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On May 09 2012 00:42 lorkac wrote:Show nested quote +On May 09 2012 00:37 cmcaneff5502 wrote:
Its funny--this community, at times, can almost seem good! Then you realize it's a bunch of sad nerds desperate for any grain of attention they can get. It's disheartening to see so many people working for esports, when the community is really just a bunch of butthurt teenagers with too much time on their hands and an overinflated sense of importance :/ Are you saying that people should not be against racism within the subculture they are in?
Just read the last 3 pages and you have about half of all posts submitted, you have made your point now drop it maybe? You have no authority on this subject as anyone else who is posting, its all opinion and you have surely made yours now as the collective of your posts from this thread would have the content size of a Leo Tolstoy novel. I have posted a few times on this subject aswell, but like most do not feel the need to try and convince/bully others into my way of thinking with spamming posts.
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On May 09 2012 00:41 lorkac wrote:Show nested quote +On May 09 2012 00:35 Thrombozyt wrote:On May 09 2012 00:14 lorkac wrote:On May 09 2012 00:07 Thrombozyt wrote:On May 08 2012 23:54 lorkac wrote:On May 08 2012 23:40 Thrombozyt wrote:On May 08 2012 23:11 lorkac wrote:On May 08 2012 22:59 Dfgj wrote:On May 08 2012 22:51 lorkac wrote:On May 08 2012 22:42 Dfgj wrote:
Man when I looked at the details of what happens its one use of a racist word, yet people are going on and on about spewing racism and bigotry.
You don't think you might be overblowing the issue a little there? Technically, what people who are against bigotry is fighting against is how accepted bigotted language is within the esports community as a whole and using Destiny as the stepping stone to enact an policy change in order to force teams to be more proactively careful of supporting players who are bigoted. The hope is that by enacting these policies, the starcraft culture itself will become less supportive of bigoted language and opinions overall, allowing the scene to become more and more acceptable as a mainstream mode of livelihood and marketing income source for companies that are not already supportive of eSports. For example, it would be nice if a company like, say, Levis or Bebe became interested in eSports and and attempted to make a mens product line of jackets, pants, shoes, wallets, etc.... But any chance they had of being interested in doing that goes the window when the market option is not only a fringe subculture, but a racist one at that. It's hard enough to get companies to take the fact that SC2 is a videogame seriously--if we also expect them to be okay with its player base calling people gooks and niggers then we'll never have a chance of pulling in the new business development opportunities. I highly an individual's personal stream is going to convince anyone that the entire market is a racist one, because of some bad language. As I've said before, if this was a tournament incident I'd agree with you, because tournaments are the mainstream while streaming is niche - for fans of that player. The issues I have with this argument is the same fervor is only directed here - yet people happily soak up IdrA's language, or forgive match fixing and other instances of cheating, the latter of which is far more of an issue. Bad language on an individual stream is massively less important than it, yet people see a case where they can be offended and away we go. The point of both this debate and this discussion is not to police Destiny specifically but to enact the general practice of keeping a tight leash on players like Destiny. If teams or sponsors started to realize that there will be public outcry--they will begin to police themselves before the next set of letters come. Also, when viewers realize that they're opinions (when sent to Sponsors) can actually be heard and responded to immediately--they'll become more and more willing to send mail to sponsors over time. The Orb incident started this trend, and the Destiny incident is putting it into the spotlight. As this trend continues, teams and Sponsors will no longer wait for a public outcry to happen. Suddenly Idra starts being more precise in his insults, suddenly Sheth's image or Stephano's image becomes the main goal for a "player image." We'll slowly get less and less bigoted payed players as the teams and sponsors start being more strict as to the behaviors of its players as a whole and not just individually. Suddenly we don't need to send letters to anyone for Idra calling someone a fag--because before he even calls someone a fag the team already asked him before the incident to stop calling his opponents fag in public. Idra will still call that guy a loser, an unfair cheeser, a fuckhead, an asswipe, etc... Because being offensive is not what is being policed yet.. Added a very important distinction. On a more personal note: If you really believe that it's worse to be called 'nigger' than to be called 'fuckhead', 'asswipe' and similar insults, then I'm not sure how you can call someone a bigot without being a giant hypocrite. Calling someone a nigger is calling him less than human--because he's black. Calling someone a fuckhead has no direct relation to race, creed or sex. It is just an insult. No one was attempting to ban insults, simply racist language. Because we shouldn't find words that label race to be synonymous with insults. If I wanted to insult you, to call you a cheater, to call you unfair and not worthy of victory--I should tell you that instead of calling you asian (with the assumption that by calling you asian that I'm obviously calling you a cheater who is unworthy of victory) There's a big difference between losing to someone and, while raging, typing out "fuck you you fucking cheesy cheater" and saying "gook" No one had a problem with strong language and raging--people had a problem with racist language. If you use english words, you're speaking english. If you use french words, you're speaking french. If you use bigoted words, you're speaking bigot. All three modes of speech can be used to be offensive and insulting. However, being insulting is not what was being complained about. I should have known, not to give you a chance to avoid the topic. Instead of adressing a) how out of the many tools available to you in order to express disagreement, you chose the one that was bound to get a player sacked and b) how the current incident sets a precedent for the sacking of players calling another player 'fuckhead', you focussed on c) my personal estimation, that the insult was the bad thing rather than the exact nature of the insult. Easy dodge I guess... A.) I chose none--I didn't care about Destiny either or so I didn't send a letter to anyone, I simply disagreed with him. B.) Insulting players was not the reason people sent letters--it was very specifically the fact that he was recorded calling someone a gook while being paid both by razer and his stream income. C.) The reason Destiny called someone a gook was because he was upset. Destiny used the word gook because to him, calling someone asian is the same as calling them undeserving of victory. Which is racist language. People did not like it that someone using racist language was being supported by Razer--so they contacted Razer to complain about the product Razer was holding. If you disagree with what Razer decided to do with the facts at hand, talk to Razer about it, not TL. A) You did not send a letter yourself but you obviously condone and defend the practise. Do you think it is right to get someone fired by appealing to the highest authority, before talking to his immediate supervisor in a manner where other measures are possible? B) I know the reason why the letter was sent. But do you think that the consequences would have been different, had he insulted his opponent with explicit language instead of racial slurs? A.) How I think something is handled does not define how others think it is handled. I don't rule others, I only rule myself. But if I had a defective or dangerous or inappropriate product--say I buy christmas lights for christmas and I end up with 200 dildos that I can't hang on the tree because I don't want my family to think I like dildoes, then I call the company to complain. B.) I think if it was just explicit language instead of racial slurs--a lot less people would have sent letter ans so Razer would not have cared.
A) What the hell has this do to with my question? You defend the people that wrote to the sponsors instead of the team and got a player fired. I never said you were responsible for the actions of others, but you apparently approve them. So I asked you directly if you think such a reaction is proportionate. If your waiter forgets a special order on your burger, of course you can complain. But do you immediately try to get the waiter fired? Or for the restaurant owner to lose the franchise?
B) Either you overestimate the number of letters to the sponsor it take, or I underestimate it. Maybe I also overestimate (or you underestimate) the group dynamics such incidents in the hands of the right agitator can have. Looking at the 'clean casting language' discussion, I don't think there is much less of a crowd against the use of 4-letter-words.
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On May 09 2012 00:52 Thrombozyt wrote:Show nested quote +On May 09 2012 00:41 lorkac wrote:On May 09 2012 00:35 Thrombozyt wrote:On May 09 2012 00:14 lorkac wrote:On May 09 2012 00:07 Thrombozyt wrote:On May 08 2012 23:54 lorkac wrote:On May 08 2012 23:40 Thrombozyt wrote:On May 08 2012 23:11 lorkac wrote:On May 08 2012 22:59 Dfgj wrote:On May 08 2012 22:51 lorkac wrote:
[quote]
Technically, what people who are against bigotry is fighting against is how accepted bigotted language is within the esports community as a whole and using Destiny as the stepping stone to enact an policy change in order to force teams to be more proactively careful of supporting players who are bigoted.
The hope is that by enacting these policies, the starcraft culture itself will become less supportive of bigoted language and opinions overall, allowing the scene to become more and more acceptable as a mainstream mode of livelihood and marketing income source for companies that are not already supportive of eSports.
For example, it would be nice if a company like, say, Levis or Bebe became interested in eSports and and attempted to make a mens product line of jackets, pants, shoes, wallets, etc.... But any chance they had of being interested in doing that goes the window when the market option is not only a fringe subculture, but a racist one at that. It's hard enough to get companies to take the fact that SC2 is a videogame seriously--if we also expect them to be okay with its player base calling people gooks and niggers then we'll never have a chance of pulling in the new business development opportunities. I highly an individual's personal stream is going to convince anyone that the entire market is a racist one, because of some bad language. As I've said before, if this was a tournament incident I'd agree with you, because tournaments are the mainstream while streaming is niche - for fans of that player. The issues I have with this argument is the same fervor is only directed here - yet people happily soak up IdrA's language, or forgive match fixing and other instances of cheating, the latter of which is far more of an issue. Bad language on an individual stream is massively less important than it, yet people see a case where they can be offended and away we go. The point of both this debate and this discussion is not to police Destiny specifically but to enact the general practice of keeping a tight leash on players like Destiny. If teams or sponsors started to realize that there will be public outcry--they will begin to police themselves before the next set of letters come. Also, when viewers realize that they're opinions (when sent to Sponsors) can actually be heard and responded to immediately--they'll become more and more willing to send mail to sponsors over time. The Orb incident started this trend, and the Destiny incident is putting it into the spotlight. As this trend continues, teams and Sponsors will no longer wait for a public outcry to happen. Suddenly Idra starts being more precise in his insults, suddenly Sheth's image or Stephano's image becomes the main goal for a "player image." We'll slowly get less and less bigoted payed players as the teams and sponsors start being more strict as to the behaviors of its players as a whole and not just individually. Suddenly we don't need to send letters to anyone for Idra calling someone a fag--because before he even calls someone a fag the team already asked him before the incident to stop calling his opponents fag in public. Idra will still call that guy a loser, an unfair cheeser, a fuckhead, an asswipe, etc... Because being offensive is not what is being policed yet.. Added a very important distinction. On a more personal note: If you really believe that it's worse to be called 'nigger' than to be called 'fuckhead', 'asswipe' and similar insults, then I'm not sure how you can call someone a bigot without being a giant hypocrite. Calling someone a nigger is calling him less than human--because he's black. Calling someone a fuckhead has no direct relation to race, creed or sex. It is just an insult. No one was attempting to ban insults, simply racist language. Because we shouldn't find words that label race to be synonymous with insults. If I wanted to insult you, to call you a cheater, to call you unfair and not worthy of victory--I should tell you that instead of calling you asian (with the assumption that by calling you asian that I'm obviously calling you a cheater who is unworthy of victory) There's a big difference between losing to someone and, while raging, typing out "fuck you you fucking cheesy cheater" and saying "gook" No one had a problem with strong language and raging--people had a problem with racist language. If you use english words, you're speaking english. If you use french words, you're speaking french. If you use bigoted words, you're speaking bigot. All three modes of speech can be used to be offensive and insulting. However, being insulting is not what was being complained about. I should have known, not to give you a chance to avoid the topic. Instead of adressing a) how out of the many tools available to you in order to express disagreement, you chose the one that was bound to get a player sacked and b) how the current incident sets a precedent for the sacking of players calling another player 'fuckhead', you focussed on c) my personal estimation, that the insult was the bad thing rather than the exact nature of the insult. Easy dodge I guess... A.) I chose none--I didn't care about Destiny either or so I didn't send a letter to anyone, I simply disagreed with him. B.) Insulting players was not the reason people sent letters--it was very specifically the fact that he was recorded calling someone a gook while being paid both by razer and his stream income. C.) The reason Destiny called someone a gook was because he was upset. Destiny used the word gook because to him, calling someone asian is the same as calling them undeserving of victory. Which is racist language. People did not like it that someone using racist language was being supported by Razer--so they contacted Razer to complain about the product Razer was holding. If you disagree with what Razer decided to do with the facts at hand, talk to Razer about it, not TL. A) You did not send a letter yourself but you obviously condone and defend the practise. Do you think it is right to get someone fired by appealing to the highest authority, before talking to his immediate supervisor in a manner where other measures are possible? B) I know the reason why the letter was sent. But do you think that the consequences would have been different, had he insulted his opponent with explicit language instead of racial slurs? A.) How I think something is handled does not define how others think it is handled. I don't rule others, I only rule myself. But if I had a defective or dangerous or inappropriate product--say I buy christmas lights for christmas and I end up with 200 dildos that I can't hang on the tree because I don't want my family to think I like dildoes, then I call the company to complain. B.) I think if it was just explicit language instead of racial slurs--a lot less people would have sent letter ans so Razer would not have cared. A) What the hell has this do to with my question? You defend the people that wrote to the sponsors instead of the team and got a player fired. I never said you were responsible for the actions of others, but you apparently approve them. So I asked you directly if you think such a reaction is proportionate. If your waiter forgets a special order on your burger, of course you can complain. But do you immediately try to get the waiter fired? Or for the restaurant owner to lose the franchise? B) Either you overestimate the number of letters to the sponsor it take, or I underestimate it. Maybe I also overestimate (or you underestimate) the group dynamics such incidents in the hands of the right agitator can have. Looking at the 'clean casting language' discussion, I don't think there is much less of a crowd against the use of 4-letter-words.
Your waiter analogy is a poor example. A better example would be if my waiter forgot my order and I brought it too his attention and he told me to Fuck off, n****. You are basically saying that forgetting an order is just as bad as calling someone a derogatory term.
I personally cannot see Razer or any other gaming company sponsor asking for the release of a player due to foul language. Bad language has been accepted in competition for years while racist language has not. Look at any major sports history and you will find many cases where players were suspended for using racist language against an opponent.
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On May 09 2012 01:03 drgoats wrote:Show nested quote +On May 09 2012 00:52 Thrombozyt wrote:On May 09 2012 00:41 lorkac wrote:On May 09 2012 00:35 Thrombozyt wrote:On May 09 2012 00:14 lorkac wrote:On May 09 2012 00:07 Thrombozyt wrote:On May 08 2012 23:54 lorkac wrote:On May 08 2012 23:40 Thrombozyt wrote:On May 08 2012 23:11 lorkac wrote:On May 08 2012 22:59 Dfgj wrote:
[quote]
I highly an individual's personal stream is going to convince anyone that the entire market is a racist one, because of some bad language. As I've said before, if this was a tournament incident I'd agree with you, because tournaments are the mainstream while streaming is niche - for fans of that player.
The issues I have with this argument is the same fervor is only directed here - yet people happily soak up IdrA's language, or forgive match fixing and other instances of cheating, the latter of which is far more of an issue. Bad language on an individual stream is massively less important than it, yet people see a case where they can be offended and away we go. The point of both this debate and this discussion is not to police Destiny specifically but to enact the general practice of keeping a tight leash on players like Destiny. If teams or sponsors started to realize that there will be public outcry--they will begin to police themselves before the next set of letters come. Also, when viewers realize that they're opinions (when sent to Sponsors) can actually be heard and responded to immediately--they'll become more and more willing to send mail to sponsors over time. The Orb incident started this trend, and the Destiny incident is putting it into the spotlight. As this trend continues, teams and Sponsors will no longer wait for a public outcry to happen. Suddenly Idra starts being more precise in his insults, suddenly Sheth's image or Stephano's image becomes the main goal for a "player image." We'll slowly get less and less bigoted payed players as the teams and sponsors start being more strict as to the behaviors of its players as a whole and not just individually. Suddenly we don't need to send letters to anyone for Idra calling someone a fag--because before he even calls someone a fag the team already asked him before the incident to stop calling his opponents fag in public. Idra will still call that guy a loser, an unfair cheeser, a fuckhead, an asswipe, etc... Because being offensive is not what is being policed yet.. Added a very important distinction. On a more personal note: If you really believe that it's worse to be called 'nigger' than to be called 'fuckhead', 'asswipe' and similar insults, then I'm not sure how you can call someone a bigot without being a giant hypocrite. Calling someone a nigger is calling him less than human--because he's black. Calling someone a fuckhead has no direct relation to race, creed or sex. It is just an insult. No one was attempting to ban insults, simply racist language. Because we shouldn't find words that label race to be synonymous with insults. If I wanted to insult you, to call you a cheater, to call you unfair and not worthy of victory--I should tell you that instead of calling you asian (with the assumption that by calling you asian that I'm obviously calling you a cheater who is unworthy of victory) There's a big difference between losing to someone and, while raging, typing out "fuck you you fucking cheesy cheater" and saying "gook" No one had a problem with strong language and raging--people had a problem with racist language. If you use english words, you're speaking english. If you use french words, you're speaking french. If you use bigoted words, you're speaking bigot. All three modes of speech can be used to be offensive and insulting. However, being insulting is not what was being complained about. I should have known, not to give you a chance to avoid the topic. Instead of adressing a) how out of the many tools available to you in order to express disagreement, you chose the one that was bound to get a player sacked and b) how the current incident sets a precedent for the sacking of players calling another player 'fuckhead', you focussed on c) my personal estimation, that the insult was the bad thing rather than the exact nature of the insult. Easy dodge I guess... A.) I chose none--I didn't care about Destiny either or so I didn't send a letter to anyone, I simply disagreed with him. B.) Insulting players was not the reason people sent letters--it was very specifically the fact that he was recorded calling someone a gook while being paid both by razer and his stream income. C.) The reason Destiny called someone a gook was because he was upset. Destiny used the word gook because to him, calling someone asian is the same as calling them undeserving of victory. Which is racist language. People did not like it that someone using racist language was being supported by Razer--so they contacted Razer to complain about the product Razer was holding. If you disagree with what Razer decided to do with the facts at hand, talk to Razer about it, not TL. A) You did not send a letter yourself but you obviously condone and defend the practise. Do you think it is right to get someone fired by appealing to the highest authority, before talking to his immediate supervisor in a manner where other measures are possible? B) I know the reason why the letter was sent. But do you think that the consequences would have been different, had he insulted his opponent with explicit language instead of racial slurs? A.) How I think something is handled does not define how others think it is handled. I don't rule others, I only rule myself. But if I had a defective or dangerous or inappropriate product--say I buy christmas lights for christmas and I end up with 200 dildos that I can't hang on the tree because I don't want my family to think I like dildoes, then I call the company to complain. B.) I think if it was just explicit language instead of racial slurs--a lot less people would have sent letter ans so Razer would not have cared. A) What the hell has this do to with my question? You defend the people that wrote to the sponsors instead of the team and got a player fired. I never said you were responsible for the actions of others, but you apparently approve them. So I asked you directly if you think such a reaction is proportionate. If your waiter forgets a special order on your burger, of course you can complain. But do you immediately try to get the waiter fired? Or for the restaurant owner to lose the franchise? B) Either you overestimate the number of letters to the sponsor it take, or I underestimate it. Maybe I also overestimate (or you underestimate) the group dynamics such incidents in the hands of the right agitator can have. Looking at the 'clean casting language' discussion, I don't think there is much less of a crowd against the use of 4-letter-words. Your waiter analogy is a poor example. A better example would be if my waiter forgot my order and I brought it too his attention and he told me to Fuck off, n****. You are basically saying that forgetting an order is just as bad as calling someone a derogatory term. I personally cannot see Razer or any other gaming company sponsor asking for the release of a player due to foul language. Bad language has been accepted in competition for years while racist language has not. Look at any major sports history and you will find many cases where players were suspended for using racist language against an opponent.
That's slightly off as well, because implicit in the job of the waiter is catering to people. In your example, he's insulting you for him doing his job wrong (which impacted you in the first place). Destiny isn't serving you.
Need another analogy!
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On May 09 2012 01:11 Dfgj wrote:Show nested quote +On May 09 2012 01:03 drgoats wrote:On May 09 2012 00:52 Thrombozyt wrote:On May 09 2012 00:41 lorkac wrote:On May 09 2012 00:35 Thrombozyt wrote:On May 09 2012 00:14 lorkac wrote:On May 09 2012 00:07 Thrombozyt wrote:On May 08 2012 23:54 lorkac wrote:On May 08 2012 23:40 Thrombozyt wrote:On May 08 2012 23:11 lorkac wrote:
[quote]
The point of both this debate and this discussion is not to police Destiny specifically but to enact the general practice of keeping a tight leash on players like Destiny. If teams or sponsors started to realize that there will be public outcry--they will begin to police themselves before the next set of letters come. Also, when viewers realize that they're opinions (when sent to Sponsors) can actually be heard and responded to immediately--they'll become more and more willing to send mail to sponsors over time.
The Orb incident started this trend, and the Destiny incident is putting it into the spotlight. As this trend continues, teams and Sponsors will no longer wait for a public outcry to happen. Suddenly Idra starts being more precise in his insults, suddenly Sheth's image or Stephano's image becomes the main goal for a "player image." We'll slowly get less and less bigoted payed players as the teams and sponsors start being more strict as to the behaviors of its players as a whole and not just individually.
Suddenly we don't need to send letters to anyone for Idra calling someone a fag--because before he even calls someone a fag the team already asked him before the incident to stop calling his opponents fag in public. Idra will still call that guy a loser, an unfair cheeser, a fuckhead, an asswipe, etc... Because being offensive is not what is being policed yet.. Added a very important distinction. On a more personal note: If you really believe that it's worse to be called 'nigger' than to be called 'fuckhead', 'asswipe' and similar insults, then I'm not sure how you can call someone a bigot without being a giant hypocrite. Calling someone a nigger is calling him less than human--because he's black. Calling someone a fuckhead has no direct relation to race, creed or sex. It is just an insult. No one was attempting to ban insults, simply racist language. Because we shouldn't find words that label race to be synonymous with insults. If I wanted to insult you, to call you a cheater, to call you unfair and not worthy of victory--I should tell you that instead of calling you asian (with the assumption that by calling you asian that I'm obviously calling you a cheater who is unworthy of victory) There's a big difference between losing to someone and, while raging, typing out "fuck you you fucking cheesy cheater" and saying "gook" No one had a problem with strong language and raging--people had a problem with racist language. If you use english words, you're speaking english. If you use french words, you're speaking french. If you use bigoted words, you're speaking bigot. All three modes of speech can be used to be offensive and insulting. However, being insulting is not what was being complained about. I should have known, not to give you a chance to avoid the topic. Instead of adressing a) how out of the many tools available to you in order to express disagreement, you chose the one that was bound to get a player sacked and b) how the current incident sets a precedent for the sacking of players calling another player 'fuckhead', you focussed on c) my personal estimation, that the insult was the bad thing rather than the exact nature of the insult. Easy dodge I guess... A.) I chose none--I didn't care about Destiny either or so I didn't send a letter to anyone, I simply disagreed with him. B.) Insulting players was not the reason people sent letters--it was very specifically the fact that he was recorded calling someone a gook while being paid both by razer and his stream income. C.) The reason Destiny called someone a gook was because he was upset. Destiny used the word gook because to him, calling someone asian is the same as calling them undeserving of victory. Which is racist language. People did not like it that someone using racist language was being supported by Razer--so they contacted Razer to complain about the product Razer was holding. If you disagree with what Razer decided to do with the facts at hand, talk to Razer about it, not TL. A) You did not send a letter yourself but you obviously condone and defend the practise. Do you think it is right to get someone fired by appealing to the highest authority, before talking to his immediate supervisor in a manner where other measures are possible? B) I know the reason why the letter was sent. But do you think that the consequences would have been different, had he insulted his opponent with explicit language instead of racial slurs? A.) How I think something is handled does not define how others think it is handled. I don't rule others, I only rule myself. But if I had a defective or dangerous or inappropriate product--say I buy christmas lights for christmas and I end up with 200 dildos that I can't hang on the tree because I don't want my family to think I like dildoes, then I call the company to complain. B.) I think if it was just explicit language instead of racial slurs--a lot less people would have sent letter ans so Razer would not have cared. A) What the hell has this do to with my question? You defend the people that wrote to the sponsors instead of the team and got a player fired. I never said you were responsible for the actions of others, but you apparently approve them. So I asked you directly if you think such a reaction is proportionate. If your waiter forgets a special order on your burger, of course you can complain. But do you immediately try to get the waiter fired? Or for the restaurant owner to lose the franchise? B) Either you overestimate the number of letters to the sponsor it take, or I underestimate it. Maybe I also overestimate (or you underestimate) the group dynamics such incidents in the hands of the right agitator can have. Looking at the 'clean casting language' discussion, I don't think there is much less of a crowd against the use of 4-letter-words. Your waiter analogy is a poor example. A better example would be if my waiter forgot my order and I brought it too his attention and he told me to Fuck off, n****. You are basically saying that forgetting an order is just as bad as calling someone a derogatory term. I personally cannot see Razer or any other gaming company sponsor asking for the release of a player due to foul language. Bad language has been accepted in competition for years while racist language has not. Look at any major sports history and you will find many cases where players were suspended for using racist language against an opponent. That's slightly off as well, because implicit in the job of the waiter is catering to people. In your example, he's insulting you for him doing his job wrong (which impacted you in the first place). Destiny isn't serving you. Need another analogy!
Fair enough. I was just trying to point out that a waiter forgetting something cannot be compared to the language that was used on his stream towards his opponent.
However, you can use my sports analogy. Like I stated, there are plenty of examples of athletes being suspended for racial language.
ex: http://www.miamiherald.com/2012/01/06/2574994/florida-panthers-krys-barch-suspended.html
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Thumbs up for QuanticCinergy, he seems like a decent guy with a good overall view.
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On May 09 2012 01:17 drgoats wrote:Show nested quote +On May 09 2012 01:11 Dfgj wrote:On May 09 2012 01:03 drgoats wrote:On May 09 2012 00:52 Thrombozyt wrote:On May 09 2012 00:41 lorkac wrote:On May 09 2012 00:35 Thrombozyt wrote:On May 09 2012 00:14 lorkac wrote:On May 09 2012 00:07 Thrombozyt wrote:On May 08 2012 23:54 lorkac wrote:On May 08 2012 23:40 Thrombozyt wrote:
[quote]
Added a very important distinction.
On a more personal note:
If you really believe that it's worse to be called 'nigger' than to be called 'fuckhead', 'asswipe' and similar insults, then I'm not sure how you can call someone a bigot without being a giant hypocrite. Calling someone a nigger is calling him less than human--because he's black. Calling someone a fuckhead has no direct relation to race, creed or sex. It is just an insult. No one was attempting to ban insults, simply racist language. Because we shouldn't find words that label race to be synonymous with insults. If I wanted to insult you, to call you a cheater, to call you unfair and not worthy of victory--I should tell you that instead of calling you asian (with the assumption that by calling you asian that I'm obviously calling you a cheater who is unworthy of victory) There's a big difference between losing to someone and, while raging, typing out "fuck you you fucking cheesy cheater" and saying "gook" No one had a problem with strong language and raging--people had a problem with racist language. If you use english words, you're speaking english. If you use french words, you're speaking french. If you use bigoted words, you're speaking bigot. All three modes of speech can be used to be offensive and insulting. However, being insulting is not what was being complained about. I should have known, not to give you a chance to avoid the topic. Instead of adressing a) how out of the many tools available to you in order to express disagreement, you chose the one that was bound to get a player sacked and b) how the current incident sets a precedent for the sacking of players calling another player 'fuckhead', you focussed on c) my personal estimation, that the insult was the bad thing rather than the exact nature of the insult. Easy dodge I guess... A.) I chose none--I didn't care about Destiny either or so I didn't send a letter to anyone, I simply disagreed with him. B.) Insulting players was not the reason people sent letters--it was very specifically the fact that he was recorded calling someone a gook while being paid both by razer and his stream income. C.) The reason Destiny called someone a gook was because he was upset. Destiny used the word gook because to him, calling someone asian is the same as calling them undeserving of victory. Which is racist language. People did not like it that someone using racist language was being supported by Razer--so they contacted Razer to complain about the product Razer was holding. If you disagree with what Razer decided to do with the facts at hand, talk to Razer about it, not TL. A) You did not send a letter yourself but you obviously condone and defend the practise. Do you think it is right to get someone fired by appealing to the highest authority, before talking to his immediate supervisor in a manner where other measures are possible? B) I know the reason why the letter was sent. But do you think that the consequences would have been different, had he insulted his opponent with explicit language instead of racial slurs? A.) How I think something is handled does not define how others think it is handled. I don't rule others, I only rule myself. But if I had a defective or dangerous or inappropriate product--say I buy christmas lights for christmas and I end up with 200 dildos that I can't hang on the tree because I don't want my family to think I like dildoes, then I call the company to complain. B.) I think if it was just explicit language instead of racial slurs--a lot less people would have sent letter ans so Razer would not have cared. A) What the hell has this do to with my question? You defend the people that wrote to the sponsors instead of the team and got a player fired. I never said you were responsible for the actions of others, but you apparently approve them. So I asked you directly if you think such a reaction is proportionate. If your waiter forgets a special order on your burger, of course you can complain. But do you immediately try to get the waiter fired? Or for the restaurant owner to lose the franchise? B) Either you overestimate the number of letters to the sponsor it take, or I underestimate it. Maybe I also overestimate (or you underestimate) the group dynamics such incidents in the hands of the right agitator can have. Looking at the 'clean casting language' discussion, I don't think there is much less of a crowd against the use of 4-letter-words. Your waiter analogy is a poor example. A better example would be if my waiter forgot my order and I brought it too his attention and he told me to Fuck off, n****. You are basically saying that forgetting an order is just as bad as calling someone a derogatory term. I personally cannot see Razer or any other gaming company sponsor asking for the release of a player due to foul language. Bad language has been accepted in competition for years while racist language has not. Look at any major sports history and you will find many cases where players were suspended for using racist language against an opponent. That's slightly off as well, because implicit in the job of the waiter is catering to people. In your example, he's insulting you for him doing his job wrong (which impacted you in the first place). Destiny isn't serving you. Need another analogy! Fair enough. I was just trying to point out that a waiter forgetting something cannot be compared to the language that was used on his stream towards his opponent. However, you can use my sports analogy. Like I stated, there are plenty of examples of athletes being suspended for racial language. ex: http://www.miamiherald.com/2012/01/06/2574994/florida-panthers-krys-barch-suspended.html
Lets fix the analogy then.
You overhear your waiter calling the cook a 'gook'. You're logical response is to get the waiter fired instead of a stern talking to while giving no tip?
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On May 09 2012 01:20 Thrombozyt wrote:Show nested quote +On May 09 2012 01:17 drgoats wrote:On May 09 2012 01:11 Dfgj wrote:On May 09 2012 01:03 drgoats wrote:On May 09 2012 00:52 Thrombozyt wrote:On May 09 2012 00:41 lorkac wrote:On May 09 2012 00:35 Thrombozyt wrote:On May 09 2012 00:14 lorkac wrote:On May 09 2012 00:07 Thrombozyt wrote:On May 08 2012 23:54 lorkac wrote:
[quote]
Calling someone a nigger is calling him less than human--because he's black.
Calling someone a fuckhead has no direct relation to race, creed or sex. It is just an insult.
No one was attempting to ban insults, simply racist language. Because we shouldn't find words that label race to be synonymous with insults. If I wanted to insult you, to call you a cheater, to call you unfair and not worthy of victory--I should tell you that instead of calling you asian (with the assumption that by calling you asian that I'm obviously calling you a cheater who is unworthy of victory)
There's a big difference between losing to someone and, while raging, typing out "fuck you you fucking cheesy cheater" and saying "gook"
No one had a problem with strong language and raging--people had a problem with racist language.
If you use english words, you're speaking english.
If you use french words, you're speaking french.
If you use bigoted words, you're speaking bigot.
All three modes of speech can be used to be offensive and insulting. However, being insulting is not what was being complained about. I should have known, not to give you a chance to avoid the topic. Instead of adressing a) how out of the many tools available to you in order to express disagreement, you chose the one that was bound to get a player sacked and b) how the current incident sets a precedent for the sacking of players calling another player 'fuckhead', you focussed on c) my personal estimation, that the insult was the bad thing rather than the exact nature of the insult. Easy dodge I guess... A.) I chose none--I didn't care about Destiny either or so I didn't send a letter to anyone, I simply disagreed with him. B.) Insulting players was not the reason people sent letters--it was very specifically the fact that he was recorded calling someone a gook while being paid both by razer and his stream income. C.) The reason Destiny called someone a gook was because he was upset. Destiny used the word gook because to him, calling someone asian is the same as calling them undeserving of victory. Which is racist language. People did not like it that someone using racist language was being supported by Razer--so they contacted Razer to complain about the product Razer was holding. If you disagree with what Razer decided to do with the facts at hand, talk to Razer about it, not TL. A) You did not send a letter yourself but you obviously condone and defend the practise. Do you think it is right to get someone fired by appealing to the highest authority, before talking to his immediate supervisor in a manner where other measures are possible? B) I know the reason why the letter was sent. But do you think that the consequences would have been different, had he insulted his opponent with explicit language instead of racial slurs? A.) How I think something is handled does not define how others think it is handled. I don't rule others, I only rule myself. But if I had a defective or dangerous or inappropriate product--say I buy christmas lights for christmas and I end up with 200 dildos that I can't hang on the tree because I don't want my family to think I like dildoes, then I call the company to complain. B.) I think if it was just explicit language instead of racial slurs--a lot less people would have sent letter ans so Razer would not have cared. A) What the hell has this do to with my question? You defend the people that wrote to the sponsors instead of the team and got a player fired. I never said you were responsible for the actions of others, but you apparently approve them. So I asked you directly if you think such a reaction is proportionate. If your waiter forgets a special order on your burger, of course you can complain. But do you immediately try to get the waiter fired? Or for the restaurant owner to lose the franchise? B) Either you overestimate the number of letters to the sponsor it take, or I underestimate it. Maybe I also overestimate (or you underestimate) the group dynamics such incidents in the hands of the right agitator can have. Looking at the 'clean casting language' discussion, I don't think there is much less of a crowd against the use of 4-letter-words. Your waiter analogy is a poor example. A better example would be if my waiter forgot my order and I brought it too his attention and he told me to Fuck off, n****. You are basically saying that forgetting an order is just as bad as calling someone a derogatory term. I personally cannot see Razer or any other gaming company sponsor asking for the release of a player due to foul language. Bad language has been accepted in competition for years while racist language has not. Look at any major sports history and you will find many cases where players were suspended for using racist language against an opponent. That's slightly off as well, because implicit in the job of the waiter is catering to people. In your example, he's insulting you for him doing his job wrong (which impacted you in the first place). Destiny isn't serving you. Need another analogy! Fair enough. I was just trying to point out that a waiter forgetting something cannot be compared to the language that was used on his stream towards his opponent. However, you can use my sports analogy. Like I stated, there are plenty of examples of athletes being suspended for racial language. ex: http://www.miamiherald.com/2012/01/06/2574994/florida-panthers-krys-barch-suspended.html Lets fix the analogy then. You overhear your waiter calling the cook a 'gook'. You're logical response is to get the waiter fired instead of a stern talking to while giving no tip?
I am not too sure if that works either because the cook and the waiter are not in direct competition with each other.
Using your new scenario I am not too sure how I will handle it because I do not have enough information. I personally am not the type of person who will go around getting people fired but the situation might be so egregious that it might call for it. There are plenty of people who will be deeply offended and they have a right to their opinions on that matter. If they decided to go to management and asked for the firing of the employee I would see no problem in that. If a customer has a problem with there service they will go to a manager for some very small issues, like forgetting to bring a refill, so I cannot see a problem with a customer going to a manager when they overhear racial slurs.
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Destiny is the product, not the waiter...
If you ate at a restaurant and got sick afterwards, you complain to the restaurant, not the steak.
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did you know that people get fired on the spot in a professional sports world? for using racial slurs?
I bet some of you didnt know
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On May 09 2012 01:50 lorkac wrote:
Destiny is the product, not the waiter...
If you ate at a restaurant and got sick afterwards, you complain to the restaurant, not the steak.
The entertainment is the product. Destiny delivers.
On May 09 2012 01:51 Govou wrote:
did you know that people get fired on the spot in a professional sports world? for using racial slurs?
I bet some of you didnt know
I indeed didn't know that each and every professional athlete gets fired on the spot when he uses a racial slur. Though I honestly doubt that. They get fired if drama ensues. That's the topic here. Should we incite maximum drama?
I do NOT argue the question: Are racial slurs wrong?
Also: Because something happened before, doesn't make it right if it happens later.
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On May 09 2012 01:50 lorkac wrote:
Destiny is the product, not the waiter...
If you ate at a restaurant and got sick afterwards, you complain to the restaurant, not the steak.
Yes! You're finally getting closer to understanding my point.
If you got sick, you would simply stop going to the restaurant, and if it really bothered you or if you thought it's something they need to be informed of, you would file a complaint with them.
Here's what you shouldn't do: write a detailed blog of your bad experience and share it with the internet, encourage a mass boycott of the restaurant, and escalate the level of anger in the discussion until you have created an angry mob that is threatening the restaurant and everyone the restaurant does business with, with a massive negative publicity campaign unless they give in to whatever your demands are.
That would be an inappropriate overreaction to the situation. Would you agree?
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On May 09 2012 01:54 Thrombozyt wrote:Show nested quote +On May 09 2012 01:50 lorkac wrote:
Destiny is the product, not the waiter...
If you ate at a restaurant and got sick afterwards, you complain to the restaurant, not the steak. The entertainment is the product. Destiny delivers. Show nested quote +On May 09 2012 01:51 Govou wrote:
did you know that people get fired on the spot in a professional sports world? for using racial slurs?
I bet some of you didnt know I indeed didn't know that each and every professional athlete gets fired on the spot when he uses a racial slur. Though I honestly doubt that. They get fired if drama ensues. That's the topic here. Should we incite maximum drama? I do NOT argue the question: Are racial slurs wrong? Also: Because something happened before, doesn't make it right if it happens later.
obviously I did not say every athletes get fired on the spot did I?
you think some people getting fired on the spot is wrong? I know alot of people who are completely fine by being called loser, dick mfucker etc but intensely get upset with use of racial slurs.
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On May 09 2012 02:37 Chocobo wrote:Show nested quote +On May 09 2012 01:50 lorkac wrote:
Destiny is the product, not the waiter...
If you ate at a restaurant and got sick afterwards, you complain to the restaurant, not the steak. Yes! You're finally getting closer to understanding my point. If you got sick, you would simply stop going to the restaurant, and if it really bothered you or if you thought it's something they need to be informed of, you would file a complaint with them. Here's what you shouldn't do: write a detailed blog of your bad experience and share it with the internet, encourage a mass boycott of the restaurant, and escalate the level of anger in the discussion until you have created an angry mob that is threatening the restaurant and everyone the restaurant does business with, with a massive negative publicity campaign unless they give in to whatever your demands are. That would be an inappropriate overreaction to the situation. Would you agree?
lol use of racial slur =/= bad experience at restaurant
get a grip.
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there will always be people offended by hate speech (as is their right), and there will always be people that use it (as is their right), so what's the big deal here? why are people so surprised when these two groups inevitably clash? if you are disgusted by someone using hate speech, speak up. most of the posts in all these threads are discussing the rights/wrongs of using hate speech, and the degree to which people take a stand against it. i don't get why people get upset when a player/streamer they like uses hate speech, then has to deal with the inevitable consequences. they can't have their cake and eat it too. no one is going to convince anyone that hate speech is ok, or isn't.
if you want to use it, fine, just be prepared to deal with the consequences. if people contact your sponsors, and they drop you, and in some (most likely intangible) way it "hurts eSports", that's your fault, not theirs. the "witch hunts" (a misnomer imo) will cease when people stop creating these controversies by trying to duck the consequences. you can call people niggers and gooks all you want, just not while you're representing a legitimate business. i've never understood people who think you can say whatever you want with no consequences. if you can't control your emotions and need to vent at someone in a video game, and decide to use racist/biggoted words, then that's on you and no one else. the sponsors hearing about it is a byproduct of your action, and no one else's. the person proliferating the hateful language is 100% culpable. when popular players quit using outrageous langauge to try to hurt someone (most players are quite professional in this sense), these threads will dissapear.
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On May 09 2012 02:37 Chocobo wrote:Show nested quote +On May 09 2012 01:50 lorkac wrote:
Destiny is the product, not the waiter...
If you ate at a restaurant and got sick afterwards, you complain to the restaurant, not the steak. Yes! You're finally getting closer to understanding my point. If you got sick, you would simply stop going to the restaurant, and if it really bothered you or if you thought it's something they need to be informed of, you would file a complaint with them. Here's what you shouldn't do: write a detailed blog of your bad experience and share it with the internet, encourage a mass boycott of the restaurant, and escalate the level of anger in the discussion until you have created an angry mob that is threatening the restaurant and everyone the restaurant does business with, with a massive negative publicity campaign unless they give in to whatever your demands are. That would be an inappropriate overreaction to the situation. Would you agree?
Actually no. Review sites like Yelp has that as an entire business model.
In fact, it should be your moral imperitive to inform the business that one of their stores is needs to be checked out for the safety of others.
But that's going to deeply into a seperate issue (food safety concerns and the communal responsibilities of a citizen in a community to help others in his community)
Let's go back to you saying that if it pissed you off that you go file a complaint. That's what people did. People filed a complaint, razed decided to take action.
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On May 09 2012 01:11 Dfgj wrote:Show nested quote +On May 09 2012 01:03 drgoats wrote:On May 09 2012 00:52 Thrombozyt wrote:On May 09 2012 00:41 lorkac wrote:On May 09 2012 00:35 Thrombozyt wrote:On May 09 2012 00:14 lorkac wrote:On May 09 2012 00:07 Thrombozyt wrote:On May 08 2012 23:54 lorkac wrote:On May 08 2012 23:40 Thrombozyt wrote:On May 08 2012 23:11 lorkac wrote:
[quote]
The point of both this debate and this discussion is not to police Destiny specifically but to enact the general practice of keeping a tight leash on players like Destiny. If teams or sponsors started to realize that there will be public outcry--they will begin to police themselves before the next set of letters come. Also, when viewers realize that they're opinions (when sent to Sponsors) can actually be heard and responded to immediately--they'll become more and more willing to send mail to sponsors over time.
The Orb incident started this trend, and the Destiny incident is putting it into the spotlight. As this trend continues, teams and Sponsors will no longer wait for a public outcry to happen. Suddenly Idra starts being more precise in his insults, suddenly Sheth's image or Stephano's image becomes the main goal for a "player image." We'll slowly get less and less bigoted payed players as the teams and sponsors start being more strict as to the behaviors of its players as a whole and not just individually.
Suddenly we don't need to send letters to anyone for Idra calling someone a fag--because before he even calls someone a fag the team already asked him before the incident to stop calling his opponents fag in public. Idra will still call that guy a loser, an unfair cheeser, a fuckhead, an asswipe, etc... Because being offensive is not what is being policed yet.. Added a very important distinction. On a more personal note: If you really believe that it's worse to be called 'nigger' than to be called 'fuckhead', 'asswipe' and similar insults, then I'm not sure how you can call someone a bigot without being a giant hypocrite. Calling someone a nigger is calling him less than human--because he's black. Calling someone a fuckhead has no direct relation to race, creed or sex. It is just an insult. No one was attempting to ban insults, simply racist language. Because we shouldn't find words that label race to be synonymous with insults. If I wanted to insult you, to call you a cheater, to call you unfair and not worthy of victory--I should tell you that instead of calling you asian (with the assumption that by calling you asian that I'm obviously calling you a cheater who is unworthy of victory) There's a big difference between losing to someone and, while raging, typing out "fuck you you fucking cheesy cheater" and saying "gook" No one had a problem with strong language and raging--people had a problem with racist language. If you use english words, you're speaking english. If you use french words, you're speaking french. If you use bigoted words, you're speaking bigot. All three modes of speech can be used to be offensive and insulting. However, being insulting is not what was being complained about. I should have known, not to give you a chance to avoid the topic. Instead of adressing a) how out of the many tools available to you in order to express disagreement, you chose the one that was bound to get a player sacked and b) how the current incident sets a precedent for the sacking of players calling another player 'fuckhead', you focussed on c) my personal estimation, that the insult was the bad thing rather than the exact nature of the insult. Easy dodge I guess... A.) I chose none--I didn't care about Destiny either or so I didn't send a letter to anyone, I simply disagreed with him. B.) Insulting players was not the reason people sent letters--it was very specifically the fact that he was recorded calling someone a gook while being paid both by razer and his stream income. C.) The reason Destiny called someone a gook was because he was upset. Destiny used the word gook because to him, calling someone asian is the same as calling them undeserving of victory. Which is racist language. People did not like it that someone using racist language was being supported by Razer--so they contacted Razer to complain about the product Razer was holding. If you disagree with what Razer decided to do with the facts at hand, talk to Razer about it, not TL. A) You did not send a letter yourself but you obviously condone and defend the practise. Do you think it is right to get someone fired by appealing to the highest authority, before talking to his immediate supervisor in a manner where other measures are possible? B) I know the reason why the letter was sent. But do you think that the consequences would have been different, had he insulted his opponent with explicit language instead of racial slurs? A.) How I think something is handled does not define how others think it is handled. I don't rule others, I only rule myself. But if I had a defective or dangerous or inappropriate product--say I buy christmas lights for christmas and I end up with 200 dildos that I can't hang on the tree because I don't want my family to think I like dildoes, then I call the company to complain. B.) I think if it was just explicit language instead of racial slurs--a lot less people would have sent letter ans so Razer would not have cared. A) What the hell has this do to with my question? You defend the people that wrote to the sponsors instead of the team and got a player fired. I never said you were responsible for the actions of others, but you apparently approve them. So I asked you directly if you think such a reaction is proportionate. If your waiter forgets a special order on your burger, of course you can complain. But do you immediately try to get the waiter fired? Or for the restaurant owner to lose the franchise? B) Either you overestimate the number of letters to the sponsor it take, or I underestimate it. Maybe I also overestimate (or you underestimate) the group dynamics such incidents in the hands of the right agitator can have. Looking at the 'clean casting language' discussion, I don't think there is much less of a crowd against the use of 4-letter-words. Your waiter analogy is a poor example. A better example would be if my waiter forgot my order and I brought it too his attention and he told me to Fuck off, n****. You are basically saying that forgetting an order is just as bad as calling someone a derogatory term. I personally cannot see Razer or any other gaming company sponsor asking for the release of a player due to foul language. Bad language has been accepted in competition for years while racist language has not. Look at any major sports history and you will find many cases where players were suspended for using racist language against an opponent. That's slightly off as well, because implicit in the job of the waiter is catering to people. In your example, he's insulting you for him doing his job wrong (which impacted you in the first place). Destiny isn't serving you. Need another analogy!
Actually Destiny is. Technically he's streaming publicly to provide a service to fans (watch him play), and he gets some value (ad revenue from his fans).
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On May 09 2012 01:54 Thrombozyt wrote:Show nested quote +On May 09 2012 01:50 lorkac wrote:
Destiny is the product, not the waiter...
If you ate at a restaurant and got sick afterwards, you complain to the restaurant, not the steak. The entertainment is the product. Destiny delivers. Show nested quote +On May 09 2012 01:51 Govou wrote:
did you know that people get fired on the spot in a professional sports world? for using racial slurs?
I bet some of you didnt know I indeed didn't know that each and every professional athlete gets fired on the spot when he uses a racial slur. Though I honestly doubt that. They get fired if drama ensues. That's the topic here. Should we incite maximum drama? I do NOT argue the question: Are racial slurs wrong? Also: Because something happened before, doesn't make it right if it happens later.
Punishment is decided by the team/sponsors. If you dislike thee decision, tell Razer. Th best letter writers can do is file a complaint--it is the company that does the letting go.
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On May 09 2012 03:02 FairForever wrote:Show nested quote +On May 09 2012 01:11 Dfgj wrote:On May 09 2012 01:03 drgoats wrote:On May 09 2012 00:52 Thrombozyt wrote:On May 09 2012 00:41 lorkac wrote:On May 09 2012 00:35 Thrombozyt wrote:On May 09 2012 00:14 lorkac wrote:On May 09 2012 00:07 Thrombozyt wrote:On May 08 2012 23:54 lorkac wrote:On May 08 2012 23:40 Thrombozyt wrote:
[quote]
Added a very important distinction.
On a more personal note:
If you really believe that it's worse to be called 'nigger' than to be called 'fuckhead', 'asswipe' and similar insults, then I'm not sure how you can call someone a bigot without being a giant hypocrite. Calling someone a nigger is calling him less than human--because he's black. Calling someone a fuckhead has no direct relation to race, creed or sex. It is just an insult. No one was attempting to ban insults, simply racist language. Because we shouldn't find words that label race to be synonymous with insults. If I wanted to insult you, to call you a cheater, to call you unfair and not worthy of victory--I should tell you that instead of calling you asian (with the assumption that by calling you asian that I'm obviously calling you a cheater who is unworthy of victory) There's a big difference between losing to someone and, while raging, typing out "fuck you you fucking cheesy cheater" and saying "gook" No one had a problem with strong language and raging--people had a problem with racist language. If you use english words, you're speaking english. If you use french words, you're speaking french. If you use bigoted words, you're speaking bigot. All three modes of speech can be used to be offensive and insulting. However, being insulting is not what was being complained about. I should have known, not to give you a chance to avoid the topic. Instead of adressing a) how out of the many tools available to you in order to express disagreement, you chose the one that was bound to get a player sacked and b) how the current incident sets a precedent for the sacking of players calling another player 'fuckhead', you focussed on c) my personal estimation, that the insult was the bad thing rather than the exact nature of the insult. Easy dodge I guess... A.) I chose none--I didn't care about Destiny either or so I didn't send a letter to anyone, I simply disagreed with him. B.) Insulting players was not the reason people sent letters--it was very specifically the fact that he was recorded calling someone a gook while being paid both by razer and his stream income. C.) The reason Destiny called someone a gook was because he was upset. Destiny used the word gook because to him, calling someone asian is the same as calling them undeserving of victory. Which is racist language. People did not like it that someone using racist language was being supported by Razer--so they contacted Razer to complain about the product Razer was holding. If you disagree with what Razer decided to do with the facts at hand, talk to Razer about it, not TL. A) You did not send a letter yourself but you obviously condone and defend the practise. Do you think it is right to get someone fired by appealing to the highest authority, before talking to his immediate supervisor in a manner where other measures are possible? B) I know the reason why the letter was sent. But do you think that the consequences would have been different, had he insulted his opponent with explicit language instead of racial slurs? A.) How I think something is handled does not define how others think it is handled. I don't rule others, I only rule myself. But if I had a defective or dangerous or inappropriate product--say I buy christmas lights for christmas and I end up with 200 dildos that I can't hang on the tree because I don't want my family to think I like dildoes, then I call the company to complain. B.) I think if it was just explicit language instead of racial slurs--a lot less people would have sent letter ans so Razer would not have cared. A) What the hell has this do to with my question? You defend the people that wrote to the sponsors instead of the team and got a player fired. I never said you were responsible for the actions of others, but you apparently approve them. So I asked you directly if you think such a reaction is proportionate. If your waiter forgets a special order on your burger, of course you can complain. But do you immediately try to get the waiter fired? Or for the restaurant owner to lose the franchise? B) Either you overestimate the number of letters to the sponsor it take, or I underestimate it. Maybe I also overestimate (or you underestimate) the group dynamics such incidents in the hands of the right agitator can have. Looking at the 'clean casting language' discussion, I don't think there is much less of a crowd against the use of 4-letter-words. Your waiter analogy is a poor example. A better example would be if my waiter forgot my order and I brought it too his attention and he told me to Fuck off, n****. You are basically saying that forgetting an order is just as bad as calling someone a derogatory term. I personally cannot see Razer or any other gaming company sponsor asking for the release of a player due to foul language. Bad language has been accepted in competition for years while racist language has not. Look at any major sports history and you will find many cases where players were suspended for using racist language against an opponent. That's slightly off as well, because implicit in the job of the waiter is catering to people. In your example, he's insulting you for him doing his job wrong (which impacted you in the first place). Destiny isn't serving you. Need another analogy! Actually Destiny is. Technically he's streaming publicly to provide a service to fans (watch him play), and he gets some value (ad revenue from his fans).
Destiny is the product, not his "gameplay" he even has a brand name--Destiny.
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As far as I'm concerned the problem is everyone on the forums takes themselves and these issues way, way too seriously.
I don't have a stance on Destiny using racial slurs on his stream. I literally do not give a single fuck. That's just me, it's fine if people care about it. But, the problem with this community and how it's affecting ESPORTS in my opinion is not whether or not streamers are acting professional enough or how this or that is going to look to sponsors, it's the prissy fucking know it all drama queens that bicker and argue every tiny detail to death. Whole pages of threads are taken up by petty arguments that quickly devolve until they're just about semantics or stupid over extended metaphors and people stop arguing about the issues and are just arguing because they want to be right on a forum. It's just sad.
Issues like professionalism don't get fixed by people jumping up and down every time someone steps out of line and going 'Miss, Miss, that boy said a bad word!'
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EPT
