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On May 08 2012 23:37 Shafanhow wrote:Show nested quote +On May 08 2012 23:24 Thrombozyt wrote:On May 08 2012 22:33 lorkac wrote:On May 08 2012 18:02 Thrombozyt wrote:
I'm against talking to the sponsors directly. Players do something you don't approve, then cease being a fan of this player. Don't watch him, root against him. As a viewer, you already have the choice to avoid a player, not watching his games.
Just because YOU think that something is unacceptable, doesn't mean it's punishable by e-sports-death.
If every time a sufficiently large group of viewers is offended by the actions of a player, the ralley and write the sponsors, then madness will ensue.
Example (hypothetical!):
I'm sure if organized properly, enough viewers were disgusted by IM_MVP cheesing against Naniwa in the GSL semi-finals. Lets go and talk to the IM sponsors and teach that cheesy noob a lesson. He robbed us of more entertaining games by choosing all-ins. Revolting!
Don't impose your views on all players. Just be a fan of players you like. Don't write to Quantic sponsors because Destiny was BM, write to Duckload or TLAF because White-Ra or Sheth are so manner! If you believe that one's views should not be imposed on others--then why do you wish people who think talking to sponsors is a good thing is actually an evil thing that should be stopped? Just because you disagree and are offended by the actions of people who are against bigotry does not mean you can dictate how those people act. If teams do not want this to happen again--then they set up strict guidelines as to how to properly act at all times when their players are publicly acting on their behalf. If the team thinks it is worth the risk--then they keep the player. They could have forced Destiny to apologize, they could have fined him, they could have given him all manners of punishment. But when things got tough they let him go like a bad habit. Don't get mad at letter writers simply because you don't like the decisions Quantic and Razer made. If you disagree with the decision, then write to Razer. I never tried or wanted to dictate how people act. I posted my views. I called for a less destructive response. See it this way: I strongly disagree with the people that went directly to the sponsors. How do I react? 1) I become 'less of a fan' of this person. If I oppose a view in a forum, I will most likely make a post because that's the nature of a forum. 2) I try to contact their parents/spouses/supervisors at work complaining about their behavior which is outrageous. Of course I choose the first option over the second, even if I strongly disagree and know some of those persons personally and can therefore write to persons in their real life. In the case of Destiny, people could have stopped watching him, which hurts him directly. They could have written to him directly. They could have written to his team. But instead they addressed the sponsors, who most likely didn't know about the incident and are KNOWN (from the orb case) to act on the safest side possible which is the dismissal of the players. Don't act like you didn't know what would happen, when you wrote to the sponsor. This excuse might have made you a bit slow, when used during the orb case. But since then, it is CLEAR that complaining to a sponsor directly about such a topic means the sacking of the player. You (and the others that wrote to Razer) apparently judged, that Destiny should fired for whatever he did. You as the vocal minority got him fired. The nature of such decisions means, that even IF I wrote Razer know, it wouldn't undo the damage. So instead IF I was as zealous in my actions as you, I would write to whoever gives you money and pressure him to cut you off from your income. Yeah, writing to the company I EARN my money from (it's not given just to clear that up) and telling them I told the sponsor of a starcraft player that he uses the N word on his stream is gonna get me fired every time. Sigh, Come on and get real, if Destiny or Orb or who ever had NOT used racial slurs these sponsors wouldn't give a damn. The reason these complaints carry weight is because they did something wrong.
Of course I wouldn't phrase it this way. I would just point out, how your actions highly displeased me and I wouldn't consider doing business with a company that prominently employs such a jerk. Of course I would first gather ~50-100 like-minded people (teh mob) and of course it won't work for any job.
All of this is irrelevant however, because I didn't choose the most extreme way. If you are in a situation where you are sponsored, how do you think you would feel if you know that there are people that will pull the trigger on you just because they can?
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On May 08 2012 23:40 Thrombozyt wrote:Show nested quote +On May 08 2012 23:11 lorkac wrote:On May 08 2012 22:59 Dfgj wrote:On May 08 2012 22:51 lorkac wrote:On May 08 2012 22:42 Dfgj wrote:
Man when I looked at the details of what happens its one use of a racist word, yet people are going on and on about spewing racism and bigotry.
You don't think you might be overblowing the issue a little there? Technically, what people who are against bigotry is fighting against is how accepted bigotted language is within the esports community as a whole and using Destiny as the stepping stone to enact an policy change in order to force teams to be more proactively careful of supporting players who are bigoted. The hope is that by enacting these policies, the starcraft culture itself will become less supportive of bigoted language and opinions overall, allowing the scene to become more and more acceptable as a mainstream mode of livelihood and marketing income source for companies that are not already supportive of eSports. For example, it would be nice if a company like, say, Levis or Bebe became interested in eSports and and attempted to make a mens product line of jackets, pants, shoes, wallets, etc.... But any chance they had of being interested in doing that goes the window when the market option is not only a fringe subculture, but a racist one at that. It's hard enough to get companies to take the fact that SC2 is a videogame seriously--if we also expect them to be okay with its player base calling people gooks and niggers then we'll never have a chance of pulling in the new business development opportunities. I highly an individual's personal stream is going to convince anyone that the entire market is a racist one, because of some bad language. As I've said before, if this was a tournament incident I'd agree with you, because tournaments are the mainstream while streaming is niche - for fans of that player. The issues I have with this argument is the same fervor is only directed here - yet people happily soak up IdrA's language, or forgive match fixing and other instances of cheating, the latter of which is far more of an issue. Bad language on an individual stream is massively less important than it, yet people see a case where they can be offended and away we go. The point of both this debate and this discussion is not to police Destiny specifically but to enact the general practice of keeping a tight leash on players like Destiny. If teams or sponsors started to realize that there will be public outcry--they will begin to police themselves before the next set of letters come. Also, when viewers realize that they're opinions (when sent to Sponsors) can actually be heard and responded to immediately--they'll become more and more willing to send mail to sponsors over time. The Orb incident started this trend, and the Destiny incident is putting it into the spotlight. As this trend continues, teams and Sponsors will no longer wait for a public outcry to happen. Suddenly Idra starts being more precise in his insults, suddenly Sheth's image or Stephano's image becomes the main goal for a "player image." We'll slowly get less and less bigoted payed players as the teams and sponsors start being more strict as to the behaviors of its players as a whole and not just individually. Suddenly we don't need to send letters to anyone for Idra calling someone a fag--because before he even calls someone a fag the team already asked him before the incident to stop calling his opponents fag in public. Idra will still call that guy a loser, an unfair cheeser, a fuckhead, an asswipe, etc... Because being offensive is not what is being policed yet.. Added a very important distinction. On a more personal note: If you really believe that it's worse to be called 'nigger' than to be called 'fuckhead', 'asswipe' and similar insults, then I'm not sure how you can call someone a bigot without being a giant hypocrite.
Calling someone a nigger is calling him less than human--because he's black.
Calling someone a fuckhead has no direct relation to race, creed or sex. It is just an insult.
No one was attempting to ban insults, simply racist language. Because we shouldn't find words that label race to be synonymous with insults. If I wanted to insult you, to call you a cheater, to call you unfair and not worthy of victory--I should tell you that instead of calling you asian (with the assumption that by calling you asian that I'm obviously calling you a cheater who is unworthy of victory)
There's a big difference between losing to someone and, while raging, typing out "fuck you you fucking cheesy cheater" and saying "gook"
No one had a problem with strong language and raging--people had a problem with racist language.
If you use english words, you're speaking english.
If you use french words, you're speaking french.
If you use bigoted words, you're speaking bigot.
All three modes of speech can be used to be offensive and insulting. However, being insulting is not what was being complained about.
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Lol.
I'm amazed of humans sometimes.
The amount of e-drama over a computer game, esports and nerds hacking away at eachother.
I dunno.
I find it all kinds of amusing.
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On May 08 2012 23:39 Orbiter wrote:Show nested quote +On May 08 2012 23:02 lorkac wrote:On May 08 2012 21:43 PeachTea wrote:On May 08 2012 20:16 avenmarine wrote:
Why do people want to blame the communtiy? Going to the sponsors isn't wrong, it's actually the only thing left do to. The excuse is "go to the teams first", but they do not listen. They wait til the situation explodes and it becomes too late. In every case the teams always have reasonable oppourinty to prevent these things but they just look the other way. Why is there 9000 threads blaming the people going to the sponsors but nobody telling teams to stop this from ever happening in the first place. We have never given any time for teams to give us a reply. Completely makes up another reality about how we gave teams the time to discuss these situations when they occurred and they completely just ignored us and looked the other way. Never happened. Teams should not have to wait for the public to point out that their player is going around calling people nigger while streaming. That's called being responsible for your product. You need to solve the defects *before* the public asks you to solve it. They do! It can take a little while to contact the player, and maybe even longer to discuss and put a statement out. If an incident happens where the player ragequits and goes to bed, there is no way for anyone to have a serious discussion about it until the next day. Going directly to the sponsor is like going behind someones back and telling their boss about how they did X thing Y times. If you have a gripe with somethign that had been done, Go to the player first, give them a chance to apologize. If not that, go to the team second. Give them a day or two to sort shit out. Going to the sponsor is a drastic action that, while it may knock StupidPlayerX from the sky, it can also ruin so much more.
Ignoring the fact that there was a 100+ thread on TL asking Destiny to stop and Destiny telling everyone to fuck off...
A team should not have to wait for the incident to happen before doing crowd control. In theory, it's not only part of the interview process to bring someone into a team, but those players need to be told early on that the behavior is not tolerated and in-team punishments needs to be already present as deterrence for such behavior. Furthermore, it should be made very clear that the players are not being paid to play videogames but are instead being paid as marketing tools to encourage sponsors to market their products through eSports. It should be made very clear to them that they have an image to uphold and they need to be told very specifically how to maintain that image as well as how to not sully that image.
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On May 08 2012 23:54 lorkac wrote:Show nested quote +On May 08 2012 23:40 Thrombozyt wrote:On May 08 2012 23:11 lorkac wrote:On May 08 2012 22:59 Dfgj wrote:On May 08 2012 22:51 lorkac wrote:On May 08 2012 22:42 Dfgj wrote:
Man when I looked at the details of what happens its one use of a racist word, yet people are going on and on about spewing racism and bigotry.
You don't think you might be overblowing the issue a little there? Technically, what people who are against bigotry is fighting against is how accepted bigotted language is within the esports community as a whole and using Destiny as the stepping stone to enact an policy change in order to force teams to be more proactively careful of supporting players who are bigoted. The hope is that by enacting these policies, the starcraft culture itself will become less supportive of bigoted language and opinions overall, allowing the scene to become more and more acceptable as a mainstream mode of livelihood and marketing income source for companies that are not already supportive of eSports. For example, it would be nice if a company like, say, Levis or Bebe became interested in eSports and and attempted to make a mens product line of jackets, pants, shoes, wallets, etc.... But any chance they had of being interested in doing that goes the window when the market option is not only a fringe subculture, but a racist one at that. It's hard enough to get companies to take the fact that SC2 is a videogame seriously--if we also expect them to be okay with its player base calling people gooks and niggers then we'll never have a chance of pulling in the new business development opportunities. I highly an individual's personal stream is going to convince anyone that the entire market is a racist one, because of some bad language. As I've said before, if this was a tournament incident I'd agree with you, because tournaments are the mainstream while streaming is niche - for fans of that player. The issues I have with this argument is the same fervor is only directed here - yet people happily soak up IdrA's language, or forgive match fixing and other instances of cheating, the latter of which is far more of an issue. Bad language on an individual stream is massively less important than it, yet people see a case where they can be offended and away we go. The point of both this debate and this discussion is not to police Destiny specifically but to enact the general practice of keeping a tight leash on players like Destiny. If teams or sponsors started to realize that there will be public outcry--they will begin to police themselves before the next set of letters come. Also, when viewers realize that they're opinions (when sent to Sponsors) can actually be heard and responded to immediately--they'll become more and more willing to send mail to sponsors over time. The Orb incident started this trend, and the Destiny incident is putting it into the spotlight. As this trend continues, teams and Sponsors will no longer wait for a public outcry to happen. Suddenly Idra starts being more precise in his insults, suddenly Sheth's image or Stephano's image becomes the main goal for a "player image." We'll slowly get less and less bigoted payed players as the teams and sponsors start being more strict as to the behaviors of its players as a whole and not just individually. Suddenly we don't need to send letters to anyone for Idra calling someone a fag--because before he even calls someone a fag the team already asked him before the incident to stop calling his opponents fag in public. Idra will still call that guy a loser, an unfair cheeser, a fuckhead, an asswipe, etc... Because being offensive is not what is being policed yet.. Added a very important distinction. On a more personal note: If you really believe that it's worse to be called 'nigger' than to be called 'fuckhead', 'asswipe' and similar insults, then I'm not sure how you can call someone a bigot without being a giant hypocrite. Calling someone a nigger is calling him less than human--because he's black. Calling someone a fuckhead has no direct relation to race, creed or sex. It is just an insult. No one was attempting to ban insults, simply racist language. Because we shouldn't find words that label race to be synonymous with insults. If I wanted to insult you, to call you a cheater, to call you unfair and not worthy of victory--I should tell you that instead of calling you asian (with the assumption that by calling you asian that I'm obviously calling you a cheater who is unworthy of victory) There's a big difference between losing to someone and, while raging, typing out "fuck you you fucking cheesy cheater" and saying "gook" No one had a problem with strong language and raging--people had a problem with racist language. If you use english words, you're speaking english. If you use french words, you're speaking french. If you use bigoted words, you're speaking bigot. All three modes of speech can be used to be offensive and insulting. However, being insulting is not what was being complained about.
Except that the context of the word is what is derrogatory not the word itself. This has been explained by comedians time and time again. WE make up what the word should be, the word itself, has no meaning.
So.... calling somebody a faggot or a nigger, doesn't neccesarily make it racist. You can call somebody a fag, without being against homosexuals, the word fag in this sentence, is treated as an insult, instead of a racial slur. There's a big difference of how you're saying a "bad" word.
And when you're raging, you take words and put them in a context of just insulting the other person, not nesscesarily being a racist.
I've called people a fag irl before, and I have the highest respect for homosexuals myself. So what does that make me? A homophope? No.
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On May 08 2012 23:54 lorkac wrote:Show nested quote +On May 08 2012 23:40 Thrombozyt wrote:On May 08 2012 23:11 lorkac wrote:On May 08 2012 22:59 Dfgj wrote:On May 08 2012 22:51 lorkac wrote:On May 08 2012 22:42 Dfgj wrote:
Man when I looked at the details of what happens its one use of a racist word, yet people are going on and on about spewing racism and bigotry.
You don't think you might be overblowing the issue a little there? Technically, what people who are against bigotry is fighting against is how accepted bigotted language is within the esports community as a whole and using Destiny as the stepping stone to enact an policy change in order to force teams to be more proactively careful of supporting players who are bigoted. The hope is that by enacting these policies, the starcraft culture itself will become less supportive of bigoted language and opinions overall, allowing the scene to become more and more acceptable as a mainstream mode of livelihood and marketing income source for companies that are not already supportive of eSports. For example, it would be nice if a company like, say, Levis or Bebe became interested in eSports and and attempted to make a mens product line of jackets, pants, shoes, wallets, etc.... But any chance they had of being interested in doing that goes the window when the market option is not only a fringe subculture, but a racist one at that. It's hard enough to get companies to take the fact that SC2 is a videogame seriously--if we also expect them to be okay with its player base calling people gooks and niggers then we'll never have a chance of pulling in the new business development opportunities. I highly an individual's personal stream is going to convince anyone that the entire market is a racist one, because of some bad language. As I've said before, if this was a tournament incident I'd agree with you, because tournaments are the mainstream while streaming is niche - for fans of that player. The issues I have with this argument is the same fervor is only directed here - yet people happily soak up IdrA's language, or forgive match fixing and other instances of cheating, the latter of which is far more of an issue. Bad language on an individual stream is massively less important than it, yet people see a case where they can be offended and away we go. The point of both this debate and this discussion is not to police Destiny specifically but to enact the general practice of keeping a tight leash on players like Destiny. If teams or sponsors started to realize that there will be public outcry--they will begin to police themselves before the next set of letters come. Also, when viewers realize that they're opinions (when sent to Sponsors) can actually be heard and responded to immediately--they'll become more and more willing to send mail to sponsors over time. The Orb incident started this trend, and the Destiny incident is putting it into the spotlight. As this trend continues, teams and Sponsors will no longer wait for a public outcry to happen. Suddenly Idra starts being more precise in his insults, suddenly Sheth's image or Stephano's image becomes the main goal for a "player image." We'll slowly get less and less bigoted payed players as the teams and sponsors start being more strict as to the behaviors of its players as a whole and not just individually. Suddenly we don't need to send letters to anyone for Idra calling someone a fag--because before he even calls someone a fag the team already asked him before the incident to stop calling his opponents fag in public. Idra will still call that guy a loser, an unfair cheeser, a fuckhead, an asswipe, etc... Because being offensive is not what is being policed yet.. Added a very important distinction. On a more personal note: If you really believe that it's worse to be called 'nigger' than to be called 'fuckhead', 'asswipe' and similar insults, then I'm not sure how you can call someone a bigot without being a giant hypocrite. Calling someone a nigger is calling him less than human--because he's black. Calling someone a fuckhead has no direct relation to race, creed or sex. It is just an insult. No one was attempting to ban insults, simply racist language. Because we shouldn't find words that label race to be synonymous with insults. If I wanted to insult you, to call you a cheater, to call you unfair and not worthy of victory--I should tell you that instead of calling you asian (with the assumption that by calling you asian that I'm obviously calling you a cheater who is unworthy of victory) There's a big difference between losing to someone and, while raging, typing out "fuck you you fucking cheesy cheater" and saying "gook" No one had a problem with strong language and raging--people had a problem with racist language. If you use english words, you're speaking english. If you use french words, you're speaking french. If you use bigoted words, you're speaking bigot. All three modes of speech can be used to be offensive and insulting. However, being insulting is not what was being complained about.
I should have known, not to give you a chance to avoid the topic. Instead of adressing
a) how out of the many tools available to you in order to express disagreement, you chose the one that was bound to get a player sacked and
b) how the current incident sets a precedent for the sacking of players calling another player 'fuckhead', you focussed on
c) my personal estimation, that the insult was the bad thing rather than the exact nature of the insult.
Easy dodge I guess...
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On May 08 2012 23:59 MasterFischer wrote:
Lol.
I'm amazed of humans sometimes.
The amount of e-drama over a computer game, esports and nerds hacking away at eachother.
I dunno.
I find it all kinds of amusing.
Technically, the drama is over the business practice of Razer paying someone to represent their company who is a racist--and the fallout occurring from that.
There are those who are happy with Razer's decision, there are those who aren't.
For example, I never myself sent a letter to Razer because I don't really care what Destiny says. Does this mean that others should not have sent letters to Razer? No. It simply means that others cared more than I did. A lot of people are taking the actions of those letter writers very personally saying that by being viewers who dislike racism that the letter writers are somehow attacking free speech by practicing it.
I don't know the logic either, but it's there.
I like the steps Razer is making to becoming the precedent of how racial bigotry is treated on a business level within esports. I like that the viewers have some say as to how they want the products to be like. I don't like it that the letter writers are being attacked and policed simply because they said out loud what others want to keep silent. To me, racism is wrong and it's a good thing it was pointed out. Others disagree with this sentiment wanting to stand behind free speech and hurting esports.
I had assumed that racism is racism--but I guess TL is not the place for that kind of logic.
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On May 08 2012 23:59 MasterFischer wrote:
Lol.
I'm amazed of humans sometimes.
The amount of e-drama over a computer game, esports and nerds hacking away at eachother.
I dunno.
I find it all kinds of amusing.
Drama is bound to happen when the community and Esports gets bigger.
There is nothing bad about to be honest. It just gives people something to talk about, which makes sure that things won't get too boring. It is not like people aren't interested in these kind of stuff either. I am pretty sure that you have come here to read comments and ''feed'' on the drama that occurs or did you really just come here to post that?
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On May 08 2012 23:51 Thrombozyt wrote:Show nested quote +On May 08 2012 23:37 Shafanhow wrote:On May 08 2012 23:24 Thrombozyt wrote:On May 08 2012 22:33 lorkac wrote:On May 08 2012 18:02 Thrombozyt wrote:
I'm against talking to the sponsors directly. Players do something you don't approve, then cease being a fan of this player. Don't watch him, root against him. As a viewer, you already have the choice to avoid a player, not watching his games.
Just because YOU think that something is unacceptable, doesn't mean it's punishable by e-sports-death.
If every time a sufficiently large group of viewers is offended by the actions of a player, the ralley and write the sponsors, then madness will ensue.
Example (hypothetical!):
I'm sure if organized properly, enough viewers were disgusted by IM_MVP cheesing against Naniwa in the GSL semi-finals. Lets go and talk to the IM sponsors and teach that cheesy noob a lesson. He robbed us of more entertaining games by choosing all-ins. Revolting!
Don't impose your views on all players. Just be a fan of players you like. Don't write to Quantic sponsors because Destiny was BM, write to Duckload or TLAF because White-Ra or Sheth are so manner! If you believe that one's views should not be imposed on others--then why do you wish people who think talking to sponsors is a good thing is actually an evil thing that should be stopped? Just because you disagree and are offended by the actions of people who are against bigotry does not mean you can dictate how those people act. If teams do not want this to happen again--then they set up strict guidelines as to how to properly act at all times when their players are publicly acting on their behalf. If the team thinks it is worth the risk--then they keep the player. They could have forced Destiny to apologize, they could have fined him, they could have given him all manners of punishment. But when things got tough they let him go like a bad habit. Don't get mad at letter writers simply because you don't like the decisions Quantic and Razer made. If you disagree with the decision, then write to Razer. I never tried or wanted to dictate how people act. I posted my views. I called for a less destructive response. See it this way: I strongly disagree with the people that went directly to the sponsors. How do I react? 1) I become 'less of a fan' of this person. If I oppose a view in a forum, I will most likely make a post because that's the nature of a forum. 2) I try to contact their parents/spouses/supervisors at work complaining about their behavior which is outrageous. Of course I choose the first option over the second, even if I strongly disagree and know some of those persons personally and can therefore write to persons in their real life. In the case of Destiny, people could have stopped watching him, which hurts him directly. They could have written to him directly. They could have written to his team. But instead they addressed the sponsors, who most likely didn't know about the incident and are KNOWN (from the orb case) to act on the safest side possible which is the dismissal of the players. Don't act like you didn't know what would happen, when you wrote to the sponsor. This excuse might have made you a bit slow, when used during the orb case. But since then, it is CLEAR that complaining to a sponsor directly about such a topic means the sacking of the player. You (and the others that wrote to Razer) apparently judged, that Destiny should fired for whatever he did. You as the vocal minority got him fired. The nature of such decisions means, that even IF I wrote Razer know, it wouldn't undo the damage. So instead IF I was as zealous in my actions as you, I would write to whoever gives you money and pressure him to cut you off from your income. Yeah, writing to the company I EARN my money from (it's not given just to clear that up) and telling them I told the sponsor of a starcraft player that he uses the N word on his stream is gonna get me fired every time. Sigh, Come on and get real, if Destiny or Orb or who ever had NOT used racial slurs these sponsors wouldn't give a damn. The reason these complaints carry weight is because they did something wrong. Of course I wouldn't phrase it this way. I would just point out, how your actions highly displeased me and I wouldn't consider doing business with a company that prominently employs such a jerk. Of course I would first gather ~50-100 like-minded people (teh mob) and of course it won't work for any job. All of this is irrelevant however, because I didn't choose the most extreme way. If you are in a situation where you are sponsored, how do you think you would feel if you know that there are people that will pull the trigger on you just because they can? Show me the example of people complaining to a starcraft players sponsors and getting results like in the cases of Destiny or Orb where racial slurs were not an issue. I don't use racial slurs so I guess my job's secure.
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On May 09 2012 00:07 Thrombozyt wrote:Show nested quote +On May 08 2012 23:54 lorkac wrote:On May 08 2012 23:40 Thrombozyt wrote:On May 08 2012 23:11 lorkac wrote:On May 08 2012 22:59 Dfgj wrote:On May 08 2012 22:51 lorkac wrote:On May 08 2012 22:42 Dfgj wrote:
Man when I looked at the details of what happens its one use of a racist word, yet people are going on and on about spewing racism and bigotry.
You don't think you might be overblowing the issue a little there? Technically, what people who are against bigotry is fighting against is how accepted bigotted language is within the esports community as a whole and using Destiny as the stepping stone to enact an policy change in order to force teams to be more proactively careful of supporting players who are bigoted. The hope is that by enacting these policies, the starcraft culture itself will become less supportive of bigoted language and opinions overall, allowing the scene to become more and more acceptable as a mainstream mode of livelihood and marketing income source for companies that are not already supportive of eSports. For example, it would be nice if a company like, say, Levis or Bebe became interested in eSports and and attempted to make a mens product line of jackets, pants, shoes, wallets, etc.... But any chance they had of being interested in doing that goes the window when the market option is not only a fringe subculture, but a racist one at that. It's hard enough to get companies to take the fact that SC2 is a videogame seriously--if we also expect them to be okay with its player base calling people gooks and niggers then we'll never have a chance of pulling in the new business development opportunities. I highly an individual's personal stream is going to convince anyone that the entire market is a racist one, because of some bad language. As I've said before, if this was a tournament incident I'd agree with you, because tournaments are the mainstream while streaming is niche - for fans of that player. The issues I have with this argument is the same fervor is only directed here - yet people happily soak up IdrA's language, or forgive match fixing and other instances of cheating, the latter of which is far more of an issue. Bad language on an individual stream is massively less important than it, yet people see a case where they can be offended and away we go. The point of both this debate and this discussion is not to police Destiny specifically but to enact the general practice of keeping a tight leash on players like Destiny. If teams or sponsors started to realize that there will be public outcry--they will begin to police themselves before the next set of letters come. Also, when viewers realize that they're opinions (when sent to Sponsors) can actually be heard and responded to immediately--they'll become more and more willing to send mail to sponsors over time. The Orb incident started this trend, and the Destiny incident is putting it into the spotlight. As this trend continues, teams and Sponsors will no longer wait for a public outcry to happen. Suddenly Idra starts being more precise in his insults, suddenly Sheth's image or Stephano's image becomes the main goal for a "player image." We'll slowly get less and less bigoted payed players as the teams and sponsors start being more strict as to the behaviors of its players as a whole and not just individually. Suddenly we don't need to send letters to anyone for Idra calling someone a fag--because before he even calls someone a fag the team already asked him before the incident to stop calling his opponents fag in public. Idra will still call that guy a loser, an unfair cheeser, a fuckhead, an asswipe, etc... Because being offensive is not what is being policed yet.. Added a very important distinction. On a more personal note: If you really believe that it's worse to be called 'nigger' than to be called 'fuckhead', 'asswipe' and similar insults, then I'm not sure how you can call someone a bigot without being a giant hypocrite. Calling someone a nigger is calling him less than human--because he's black. Calling someone a fuckhead has no direct relation to race, creed or sex. It is just an insult. No one was attempting to ban insults, simply racist language. Because we shouldn't find words that label race to be synonymous with insults. If I wanted to insult you, to call you a cheater, to call you unfair and not worthy of victory--I should tell you that instead of calling you asian (with the assumption that by calling you asian that I'm obviously calling you a cheater who is unworthy of victory) There's a big difference between losing to someone and, while raging, typing out "fuck you you fucking cheesy cheater" and saying "gook" No one had a problem with strong language and raging--people had a problem with racist language. If you use english words, you're speaking english. If you use french words, you're speaking french. If you use bigoted words, you're speaking bigot. All three modes of speech can be used to be offensive and insulting. However, being insulting is not what was being complained about. I should have known, not to give you a chance to avoid the topic. Instead of adressing a) how out of the many tools available to you in order to express disagreement, you chose the one that was bound to get a player sacked and b) how the current incident sets a precedent for the sacking of players calling another player 'fuckhead', you focussed on c) my personal estimation, that the insult was the bad thing rather than the exact nature of the insult. Easy dodge I guess...
A.) I chose none--I didn't care about Destiny either or so I didn't send a letter to anyone, I simply disagreed with him.
B.) Insulting players was not the reason people sent letters--it was very specifically the fact that he was recorded calling someone a gook while being paid both by razer and his stream income.
C.) The reason Destiny called someone a gook was because he was upset. Destiny used the word gook because to him, calling someone asian is the same as calling them undeserving of victory. Which is racist language. People did not like it that someone using racist language was being supported by Razer--so they contacted Razer to complain about the product Razer was holding.
If you disagree with what Razer decided to do with the facts at hand, talk to Razer about it, not TL.
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On May 09 2012 00:03 MasterFischer wrote:Show nested quote +On May 08 2012 23:54 lorkac wrote:On May 08 2012 23:40 Thrombozyt wrote:On May 08 2012 23:11 lorkac wrote:On May 08 2012 22:59 Dfgj wrote:On May 08 2012 22:51 lorkac wrote:On May 08 2012 22:42 Dfgj wrote:
Man when I looked at the details of what happens its one use of a racist word, yet people are going on and on about spewing racism and bigotry.
You don't think you might be overblowing the issue a little there? Technically, what people who are against bigotry is fighting against is how accepted bigotted language is within the esports community as a whole and using Destiny as the stepping stone to enact an policy change in order to force teams to be more proactively careful of supporting players who are bigoted. The hope is that by enacting these policies, the starcraft culture itself will become less supportive of bigoted language and opinions overall, allowing the scene to become more and more acceptable as a mainstream mode of livelihood and marketing income source for companies that are not already supportive of eSports. For example, it would be nice if a company like, say, Levis or Bebe became interested in eSports and and attempted to make a mens product line of jackets, pants, shoes, wallets, etc.... But any chance they had of being interested in doing that goes the window when the market option is not only a fringe subculture, but a racist one at that. It's hard enough to get companies to take the fact that SC2 is a videogame seriously--if we also expect them to be okay with its player base calling people gooks and niggers then we'll never have a chance of pulling in the new business development opportunities. I highly an individual's personal stream is going to convince anyone that the entire market is a racist one, because of some bad language. As I've said before, if this was a tournament incident I'd agree with you, because tournaments are the mainstream while streaming is niche - for fans of that player. The issues I have with this argument is the same fervor is only directed here - yet people happily soak up IdrA's language, or forgive match fixing and other instances of cheating, the latter of which is far more of an issue. Bad language on an individual stream is massively less important than it, yet people see a case where they can be offended and away we go. The point of both this debate and this discussion is not to police Destiny specifically but to enact the general practice of keeping a tight leash on players like Destiny. If teams or sponsors started to realize that there will be public outcry--they will begin to police themselves before the next set of letters come. Also, when viewers realize that they're opinions (when sent to Sponsors) can actually be heard and responded to immediately--they'll become more and more willing to send mail to sponsors over time. The Orb incident started this trend, and the Destiny incident is putting it into the spotlight. As this trend continues, teams and Sponsors will no longer wait for a public outcry to happen. Suddenly Idra starts being more precise in his insults, suddenly Sheth's image or Stephano's image becomes the main goal for a "player image." We'll slowly get less and less bigoted payed players as the teams and sponsors start being more strict as to the behaviors of its players as a whole and not just individually. Suddenly we don't need to send letters to anyone for Idra calling someone a fag--because before he even calls someone a fag the team already asked him before the incident to stop calling his opponents fag in public. Idra will still call that guy a loser, an unfair cheeser, a fuckhead, an asswipe, etc... Because being offensive is not what is being policed yet.. Added a very important distinction. On a more personal note: If you really believe that it's worse to be called 'nigger' than to be called 'fuckhead', 'asswipe' and similar insults, then I'm not sure how you can call someone a bigot without being a giant hypocrite. Calling someone a nigger is calling him less than human--because he's black. Calling someone a fuckhead has no direct relation to race, creed or sex. It is just an insult. No one was attempting to ban insults, simply racist language. Because we shouldn't find words that label race to be synonymous with insults. If I wanted to insult you, to call you a cheater, to call you unfair and not worthy of victory--I should tell you that instead of calling you asian (with the assumption that by calling you asian that I'm obviously calling you a cheater who is unworthy of victory) There's a big difference between losing to someone and, while raging, typing out "fuck you you fucking cheesy cheater" and saying "gook" No one had a problem with strong language and raging--people had a problem with racist language. If you use english words, you're speaking english. If you use french words, you're speaking french. If you use bigoted words, you're speaking bigot. All three modes of speech can be used to be offensive and insulting. However, being insulting is not what was being complained about. Except that the context of the word is what is derrogatory not the word itself. This has been explained by comedians time and time again. WE make up what the word should be, the word itself, has no meaning. So.... calling somebody a faggot or a nigger, doesn't neccesarily make it racist. You can call somebody a fag, without being against homosexuals, the word fag in this sentence, is treated as an insult, instead of a racial slur. There's a big difference of how you're saying a "bad" word. And when you're raging, you take words and put them in a context of just insulting the other person, not nesscesarily being a racist. I've called people a fag irl before, and I have the highest respect for homosexuals myself. So what does that make me? A homophope? No.
Comedians are paid to say offensive things. Complain to their agents and sponsors--and no one will do anything. Destiny was not paid to be racist--so when people complained to his sponsors, the sponsors decided to jump ship.
No one chased out Destiny. His sponsors were simply being told that he was acting the way he was acting. His sponsors didn't like that--and so they let him go. If I walked up to the venue manager of a comedy club and told him that the comedian was saying racist things--he'd tell me "yeah, because I'm paying him to say it."
This is business, not personal, no need to think it is.
btw
You being okay with calling people you dislike a fag is a sign that you are part of a homophobic culture. Is it extreme homophobia? Will you tie them up to your trailer and drag them to their deaths? Hopefully not. But you don't have to kill gay people to be homophobic.
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On May 08 2012 23:51 Thrombozyt wrote:
how do you think you would feel if you know that there are people that will pull the trigger on you just because they can?
That's called most jobs.
People who work for a living know this, and hence act professional.
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On May 09 2012 00:14 lorkac wrote:
C.) The reason Destiny called someone a gook was because he was upset. Destiny used the word gook because to him, calling someone asian is the same as calling them undeserving of victory.
Oh, we've got a psychoanalyst/mind-reader here.
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On May 09 2012 00:24 Dfgj wrote:Show nested quote +On May 09 2012 00:14 lorkac wrote:
C.) The reason Destiny called someone a gook was because he was upset. Destiny used the word gook because to him, calling someone asian is the same as calling them undeserving of victory. Oh, we've got a psychoanalyst/mind-reader here.
He wanted to insult someone--so he called him asian. Apparently calling someone asian is an insult.
I don't need to be a mind reader, just a reader.
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All of the letter writing thoroughly displeases me. However the level of professionalism will need to increase within esports as it gains more and more exposure. Its a pity anonymous netizens are so hypersensitive.
I do think players need more direction from their teams about how to act even media training to help them put themselves out there in a positive light (I think EG does this very well, even with greg).
But writing letters to sponsors is only going to have long term negative impacts for esports and the events that trigger these letters, don't have half of the impact the actual letters do.
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On May 09 2012 00:14 lorkac wrote:Show nested quote +On May 09 2012 00:07 Thrombozyt wrote:On May 08 2012 23:54 lorkac wrote:On May 08 2012 23:40 Thrombozyt wrote:On May 08 2012 23:11 lorkac wrote:On May 08 2012 22:59 Dfgj wrote:On May 08 2012 22:51 lorkac wrote:On May 08 2012 22:42 Dfgj wrote:
Man when I looked at the details of what happens its one use of a racist word, yet people are going on and on about spewing racism and bigotry.
You don't think you might be overblowing the issue a little there? Technically, what people who are against bigotry is fighting against is how accepted bigotted language is within the esports community as a whole and using Destiny as the stepping stone to enact an policy change in order to force teams to be more proactively careful of supporting players who are bigoted. The hope is that by enacting these policies, the starcraft culture itself will become less supportive of bigoted language and opinions overall, allowing the scene to become more and more acceptable as a mainstream mode of livelihood and marketing income source for companies that are not already supportive of eSports. For example, it would be nice if a company like, say, Levis or Bebe became interested in eSports and and attempted to make a mens product line of jackets, pants, shoes, wallets, etc.... But any chance they had of being interested in doing that goes the window when the market option is not only a fringe subculture, but a racist one at that. It's hard enough to get companies to take the fact that SC2 is a videogame seriously--if we also expect them to be okay with its player base calling people gooks and niggers then we'll never have a chance of pulling in the new business development opportunities. I highly an individual's personal stream is going to convince anyone that the entire market is a racist one, because of some bad language. As I've said before, if this was a tournament incident I'd agree with you, because tournaments are the mainstream while streaming is niche - for fans of that player. The issues I have with this argument is the same fervor is only directed here - yet people happily soak up IdrA's language, or forgive match fixing and other instances of cheating, the latter of which is far more of an issue. Bad language on an individual stream is massively less important than it, yet people see a case where they can be offended and away we go. The point of both this debate and this discussion is not to police Destiny specifically but to enact the general practice of keeping a tight leash on players like Destiny. If teams or sponsors started to realize that there will be public outcry--they will begin to police themselves before the next set of letters come. Also, when viewers realize that they're opinions (when sent to Sponsors) can actually be heard and responded to immediately--they'll become more and more willing to send mail to sponsors over time. The Orb incident started this trend, and the Destiny incident is putting it into the spotlight. As this trend continues, teams and Sponsors will no longer wait for a public outcry to happen. Suddenly Idra starts being more precise in his insults, suddenly Sheth's image or Stephano's image becomes the main goal for a "player image." We'll slowly get less and less bigoted payed players as the teams and sponsors start being more strict as to the behaviors of its players as a whole and not just individually. Suddenly we don't need to send letters to anyone for Idra calling someone a fag--because before he even calls someone a fag the team already asked him before the incident to stop calling his opponents fag in public. Idra will still call that guy a loser, an unfair cheeser, a fuckhead, an asswipe, etc... Because being offensive is not what is being policed yet.. Added a very important distinction. On a more personal note: If you really believe that it's worse to be called 'nigger' than to be called 'fuckhead', 'asswipe' and similar insults, then I'm not sure how you can call someone a bigot without being a giant hypocrite. Calling someone a nigger is calling him less than human--because he's black. Calling someone a fuckhead has no direct relation to race, creed or sex. It is just an insult. No one was attempting to ban insults, simply racist language. Because we shouldn't find words that label race to be synonymous with insults. If I wanted to insult you, to call you a cheater, to call you unfair and not worthy of victory--I should tell you that instead of calling you asian (with the assumption that by calling you asian that I'm obviously calling you a cheater who is unworthy of victory) There's a big difference between losing to someone and, while raging, typing out "fuck you you fucking cheesy cheater" and saying "gook" No one had a problem with strong language and raging--people had a problem with racist language. If you use english words, you're speaking english. If you use french words, you're speaking french. If you use bigoted words, you're speaking bigot. All three modes of speech can be used to be offensive and insulting. However, being insulting is not what was being complained about. I should have known, not to give you a chance to avoid the topic. Instead of adressing a) how out of the many tools available to you in order to express disagreement, you chose the one that was bound to get a player sacked and b) how the current incident sets a precedent for the sacking of players calling another player 'fuckhead', you focussed on c) my personal estimation, that the insult was the bad thing rather than the exact nature of the insult. Easy dodge I guess... A.) I chose none--I didn't care about Destiny either or so I didn't send a letter to anyone, I simply disagreed with him. B.) Insulting players was not the reason people sent letters--it was very specifically the fact that he was recorded calling someone a gook while being paid both by razer and his stream income. C.) The reason Destiny called someone a gook was because he was upset. Destiny used the word gook because to him, calling someone asian is the same as calling them undeserving of victory. Which is racist language. People did not like it that someone using racist language was being supported by Razer--so they contacted Razer to complain about the product Razer was holding. If you disagree with what Razer decided to do with the facts at hand, talk to Razer about it, not TL.
A) You did not send a letter yourself but you obviously condone and defend the practise. Do you think it is right to get someone fired by appealing to the highest authority, before talking to his immediate supervisor in a manner where other measures are possible?
B) I know the reason why the letter was sent. But do you think that the consequences would have been different, had he insulted his opponent with explicit language instead of racial slurs?
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Its funny--this community, at times, can almost seem good! Then you realize it's a bunch of sad nerds desperate for any grain of attention they can get. It's disheartening to see so many people working for esports, when the community is really just a bunch of butthurt teenagers with too much time on their hands and an overinflated sense of importance :/
User was warned for this post
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On May 09 2012 00:35 Thrombozyt wrote:Show nested quote +On May 09 2012 00:14 lorkac wrote:On May 09 2012 00:07 Thrombozyt wrote:On May 08 2012 23:54 lorkac wrote:On May 08 2012 23:40 Thrombozyt wrote:On May 08 2012 23:11 lorkac wrote:On May 08 2012 22:59 Dfgj wrote:On May 08 2012 22:51 lorkac wrote:On May 08 2012 22:42 Dfgj wrote:
Man when I looked at the details of what happens its one use of a racist word, yet people are going on and on about spewing racism and bigotry.
You don't think you might be overblowing the issue a little there? Technically, what people who are against bigotry is fighting against is how accepted bigotted language is within the esports community as a whole and using Destiny as the stepping stone to enact an policy change in order to force teams to be more proactively careful of supporting players who are bigoted. The hope is that by enacting these policies, the starcraft culture itself will become less supportive of bigoted language and opinions overall, allowing the scene to become more and more acceptable as a mainstream mode of livelihood and marketing income source for companies that are not already supportive of eSports. For example, it would be nice if a company like, say, Levis or Bebe became interested in eSports and and attempted to make a mens product line of jackets, pants, shoes, wallets, etc.... But any chance they had of being interested in doing that goes the window when the market option is not only a fringe subculture, but a racist one at that. It's hard enough to get companies to take the fact that SC2 is a videogame seriously--if we also expect them to be okay with its player base calling people gooks and niggers then we'll never have a chance of pulling in the new business development opportunities. I highly an individual's personal stream is going to convince anyone that the entire market is a racist one, because of some bad language. As I've said before, if this was a tournament incident I'd agree with you, because tournaments are the mainstream while streaming is niche - for fans of that player. The issues I have with this argument is the same fervor is only directed here - yet people happily soak up IdrA's language, or forgive match fixing and other instances of cheating, the latter of which is far more of an issue. Bad language on an individual stream is massively less important than it, yet people see a case where they can be offended and away we go. The point of both this debate and this discussion is not to police Destiny specifically but to enact the general practice of keeping a tight leash on players like Destiny. If teams or sponsors started to realize that there will be public outcry--they will begin to police themselves before the next set of letters come. Also, when viewers realize that they're opinions (when sent to Sponsors) can actually be heard and responded to immediately--they'll become more and more willing to send mail to sponsors over time. The Orb incident started this trend, and the Destiny incident is putting it into the spotlight. As this trend continues, teams and Sponsors will no longer wait for a public outcry to happen. Suddenly Idra starts being more precise in his insults, suddenly Sheth's image or Stephano's image becomes the main goal for a "player image." We'll slowly get less and less bigoted payed players as the teams and sponsors start being more strict as to the behaviors of its players as a whole and not just individually. Suddenly we don't need to send letters to anyone for Idra calling someone a fag--because before he even calls someone a fag the team already asked him before the incident to stop calling his opponents fag in public. Idra will still call that guy a loser, an unfair cheeser, a fuckhead, an asswipe, etc... Because being offensive is not what is being policed yet.. Added a very important distinction. On a more personal note: If you really believe that it's worse to be called 'nigger' than to be called 'fuckhead', 'asswipe' and similar insults, then I'm not sure how you can call someone a bigot without being a giant hypocrite. Calling someone a nigger is calling him less than human--because he's black. Calling someone a fuckhead has no direct relation to race, creed or sex. It is just an insult. No one was attempting to ban insults, simply racist language. Because we shouldn't find words that label race to be synonymous with insults. If I wanted to insult you, to call you a cheater, to call you unfair and not worthy of victory--I should tell you that instead of calling you asian (with the assumption that by calling you asian that I'm obviously calling you a cheater who is unworthy of victory) There's a big difference between losing to someone and, while raging, typing out "fuck you you fucking cheesy cheater" and saying "gook" No one had a problem with strong language and raging--people had a problem with racist language. If you use english words, you're speaking english. If you use french words, you're speaking french. If you use bigoted words, you're speaking bigot. All three modes of speech can be used to be offensive and insulting. However, being insulting is not what was being complained about. I should have known, not to give you a chance to avoid the topic. Instead of adressing a) how out of the many tools available to you in order to express disagreement, you chose the one that was bound to get a player sacked and b) how the current incident sets a precedent for the sacking of players calling another player 'fuckhead', you focussed on c) my personal estimation, that the insult was the bad thing rather than the exact nature of the insult. Easy dodge I guess... A.) I chose none--I didn't care about Destiny either or so I didn't send a letter to anyone, I simply disagreed with him. B.) Insulting players was not the reason people sent letters--it was very specifically the fact that he was recorded calling someone a gook while being paid both by razer and his stream income. C.) The reason Destiny called someone a gook was because he was upset. Destiny used the word gook because to him, calling someone asian is the same as calling them undeserving of victory. Which is racist language. People did not like it that someone using racist language was being supported by Razer--so they contacted Razer to complain about the product Razer was holding. If you disagree with what Razer decided to do with the facts at hand, talk to Razer about it, not TL. A) You did not send a letter yourself but you obviously condone and defend the practise. Do you think it is right to get someone fired by appealing to the highest authority, before talking to his immediate supervisor in a manner where other measures are possible? B) I know the reason why the letter was sent. But do you think that the consequences would have been different, had he insulted his opponent with explicit language instead of racial slurs?
A.) How I think something is handled does not define how others think it is handled. I don't rule others, I only rule myself.
But if I had a defective or dangerous or inappropriate product--say I buy christmas lights for christmas and I end up with 200 dildos that I can't hang on the tree because I don't want my family to think I like dildoes, then I call the company to complain.
B.) I think if it was just explicit language instead of racial slurs--a lot less people would have sent letter ans so Razer would not have cared.
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On May 09 2012 00:37 cmcaneff5502 wrote:
Its funny--this community, at times, can almost seem good! Then you realize it's a bunch of sad nerds desperate for any grain of attention they can get. It's disheartening to see so many people working for esports, when the community is really just a bunch of butthurt teenagers with too much time on their hands and an overinflated sense of importance :/
Are you saying that people should not be against racism within the subculture they are in?
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I think more accountability should be upheld by the sponsors/teams. Both in Orb's case and Destiny's case it wasn't something new, in Orb's case it was something he'd done months or even a year previously and in Destiny's case he's been saying politically incorrect things since time immemorial. Shouldn't teams and sponsors be a little bit more aware of who they choose to represent them?
The reason I bring this up is that witch-hunts and lynch mobs are not likely going anywhere, not only gamers, but people in general have loved getting angry and tearing people down forever. So it comes down to the teams and sponsors who are the ones actually in a position to dish out judgement to know where they stand, where their "spokesplayers/teams" stand and then repercussions based upon the current actions and events that transpired, instead of based on the community reaction to those events.
Also, this is addressed to teams and sponsors, is negative publicity really bad publicity? Such a "scandal" is honestly as good an opportunity as it is a crisis (boom I watch Game of Thrones!  Why not have the player attend sensitivity training and invite a guest speaker to hold a forum or topical discussion on the teams stream interactively with the chat? Being constructive and adding to a community is always a better choice than removing from a community.
Finally, in the future we may live in a Utopian society where people are mature and reasoned, until then, more accountable management on the organizational side would really limit the fallout. Of course, this is all based on the assumption that players, casters, teams and personalities are not just commodities which are easily replaced if they've ever made a mistake, past or present. I unfortunately think that this may be the case though.
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