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On May 08 2012 20:54 DoubleReed wrote:
Do people not realize that witch-hunting to the sponsors discourages more sponsors from coming to esports? Has anyone made that connection yet? Newsflash, they don't like people threatening them all the damn time for stupid silly issues like this. Sponsors that we do have might just say "fuck it, we can get less drama for our buck elsewhere."
Seriously, do you not get that?
I think that this is the main issue the people going directly to the sponsors don't realize when they do what they do. There has to be a way for them to voice their concerns without harming Esports growth.
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On May 08 2012 20:16 avenmarine wrote:
Why do people want to blame the communtiy? Going to the sponsors isn't wrong, it's actually the only thing left do to. The excuse is "go to the teams first", but they do not listen. They wait til the situation explodes and it becomes too late. In every case the teams always have reasonable oppourinty to prevent these things but they just look the other way. Why is there 9000 threads blaming the people going to the sponsors but nobody telling teams to stop this from ever happening in the first place.
On what basis do you think it's valid to suggest that teams do not listen? You could 'kind of' argue the case for Quantic and Destiny because they everyone knew who he was when they signed him, but at the same time, there really wasn't any notable public outcry to get a please explain from Quantic until the most recent incident, in which case, sponsors were notified pretty much before a Quantic representative would even be able to formulate a response.
As for the Orb situation, you suggesting that EG didn't listen is simply outrageous. Management responded almost instantly saying that the situation was being investigated very seriously, yet people fired at the sponsors immediately anyway. Did people expect EG to fire Orb instantly without any information other than a handful of screenshots? EG weren't even given a chance, so don't tell me going to sponsors was the only thing left to do.
I'm sorry, but I'll never feel comfortable with how hastily certain members of the community will pounce on sponsors without even giving the teams a chance.
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On May 08 2012 16:16 sCCrooked wrote:
If you're a sponsored player signed to a team, your actions reflect the stances of the company(ies) that sponsor you as well as the teammates you play with. It is not the angry public that forced him to be fired. It is the sponsors and the team that decided that he does not reflect their interests.
Its your freedom to do as you please as long as you do not seriously infringe on the freedom of others. If you want to be a dickhead player who's offensive and racist, that is your choice and it is certainly your freedom to do so. I support this level of freedom on all levels. However it is not within your freedom to expect that the team or their sponsors are forced to accept your behavior as such a belief would infringe on their freedom to set rules for themselves. There is no other way to look at this from a professional business's point of view. To expect otherwise is purely idiotic.
It is the angry public that brought it up as an issue to the sponsors directly. To assume that sponsors didn't already know about it is silly. If you honestly think Razer didn't have someone from their company as part of the 2-4k people watching Destiny's stream at random points during the past 6 months then you're very mistaken. The angry public is, singlehandedly, the reason any of these issues occur.
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I think its fine that stuff like racist slurs are being "Witch hunted" out of teams, in the long term it can only be good that professional players conduct themselves like pros. This doesn't mean people don't have to have no personality or whatever, it just means they can be a bit more creative with insults.
Its stupid that people go straight to sponsors, and rather if you agree or disagree with something e-mail the team first and let them fix things in house. In my opinion it sends a much better image out to prospective sponsors since it basically says "hey guys, we can fix our own problems".
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On May 07 2012 20:11 Scarecrow wrote:Show nested quote +On May 07 2012 20:05 Blezza wrote:
Brilliant post, I totally agree with everything that you've said. THIS ISN'T LADDER, this isn't anonymous, we, as a community are getting people to lose their jobs and ruin their lives when it isn't needed.
We wouldn't do this to someone IRL, the Internet is no different.
The Witchhunt has to stop
If it stops public figures in the community saying/doing this shit in the future, I have no problem with it.
On May 07 2012 20:11 Crushinator wrote:
Witch Hunting is typically used to describe a hunt for people that don't exist, resulting in innocents getting hurt. I fail to see how this analogy applies here.
On May 07 2012 20:29 memcpy wrote:
Professional players should stop using derogatory language preemptively. That will stop the witch hunts. The problem right now is that teams are tolerating this behavior in the first place and giving people a reason to bring it to public light.
On May 07 2012 20:39 Deimos0 wrote:
Destiny's case was repetition of what happened when Orb was punished. I mean - how hard is to understand that community doesn't tolerate any racial statements? We may lose a good streamer or player, but at least community comes healthy after the fuss. And streamers, casters and players should FINALLY learn how to behave, because sometimes SC2 scene really looks like dominated by a bunch of kids (notably - Naniwa's game vs Nestea and Idra's whining).
On May 07 2012 20:50 awu25 wrote:
People should stop with this "Hurting ESPORTS" BS. You're not some community president who can enact laws on what the community can and cannot do. The community isn't going to change just because you think their actions are "hurting ESPORTS." They will continue to act the same, and guess what, SC2 tournaments will continue to exist and grow.
You and everyone before you who claimed that X action that the community should stop doing to help ESPORTS from growing is and will always be wrong.
I think that is enough to make a point with what I am about to say. To every reasonable person in here, please listen. There is no point in actually trying to hold up a decent debate in these forums. It is obvious that this direct commitment to emailing sponsors is innumerably damaging but there is nothing we can do about it, just read the comments above. These posts consist of completely asinine trash that we are going to get when discussing something such as this. You cannot ask the unintelligent to be intelligent. I know its harsh, but its a point we have to know to learn important concept we have to understand.
1st post above "Scarecrow" : Obviously a troll or ignorant person. To sum up what he says, "As long as I get what I want I don't care about the effects of my actions". This post adds no value to the conversation.
2nd post above"Crushinator" : Has to be a troll or I am completely dumbfounded. Basically finds one technicality in the argument as uses it to create a negative post which adds absolutely no value to the conversation. The term "Witch hunt" is used in a loose manner to bring a light relativity to an extremely famous event so we can put a name onto this abomination of past events that have currently happened. It is NOT a direct synonym to what is going on now.
3rd post above "Memcpy" : He is half right BUT he totally forgets that a huge part of the argument is about not going to sponsors. His point is totally lost because we do not know what "bring it to public light" means. If he means Sponsors then he has no supporting point into WHY we need to go straight to the sponsors. If he means teams, then it would of been nice to know that and have a few supporting points on that to.
4th post "Deimos0" : The community does not come out healthy after such endeavors. If he means healthy in the sense of "when the vocal minority gets what they want so they are all happy" then yes that is true... very healthy. On the "learn to behave" bit, I do not really have anything to say because he tries to explain his point but i do disagree with him. It is a loaded biased opinion. Everyone is entitled to their opinions but i do not think generalizing the community into your biased opinion makes any sense. Even though I might of just did the same thing =)
5th post "Awu25" : He starts off with this attack bit about how he the OP is not the presidents of etc... but it then keeps devolving into a definitive fact about how this is not hurting E sports with no reasoning behind it. How does he know it doesn't hurt E Sports? Quantic says it affects them negatively and I believe they are part of E sports. Well if hurting relations with sponsors and teams is not hurting E sports, maybe he is talking about only tournaments being E sports. Well the teams that send players to these tournaments are negatively affected and the tournaments need them for their tournament to grow. Also, many tournaments are sponsored by sponsors who sponsor teams. So if the relationship between teams and sponsors are being adversely affected because of the E sports community directly messaging them; would that not make the sponsors less positive about sponsoring tournaments? That last sentence is completely subjective from our point of view BUT teams are part of E sports so without the conjecture the point still remains, it does affect E sports negatively. Sure, we haven't crashed yet or anything but if we get a little power hungry who knows?
We can not argue with many of these people. With every intelligently written point comes 2 rash, emotional, or unintelligent points. I know I might leave some points loosely ended but i did not want to write an entire essay on the point. I think we should just stop trying to convince people who are not possible to convince that directly emailing sponsors is not a positive thing.
It is just the negative affect of a having a huge community.
*edit
On May 08 2012 20:16 avenmarine wrote:
Why do people want to blame the communtiy? Going to the sponsors isn't wrong, it's actually the only thing left do to. The excuse is "go to the teams first", but they do not listen. They wait til the situation explodes and it becomes too late. In every case the teams always have reasonable oppourinty to prevent these things but they just look the other way. Why is there 9000 threads blaming the people going to the sponsors but nobody telling teams to stop this from ever happening in the first place.
We have never given any time for teams to give us a reply. Completely makes up another reality about how we gave teams the time to discuss these situations when they occurred and they completely just ignored us and looked the other way. Never happened.
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Or do you believe what we do now is correct? Do you believe punish by example is an effective method? Will ostracizing every person who does wrong lead to a conducive atmosphere?
My personal opinion? While the consequence of your actions should be felt, the witch hunting we currently do is not a productive manner to conduct ourselves as a community. Future sponsorships and the growth of eSports are being hurt by our witch hunting.
All I see are words and no proof. Name 1 sponsor who has ducked out of esports because of controversies related to these so called "witch hunts".
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On May 08 2012 14:31 liberal wrote:
I'm trying to imagine, if I were to watch a show like South Park or something, and something that was said in the episode really offended me. The only response I can imagine myself coming up with would be to feel a little irritated and then forget about it eventually.
Maybe if I was REALLY BUTTHURT I could fume about it for a few minutes, maybe even turn it off.
Maybe if I was SO EXTREMELY BUTTHURT beyond anything I've even experienced by words I would refuse to ever watch the show again.
But I just can't ever, ever imagine finding myself so angry and BUTTHURT that I would start lashing out at it on the internet, or writing letters to the network, or start protesting the show or something. I would have to be a generally bitter and angry and vindictive person to actually go to such lengths over something so ridiculously petty.
And then I realize that this isn't a nationally syndicated show, it's some nerds playing video games on the internet, and then I wonder seriously what in the fuck is wrong with some people.
Sorry if I made anyone BUTTHURT that's just my 2 cents.
Ding Ding Ding, We have ourselves a WINNA! You sir have just won the Blue Ribbon prize for using the term "BUTTHURT" the most times in a single post!
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On May 08 2012 21:57 Shafanhow wrote:Show nested quote +On May 08 2012 14:31 liberal wrote:
I'm trying to imagine, if I were to watch a show like South Park or something, and something that was said in the episode really offended me. The only response I can imagine myself coming up with would be to feel a little irritated and then forget about it eventually.
Maybe if I was REALLY BUTTHURT I could fume about it for a few minutes, maybe even turn it off.
Maybe if I was SO EXTREMELY BUTTHURT beyond anything I've even experienced by words I would refuse to ever watch the show again.
But I just can't ever, ever imagine finding myself so angry and BUTTHURT that I would start lashing out at it on the internet, or writing letters to the network, or start protesting the show or something. I would have to be a generally bitter and angry and vindictive person to actually go to such lengths over something so ridiculously petty.
And then I realize that this isn't a nationally syndicated show, it's some nerds playing video games on the internet, and then I wonder seriously what in the fuck is wrong with some people.
Sorry if I made anyone BUTTHURT that's just my 2 cents. Ding Ding Ding, We have ourselves a WINNA! You sir have just won the Blue Ribbon prize for using the term "BUTTHURT" the most times in a single post!
They do get hate mail. Comedy Central is okay with it because Comedy Central is paying them with the intent that they be bigoted and insulting. That is why they are still on the air. Destiny getting hate mail and Razer disliking it is proof that Razer does not want to official stand with bigotry as a company stance.
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On May 08 2012 18:02 Thrombozyt wrote:
I'm against talking to the sponsors directly. Players do something you don't approve, then cease being a fan of this player. Don't watch him, root against him. As a viewer, you already have the choice to avoid a player, not watching his games.
Just because YOU think that something is unacceptable, doesn't mean it's punishable by e-sports-death.
If every time a sufficiently large group of viewers is offended by the actions of a player, the ralley and write the sponsors, then madness will ensue.
Example (hypothetical!):
I'm sure if organized properly, enough viewers were disgusted by IM_MVP cheesing against Naniwa in the GSL semi-finals. Lets go and talk to the IM sponsors and teach that cheesy noob a lesson. He robbed us of more entertaining games by choosing all-ins. Revolting!
Don't impose your views on all players. Just be a fan of players you like. Don't write to Quantic sponsors because Destiny was BM, write to Duckload or TLAF because White-Ra or Sheth are so manner!
If you believe that one's views should not be imposed on others--then why do you wish people who think talking to sponsors is a good thing is actually an evil thing that should be stopped?
Just because you disagree and are offended by the actions of people who are against bigotry does not mean you can dictate how those people act.
If teams do not want this to happen again--then they set up strict guidelines as to how to properly act at all times when their players are publicly acting on their behalf. If the team thinks it is worth the risk--then they keep the player. They could have forced Destiny to apologize, they could have fined him, they could have given him all manners of punishment. But when things got tough they let him go like a bad habit.
Don't get mad at letter writers simply because you don't like the decisions Quantic and Razer made. If you disagree with the decision, then write to Razer.
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On May 08 2012 20:54 DoubleReed wrote:
Do people not realize that witch-hunting to the sponsors discourages more sponsors from coming to esports? Has anyone made that connection yet? Newsflash, they don't like people threatening them all the damn time for stupid silly issues like this. Sponsors that we do have might just say "fuck it, we can get less drama for our buck elsewhere."
Seriously, do you not get that?
Prominent, sponsored gaming figures on a team using racial slurs also discourages sponsors from coming to esports.
Do you not realize this? Have you made that connection yet?
Newsflash, they don't like people being racist all the damn time for stupid silly reasons. Sponsors might say, "screw it, less racism for our buck elsewhere."
Seriously, do you not get that?
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You could ask in the show that runs tonight?
Climbing The Ladder is a weekly e-Sports show that discusses the ins and outs of the player, team, and tournament organizing segments of professional gaming. The focus of the show will be about clearing up misconceptions in each segment and to hopefully create a problem solving and idea generating environment to help the e-Sports community/industry progress.
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=328952¤tpage=2
Episode #4 (05/08/12 3:30pm EST) - Aaron Hassell (CMO of BeyondGaming) and Steven "Destiny" Bonnell II (Pro Gamer)
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On May 08 2012 22:34 Karak wrote:Show nested quote +On May 08 2012 20:54 DoubleReed wrote:
Do people not realize that witch-hunting to the sponsors discourages more sponsors from coming to esports? Has anyone made that connection yet? Newsflash, they don't like people threatening them all the damn time for stupid silly issues like this. Sponsors that we do have might just say "fuck it, we can get less drama for our buck elsewhere."
Seriously, do you not get that? Prominent, sponsored gaming figures on a team using racial slurs also discourages sponsors from coming to esports. Do you not realize this? Have you made that connection yet? Newsflash, they don't like people being racist all the damn time for stupid silly reasons. Sponsors might say, "screw it, less racism for our buck elsewhere." Seriously, do you not get that?
There are more avenues for complaint than the sponsors. He's not advocating inaction.
-_-
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On May 08 2012 20:54 DoubleReed wrote:
Do people not realize that witch-hunting to the sponsors discourages more sponsors from coming to esports? Has anyone made that connection yet? Newsflash, they don't like people threatening them all the damn time for stupid silly issues like this. Sponsors that we do have might just say "fuck it, we can get less drama for our buck elsewhere."
Seriously, do you not get that?
Did you not realize that holding on to players who spew bigotry gets the public to complain about them?
Maybe if the teams took a stronger stance against that behavior this would not have happened.
It's really easy you know. The team simply says "now that we're paying you to play video games, if you're playing with a public audience, don't be a bigot." Then add the caveat "If you play with a private audience, and it leaks out that you're a bigot, we can't really support that either, but we can't police what you do in private, it would just hurt our company image too much if we ignored it, so try not to be bigoted"
Done. The player then acts professionally and no one complains since none of the players are walking around using the terms asian and african as synonyms for loser, cheater, and weak.
No sense policing people for writing letters just because you disagree with the letters they write--controlling the free speech of letter writers is wrong. It's better to simply tell teams to be ready to take responsibility for the actions of its members and to be ready to accept the consequences of their choices.
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Man when I looked at the details of what happens its one use of a racist word, yet people are going on and on about spewing racism and bigotry.
You don't think you might be overblowing the issue a little there?
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On May 08 2012 22:36 Dfgj wrote:Show nested quote +On May 08 2012 22:34 Karak wrote:On May 08 2012 20:54 DoubleReed wrote:
Do people not realize that witch-hunting to the sponsors discourages more sponsors from coming to esports? Has anyone made that connection yet? Newsflash, they don't like people threatening them all the damn time for stupid silly issues like this. Sponsors that we do have might just say "fuck it, we can get less drama for our buck elsewhere."
Seriously, do you not get that? Prominent, sponsored gaming figures on a team using racial slurs also discourages sponsors from coming to esports. Do you not realize this? Have you made that connection yet? Newsflash, they don't like people being racist all the damn time for stupid silly reasons. Sponsors might say, "screw it, less racism for our buck elsewhere." Seriously, do you not get that? There are more avenues for complaint than the sponsors. He's not advocating inaction. -_-
But all people need to do is call the sponsors 1-3 times and suddenly they never have to call the sponsors again for any team as the scene becomes force to police themselves as a whole.
So instead of each team getting a stream of hate mail continually for each incident, one company gets a stream of mail once--and suddenly all teams proactively prevent the incident and similar incidents from happening again.
The response is immediate, long lasting, and forces policy change in both the teams and the players themselves.
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On May 08 2012 22:42 Dfgj wrote:
Man when I looked at the details of what happens its one use of a racist word, yet people are going on and on about spewing racism and bigotry.
You don't think you might be overblowing the issue a little there?
Technically, what people who are against bigotry is fighting against is how accepted bigotted language is within the esports community as a whole and using Destiny as the stepping stone to enact an policy change in order to force teams to be more proactively careful of supporting players who are bigoted.
The hope is that by enacting these policies, the starcraft culture itself will become less supportive of bigoted language and opinions overall, allowing the scene to become more and more acceptable as a mainstream mode of livelihood and marketing income source for companies that are not already supportive of eSports.
For example, it would be nice if a company like, say, Levis or Bebe became interested in eSports and and attempted to make a mens product line of jackets, pants, shoes, wallets, etc.... But any chance they had of being interested in doing that goes the window when the market option is not only a fringe subculture, but a racist one at that. It's hard enough to get companies to take the fact that SC2 is a videogame seriously--if we also expect them to be okay with its player base calling people gooks and niggers then we'll never have a chance of pulling in the new business development opportunities.
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On May 08 2012 20:00 SEA KarMa wrote:
i completely agree with the poster and his points. However, saying whether to witch hunt yes and no is just too straightforward, like black and white. The problem is that it will most likely fall in between. Say there was a robber in your house, and you caught him robbing some money. You kill him. That is what Razer did to Destiny. They did the extreme end of the scale, and ended their sponsorship (not the same scale as killing, but same scale in what they could do, which ending sponsorship is the biggest thing possible). It is not right to kill the robber, but it is acceptable to say, injure him. The punishment/witch hunt must scale with how large the problem is; in my opinion, in Destiny's case, Razer and his team should have just given him a severe warning at most. Seriously, Destiny streams so goddamn much, if I did the same amount of streaming, I would definitely have at least a few slip ups on the bad days. Racial slurs are not right, but they do not deserve what Destiny got. TL:DR they should deserve it accordingly to the severity of their actions.
sorry i had to use the robber example. i cant think of any other one.
And the best way to do that is to write to the sponsors to let them know exactly what we (as a market share) want from them.
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On May 08 2012 22:51 lorkac wrote:
For example, it would be nice if a company like, say, Levis or Bebe became interested in eSports and and attempted to make a mens product line of jackets, pants, shoes, wallets, etc.... But any chance they had of being interested in doing that goes the window when the market option is not only a fringe subculture, but a racist one at that. It's hard enough to get companies to take the fact that SC2 is a videogame seriously--if we also expect them to be okay with its player base calling people gooks and niggers then we'll never have a chance of pulling in the new business development opportunities.
This is so true. If we want to be professional, we have to act professional.
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On May 08 2012 17:22 Man with a Plan wrote:
This is a good OP. I was actually trying to write for sometime thoughts to this effect. I think a lot of it has to do with the general age and level of maturity of the community, added by the fact that this is an internet based anonymous "community and the actual relationship can be more volatile and unpredictable than traditional once. I agree with the general sentiment, there has to be some maturity to be demanded from the community and this general attitude is "hurting eSports!" :D
You know the easiest way to stop this community backlash? Teams stop paying people for being bigoted.
If teams took care to manage their players more closely, there would never really be a chance for the "community" to "witch hunt" anyone.
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On May 08 2012 22:42 Dfgj wrote:
Man when I looked at the details of what happens its one use of a racist word, yet people are going on and on about spewing racism and bigotry.
You don't think you might be overblowing the issue a little there?
destiny wasn't a one-off as he posted in the first thread of this type:
You may not like what I have to say, but I will go down in flames screaming nigger/gook/spick/faggot/queer before I ever release a pointless cookie-cutter apology.
so i don't think you can say this is an overreaction to a single isolated incident. it might be an over-reaction, and unnecessary damage may have occurred, but to make out that destiny was misrepresented by the people who accused him of using racist language is way off base.
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EPT
