On May 13 2012 23:39 Affluenza wrote:On May 13 2012 23:29 teamhozac wrote:On May 13 2012 22:54 Affluenza wrote:On May 13 2012 22:15 teamhozac wrote:On May 13 2012 21:19 Blizzaze wrote:
I love how every T in this thread acts like a 0.12 speed bonus for units that are only good for basic scouting and supply and a 2 range bonus for units that are produced in numbers of 6-8 max. a game have completely ruined the matchup for them, rendering every possible opening invalid. It doesnt render them invalid, but it definitely makes them harder to pull off, and it makes it MUCH easier for zerg to defend, which is totally unnecessary as due to the metagame, zerg has basically figured out how to deal with all T openings. Way better scouting, plus two range on queens, I mean what more do you want? A free baneling with every spine crawler? Classic QQ...absolutely classic! Haha! "totally unnecessary as due to the metagame"...what does this even mean...lol Zerg scouting was a problem probably like a year ago? It isnt anymore... Hellions were never a problem... guess what, people actually figured out how to deal with Terran openings, can you believe it? Aside from the constant nerfs, Zerg and protoss learned to deal with Terran early game pressure, shocking right? Thats called the metagame, okay? That is why these buffs are just insulting to Terrans, if you can't see that you need to get your head out of the sand. Zerg scouting? Good? What? Sacrificing lings and Overlords is not good especially in the early game where we need to maximise and be very efficient with larvae... What you are describing is Zerg adapting...we resigned ourselves to the fact/fate that we needed to sacrifice OL and lings...that is all. Zerg has had issues scouting since beta...it's taken Blizzard 2 years to help zerg scout. It's time Terrans started to also adapt...you cant expect Blizzard to just nerf/buff things till things go right for you, you have to figure things out without relying on Blizzard. Yeah Terran will adapt untill everyone does the same exact shit every time in every MU exept for TvT since this is how Blizzard has patched. The went way overboard with nerf and buffs and basically try to narrow down Terran to very few strats/opening .. If you want to argue well other races would have that too . Maybe but that doesn't mean its a good thing and shouldn't be changed.
Most Zergs when it comes to these buffs are of the opinion that the OL speed is very nice and welcomed and has been asked for since the beta.
The Queen range is out of leftfield...no Zerg asked for this change.
I think reapers need buffing...but then I cant but feel that they are anything but a gimmick for early game. I agree Terran should probably have 2 maybe 3 varied openings. Hellions are still viable btw...just takes more control on your part.
There is a misconception here to be addressed though...Terrans shouldn't feel entitled to comfortable/almost automatic map-control just because in the past you had it with such ease. Playing ZvT as Zerg in the early game we are very vulnerable and survival with certain Terran openings has always been a close cut...ala 5 rax reaper, 2 rax-bunker rush, reactor hellion. Nerfs dropped on these because it's a bit too strong...maybe Blizzard went tad overboard on reapers though.
We've lived on the knife edge for a while...whether that is correct I don't know but it feels slightly weird that as Zerg we should to be so defensive but if we want to be aggressive like Terrans our builds are borderline all-in but Terran can transition very well off of almost all their aggressive openings. I guess it comes down to how diverse the Terran unts are.
Now I resigned myself to the fact that playing Zerg I have to do my utmost to survive Terran pressure so I can get into the mid/late game...I don't desire for Blizzard to buff early game Zerg I'm quite happy with the mind set that I have to survive early game and then it's my turn later in the mid-to-late game to use Zerg strats to my advantage.
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On May 14 2012 00:21 Affluenza wrote:Show nested quote +On May 13 2012 23:55 s3rp wrote:On May 13 2012 23:39 Affluenza wrote:On May 13 2012 23:29 teamhozac wrote:On May 13 2012 22:54 Affluenza wrote:On May 13 2012 22:15 teamhozac wrote:On May 13 2012 21:19 Blizzaze wrote:
I love how every T in this thread acts like a 0.12 speed bonus for units that are only good for basic scouting and supply and a 2 range bonus for units that are produced in numbers of 6-8 max. a game have completely ruined the matchup for them, rendering every possible opening invalid. It doesnt render them invalid, but it definitely makes them harder to pull off, and it makes it MUCH easier for zerg to defend, which is totally unnecessary as due to the metagame, zerg has basically figured out how to deal with all T openings. Way better scouting, plus two range on queens, I mean what more do you want? A free baneling with every spine crawler? Classic QQ...absolutely classic! Haha! "totally unnecessary as due to the metagame"...what does this even mean...lol Zerg scouting was a problem probably like a year ago? It isnt anymore... Hellions were never a problem... guess what, people actually figured out how to deal with Terran openings, can you believe it? Aside from the constant nerfs, Zerg and protoss learned to deal with Terran early game pressure, shocking right? Thats called the metagame, okay? That is why these buffs are just insulting to Terrans, if you can't see that you need to get your head out of the sand. Zerg scouting? Good? What? Sacrificing lings and Overlords is not good especially in the early game where we need to maximise and be very efficient with larvae... What you are describing is Zerg adapting...we resigned ourselves to the fact/fate that we needed to sacrifice OL and lings...that is all. Zerg has had issues scouting since beta...it's taken Blizzard 2 years to help zerg scout. It's time Terrans started to also adapt...you cant expect Blizzard to just nerf/buff things till things go right for you, you have to figure things out without relying on Blizzard. Yeah Terran will adapt untill everyone does the same exact shit every time in every MU exept for TvT since this is how Blizzard has patched. The went way overboard with nerf and buffs and basically try to narrow down Terran to very few strats/opening .. If you want to argue well other races would have that too . Maybe but that doesn't mean its a good thing and shouldn't be changed. Most Zergs when it comes to these buffs are of the opinion that the OL speed is very nice and welcomed and has been asked for since the beta. The Queen range is out of leftfield...no Zerg asked for this change. I think reapers need buffing...but then I cant but feel that they are anything but a gimmick for early game. I agree Terran should probably have 2 maybe 3 varied openings. Hellions are still viable btw...just takes more control on your part. There is a misconception here to be addressed though...Terrans shouldn't feel entitled to comfortable/almost automatic map-control just because in the past you had it with such ease. Playing ZvT as Zerg in the early game we are very vulnerable and survival with certain Terran openings has always been a close cut...ala 5 rax reaper, 2 rax-bunker rush, reactor hellion. Nerfs dropped on these because it's a bit too strong...maybe Blizzard went tad overboard on reapers though. We've lived on the knife edge for a while...whether that is correct I don't know but it feels slightly weird that as Zerg we should to be so defensive but if we want to be aggressive like Terrans our builds are borderline all-in but Terran can transition very well off of almost all their aggressive openings. I guess it comes down to how diverse the Terran unts are. Now I resigned myself to the fact that playing Zerg I have to do my utmost to survive Terran pressure so I can get into the mid/late game...I don't desire for Blizzard to buff early game Zerg I'm quite happy with the mind set that I have to survive early game and then it's my turn later in the mid-to-late game to use Zerg strats to my advantage.
If there was a reliable way to remove creep without sacrificing big chunks of your economy in the eary/midgame ( scanning ) or building a unit that serves no other purpose against Zerg if you don't Mech ( Raven ) i doubt alot of Terran would complain. Do creeptumors really need to be invisible ? I say make them visible at all time but don't limit the charges they can spread ( still remain with a CD though ) .
If you ever allow a Zerg for too long to spread creep ( and its hard to limit him now ) you can say goodbye to a big chunk of the Map . And especially with Bio attacking on creep is just suicide.
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On May 13 2012 20:48 teamhozac wrote:
This thread seems like its full of people with valid reasons why this patch is unnecessary, and a bunch of gold league zergs trying to defend it... progress!
You must recognize that completely oversimplifying 76 pages of discussion into a biased, 2-sentence "zinger" is also the opposite of progress. We'll know soon enough how this pans out.
I support the Ovie speed and obs speed, but queen range might be too severe.
Grubby made a great point about this patch increasing zerg scouting but decreasing tosses because probes can no longer scout. Again, we'll see!
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On May 14 2012 00:21 Affluenza wrote:Show nested quote +On May 13 2012 23:55 s3rp wrote:On May 13 2012 23:39 Affluenza wrote:On May 13 2012 23:29 teamhozac wrote:On May 13 2012 22:54 Affluenza wrote:On May 13 2012 22:15 teamhozac wrote:On May 13 2012 21:19 Blizzaze wrote:
I love how every T in this thread acts like a 0.12 speed bonus for units that are only good for basic scouting and supply and a 2 range bonus for units that are produced in numbers of 6-8 max. a game have completely ruined the matchup for them, rendering every possible opening invalid. It doesnt render them invalid, but it definitely makes them harder to pull off, and it makes it MUCH easier for zerg to defend, which is totally unnecessary as due to the metagame, zerg has basically figured out how to deal with all T openings. Way better scouting, plus two range on queens, I mean what more do you want? A free baneling with every spine crawler? Classic QQ...absolutely classic! Haha! "totally unnecessary as due to the metagame"...what does this even mean...lol Zerg scouting was a problem probably like a year ago? It isnt anymore... Hellions were never a problem... guess what, people actually figured out how to deal with Terran openings, can you believe it? Aside from the constant nerfs, Zerg and protoss learned to deal with Terran early game pressure, shocking right? Thats called the metagame, okay? That is why these buffs are just insulting to Terrans, if you can't see that you need to get your head out of the sand. Zerg scouting? Good? What? Sacrificing lings and Overlords is not good especially in the early game where we need to maximise and be very efficient with larvae... What you are describing is Zerg adapting...we resigned ourselves to the fact/fate that we needed to sacrifice OL and lings...that is all. Zerg has had issues scouting since beta...it's taken Blizzard 2 years to help zerg scout. It's time Terrans started to also adapt...you cant expect Blizzard to just nerf/buff things till things go right for you, you have to figure things out without relying on Blizzard. Yeah Terran will adapt untill everyone does the same exact shit every time in every MU exept for TvT since this is how Blizzard has patched. The went way overboard with nerf and buffs and basically try to narrow down Terran to very few strats/opening .. If you want to argue well other races would have that too . Maybe but that doesn't mean its a good thing and shouldn't be changed. Most Zergs when it comes to these buffs are of the opinion that the OL speed is very nice and welcomed and has been asked for since the beta. The Queen range is out of leftfield...no Zerg asked for this change. I think reapers need buffing...but then I cant but feel that they are anything but a gimmick for early game. I agree Terran should probably have 2 maybe 3 varied openings. Hellions are still viable btw...just takes more control on your part. There is a misconception here to be addressed though...Terrans shouldn't feel entitled to comfortable/almost automatic map-control just because in the past you had it with such ease. Playing ZvT as Zerg in the early game we are very vulnerable and survival with certain Terran openings has always been a close cut...ala 5 rax reaper, 2 rax-bunker rush, reactor hellion. Nerfs dropped on these because it's a bit too strong...maybe Blizzard went tad overboard on reapers though. We've lived on the knife edge for a while...whether that is correct I don't know but it feels slightly weird that as Zerg we should to be so defensive but if we want to be aggressive like Terrans our builds are borderline all-in but Terran can transition very well off of almost all their aggressive openings. I guess it comes down to how diverse the Terran unts are. Now I resigned myself to the fact that playing Zerg I have to do my utmost to survive Terran pressure so I can get into the mid/late game...I don't desire for Blizzard to buff early game Zerg I'm quite happy with the mind set that I have to survive early game and then it's my turn later in the mid-to-late game to use Zerg strats to my advantage.
Its not supposed to be an EASY game. You think Terran inst vulnerable to roach/baneling busts? We are, we take risks as well, our scouting isnt great either, especially if it means sacrificing a MULE early game, which REALLY hurts us. And you saying I shouldnt wait for buffs/nerfs and should adapt is hilarious considering how many nerfs we have received specifically with early game TvZ pressure, bunker nerf, reaper nerf, rax nerf, hellion nerf, bunker nerf round 2... now you guys have better scouting, better defensive queens... "yea just adapt" I could have said that to you 2 years ago right?
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EPT
