• Log InLog In
  • Register
Liquid`
Team Liquid Liquipedia
EDT 03:09
CEST 09:09
KST 16:09
  • Home
  • Forum
  • Calendar
  • Streams
  • Liquipedia
  • Features
  • Store
  • EPT
  • TL+
  • StarCraft 2
  • Brood War
  • Smash
  • Heroes
  • Counter-Strike
  • Overwatch
  • Liquibet
  • Fantasy StarCraft
  • TLPD
  • StarCraft 2
  • Brood War
  • Blogs
Forum Sidebar
Events/Features
News
Featured News
Serral wins HomeStory Cup 2915Serral wins Maestros of the Game 243ByuL, and the Limitations of Standard Play3Team Liquid Map Contest #22: Results and Winners7Code S Season 2 (2026): RO4 and Finals Preview12
Community News
GSTL Returns in 2026!38Weekly Cups (Aug 3-9): Protoss get shut out7RSL goes to London! 2026 Offline Finals Nov 21-2212Weekly Cups (July 27-Aug 2): SHIN's big week0SC4ALL II: Brood War - $2500 - Dec 5-611
StarCraft 2
General
GSTL Returns in 2026! Balance hotfix patch 5.0.16b (July 16) SC4ALL: II Talent Announcement! Protoss AoE skill expression Weekly Cups (Aug 3-9): Protoss get shut out
Tourneys
PIG STY FESTIVAL 8.0! (13 - 23 August) Sparkling Tuna Cup - Weekly Open Tournament 2026 GSTL Announcement Sea Duckling Open (Global, Bronze-Diamond) 2026 KungFu Cup Announcement
Strategy
[G] Having the right mentality to improve
Custom Maps
Nexus Wars 2021 GUIDE [M] (2) Industrial Park
External Content
Mutation # 538 Media Blackout The PondCast: SC2 News & Results Mutation # 537 Hostile Territory Mutation # 536 Railroad Switch
Brood War
General
Best Games Kespa era BCA KCU TANGERANG Telp:08218200233 Your past clans BW General Discussion ASL22 General Discussion
Tourneys
CSLAN 4 is Coming! Small VOD Thread 2.0 Escore Tournament - Season 3 BSL LAN Party - Kraków 29-30 August - OPEN SIGNUPS
Strategy
Odyssey Mineral Stack Saturation Fighting Spirit mining rates Any training maps people recommend? Simple Questions, Simple Answers
Other Games
General Games
Nintendo Switch Thread Anyone here play Quakeworld back in the day? Stormgate/Frost Giant Megathread EVE Corporation General RTS Discussion Thread
Dota 2
Official 'what is Dota anymore' discussion
League of Legends
[TL LoL EUW IHs] Teemo shall perish TSM pausing esports and CLG Dead
Heroes of the Storm
Heroes of the Storm 2.0
Hearthstone
Deck construction bug
TL Mafia
TL Mafia Power Rank TL Mafia Community Thread NeO.D_StephenKing vs This Guy From 1 Million Dance
Community
General
Russo-Ukrainian War Thread US Politics Mega-thread European Politico-economics QA Mega-thread Artificial Intelligence Thread The Letting Off Steam Thread
Fan Clubs
MarineLorD Fan Club The ShoWTimE Fan Club The herO Fan Club!
Media & Entertainment
Movie Discussion! Anime Discussion Thread Series you have seen recently... [Req][Books] Good Fantasy/SciFi books
Sports
MLB/Baseball 2023 Football (Soccer) Thread TeamLiquid Health and Fitness Initiative For 2023 NBA General Discussion Formula 1 Discussion
World Cup 2022
Tech Support
Computer Build, Upgrade & Buying Resource Thread Simple Questions Simple Answers FPS when play League Of Legend on laptop
TL Community
The Automated Ban List Northern Ireland Global Starcraft
Blogs
LOCKPICKING NOOB
LUCKY_NOOB
Chinese Gen Z: Between Dream…
TrAiDoS
Cathedral Of CS And NY pizza a…
FuDDx
Please support my new stand…
Peanutsc
Hello guys!
LIN1s
Customize Sidebar...

Website Feedback

Closed Threads



Active: 6832 users

Match Making Rating Tool - Page 98

Forum Index > SC2 General
Post a Reply
Prev 1 96 97 98 99 100 207 Next
shadogi
Profile Joined November 2011
United States194 Posts
October 23 2012 21:45 GMT
#1941
Why did I lose MMR for winning? I've also noticed that sometimes when I win against someone with a similar MMR, I will get 15-20 points, but other times it will give me 8 or less. What's up?

http://imgur.com/CVvjH
skeldark
Profile Joined April 2010
Germany2223 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-10-23 22:44:54
October 23 2012 21:50 GMT
#1942
On October 24 2012 06:45 shadogi wrote:
Why did I lose MMR for winning? I've also noticed that sometimes when I win against someone with a similar MMR, I will get 15-20 points, but other times it will give me 8 or less. What's up?

http://imgur.com/CVvjH

Because the program is not accurate to the last point!

Every game have a errormargin. Often its +-12 points sometimes way more.
I try to correct it as far as i can with the given information.

Technical:
Case A: Last game is a good game:
Game 1 Was to high. Game 2 can not be corrected higher than 1 because Game 3 would tell otherwise.
In this case you can see the fall after a win as correction of an overall to high value.

Case B: Last game was a bad game.
The correction function will wait for the next good game to correct the fall after a win.
If next good game allow it, he will raise the marked game and all games between this one and the good game above the game before the Fall.
If next good game dont allow it, he will not correct it because in this case a correction would create follow up mistakes. See Case A.


For you its a mistake in the data, for me its a success that you complain about +-10 points ^^
See it this way:10 points wrong at 1500 points is more than 99% accurate
And even here its possible the correction algorithm is still waiting for data and will correct it with next good game.
Save gaming: kill esport
korona
Profile Joined October 2009
1098 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-10-25 10:08:58
October 25 2012 07:52 GMT
#1943
Ladders seem to be now locked at least on some servers.

EU server was supposed to be locked on Wednesday, October 24 at 23:59 p.m. CEST: http://eu.battle.net/sc2/en/blog/6298734/2012_Season_4_Lock_Incoming_-18_10_2012

US server was supposed to be locked at same time: Wednesday, October 24 at 23:59 p.m. CEST: http://us.battle.net/sc2/en/blog/7634960/2012_Season_4_Lock_Incoming_-10_18_2012

I monitored what happened to bonus pools during the night (EU time).

EU bonus pools indeed stopped growing both in-game & website during the night. Max bonus pool for master+ seems to be 552 and for diamond- 320.

But US bonus pools did not stop growing at that time (kept rising both on client & website). But 30 minutes ago 11:59 p.m PDT a news article was posted that US server would now be locked: http://us.battle.net/sc2/en/blog/7681241/2012_Season_4_Now_Locked-10_24_2012

If the US server was locked just 30 minutes ago (writing time, not posting) the max pool for master+ seems to be 561 and for diamond- 325. It has to be later confirmed if the bonus pools indeed stopped growing both on client & website on that time.


Edit: Now 3 hours has passed since the 'locked' post and bonus pools have not increased both on client & website. --> I guess NA had clean lock too (except the originally announced time was incorrect (not 11:59 p.m. CEST but 11:59 p.m. PDT).
skeldark
Profile Joined April 2010
Germany2223 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-10-25 11:07:06
October 25 2012 10:57 GMT
#1944
On October 25 2012 16:52 korona wrote:
Ladders seem to be now locked at least on some servers.

EU server was supposed to be locked on Wednesday, October 24 at 23:59 p.m. CEST: http://eu.battle.net/sc2/en/blog/6298734/2012_Season_4_Lock_Incoming_-18_10_2012

US server was supposed to be locked at same time: Wednesday, October 24 at 23:59 p.m. CEST: http://us.battle.net/sc2/en/blog/7634960/2012_Season_4_Lock_Incoming_-10_18_2012

I monitored what happened to bonus pools during the night (EU time).

EU bonus pools indeed stopped growing both in-game & website during the night. Max bonus pool for master+ seems to be 552 and for diamond- 320.

But US bonus pools did not stop growing at that time (kept rising both on client & website). But 30 minutes ago 11:59 p.m PDT a news article was posted that US server would now be locked: http://us.battle.net/sc2/en/blog/7681241/2012_Season_4_Now_Locked-10_24_2012

If the US server was locked just 30 minutes ago (writing time, not posting) the max pool for master+ seems to be 561 and for diamond- 325. It has to be later confirmed if the bonus pools indeed stopped growing both on client & website on that time.


Edit: Now 3 hours has passed since the 'locked' post and bonus pools have not increased both on client & website. --> I guess NA had clean lock too (except the originally announced time was incorrect (not 11:59 p.m. CEST but 11:59 p.m. PDT).

THx
EU 552
US 561
I check values for other servers and update the datafile.
If something is wrong again this season i will lock the client until next season starts
Save gaming: kill esport
skeldark
Profile Joined April 2010
Germany2223 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-10-25 11:06:47
October 25 2012 10:57 GMT
#1945
Save gaming: kill esport
skeldark
Profile Joined April 2010
Germany2223 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-10-25 11:07:36
October 25 2012 10:57 GMT
#1946
KR 550
Sea 551
CN 551
NA 561
EU 552
New Bnetdatabse File in 5 min.

EDIT:
New Bnetfile up. Restart the client to download it.
Report possible mistakes in new collected data here.

PS: sorry for tripe post something is wrong with the update...
Save gaming: kill esport
Nildawenn
Profile Joined April 2011
United States9 Posts
October 26 2012 05:43 GMT
#1947
You may have accounted for this already, but here's what my chart started looking like tonight...

hopefully this helps in some way.
[image loading]
skeldark
Profile Joined April 2010
Germany2223 Posts
October 26 2012 09:58 GMT
#1948
That does not look good.
Will calculate later per hand and check some graph if its only you who have trouble
Mark the last game of the one high as bad (61 i think, hard to see on pic)

Save gaming: kill esport
Nildawenn
Profile Joined April 2011
United States9 Posts
October 26 2012 20:09 GMT
#1949
Done, it looks a lot more reasonable now; though it would have been nice to have a 300pt mmr boost for no apparent reason. ^_^
ThreeHeartRun
Profile Joined October 2011
United States6 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-10-27 06:30:25
October 27 2012 06:28 GMT
#1950
May I ask why the MMR tool assumes that you're playing opponents 10 mmr above you if there isn't data suggesting otherwise? Wouldn't it be more accurate to take the average of surrounding data (in the case of past games) or projecting the "slope" of opponents you've been facing (in the case of no more recent games)? Maybe I'm missing something with how matchmaking varies?
skeldark
Profile Joined April 2010
Germany2223 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-10-27 10:39:41
October 27 2012 10:38 GMT
#1951
On October 27 2012 15:28 ThreeHeartRun wrote:
May I ask why the MMR tool assumes that you're playing opponents 10 mmr above you if there isn't data suggesting otherwise? Wouldn't it be more accurate to take the average of surrounding data (in the case of past games) or projecting the "slope" of opponents you've been facing (in the case of no more recent games)? Maybe I'm missing something with how matchmaking varies?


To make it clear its an lie.

If i put in an value that would make sense, you would think thats his real mmr.
If i show you wrong data to make it look better,
where is the diffrence between me and blizzard?
I have to put a value in there or i get problems with the graph.

Beside that the missing data is biased.
Opponents who are weaker than you have a way higher chance to produce bad data.
So the average opponent mmr out of the good games is to high.
Save gaming: kill esport
RobbyG
Profile Joined March 2012
United Kingdom10 Posts
October 27 2012 20:02 GMT
#1952
I would like to ask you about the league boundaries; how accurate are they?, cause right now im 150 pts above my line, and hope for next season, but at the start of the last season I was 80 pts above it and did not promote me. I dont wanna criticise, just want to find out.
Nothing is impossible; impossible itself says I m possible
InfCereal
Profile Joined December 2011
Canada1759 Posts
October 27 2012 20:08 GMT
#1953
On October 28 2012 05:02 RobbyG wrote:
I would like to ask you about the league boundaries; how accurate are they?, cause right now im 150 pts above my line, and hope for next season, but at the start of the last season I was 80 pts above it and did not promote me. I dont wanna criticise, just want to find out.


The lines are currently inaccurate for a certain range. (I'm not sure what that range is). Skeldark's been busy lately, and has the lines sitting at "zero". They're still a pretty good indicator of where you stand, and should be fixed eventually.
Cereal
skeldark
Profile Joined April 2010
Germany2223 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-10-28 23:48:30
October 28 2012 17:57 GMT
#1954
On October 28 2012 05:02 RobbyG wrote:
I would like to ask you about the league boundaries; how accurate are they?, cause right now im 150 pts above my line, and hope for next season, but at the start of the last season I was 80 pts above it and did not promote me. I dont wanna criticise, just want to find out.

depends on the line.
master is accurate. Diamand ok. Rest i cant really tell.
Dont forget blizzard dont promote if you get over the line,
They promote if you are stable over the line.
What is stable for blizzard? no one knows...

Promotion / demotion follow a lot of rules and are inaccurate them-self. So its hard to be accurate on something inaccurate.


On October 28 2012 05:08 InfCereal wrote:
Show nested quote +
On October 28 2012 05:02 RobbyG wrote:
I would like to ask you about the league boundaries; how accurate are they?, cause right now im 150 pts above my line, and hope for next season, but at the start of the last season I was 80 pts above it and did not promote me. I dont wanna criticise, just want to find out.


The lines are currently inaccurate for a certain range. (I'm not sure what that range is). Skeldark's been busy lately, and has the lines sitting at "zero". They're still a pretty good indicator of where you stand, and should be fixed eventually.


To hunt down an inaccurate line is kind of against the whole idea of this program.
I dont do all the work to be accurate just to guess when an inaccurate icon change.
So it has low priority on my todo list.
I kind of hoped people will go for the numbers i show and forget the whole fake "league icon" thing.
Looks like this will not happen

EDIT:is the data of the lock ok for your InfCereal?
Can it be that this is the first league lock without big bugs?
Save gaming: kill esport
leopardb
Profile Joined August 2012
Germany92 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-10-29 11:18:12
October 29 2012 09:25 GMT
#1955
Hi

I've been switching to Zerg lately and through learning the mechanics and all, lost quite a lot, excuses, excuses, blabla.

[image loading]

I just wanted to show my MMR graph since it looks weird that every 2-3 games i'm pitted against somebody way higher than i am, and belonging to my old league so to speak : i should have been already demoted to silver but, because of the ladder lock, stayed in gold. Now the high opponents begin to appear exactly after the ladder lock (i looked at the dates, and the first "high" dot belong to 26-10-2012, the other ones are before...).

Hope it helps improving your plugin !

Thx again for all :D

EDIT: updated the image to make my point clearer (hopefully)
don't worry, be happy
RobbyG
Profile Joined March 2012
United Kingdom10 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-10-29 13:52:38
October 29 2012 12:23 GMT
#1956
Show nested quote +
On October 28 2012 05:08 InfCereal wrote:
On October 28 2012 05:02 RobbyG wrote:
I would like to ask you about the league boundaries; how accurate are they?, cause right now im 150 pts above my line, and hope for next season, but at the start of the last season I was 80 pts above it and did not promote me. I dont wanna criticise, just want to find out.


The lines are currently inaccurate for a certain range. (I'm not sure what that range is). Skeldark's been busy lately, and has the lines sitting at "zero". They're still a pretty good indicator of where you stand, and should be fixed eventually.


To hunt down an inaccurate line is kind of against the whole idea of this program.
I dont do all the work to be accurate just to guess when an inaccurate icon change.
So it has low priority on my todo list.
I kind of hoped people will go for the numbers i show and forget the whole fake "league icon" thing.
Looks like this will not happen

EDIT:is the data of the lock ok for your InfCereal?
Can it be that this is the first league lock without big bugs?



I was using the tool only for comparing my rating with my previous ratings anyway, not even comparing it with other people's mmr, because I think it is good only for relative mmr; I was just curious, cause my goal is to go up one league at the begining of next season so if something has anything to do with finding out if I will, I thought I might ask about that something.


L.E. I had a huge drop and rise of my graph over 2 games, like 500 mmr difference, I tried marking the games as bad as you suggested, but it just made it worse, I don't really care about that gap cause I've already had a few and it comes back to normal after a few games, just wondering if the mark the game bad thing should work?
Nothing is impossible; impossible itself says I m possible
skeldark
Profile Joined April 2010
Germany2223 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-10-29 15:32:21
October 29 2012 15:29 GMT
#1957
@leopardb
you opponent is not really there. looks like not detected cap for me
@RobbyG
select "mark assumptions" in the settings. Than mark the Good Game in the wrong data field as bad.



i think something went wrong with the lock again
Anyway: only few days to the new season.
Hope they are lazy again and dont change the offsets.

I think about an change in opponent MMR. The fake +10 value is confusing for most.
I try to find a away to display better that i dont have data for the opponent in this games.
Save gaming: kill esport
korona
Profile Joined October 2009
1098 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-10-29 20:37:00
October 29 2012 20:21 GMT
#1958
On October 30 2012 00:29 skeldark wrote:
@leopardb
you opponent is not really there. looks like not detected cap for me
@RobbyG
select "mark assumptions" in the settings. Than mark the Good Game in the wrong data field as bad.



i think something went wrong with the lock again

If you mean leopardb:s example, then that has been happening to me on my both accounts the whole season - not only during the lock. When opponent MMR could have been calculated it has almost always been hovering around 100 MMR points over league border regardless of my own MMR (sometimes differs a lot). I was going to post about this after the season.

But with a quick check the lock period data seemed to be correct (at least all the adjusted points were calculated correctly that I checked).

On October 30 2012 00:29 skeldark wrote:
Anyway: only few days to the new season.
Hope they are lazy again and dont change the offsets.

I think about an change in opponent MMR. The fake +10 value is confusing for most.
I try to find a away to display better that i dont have data for the opponent in this games.

Or you could just force "mark assumptions" on as a default. Then it would be easy to deduce that they are dummy values.


Edit: Checked personal data from games during the lock period (54 NA games, 2 EU games) and all data seemed correct. Did not check opponent data.
skeldark
Profile Joined April 2010
Germany2223 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-10-29 20:56:51
October 29 2012 20:53 GMT
#1959
On October 30 2012 05:21 korona wrote:
Show nested quote +
On October 30 2012 00:29 skeldark wrote:
@leopardb
you opponent is not really there. looks like not detected cap for me
@RobbyG
select "mark assumptions" in the settings. Than mark the Good Game in the wrong data field as bad.



i think something went wrong with the lock again

If you mean leopardb:s example, then that has been happening to me on my both accounts the whole season - not only during the lock. When opponent MMR could have been calculated it has almost always been hovering around 100 MMR points over league border regardless of my own MMR (sometimes differs a lot). I was going to post about this after the season.

But with a quick check the lock period data seemed to be correct (at least all the adjusted points were calculated correctly that I checked).

Show nested quote +
On October 30 2012 00:29 skeldark wrote:
Anyway: only few days to the new season.
Hope they are lazy again and dont change the offsets.

I think about an change in opponent MMR. The fake +10 value is confusing for most.
I try to find a away to display better that i dont have data for the opponent in this games.

Or you could just force "mark assumptions" on as a default. Then it would be easy to deduce that they are dummy values.


Edit: Checked personal data from games during the lock period (54 NA games, 2 EU games) and all data seemed correct. Did not check opponent data.


Nice thanks.
Was afraid something is messed up again.
I will have a look if the cap-finder for the opponent have an bug.

Forcing "mark assumption" looks a little bit ugly.
If i dont show the dots the graph can get crazy on some filter settings. Its way easyer to work with complete data than with holes. Perhaps i just force assumptions for opponents and let the setting decide for the player.

If they change the offsets for next season i have to write an new archive updater to save the old data correct

EDIT: No its not a caped problem. Other way round!
The point is that the once 100mmr below you are caped, so you only see the once that are way stronger than you.
If i could calculate all the opponent data the graph would be all over the place.
So the problem is not that he shows them to high, the problem is that he can only show the very high once.

Save gaming: kill esport
kromlic
Profile Joined October 2012
2 Posts
October 30 2012 00:29 GMT
#1960
Still getting "FATALERROR Versionchecker: failed," despite my best attempts at finding an answer in this thread, my firewall, client, or otherwise. Any suggestions?

+ Show Spoiler +

17:22:32 MMR-Stats 7.0 17:22:32
--------INIT START--------
17:22:32 OK Encoding: OK
17:22:32 OK Loading DB
17:22:53 FATALERROR Versionchecker: failed
17:22:53 OK DB up to date!
17:22:53 OK Settings loaded!
17:22:53 OK Timeclient: Systemtime offset: 3 sec
17:22:53 OK Gamedata: 16 Games loaded.
17:22:53 Testing MemoryScanner ...OK
17:22:53 OK Triggers ready!
17:22:53 OK Gameobserver: ready!
17:23:14 FATALERROR Versionchecker: failed
17:23:14 OK: Program is up to date
17:23:14 --------INIT END--------
Prev 1 96 97 98 99 100 207 Next
Please log in or register to reply.
Live Events Refresh
Next event in 2h 51m
[ Submit Event ]
Live Streams
Refresh
StarCraft 2
Nina 145
StarCraft: Brood War
BeSt 270
Pusan 145
soO 78
sorry 58
Mind 32
Bale 19
ZergMaN 9
Dota 2
The International56416
singsing3176
Fuzer 399
NeuroSwarm152
League of Legends
JimRising 621
Counter-Strike
summit1g9090
Sick99
Other Games
m0e_tv586
WinterStarcraft533
Organizations
Other Games
BasetradeTV231
StarCraft: Brood War
UltimateBattle 15
[ Show 12 non-featured ]
StarCraft 2
• practicex 30
• AfreecaTV YouTube
• intothetv
• Kozan
• IndyKCrew
• Migwel
StarCraft: Brood War
• BSLYoutube
• STPLYoutube
• ZZZeroYoutube
Dota 2
• C_a_k_e 2272
• lizZardDota284
League of Legends
• Rush1888
Upcoming Events
Sparkling Tuna Cup
2h 51m
PiG Sty Festival
4h 51m
Maru vs Shameless
Reynor vs TriGGeR
IPSL
8h 51m
OSC
16h 51m
Afreeca Starleague
1d 2h
Rush vs Hm
Bisu vs Shuttle
WardiTV Weekly
1d 3h
The Patches Monday
1d 8h
Afreeca Starleague
2 days
Sharp vs Shinee
Action vs Shine
PiGosaur Cup
2 days
Replay Cast
3 days
[ Show More ]
Afreeca Starleague
3 days
BeSt vs Paralyze
Jaedong vs Speed
Kung Fu Cup
3 days
The PondCast
4 days
KCM Race Survival
4 days
Replay Cast
4 days
PiG Sty Festival
5 days
CranKy Ducklings
6 days
PiG Sty Festival
6 days
Liquipedia Results

Completed

Escore Tournament S3: W7
CranK Gathers Season 4: BW vs SC2 Team League
Eternal Conflict S2 Finale

Ongoing

KCM Race Survival 2026 Season 3
K-JUNGMAN
Acropolis #5
CSLAN 4
RSL Revival: Season 6
PiG Sty Festival 8.0
META DYMY #4
Esports World Cup 2026
Esports World Cup 2026: LCQ
BLAST Bounty Summer 2026
BLAST Bounty Summer Qual
Stake Ranked Episode 3
XSE Pro League 2026
IEM Cologne Major 2026

Upcoming

ASL Season 22
CSL Season 22: Qualifier 1
Escore Tournament S3: W8
CSL Season 22: Qualifier 2
CSL 2026 AUTUMN (S22)
Acropolis #5 - TRS
Blizzard Classic Cup 2026
HSC XXX
SC4ALL II: StarCraft II
Kung Fu Cup 2026 Grand Finals
RSL Offline Finals
Big Dog Cup 2026 Div 1
Stake Ranked Episode 5
PGL Masters Bucharest 2026
Thunderpick World Champ. '26
ESL Pro League Season 24
Stake Ranked Episode 4
1win Private Club #1
Logitech G Connect 2026
SL StarSeries Fall 2026
FISSURE Playground #5
BLAST Open Fall 2026
TLPD

1. ByuN
2. TY
3. Dark
4. Solar
5. Stats
6. Nerchio
7. sOs
8. soO
9. INnoVation
10. Elazer
1. Rain
2. Flash
3. EffOrt
4. Last
5. Bisu
6. Soulkey
7. Mini
8. Sharp
Sidebar Settings...

Advertising | Privacy Policy | Terms Of Use | Contact Us

Original banner artwork: Jim Warren
The contents of this webpage are copyright © 2026 TLnet. All Rights Reserved.