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On May 08 2012 16:21 Diglett wrote:Show nested quote +On May 08 2012 14:00 lorkac wrote:On May 08 2012 13:57 MercilessMonkey wrote:On May 08 2012 13:28 lorkac wrote:On May 08 2012 13:05 Chocobo wrote:On May 08 2012 12:36 hasuterrans wrote:On May 08 2012 12:22 Chocobo wrote:On May 08 2012 12:00 revel8 wrote:On May 08 2012 11:48 Chocobo wrote:On May 08 2012 11:02 revel8 wrote:
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It is laughable that because I am opposed to racism you imply I am bigoted and compare my stance of opposing racism to those who display homophobic behaviour or religious fundamentalism. Translation: "haha, those silly groups with their strange moral code, trying to control the actions of others... what a bunch of crazies. Luckily I follow the correct and accurate set of morals, and am completely justified in my attempts to control others with it." So being opposed to racism is now an example of bigotry? Hilarious. You are just embarrassing yourself now in your desperation to defend racist comments. Like I said, you need to get your head examined. If you are unable to see the difference between supporting the right to use free speech without losing your job and supporting racism, then something isn't working right in there.
My moral code is the code of modern progressive society in which racism is not tolerated but opposed, if your personal moral code is lacking and anachronistic then that is not my problem, it's yours.
There is no God but Allah, and Muhammad is his prophet! Allahu Akbar! Allahu Akbar! What you cannot seem to stomach is that the sponsors agreed with me that his behaviour was unacceptable. It is Destiny and his ungoverned behaviour that was likely to turn away sponsors from the scene. I take no issue with the actions of Quantic or Razer. They did what they had to do. If everyone in the SC2 community agreed with you then the sponsors would all leave because they cannot be associated with racial abuse and those who condone it. If everyone agreed with me, there would be no outcry and no reason for sponsors to leave. We'd have an uncensored community where players wouldn't be afraid to express unusual or unpopular opinions out of fear of punishment. Sounds just fine to me. You continue to embarrass yourself. You have no arguments except that you are appear unhappy that racism is now marginalised by society. You have decided in your mind that I am pro-racism and that everything I say is some invented argument in order to support racism. That is not the case. You need to wrap your mind around the fact that I am talking about free speech, not racism. Do you believe that rappers should be banned from using the word "nigger" in their songs, under penalty of losing their jobs? Do you believe that the TV show South Park should be pulled off the air? Do you think movies should not be allowed to have racist characters in them? I don't. I think all of these things should be allowed, and people who find that material offensive should simply avoid it. And this is exactly the same kind of situation... except in our case, the TL morality police decided to petition against the offensive material instead of simply ignoring it. This isn't a free speech debate lol. Destiny is not some kind of victim or free speech martyr. He's still free to say whatever he wants on his stream. No one is forcing Destiny to say or not say anything. Destiny was a brand ambassador for Razer by being a part of Quantic. A lot people use Razer products and don't want them supporting players who promote racist and homophobic language so they contacted Razer. Then Razer pulled the strings on Quantic. Shocking. This isn't a witch-hunt but a sequence of entirely predictable cause-and-effect events that have played themselves out in many competitive arenas. Furthermore, Destiny is still free to find a sponsor who will tolerate his language and support him. I hate that argument. "He's free to say whatever he wants, but he should be prepared to accept the punishment for it". Newsflash... if there's a punishment for unpopular speech, then it isn't exactly free speech. I'm sure some Chinese officials would agree that their citizens are free to talk about the Tiananmen Square Massacre, just as long as they're prepared to accept the jail time that comes afterwards. Yes, I'm aware that the technical definition of free speech involves the right to speech without fear of punishment from law enforcement. But by going the angry mob route, people are creating their own unwritten laws and enforcing vigilante justice, which is worse than the "crime" of calling someone a nasty name. To those who support the idea of emailing Razer and getting Destiny fired- what's wrong with the concept of "if you don't like it, don't watch it"? I agree. People sending their thoughts to sponsors is an excellent example of Free Speech in action. Its stupid that there are people out there who want to limit people's rights to send whatever speech they want to the sponsors of a player. If you are against Racism, then you should be okay with people sending letters to sponsors. If you are pro-free speech, then you should be okay with people exercising free speech and sending letters to sponsors. If you are pro racism, then you should be against the sending of letters to sponsors. I am against racism. I am not okay with people immediately sending letters to sponsors. It is even worse when some of the people doing it were people who didn't watch his stream in the first place. Choosing a course of action which doesn't particularly harm the alleged racist, but could seriously impact a bunch of innocent people on his team does not make sense. That is not the only anti-racism course of action, believe it or not. What a ridiculous argument. Just because some people don't agree with your point of view doesn't mean that they're all pro racism. Keep your terrible straw-man arguments out of it. Not saying I people should agree with me. I'm saying if everyone is free to speak their mind--that should also include those people who enjoy sending letters to sponsors. They are people too. They, as people, also have free speech. To be against them speaking their mind is to be against free speech. Why do you wish to shut up others who disagree with you? just because you have the ability to speak your mind doesn't mean you should exercise it in absurd ways. that's called being a dick. im not calling you a dick. im just saying there are circumstances when free speech accomplishes nothing but negative stuff. and in that case why there would be no reason (other than being a dick) to exercise your right to free speech.
Just because you're offended doesn't mean that you have an argument. The people who wrote letters had a basis for their actions--they witnessed a bigot being payed to be a bigot. They disagreed with this practice, and so met the problem directly. You simply being offended at the opinions of others has no argumentative standing.
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On May 08 2012 16:15 Chocobo wrote:Show nested quote +On May 08 2012 16:03 lorkac wrote:On May 08 2012 15:47 Chocobo wrote:On May 08 2012 15:30 lorkac wrote:On May 08 2012 14:39 Chocobo wrote:On May 08 2012 13:28 lorkac wrote:On May 08 2012 13:05 Chocobo wrote:On May 08 2012 12:36 hasuterrans wrote:On May 08 2012 12:22 Chocobo wrote:On May 08 2012 12:00 revel8 wrote:
[quote]
You continue to embarrass yourself. You have no arguments except that you are appear unhappy that racism is now marginalised by society. You have decided in your mind that I am pro-racism and that everything I say is some invented argument in order to support racism. That is not the case. You need to wrap your mind around the fact that I am talking about free speech, not racism. Do you believe that rappers should be banned from using the word "nigger" in their songs, under penalty of losing their jobs? Do you believe that the TV show South Park should be pulled off the air? Do you think movies should not be allowed to have racist characters in them? I don't. I think all of these things should be allowed, and people who find that material offensive should simply avoid it. And this is exactly the same kind of situation... except in our case, the TL morality police decided to petition against the offensive material instead of simply ignoring it. This isn't a free speech debate lol. Destiny is not some kind of victim or free speech martyr. He's still free to say whatever he wants on his stream. No one is forcing Destiny to say or not say anything. Destiny was a brand ambassador for Razer by being a part of Quantic. A lot people use Razer products and don't want them supporting players who promote racist and homophobic language so they contacted Razer. Then Razer pulled the strings on Quantic. Shocking. This isn't a witch-hunt but a sequence of entirely predictable cause-and-effect events that have played themselves out in many competitive arenas. Furthermore, Destiny is still free to find a sponsor who will tolerate his language and support him. I hate that argument. "He's free to say whatever he wants, but he should be prepared to accept the punishment for it". Newsflash... if there's a punishment for unpopular speech, then it isn't exactly free speech. I'm sure some Chinese officials would agree that their citizens are free to talk about the Tiananmen Square Massacre, just as long as they're prepared to accept the jail time that comes afterwards. Yes, I'm aware that the technical definition of free speech involves the right to speech without fear of punishment from law enforcement. But by going the angry mob route, people are creating their own unwritten laws and enforcing vigilante justice, which is worse than the "crime" of calling someone a nasty name. To those who support the idea of emailing Razer and getting Destiny fired- what's wrong with the concept of "if you don't like it, don't watch it"? I agree. People sending their thoughts to sponsors is an excellent example of Free Speech in action. Its stupid that there are people out there who want to limit people's rights to send whatever speech they want to the sponsors of a player. If you are against Racism, then you should be okay with people sending letters to sponsors. If you are pro-free speech, then you should be okay with people exercising free speech and sending letters to sponsors. If you are pro racism, then you should be against the sending of letters to sponsors. I support the legal right to do all of these things. But that does not make them the right thing to do. If your neighbor says some unpleasant things to you, you are within your legal rights to monitor the decibel levels when he throws a party and call the police if it gets too loud. You are within your rights to call the homeowners association in your neighborhood and have him reprimanded if his grass gets too tall, or if he plants flowers in an unapproved area. You are within your rights to talk to all of your other neighbors and tell them stories about things he has done wrong, and convince them to join you in treating him negatively. Or you could just ignore him and his unpleasant opinions. I believe this is the better choice. Depends on what he's saying right? If he's threatening to hurt you--then calling the authorities is the normal thing to do. If he's simply insulting you personally--then you can complain to the homeowners association because paying $300,000-$600,000 to live where people attack you constantly is not worth the money. If he is simply being offensive and cursing at your neighbors, then you are in the moral quandary of doing the right thing (helping your neighbor that is being belittled) or doing the apathetic thing (pretending nothing is wrong.) For example, a lot of Germans during WW2 didn't say anything about what was happening with the Jews because it wasn't their problem--why bother saying anything if it didn't affect them anyway? On the other hand, Salem witch trials got out of hand with the witch hunts. The correct answer is that there is no black and white answer. Saying nothing only sometimes is the right choice much like saying something is sometimes the right choice. You cannot define when it is the right choice simply because you personally feel it is. You're inventing extreme situations that have no relevance here. This is about someone saying a bad word on the internet. When someone has a potty mouth (or should I say, potty fingers? it's not like he actually said any of these words), there is a right answer. You ignore him. That's why the complaint was of Destiny saying fuck? Or ass? Or shit? Oh right--being offensive was not the complaint, being bigoted was the complaint. How offended people were was not as important as the fact that he was being bigoted. Destiny was not fired for being offensive, he was fired for being bigoted. Some people choose to let bigotry happen, others don't. Sometimes it's the right call to let bigotry happen, sometimes it isn't. For example, movies showing Nazi's as bad guys I am down for and I feel is an important step in the right direction for humanity. To stigmatize a social group that is so toxic to humanity as a whole is a good thing in my opinion. However, stigmatizing Vietnamese simply for disliking them is (to me) not good for humanity as whole. Whether the bigotry Destiny showed us was good for humanity or not is up to his sponsors. If he wanted to be bigoted without repercussions, maybe he should have been funded by Comedy Central or Trey Parker instead of Razer. Destiny is not a role model, he has a lot of growing up to do, and there are plenty of people who dislike him for good reasons. But that doesn't mean that two wrongs make a right. "but, he's not a nice person!" "but, nasty people deserve to have bad things happen!" I don't care. It doesn't matter. Angry mobs pretending to be the morality police, demanding compliance or threatening whatever punishment they're able to come up with... that is not how things should be done.
So you consider talking to a company about the quality of their product is a wrong?
Razer didn't have to let him go. Razer could have done what many companies have done and ignored what people say when they get letters saying the artist/player they sponsored was a bigot/misogynist/etc... HBO, Paramount, Virgin Entertainment, Comedy Central, etc... all are okay with having openly bigotted language on their airwaves. They're okay with artists who speak in a bigotted manner representing their company. But Razer, not so much. Why?
Because they don't want that association. And apparently, neither does Quantic. If you have a problem with Razer or Quantic not being okay with Destiny's behavior--then write to them. As I've said many times on this thread--telling TL that you disagree with the decisions made behind closed doors doesn't resolve anything. Write to Razer, write to Quantic. If they agree with your argument, I'm sure they'll sign Destiny back in in no time. They'll probably even hire Orb.
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I thought this thread was supposed to be about witch-hunts, not the destiny/racism issue again.
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On May 08 2012 16:41 thesideshow wrote:
I thought this thread was supposed to be about witch-hunts, not the destiny/racism issue again.
Cool, let's go back to that then.
People have the right to write to whomever they want--sponsors included.
We should not police or censor the letter writing community.
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OP is so wrong with this thread  I know what he means but even though nobody would report orb or Destiny, you still have sponsors that support these guys. Do you really think they want to be affiliated with racism ? Answer is a big NO!
Also Naniwa's probe rush was against general sportmanship in Korea, it wasnt a witch-hunt.
Its the same in UFC as well, if you dont put up a good fight you get removed.
Also why get mad at these people reporting them ? Calling people the N word and G word is totally unacceptable in a normal society. Its more wrong of YOU to accuse them of beeing witch hunters.
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This is a good OP. I was actually trying to write for sometime thoughts to this effect. I think a lot of it has to do with the general age and level of maturity of the community, added by the fact that this is an internet based anonymous "community and the actual relationship can be more volatile and unpredictable than traditional once. I agree with the general sentiment, there has to be some maturity to be demanded from the community and this general attitude is "hurting eSports!" :D
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wtf, this turned to another destiny case? Gz
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Wow, I'm pretty surprised at how many people here who openly think it's a good idea (or atleast not a bad one) to go to the sponsors when someone is doing something inappropriate.
Personally I find it refreshing that things in esports are not as uptight and fake as the things you see on tv, but even if you disagree with this, do you have to hurt an entire team in the process because you think you are protecting some hypothetical person / future viewer of this sc2?
That being said, sometimes I feel that it's exaggerated how "negative the community is". Sometimes it's really just a thread that has alot of discussion value or a thread where alot of people are telling a few bad posters that what they are saying is wrong. But then somehow, someone arrives at TL and see "blablabla x guy says x inappropriate thing" with many many responses and people just assume it's because everything thinks that "x" was very inappropriate. When in fact it was the majority of people disagreeing with the original topic.
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I'm against talking to the sponsors directly. Players do something you don't approve, then cease being a fan of this player. Don't watch him, root against him. As a viewer, you already have the choice to avoid a player, not watching his games.
Just because YOU think that something is unacceptable, doesn't mean it's punishable by e-sports-death.
If every time a sufficiently large group of viewers is offended by the actions of a player, the ralley and write the sponsors, then madness will ensue.
Example (hypothetical!):
I'm sure if organized properly, enough viewers were disgusted by IM_MVP cheesing against Naniwa in the GSL semi-finals. Lets go and talk to the IM sponsors and teach that cheesy noob a lesson. He robbed us of more entertaining games by choosing all-ins. Revolting!
Don't impose your views on all players. Just be a fan of players you like. Don't write to Quantic sponsors because Destiny was BM, write to Duckload or TLAF because White-Ra or Sheth are so manner!
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On May 08 2012 18:02 Thrombozyt wrote:
I'm against talking to the sponsors directly. Players do something you don't approve, then cease being a fan of this player. Don't watch him, root against him. As a viewer, you already have the choice to avoid a player, not watching his games.
Just because YOU think that something is unacceptable, doesn't mean it's punishable by e-sports-death.
Don't impose your views on all players. Just be a fan of players you like. Don't write to Quantic sponsors because Destiny was BM, write to Duckload or TLAF because White-Ra or Sheth are so manner!
What this guy says.
Digging up a screenshot of someone calling someone else the n word on the internet is definately witch hunting. And harassing the sponsors of the team of said guy is also witch hunting. It only does harm to the scene.
I'm sure more white people were offended by that than black people. It's not " bringing justice " it's " the angry mob of the internet made up of people who like to think they have some power fu*king sh*t up".
I'm also surprised to see that nobody brought up the katu incident : from what i remember dragon is a known stream cheater and katu just reminded people of that, sure he may or may not have insinuated that dragon might be doing that in this one event but so what ?
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Australia8532 Posts
On May 08 2012 16:43 lorkac wrote:Show nested quote +On May 08 2012 16:41 thesideshow wrote:
I thought this thread was supposed to be about witch-hunts, not the destiny/racism issue again. Cool, let's go back to that then. People have the right to write to whomever they want--sponsors included. We should not police or censor the letter writing community.
Sigh. I don't think people really want censorship or policing of what we can or cannot say; people are free to say whatever they want. The point of the discussion is to hopefully make people realise the consequences of their actions; just because you are free to do something doesn't make it the correct thing to do!
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In any real sport, players who behave badly are being sorted out by teams, sponsors and fans. Why should esport be any different? I really don't see this as a problem worthy of discussion right now.
Besides, please stop saying witchhunt, it's simply the wrong word. Look up the definition.
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I have been inactive for quite a while but felt the need to log back in for this specific thread for several reasons. 1.) Witch hunting does hurt esports. 2.) Instead of punishment given by team, sponsors are involved and now destiny has lost his job.
I think the community as a whole should just look in the mirror and take a stance.
All together I agree with OP, thanks for constructing your thoughts very clearly.
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On May 08 2012 18:25 bkrow wrote:Show nested quote +On May 08 2012 16:43 lorkac wrote:On May 08 2012 16:41 thesideshow wrote:
I thought this thread was supposed to be about witch-hunts, not the destiny/racism issue again. Cool, let's go back to that then. People have the right to write to whomever they want--sponsors included. We should not police or censor the letter writing community. Sigh. I don't think people really want censorship or policing of what we can or cannot say; people are free to say whatever they want. The point of the discussion is to hopefully make people realise the consequences of their actions; just because you are free to do something doesn't make it the correct thing to do!
I don't think that kind of discussion will get very far. The people who emailed the sponsors probably knew exactly what they wanted to achieve consequence wise. Others like myself, don't believe the consequences were that great at all.
You want the argument to be: "Look guys, emailing sponsors can rob someone of their livelihood".
Others see it as: "Emailing sponsors can mean a guy who repeatedly uses racial slurs no longer gets payed to play a video game".
Both statements are technically true, but framed differently and take on different connotations. Unfortunate as it is to say, no one in this world is guaranteed their choice of profession. The entertainment industry is especially susceptible to swings in public opinion. If you do something to piss the public off (apologetically I might add), then don't be surprised if you get a backlash. If said person then can no longer make a living entertaining, it's not the fault of the public, it's their own.
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i completely agree with the poster and his points. However, saying whether to witch hunt yes and no is just too straightforward, like black and white. The problem is that it will most likely fall in between. Say there was a robber in your house, and you caught him robbing some money. You kill him. That is what Razer did to Destiny. They did the extreme end of the scale, and ended their sponsorship (not the same scale as killing, but same scale in what they could do, which ending sponsorship is the biggest thing possible). It is not right to kill the robber, but it is acceptable to say, injure him. The punishment/witch hunt must scale with how large the problem is; in my opinion, in Destiny's case, Razer and his team should have just given him a severe warning at most. Seriously, Destiny streams so goddamn much, if I did the same amount of streaming, I would definitely have at least a few slip ups on the bad days. Racial slurs are not right, but they do not deserve what Destiny got. TL:DR they should deserve it accordingly to the severity of their actions.
sorry i had to use the robber example. i cant think of any other one.
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Awesome and constructive discussion guys!
It's really nice to see this sort of exchange of ideas/opinions.
I think this will really make people think, and cyber-public awereness grow.
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These witch hunts that have been going on have been utterly ridiculous. It doesn't help that TL's staff seems to support them either. Unlisting Destiny's stream for 30 days was just...confusing.
To be frank, the community should stay small and underground if this is the kind of bullshit we're going to see more and more of as we grow.
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United Arab Emirates9 Posts
Why do people want to blame the communtiy? Going to the sponsors isn't wrong, it's actually the only thing left do to. The excuse is "go to the teams first", but they do not listen. They wait til the situation explodes and it becomes too late. In every case the teams always have reasonable oppourinty to prevent these things but they just look the other way. Why is there 9000 threads blaming the people going to the sponsors but nobody telling teams to stop this from ever happening in the first place.
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Do people not realize that witch-hunting to the sponsors discourages more sponsors from coming to esports? Has anyone made that connection yet? Newsflash, they don't like people threatening them all the damn time for stupid silly issues like this. Sponsors that we do have might just say "fuck it, we can get less drama for our buck elsewhere."
Seriously, do you not get that?
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On May 08 2012 14:31 liberal wrote:
I'm trying to imagine, if I were to watch a show like South Park or something, and something that was said in the episode really offended me. The only response I can imagine myself coming up with would be to feel a little irritated and then forget about it eventually.
Maybe if I was REALLY butthurt I could fume about it for a few minutes, maybe even turn it off.
Maybe if I was SO EXTREMELY butthurt beyond anything I've even experienced by words I would refuse to ever watch the show again.
But I just can't ever, ever imagine finding myself so angry and butthurt that I would start lashing out at it on the internet, or writing letters to the network, or start protesting the show or something. I would have to be a generally bitter and angry and vindictive person to actually go to such lengths over something so ridiculously petty.
And then I realize that this isn't a nationally syndicated show, it's some nerds playing video games on the internet, and then I wonder seriously what in the fuck is wrong with some people.
Sorry if I made anyone butthurt that's just my 2 cents.
Yeah, there's a difference between what South Park says and the stuff that Destiny was spewing
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