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On May 08 2012 22:51 lorkac wrote:Show nested quote +On May 08 2012 22:42 Dfgj wrote:
Man when I looked at the details of what happens its one use of a racist word, yet people are going on and on about spewing racism and bigotry.
You don't think you might be overblowing the issue a little there? Technically, what people who are against bigotry is fighting against is how accepted bigotted language is within the esports community as a whole and using Destiny as the stepping stone to enact an policy change in order to force teams to be more proactively careful of supporting players who are bigoted. The hope is that by enacting these policies, the starcraft culture itself will become less supportive of bigoted language and opinions overall, allowing the scene to become more and more acceptable as a mainstream mode of livelihood and marketing income source for companies that are not already supportive of eSports. For example, it would be nice if a company like, say, Levis or Bebe became interested in eSports and and attempted to make a mens product line of jackets, pants, shoes, wallets, etc.... But any chance they had of being interested in doing that goes the window when the market option is not only a fringe subculture, but a racist one at that. It's hard enough to get companies to take the fact that SC2 is a videogame seriously--if we also expect them to be okay with its player base calling people gooks and niggers then we'll never have a chance of pulling in the new business development opportunities.
I highly an individual's personal stream is going to convince anyone that the entire market is a racist one, because of some bad language. As I've said before, if this was a tournament incident I'd agree with you, because tournaments are the mainstream while streaming is niche - for fans of that player.
The issues I have with this argument is the same fervor is only directed here - yet people happily soak up IdrA's language, or forgive match fixing and other instances of cheating, the latter of which is far more of an issue. Bad language on an individual stream is massively less important than it, yet people see a case where they can be offended and away we go.
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On May 08 2012 21:43 PeachTea wrote:Show nested quote +On May 08 2012 20:16 avenmarine wrote:
Why do people want to blame the communtiy? Going to the sponsors isn't wrong, it's actually the only thing left do to. The excuse is "go to the teams first", but they do not listen. They wait til the situation explodes and it becomes too late. In every case the teams always have reasonable oppourinty to prevent these things but they just look the other way. Why is there 9000 threads blaming the people going to the sponsors but nobody telling teams to stop this from ever happening in the first place. We have never given any time for teams to give us a reply. Completely makes up another reality about how we gave teams the time to discuss these situations when they occurred and they completely just ignored us and looked the other way. Never happened.
Teams should not have to wait for the public to point out that their player is going around calling people nigger while streaming.
That's called being responsible for your product. You need to solve the defects *before* the public asks you to solve it.
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man you cant get away with saying anything in today's world without SOMEONE saying they are offended. (whether it's true or not) I wouldn't doubt that most of the people who told razer what happened were just trolling cause of jealousy, immaturity, and more than likely being 13 and thinking they are doing it for the "betterment of esports" NEWS FLASH:
If you people didn't run around policing this shit then ppl like RAZER would've never even known at all what destiny did, this really sounds like a case of a younger brother telling mommy he cursed at him
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On May 08 2012 18:25 bkrow wrote:Show nested quote +On May 08 2012 16:43 lorkac wrote:On May 08 2012 16:41 thesideshow wrote:
I thought this thread was supposed to be about witch-hunts, not the destiny/racism issue again. Cool, let's go back to that then. People have the right to write to whomever they want--sponsors included. We should not police or censor the letter writing community. Sigh. I don't think people really want censorship or policing of what we can or cannot say; people are free to say whatever they want. The point of the discussion is to hopefully make people realise the consequences of their actions; just because you are free to do something doesn't make it the correct thing to do!
Who was that in reference to? Public figures who say racist terms or the people who write sponsors?
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On May 08 2012 23:05 TheWorldToCome wrote:Show nested quote +On May 08 2012 18:25 bkrow wrote:On May 08 2012 16:43 lorkac wrote:On May 08 2012 16:41 thesideshow wrote:
I thought this thread was supposed to be about witch-hunts, not the destiny/racism issue again. Cool, let's go back to that then. People have the right to write to whomever they want--sponsors included. We should not police or censor the letter writing community. Sigh. I don't think people really want censorship or policing of what we can or cannot say; people are free to say whatever they want. The point of the discussion is to hopefully make people realise the consequences of their actions; just because you are free to do something doesn't make it the correct thing to do! Who was that in reference to? Public figures who say racist terms or the people who write sponsors?
Might as well go with 'all of the above', really.
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For Destiny, I love the guy, have watched his stream tones over the past year and I hear him when he says it's his stream, he didn't want to be a community figure and his thoughts on language. Unfortunately, if he says something, people talk. A sponsor couldve gone to teamliquid last week and that was the most talked about thing . They open the thread and see racial slurs. Do you think they care who said them or the views of the person? No, they really do not give a fuck. Threads about tournaments, player interviews, stream viewership, strategy, love for the game, academies, teamhouses, and Zerg plushies should be at the top.
Positive things, not negative things. Let's stop calling BW news "old news" let's get fucking excited about it. Do you think the NHL and all the sports shows called Crosbys return "old news"? They talked about it everyday. Hyped it hyped it and hyped it. Then boom he comes back, dominates, and it's one of the most watched games of the regular season. Let's stop getting frustrated with Sundance's vague tweets. Let's get excited about what he's trying to do for us, AGAIN. HD casting at IPL4, guy clearly doing the best he can and we really, really trashed him. We're a bunch of pessimists and it needs to stop. This is my first gaming community, are they all like this? Fucking cheer up and enjoy the ride and do something for the scene along the way.
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On May 08 2012 22:59 Dfgj wrote:Show nested quote +On May 08 2012 22:51 lorkac wrote:On May 08 2012 22:42 Dfgj wrote:
Man when I looked at the details of what happens its one use of a racist word, yet people are going on and on about spewing racism and bigotry.
You don't think you might be overblowing the issue a little there? Technically, what people who are against bigotry is fighting against is how accepted bigotted language is within the esports community as a whole and using Destiny as the stepping stone to enact an policy change in order to force teams to be more proactively careful of supporting players who are bigoted. The hope is that by enacting these policies, the starcraft culture itself will become less supportive of bigoted language and opinions overall, allowing the scene to become more and more acceptable as a mainstream mode of livelihood and marketing income source for companies that are not already supportive of eSports. For example, it would be nice if a company like, say, Levis or Bebe became interested in eSports and and attempted to make a mens product line of jackets, pants, shoes, wallets, etc.... But any chance they had of being interested in doing that goes the window when the market option is not only a fringe subculture, but a racist one at that. It's hard enough to get companies to take the fact that SC2 is a videogame seriously--if we also expect them to be okay with its player base calling people gooks and niggers then we'll never have a chance of pulling in the new business development opportunities. I highly an individual's personal stream is going to convince anyone that the entire market is a racist one, because of some bad language. As I've said before, if this was a tournament incident I'd agree with you, because tournaments are the mainstream while streaming is niche - for fans of that player. The issues I have with this argument is the same fervor is only directed here - yet people happily soak up IdrA's language, or forgive match fixing and other instances of cheating, the latter of which is far more of an issue. Bad language on an individual stream is massively less important than it, yet people see a case where they can be offended and away we go.
The point of both this debate and this discussion is not to police Destiny specifically but to enact the general practice of keeping a tight leash on players like Destiny. If teams or sponsors started to realize that there will be public outcry--they will begin to police themselves before the next set of letters come. Also, when viewers realize that they're opinions (when sent to Sponsors) can actually be heard and responded to immediately--they'll become more and more willing to send mail to sponsors over time.
The Orb incident started this trend, and the Destiny incident is putting it into the spotlight. As this trend continues, teams and Sponsors will no longer wait for a public outcry to happen. Suddenly Idra starts being more precise in his insults, suddenly Sheth's image or Stephano's image becomes the main goal for a "player image." We'll slowly get less and less bigoted payed players as the teams and sponsors start being more strict as to the behaviors of its players as a whole and not just individually.
Suddenly we don't need to send letters to anyone for Idra calling someone a fag--because before he even calls someone a fag the team already asked him before the incident to stop calling his opponents fag in public. Idra will still call that guy a loser, an unfair cheeser, a fuckhead, an asswipe, etc... Because being offensive is not what is being policed.
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On May 08 2012 23:04 eits wrote:
man you cant get away with saying anything in today's world without SOMEONE saying they are offended. (whether it's true or not) I wouldn't doubt that most of the people who told razer what happened were just trolling cause of jealousy, immaturity, and more than likely being 13 and thinking they are doing it for the "betterment of esports" NEWS FLASH:
If you people didn't run around policing this shit then ppl like RAZER would've never even known at all what destiny did, this really sounds like a case of a younger brother telling mommy he cursed at him
Actions have consequences. A company was called to be informed that their product promoted bigoted behavior. The company took action against it in order to show their stance against bigotry.
That's it, that's all that happened.
No one is jealous of an SC2 player who doesn't do well in MLG and plays LoL half the time. No point in being jealous of a sub-par player.
If it was immaturity--then they would have sent the mail to Destiny trying to police him, trying to yell at him to stop his behavior. They didn't, they went to the sponsors because the problem with Destiny's behavior was that he was being paid to be bigoted. The whole reason it was sent to sponsors was because there was an understanding of the chain of command and an awareness of the efficiency of power available to the viewers if complaints were sent to people of power instead of simply on the twitter/ownded chat feed.
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On May 08 2012 23:08 Billd wrote:
For Destiny, I love the guy, have watched his stream tones over the past year and I hear him when he says it's his stream, he didn't want to be a community figure and his thoughts on language. Unfortunately, if he says something, people talk. A sponsor couldve gone to teamliquid last week and that was the most talked about thing . They open the thread and see racial slurs. Do you think they care who said them or the views of the person? No, they really do not give a fuck. Threads about tournaments, player interviews, stream viewership, strategy, love for the game, academies, teamhouses, and Zerg plushies should be at the top.
Positive things, not negative things. Let's stop calling BW news "old news" let's get fucking excited about it. Do you think the NHL and all the sports shows called Crosbys return "old news"? They talked about it everyday. Hyped it hyped it and hyped it. Then boom he comes back, dominates, and it's one of the most watched games of the regular season. Let's stop getting frustrated with Sundance's vague tweets. Let's get excited about what he's trying to do for us, AGAIN. HD casting at IPL4, guy clearly doing the best he can and we really, really trashed him. We're a bunch of pessimists and it needs to stop. This is my first gaming community, are they all like this? Fucking cheer up and enjoy the ride and do something for the scene along the way.
That's what's great about talking to the sponsors directly. You only need to do it 1-3 times and teams will start policing themselves. We don't have to start a new thread for every time an incident happens because the teams should learn to manage the situation before it becomes big enough to become a situation.
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On May 08 2012 22:33 lorkac wrote:Show nested quote +On May 08 2012 18:02 Thrombozyt wrote:
I'm against talking to the sponsors directly. Players do something you don't approve, then cease being a fan of this player. Don't watch him, root against him. As a viewer, you already have the choice to avoid a player, not watching his games.
Just because YOU think that something is unacceptable, doesn't mean it's punishable by e-sports-death.
If every time a sufficiently large group of viewers is offended by the actions of a player, the ralley and write the sponsors, then madness will ensue.
Example (hypothetical!):
I'm sure if organized properly, enough viewers were disgusted by IM_MVP cheesing against Naniwa in the GSL semi-finals. Lets go and talk to the IM sponsors and teach that cheesy noob a lesson. He robbed us of more entertaining games by choosing all-ins. Revolting!
Don't impose your views on all players. Just be a fan of players you like. Don't write to Quantic sponsors because Destiny was BM, write to Duckload or TLAF because White-Ra or Sheth are so manner! If you believe that one's views should not be imposed on others--then why do you wish people who think talking to sponsors is a good thing is actually an evil thing that should be stopped? Just because you disagree and are offended by the actions of people who are against bigotry does not mean you can dictate how those people act. If teams do not want this to happen again--then they set up strict guidelines as to how to properly act at all times when their players are publicly acting on their behalf. If the team thinks it is worth the risk--then they keep the player. They could have forced Destiny to apologize, they could have fined him, they could have given him all manners of punishment. But when things got tough they let him go like a bad habit. Don't get mad at letter writers simply because you don't like the decisions Quantic and Razer made. If you disagree with the decision, then write to Razer.
I never tried or wanted to dictate how people act. I posted my views. I called for a less destructive response.
See it this way:
I strongly disagree with the people that went directly to the sponsors. How do I react?
1) I become 'less of a fan' of this person. If I oppose a view in a forum, I will most likely make a post because that's the nature of a forum.
2) I try to contact their parents/spouses/supervisors at work complaining about their behavior which is outrageous.
Of course I choose the first option over the second, even if I strongly disagree and know some of those persons personally and can therefore write to persons in their real life.
In the case of Destiny, people could have stopped watching him, which hurts him directly. They could have written to him directly. They could have written to his team. But instead they addressed the sponsors, who most likely didn't know about the incident and are KNOWN (from the orb case) to act on the safest side possible which is the dismissal of the players.
Don't act like you didn't know what would happen, when you wrote to the sponsor. This excuse might have made you a bit slow, when used during the orb case. But since then, it is CLEAR that complaining to a sponsor directly about such a topic means the sacking of the player.
You (and the others that wrote to Razer) apparently judged, that Destiny should fired for whatever he did. You as the vocal minority got him fired. The nature of such decisions means, that even IF I wrote Razer know, it wouldn't undo the damage. So instead IF I was as zealous in my actions as you, I would write to whoever gives you money and pressure him to cut you off from your income.
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On May 08 2012 23:20 lorkac wrote:Show nested quote +On May 08 2012 23:08 Billd wrote:
For Destiny, I love the guy, have watched his stream tones over the past year and I hear him when he says it's his stream, he didn't want to be a community figure and his thoughts on language. Unfortunately, if he says something, people talk. A sponsor couldve gone to teamliquid last week and that was the most talked about thing . They open the thread and see racial slurs. Do you think they care who said them or the views of the person? No, they really do not give a fuck. Threads about tournaments, player interviews, stream viewership, strategy, love for the game, academies, teamhouses, and Zerg plushies should be at the top.
Positive things, not negative things. Let's stop calling BW news "old news" let's get fucking excited about it. Do you think the NHL and all the sports shows called Crosbys return "old news"? They talked about it everyday. Hyped it hyped it and hyped it. Then boom he comes back, dominates, and it's one of the most watched games of the regular season. Let's stop getting frustrated with Sundance's vague tweets. Let's get excited about what he's trying to do for us, AGAIN. HD casting at IPL4, guy clearly doing the best he can and we really, really trashed him. We're a bunch of pessimists and it needs to stop. This is my first gaming community, are they all like this? Fucking cheer up and enjoy the ride and do something for the scene along the way. That's what's great about talking to the sponsors directly. You only need to do it 1-3 times and teams will start policing themselves. We don't have to start a new thread for every time an incident happens because the teams should learn to manage the situation before it becomes big enough to become a situation.
I agree. We should do our dirty laundry now. Get rid of or at least minimize events that could not occur if this thing went big (TV, larger online audiences). If that happens, more casual people will be watching and those people will not put up with anything remotely close to some of the things that have happened. Lets clean it up and we'll show up at the big boys offices with bells on ready to show how good we are and what this is all about.
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On May 08 2012 23:11 lorkac wrote:Show nested quote +On May 08 2012 22:59 Dfgj wrote:On May 08 2012 22:51 lorkac wrote:On May 08 2012 22:42 Dfgj wrote:
Man when I looked at the details of what happens its one use of a racist word, yet people are going on and on about spewing racism and bigotry.
You don't think you might be overblowing the issue a little there? Technically, what people who are against bigotry is fighting against is how accepted bigotted language is within the esports community as a whole and using Destiny as the stepping stone to enact an policy change in order to force teams to be more proactively careful of supporting players who are bigoted. The hope is that by enacting these policies, the starcraft culture itself will become less supportive of bigoted language and opinions overall, allowing the scene to become more and more acceptable as a mainstream mode of livelihood and marketing income source for companies that are not already supportive of eSports. For example, it would be nice if a company like, say, Levis or Bebe became interested in eSports and and attempted to make a mens product line of jackets, pants, shoes, wallets, etc.... But any chance they had of being interested in doing that goes the window when the market option is not only a fringe subculture, but a racist one at that. It's hard enough to get companies to take the fact that SC2 is a videogame seriously--if we also expect them to be okay with its player base calling people gooks and niggers then we'll never have a chance of pulling in the new business development opportunities. I highly an individual's personal stream is going to convince anyone that the entire market is a racist one, because of some bad language. As I've said before, if this was a tournament incident I'd agree with you, because tournaments are the mainstream while streaming is niche - for fans of that player. The issues I have with this argument is the same fervor is only directed here - yet people happily soak up IdrA's language, or forgive match fixing and other instances of cheating, the latter of which is far more of an issue. Bad language on an individual stream is massively less important than it, yet people see a case where they can be offended and away we go. The point of both this debate and this discussion is not to police Destiny specifically but to enact the general practice of keeping a tight leash on players like Destiny. If teams or sponsors started to realize that there will be public outcry--they will begin to police themselves before the next set of letters come. Also, when viewers realize that they're opinions (when sent to Sponsors) can actually be heard and responded to immediately--they'll become more and more willing to send mail to sponsors over time. The Orb incident started this trend, and the Destiny incident is putting it into the spotlight. As this trend continues, teams and Sponsors will no longer wait for a public outcry to happen. Suddenly Idra starts being more precise in his insults, suddenly Sheth's image or Stephano's image becomes the main goal for a "player image." We'll slowly get less and less bigoted payed players as the teams and sponsors start being more strict as to the behaviors of its players as a whole and not just individually. Suddenly we don't need to send letters to anyone for Idra calling someone a fag--because before he even calls someone a fag the team already asked him before the incident to stop calling his opponents fag in public. Idra will still call that guy a loser, an unfair cheeser, a fuckhead, an asswipe, etc... Because being offensive is not what is being policed.
Specifically, you're not getting 'less bigoted players', just less use of particular words that the community doesn't like, assuming the dislike stops here. Minor detail.
What you're describing is mob rule - and players avoiding doing anything that might provoke a public outcry, which we've seen can take off on anything and is hardly consistent. This was anything but a rational, measured response, and you've all but justified it as making an example of someone to put fear in the rest: a lynch mob. I don't disagree with pushing for player civility, particularly in public viewing (which I maintain streaming is far less so than tournaments), but the community is the last group I'd trust to actually be the ones to decide where lines are drawn.
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I also think the growth we have experienced over the past year has been a painful transition for some people. A lot of players and some casters don't realize how popular they have become and are not taking on the role very well. A lot of these guys don't really know how to conduct themselves on such a big stage, and I don't blame them either. It happens to people all the time who become famous overnight.
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Laughing my ass off......
People think they can tell someone on the internet to follow a so called "chain of command" because its good for e-sports and the offenders career!?!?!
GTFO!!!
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On May 08 2012 23:24 Thrombozyt wrote:Show nested quote +On May 08 2012 22:33 lorkac wrote:On May 08 2012 18:02 Thrombozyt wrote:
I'm against talking to the sponsors directly. Players do something you don't approve, then cease being a fan of this player. Don't watch him, root against him. As a viewer, you already have the choice to avoid a player, not watching his games.
Just because YOU think that something is unacceptable, doesn't mean it's punishable by e-sports-death.
If every time a sufficiently large group of viewers is offended by the actions of a player, the ralley and write the sponsors, then madness will ensue.
Example (hypothetical!):
I'm sure if organized properly, enough viewers were disgusted by IM_MVP cheesing against Naniwa in the GSL semi-finals. Lets go and talk to the IM sponsors and teach that cheesy noob a lesson. He robbed us of more entertaining games by choosing all-ins. Revolting!
Don't impose your views on all players. Just be a fan of players you like. Don't write to Quantic sponsors because Destiny was BM, write to Duckload or TLAF because White-Ra or Sheth are so manner! If you believe that one's views should not be imposed on others--then why do you wish people who think talking to sponsors is a good thing is actually an evil thing that should be stopped? Just because you disagree and are offended by the actions of people who are against bigotry does not mean you can dictate how those people act. If teams do not want this to happen again--then they set up strict guidelines as to how to properly act at all times when their players are publicly acting on their behalf. If the team thinks it is worth the risk--then they keep the player. They could have forced Destiny to apologize, they could have fined him, they could have given him all manners of punishment. But when things got tough they let him go like a bad habit. Don't get mad at letter writers simply because you don't like the decisions Quantic and Razer made. If you disagree with the decision, then write to Razer. I never tried or wanted to dictate how people act. I posted my views. I called for a less destructive response. See it this way: I strongly disagree with the people that went directly to the sponsors. How do I react? 1) I become 'less of a fan' of this person. If I oppose a view in a forum, I will most likely make a post because that's the nature of a forum. 2) I try to contact their parents/spouses/supervisors at work complaining about their behavior which is outrageous. Of course I choose the first option over the second, even if I strongly disagree and know some of those persons personally and can therefore write to persons in their real life. In the case of Destiny, people could have stopped watching him, which hurts him directly. They could have written to him directly. They could have written to his team. But instead they addressed the sponsors, who most likely didn't know about the incident and are KNOWN (from the orb case) to act on the safest side possible which is the dismissal of the players. Don't act like you didn't know what would happen, when you wrote to the sponsor. This excuse might have made you a bit slow, when used during the orb case. But since then, it is CLEAR that complaining to a sponsor directly about such a topic means the sacking of the player. You (and the others that wrote to Razer) apparently judged, that Destiny should fired for whatever he did. You as the vocal minority got him fired. The nature of such decisions means, that even IF I wrote Razer know, it wouldn't undo the damage. So instead IF I was as zealous in my actions as you, I would write to whoever gives you money and pressure him to cut you off from your income.
Yeah, writing to the company I EARN my money from (it's not given just to clear that up) and telling them I told the sponsor of a starcraft player that he uses the N word on his stream is gonna get me fired every time. Sigh, Come on and get real, if Destiny or Orb or who ever had NOT used racial slurs these sponsors wouldn't give a damn. The reason these complaints carry weight is because they did something wrong.
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On May 08 2012 23:02 lorkac wrote:Show nested quote +On May 08 2012 21:43 PeachTea wrote:On May 08 2012 20:16 avenmarine wrote:
Why do people want to blame the communtiy? Going to the sponsors isn't wrong, it's actually the only thing left do to. The excuse is "go to the teams first", but they do not listen. They wait til the situation explodes and it becomes too late. In every case the teams always have reasonable oppourinty to prevent these things but they just look the other way. Why is there 9000 threads blaming the people going to the sponsors but nobody telling teams to stop this from ever happening in the first place. We have never given any time for teams to give us a reply. Completely makes up another reality about how we gave teams the time to discuss these situations when they occurred and they completely just ignored us and looked the other way. Never happened. Teams should not have to wait for the public to point out that their player is going around calling people nigger while streaming. That's called being responsible for your product. You need to solve the defects *before* the public asks you to solve it.
They do! It can take a little while to contact the player, and maybe even longer to discuss and put a statement out. If an incident happens where the player ragequits and goes to bed, there is no way for anyone to have a serious discussion about it until the next day.
Going directly to the sponsor is like going behind someones back and telling their boss about how they did X thing Y times.
If you have a gripe with somethign that had been done, Go to the player first, give them a chance to apologize. If not that, go to the team second. Give them a day or two to sort shit out.
Going to the sponsor is a drastic action that, while it may knock StupidPlayerX from the sky, it can also ruin so much more.
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On May 08 2012 23:11 lorkac wrote:Show nested quote +On May 08 2012 22:59 Dfgj wrote:On May 08 2012 22:51 lorkac wrote:On May 08 2012 22:42 Dfgj wrote:
Man when I looked at the details of what happens its one use of a racist word, yet people are going on and on about spewing racism and bigotry.
You don't think you might be overblowing the issue a little there? Technically, what people who are against bigotry is fighting against is how accepted bigotted language is within the esports community as a whole and using Destiny as the stepping stone to enact an policy change in order to force teams to be more proactively careful of supporting players who are bigoted. The hope is that by enacting these policies, the starcraft culture itself will become less supportive of bigoted language and opinions overall, allowing the scene to become more and more acceptable as a mainstream mode of livelihood and marketing income source for companies that are not already supportive of eSports. For example, it would be nice if a company like, say, Levis or Bebe became interested in eSports and and attempted to make a mens product line of jackets, pants, shoes, wallets, etc.... But any chance they had of being interested in doing that goes the window when the market option is not only a fringe subculture, but a racist one at that. It's hard enough to get companies to take the fact that SC2 is a videogame seriously--if we also expect them to be okay with its player base calling people gooks and niggers then we'll never have a chance of pulling in the new business development opportunities. I highly an individual's personal stream is going to convince anyone that the entire market is a racist one, because of some bad language. As I've said before, if this was a tournament incident I'd agree with you, because tournaments are the mainstream while streaming is niche - for fans of that player. The issues I have with this argument is the same fervor is only directed here - yet people happily soak up IdrA's language, or forgive match fixing and other instances of cheating, the latter of which is far more of an issue. Bad language on an individual stream is massively less important than it, yet people see a case where they can be offended and away we go. The point of both this debate and this discussion is not to police Destiny specifically but to enact the general practice of keeping a tight leash on players like Destiny. If teams or sponsors started to realize that there will be public outcry--they will begin to police themselves before the next set of letters come. Also, when viewers realize that they're opinions (when sent to Sponsors) can actually be heard and responded to immediately--they'll become more and more willing to send mail to sponsors over time. The Orb incident started this trend, and the Destiny incident is putting it into the spotlight. As this trend continues, teams and Sponsors will no longer wait for a public outcry to happen. Suddenly Idra starts being more precise in his insults, suddenly Sheth's image or Stephano's image becomes the main goal for a "player image." We'll slowly get less and less bigoted payed players as the teams and sponsors start being more strict as to the behaviors of its players as a whole and not just individually. Suddenly we don't need to send letters to anyone for Idra calling someone a fag--because before he even calls someone a fag the team already asked him before the incident to stop calling his opponents fag in public. Idra will still call that guy a loser, an unfair cheeser, a fuckhead, an asswipe, etc... Because being offensive is not what is being policed yet..
Added a very important distinction.
On a more personal note:
If you really believe that it's worse to be called 'nigger' than to be called 'fuckhead', 'asswipe' and similar insults, then I'm not sure how you can call someone a bigot without being a giant hypocrite.
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Very insightful OP, really changed my point of view in some cases. You should really give the team-management the chance to take action before you address their sponsors directly, that's what they are there for.
Thanks to Quantic's CEO for his time and effort and his own opinion, very helpful
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On May 08 2012 23:40 Thrombozyt wrote:Show nested quote +On May 08 2012 23:11 lorkac wrote:On May 08 2012 22:59 Dfgj wrote:On May 08 2012 22:51 lorkac wrote:On May 08 2012 22:42 Dfgj wrote:
Man when I looked at the details of what happens its one use of a racist word, yet people are going on and on about spewing racism and bigotry.
You don't think you might be overblowing the issue a little there? Technically, what people who are against bigotry is fighting against is how accepted bigotted language is within the esports community as a whole and using Destiny as the stepping stone to enact an policy change in order to force teams to be more proactively careful of supporting players who are bigoted. The hope is that by enacting these policies, the starcraft culture itself will become less supportive of bigoted language and opinions overall, allowing the scene to become more and more acceptable as a mainstream mode of livelihood and marketing income source for companies that are not already supportive of eSports. For example, it would be nice if a company like, say, Levis or Bebe became interested in eSports and and attempted to make a mens product line of jackets, pants, shoes, wallets, etc.... But any chance they had of being interested in doing that goes the window when the market option is not only a fringe subculture, but a racist one at that. It's hard enough to get companies to take the fact that SC2 is a videogame seriously--if we also expect them to be okay with its player base calling people gooks and niggers then we'll never have a chance of pulling in the new business development opportunities. I highly an individual's personal stream is going to convince anyone that the entire market is a racist one, because of some bad language. As I've said before, if this was a tournament incident I'd agree with you, because tournaments are the mainstream while streaming is niche - for fans of that player. The issues I have with this argument is the same fervor is only directed here - yet people happily soak up IdrA's language, or forgive match fixing and other instances of cheating, the latter of which is far more of an issue. Bad language on an individual stream is massively less important than it, yet people see a case where they can be offended and away we go. The point of both this debate and this discussion is not to police Destiny specifically but to enact the general practice of keeping a tight leash on players like Destiny. If teams or sponsors started to realize that there will be public outcry--they will begin to police themselves before the next set of letters come. Also, when viewers realize that they're opinions (when sent to Sponsors) can actually be heard and responded to immediately--they'll become more and more willing to send mail to sponsors over time. The Orb incident started this trend, and the Destiny incident is putting it into the spotlight. As this trend continues, teams and Sponsors will no longer wait for a public outcry to happen. Suddenly Idra starts being more precise in his insults, suddenly Sheth's image or Stephano's image becomes the main goal for a "player image." We'll slowly get less and less bigoted payed players as the teams and sponsors start being more strict as to the behaviors of its players as a whole and not just individually. Suddenly we don't need to send letters to anyone for Idra calling someone a fag--because before he even calls someone a fag the team already asked him before the incident to stop calling his opponents fag in public. Idra will still call that guy a loser, an unfair cheeser, a fuckhead, an asswipe, etc... Because being offensive is not what is being policed yet.. Added a very important distinction. On a more personal note: If you really believe that it's worse to be called 'nigger' than to be called 'fuckhead', 'asswipe' and similar insults, then I'm not sure how you can call someone a bigot without being a giant hypocrite.
Clearly you have no idea of the power of language. Nor any clue at all about the hate, violence, oppression and inhumanity the N-word encapsulates for a massive number of people. There is a difference. Being vulgar just because you can is dumb, but it doesn't get people anywhere near as upset, and there's a reason. If you can't tell the difference between a racial slur and other profanity you're woefully ignorant.
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Should we ignore racism then? lets say that we did , do you think it will occur less or more?
Arguably starcraft 2 community is paticularly mild in the "BM" department compare to other games.
But if it were to be ignored and even accepted how do you think the public would react to this? bottomline racism is generally a bad thing in society regardless of your personal believe(Dior designer is fired because of anti semitic comments).
Racism is serious business and these people that are affected by this "witch hunt"(excluding naniwa he's just being an idiot) did not make such a comment in private but rather in public (while streaming and being watched by few thousand people) sponsor will not want to be associated with it.
Here's an idea if you have the urge to make derogatory comments or even euphemism that might be construed as racist/discriminatory in public DON'T DO IT.
It does not help your reputation , your team, or your sponsor. Being politically correct is one of the basic surviving skill one must have.
What you said in private on the otherhand is your business for now.
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EPT
