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On May 04 2012 06:17 teamhozac wrote:Show nested quote +On May 04 2012 06:09 neoghaleon55 wrote:On May 04 2012 05:05 zmansman17 wrote:On May 04 2012 04:32 Shiori wrote:On May 04 2012 03:50 Leth0 wrote:On May 04 2012 03:47 Hypemeup wrote:
Well, this means no more stargate play in PvZ and TvZ will be a weird(good zergs already have wicked Creepspread), Why would they want to fuck with TvZ, its really well balanced at the moment. I remember when they were testing 4 range roaches and people would say "well, this means no more fast expanding play in PvZ" Point is, none of you know wtf you are talking about. I remember when people said the Ghost nerf would make it useless against lategame Zerg. Oops, looks like they were right. Just because people over-estimated a change in BETA doesn't mean that bad ideas don't exist today. I can't see Terran lasting much longer. Queens with 50 energy is reprehensible. This sort of change is ridiculous and even takes away from the sort of decisions that make this a strategy game ( i.e. When do I drop that creep tumor versus when do I inject?). That element of uncertainty and decision-making is what makes a good RTS. I'm a Rank 1 Master Terran and if all of these changes come into effect, I will quit this game. It's hard enough studying for the LSAT while trying to stay active on Sc2, but this will indeed be the final straw. The International win rates of TvP and TvZ are, at this moment, artificially higher than what they should be. Since so many Terrans have dropped from the race as a result of their inability to win (having either switched races, stopped ladder matches, or quit the game entirely), the Win % of the remaining Terrans has increased, but again this increase is artificial. This increase comes from the reduction of the weaker Terran players who have left. The win rate of the remaining Terran players could have still gone down, or remained the same. People should re-read that bit if they do not understand it. The evidence of this can be seen on NA and EU where Terrans count for 1/4 of the race selections in the GM and Master Leagues. This was not the case a few months ago. Additionally, Terrans are now winning in the Early or Mid-Game stages from All-in or Semi-All-in strategies. They recognize, as MVP did versus Naniwa, that opting for a Mid-Late to Late Game versus Protoss is to put yourself at a severe disadvantage. If only David Kim had released Win % per unit of Time, so that it could be in evidence that Terran players are winning more early and increasingly less later on. But of course he did not do this, because to do so would illuminate the already glaring problem of late game TvP (which he notoriously left out). It's my belief that over the next few months, Protoss will adapt to these Early and Mid-Game strategies (with safer builds like the 2 Gate we have been seeing in the GSL), and they will stave off these attacks, grant a Late Game scenario and mop up the Terran as a result. The Korean Win rates for April have been released and you can see that Terran is taking a swift fall. Expect this to continue because there is no unit or strategy that Terran has not employed that will change this outcome. Terrans can move more to the Early and Mid-Game timings, which indeed they will. But after these options become known and exhausted, Terran is left with nowhere to go. Great Balance! Terran whiners need to stop perpetuating the myth that Terrans are disappearing from ladder,,, They are not! Here's a formal statement from blizzard themselves according to their statistics http://us.battle.net/sc2/en/forum/topic/4254523958?page=16#314 It is definitely NOT a myth http://www.sc2ranks.com/stats/league/all/1/al
You're serious? Oh, GOD FUCKING FORBID, Terrans are underrepresented by a few percentage points, they must be fleeing the game in droves!
What do you expect? All three races are NEVER going to equally represented, and that graph isn't so bad. Platinum is the only league where the numbers are a bit troublesome, the rest...whatever. There are a lot of factors that determine what race someone plays, not just balance.
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On May 04 2012 06:32 sieksdekciw wrote:Terrans are 5 to 10% less in any league but bronze. Your argument is invalid. http://sc2ranks.com/stats/league/all/1/allIf patches continue like this, terrans will fully disappear.
Actually this does appear to be true, that link is out of date, but the current GM league is less than 27% terran.
I have no idea why people think blizzard have better information about who is in GM than is publicly available. It's not a complex statistic, it's just adding up the number of players, you don't need inside info to do that.
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There are less terrans because it's the hardest race to play at decent levels, not the weakest.
Ofc it has to be because it has the most cost-effective units if we want a balanced game at the highest level.
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On May 04 2012 06:36 Willzzz wrote:Actually this does appear to be true, that link is out of date, but the current GM league is less than 27% terran. I have no idea why people think blizzard have better information about who is in GM than is publicly available. It's not a complex statistic, it's just adding up the number of players, you don't need inside info to do that.
Well on NA/KR I play a lot of terrans so they aren't disappearing at masters level that's for sure.
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On May 04 2012 01:21 Belha wrote:This may be too much for some poeple, but what the hell: Blizz should fking nerf all the general dps in the game for once. Then nerf all the anti ground 1a units (marauder, roaches, collosi). Then micro would be so much relevant 
Nerf banes too so they do friendly splash fire. If siege tanks do friendly fire, why don't banelings? And since one can Storm one's own units, Zerg should be able to fungal their own units.
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On May 04 2012 06:42 hanlonbro wrote:Show nested quote +On May 04 2012 01:21 Belha wrote:This may be too much for some poeple, but what the hell: Blizz should fking nerf all the general dps in the game for once. Then nerf all the anti ground 1a units (marauder, roaches, collosi). Then micro would be so much relevant Nerf banes too so they do friendly splash fire. If siege tanks do friendly fire, why don't banelings? And since one can Storm one's own units, Zerg should be able to fungal their own units.
maybe because banelings don't have 14 range? and how often do zergs even fungal their own units anyway?
lol
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On May 04 2012 06:36 Willzzz wrote:Actually this does appear to be true, that link is out of date, but the current GM league is less than 27% terran. I have no idea why people think blizzard have better information about who is in GM than is publicly available. It's not a complex statistic, it's just adding up the number of players, you don't need inside info to do that.
The Blizzard post is referencing the OP's (in that thread) second comment about the alleged decline of terran players across the board, not just in GM. I agree that GM statistics are much easier to track than global statistics about the game, e.g., including not just ladder games but custom melee games as well.
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Foreseeing interesting shifts in the zvz hatch first vs 14/14 balance.
And how will queens off creep do hunting down an OL now..? Hm...
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On May 04 2012 06:45 Flonomenalz wrote:Show nested quote +On May 04 2012 06:42 hanlonbro wrote:On May 04 2012 01:21 Belha wrote:This may be too much for some poeple, but what the hell: Blizz should fking nerf all the general dps in the game for once. Then nerf all the anti ground 1a units (marauder, roaches, collosi). Then micro would be so much relevant Nerf banes too so they do friendly splash fire. If siege tanks do friendly fire, why don't banelings? And since one can Storm one's own units, Zerg should be able to fungal their own units. maybe because banelings don't have 14 range? and how often do zergs even fungal their own units anyway? lol
Well at least make banelings more expensive. It's so easy to baneling bust or roach bane all-in. I am in high diamond and I play high master zergs and that's they do. Roaches need to have less range and cost more similar to marauder and stalkers. 12 minute roach maxes are ridiculously difficult to hold off.
I alternate between Terran and Protoss btw.
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On May 04 2012 06:47 Kambing wrote:Show nested quote +On May 04 2012 06:36 Willzzz wrote:On May 04 2012 06:32 sieksdekciw wrote:Terrans are 5 to 10% less in any league but bronze. Your argument is invalid. http://sc2ranks.com/stats/league/all/1/allIf patches continue like this, terrans will fully disappear. Actually this does appear to be true, that link is out of date, but the current GM league is less than 27% terran. I have no idea why people think blizzard have better information about who is in GM than is publicly available. It's not a complex statistic, it's just adding up the number of players, you don't need inside info to do that. The Blizzard post is referencing the OP's (in that thread) second comment about the alleged decline of terran players across the board, not just in GM. I agree that GM statistics are much easier to track than global statistics about the game, e.g., including not just ladder games but custom melee games as well.
They are also most likley to have largers gaps between the races, since it is only 200 players per region.
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On May 04 2012 06:47 Kambing wrote:Show nested quote +On May 04 2012 06:36 Willzzz wrote:On May 04 2012 06:32 sieksdekciw wrote:Terrans are 5 to 10% less in any league but bronze. Your argument is invalid. http://sc2ranks.com/stats/league/all/1/allIf patches continue like this, terrans will fully disappear. Actually this does appear to be true, that link is out of date, but the current GM league is less than 27% terran. I have no idea why people think blizzard have better information about who is in GM than is publicly available. It's not a complex statistic, it's just adding up the number of players, you don't need inside info to do that. The Blizzard post is referencing the OP's (in that thread) second comment about the alleged decline of terran players across the board, not just in GM. I agree that GM statistics are much easier to track than global statistics about the game, e.g., including not just ladder games but custom melee games as well.
Tracking statistics in other leagues is just as easy, it just takes longer. All you have to do is write a script to go through all the data and you can get it without having to ask Blizzard anything.
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where the hell does blizzard get these stats from? The ladder... "Protoss have been struggling at the "Top Pro Level"" Im pretty sure right now they are doing the best at the top pro level right now. Whether or not Protoss needs or doesn't need help they seem to be getting their information from places that actually doesnt matter and not actually look at Top level games
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On May 04 2012 06:51 hanlonbro wrote:Show nested quote +On May 04 2012 06:45 Flonomenalz wrote:On May 04 2012 06:42 hanlonbro wrote:On May 04 2012 01:21 Belha wrote:This may be too much for some poeple, but what the hell: Blizz should fking nerf all the general dps in the game for once. Then nerf all the anti ground 1a units (marauder, roaches, collosi). Then micro would be so much relevant Nerf banes too so they do friendly splash fire. If siege tanks do friendly fire, why don't banelings? And since one can Storm one's own units, Zerg should be able to fungal their own units. maybe because banelings don't have 14 range? and how often do zergs even fungal their own units anyway? lol Well at least make banelings more expensive. It's so easy to baneling bust or roach bane all-in. I am in high diamond and I play high master zergs and that's they do. Roaches need to have less range and cost more similar to marauder and stalkers. 12 minute roach maxes are ridiculously difficult to hold off. I alternate between Terran and Protoss btw.
You are walking a fine line friend. Some of your post could be interpreted as balance whine. Don't go to the dark side, you won't survive with your low post count.
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On May 04 2012 06:33 Kimaker wrote:Show nested quote +On May 04 2012 06:17 teamhozac wrote:On May 04 2012 06:09 neoghaleon55 wrote:On May 04 2012 05:05 zmansman17 wrote:On May 04 2012 04:32 Shiori wrote:On May 04 2012 03:50 Leth0 wrote:On May 04 2012 03:47 Hypemeup wrote:
Well, this means no more stargate play in PvZ and TvZ will be a weird(good zergs already have wicked Creepspread), Why would they want to fuck with TvZ, its really well balanced at the moment. I remember when they were testing 4 range roaches and people would say "well, this means no more fast expanding play in PvZ" Point is, none of you know wtf you are talking about. I remember when people said the Ghost nerf would make it useless against lategame Zerg. Oops, looks like they were right. Just because people over-estimated a change in BETA doesn't mean that bad ideas don't exist today. I can't see Terran lasting much longer. Queens with 50 energy is reprehensible. This sort of change is ridiculous and even takes away from the sort of decisions that make this a strategy game ( i.e. When do I drop that creep tumor versus when do I inject?). That element of uncertainty and decision-making is what makes a good RTS. I'm a Rank 1 Master Terran and if all of these changes come into effect, I will quit this game. It's hard enough studying for the LSAT while trying to stay active on Sc2, but this will indeed be the final straw. The International win rates of TvP and TvZ are, at this moment, artificially higher than what they should be. Since so many Terrans have dropped from the race as a result of their inability to win (having either switched races, stopped ladder matches, or quit the game entirely), the Win % of the remaining Terrans has increased, but again this increase is artificial. This increase comes from the reduction of the weaker Terran players who have left. The win rate of the remaining Terran players could have still gone down, or remained the same. People should re-read that bit if they do not understand it. The evidence of this can be seen on NA and EU where Terrans count for 1/4 of the race selections in the GM and Master Leagues. This was not the case a few months ago. Additionally, Terrans are now winning in the Early or Mid-Game stages from All-in or Semi-All-in strategies. They recognize, as MVP did versus Naniwa, that opting for a Mid-Late to Late Game versus Protoss is to put yourself at a severe disadvantage. If only David Kim had released Win % per unit of Time, so that it could be in evidence that Terran players are winning more early and increasingly less later on. But of course he did not do this, because to do so would illuminate the already glaring problem of late game TvP (which he notoriously left out). It's my belief that over the next few months, Protoss will adapt to these Early and Mid-Game strategies (with safer builds like the 2 Gate we have been seeing in the GSL), and they will stave off these attacks, grant a Late Game scenario and mop up the Terran as a result. The Korean Win rates for April have been released and you can see that Terran is taking a swift fall. Expect this to continue because there is no unit or strategy that Terran has not employed that will change this outcome. Terrans can move more to the Early and Mid-Game timings, which indeed they will. But after these options become known and exhausted, Terran is left with nowhere to go. Great Balance! Terran whiners need to stop perpetuating the myth that Terrans are disappearing from ladder,,, They are not! Here's a formal statement from blizzard themselves according to their statistics http://us.battle.net/sc2/en/forum/topic/4254523958?page=16#314 It is definitely NOT a myth http://www.sc2ranks.com/stats/league/all/1/al You're serious? Oh, GOD FUCKING FORBID, Terrans are underrepresented by a few percentage points, they must be fleeing the game in droves! What do you expect? All three races are NEVER going to equally represented, and that graph isn't so bad. Platinum is the only league where the numbers are a bit troublesome, the rest...whatever. There are a lot of factors that determine what race someone plays, not just balance.
You hypocrite. If a terran wins a tournament, people like you start crying 'Terran is imba omg omg' and eventhough tournaments are dominated by tosses and last gsl final was zvp, when we complain that casual players disappear, we are not allowed to complain? For that matter, how many tournaments were taken by a foreigner terran? 1? Yeah, that figures, cause terran is so imba. God fucking forbid you play terran someday and I guarantee you that if you are a master toss, you probably have the skill to be at most a plat/low diamond terran.
Edit. Saw your region, which is reputably the region with the worst players. Maybe terrans still stick there cause other players are that bad and can't beat them. However, in other regions you have to be a MONSTER with at least 10% more the skill than your toss and zerg opponent to beat him.
I argue there is slight imbalance of 10% in favor in zerg and toss according to statistics, which basically means that a terran who wins a game against equally ranked toss or zerg opponent is actually 10% or more better than his opponent if the game was balanced. What do you argue? You argue that a few percentage points are not a big deal. How many percentages is going to convince you that you are utterly wrong?
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On May 04 2012 06:39 Salteador Neo wrote:
There are less terrans because it's the hardest race to play at decent levels, not the weakest.
Ofc it has to be because it has the most cost-effective units if we want a balanced game at the highest level.
Funny how the "it's okay because it's balanced at pro levels" only comes from zergs and protoss players. The balance of this game has gone so far down the shitter. You have grandmaster protoss players who have never expanded, ever, while you have terran players who are so motherfucking good but are still struggling in mid masters because they insist on playing straight up against protoss players who manage to control their drooling and roll their face across the keyboard.
User was warned for this post
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Globally, all matchups below pro-level are pretty balanced.
We aren’t currently seeing any problems with non-pro-level matchups, but as always, we’re watching them very carefully on a weekly basis.
We want changes we're making to balance at this time to be small, strategic adjustments that will only affect pro-level play.
Zerg at the pro-level are struggling a bit to scout effectively in the early game.
This is tricky to balance, because we do not want to hinder sneaky strategies or tactical early play vs. zerg.
Our goal here is to improve zerg scouting, but not to the point where other races feel like they can’t or shouldn’t make any strategic early moves vs. zerg.
Zerg at the pro-level are slightly too susceptible to all-in rushes.
We want to make creep spread a little bit easier to counter hellions in ZvT.
We want to make the general zerg defense slightly stronger in the early game.
Protoss at the pro-level are doing well, but not at the very top of the pro-level.
At this time, we’re keeping a very close eye on this, and preparing to make any necessary adjustments.
We are closely watching TvP to see if the offensive capabilities of terran in the early/mid game becomes too much, or if late game strength of protoss becomes too much.
We aren’t making a change to affect this now, but it’s very near the top of our list of things we’re watching.
None of what blizzard have written makes sense.
They say they are only concerned about pro play, yet are asking for feedback from average players.
The overlord thing kinda makes sense, but perhaps there is a link between scouting and dying to early rushes? I mean DUH.
As a sub point under all-in rushes they include hellions, is this the 3 factory variant, or is standard reactor hellion all-in according to Blizzard?
The very top protoss are not performing well? Are they serious???
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On May 04 2012 06:51 hanlonbro wrote:Show nested quote +On May 04 2012 06:45 Flonomenalz wrote:On May 04 2012 06:42 hanlonbro wrote:On May 04 2012 01:21 Belha wrote:This may be too much for some poeple, but what the hell: Blizz should fking nerf all the general dps in the game for once. Then nerf all the anti ground 1a units (marauder, roaches, collosi). Then micro would be so much relevant Nerf banes too so they do friendly splash fire. If siege tanks do friendly fire, why don't banelings? And since one can Storm one's own units, Zerg should be able to fungal their own units. maybe because banelings don't have 14 range? and how often do zergs even fungal their own units anyway? lol Well at least make banelings more expensive. It's so easy to baneling bust or roach bane all-in. I am in high diamond and I play high master zergs and that's they do. Roaches need to have less range and cost more similar to marauder and stalkers. 12 minute roach maxes are ridiculously difficult to hold off. I alternate between Terran and Protoss btw.
Ye I'll just lose everytime someone goes mech just because you can't forcefield properly, and if u have problems with that then maybe you should stick to one race. Also I don't want to have the most supply inefficient unit in the game expensive aswell.
It's posts like that which make me think that natural selection never existed
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On May 04 2012 06:57 EmilA wrote:Show nested quote +On May 04 2012 06:39 Salteador Neo wrote:
There are less terrans because it's the hardest race to play at decent levels, not the weakest.
Ofc it has to be because it has the most cost-effective units if we want a balanced game at the highest level. Funny how the "it's okay because it's balanced at pro levels" only comes from zergs and protoss players. The balance of this game has gone so far down the shitter. You have grandmaster protoss players who have never expanded, ever, while you have terran players who are so motherfucking good but are still struggling in mid masters because they insist on playing straight up against protoss players who manage to control their drooling and roll their face across the keyboard.
I can guarantee you that there are more Terran 1 basers in EU GM than Protoss..... 1 basing in PvP kinda doesn't count for me. And no midmaster terrans are not "motherfucking good" lol. I have played like 50 Terran games in my life and I can easily win vs midmasters players lol especially 1 basing in TvP as Terran is like the easiest method to win a game without much effort.
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On May 04 2012 06:56 sieksdekciw wrote:Show nested quote +On May 04 2012 06:33 Kimaker wrote:On May 04 2012 06:17 teamhozac wrote:On May 04 2012 06:09 neoghaleon55 wrote:On May 04 2012 05:05 zmansman17 wrote:On May 04 2012 04:32 Shiori wrote:On May 04 2012 03:50 Leth0 wrote:On May 04 2012 03:47 Hypemeup wrote:
Well, this means no more stargate play in PvZ and TvZ will be a weird(good zergs already have wicked Creepspread), Why would they want to fuck with TvZ, its really well balanced at the moment. I remember when they were testing 4 range roaches and people would say "well, this means no more fast expanding play in PvZ" Point is, none of you know wtf you are talking about. I remember when people said the Ghost nerf would make it useless against lategame Zerg. Oops, looks like they were right. Just because people over-estimated a change in BETA doesn't mean that bad ideas don't exist today. I can't see Terran lasting much longer. Queens with 50 energy is reprehensible. This sort of change is ridiculous and even takes away from the sort of decisions that make this a strategy game ( i.e. When do I drop that creep tumor versus when do I inject?). That element of uncertainty and decision-making is what makes a good RTS. I'm a Rank 1 Master Terran and if all of these changes come into effect, I will quit this game. It's hard enough studying for the LSAT while trying to stay active on Sc2, but this will indeed be the final straw. The International win rates of TvP and TvZ are, at this moment, artificially higher than what they should be. Since so many Terrans have dropped from the race as a result of their inability to win (having either switched races, stopped ladder matches, or quit the game entirely), the Win % of the remaining Terrans has increased, but again this increase is artificial. This increase comes from the reduction of the weaker Terran players who have left. The win rate of the remaining Terran players could have still gone down, or remained the same. People should re-read that bit if they do not understand it. The evidence of this can be seen on NA and EU where Terrans count for 1/4 of the race selections in the GM and Master Leagues. This was not the case a few months ago. Additionally, Terrans are now winning in the Early or Mid-Game stages from All-in or Semi-All-in strategies. They recognize, as MVP did versus Naniwa, that opting for a Mid-Late to Late Game versus Protoss is to put yourself at a severe disadvantage. If only David Kim had released Win % per unit of Time, so that it could be in evidence that Terran players are winning more early and increasingly less later on. But of course he did not do this, because to do so would illuminate the already glaring problem of late game TvP (which he notoriously left out). It's my belief that over the next few months, Protoss will adapt to these Early and Mid-Game strategies (with safer builds like the 2 Gate we have been seeing in the GSL), and they will stave off these attacks, grant a Late Game scenario and mop up the Terran as a result. The Korean Win rates for April have been released and you can see that Terran is taking a swift fall. Expect this to continue because there is no unit or strategy that Terran has not employed that will change this outcome. Terrans can move more to the Early and Mid-Game timings, which indeed they will. But after these options become known and exhausted, Terran is left with nowhere to go. Great Balance! Terran whiners need to stop perpetuating the myth that Terrans are disappearing from ladder,,, They are not! Here's a formal statement from blizzard themselves according to their statistics http://us.battle.net/sc2/en/forum/topic/4254523958?page=16#314 It is definitely NOT a myth http://www.sc2ranks.com/stats/league/all/1/al You're serious? Oh, GOD FUCKING FORBID, Terrans are underrepresented by a few percentage points, they must be fleeing the game in droves! What do you expect? All three races are NEVER going to equally represented, and that graph isn't so bad. Platinum is the only league where the numbers are a bit troublesome, the rest...whatever. There are a lot of factors that determine what race someone plays, not just balance. You hypocrite. If a terran wins a tournament, people like you start crying 'Terran is imba omg omg' and eventhough tournaments are dominated by tosses and last gsl final was zvp, when we complain that casual players disappear, we are not allowed to? For that matter, how many tournaments were taken by a foreigner terran? 1? Yeah, that figures, cause terran is so imba. God fucking forbid you play terran someday and I guarantee you that if you are a master toss, you probably have the skill to be at most a plat/low diamond terran.
Tell you what, post some replays of your losing to there terrible protoss players that are so "unskilled" that they should be two leagues below you. We can review them and tell you exactly why that is not true and how you lost due to mistakes in gameplay. Or would you rather continue believing that you are losing to them because the race requires no skill at all?
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On May 04 2012 06:57 EmilA wrote:Show nested quote +On May 04 2012 06:39 Salteador Neo wrote:
There are less terrans because it's the hardest race to play at decent levels, not the weakest.
Ofc it has to be because it has the most cost-effective units if we want a balanced game at the highest level. Funny how the "it's okay because it's balanced at pro levels" only comes from zergs and protoss players. The balance of this game has gone so far down the shitter. You have grandmaster protoss players who have never expanded, ever, while you have terran players who are so motherfucking good but are still struggling in mid masters because they insist on playing straight up against protoss players who manage to control their drooling and roll their face across the keyboard.
I don't remember which interview but LG-IM_Mvp said that it's not the game, it's the player. And he is a terran player, he does not whine.
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EPT
