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On May 08 2012 14:21 msl wrote:Show nested quote +On May 08 2012 14:00 lorkac wrote:On May 08 2012 13:57 MercilessMonkey wrote:On May 08 2012 13:28 lorkac wrote:On May 08 2012 13:05 Chocobo wrote:On May 08 2012 12:36 hasuterrans wrote:On May 08 2012 12:22 Chocobo wrote:On May 08 2012 12:00 revel8 wrote:On May 08 2012 11:48 Chocobo wrote:On May 08 2012 11:02 revel8 wrote:
[quote]
It is laughable that because I am opposed to racism you imply I am bigoted and compare my stance of opposing racism to those who display homophobic behaviour or religious fundamentalism. Translation: "haha, those silly groups with their strange moral code, trying to control the actions of others... what a bunch of crazies. Luckily I follow the correct and accurate set of morals, and am completely justified in my attempts to control others with it." So being opposed to racism is now an example of bigotry? Hilarious. You are just embarrassing yourself now in your desperation to defend racist comments. Like I said, you need to get your head examined. If you are unable to see the difference between supporting the right to use free speech without losing your job and supporting racism, then something isn't working right in there.
My moral code is the code of modern progressive society in which racism is not tolerated but opposed, if your personal moral code is lacking and anachronistic then that is not my problem, it's yours.
There is no God but Allah, and Muhammad is his prophet! Allahu Akbar! Allahu Akbar! What you cannot seem to stomach is that the sponsors agreed with me that his behaviour was unacceptable. It is Destiny and his ungoverned behaviour that was likely to turn away sponsors from the scene. I take no issue with the actions of Quantic or Razer. They did what they had to do. If everyone in the SC2 community agreed with you then the sponsors would all leave because they cannot be associated with racial abuse and those who condone it. If everyone agreed with me, there would be no outcry and no reason for sponsors to leave. We'd have an uncensored community where players wouldn't be afraid to express unusual or unpopular opinions out of fear of punishment. Sounds just fine to me. You continue to embarrass yourself. You have no arguments except that you are appear unhappy that racism is now marginalised by society. You have decided in your mind that I am pro-racism and that everything I say is some invented argument in order to support racism. That is not the case. You need to wrap your mind around the fact that I am talking about free speech, not racism. Do you believe that rappers should be banned from using the word "nigger" in their songs, under penalty of losing their jobs? Do you believe that the TV show South Park should be pulled off the air? Do you think movies should not be allowed to have racist characters in them? I don't. I think all of these things should be allowed, and people who find that material offensive should simply avoid it. And this is exactly the same kind of situation... except in our case, the TL morality police decided to petition against the offensive material instead of simply ignoring it. This isn't a free speech debate lol. Destiny is not some kind of victim or free speech martyr. He's still free to say whatever he wants on his stream. No one is forcing Destiny to say or not say anything. Destiny was a brand ambassador for Razer by being a part of Quantic. A lot people use Razer products and don't want them supporting players who promote racist and homophobic language so they contacted Razer. Then Razer pulled the strings on Quantic. Shocking. This isn't a witch-hunt but a sequence of entirely predictable cause-and-effect events that have played themselves out in many competitive arenas. Furthermore, Destiny is still free to find a sponsor who will tolerate his language and support him. I hate that argument. "He's free to say whatever he wants, but he should be prepared to accept the punishment for it". Newsflash... if there's a punishment for unpopular speech, then it isn't exactly free speech. I'm sure some Chinese officials would agree that their citizens are free to talk about the Tiananmen Square Massacre, just as long as they're prepared to accept the jail time that comes afterwards. Yes, I'm aware that the technical definition of free speech involves the right to speech without fear of punishment from law enforcement. But by going the angry mob route, people are creating their own unwritten laws and enforcing vigilante justice, which is worse than the "crime" of calling someone a nasty name. To those who support the idea of emailing Razer and getting Destiny fired- what's wrong with the concept of "if you don't like it, don't watch it"? I agree. People sending their thoughts to sponsors is an excellent example of Free Speech in action. Its stupid that there are people out there who want to limit people's rights to send whatever speech they want to the sponsors of a player. If you are against Racism, then you should be okay with people sending letters to sponsors. If you are pro-free speech, then you should be okay with people exercising free speech and sending letters to sponsors. If you are pro racism, then you should be against the sending of letters to sponsors. I am against racism. I am not okay with people immediately sending letters to sponsors. It is even worse when some of the people doing it were people who didn't watch his stream in the first place. Choosing a course of action which doesn't particularly harm the alleged racist, but could seriously impact a bunch of innocent people on his team does not make sense. That is not the only anti-racism course of action, believe it or not. What a ridiculous argument. Just because some people don't agree with your point of view doesn't mean that they're all pro racism. Keep your terrible straw-man arguments out of it. Not saying I people should agree with me. I'm saying if everyone is free to speak their mind--that should also include those people who enjoy sending letters to sponsors. They are people too. They, as people, also have free speech. To be against them speaking their mind is to be against free speech. Why do you wish to shut up others who disagree with you? (Emphasis added) The fact that someone has a right (free speech) does not prevent him from showing restraint and judgement when excercising it. A dicussion about wether parts of the community show sound judgement when excercising their rights does not make one against people having that right. No one is questioning that people have the right to free speech. The question is, are they using it in a constructive manner.
So which is more constructive, Destiny calling people gooks and niggers, or people who disagree with bigotry attempting to make the subculture they are part of be more tolerant?
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I'm trying to imagine, if I were to watch a show like South Park or something, and something that was said in the episode really offended me. The only response I can imagine myself coming up with would be to feel a little irritated and then forget about it eventually.
Maybe if I was REALLY butthurt I could fume about it for a few minutes, maybe even turn it off.
Maybe if I was SO EXTREMELY butthurt beyond anything I've even experienced by words I would refuse to ever watch the show again.
But I just can't ever, ever imagine finding myself so angry and butthurt that I would start lashing out at it on the internet, or writing letters to the network, or start protesting the show or something. I would have to be a generally bitter and angry and vindictive person to actually go to such lengths over something so ridiculously petty.
And then I realize that this isn't a nationally syndicated show, it's some nerds playing video games on the internet, and then I wonder seriously what in the fuck is wrong with some people.
Sorry if I made anyone butthurt that's just my 2 cents.
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On May 08 2012 14:26 lorkac wrote:Show nested quote +On May 08 2012 14:21 msl wrote:On May 08 2012 14:00 lorkac wrote:On May 08 2012 13:57 MercilessMonkey wrote:On May 08 2012 13:28 lorkac wrote:On May 08 2012 13:05 Chocobo wrote:On May 08 2012 12:36 hasuterrans wrote:On May 08 2012 12:22 Chocobo wrote:On May 08 2012 12:00 revel8 wrote:On May 08 2012 11:48 Chocobo wrote:
[quote]
Translation: "haha, those silly groups with their strange moral code, trying to control the actions of others... what a bunch of crazies. Luckily I follow the correct and accurate set of morals, and am completely justified in my attempts to control others with it."
[quote]
Like I said, you need to get your head examined. If you are unable to see the difference between supporting the right to use free speech without losing your job and supporting racism, then something isn't working right in there.
[quote]
There is no God but Allah, and Muhammad is his prophet! Allahu Akbar! Allahu Akbar!
[quote]
I take no issue with the actions of Quantic or Razer. They did what they had to do.
[quote]
If everyone agreed with me, there would be no outcry and no reason for sponsors to leave. We'd have an uncensored community where players wouldn't be afraid to express unusual or unpopular opinions out of fear of punishment. Sounds just fine to me.
You continue to embarrass yourself. You have no arguments except that you are appear unhappy that racism is now marginalised by society. You have decided in your mind that I am pro-racism and that everything I say is some invented argument in order to support racism. That is not the case. You need to wrap your mind around the fact that I am talking about free speech, not racism. Do you believe that rappers should be banned from using the word "nigger" in their songs, under penalty of losing their jobs? Do you believe that the TV show South Park should be pulled off the air? Do you think movies should not be allowed to have racist characters in them? I don't. I think all of these things should be allowed, and people who find that material offensive should simply avoid it. And this is exactly the same kind of situation... except in our case, the TL morality police decided to petition against the offensive material instead of simply ignoring it. This isn't a free speech debate lol. Destiny is not some kind of victim or free speech martyr. He's still free to say whatever he wants on his stream. No one is forcing Destiny to say or not say anything. Destiny was a brand ambassador for Razer by being a part of Quantic. A lot people use Razer products and don't want them supporting players who promote racist and homophobic language so they contacted Razer. Then Razer pulled the strings on Quantic. Shocking. This isn't a witch-hunt but a sequence of entirely predictable cause-and-effect events that have played themselves out in many competitive arenas. Furthermore, Destiny is still free to find a sponsor who will tolerate his language and support him. I hate that argument. "He's free to say whatever he wants, but he should be prepared to accept the punishment for it". Newsflash... if there's a punishment for unpopular speech, then it isn't exactly free speech. I'm sure some Chinese officials would agree that their citizens are free to talk about the Tiananmen Square Massacre, just as long as they're prepared to accept the jail time that comes afterwards. Yes, I'm aware that the technical definition of free speech involves the right to speech without fear of punishment from law enforcement. But by going the angry mob route, people are creating their own unwritten laws and enforcing vigilante justice, which is worse than the "crime" of calling someone a nasty name. To those who support the idea of emailing Razer and getting Destiny fired- what's wrong with the concept of "if you don't like it, don't watch it"? I agree. People sending their thoughts to sponsors is an excellent example of Free Speech in action. Its stupid that there are people out there who want to limit people's rights to send whatever speech they want to the sponsors of a player. If you are against Racism, then you should be okay with people sending letters to sponsors. If you are pro-free speech, then you should be okay with people exercising free speech and sending letters to sponsors. If you are pro racism, then you should be against the sending of letters to sponsors. I am against racism. I am not okay with people immediately sending letters to sponsors. It is even worse when some of the people doing it were people who didn't watch his stream in the first place. Choosing a course of action which doesn't particularly harm the alleged racist, but could seriously impact a bunch of innocent people on his team does not make sense. That is not the only anti-racism course of action, believe it or not. What a ridiculous argument. Just because some people don't agree with your point of view doesn't mean that they're all pro racism. Keep your terrible straw-man arguments out of it. Not saying I people should agree with me. I'm saying if everyone is free to speak their mind--that should also include those people who enjoy sending letters to sponsors. They are people too. They, as people, also have free speech. To be against them speaking their mind is to be against free speech. Why do you wish to shut up others who disagree with you? (Emphasis added) The fact that someone has a right (free speech) does not prevent him from showing restraint and judgement when excercising it. A dicussion about wether parts of the community show sound judgement when excercising their rights does not make one against people having that right. No one is questioning that people have the right to free speech. The question is, are they using it in a constructive manner. So which is more constructive, Destiny calling people gooks and niggers, or people who disagree with bigotry attempting to make the subculture they are part of be more tolerant?
You don't have to do that by messaging sponsors. It makes it harder for other players to get sponsors after that. They wont want to sponsor teams if they are constantly hearing shit from people online. Going to sponsors wont stop random retards on ladder from saying those things. I don't know what will but that wont. Let teams deal with it. They wont take it casually. They wont laugh at it. None of the teams like their players saying that either.
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On May 08 2012 13:28 lorkac wrote:Show nested quote +On May 08 2012 13:05 Chocobo wrote:On May 08 2012 12:36 hasuterrans wrote:On May 08 2012 12:22 Chocobo wrote:On May 08 2012 12:00 revel8 wrote:On May 08 2012 11:48 Chocobo wrote:On May 08 2012 11:02 revel8 wrote:On May 08 2012 10:40 Chocobo wrote:On May 08 2012 09:39 revel8 wrote:
Sad to see racist language still being defended by posters in this thread. They even pretend that those who object to racist language are the bigots. Must be the kkk demographic. Sad to see that so many people still don't get the point. We're not saying "racist language isn't such a big deal, just man up and ignore it". We're saying it's not your fucking job to be the internet morality police. It is not your place to demand that people clean up their language. It is not your place to punish those whose actions fall outside of what you consider to be acceptable. If you emailed Razer to complain, you are no different than Christian groups complaining about the TV show Glee because it promotes acceptance of gay people, or Muslims demanding that newspapers not print a cartoon of Muhammad. You don't get to demand that your moral code is followed by everyone else, under threat of whatever punishment you are able to come up with. That is a fucked up situation to occur and I will always stand against it. Especially when it will have the side effect of driving sponsors away from E-sports if it keeps happening. And if you read this post and think that my message is "Chocobo is someone who thinks it's ok to call people niggers and gooks" then you need to get your head examined. It is laughable that because I am opposed to racism you imply I am bigoted and compare my stance of opposing racism to those who display homophobic behaviour or religious fundamentalism. Translation: "haha, those silly groups with their strange moral code, trying to control the actions of others... what a bunch of crazies. Luckily I follow the correct and accurate set of morals, and am completely justified in my attempts to control others with it." So being opposed to racism is now an example of bigotry? Hilarious. You are just embarrassing yourself now in your desperation to defend racist comments. Like I said, you need to get your head examined. If you are unable to see the difference between supporting the right to use free speech without losing your job and supporting racism, then something isn't working right in there.
My moral code is the code of modern progressive society in which racism is not tolerated but opposed, if your personal moral code is lacking and anachronistic then that is not my problem, it's yours.
There is no God but Allah, and Muhammad is his prophet! Allahu Akbar! Allahu Akbar! What you cannot seem to stomach is that the sponsors agreed with me that his behaviour was unacceptable. It is Destiny and his ungoverned behaviour that was likely to turn away sponsors from the scene. I take no issue with the actions of Quantic or Razer. They did what they had to do. If everyone in the SC2 community agreed with you then the sponsors would all leave because they cannot be associated with racial abuse and those who condone it. If everyone agreed with me, there would be no outcry and no reason for sponsors to leave. We'd have an uncensored community where players wouldn't be afraid to express unusual or unpopular opinions out of fear of punishment. Sounds just fine to me. You continue to embarrass yourself. You have no arguments except that you are appear unhappy that racism is now marginalised by society. You have decided in your mind that I am pro-racism and that everything I say is some invented argument in order to support racism. That is not the case. You need to wrap your mind around the fact that I am talking about free speech, not racism. Do you believe that rappers should be banned from using the word "nigger" in their songs, under penalty of losing their jobs? Do you believe that the TV show South Park should be pulled off the air? Do you think movies should not be allowed to have racist characters in them? I don't. I think all of these things should be allowed, and people who find that material offensive should simply avoid it. And this is exactly the same kind of situation... except in our case, the TL morality police decided to petition against the offensive material instead of simply ignoring it. This isn't a free speech debate lol. Destiny is not some kind of victim or free speech martyr. He's still free to say whatever he wants on his stream. No one is forcing Destiny to say or not say anything. Destiny was a brand ambassador for Razer by being a part of Quantic. A lot people use Razer products and don't want them supporting players who promote racist and homophobic language so they contacted Razer. Then Razer pulled the strings on Quantic. Shocking. This isn't a witch-hunt but a sequence of entirely predictable cause-and-effect events that have played themselves out in many competitive arenas. Furthermore, Destiny is still free to find a sponsor who will tolerate his language and support him. I hate that argument. "He's free to say whatever he wants, but he should be prepared to accept the punishment for it". Newsflash... if there's a punishment for unpopular speech, then it isn't exactly free speech. I'm sure some Chinese officials would agree that their citizens are free to talk about the Tiananmen Square Massacre, just as long as they're prepared to accept the jail time that comes afterwards. Yes, I'm aware that the technical definition of free speech involves the right to speech without fear of punishment from law enforcement. But by going the angry mob route, people are creating their own unwritten laws and enforcing vigilante justice, which is worse than the "crime" of calling someone a nasty name. To those who support the idea of emailing Razer and getting Destiny fired- what's wrong with the concept of "if you don't like it, don't watch it"? I agree. People sending their thoughts to sponsors is an excellent example of Free Speech in action. Its stupid that there are people out there who want to limit people's rights to send whatever speech they want to the sponsors of a player. If you are against Racism, then you should be okay with people sending letters to sponsors. If you are pro-free speech, then you should be okay with people exercising free speech and sending letters to sponsors. If you are pro racism, then you should be against the sending of letters to sponsors.
I support the legal right to do all of these things. But that does not make them the right thing to do.
If your neighbor says some unpleasant things to you, you are within your legal rights to monitor the decibel levels when he throws a party and call the police if it gets too loud. You are within your rights to call the homeowners association in your neighborhood and have him reprimanded if his grass gets too tall, or if he plants flowers in an unapproved area. You are within your rights to talk to all of your other neighbors and tell them stories about things he has done wrong, and convince them to join you in treating him negatively.
Or you could just ignore him and his unpleasant opinions. I believe this is the better choice.
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On May 08 2012 13:29 Dfgj wrote:Show nested quote +On May 08 2012 13:05 Chocobo wrote:On May 08 2012 12:36 hasuterrans wrote:On May 08 2012 12:22 Chocobo wrote:On May 08 2012 12:00 revel8 wrote:On May 08 2012 11:48 Chocobo wrote:On May 08 2012 11:02 revel8 wrote:On May 08 2012 10:40 Chocobo wrote:On May 08 2012 09:39 revel8 wrote:
Sad to see racist language still being defended by posters in this thread. They even pretend that those who object to racist language are the bigots. Must be the kkk demographic. Sad to see that so many people still don't get the point. We're not saying "racist language isn't such a big deal, just man up and ignore it". We're saying it's not your fucking job to be the internet morality police. It is not your place to demand that people clean up their language. It is not your place to punish those whose actions fall outside of what you consider to be acceptable. If you emailed Razer to complain, you are no different than Christian groups complaining about the TV show Glee because it promotes acceptance of gay people, or Muslims demanding that newspapers not print a cartoon of Muhammad. You don't get to demand that your moral code is followed by everyone else, under threat of whatever punishment you are able to come up with. That is a fucked up situation to occur and I will always stand against it. Especially when it will have the side effect of driving sponsors away from E-sports if it keeps happening. And if you read this post and think that my message is "Chocobo is someone who thinks it's ok to call people niggers and gooks" then you need to get your head examined. It is laughable that because I am opposed to racism you imply I am bigoted and compare my stance of opposing racism to those who display homophobic behaviour or religious fundamentalism. Translation: "haha, those silly groups with their strange moral code, trying to control the actions of others... what a bunch of crazies. Luckily I follow the correct and accurate set of morals, and am completely justified in my attempts to control others with it." So being opposed to racism is now an example of bigotry? Hilarious. You are just embarrassing yourself now in your desperation to defend racist comments. Like I said, you need to get your head examined. If you are unable to see the difference between supporting the right to use free speech without losing your job and supporting racism, then something isn't working right in there.
My moral code is the code of modern progressive society in which racism is not tolerated but opposed, if your personal moral code is lacking and anachronistic then that is not my problem, it's yours.
There is no God but Allah, and Muhammad is his prophet! Allahu Akbar! Allahu Akbar! What you cannot seem to stomach is that the sponsors agreed with me that his behaviour was unacceptable. It is Destiny and his ungoverned behaviour that was likely to turn away sponsors from the scene. I take no issue with the actions of Quantic or Razer. They did what they had to do. If everyone in the SC2 community agreed with you then the sponsors would all leave because they cannot be associated with racial abuse and those who condone it. If everyone agreed with me, there would be no outcry and no reason for sponsors to leave. We'd have an uncensored community where players wouldn't be afraid to express unusual or unpopular opinions out of fear of punishment. Sounds just fine to me. You continue to embarrass yourself. You have no arguments except that you are appear unhappy that racism is now marginalised by society. You have decided in your mind that I am pro-racism and that everything I say is some invented argument in order to support racism. That is not the case. You need to wrap your mind around the fact that I am talking about free speech, not racism. Do you believe that rappers should be banned from using the word "nigger" in their songs, under penalty of losing their jobs? Do you believe that the TV show South Park should be pulled off the air? Do you think movies should not be allowed to have racist characters in them? I don't. I think all of these things should be allowed, and people who find that material offensive should simply avoid it. And this is exactly the same kind of situation... except in our case, the TL morality police decided to petition against the offensive material instead of simply ignoring it. This isn't a free speech debate lol. Destiny is not some kind of victim or free speech martyr. He's still free to say whatever he wants on his stream. No one is forcing Destiny to say or not say anything. Destiny was a brand ambassador for Razer by being a part of Quantic. A lot people use Razer products and don't want them supporting players who promote racist and homophobic language so they contacted Razer. Then Razer pulled the strings on Quantic. Shocking. This isn't a witch-hunt but a sequence of entirely predictable cause-and-effect events that have played themselves out in many competitive arenas. Furthermore, Destiny is still free to find a sponsor who will tolerate his language and support him. I hate that argument. "He's free to say whatever he wants, but he should be prepared to accept the punishment for it". Newsflash... if there's a punishment for unpopular speech, then it isn't exactly free speech. Free speech is protection from government reprisal, it doesn't mean other people aren't allowed to take personal offense. Private punishment (so long as it's within the law) still holds - you can be fired, ostracized, etc etc
I'm well aware that free speech doesn't mean freedom to say anything without people being offended. People have every right to be offended and to dislike a person who uses unpopular speech. But I do not believe it should be within their power to have him fired from his job.
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On May 08 2012 13:53 Mohdoo wrote:Show nested quote +On May 08 2012 13:14 Chocobo wrote:On May 08 2012 12:49 Fubi wrote:
But who are we to decide what the CORRECT course of action is? We are human beings with brains. We can evaluate the options and determine which option is the most appropriate for the situation, and the most fair for all parties involved. The most appropriate option was to stop watching/supporting the things that offend you. You're actually trying to say that every single person should decide on the exact same thing? All while you bring up the point that we have brains?
Yes. Much in the same way that we collectively determine that the punishment for hitting a teacher in school is not a verbal warning... not a 40 year jail sentence... but expulsion from the school. We should be able to gather the facts, evaluate the situation, and come to a reasonable conclusion. It works much better than a group of people escalating in size and negativity until an angry mob is formed, ready to follow the first idea that allows them to take revenge on the thing they don't like.
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On May 08 2012 14:38 mrtomjones wrote:Show nested quote +On May 08 2012 14:26 lorkac wrote:On May 08 2012 14:21 msl wrote:On May 08 2012 14:00 lorkac wrote:On May 08 2012 13:57 MercilessMonkey wrote:On May 08 2012 13:28 lorkac wrote:On May 08 2012 13:05 Chocobo wrote:On May 08 2012 12:36 hasuterrans wrote:On May 08 2012 12:22 Chocobo wrote:On May 08 2012 12:00 revel8 wrote:
[quote]
You continue to embarrass yourself. You have no arguments except that you are appear unhappy that racism is now marginalised by society. You have decided in your mind that I am pro-racism and that everything I say is some invented argument in order to support racism. That is not the case. You need to wrap your mind around the fact that I am talking about free speech, not racism. Do you believe that rappers should be banned from using the word "nigger" in their songs, under penalty of losing their jobs? Do you believe that the TV show South Park should be pulled off the air? Do you think movies should not be allowed to have racist characters in them? I don't. I think all of these things should be allowed, and people who find that material offensive should simply avoid it. And this is exactly the same kind of situation... except in our case, the TL morality police decided to petition against the offensive material instead of simply ignoring it. This isn't a free speech debate lol. Destiny is not some kind of victim or free speech martyr. He's still free to say whatever he wants on his stream. No one is forcing Destiny to say or not say anything. Destiny was a brand ambassador for Razer by being a part of Quantic. A lot people use Razer products and don't want them supporting players who promote racist and homophobic language so they contacted Razer. Then Razer pulled the strings on Quantic. Shocking. This isn't a witch-hunt but a sequence of entirely predictable cause-and-effect events that have played themselves out in many competitive arenas. Furthermore, Destiny is still free to find a sponsor who will tolerate his language and support him. I hate that argument. "He's free to say whatever he wants, but he should be prepared to accept the punishment for it". Newsflash... if there's a punishment for unpopular speech, then it isn't exactly free speech. I'm sure some Chinese officials would agree that their citizens are free to talk about the Tiananmen Square Massacre, just as long as they're prepared to accept the jail time that comes afterwards. Yes, I'm aware that the technical definition of free speech involves the right to speech without fear of punishment from law enforcement. But by going the angry mob route, people are creating their own unwritten laws and enforcing vigilante justice, which is worse than the "crime" of calling someone a nasty name. To those who support the idea of emailing Razer and getting Destiny fired- what's wrong with the concept of "if you don't like it, don't watch it"? I agree. People sending their thoughts to sponsors is an excellent example of Free Speech in action. Its stupid that there are people out there who want to limit people's rights to send whatever speech they want to the sponsors of a player. If you are against Racism, then you should be okay with people sending letters to sponsors. If you are pro-free speech, then you should be okay with people exercising free speech and sending letters to sponsors. If you are pro racism, then you should be against the sending of letters to sponsors. I am against racism. I am not okay with people immediately sending letters to sponsors. It is even worse when some of the people doing it were people who didn't watch his stream in the first place. Choosing a course of action which doesn't particularly harm the alleged racist, but could seriously impact a bunch of innocent people on his team does not make sense. That is not the only anti-racism course of action, believe it or not. What a ridiculous argument. Just because some people don't agree with your point of view doesn't mean that they're all pro racism. Keep your terrible straw-man arguments out of it. Not saying I people should agree with me. I'm saying if everyone is free to speak their mind--that should also include those people who enjoy sending letters to sponsors. They are people too. They, as people, also have free speech. To be against them speaking their mind is to be against free speech. Why do you wish to shut up others who disagree with you? (Emphasis added) The fact that someone has a right (free speech) does not prevent him from showing restraint and judgement when excercising it. A dicussion about wether parts of the community show sound judgement when excercising their rights does not make one against people having that right. No one is questioning that people have the right to free speech. The question is, are they using it in a constructive manner. So which is more constructive, Destiny calling people gooks and niggers, or people who disagree with bigotry attempting to make the subculture they are part of be more tolerant? You don't have to do that by messaging sponsors. It makes it harder for other players to get sponsors after that. They wont want to sponsor teams if they are constantly hearing shit from people online. Going to sponsors wont stop random retards on ladder from saying those things. I don't know what will but that wont. Let teams deal with it. They wont take it casually. They wont laugh at it. None of the teams like their players saying that either.
Of course you don't *have* to talk to sponsors much like players don't *have* to be bigots. But freedom of speech allows both. Players are allowed to be bigots and viewers are allowed to complain. If players use racial slurs--it should not be surprising that people complain. If people complain it shouldn't be surprising that sponsors get scared and pull players.
Neither side should be attacked by the community for practicing free speech. You can't say it is okay to police the opinions of viewers while saying it's evil to police the opinions of players. Teams and players could be more careful about what they say or take the risk of repercussions.
Please understand that it was either Razer, Quantic, or both that decided to let go of Destiny--not the community. The only reason Razer would be scared to be labeled as supporters of bigotry is because bigotry is not part of the Razer marketing plan.
For example.
Calling Comedy Central and telling them that Southpark is saying racial slurs will not produce any repercussions because the whole point of the show and the reason the show is being funded is because it uses racial slurs. While Destiny might interfere with Razer's marketing goals, Southpark does not hinder Comedy Central's marketing goals.
Everyone is welcome to be bigots or be letter writers. Don't police either, but be prepared to face repercussions for your actions.
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On May 08 2012 14:46 Chocobo wrote:Show nested quote +On May 08 2012 13:53 Mohdoo wrote:On May 08 2012 13:14 Chocobo wrote:On May 08 2012 12:49 Fubi wrote:
But who are we to decide what the CORRECT course of action is? We are human beings with brains. We can evaluate the options and determine which option is the most appropriate for the situation, and the most fair for all parties involved. The most appropriate option was to stop watching/supporting the things that offend you. You're actually trying to say that every single person should decide on the exact same thing? All while you bring up the point that we have brains? Yes. Much in the same way that we collectively determine that the punishment for hitting a teacher in school is not a verbal warning... not a 40 year jail sentence... but expulsion from the school. We should be able to gather the facts, evaluate the situation, and come to a reasonable conclusion. It works much better than a group of people escalating in size and negativity until an angry mob is formed, ready to follow the first idea that allows them to take revenge on the thing they don't like.
Cool. Lets look at the facts.
Razer does not want to sponsor bigots.
Upon finding out that a public figure in their payroll was a bigot--he was let go.
Easy peasy. Why talk about it on TL? It was the right thing befitting of the goals of Razer. Have a problem--send a letter to Razer.
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On May 08 2012 14:41 Chocobo wrote:Show nested quote +On May 08 2012 13:29 Dfgj wrote:On May 08 2012 13:05 Chocobo wrote:On May 08 2012 12:36 hasuterrans wrote:On May 08 2012 12:22 Chocobo wrote:On May 08 2012 12:00 revel8 wrote:On May 08 2012 11:48 Chocobo wrote:On May 08 2012 11:02 revel8 wrote:On May 08 2012 10:40 Chocobo wrote:On May 08 2012 09:39 revel8 wrote:
Sad to see racist language still being defended by posters in this thread. They even pretend that those who object to racist language are the bigots. Must be the kkk demographic. Sad to see that so many people still don't get the point. We're not saying "racist language isn't such a big deal, just man up and ignore it". We're saying it's not your fucking job to be the internet morality police. It is not your place to demand that people clean up their language. It is not your place to punish those whose actions fall outside of what you consider to be acceptable. If you emailed Razer to complain, you are no different than Christian groups complaining about the TV show Glee because it promotes acceptance of gay people, or Muslims demanding that newspapers not print a cartoon of Muhammad. You don't get to demand that your moral code is followed by everyone else, under threat of whatever punishment you are able to come up with. That is a fucked up situation to occur and I will always stand against it. Especially when it will have the side effect of driving sponsors away from E-sports if it keeps happening. And if you read this post and think that my message is "Chocobo is someone who thinks it's ok to call people niggers and gooks" then you need to get your head examined. It is laughable that because I am opposed to racism you imply I am bigoted and compare my stance of opposing racism to those who display homophobic behaviour or religious fundamentalism. Translation: "haha, those silly groups with their strange moral code, trying to control the actions of others... what a bunch of crazies. Luckily I follow the correct and accurate set of morals, and am completely justified in my attempts to control others with it." So being opposed to racism is now an example of bigotry? Hilarious. You are just embarrassing yourself now in your desperation to defend racist comments. Like I said, you need to get your head examined. If you are unable to see the difference between supporting the right to use free speech without losing your job and supporting racism, then something isn't working right in there.
My moral code is the code of modern progressive society in which racism is not tolerated but opposed, if your personal moral code is lacking and anachronistic then that is not my problem, it's yours.
There is no God but Allah, and Muhammad is his prophet! Allahu Akbar! Allahu Akbar! What you cannot seem to stomach is that the sponsors agreed with me that his behaviour was unacceptable. It is Destiny and his ungoverned behaviour that was likely to turn away sponsors from the scene. I take no issue with the actions of Quantic or Razer. They did what they had to do. If everyone in the SC2 community agreed with you then the sponsors would all leave because they cannot be associated with racial abuse and those who condone it. If everyone agreed with me, there would be no outcry and no reason for sponsors to leave. We'd have an uncensored community where players wouldn't be afraid to express unusual or unpopular opinions out of fear of punishment. Sounds just fine to me. You continue to embarrass yourself. You have no arguments except that you are appear unhappy that racism is now marginalised by society. You have decided in your mind that I am pro-racism and that everything I say is some invented argument in order to support racism. That is not the case. You need to wrap your mind around the fact that I am talking about free speech, not racism. Do you believe that rappers should be banned from using the word "nigger" in their songs, under penalty of losing their jobs? Do you believe that the TV show South Park should be pulled off the air? Do you think movies should not be allowed to have racist characters in them? I don't. I think all of these things should be allowed, and people who find that material offensive should simply avoid it. And this is exactly the same kind of situation... except in our case, the TL morality police decided to petition against the offensive material instead of simply ignoring it. This isn't a free speech debate lol. Destiny is not some kind of victim or free speech martyr. He's still free to say whatever he wants on his stream. No one is forcing Destiny to say or not say anything. Destiny was a brand ambassador for Razer by being a part of Quantic. A lot people use Razer products and don't want them supporting players who promote racist and homophobic language so they contacted Razer. Then Razer pulled the strings on Quantic. Shocking. This isn't a witch-hunt but a sequence of entirely predictable cause-and-effect events that have played themselves out in many competitive arenas. Furthermore, Destiny is still free to find a sponsor who will tolerate his language and support him. I hate that argument. "He's free to say whatever he wants, but he should be prepared to accept the punishment for it". Newsflash... if there's a punishment for unpopular speech, then it isn't exactly free speech. Free speech is protection from government reprisal, it doesn't mean other people aren't allowed to take personal offense. Private punishment (so long as it's within the law) still holds - you can be fired, ostracized, etc etc I'm well aware that free speech doesn't mean freedom to say anything without people being offended. People have every right to be offended and to dislike a person who uses unpopular speech. But I do not believe it should be within their power to have him fired from his job.
It's not within their power--it's within Razer's and Quantic's power.
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On May 08 2012 14:39 Chocobo wrote:Show nested quote +On May 08 2012 13:28 lorkac wrote:On May 08 2012 13:05 Chocobo wrote:On May 08 2012 12:36 hasuterrans wrote:On May 08 2012 12:22 Chocobo wrote:On May 08 2012 12:00 revel8 wrote:On May 08 2012 11:48 Chocobo wrote:On May 08 2012 11:02 revel8 wrote:On May 08 2012 10:40 Chocobo wrote:On May 08 2012 09:39 revel8 wrote:
Sad to see racist language still being defended by posters in this thread. They even pretend that those who object to racist language are the bigots. Must be the kkk demographic. Sad to see that so many people still don't get the point. We're not saying "racist language isn't such a big deal, just man up and ignore it". We're saying it's not your fucking job to be the internet morality police. It is not your place to demand that people clean up their language. It is not your place to punish those whose actions fall outside of what you consider to be acceptable. If you emailed Razer to complain, you are no different than Christian groups complaining about the TV show Glee because it promotes acceptance of gay people, or Muslims demanding that newspapers not print a cartoon of Muhammad. You don't get to demand that your moral code is followed by everyone else, under threat of whatever punishment you are able to come up with. That is a fucked up situation to occur and I will always stand against it. Especially when it will have the side effect of driving sponsors away from E-sports if it keeps happening. And if you read this post and think that my message is "Chocobo is someone who thinks it's ok to call people niggers and gooks" then you need to get your head examined. It is laughable that because I am opposed to racism you imply I am bigoted and compare my stance of opposing racism to those who display homophobic behaviour or religious fundamentalism. Translation: "haha, those silly groups with their strange moral code, trying to control the actions of others... what a bunch of crazies. Luckily I follow the correct and accurate set of morals, and am completely justified in my attempts to control others with it." So being opposed to racism is now an example of bigotry? Hilarious. You are just embarrassing yourself now in your desperation to defend racist comments. Like I said, you need to get your head examined. If you are unable to see the difference between supporting the right to use free speech without losing your job and supporting racism, then something isn't working right in there.
My moral code is the code of modern progressive society in which racism is not tolerated but opposed, if your personal moral code is lacking and anachronistic then that is not my problem, it's yours.
There is no God but Allah, and Muhammad is his prophet! Allahu Akbar! Allahu Akbar! What you cannot seem to stomach is that the sponsors agreed with me that his behaviour was unacceptable. It is Destiny and his ungoverned behaviour that was likely to turn away sponsors from the scene. I take no issue with the actions of Quantic or Razer. They did what they had to do. If everyone in the SC2 community agreed with you then the sponsors would all leave because they cannot be associated with racial abuse and those who condone it. If everyone agreed with me, there would be no outcry and no reason for sponsors to leave. We'd have an uncensored community where players wouldn't be afraid to express unusual or unpopular opinions out of fear of punishment. Sounds just fine to me. You continue to embarrass yourself. You have no arguments except that you are appear unhappy that racism is now marginalised by society. You have decided in your mind that I am pro-racism and that everything I say is some invented argument in order to support racism. That is not the case. You need to wrap your mind around the fact that I am talking about free speech, not racism. Do you believe that rappers should be banned from using the word "nigger" in their songs, under penalty of losing their jobs? Do you believe that the TV show South Park should be pulled off the air? Do you think movies should not be allowed to have racist characters in them? I don't. I think all of these things should be allowed, and people who find that material offensive should simply avoid it. And this is exactly the same kind of situation... except in our case, the TL morality police decided to petition against the offensive material instead of simply ignoring it. This isn't a free speech debate lol. Destiny is not some kind of victim or free speech martyr. He's still free to say whatever he wants on his stream. No one is forcing Destiny to say or not say anything. Destiny was a brand ambassador for Razer by being a part of Quantic. A lot people use Razer products and don't want them supporting players who promote racist and homophobic language so they contacted Razer. Then Razer pulled the strings on Quantic. Shocking. This isn't a witch-hunt but a sequence of entirely predictable cause-and-effect events that have played themselves out in many competitive arenas. Furthermore, Destiny is still free to find a sponsor who will tolerate his language and support him. I hate that argument. "He's free to say whatever he wants, but he should be prepared to accept the punishment for it". Newsflash... if there's a punishment for unpopular speech, then it isn't exactly free speech. I'm sure some Chinese officials would agree that their citizens are free to talk about the Tiananmen Square Massacre, just as long as they're prepared to accept the jail time that comes afterwards. Yes, I'm aware that the technical definition of free speech involves the right to speech without fear of punishment from law enforcement. But by going the angry mob route, people are creating their own unwritten laws and enforcing vigilante justice, which is worse than the "crime" of calling someone a nasty name. To those who support the idea of emailing Razer and getting Destiny fired- what's wrong with the concept of "if you don't like it, don't watch it"? I agree. People sending their thoughts to sponsors is an excellent example of Free Speech in action. Its stupid that there are people out there who want to limit people's rights to send whatever speech they want to the sponsors of a player. If you are against Racism, then you should be okay with people sending letters to sponsors. If you are pro-free speech, then you should be okay with people exercising free speech and sending letters to sponsors. If you are pro racism, then you should be against the sending of letters to sponsors. I support the legal right to do all of these things. But that does not make them the right thing to do. If your neighbor says some unpleasant things to you, you are within your legal rights to monitor the decibel levels when he throws a party and call the police if it gets too loud. You are within your rights to call the homeowners association in your neighborhood and have him reprimanded if his grass gets too tall, or if he plants flowers in an unapproved area. You are within your rights to talk to all of your other neighbors and tell them stories about things he has done wrong, and convince them to join you in treating him negatively. Or you could just ignore him and his unpleasant opinions. I believe this is the better choice.
Depends on what he's saying right?
If he's threatening to hurt you--then calling the authorities is the normal thing to do.
If he's simply insulting you personally--then you can complain to the homeowners association because paying $300,000-$600,000 to live where people attack you constantly is not worth the money.
If he is simply being offensive and cursing at your neighbors, then you are in the moral quandary of doing the right thing (helping your neighbor that is being belittled) or doing the apathetic thing (pretending nothing is wrong.)
For example, a lot of Germans during WW2 didn't say anything about what was happening with the Jews because it wasn't their problem--why bother saying anything if it didn't affect them anyway? On the other hand, Salem witch trials got out of hand with the witch hunts. The correct answer is that there is no black and white answer. Saying nothing only sometimes is the right choice much like saying something is sometimes the right choice. You cannot define when it is the right choice simply because you personally feel it is.
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I think our "witch hunts" are actually help e-sports grow. This shows that starcraft isnt just a game but is actually taken seriously. If we just let everything slide by and turn a blind eye towards obvious stupid acts we would be like any other game where its just a bunch raging nerds swearing and yelling at each other through a monitor. By punishing acts of racism, sexism, etc... we show players (and others) that if you want to be a PROFESSIONAL gamer, you not only represent yourself but your team and your sponsors, just like every other PROFESSIONAL in the world.
The fact that we are punishing these acts shows that starcraft 2 and esports is trying to become a serious profession and business. No big business would want someone who lashes out at the community to represent them, and no team should either.
Those that believe that hateful acts, from reputable people in the community, should go unpunished are those that don't understand how much it would hurt the growth of esports into a real PROFESSIONAL SPORT. We want to show outsiders looking in that we are not simply another video game but a way of life.
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On May 08 2012 15:22 lorkac wrote:Show nested quote +On May 08 2012 14:41 Chocobo wrote:On May 08 2012 13:29 Dfgj wrote:On May 08 2012 13:05 Chocobo wrote:On May 08 2012 12:36 hasuterrans wrote:On May 08 2012 12:22 Chocobo wrote:On May 08 2012 12:00 revel8 wrote:On May 08 2012 11:48 Chocobo wrote:On May 08 2012 11:02 revel8 wrote:On May 08 2012 10:40 Chocobo wrote:
[quote]
Sad to see that so many people still don't get the point. We're not saying "racist language isn't such a big deal, just man up and ignore it".
We're saying it's not your fucking job to be the internet morality police. It is not your place to demand that people clean up their language. It is not your place to punish those whose actions fall outside of what you consider to be acceptable.
If you emailed Razer to complain, you are no different than Christian groups complaining about the TV show Glee because it promotes acceptance of gay people, or Muslims demanding that newspapers not print a cartoon of Muhammad.
You don't get to demand that your moral code is followed by everyone else, under threat of whatever punishment you are able to come up with. That is a fucked up situation to occur and I will always stand against it. Especially when it will have the side effect of driving sponsors away from E-sports if it keeps happening.
And if you read this post and think that my message is "Chocobo is someone who thinks it's ok to call people niggers and gooks" then you need to get your head examined. It is laughable that because I am opposed to racism you imply I am bigoted and compare my stance of opposing racism to those who display homophobic behaviour or religious fundamentalism. Translation: "haha, those silly groups with their strange moral code, trying to control the actions of others... what a bunch of crazies. Luckily I follow the correct and accurate set of morals, and am completely justified in my attempts to control others with it." So being opposed to racism is now an example of bigotry? Hilarious. You are just embarrassing yourself now in your desperation to defend racist comments. Like I said, you need to get your head examined. If you are unable to see the difference between supporting the right to use free speech without losing your job and supporting racism, then something isn't working right in there.
My moral code is the code of modern progressive society in which racism is not tolerated but opposed, if your personal moral code is lacking and anachronistic then that is not my problem, it's yours.
There is no God but Allah, and Muhammad is his prophet! Allahu Akbar! Allahu Akbar! What you cannot seem to stomach is that the sponsors agreed with me that his behaviour was unacceptable. It is Destiny and his ungoverned behaviour that was likely to turn away sponsors from the scene. I take no issue with the actions of Quantic or Razer. They did what they had to do. If everyone in the SC2 community agreed with you then the sponsors would all leave because they cannot be associated with racial abuse and those who condone it. If everyone agreed with me, there would be no outcry and no reason for sponsors to leave. We'd have an uncensored community where players wouldn't be afraid to express unusual or unpopular opinions out of fear of punishment. Sounds just fine to me. You continue to embarrass yourself. You have no arguments except that you are appear unhappy that racism is now marginalised by society. You have decided in your mind that I am pro-racism and that everything I say is some invented argument in order to support racism. That is not the case. You need to wrap your mind around the fact that I am talking about free speech, not racism. Do you believe that rappers should be banned from using the word "nigger" in their songs, under penalty of losing their jobs? Do you believe that the TV show South Park should be pulled off the air? Do you think movies should not be allowed to have racist characters in them? I don't. I think all of these things should be allowed, and people who find that material offensive should simply avoid it. And this is exactly the same kind of situation... except in our case, the TL morality police decided to petition against the offensive material instead of simply ignoring it. This isn't a free speech debate lol. Destiny is not some kind of victim or free speech martyr. He's still free to say whatever he wants on his stream. No one is forcing Destiny to say or not say anything. Destiny was a brand ambassador for Razer by being a part of Quantic. A lot people use Razer products and don't want them supporting players who promote racist and homophobic language so they contacted Razer. Then Razer pulled the strings on Quantic. Shocking. This isn't a witch-hunt but a sequence of entirely predictable cause-and-effect events that have played themselves out in many competitive arenas. Furthermore, Destiny is still free to find a sponsor who will tolerate his language and support him. I hate that argument. "He's free to say whatever he wants, but he should be prepared to accept the punishment for it". Newsflash... if there's a punishment for unpopular speech, then it isn't exactly free speech. Free speech is protection from government reprisal, it doesn't mean other people aren't allowed to take personal offense. Private punishment (so long as it's within the law) still holds - you can be fired, ostracized, etc etc I'm well aware that free speech doesn't mean freedom to say anything without people being offended. People have every right to be offended and to dislike a person who uses unpopular speech. But I do not believe it should be within their power to have him fired from his job. It's not within their power--it's within Razer's and Quantic's power.
Do you think Quantic didn't know who Destiny was or how he acts on his stream? They were fine with it. He was forced to leave because the threats of negative publicity from an angry mob, none of whom would have ever had to see Destiny again if they just stopped watching his stream.
But instead they chose to take an act of revenge. They chose to play the role of morality police, and punish those they don't like, while completely ignoring any negative repercussions it would have for Quantic and the future sponsorship of SC2 competitions.
I can't understand why so many people are unable to see past the concept of "if someone does something bad, it's ok if bad things happen to them". Angry mobs should not be able to cause people to lose their jobs. What happened was not right.
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On May 08 2012 15:30 lorkac wrote:Show nested quote +On May 08 2012 14:39 Chocobo wrote:On May 08 2012 13:28 lorkac wrote:On May 08 2012 13:05 Chocobo wrote:On May 08 2012 12:36 hasuterrans wrote:On May 08 2012 12:22 Chocobo wrote:On May 08 2012 12:00 revel8 wrote:On May 08 2012 11:48 Chocobo wrote:On May 08 2012 11:02 revel8 wrote:On May 08 2012 10:40 Chocobo wrote:
[quote]
Sad to see that so many people still don't get the point. We're not saying "racist language isn't such a big deal, just man up and ignore it".
We're saying it's not your fucking job to be the internet morality police. It is not your place to demand that people clean up their language. It is not your place to punish those whose actions fall outside of what you consider to be acceptable.
If you emailed Razer to complain, you are no different than Christian groups complaining about the TV show Glee because it promotes acceptance of gay people, or Muslims demanding that newspapers not print a cartoon of Muhammad.
You don't get to demand that your moral code is followed by everyone else, under threat of whatever punishment you are able to come up with. That is a fucked up situation to occur and I will always stand against it. Especially when it will have the side effect of driving sponsors away from E-sports if it keeps happening.
And if you read this post and think that my message is "Chocobo is someone who thinks it's ok to call people niggers and gooks" then you need to get your head examined. It is laughable that because I am opposed to racism you imply I am bigoted and compare my stance of opposing racism to those who display homophobic behaviour or religious fundamentalism. Translation: "haha, those silly groups with their strange moral code, trying to control the actions of others... what a bunch of crazies. Luckily I follow the correct and accurate set of morals, and am completely justified in my attempts to control others with it." So being opposed to racism is now an example of bigotry? Hilarious. You are just embarrassing yourself now in your desperation to defend racist comments. Like I said, you need to get your head examined. If you are unable to see the difference between supporting the right to use free speech without losing your job and supporting racism, then something isn't working right in there.
My moral code is the code of modern progressive society in which racism is not tolerated but opposed, if your personal moral code is lacking and anachronistic then that is not my problem, it's yours.
There is no God but Allah, and Muhammad is his prophet! Allahu Akbar! Allahu Akbar! What you cannot seem to stomach is that the sponsors agreed with me that his behaviour was unacceptable. It is Destiny and his ungoverned behaviour that was likely to turn away sponsors from the scene. I take no issue with the actions of Quantic or Razer. They did what they had to do. If everyone in the SC2 community agreed with you then the sponsors would all leave because they cannot be associated with racial abuse and those who condone it. If everyone agreed with me, there would be no outcry and no reason for sponsors to leave. We'd have an uncensored community where players wouldn't be afraid to express unusual or unpopular opinions out of fear of punishment. Sounds just fine to me. You continue to embarrass yourself. You have no arguments except that you are appear unhappy that racism is now marginalised by society. You have decided in your mind that I am pro-racism and that everything I say is some invented argument in order to support racism. That is not the case. You need to wrap your mind around the fact that I am talking about free speech, not racism. Do you believe that rappers should be banned from using the word "nigger" in their songs, under penalty of losing their jobs? Do you believe that the TV show South Park should be pulled off the air? Do you think movies should not be allowed to have racist characters in them? I don't. I think all of these things should be allowed, and people who find that material offensive should simply avoid it. And this is exactly the same kind of situation... except in our case, the TL morality police decided to petition against the offensive material instead of simply ignoring it. This isn't a free speech debate lol. Destiny is not some kind of victim or free speech martyr. He's still free to say whatever he wants on his stream. No one is forcing Destiny to say or not say anything. Destiny was a brand ambassador for Razer by being a part of Quantic. A lot people use Razer products and don't want them supporting players who promote racist and homophobic language so they contacted Razer. Then Razer pulled the strings on Quantic. Shocking. This isn't a witch-hunt but a sequence of entirely predictable cause-and-effect events that have played themselves out in many competitive arenas. Furthermore, Destiny is still free to find a sponsor who will tolerate his language and support him. I hate that argument. "He's free to say whatever he wants, but he should be prepared to accept the punishment for it". Newsflash... if there's a punishment for unpopular speech, then it isn't exactly free speech. I'm sure some Chinese officials would agree that their citizens are free to talk about the Tiananmen Square Massacre, just as long as they're prepared to accept the jail time that comes afterwards. Yes, I'm aware that the technical definition of free speech involves the right to speech without fear of punishment from law enforcement. But by going the angry mob route, people are creating their own unwritten laws and enforcing vigilante justice, which is worse than the "crime" of calling someone a nasty name. To those who support the idea of emailing Razer and getting Destiny fired- what's wrong with the concept of "if you don't like it, don't watch it"? I agree. People sending their thoughts to sponsors is an excellent example of Free Speech in action. Its stupid that there are people out there who want to limit people's rights to send whatever speech they want to the sponsors of a player. If you are against Racism, then you should be okay with people sending letters to sponsors. If you are pro-free speech, then you should be okay with people exercising free speech and sending letters to sponsors. If you are pro racism, then you should be against the sending of letters to sponsors. I support the legal right to do all of these things. But that does not make them the right thing to do. If your neighbor says some unpleasant things to you, you are within your legal rights to monitor the decibel levels when he throws a party and call the police if it gets too loud. You are within your rights to call the homeowners association in your neighborhood and have him reprimanded if his grass gets too tall, or if he plants flowers in an unapproved area. You are within your rights to talk to all of your other neighbors and tell them stories about things he has done wrong, and convince them to join you in treating him negatively. Or you could just ignore him and his unpleasant opinions. I believe this is the better choice. Depends on what he's saying right? If he's threatening to hurt you--then calling the authorities is the normal thing to do. If he's simply insulting you personally--then you can complain to the homeowners association because paying $300,000-$600,000 to live where people attack you constantly is not worth the money. If he is simply being offensive and cursing at your neighbors, then you are in the moral quandary of doing the right thing (helping your neighbor that is being belittled) or doing the apathetic thing (pretending nothing is wrong.) For example, a lot of Germans during WW2 didn't say anything about what was happening with the Jews because it wasn't their problem--why bother saying anything if it didn't affect them anyway? On the other hand, Salem witch trials got out of hand with the witch hunts. The correct answer is that there is no black and white answer. Saying nothing only sometimes is the right choice much like saying something is sometimes the right choice. You cannot define when it is the right choice simply because you personally feel it is.
You're inventing extreme situations that have no relevance here. This is about someone saying a bad word on the internet.
When someone has a potty mouth (or should I say, potty fingers? it's not like he actually said any of these words), there is a right answer. You ignore him.
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I can't understand why so many people are unable to see past the concept of "if someone does something bad, it's ok if bad things happen to them". Angry mobs should not be able to cause people to lose their jobs. What happened was not right.
If you were a sponsor from Razer and you saw that one of your players has attracted a lot of negative attention and possibly portrays a negative image on Razer, would you continue to sponsor him, knowing that you most likely need to report to higher executives for your decisions?
Do you think that it was a correct decision of Quantic to take Destiny in knowing he is the way he is? We see this today in professional sports. If we look at a player like Terrel Ownens, he is still considered a great player but hes got a terrible attitude. In the beginning some teams wanted to still give him a chance because of his performance and capabilities. However, teams began to realize that players like that are not good for their image and promote a generally bad team atmosphere.
As professional esports grows teams will realize that its not just about picking up good players but also how those players behave and contribute to the overall image of the team as a whole. Better team image means more sponors, which means more money.
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On May 08 2012 15:41 Chocobo wrote:Show nested quote +On May 08 2012 15:22 lorkac wrote:On May 08 2012 14:41 Chocobo wrote:On May 08 2012 13:29 Dfgj wrote:On May 08 2012 13:05 Chocobo wrote:On May 08 2012 12:36 hasuterrans wrote:On May 08 2012 12:22 Chocobo wrote:On May 08 2012 12:00 revel8 wrote:On May 08 2012 11:48 Chocobo wrote:On May 08 2012 11:02 revel8 wrote:
[quote]
It is laughable that because I am opposed to racism you imply I am bigoted and compare my stance of opposing racism to those who display homophobic behaviour or religious fundamentalism. Translation: "haha, those silly groups with their strange moral code, trying to control the actions of others... what a bunch of crazies. Luckily I follow the correct and accurate set of morals, and am completely justified in my attempts to control others with it." So being opposed to racism is now an example of bigotry? Hilarious. You are just embarrassing yourself now in your desperation to defend racist comments. Like I said, you need to get your head examined. If you are unable to see the difference between supporting the right to use free speech without losing your job and supporting racism, then something isn't working right in there.
My moral code is the code of modern progressive society in which racism is not tolerated but opposed, if your personal moral code is lacking and anachronistic then that is not my problem, it's yours.
There is no God but Allah, and Muhammad is his prophet! Allahu Akbar! Allahu Akbar! What you cannot seem to stomach is that the sponsors agreed with me that his behaviour was unacceptable. It is Destiny and his ungoverned behaviour that was likely to turn away sponsors from the scene. I take no issue with the actions of Quantic or Razer. They did what they had to do. If everyone in the SC2 community agreed with you then the sponsors would all leave because they cannot be associated with racial abuse and those who condone it. If everyone agreed with me, there would be no outcry and no reason for sponsors to leave. We'd have an uncensored community where players wouldn't be afraid to express unusual or unpopular opinions out of fear of punishment. Sounds just fine to me. You continue to embarrass yourself. You have no arguments except that you are appear unhappy that racism is now marginalised by society. You have decided in your mind that I am pro-racism and that everything I say is some invented argument in order to support racism. That is not the case. You need to wrap your mind around the fact that I am talking about free speech, not racism. Do you believe that rappers should be banned from using the word "nigger" in their songs, under penalty of losing their jobs? Do you believe that the TV show South Park should be pulled off the air? Do you think movies should not be allowed to have racist characters in them? I don't. I think all of these things should be allowed, and people who find that material offensive should simply avoid it. And this is exactly the same kind of situation... except in our case, the TL morality police decided to petition against the offensive material instead of simply ignoring it. This isn't a free speech debate lol. Destiny is not some kind of victim or free speech martyr. He's still free to say whatever he wants on his stream. No one is forcing Destiny to say or not say anything. Destiny was a brand ambassador for Razer by being a part of Quantic. A lot people use Razer products and don't want them supporting players who promote racist and homophobic language so they contacted Razer. Then Razer pulled the strings on Quantic. Shocking. This isn't a witch-hunt but a sequence of entirely predictable cause-and-effect events that have played themselves out in many competitive arenas. Furthermore, Destiny is still free to find a sponsor who will tolerate his language and support him. I hate that argument. "He's free to say whatever he wants, but he should be prepared to accept the punishment for it". Newsflash... if there's a punishment for unpopular speech, then it isn't exactly free speech. Free speech is protection from government reprisal, it doesn't mean other people aren't allowed to take personal offense. Private punishment (so long as it's within the law) still holds - you can be fired, ostracized, etc etc I'm well aware that free speech doesn't mean freedom to say anything without people being offended. People have every right to be offended and to dislike a person who uses unpopular speech. But I do not believe it should be within their power to have him fired from his job. It's not within their power--it's within Razer's and Quantic's power. Do you think Quantic didn't know who Destiny was or how he acts on his stream? They were fine with it. He was forced to leave because the threats of negative publicity from an angry mob, none of whom would have ever had to see Destiny again if they just stopped watching his stream. But instead they chose to take an act of revenge. They chose to play the role of morality police, and punish those they don't like, while completely ignoring any negative repercussions it would have for Quantic and the future sponsorship of SC2 competitions. I can't understand why so many people are unable to see past the concept of "if someone does something bad, it's ok if bad things happen to them". Angry mobs should not be able to cause people to lose their jobs. What happened was not right.
How do you know they were fine with it? Do you have some inside source you wouldn't mind exposing to us? I'm guessing that Quantic was willing to brush aside Destiny's history because he brought the viewers, and thus money. But by signing him into the team, there was probably a cause in the contract about becoming a face of Quantic and it's sponsors, and to keep a certain level of professionalism in the public realm. I'd be shocked if there wasn't.
Quantic was willing to take Destiny in, a risk that they thought was worth it considering the amount of viewers Destiny has, but that didn't work out. I don't fault either side for this. Quantic took a calculated risk, while Destiny wouldn't Destiny (the brand) without his personality. Unfortunately, as we become further ingrained in this E-Sports ideal, fewer professional organizations will be willing to tolerate Destiny's behavior.
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On May 08 2012 15:47 Chocobo wrote:Show nested quote +On May 08 2012 15:30 lorkac wrote:On May 08 2012 14:39 Chocobo wrote:On May 08 2012 13:28 lorkac wrote:On May 08 2012 13:05 Chocobo wrote:On May 08 2012 12:36 hasuterrans wrote:On May 08 2012 12:22 Chocobo wrote:On May 08 2012 12:00 revel8 wrote:On May 08 2012 11:48 Chocobo wrote:On May 08 2012 11:02 revel8 wrote:
[quote]
It is laughable that because I am opposed to racism you imply I am bigoted and compare my stance of opposing racism to those who display homophobic behaviour or religious fundamentalism. Translation: "haha, those silly groups with their strange moral code, trying to control the actions of others... what a bunch of crazies. Luckily I follow the correct and accurate set of morals, and am completely justified in my attempts to control others with it." So being opposed to racism is now an example of bigotry? Hilarious. You are just embarrassing yourself now in your desperation to defend racist comments. Like I said, you need to get your head examined. If you are unable to see the difference between supporting the right to use free speech without losing your job and supporting racism, then something isn't working right in there.
My moral code is the code of modern progressive society in which racism is not tolerated but opposed, if your personal moral code is lacking and anachronistic then that is not my problem, it's yours.
There is no God but Allah, and Muhammad is his prophet! Allahu Akbar! Allahu Akbar! What you cannot seem to stomach is that the sponsors agreed with me that his behaviour was unacceptable. It is Destiny and his ungoverned behaviour that was likely to turn away sponsors from the scene. I take no issue with the actions of Quantic or Razer. They did what they had to do. If everyone in the SC2 community agreed with you then the sponsors would all leave because they cannot be associated with racial abuse and those who condone it. If everyone agreed with me, there would be no outcry and no reason for sponsors to leave. We'd have an uncensored community where players wouldn't be afraid to express unusual or unpopular opinions out of fear of punishment. Sounds just fine to me. You continue to embarrass yourself. You have no arguments except that you are appear unhappy that racism is now marginalised by society. You have decided in your mind that I am pro-racism and that everything I say is some invented argument in order to support racism. That is not the case. You need to wrap your mind around the fact that I am talking about free speech, not racism. Do you believe that rappers should be banned from using the word "nigger" in their songs, under penalty of losing their jobs? Do you believe that the TV show South Park should be pulled off the air? Do you think movies should not be allowed to have racist characters in them? I don't. I think all of these things should be allowed, and people who find that material offensive should simply avoid it. And this is exactly the same kind of situation... except in our case, the TL morality police decided to petition against the offensive material instead of simply ignoring it. This isn't a free speech debate lol. Destiny is not some kind of victim or free speech martyr. He's still free to say whatever he wants on his stream. No one is forcing Destiny to say or not say anything. Destiny was a brand ambassador for Razer by being a part of Quantic. A lot people use Razer products and don't want them supporting players who promote racist and homophobic language so they contacted Razer. Then Razer pulled the strings on Quantic. Shocking. This isn't a witch-hunt but a sequence of entirely predictable cause-and-effect events that have played themselves out in many competitive arenas. Furthermore, Destiny is still free to find a sponsor who will tolerate his language and support him. I hate that argument. "He's free to say whatever he wants, but he should be prepared to accept the punishment for it". Newsflash... if there's a punishment for unpopular speech, then it isn't exactly free speech. I'm sure some Chinese officials would agree that their citizens are free to talk about the Tiananmen Square Massacre, just as long as they're prepared to accept the jail time that comes afterwards. Yes, I'm aware that the technical definition of free speech involves the right to speech without fear of punishment from law enforcement. But by going the angry mob route, people are creating their own unwritten laws and enforcing vigilante justice, which is worse than the "crime" of calling someone a nasty name. To those who support the idea of emailing Razer and getting Destiny fired- what's wrong with the concept of "if you don't like it, don't watch it"? I agree. People sending their thoughts to sponsors is an excellent example of Free Speech in action. Its stupid that there are people out there who want to limit people's rights to send whatever speech they want to the sponsors of a player. If you are against Racism, then you should be okay with people sending letters to sponsors. If you are pro-free speech, then you should be okay with people exercising free speech and sending letters to sponsors. If you are pro racism, then you should be against the sending of letters to sponsors. I support the legal right to do all of these things. But that does not make them the right thing to do. If your neighbor says some unpleasant things to you, you are within your legal rights to monitor the decibel levels when he throws a party and call the police if it gets too loud. You are within your rights to call the homeowners association in your neighborhood and have him reprimanded if his grass gets too tall, or if he plants flowers in an unapproved area. You are within your rights to talk to all of your other neighbors and tell them stories about things he has done wrong, and convince them to join you in treating him negatively. Or you could just ignore him and his unpleasant opinions. I believe this is the better choice. Depends on what he's saying right? If he's threatening to hurt you--then calling the authorities is the normal thing to do. If he's simply insulting you personally--then you can complain to the homeowners association because paying $300,000-$600,000 to live where people attack you constantly is not worth the money. If he is simply being offensive and cursing at your neighbors, then you are in the moral quandary of doing the right thing (helping your neighbor that is being belittled) or doing the apathetic thing (pretending nothing is wrong.) For example, a lot of Germans during WW2 didn't say anything about what was happening with the Jews because it wasn't their problem--why bother saying anything if it didn't affect them anyway? On the other hand, Salem witch trials got out of hand with the witch hunts. The correct answer is that there is no black and white answer. Saying nothing only sometimes is the right choice much like saying something is sometimes the right choice. You cannot define when it is the right choice simply because you personally feel it is. You're inventing extreme situations that have no relevance here. This is about someone saying a bad word on the internet. When someone has a potty mouth (or should I say, potty fingers? it's not like he actually said any of these words), there is a right answer. You ignore him.
That's why the complaint was of Destiny saying fuck? Or ass? Or shit?
Oh right--being offensive was not the complaint, being bigoted was the complaint. How offended people were was not as important as the fact that he was being bigoted.
Destiny was not fired for being offensive, he was fired for being bigoted. Some people choose to let bigotry happen, others don't. Sometimes it's the right call to let bigotry happen, sometimes it isn't. For example, movies showing Nazi's as bad guys I am down for and I feel is an important step in the right direction for humanity. To stigmatize a social group that is so toxic to humanity as a whole is a good thing in my opinion. However, stigmatizing Vietnamese simply for disliking them is (to me) not good for humanity as whole.
Whether the bigotry Destiny showed us was good for humanity or not is up to his sponsors. If he wanted to be bigoted without repercussions, maybe he should have been funded by Comedy Central or Trey Parker instead of Razer.
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On May 08 2012 16:03 lorkac wrote:Show nested quote +On May 08 2012 15:47 Chocobo wrote:On May 08 2012 15:30 lorkac wrote:On May 08 2012 14:39 Chocobo wrote:On May 08 2012 13:28 lorkac wrote:On May 08 2012 13:05 Chocobo wrote:On May 08 2012 12:36 hasuterrans wrote:On May 08 2012 12:22 Chocobo wrote:On May 08 2012 12:00 revel8 wrote:On May 08 2012 11:48 Chocobo wrote:
[quote]
Translation: "haha, those silly groups with their strange moral code, trying to control the actions of others... what a bunch of crazies. Luckily I follow the correct and accurate set of morals, and am completely justified in my attempts to control others with it."
[quote]
Like I said, you need to get your head examined. If you are unable to see the difference between supporting the right to use free speech without losing your job and supporting racism, then something isn't working right in there.
[quote]
There is no God but Allah, and Muhammad is his prophet! Allahu Akbar! Allahu Akbar!
[quote]
I take no issue with the actions of Quantic or Razer. They did what they had to do.
[quote]
If everyone agreed with me, there would be no outcry and no reason for sponsors to leave. We'd have an uncensored community where players wouldn't be afraid to express unusual or unpopular opinions out of fear of punishment. Sounds just fine to me.
You continue to embarrass yourself. You have no arguments except that you are appear unhappy that racism is now marginalised by society. You have decided in your mind that I am pro-racism and that everything I say is some invented argument in order to support racism. That is not the case. You need to wrap your mind around the fact that I am talking about free speech, not racism. Do you believe that rappers should be banned from using the word "nigger" in their songs, under penalty of losing their jobs? Do you believe that the TV show South Park should be pulled off the air? Do you think movies should not be allowed to have racist characters in them? I don't. I think all of these things should be allowed, and people who find that material offensive should simply avoid it. And this is exactly the same kind of situation... except in our case, the TL morality police decided to petition against the offensive material instead of simply ignoring it. This isn't a free speech debate lol. Destiny is not some kind of victim or free speech martyr. He's still free to say whatever he wants on his stream. No one is forcing Destiny to say or not say anything. Destiny was a brand ambassador for Razer by being a part of Quantic. A lot people use Razer products and don't want them supporting players who promote racist and homophobic language so they contacted Razer. Then Razer pulled the strings on Quantic. Shocking. This isn't a witch-hunt but a sequence of entirely predictable cause-and-effect events that have played themselves out in many competitive arenas. Furthermore, Destiny is still free to find a sponsor who will tolerate his language and support him. I hate that argument. "He's free to say whatever he wants, but he should be prepared to accept the punishment for it". Newsflash... if there's a punishment for unpopular speech, then it isn't exactly free speech. I'm sure some Chinese officials would agree that their citizens are free to talk about the Tiananmen Square Massacre, just as long as they're prepared to accept the jail time that comes afterwards. Yes, I'm aware that the technical definition of free speech involves the right to speech without fear of punishment from law enforcement. But by going the angry mob route, people are creating their own unwritten laws and enforcing vigilante justice, which is worse than the "crime" of calling someone a nasty name. To those who support the idea of emailing Razer and getting Destiny fired- what's wrong with the concept of "if you don't like it, don't watch it"? I agree. People sending their thoughts to sponsors is an excellent example of Free Speech in action. Its stupid that there are people out there who want to limit people's rights to send whatever speech they want to the sponsors of a player. If you are against Racism, then you should be okay with people sending letters to sponsors. If you are pro-free speech, then you should be okay with people exercising free speech and sending letters to sponsors. If you are pro racism, then you should be against the sending of letters to sponsors. I support the legal right to do all of these things. But that does not make them the right thing to do. If your neighbor says some unpleasant things to you, you are within your legal rights to monitor the decibel levels when he throws a party and call the police if it gets too loud. You are within your rights to call the homeowners association in your neighborhood and have him reprimanded if his grass gets too tall, or if he plants flowers in an unapproved area. You are within your rights to talk to all of your other neighbors and tell them stories about things he has done wrong, and convince them to join you in treating him negatively. Or you could just ignore him and his unpleasant opinions. I believe this is the better choice. Depends on what he's saying right? If he's threatening to hurt you--then calling the authorities is the normal thing to do. If he's simply insulting you personally--then you can complain to the homeowners association because paying $300,000-$600,000 to live where people attack you constantly is not worth the money. If he is simply being offensive and cursing at your neighbors, then you are in the moral quandary of doing the right thing (helping your neighbor that is being belittled) or doing the apathetic thing (pretending nothing is wrong.) For example, a lot of Germans during WW2 didn't say anything about what was happening with the Jews because it wasn't their problem--why bother saying anything if it didn't affect them anyway? On the other hand, Salem witch trials got out of hand with the witch hunts. The correct answer is that there is no black and white answer. Saying nothing only sometimes is the right choice much like saying something is sometimes the right choice. You cannot define when it is the right choice simply because you personally feel it is. You're inventing extreme situations that have no relevance here. This is about someone saying a bad word on the internet. When someone has a potty mouth (or should I say, potty fingers? it's not like he actually said any of these words), there is a right answer. You ignore him. That's why the complaint was of Destiny saying fuck? Or ass? Or shit? Oh right--being offensive was not the complaint, being bigoted was the complaint. How offended people were was not as important as the fact that he was being bigoted. Destiny was not fired for being offensive, he was fired for being bigoted. Some people choose to let bigotry happen, others don't. Sometimes it's the right call to let bigotry happen, sometimes it isn't. For example, movies showing Nazi's as bad guys I am down for and I feel is an important step in the right direction for humanity. To stigmatize a social group that is so toxic to humanity as a whole is a good thing in my opinion. However, stigmatizing Vietnamese simply for disliking them is (to me) not good for humanity as whole. Whether the bigotry Destiny showed us was good for humanity or not is up to his sponsors. If he wanted to be bigoted without repercussions, maybe he should have been funded by Comedy Central or Trey Parker instead of Razer.
Destiny is not a role model, he has a lot of growing up to do, and there are plenty of people who dislike him for good reasons. But that doesn't mean that two wrongs make a right.
"but, he's not a nice person!" "but, nasty people deserve to have bad things happen!" I don't care. It doesn't matter. Angry mobs pretending to be the morality police, demanding compliance or threatening whatever punishment they're able to come up with... that is not how things should be done.
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If you're a sponsored player signed to a team, your actions reflect the stances of the company(ies) that sponsor you as well as the teammates you play with. It is not the angry public that forced him to be fired. It is the sponsors and the team that decided that he does not reflect their interests.
Its your freedom to do as you please as long as you do not seriously infringe on the freedom of others. If you want to be a dickhead player who's offensive and racist, that is your choice and it is certainly your freedom to do so. I support this level of freedom on all levels. However it is not within your freedom to expect that the team or their sponsors are forced to accept your behavior as such a belief would infringe on their freedom to set rules for themselves. There is no other way to look at this from a professional business's point of view. To expect otherwise is purely idiotic.
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On May 08 2012 14:00 lorkac wrote:Show nested quote +On May 08 2012 13:57 MercilessMonkey wrote:On May 08 2012 13:28 lorkac wrote:On May 08 2012 13:05 Chocobo wrote:On May 08 2012 12:36 hasuterrans wrote:On May 08 2012 12:22 Chocobo wrote:On May 08 2012 12:00 revel8 wrote:On May 08 2012 11:48 Chocobo wrote:On May 08 2012 11:02 revel8 wrote:On May 08 2012 10:40 Chocobo wrote:
[quote]
Sad to see that so many people still don't get the point. We're not saying "racist language isn't such a big deal, just man up and ignore it".
We're saying it's not your fucking job to be the internet morality police. It is not your place to demand that people clean up their language. It is not your place to punish those whose actions fall outside of what you consider to be acceptable.
If you emailed Razer to complain, you are no different than Christian groups complaining about the TV show Glee because it promotes acceptance of gay people, or Muslims demanding that newspapers not print a cartoon of Muhammad.
You don't get to demand that your moral code is followed by everyone else, under threat of whatever punishment you are able to come up with. That is a fucked up situation to occur and I will always stand against it. Especially when it will have the side effect of driving sponsors away from E-sports if it keeps happening.
And if you read this post and think that my message is "Chocobo is someone who thinks it's ok to call people niggers and gooks" then you need to get your head examined. It is laughable that because I am opposed to racism you imply I am bigoted and compare my stance of opposing racism to those who display homophobic behaviour or religious fundamentalism. Translation: "haha, those silly groups with their strange moral code, trying to control the actions of others... what a bunch of crazies. Luckily I follow the correct and accurate set of morals, and am completely justified in my attempts to control others with it." So being opposed to racism is now an example of bigotry? Hilarious. You are just embarrassing yourself now in your desperation to defend racist comments. Like I said, you need to get your head examined. If you are unable to see the difference between supporting the right to use free speech without losing your job and supporting racism, then something isn't working right in there.
My moral code is the code of modern progressive society in which racism is not tolerated but opposed, if your personal moral code is lacking and anachronistic then that is not my problem, it's yours.
There is no God but Allah, and Muhammad is his prophet! Allahu Akbar! Allahu Akbar! What you cannot seem to stomach is that the sponsors agreed with me that his behaviour was unacceptable. It is Destiny and his ungoverned behaviour that was likely to turn away sponsors from the scene. I take no issue with the actions of Quantic or Razer. They did what they had to do. If everyone in the SC2 community agreed with you then the sponsors would all leave because they cannot be associated with racial abuse and those who condone it. If everyone agreed with me, there would be no outcry and no reason for sponsors to leave. We'd have an uncensored community where players wouldn't be afraid to express unusual or unpopular opinions out of fear of punishment. Sounds just fine to me. You continue to embarrass yourself. You have no arguments except that you are appear unhappy that racism is now marginalised by society. You have decided in your mind that I am pro-racism and that everything I say is some invented argument in order to support racism. That is not the case. You need to wrap your mind around the fact that I am talking about free speech, not racism. Do you believe that rappers should be banned from using the word "nigger" in their songs, under penalty of losing their jobs? Do you believe that the TV show South Park should be pulled off the air? Do you think movies should not be allowed to have racist characters in them? I don't. I think all of these things should be allowed, and people who find that material offensive should simply avoid it. And this is exactly the same kind of situation... except in our case, the TL morality police decided to petition against the offensive material instead of simply ignoring it. This isn't a free speech debate lol. Destiny is not some kind of victim or free speech martyr. He's still free to say whatever he wants on his stream. No one is forcing Destiny to say or not say anything. Destiny was a brand ambassador for Razer by being a part of Quantic. A lot people use Razer products and don't want them supporting players who promote racist and homophobic language so they contacted Razer. Then Razer pulled the strings on Quantic. Shocking. This isn't a witch-hunt but a sequence of entirely predictable cause-and-effect events that have played themselves out in many competitive arenas. Furthermore, Destiny is still free to find a sponsor who will tolerate his language and support him. I hate that argument. "He's free to say whatever he wants, but he should be prepared to accept the punishment for it". Newsflash... if there's a punishment for unpopular speech, then it isn't exactly free speech. I'm sure some Chinese officials would agree that their citizens are free to talk about the Tiananmen Square Massacre, just as long as they're prepared to accept the jail time that comes afterwards. Yes, I'm aware that the technical definition of free speech involves the right to speech without fear of punishment from law enforcement. But by going the angry mob route, people are creating their own unwritten laws and enforcing vigilante justice, which is worse than the "crime" of calling someone a nasty name. To those who support the idea of emailing Razer and getting Destiny fired- what's wrong with the concept of "if you don't like it, don't watch it"? I agree. People sending their thoughts to sponsors is an excellent example of Free Speech in action. Its stupid that there are people out there who want to limit people's rights to send whatever speech they want to the sponsors of a player. If you are against Racism, then you should be okay with people sending letters to sponsors. If you are pro-free speech, then you should be okay with people exercising free speech and sending letters to sponsors. If you are pro racism, then you should be against the sending of letters to sponsors. I am against racism. I am not okay with people immediately sending letters to sponsors. It is even worse when some of the people doing it were people who didn't watch his stream in the first place. Choosing a course of action which doesn't particularly harm the alleged racist, but could seriously impact a bunch of innocent people on his team does not make sense. That is not the only anti-racism course of action, believe it or not. What a ridiculous argument. Just because some people don't agree with your point of view doesn't mean that they're all pro racism. Keep your terrible straw-man arguments out of it. Not saying I people should agree with me. I'm saying if everyone is free to speak their mind--that should also include those people who enjoy sending letters to sponsors. They are people too. They, as people, also have free speech. To be against them speaking their mind is to be against free speech. Why do you wish to shut up others who disagree with you?
just because you have the ability to speak your mind doesn't mean you should exercise it in absurd ways. that's called being a dick. im not calling you a dick. im just saying there are circumstances when free speech accomplishes nothing but negative stuff. and in that case why there would be a reason (other than being a dick) to exercise your right to free speech.
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On May 08 2012 16:21 Diglett wrote:Show nested quote +On May 08 2012 14:00 lorkac wrote:On May 08 2012 13:57 MercilessMonkey wrote:On May 08 2012 13:28 lorkac wrote:On May 08 2012 13:05 Chocobo wrote:On May 08 2012 12:36 hasuterrans wrote:On May 08 2012 12:22 Chocobo wrote:On May 08 2012 12:00 revel8 wrote:On May 08 2012 11:48 Chocobo wrote:On May 08 2012 11:02 revel8 wrote:
[quote]
It is laughable that because I am opposed to racism you imply I am bigoted and compare my stance of opposing racism to those who display homophobic behaviour or religious fundamentalism. Translation: "haha, those silly groups with their strange moral code, trying to control the actions of others... what a bunch of crazies. Luckily I follow the correct and accurate set of morals, and am completely justified in my attempts to control others with it." So being opposed to racism is now an example of bigotry? Hilarious. You are just embarrassing yourself now in your desperation to defend racist comments. Like I said, you need to get your head examined. If you are unable to see the difference between supporting the right to use free speech without losing your job and supporting racism, then something isn't working right in there.
My moral code is the code of modern progressive society in which racism is not tolerated but opposed, if your personal moral code is lacking and anachronistic then that is not my problem, it's yours.
There is no God but Allah, and Muhammad is his prophet! Allahu Akbar! Allahu Akbar! What you cannot seem to stomach is that the sponsors agreed with me that his behaviour was unacceptable. It is Destiny and his ungoverned behaviour that was likely to turn away sponsors from the scene. I take no issue with the actions of Quantic or Razer. They did what they had to do. If everyone in the SC2 community agreed with you then the sponsors would all leave because they cannot be associated with racial abuse and those who condone it. If everyone agreed with me, there would be no outcry and no reason for sponsors to leave. We'd have an uncensored community where players wouldn't be afraid to express unusual or unpopular opinions out of fear of punishment. Sounds just fine to me. You continue to embarrass yourself. You have no arguments except that you are appear unhappy that racism is now marginalised by society. You have decided in your mind that I am pro-racism and that everything I say is some invented argument in order to support racism. That is not the case. You need to wrap your mind around the fact that I am talking about free speech, not racism. Do you believe that rappers should be banned from using the word "nigger" in their songs, under penalty of losing their jobs? Do you believe that the TV show South Park should be pulled off the air? Do you think movies should not be allowed to have racist characters in them? I don't. I think all of these things should be allowed, and people who find that material offensive should simply avoid it. And this is exactly the same kind of situation... except in our case, the TL morality police decided to petition against the offensive material instead of simply ignoring it. This isn't a free speech debate lol. Destiny is not some kind of victim or free speech martyr. He's still free to say whatever he wants on his stream. No one is forcing Destiny to say or not say anything. Destiny was a brand ambassador for Razer by being a part of Quantic. A lot people use Razer products and don't want them supporting players who promote racist and homophobic language so they contacted Razer. Then Razer pulled the strings on Quantic. Shocking. This isn't a witch-hunt but a sequence of entirely predictable cause-and-effect events that have played themselves out in many competitive arenas. Furthermore, Destiny is still free to find a sponsor who will tolerate his language and support him. I hate that argument. "He's free to say whatever he wants, but he should be prepared to accept the punishment for it". Newsflash... if there's a punishment for unpopular speech, then it isn't exactly free speech. I'm sure some Chinese officials would agree that their citizens are free to talk about the Tiananmen Square Massacre, just as long as they're prepared to accept the jail time that comes afterwards. Yes, I'm aware that the technical definition of free speech involves the right to speech without fear of punishment from law enforcement. But by going the angry mob route, people are creating their own unwritten laws and enforcing vigilante justice, which is worse than the "crime" of calling someone a nasty name. To those who support the idea of emailing Razer and getting Destiny fired- what's wrong with the concept of "if you don't like it, don't watch it"? I agree. People sending their thoughts to sponsors is an excellent example of Free Speech in action. Its stupid that there are people out there who want to limit people's rights to send whatever speech they want to the sponsors of a player. If you are against Racism, then you should be okay with people sending letters to sponsors. If you are pro-free speech, then you should be okay with people exercising free speech and sending letters to sponsors. If you are pro racism, then you should be against the sending of letters to sponsors. I am against racism. I am not okay with people immediately sending letters to sponsors. It is even worse when some of the people doing it were people who didn't watch his stream in the first place. Choosing a course of action which doesn't particularly harm the alleged racist, but could seriously impact a bunch of innocent people on his team does not make sense. That is not the only anti-racism course of action, believe it or not. What a ridiculous argument. Just because some people don't agree with your point of view doesn't mean that they're all pro racism. Keep your terrible straw-man arguments out of it. Not saying I people should agree with me. I'm saying if everyone is free to speak their mind--that should also include those people who enjoy sending letters to sponsors. They are people too. They, as people, also have free speech. To be against them speaking their mind is to be against free speech. Why do you wish to shut up others who disagree with you? just because you have the ability to speak your mind doesn't mean you should exercise it in absurd ways. that's called being a dick. im not calling you a dick. im just saying there are circumstances when free speech accomplishes nothing but negative stuff. and in that case why there would be no reason (other than being a dick) to exercise your right to free speech.
That's funny, because if Destiny had in the beginning exercised caution and strayed away from racial slurs, he wouldn't have started this whole shebang. You're absolutely right when you say there are circumstances when free speech accomplishes nothing, and Destiny did not need to call a Korean a racial slur.
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EPT
