Patch 1.4.3.2 - Page 77

On May 14 2012 00:37 s3rp wrote:
If there was a reliable way to remove creep without sacrificing big chunks of your economy in the eary/midgame ( scanning ) or building a unit that serves no other purpose against Zerg if you don't Mech ( Raven ) i doubt alot of Terran would complain. Do creeptumors really need to be invisible ? I say make them visible at all time but don't limit the charges they can spread ( still remain with a CD though ) .

If you ever allow a Zerg for too long ( and its hard to limit him now ) you can a big chunk of the Map good bye. And especially with Bio attacking on creep is just suicide.

On May 14 2012 00:46 Jermstuddog wrote:
Affluenza touches on an important point with the mention of living on a knife edge. There is an important part here that I think deserves much discussion, this knife edge has always been Zerg risking losing the game outright, and the only benefit he stands to gain is the game going on, its not like Zerg gains some sort of massive edge, he simply has to take massive risks, like going hatch first vs 2 rax so that he can maintain equal economy against the Terran. He still has to fight an uphill battle vs the cost-effectiveness or Terran units.

Anything that makes the early game portions of TvZ more of a balanced risk/reward is good IMO. Zerg risking everything for the right to play standard is idiotic, and its laughable that some people feel entitled to having this scenario.

On May 14 2012 01:06 cOoLiD wrote:
I don't understand what Blizzard was thinking when they add two range to the queen. One range would have been okay. Terrans with good micro could still kite queens and stop creep spread. But I think the 5 range queen is too much and we will see Zerg players start to abuse it more and more in future tournaments.

On May 14 2012 00:58 Blizzaze wrote:


First off, if you see a pair of mules as a "big chunk of your economy", you're lacking general understanding of the game.
Mules are an option that the CC gives you, just like scans and supply are. I don't get why Terrans thinks they have this big unique economy where mules are necessary to keep up with your opponent. That's just not true. Mules have just turned out to be used as the most efficient way to spend CC energy and boost your economy and not compensate for your lack of constant SCV production.
Also, why is decent creep spread generally regarded as the apocalypse by terrans? Creep is necessary for zerg to even be able to get good engagements that are not infront of their base. It's something Zerg has to spend macro time on , while such things don't even exist for any other race.
That's like saying "Nerfing mutalisks makes killing dropships impossible, this messes up my whole midgame as zerg!"
It's not like 1 scan to kill of the end of a creep vein sets you back irreparably.

On May 14 2012 00:58 Blizzaze wrote:


First off, if you see a pair of mules as a "big chunk of your economy", you're lacking general understanding of the game.
Mules are an option that the CC gives you, just like scans and supply are. I don't get why Terrans thinks they have this big unique economy where mules are necessary to keep up with your opponent. That's just not true. Mules have just turned out to be used as the most efficient way to spend CC energy and boost your economy and not compensate for your lack of constant SCV production.
Also, why is decent creep spread generally regarded as the apocalypse by terrans? Creep is necessary for zerg to even be able to get good engagements that are not infront of their base. It's something Zerg has to spend macro time on , while such things don't even exist for any other race.
That's like saying "Nerfing mutalisks makes killing dropships impossible, this messes up my whole midgame as zerg!"
It's not like 1 scan to kill of the end of a creep vein sets you back irreparably.

On May 14 2012 01:13 Blizzaze wrote:


Please enlighten me and tell me how to abuse the 5 range on units that have 8 DPS and are generally produced in one-digit numbers! I'm sure that will be unbeatable.

On May 14 2012 01:06 cOoLiD wrote:
If any other early game unit in the game got a 2 range buff we would be freaking out about how imbalanced it is, yes? Think about 8 range stalkers, 7 range marines, 8 range marauders, 6 range roaches, or 5 range queens. If you gave to +2 range to any early game unit other than the queen it is obviously imbalanced so why is the queen exempt from that?

All of the units I listed would destroy many early game opportunities for the other races. For example, how would toss deal with a 7 range marine? Or 8 range marauder? Its the same thing for Terran right now with 5 range queens. We simply do not have any versatility. With 5 range queens I can make 4 queens a spine and hold an unscouted proxy 3 rax with all scvs pulled. How ridiculous is that? With 5 range queens I can hold pretty much all current early game aggression and Terran has to do damage at the moment to deal with Zerg's insane lategame.

I don't understand what Blizzard was thinking when they add two range to the queen. One range would have been okay. Terrans with good micro could still kite queens and stop creep spread. But I think the 5 range queen is too much and we will see Zerg players start to abuse it more and more in future tournaments.

On May 14 2012 01:15 CakeSauc3 wrote:


Both races have always been living on a knife's edge in that matchup, because up until now it's been perfectly balanced. In the early game, Terran had a great chance to pressure and cause damage to keep Zerg from completely out-macroing them in the mid/late game. Otherwise, Zerg just smashes Terran without any contest later on. The pressure was on Terran to do damage, or suffer an extra ten minutes of being behind before watching Zerg units swarm their base. It was hard enough as a Terran player then.

What scares me about this Queen buff now has nothing to do with how the game has been played in the past - it's how Zerg is going to adapt. Up until now, Zerg has been forced to tech to roaches whenever it's apparent that a large group of hellions are heading their way. Terran relied on this tech-switch to slow Zerg down. Now, are roaches even needed? Honestly, unless Zerg plans on going on the offensive, all they need to do is build a few more queens, and there's nothing that Terran can do. 2-rax, reaper, hellion, and banshee all have one thing in common - they die to the new super-queens.

Zerg's preferred tech-path, then (whether it be muta or infestor or super-fast upgraded ling) will not be slowed down by Terran pressure.If Zerg just decides to use the new super-queens to their advantage, Terran remains with a very small timing window in which they must attack and do permanent damage, or else Zerg will be overly powerful around the 12 minute mark and on, once ideal saturation is reached on 3 base Zerg.

And everyone should know what that means. Unless the Terran has Code-S control, they will be forced to all-in before Zerg gets to their maximum economy. We can't slow down Zerg anymore and draw it out into a macro game. Now, we have to just go for the kill. I can't control my tank-marine army on the fly to keep up with an endless wave of 2:2 ling/baneling + infestor. I'm not Korean. If I go mech but can't do damage with hellions early on, my thor/hellion army will just be massacred the second I leave my base. Mid/late game TvZ is now a suicide mission - kill or die.

I guess it's time to dust off the ol' vods and analyze BitByBitPrime... turns out he was a TvZ prophet.

On May 14 2012 01:15 CakeSauc3 wrote:
What scares me about this Queen buff now has nothing to do with how the game has been played in the past - it's how Zerg is going to adapt. Up until now, Zerg has been forced to tech to roaches whenever it's apparent that a large group of hellions are heading their way. Terran relied on this tech-switch to slow Zerg down. Now, are roaches even needed? Honestly, unless Zerg plans on going on the offensive, all they need to do is build a few more queens, and there's nothing that Terran can do. 2-rax, reaper, hellion, and banshee all have one thing in common - they die to the new super-queens.

On May 14 2012 01:28 cHaNg-sTa wrote:

The fact that you're trying to make proxy 3rax + all scvs pulled a viable strategy is where your argument just fails. The game should thrive away from such a scenario. The fact that such a strategy could even work when Zerg invests in 8 supply worth of queens and a spine crawler (and zerglings I'm sure) and still fail to a proxy scv-all in, I think there's something inherently wrong with the game then.

On May 14 2012 01:31 Jermstuddog wrote:


Exactly the post I was waiting for, because we haven't been seeing Zerg crush Terran every time once you get past X minutes in the game, we've been seeing a fight for map control, drops from the terran while contesting map control, and mass expanding by the Zerg while he pushes his creep forward.

Nothing there shows that Zergs somehow become unstoppable once they secure their 3rd base or something. Rather, we see exactly what we should see, a game that can easily go either way.

I'm sorry that you feel Zerg should have to risk the whole game to get there while Terran comfortably goes for whatever the hell they want. It's 2 years past due that Terran has to finally think of the possible negative consequences of each build they do.

Welcome to the club.

On May 14 2012 00:46 teamhozac wrote:


Its not supposed to be an EASY game. You think Terran inst vulnerable to roach/baneling busts? We are, we take risks as well, our scouting isnt great either, especially if it means sacrificing a MULE early game, which REALLY hurts us. And you saying I shouldnt wait for buffs/nerfs and should adapt is hilarious considering how many nerfs we have received specifically with early game TvZ pressure, bunker nerf, reaper nerf, rax nerf, hellion nerf, bunker nerf round 2... now you guys have better scouting, better defensive queens... "yea just adapt" I could have said that to you 2 years ago right?

The queen and overlord buffs are not the end of early game TvZ pressure for Terran. It's the start of where Terrans learn better unit control and rid themselves of sloppy play.