On May 08 2012 09:39 revel8 wrote: Sad to see racist language still being defended by posters in this thread. They even pretend that those who object to racist language are the bigots. Must be the kkk demographic.
Sad to see that so many people still don't get the point. We're not saying "racist language isn't such a big deal, just man up and ignore it".
We're saying it's not your fucking job to be the internet morality police. It is not your place to demand that people clean up their language. It is not your place to punish those whose actions fall outside of what you consider to be acceptable.
If you emailed Razer to complain, you are no different than Christian groups complaining about the TV show Glee because it promotes acceptance of gay people, or Muslims demanding that newspapers not print a cartoon of Muhammad.
You don't get to demand that your moral code is followed by everyone else, under threat of whatever punishment you are able to come up with. That is a fucked up situation to occur and I will always stand against it. Especially when it will have the side effect of driving sponsors away from E-sports if it keeps happening.
And if you read this post and think that my message is "Chocobo is someone who thinks it's ok to call people niggers and gooks" then you need to get your head examined.
The difference is, the TV show Glee promoting acceptance of gay people isn't doing anything wrong by our social standard; there is nothing wrong with promoting acceptance of homosexual. Therefore, the Christian group complaining about it are in the wrong, because they are complaining about something that there is nothing wrong with it from a logical or social standpoint.
So the religious group would be in the right, if the same situation took place in the year 1950? Or in present-day Afghanistan?
No because it's the logic that is at stake here. Not trying to bring this into a homosexual or racism debate, but you can't really argue logically that homosexuals are inferior human beings or anything, same with having dark skin colour. This same logic can be applied back in 1950 or in Afghanistan. The difference is the society at those places are not applying this same logic, but instead rely more on faith/beliefs. But clearly we're not here to debate using faith are we? We all share the same rational logics here, hence my previous point.
I agree that racism is wrong and that racial slurs are not a good thing. I understand that many people are offended by them. However, I do not agree that the the correct course of action when encountering a racial slur is to form an angry mob and demand the person who used it be fired from their job.
But who are we to decide what the CORRECT course of action is? Where exactly is it stated that one way is better than another? If this were to happen in any other Sports, or entertainment industry or business industry, the same shit storm will ensue and that very person will most likely get fired or at least heavily punished. Why should e-Sport be any different?
Also, context is important. Destiny is not a racist... he has the anger management skills of a 4 year old who throws temper tantrums, and when offended he will lash out with the most hurtful words he can come up with. He actually can censor himself, but chose not to because some of his audience finds the tantrums entertaining... sort of like watching Cartman from South Park.
But people were reacting to his language as if he was a true southern redneck expressing an heartfelt opinion that black people are inferior, and that just wasn't the case.
How your target perceives your message is way more important than what one intended to mean. At least in the case of racial slurs, it's definitely your own fault for making your target perceive you as racist. You might go "sup n*****" to your dark-skinned buddy because you know he won't perceive you as trying to be racist, but you don't say the same thing to a random dark-skinned person you just met.
On May 07 2012 19:56 CluEleSs_UK wrote: I totally agree with OP here. I think it's sad and selfish that the people behind these witch-hunts are taken seriously. We're going to hit a state where every progamer is afraid to interact with the community for fear of offending somebody.
I'm going to cross-post something I wrote in reddit, because I think it's relevant to this topic (in relation to the Destiny topic):
It's odd because this isn't about being politically correct or avoiding offending people, it's about 1 person posting a thread PURELY to get a reaction, and PURELY to try and ruin a career. The orb scandal was the exact same; how many people were genuinely offended by Orb? very few. People knew it happened for a long time, but nobody cared. Suddenly one redditor gets butthurt that he's not famous and goes out of his way to ruin Orb's career, leaving EG in a position where they couldn't viably leave it alone. It's just so fucking sad that people are still jumping on this bandwagon. People need to go and take a long, hard look in the mirror. When I was a child, this was what we (and most likely your parents too) called "telling tales". Regardless of whether another child misbehaved, it was considered bad manners to go whining to an adult. The difference here is, these "tales" are ruining somebody's life. Look at Orb again; this guy was having the best time of his life. A comfortable job, plenty of fun and likely a good wage. He was happy. He wasn't hurting anybody (despite how fucking butthurt you want to act). You fucked it up for him. If you were posting in those threads complaining, if you were emailing the sponsors, YOU fucked it up for him. Think back to the last time you made a mistake (because, believe it or not, nobody's perfect). Could you have lost your job because of things you said about colleagues? Have you ever been on youtube in company hours? Broken the speed limit without getting caught? Made a joke at somebody's expense? used a term like "faggot" or "retard"? Of course you have. How would you fucking like it if somebody reported all these minor issues of yours? You'd feel disgusted. With more and more of these dramas cropping up, we're getting to the stage that nobody in the community is safe. Nobody can afford to be themselves. The community will become false, and your little fucking dreams of "making eSports real by removing all these bad things" will become "making eSports a farce where everybody acts like a plastic doll". I am willing to bet real money that things like these can be found of ANY progamer (I actually recall a few months ago a screenshot of fan favourite [and a favourite of mine through some truly touching favours he did for me] Grubby talking about fucking his opponent's mum, with some other rather choice language from his War3 days. Regardless, it's obvious he's an intelligent, sensible and well-mannered individual), and this needs to stop NOW. RIGHT now, before anybody else's lifestyle becomes compromised for no good reason. I conclude with a phrase my mother taught me as a child, which is fitting as a good proportion of the posters on this subreddit act like children: "Sticks and stones may break my bones, but words will never hurt me."
I... really like this post. 5/5 It's not good that these things that these people highlight are happening, but the biggest deal shouldn't be made out of them.
On May 08 2012 09:39 revel8 wrote: Sad to see racist language still being defended by posters in this thread. They even pretend that those who object to racist language are the bigots. Must be the kkk demographic.
Sad to see that so many people still don't get the point. We're not saying "racist language isn't such a big deal, just man up and ignore it".
We're saying it's not your fucking job to be the internet morality police. It is not your place to demand that people clean up their language. It is not your place to punish those whose actions fall outside of what you consider to be acceptable.
If you emailed Razer to complain, you are no different than Christian groups complaining about the TV show Glee because it promotes acceptance of gay people, or Muslims demanding that newspapers not print a cartoon of Muhammad.
You don't get to demand that your moral code is followed by everyone else, under threat of whatever punishment you are able to come up with. That is a fucked up situation to occur and I will always stand against it. Especially when it will have the side effect of driving sponsors away from E-sports if it keeps happening.
And if you read this post and think that my message is "Chocobo is someone who thinks it's ok to call people niggers and gooks" then you need to get your head examined.
It is laughable that because I am opposed to racism you imply I am bigoted and compare my stance of opposing racism to those who display homophobic behaviour or religious fundamentalism.
Translation: "haha, those silly groups with their strange moral code, trying to control the actions of others... what a bunch of crazies. Luckily I follow the correct and accurate set of morals, and am completely justified in my attempts to control others with it."
So being opposed to racism is now an example of bigotry? Hilarious. You are just embarrassing yourself now in your desperation to defend racist comments.
Like I said, you need to get your head examined. If you are unable to see the difference between supporting the right to use free speech without losing your job and supporting racism, then something isn't working right in there.
My moral code is the code of modern progressive society in which racism is not tolerated but opposed, if your personal moral code is lacking and anachronistic then that is not my problem, it's yours.
There is no God but Allah, and Muhammad is his prophet! Allahu Akbar! Allahu Akbar!
What you cannot seem to stomach is that the sponsors agreed with me that his behaviour was unacceptable. It is Destiny and his ungoverned behaviour that was likely to turn away sponsors from the scene.
I take no issue with the actions of Quantic or Razer. They did what they had to do.
If everyone in the SC2 community agreed with you then the sponsors would all leave because they cannot be associated with racial abuse and those who condone it.
If everyone agreed with me, there would be no outcry and no reason for sponsors to leave. We'd have an uncensored community where players wouldn't be afraid to express unusual or unpopular opinions out of fear of punishment. Sounds just fine to me.
You continue to embarrass yourself. You have no arguments except that you are appear unhappy that racism is now marginalised by society.
You have decided in your mind that I am pro-racism and that everything I say is some invented argument in order to support racism. That is not the case.
You need to wrap your mind around the fact that I am talking about free speech, not racism.
Do you believe that rappers should be banned from using the word "nigger" in their songs, under penalty of losing their jobs? Do you believe that the TV show South Park should be pulled off the air? Do you think movies should not be allowed to have racist characters in them?
I don't. I think all of these things should be allowed, and people who find that material offensive should simply avoid it. And this is exactly the same kind of situation... except in our case, the TL morality police decided to petition against the offensive material instead of simply ignoring it.
This isn't a free speech debate lol. Destiny is not some kind of victim or free speech martyr. He's still free to say whatever he wants on his stream. No one is forcing Destiny to say or not say anything. Destiny was a brand ambassador for Razer by being a part of Quantic. A lot people use Razer products and don't want them supporting players who promote racist and homophobic language so they contacted Razer. Then Razer pulled the strings on Quantic. Shocking. This isn't a witch-hunt but a sequence of entirely predictable cause-and-effect events that have played themselves out in many competitive arenas. Furthermore, Destiny is still free to find a sponsor who will tolerate his language and support him.
I hate that argument. "He's free to say whatever he wants, but he should be prepared to accept the punishment for it". Newsflash... if there's a punishment for unpopular speech, then it isn't exactly free speech. I'm sure some Chinese officials would agree that their citizens are free to talk about the Tiananmen Square Massacre, just as long as they're prepared to accept the jail time that comes afterwards.
Yes, I'm aware that the technical definition of free speech involves the right to speech without fear of punishment from law enforcement. But by going the angry mob route, people are creating their own unwritten laws and enforcing vigilante justice, which is worse than the "crime" of calling someone a nasty name.
To those who support the idea of emailing Razer and getting Destiny fired- what's wrong with the concept of "if you don't like it, don't watch it"?
On May 08 2012 09:39 revel8 wrote: Sad to see racist language still being defended by posters in this thread. They even pretend that those who object to racist language are the bigots. Must be the kkk demographic.
Sad to see that so many people still don't get the point. We're not saying "racist language isn't such a big deal, just man up and ignore it".
We're saying it's not your fucking job to be the internet morality police. It is not your place to demand that people clean up their language. It is not your place to punish those whose actions fall outside of what you consider to be acceptable.
If you emailed Razer to complain, you are no different than Christian groups complaining about the TV show Glee because it promotes acceptance of gay people, or Muslims demanding that newspapers not print a cartoon of Muhammad.
You don't get to demand that your moral code is followed by everyone else, under threat of whatever punishment you are able to come up with. That is a fucked up situation to occur and I will always stand against it. Especially when it will have the side effect of driving sponsors away from E-sports if it keeps happening.
And if you read this post and think that my message is "Chocobo is someone who thinks it's ok to call people niggers and gooks" then you need to get your head examined.
It is laughable that because I am opposed to racism you imply I am bigoted and compare my stance of opposing racism to those who display homophobic behaviour or religious fundamentalism.
Translation: "haha, those silly groups with their strange moral code, trying to control the actions of others... what a bunch of crazies. Luckily I follow the correct and accurate set of morals, and am completely justified in my attempts to control others with it."
So being opposed to racism is now an example of bigotry? Hilarious. You are just embarrassing yourself now in your desperation to defend racist comments.
Like I said, you need to get your head examined. If you are unable to see the difference between supporting the right to use free speech without losing your job and supporting racism, then something isn't working right in there.
My moral code is the code of modern progressive society in which racism is not tolerated but opposed, if your personal moral code is lacking and anachronistic then that is not my problem, it's yours.
There is no God but Allah, and Muhammad is his prophet! Allahu Akbar! Allahu Akbar!
What you cannot seem to stomach is that the sponsors agreed with me that his behaviour was unacceptable. It is Destiny and his ungoverned behaviour that was likely to turn away sponsors from the scene.
I take no issue with the actions of Quantic or Razer. They did what they had to do.
If everyone in the SC2 community agreed with you then the sponsors would all leave because they cannot be associated with racial abuse and those who condone it.
If everyone agreed with me, there would be no outcry and no reason for sponsors to leave. We'd have an uncensored community where players wouldn't be afraid to express unusual or unpopular opinions out of fear of punishment. Sounds just fine to me.
You continue to embarrass yourself. You have no arguments except that you are appear unhappy that racism is now marginalised by society.
You have decided in your mind that I am pro-racism and that everything I say is some invented argument in order to support racism. That is not the case.
We live in a society where racial abuse is not tolerated. People who engage in racist abuse can lose their jobs as a consequence. You can object to that all you want but that is where society is these days. The way to avoid being punished by employers for racist abuse is to not racially abuse someone. It is fairly simple.
Arguments of freedom of speech are all very well on a philosophical level but in practical terms companies will run a mile from a racism scandal. It is hardly a secret that racially abusing someone is grounds for dismissal in most companies and that no company will publicly condone or be seen to condone racism. Destiny is fully aware of this. He has talked about using racial slurs, he knows that it is controversial and taboo for mainstream society. He just chooses to ignore these conventions based on a personal choice. He is aware that such a stance could cost him some opportunities in mainstream society. The choice is his. He is the only one deciding how he behaves. His stance on racial abusing people and it's level of acceptability it is is not one shared by the Quantic sponsors.
You can argue that society should be different in various ways but that does not change how society actually is at this point in time. Ignoring the reality of the situation is not particularly pragmatic and no company would ignore social norms about racism because of PR.
On May 08 2012 12:49 Fubi wrote: But who are we to decide what the CORRECT course of action is?
We are human beings with brains. We can evaluate the options and determine which option is the most appropriate for the situation, and the most fair for all parties involved. The most appropriate option was to stop watching/supporting the things that offend you.
On May 08 2012 12:49 Fubi wrote: But who are we to decide what the CORRECT course of action is?
We are human beings with brains. We can evaluate the options and determine which option is the most appropriate for the situation, and the most fair for all parties involved. The most appropriate option was to stop watching/supporting the people who offend you.
Actually the most appropriate action is for everyone to decide for themselves what option is the most fitting. As human beings with brains, we are all capable of evaluating the options and determining our own responses. Your problem is you object when some people have decided to take an option that you personally disagree with. Are people not entitled to decide on a course of action based upon their own evaluation of the situation?
The sponsors were made aware of Destiny's behaviour. They used their brains, evaluated their options and determined which option was most appropriate for their company based on society values. Your problem is that you object to their choice of action. Are they not entitled to make a decision based on the good of their business?
On May 08 2012 09:39 revel8 wrote: Sad to see racist language still being defended by posters in this thread. They even pretend that those who object to racist language are the bigots. Must be the kkk demographic.
Sad to see that so many people still don't get the point. We're not saying "racist language isn't such a big deal, just man up and ignore it".
We're saying it's not your fucking job to be the internet morality police. It is not your place to demand that people clean up their language. It is not your place to punish those whose actions fall outside of what you consider to be acceptable.
If you emailed Razer to complain, you are no different than Christian groups complaining about the TV show Glee because it promotes acceptance of gay people, or Muslims demanding that newspapers not print a cartoon of Muhammad.
You don't get to demand that your moral code is followed by everyone else, under threat of whatever punishment you are able to come up with. That is a fucked up situation to occur and I will always stand against it. Especially when it will have the side effect of driving sponsors away from E-sports if it keeps happening.
And if you read this post and think that my message is "Chocobo is someone who thinks it's ok to call people niggers and gooks" then you need to get your head examined.
It is laughable that because I am opposed to racism you imply I am bigoted and compare my stance of opposing racism to those who display homophobic behaviour or religious fundamentalism.
Translation: "haha, those silly groups with their strange moral code, trying to control the actions of others... what a bunch of crazies. Luckily I follow the correct and accurate set of morals, and am completely justified in my attempts to control others with it."
So being opposed to racism is now an example of bigotry? Hilarious. You are just embarrassing yourself now in your desperation to defend racist comments.
Like I said, you need to get your head examined. If you are unable to see the difference between supporting the right to use free speech without losing your job and supporting racism, then something isn't working right in there.
My moral code is the code of modern progressive society in which racism is not tolerated but opposed, if your personal moral code is lacking and anachronistic then that is not my problem, it's yours.
There is no God but Allah, and Muhammad is his prophet! Allahu Akbar! Allahu Akbar!
What you cannot seem to stomach is that the sponsors agreed with me that his behaviour was unacceptable. It is Destiny and his ungoverned behaviour that was likely to turn away sponsors from the scene.
I take no issue with the actions of Quantic or Razer. They did what they had to do.
If everyone in the SC2 community agreed with you then the sponsors would all leave because they cannot be associated with racial abuse and those who condone it.
If everyone agreed with me, there would be no outcry and no reason for sponsors to leave. We'd have an uncensored community where players wouldn't be afraid to express unusual or unpopular opinions out of fear of punishment. Sounds just fine to me.
You continue to embarrass yourself. You have no arguments except that you are appear unhappy that racism is now marginalised by society.
You have decided in your mind that I am pro-racism and that everything I say is some invented argument in order to support racism. That is not the case.
You need to wrap your mind around the fact that I am talking about free speech, not racism.
Do you believe that rappers should be banned from using the word "nigger" in their songs, under penalty of losing their jobs? Do you believe that the TV show South Park should be pulled off the air? Do you think movies should not be allowed to have racist characters in them?
I don't. I think all of these things should be allowed, and people who find that material offensive should simply avoid it. And this is exactly the same kind of situation... except in our case, the TL morality police decided to petition against the offensive material instead of simply ignoring it.
This isn't a free speech debate lol. Destiny is not some kind of victim or free speech martyr. He's still free to say whatever he wants on his stream. No one is forcing Destiny to say or not say anything. Destiny was a brand ambassador for Razer by being a part of Quantic. A lot people use Razer products and don't want them supporting players who promote racist and homophobic language so they contacted Razer. Then Razer pulled the strings on Quantic. Shocking. This isn't a witch-hunt but a sequence of entirely predictable cause-and-effect events that have played themselves out in many competitive arenas. Furthermore, Destiny is still free to find a sponsor who will tolerate his language and support him.
I hate that argument. "He's free to say whatever he wants, but he should be prepared to accept the punishment for it". Newsflash... if there's a punishment for unpopular speech, then it isn't exactly free speech. I'm sure some Chinese officials would agree that their citizens are free to talk about the Tiananmen Square Massacre, just as long as they're prepared to accept the jail time that comes afterwards.
Yes, I'm aware that the technical definition of free speech involves the right to speech without fear of punishment from law enforcement. But by going the angry mob route, people are creating their own unwritten laws and enforcing vigilante justice, which is worse than the "crime" of calling someone a nasty name.
To those who support the idea of emailing Razer and getting Destiny fired- what's wrong with the concept of "if you don't like it, don't watch it"?
I agree.
People sending their thoughts to sponsors is an excellent example of Free Speech in action.
Its stupid that there are people out there who want to limit people's rights to send whatever speech they want to the sponsors of a player.
If you are against Racism, then you should be okay with people sending letters to sponsors. If you are pro-free speech, then you should be okay with people exercising free speech and sending letters to sponsors. If you are pro racism, then you should be against the sending of letters to sponsors.
On May 08 2012 12:49 Fubi wrote: But who are we to decide what the CORRECT course of action is?
We are human beings with brains. We can evaluate the options and determine which option is the most appropriate for the situation, and the most fair for all parties involved. The most appropriate option was to stop watching/supporting the things that offend you.
But that is obviously your opinion on what is fair and appropriate, the people complaining had just as much right to do so as Destiny had just as much right to use racial slurs. Who are you to say that these people are wrong to feel that Destiny shouldn't be getting sponsored for his actions?
And like I said in my previous post that you ignored most of, if this happens in any other industries, be it other sports, entertainment or business industry, the same shit-storm will happen; so why should e-sport be any different? If Kobe Bryant made a racist comment in public and got caught, then people complained and he got suspended from the NBA, most people would point fingers at Kobe instead of the complainers. The same for any professionals in most other industries; so again, why should e-sport be any different?
You don't agree with the people "witch-hunting"? Cool, so don't do it yourself; I don't do it. But realize that they have every right to do so, and they are not wrong; they just perceive and value those racial slurs differently than you, and have different opinion on what is appropriate and fair.
On May 08 2012 09:39 revel8 wrote: Sad to see racist language still being defended by posters in this thread. They even pretend that those who object to racist language are the bigots. Must be the kkk demographic.
Sad to see that so many people still don't get the point. We're not saying "racist language isn't such a big deal, just man up and ignore it".
We're saying it's not your fucking job to be the internet morality police. It is not your place to demand that people clean up their language. It is not your place to punish those whose actions fall outside of what you consider to be acceptable.
If you emailed Razer to complain, you are no different than Christian groups complaining about the TV show Glee because it promotes acceptance of gay people, or Muslims demanding that newspapers not print a cartoon of Muhammad.
You don't get to demand that your moral code is followed by everyone else, under threat of whatever punishment you are able to come up with. That is a fucked up situation to occur and I will always stand against it. Especially when it will have the side effect of driving sponsors away from E-sports if it keeps happening.
And if you read this post and think that my message is "Chocobo is someone who thinks it's ok to call people niggers and gooks" then you need to get your head examined.
It is laughable that because I am opposed to racism you imply I am bigoted and compare my stance of opposing racism to those who display homophobic behaviour or religious fundamentalism.
Translation: "haha, those silly groups with their strange moral code, trying to control the actions of others... what a bunch of crazies. Luckily I follow the correct and accurate set of morals, and am completely justified in my attempts to control others with it."
So being opposed to racism is now an example of bigotry? Hilarious. You are just embarrassing yourself now in your desperation to defend racist comments.
Like I said, you need to get your head examined. If you are unable to see the difference between supporting the right to use free speech without losing your job and supporting racism, then something isn't working right in there.
My moral code is the code of modern progressive society in which racism is not tolerated but opposed, if your personal moral code is lacking and anachronistic then that is not my problem, it's yours.
There is no God but Allah, and Muhammad is his prophet! Allahu Akbar! Allahu Akbar!
What you cannot seem to stomach is that the sponsors agreed with me that his behaviour was unacceptable. It is Destiny and his ungoverned behaviour that was likely to turn away sponsors from the scene.
I take no issue with the actions of Quantic or Razer. They did what they had to do.
If everyone in the SC2 community agreed with you then the sponsors would all leave because they cannot be associated with racial abuse and those who condone it.
If everyone agreed with me, there would be no outcry and no reason for sponsors to leave. We'd have an uncensored community where players wouldn't be afraid to express unusual or unpopular opinions out of fear of punishment. Sounds just fine to me.
You continue to embarrass yourself. You have no arguments except that you are appear unhappy that racism is now marginalised by society.
You have decided in your mind that I am pro-racism and that everything I say is some invented argument in order to support racism. That is not the case.
You need to wrap your mind around the fact that I am talking about free speech, not racism.
Do you believe that rappers should be banned from using the word "nigger" in their songs, under penalty of losing their jobs? Do you believe that the TV show South Park should be pulled off the air? Do you think movies should not be allowed to have racist characters in them?
I don't. I think all of these things should be allowed, and people who find that material offensive should simply avoid it. And this is exactly the same kind of situation... except in our case, the TL morality police decided to petition against the offensive material instead of simply ignoring it.
This isn't a free speech debate lol. Destiny is not some kind of victim or free speech martyr. He's still free to say whatever he wants on his stream. No one is forcing Destiny to say or not say anything. Destiny was a brand ambassador for Razer by being a part of Quantic. A lot people use Razer products and don't want them supporting players who promote racist and homophobic language so they contacted Razer. Then Razer pulled the strings on Quantic. Shocking. This isn't a witch-hunt but a sequence of entirely predictable cause-and-effect events that have played themselves out in many competitive arenas. Furthermore, Destiny is still free to find a sponsor who will tolerate his language and support him.
I hate that argument. "He's free to say whatever he wants, but he should be prepared to accept the punishment for it". Newsflash... if there's a punishment for unpopular speech, then it isn't exactly free speech.
Free speech is protection from government reprisal, it doesn't mean other people aren't allowed to take personal offense. Private punishment (so long as it's within the law) still holds - you can be fired, ostracized, etc etc
On May 08 2012 12:49 Fubi wrote: But who are we to decide what the CORRECT course of action is?
We are human beings with brains. We can evaluate the options and determine which option is the most appropriate for the situation, and the most fair for all parties involved. The most appropriate option was to stop watching/supporting the things that offend you.
You're actually trying to say that every single person should decide on the exact same thing? All while you bring up the point that we have brains?
if people run to sponsors for every single thing we will not have sponsors anymore. Let the team handle things. You can't act like children when you can actually mess up other people's lives.
On May 08 2012 09:39 revel8 wrote: Sad to see racist language still being defended by posters in this thread. They even pretend that those who object to racist language are the bigots. Must be the kkk demographic.
Sad to see that so many people still don't get the point. We're not saying "racist language isn't such a big deal, just man up and ignore it".
We're saying it's not your fucking job to be the internet morality police. It is not your place to demand that people clean up their language. It is not your place to punish those whose actions fall outside of what you consider to be acceptable.
If you emailed Razer to complain, you are no different than Christian groups complaining about the TV show Glee because it promotes acceptance of gay people, or Muslims demanding that newspapers not print a cartoon of Muhammad.
You don't get to demand that your moral code is followed by everyone else, under threat of whatever punishment you are able to come up with. That is a fucked up situation to occur and I will always stand against it. Especially when it will have the side effect of driving sponsors away from E-sports if it keeps happening.
And if you read this post and think that my message is "Chocobo is someone who thinks it's ok to call people niggers and gooks" then you need to get your head examined.
It is laughable that because I am opposed to racism you imply I am bigoted and compare my stance of opposing racism to those who display homophobic behaviour or religious fundamentalism.
Translation: "haha, those silly groups with their strange moral code, trying to control the actions of others... what a bunch of crazies. Luckily I follow the correct and accurate set of morals, and am completely justified in my attempts to control others with it."
So being opposed to racism is now an example of bigotry? Hilarious. You are just embarrassing yourself now in your desperation to defend racist comments.
Like I said, you need to get your head examined. If you are unable to see the difference between supporting the right to use free speech without losing your job and supporting racism, then something isn't working right in there.
My moral code is the code of modern progressive society in which racism is not tolerated but opposed, if your personal moral code is lacking and anachronistic then that is not my problem, it's yours.
There is no God but Allah, and Muhammad is his prophet! Allahu Akbar! Allahu Akbar!
What you cannot seem to stomach is that the sponsors agreed with me that his behaviour was unacceptable. It is Destiny and his ungoverned behaviour that was likely to turn away sponsors from the scene.
I take no issue with the actions of Quantic or Razer. They did what they had to do.
If everyone in the SC2 community agreed with you then the sponsors would all leave because they cannot be associated with racial abuse and those who condone it.
If everyone agreed with me, there would be no outcry and no reason for sponsors to leave. We'd have an uncensored community where players wouldn't be afraid to express unusual or unpopular opinions out of fear of punishment. Sounds just fine to me.
You continue to embarrass yourself. You have no arguments except that you are appear unhappy that racism is now marginalised by society.
You have decided in your mind that I am pro-racism and that everything I say is some invented argument in order to support racism. That is not the case.
You need to wrap your mind around the fact that I am talking about free speech, not racism.
Do you believe that rappers should be banned from using the word "nigger" in their songs, under penalty of losing their jobs? Do you believe that the TV show South Park should be pulled off the air? Do you think movies should not be allowed to have racist characters in them?
I don't. I think all of these things should be allowed, and people who find that material offensive should simply avoid it. And this is exactly the same kind of situation... except in our case, the TL morality police decided to petition against the offensive material instead of simply ignoring it.
This isn't a free speech debate lol. Destiny is not some kind of victim or free speech martyr. He's still free to say whatever he wants on his stream. No one is forcing Destiny to say or not say anything. Destiny was a brand ambassador for Razer by being a part of Quantic. A lot people use Razer products and don't want them supporting players who promote racist and homophobic language so they contacted Razer. Then Razer pulled the strings on Quantic. Shocking. This isn't a witch-hunt but a sequence of entirely predictable cause-and-effect events that have played themselves out in many competitive arenas. Furthermore, Destiny is still free to find a sponsor who will tolerate his language and support him.
I hate that argument. "He's free to say whatever he wants, but he should be prepared to accept the punishment for it". Newsflash... if there's a punishment for unpopular speech, then it isn't exactly free speech. I'm sure some Chinese officials would agree that their citizens are free to talk about the Tiananmen Square Massacre, just as long as they're prepared to accept the jail time that comes afterwards.
Yes, I'm aware that the technical definition of free speech involves the right to speech without fear of punishment from law enforcement. But by going the angry mob route, people are creating their own unwritten laws and enforcing vigilante justice, which is worse than the "crime" of calling someone a nasty name.
To those who support the idea of emailing Razer and getting Destiny fired- what's wrong with the concept of "if you don't like it, don't watch it"?
I agree.
People sending their thoughts to sponsors is an excellent example of Free Speech in action.
Its stupid that there are people out there who want to limit people's rights to send whatever speech they want to the sponsors of a player.
If you are against Racism, then you should be okay with people sending letters to sponsors. If you are pro-free speech, then you should be okay with people exercising free speech and sending letters to sponsors. If you are pro racism, then you should be against the sending of letters to sponsors.
I am against racism. I am not okay with people immediately sending letters to sponsors. It is even worse when some of the people doing it were people who didn't watch his stream in the first place. Choosing a course of action which doesn't particularly harm the alleged racist, but could seriously impact a bunch of innocent people on his team does not make sense. That is not the only anti-racism course of action, believe it or not.
What a ridiculous argument. Just because some people don't agree with your point of view doesn't mean that they're all pro racism. Keep your terrible straw-man arguments out of it.
On May 08 2012 12:49 Fubi wrote: But who are we to decide what the CORRECT course of action is?
We are human beings with brains. We can evaluate the options and determine which option is the most appropriate for the situation, and the most fair for all parties involved. The most appropriate option was to stop watching/supporting the things that offend you.
You're actually trying to say that every single person should decide on the exact same thing? All while you bring up the point that we have brains?
What he means is that everyone should come up to the same opinion as he does--obviously the empirical evidence of other people with a different opinion than him existing in the world is not enough proof for him to think otherwise.
On May 08 2012 09:39 revel8 wrote: Sad to see racist language still being defended by posters in this thread. They even pretend that those who object to racist language are the bigots. Must be the kkk demographic.
Sad to see that so many people still don't get the point. We're not saying "racist language isn't such a big deal, just man up and ignore it".
We're saying it's not your fucking job to be the internet morality police. It is not your place to demand that people clean up their language. It is not your place to punish those whose actions fall outside of what you consider to be acceptable.
If you emailed Razer to complain, you are no different than Christian groups complaining about the TV show Glee because it promotes acceptance of gay people, or Muslims demanding that newspapers not print a cartoon of Muhammad.
You don't get to demand that your moral code is followed by everyone else, under threat of whatever punishment you are able to come up with. That is a fucked up situation to occur and I will always stand against it. Especially when it will have the side effect of driving sponsors away from E-sports if it keeps happening.
And if you read this post and think that my message is "Chocobo is someone who thinks it's ok to call people niggers and gooks" then you need to get your head examined.
It is laughable that because I am opposed to racism you imply I am bigoted and compare my stance of opposing racism to those who display homophobic behaviour or religious fundamentalism.
Translation: "haha, those silly groups with their strange moral code, trying to control the actions of others... what a bunch of crazies. Luckily I follow the correct and accurate set of morals, and am completely justified in my attempts to control others with it."
So being opposed to racism is now an example of bigotry? Hilarious. You are just embarrassing yourself now in your desperation to defend racist comments.
Like I said, you need to get your head examined. If you are unable to see the difference between supporting the right to use free speech without losing your job and supporting racism, then something isn't working right in there.
My moral code is the code of modern progressive society in which racism is not tolerated but opposed, if your personal moral code is lacking and anachronistic then that is not my problem, it's yours.
There is no God but Allah, and Muhammad is his prophet! Allahu Akbar! Allahu Akbar!
What you cannot seem to stomach is that the sponsors agreed with me that his behaviour was unacceptable. It is Destiny and his ungoverned behaviour that was likely to turn away sponsors from the scene.
I take no issue with the actions of Quantic or Razer. They did what they had to do.
If everyone in the SC2 community agreed with you then the sponsors would all leave because they cannot be associated with racial abuse and those who condone it.
If everyone agreed with me, there would be no outcry and no reason for sponsors to leave. We'd have an uncensored community where players wouldn't be afraid to express unusual or unpopular opinions out of fear of punishment. Sounds just fine to me.
You continue to embarrass yourself. You have no arguments except that you are appear unhappy that racism is now marginalised by society.
You have decided in your mind that I am pro-racism and that everything I say is some invented argument in order to support racism. That is not the case.
You need to wrap your mind around the fact that I am talking about free speech, not racism.
Do you believe that rappers should be banned from using the word "nigger" in their songs, under penalty of losing their jobs? Do you believe that the TV show South Park should be pulled off the air? Do you think movies should not be allowed to have racist characters in them?
I don't. I think all of these things should be allowed, and people who find that material offensive should simply avoid it. And this is exactly the same kind of situation... except in our case, the TL morality police decided to petition against the offensive material instead of simply ignoring it.
This isn't a free speech debate lol. Destiny is not some kind of victim or free speech martyr. He's still free to say whatever he wants on his stream. No one is forcing Destiny to say or not say anything. Destiny was a brand ambassador for Razer by being a part of Quantic. A lot people use Razer products and don't want them supporting players who promote racist and homophobic language so they contacted Razer. Then Razer pulled the strings on Quantic. Shocking. This isn't a witch-hunt but a sequence of entirely predictable cause-and-effect events that have played themselves out in many competitive arenas. Furthermore, Destiny is still free to find a sponsor who will tolerate his language and support him.
I hate that argument. "He's free to say whatever he wants, but he should be prepared to accept the punishment for it". Newsflash... if there's a punishment for unpopular speech, then it isn't exactly free speech. I'm sure some Chinese officials would agree that their citizens are free to talk about the Tiananmen Square Massacre, just as long as they're prepared to accept the jail time that comes afterwards.
Yes, I'm aware that the technical definition of free speech involves the right to speech without fear of punishment from law enforcement. But by going the angry mob route, people are creating their own unwritten laws and enforcing vigilante justice, which is worse than the "crime" of calling someone a nasty name.
To those who support the idea of emailing Razer and getting Destiny fired- what's wrong with the concept of "if you don't like it, don't watch it"?
I agree.
People sending their thoughts to sponsors is an excellent example of Free Speech in action.
Its stupid that there are people out there who want to limit people's rights to send whatever speech they want to the sponsors of a player.
If you are against Racism, then you should be okay with people sending letters to sponsors. If you are pro-free speech, then you should be okay with people exercising free speech and sending letters to sponsors. If you are pro racism, then you should be against the sending of letters to sponsors.
I am against racism. I am not okay with people immediately sending letters to sponsors. It is even worse when some of the people doing it were people who didn't watch his stream in the first place. Choosing a course of action which doesn't particularly harm the alleged racist, but could seriously impact a bunch of innocent people on his team does not make sense. That is not the only anti-racism course of action, believe it or not.
What a ridiculous argument. Just because some people don't agree with your point of view doesn't mean that they're all pro racism. Keep your terrible straw-man arguments out of it.
Not saying I people should agree with me.
I'm saying if everyone is free to speak their mind--that should also include those people who enjoy sending letters to sponsors. They are people too. They, as people, also have free speech. To be against them speaking their mind is to be against free speech.
Why do you wish to shut up others who disagree with you?
On May 08 2012 09:39 revel8 wrote: Sad to see racist language still being defended by posters in this thread. They even pretend that those who object to racist language are the bigots. Must be the kkk demographic.
Sad to see that so many people still don't get the point. We're not saying "racist language isn't such a big deal, just man up and ignore it".
We're saying it's not your fucking job to be the internet morality police. It is not your place to demand that people clean up their language. It is not your place to punish those whose actions fall outside of what you consider to be acceptable.
If you emailed Razer to complain, you are no different than Christian groups complaining about the TV show Glee because it promotes acceptance of gay people, or Muslims demanding that newspapers not print a cartoon of Muhammad.
You don't get to demand that your moral code is followed by everyone else, under threat of whatever punishment you are able to come up with. That is a fucked up situation to occur and I will always stand against it. Especially when it will have the side effect of driving sponsors away from E-sports if it keeps happening.
And if you read this post and think that my message is "Chocobo is someone who thinks it's ok to call people niggers and gooks" then you need to get your head examined.
It is laughable that because I am opposed to racism you imply I am bigoted and compare my stance of opposing racism to those who display homophobic behaviour or religious fundamentalism.
Translation: "haha, those silly groups with their strange moral code, trying to control the actions of others... what a bunch of crazies. Luckily I follow the correct and accurate set of morals, and am completely justified in my attempts to control others with it."
So being opposed to racism is now an example of bigotry? Hilarious. You are just embarrassing yourself now in your desperation to defend racist comments.
Like I said, you need to get your head examined. If you are unable to see the difference between supporting the right to use free speech without losing your job and supporting racism, then something isn't working right in there.
My moral code is the code of modern progressive society in which racism is not tolerated but opposed, if your personal moral code is lacking and anachronistic then that is not my problem, it's yours.
There is no God but Allah, and Muhammad is his prophet! Allahu Akbar! Allahu Akbar!
What you cannot seem to stomach is that the sponsors agreed with me that his behaviour was unacceptable. It is Destiny and his ungoverned behaviour that was likely to turn away sponsors from the scene.
I take no issue with the actions of Quantic or Razer. They did what they had to do.
If everyone in the SC2 community agreed with you then the sponsors would all leave because they cannot be associated with racial abuse and those who condone it.
If everyone agreed with me, there would be no outcry and no reason for sponsors to leave. We'd have an uncensored community where players wouldn't be afraid to express unusual or unpopular opinions out of fear of punishment. Sounds just fine to me.
You continue to embarrass yourself. You have no arguments except that you are appear unhappy that racism is now marginalised by society.
You have decided in your mind that I am pro-racism and that everything I say is some invented argument in order to support racism. That is not the case.
You need to wrap your mind around the fact that I am talking about free speech, not racism.
Do you believe that rappers should be banned from using the word "nigger" in their songs, under penalty of losing their jobs? Do you believe that the TV show South Park should be pulled off the air? Do you think movies should not be allowed to have racist characters in them?
I don't. I think all of these things should be allowed, and people who find that material offensive should simply avoid it. And this is exactly the same kind of situation... except in our case, the TL morality police decided to petition against the offensive material instead of simply ignoring it.
This isn't a free speech debate lol. Destiny is not some kind of victim or free speech martyr. He's still free to say whatever he wants on his stream. No one is forcing Destiny to say or not say anything. Destiny was a brand ambassador for Razer by being a part of Quantic. A lot people use Razer products and don't want them supporting players who promote racist and homophobic language so they contacted Razer. Then Razer pulled the strings on Quantic. Shocking. This isn't a witch-hunt but a sequence of entirely predictable cause-and-effect events that have played themselves out in many competitive arenas. Furthermore, Destiny is still free to find a sponsor who will tolerate his language and support him.
I hate that argument. "He's free to say whatever he wants, but he should be prepared to accept the punishment for it". Newsflash... if there's a punishment for unpopular speech, then it isn't exactly free speech. I'm sure some Chinese officials would agree that their citizens are free to talk about the Tiananmen Square Massacre, just as long as they're prepared to accept the jail time that comes afterwards.
Yes, I'm aware that the technical definition of free speech involves the right to speech without fear of punishment from law enforcement. But by going the angry mob route, people are creating their own unwritten laws and enforcing vigilante justice, which is worse than the "crime" of calling someone a nasty name.
To those who support the idea of emailing Razer and getting Destiny fired- what's wrong with the concept of "if you don't like it, don't watch it"?
I agree.
People sending their thoughts to sponsors is an excellent example of Free Speech in action.
Its stupid that there are people out there who want to limit people's rights to send whatever speech they want to the sponsors of a player.
If you are against Racism, then you should be okay with people sending letters to sponsors. If you are pro-free speech, then you should be okay with people exercising free speech and sending letters to sponsors. If you are pro racism, then you should be against the sending of letters to sponsors.
What?
I am against racism. And i think people sending letters to sponsors is close to the dumbest idea ever. Ever. That is the craziest assumption;
Nobody would be taken seriously if they argued that racism is good; the point is that writing to sponsors is a disproportionate response to Destiny's actions. I definitely believe he should be punished for his antics, especially when representing a team, but i believe that responsibility begins and ends with Quantic's management. It's also not about being for or against free speech. I believe in free speech; but that doesn't mean i can't criticize people exercising their right to free speech in a profoundly dumb way
When sponsors are willing to cut someone and end a contract because of these things then all the "witch hunters" are doing is helping them out. The other people just want to put a lid on it and "hide" it from them, which does far more harm to sponsors if someone ever posts a article that Razer or Intel or whomever is sponsoring racists who run wild on the internet while their fanboys try to hide it from everyone.
the point is that writing to sponsors is a disproportionate response to Destiny's actions.
How is that? When sponsors themselves are ready to let go of these people? They clearly do not want to sponsor players saying these things. Thus its not "dumb" to contact them. Whats dumb is racially abusing someone in a videogame
People aren't fabricating these allegations, there are plenty of screenshots that prove these things, and even better (or worse depending on your view) guys like Destiny even further entice it, arguing for it and even posting "lulzy" videos like the Nigga Nigga Nigga song on his Twitter.
And you are still arguing that we shouldn't take action?
If esports "ends" because the community is too immature, anti social, homophobic and racist to be presented to a large audience then it probably deserves to end. If this is all we got (and its not) then we dont deserve much
It is a shame because there are tons of people doing great work, from commentators, to hardworking players, community managers, streamers. But if there are people in our community who are unable to racially abuse people, then all their work goes down the crapper sadly.
It is your right to say whatever you want on the interwebs, but it is also our right and i would argue, responsibility, to clean it up.
On May 08 2012 09:39 revel8 wrote: Sad to see racist language still being defended by posters in this thread. They even pretend that those who object to racist language are the bigots. Must be the kkk demographic.
Sad to see that so many people still don't get the point. We're not saying "racist language isn't such a big deal, just man up and ignore it".
We're saying it's not your fucking job to be the internet morality police. It is not your place to demand that people clean up their language. It is not your place to punish those whose actions fall outside of what you consider to be acceptable.
If you emailed Razer to complain, you are no different than Christian groups complaining about the TV show Glee because it promotes acceptance of gay people, or Muslims demanding that newspapers not print a cartoon of Muhammad.
You don't get to demand that your moral code is followed by everyone else, under threat of whatever punishment you are able to come up with. That is a fucked up situation to occur and I will always stand against it. Especially when it will have the side effect of driving sponsors away from E-sports if it keeps happening.
And if you read this post and think that my message is "Chocobo is someone who thinks it's ok to call people niggers and gooks" then you need to get your head examined.
It is laughable that because I am opposed to racism you imply I am bigoted and compare my stance of opposing racism to those who display homophobic behaviour or religious fundamentalism.
Translation: "haha, those silly groups with their strange moral code, trying to control the actions of others... what a bunch of crazies. Luckily I follow the correct and accurate set of morals, and am completely justified in my attempts to control others with it."
So being opposed to racism is now an example of bigotry? Hilarious. You are just embarrassing yourself now in your desperation to defend racist comments.
Like I said, you need to get your head examined. If you are unable to see the difference between supporting the right to use free speech without losing your job and supporting racism, then something isn't working right in there.
My moral code is the code of modern progressive society in which racism is not tolerated but opposed, if your personal moral code is lacking and anachronistic then that is not my problem, it's yours.
There is no God but Allah, and Muhammad is his prophet! Allahu Akbar! Allahu Akbar!
What you cannot seem to stomach is that the sponsors agreed with me that his behaviour was unacceptable. It is Destiny and his ungoverned behaviour that was likely to turn away sponsors from the scene.
I take no issue with the actions of Quantic or Razer. They did what they had to do.
If everyone in the SC2 community agreed with you then the sponsors would all leave because they cannot be associated with racial abuse and those who condone it.
If everyone agreed with me, there would be no outcry and no reason for sponsors to leave. We'd have an uncensored community where players wouldn't be afraid to express unusual or unpopular opinions out of fear of punishment. Sounds just fine to me.
You continue to embarrass yourself. You have no arguments except that you are appear unhappy that racism is now marginalised by society.
You have decided in your mind that I am pro-racism and that everything I say is some invented argument in order to support racism. That is not the case.
You need to wrap your mind around the fact that I am talking about free speech, not racism.
Do you believe that rappers should be banned from using the word "nigger" in their songs, under penalty of losing their jobs? Do you believe that the TV show South Park should be pulled off the air? Do you think movies should not be allowed to have racist characters in them?
I don't. I think all of these things should be allowed, and people who find that material offensive should simply avoid it. And this is exactly the same kind of situation... except in our case, the TL morality police decided to petition against the offensive material instead of simply ignoring it.
This isn't a free speech debate lol. Destiny is not some kind of victim or free speech martyr. He's still free to say whatever he wants on his stream. No one is forcing Destiny to say or not say anything. Destiny was a brand ambassador for Razer by being a part of Quantic. A lot people use Razer products and don't want them supporting players who promote racist and homophobic language so they contacted Razer. Then Razer pulled the strings on Quantic. Shocking. This isn't a witch-hunt but a sequence of entirely predictable cause-and-effect events that have played themselves out in many competitive arenas. Furthermore, Destiny is still free to find a sponsor who will tolerate his language and support him.
I hate that argument. "He's free to say whatever he wants, but he should be prepared to accept the punishment for it". Newsflash... if there's a punishment for unpopular speech, then it isn't exactly free speech. I'm sure some Chinese officials would agree that their citizens are free to talk about the Tiananmen Square Massacre, just as long as they're prepared to accept the jail time that comes afterwards.
Yes, I'm aware that the technical definition of free speech involves the right to speech without fear of punishment from law enforcement. But by going the angry mob route, people are creating their own unwritten laws and enforcing vigilante justice, which is worse than the "crime" of calling someone a nasty name.
To those who support the idea of emailing Razer and getting Destiny fired- what's wrong with the concept of "if you don't like it, don't watch it"?
I agree.
People sending their thoughts to sponsors is an excellent example of Free Speech in action.
Its stupid that there are people out there who want to limit people's rights to send whatever speech they want to the sponsors of a player.
If you are against Racism, then you should be okay with people sending letters to sponsors. If you are pro-free speech, then you should be okay with people exercising free speech and sending letters to sponsors. If you are pro racism, then you should be against the sending of letters to sponsors.
What?
I am against racism. And i think people sending letters to sponsors is close to the dumbest idea ever. Ever. That is the craziest assumption;
Nobody would be taken seriously if they argued that racism is good; the point is that writing to sponsors is a disproportionate response to Destiny's actions. I definitely believe he should be punished for his antics, especially when representing a team, but i believe that responsibility begins and ends with Quantic's management. It's also not about being for or against free speech. I believe in free speech; but that doesn't mean i can't criticize people exercising their right to free speech in a profoundly dumb way
I agree. The problem though is most teams don't do anything in hopes that the problem would just "go away" and then people get frustrated at the lack of response and begin emailing sponsors. These teams need to learn that the SC2 community never forgives and never forgets.
On May 08 2012 10:40 Chocobo wrote: [quote] Sad to see that so many people still don't get the point. We're not saying "racist language isn't such a big deal, just man up and ignore it".
We're saying it's not your fucking job to be the internet morality police. It is not your place to demand that people clean up their language. It is not your place to punish those whose actions fall outside of what you consider to be acceptable.
If you emailed Razer to complain, you are no different than Christian groups complaining about the TV show Glee because it promotes acceptance of gay people, or Muslims demanding that newspapers not print a cartoon of Muhammad.
You don't get to demand that your moral code is followed by everyone else, under threat of whatever punishment you are able to come up with. That is a fucked up situation to occur and I will always stand against it. Especially when it will have the side effect of driving sponsors away from E-sports if it keeps happening.
And if you read this post and think that my message is "Chocobo is someone who thinks it's ok to call people niggers and gooks" then you need to get your head examined.
It is laughable that because I am opposed to racism you imply I am bigoted and compare my stance of opposing racism to those who display homophobic behaviour or religious fundamentalism.
Translation: "haha, those silly groups with their strange moral code, trying to control the actions of others... what a bunch of crazies. Luckily I follow the correct and accurate set of morals, and am completely justified in my attempts to control others with it."
So being opposed to racism is now an example of bigotry? Hilarious. You are just embarrassing yourself now in your desperation to defend racist comments.
Like I said, you need to get your head examined. If you are unable to see the difference between supporting the right to use free speech without losing your job and supporting racism, then something isn't working right in there.
My moral code is the code of modern progressive society in which racism is not tolerated but opposed, if your personal moral code is lacking and anachronistic then that is not my problem, it's yours.
There is no God but Allah, and Muhammad is his prophet! Allahu Akbar! Allahu Akbar!
What you cannot seem to stomach is that the sponsors agreed with me that his behaviour was unacceptable. It is Destiny and his ungoverned behaviour that was likely to turn away sponsors from the scene.
I take no issue with the actions of Quantic or Razer. They did what they had to do.
If everyone in the SC2 community agreed with you then the sponsors would all leave because they cannot be associated with racial abuse and those who condone it.
If everyone agreed with me, there would be no outcry and no reason for sponsors to leave. We'd have an uncensored community where players wouldn't be afraid to express unusual or unpopular opinions out of fear of punishment. Sounds just fine to me.
You continue to embarrass yourself. You have no arguments except that you are appear unhappy that racism is now marginalised by society.
You have decided in your mind that I am pro-racism and that everything I say is some invented argument in order to support racism. That is not the case.
You need to wrap your mind around the fact that I am talking about free speech, not racism.
Do you believe that rappers should be banned from using the word "nigger" in their songs, under penalty of losing their jobs? Do you believe that the TV show South Park should be pulled off the air? Do you think movies should not be allowed to have racist characters in them?
I don't. I think all of these things should be allowed, and people who find that material offensive should simply avoid it. And this is exactly the same kind of situation... except in our case, the TL morality police decided to petition against the offensive material instead of simply ignoring it.
This isn't a free speech debate lol. Destiny is not some kind of victim or free speech martyr. He's still free to say whatever he wants on his stream. No one is forcing Destiny to say or not say anything. Destiny was a brand ambassador for Razer by being a part of Quantic. A lot people use Razer products and don't want them supporting players who promote racist and homophobic language so they contacted Razer. Then Razer pulled the strings on Quantic. Shocking. This isn't a witch-hunt but a sequence of entirely predictable cause-and-effect events that have played themselves out in many competitive arenas. Furthermore, Destiny is still free to find a sponsor who will tolerate his language and support him.
I hate that argument. "He's free to say whatever he wants, but he should be prepared to accept the punishment for it". Newsflash... if there's a punishment for unpopular speech, then it isn't exactly free speech. I'm sure some Chinese officials would agree that their citizens are free to talk about the Tiananmen Square Massacre, just as long as they're prepared to accept the jail time that comes afterwards.
Yes, I'm aware that the technical definition of free speech involves the right to speech without fear of punishment from law enforcement. But by going the angry mob route, people are creating their own unwritten laws and enforcing vigilante justice, which is worse than the "crime" of calling someone a nasty name.
To those who support the idea of emailing Razer and getting Destiny fired- what's wrong with the concept of "if you don't like it, don't watch it"?
I agree.
People sending their thoughts to sponsors is an excellent example of Free Speech in action.
Its stupid that there are people out there who want to limit people's rights to send whatever speech they want to the sponsors of a player.
If you are against Racism, then you should be okay with people sending letters to sponsors. If you are pro-free speech, then you should be okay with people exercising free speech and sending letters to sponsors. If you are pro racism, then you should be against the sending of letters to sponsors.
I am against racism. I am not okay with people immediately sending letters to sponsors. It is even worse when some of the people doing it were people who didn't watch his stream in the first place. Choosing a course of action which doesn't particularly harm the alleged racist, but could seriously impact a bunch of innocent people on his team does not make sense. That is not the only anti-racism course of action, believe it or not.
What a ridiculous argument. Just because some people don't agree with your point of view doesn't mean that they're all pro racism. Keep your terrible straw-man arguments out of it.
Not saying I people should agree with me.
I'm saying if everyone is free to speak their mind--that should also include those people who enjoy sending letters to sponsors. They are people too. They, as people, also have free speech. To be against them speaking their mind is to be against free speech.
Why do you wish to shut up others who disagree with you?
(Emphasis added)
The fact that someone has a right (free speech) does not prevent him from showing restraint and judgement when excercising it. A dicussion about wether parts of the community show sound judgement when excercising their rights does not make one against people having that right. No one is questioning that people have the right to free speech. The question is, are they using it in a constructive manner.
EPT
