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On May 04 2012 06:26 Plansix wrote:Show nested quote +On May 04 2012 06:17 teamhozac wrote:On May 04 2012 06:09 neoghaleon55 wrote:On May 04 2012 05:05 zmansman17 wrote:On May 04 2012 04:32 Shiori wrote:On May 04 2012 03:50 Leth0 wrote:On May 04 2012 03:47 Hypemeup wrote:
Well, this means no more stargate play in PvZ and TvZ will be a weird(good zergs already have wicked Creepspread), Why would they want to fuck with TvZ, its really well balanced at the moment. I remember when they were testing 4 range roaches and people would say "well, this means no more fast expanding play in PvZ" Point is, none of you know wtf you are talking about. I remember when people said the Ghost nerf would make it useless against lategame Zerg. Oops, looks like they were right. Just because people over-estimated a change in BETA doesn't mean that bad ideas don't exist today. I can't see Terran lasting much longer. Queens with 50 energy is reprehensible. This sort of change is ridiculous and even takes away from the sort of decisions that make this a strategy game ( i.e. When do I drop that creep tumor versus when do I inject?). That element of uncertainty and decision-making is what makes a good RTS. I'm a Rank 1 Master Terran and if all of these changes come into effect, I will quit this game. It's hard enough studying for the LSAT while trying to stay active on Sc2, but this will indeed be the final straw. The International win rates of TvP and TvZ are, at this moment, artificially higher than what they should be. Since so many Terrans have dropped from the race as a result of their inability to win (having either switched races, stopped ladder matches, or quit the game entirely), the Win % of the remaining Terrans has increased, but again this increase is artificial. This increase comes from the reduction of the weaker Terran players who have left. The win rate of the remaining Terran players could have still gone down, or remained the same. People should re-read that bit if they do not understand it. The evidence of this can be seen on NA and EU where Terrans count for 1/4 of the race selections in the GM and Master Leagues. This was not the case a few months ago. Additionally, Terrans are now winning in the Early or Mid-Game stages from All-in or Semi-All-in strategies. They recognize, as MVP did versus Naniwa, that opting for a Mid-Late to Late Game versus Protoss is to put yourself at a severe disadvantage. If only David Kim had released Win % per unit of Time, so that it could be in evidence that Terran players are winning more early and increasingly less later on. But of course he did not do this, because to do so would illuminate the already glaring problem of late game TvP (which he notoriously left out). It's my belief that over the next few months, Protoss will adapt to these Early and Mid-Game strategies (with safer builds like the 2 Gate we have been seeing in the GSL), and they will stave off these attacks, grant a Late Game scenario and mop up the Terran as a result. The Korean Win rates for April have been released and you can see that Terran is taking a swift fall. Expect this to continue because there is no unit or strategy that Terran has not employed that will change this outcome. Terrans can move more to the Early and Mid-Game timings, which indeed they will. But after these options become known and exhausted, Terran is left with nowhere to go. Great Balance! Terran whiners need to stop perpetuating the myth that Terrans are disappearing from ladder,,, They are not! Here's a formal statement from blizzard themselves according to their statistics http://us.battle.net/sc2/en/forum/topic/4254523958?page=16#314 It is definitely NOT a myth http://www.sc2ranks.com/stats/league/all/1/al Yes I am sure that SC2 Ranks has better information that Blizzard and Blizzard is just lying. And MVP said that he punished Naniwa for being greedy, which is what Koreans do. Punish greed.
It's funny how people hold on to anything that comes up regardless of it's legitimacy to prove their point, that post on bnet only generated a lot of controversy and the "community manager" (as in random board mod) disappeared after saying that without answering any further questions, terrans are disappearing, when a lot of people give their anecdotal evidences, they stop being anecdotal.
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On May 04 2012 06:57 EmilA wrote:Show nested quote +On May 04 2012 06:39 Salteador Neo wrote:
There are less terrans because it's the hardest race to play at decent levels, not the weakest.
Ofc it has to be because it has the most cost-effective units if we want a balanced game at the highest level. Funny how the "it's okay because it's balanced at pro levels" only comes from zergs and protoss players. The balance of this game has gone so far down the shitter. You have grandmaster protoss players who have never expanded, ever, while you have terran players who are so motherfucking good but are still struggling in mid masters because they insist on playing straight up against protoss players who manage to control their drooling and roll their face across the keyboard.
Getting into GM off of stupid, cheesy builds has been around since GM was a league. We also had a grand masters zerg who got there off of 6 pooling? I am sure there is some really stupid, 1 base all in that terrans can do involving SCVs and marines that could get into GM as well. It has nothing to do with race balance, it is just the way the ladder works. Dumb, coin flip builds that get you fast wins can get you easy ladder points and MMR.
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overlord speed boost , no way, their main function is not scouting but increasing supply (let's make supply depots and pylons fly too what the hell  )
queen starting with 50 energy , might be too much
observers production time is just fine.
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On May 04 2012 07:01 hanlonbro wrote:Show nested quote +On May 04 2012 06:57 EmilA wrote:On May 04 2012 06:39 Salteador Neo wrote:
There are less terrans because it's the hardest race to play at decent levels, not the weakest.
Ofc it has to be because it has the most cost-effective units if we want a balanced game at the highest level. Funny how the "it's okay because it's balanced at pro levels" only comes from zergs and protoss players. The balance of this game has gone so far down the shitter. You have grandmaster protoss players who have never expanded, ever, while you have terran players who are so motherfucking good but are still struggling in mid masters because they insist on playing straight up against protoss players who manage to control their drooling and roll their face across the keyboard. I don't remember which interview but LG-IM_Mvp said that it's not the game, it's the player. And he is a terran player, he does not whine.
MVP also said terran was the weakest race in an interview with Artosis. BAMSHEBLAM.
Back to some sort of main topic, I really dont see these changes being so major that we need a test map to check them out. It's really so minor and just changes how queens allocate energy really that changed. Just sad , my race doesn't get a buff 
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Stephano also said that protoss need a buff 
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Guys, don't waste your time with plansix. He's already admitted in various topics that the supposed Terran shortage is actually just a huge conspiracy by Terrans to get buffed.
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To contribute with my opinion, I believe that Queens should have a lower ground to air and ground to ground DPS. Blizz might also want to make Queens more expensive and take longer to make if they want them to have +25 energy.
And for the overlord thing, Blizz should just keep it as it is. It's perfect right now. Well a little bit slower wouldn't hurt since they are flying units, which means they have insane vision as it stands.
On May 04 2012 07:09 scsnow wrote:Stephano also said that protoss need a buff
Stephano is a smart guy and he is correct. Protoss needs Void Ray speed back as well as +25 sentry energy if Queens are allowed to get energy. What can sentries do early with that energy? Guardian Shield? Lol. Nobody Guardian Shields that early in the game.
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They are all good ideas!! Yeah but the queen buff its too much IMO and the obs seem to be fine.. ( i hate blink stalkers) .. The overlord movement buff seems good tho :D
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On May 04 2012 07:04 IshinShishi wrote:Show nested quote +On May 04 2012 06:26 Plansix wrote:On May 04 2012 06:17 teamhozac wrote:On May 04 2012 06:09 neoghaleon55 wrote:On May 04 2012 05:05 zmansman17 wrote:On May 04 2012 04:32 Shiori wrote:On May 04 2012 03:50 Leth0 wrote:On May 04 2012 03:47 Hypemeup wrote:
Well, this means no more stargate play in PvZ and TvZ will be a weird(good zergs already have wicked Creepspread), Why would they want to fuck with TvZ, its really well balanced at the moment. I remember when they were testing 4 range roaches and people would say "well, this means no more fast expanding play in PvZ" Point is, none of you know wtf you are talking about. I remember when people said the Ghost nerf would make it useless against lategame Zerg. Oops, looks like they were right. Just because people over-estimated a change in BETA doesn't mean that bad ideas don't exist today. I can't see Terran lasting much longer. Queens with 50 energy is reprehensible. This sort of change is ridiculous and even takes away from the sort of decisions that make this a strategy game ( i.e. When do I drop that creep tumor versus when do I inject?). That element of uncertainty and decision-making is what makes a good RTS. I'm a Rank 1 Master Terran and if all of these changes come into effect, I will quit this game. It's hard enough studying for the LSAT while trying to stay active on Sc2, but this will indeed be the final straw. The International win rates of TvP and TvZ are, at this moment, artificially higher than what they should be. Since so many Terrans have dropped from the race as a result of their inability to win (having either switched races, stopped ladder matches, or quit the game entirely), the Win % of the remaining Terrans has increased, but again this increase is artificial. This increase comes from the reduction of the weaker Terran players who have left. The win rate of the remaining Terran players could have still gone down, or remained the same. People should re-read that bit if they do not understand it. The evidence of this can be seen on NA and EU where Terrans count for 1/4 of the race selections in the GM and Master Leagues. This was not the case a few months ago. Additionally, Terrans are now winning in the Early or Mid-Game stages from All-in or Semi-All-in strategies. They recognize, as MVP did versus Naniwa, that opting for a Mid-Late to Late Game versus Protoss is to put yourself at a severe disadvantage. If only David Kim had released Win % per unit of Time, so that it could be in evidence that Terran players are winning more early and increasingly less later on. But of course he did not do this, because to do so would illuminate the already glaring problem of late game TvP (which he notoriously left out). It's my belief that over the next few months, Protoss will adapt to these Early and Mid-Game strategies (with safer builds like the 2 Gate we have been seeing in the GSL), and they will stave off these attacks, grant a Late Game scenario and mop up the Terran as a result. The Korean Win rates for April have been released and you can see that Terran is taking a swift fall. Expect this to continue because there is no unit or strategy that Terran has not employed that will change this outcome. Terrans can move more to the Early and Mid-Game timings, which indeed they will. But after these options become known and exhausted, Terran is left with nowhere to go. Great Balance! Terran whiners need to stop perpetuating the myth that Terrans are disappearing from ladder,,, They are not! Here's a formal statement from blizzard themselves according to their statistics http://us.battle.net/sc2/en/forum/topic/4254523958?page=16#314 It is definitely NOT a myth http://www.sc2ranks.com/stats/league/all/1/al Yes I am sure that SC2 Ranks has better information that Blizzard and Blizzard is just lying. And MVP said that he punished Naniwa for being greedy, which is what Koreans do. Punish greed. It's funny how people hold on to anything that comes up regardless of their legitimacy to prove their point, that post on bnet only generated a lot of controversy and the "community manager" (as in random board mod) disappeared after saying that without answering any further questions, terrans are disappearing, when a lot of people give their anecdotal evidences, they stop being anecdotal.
Wait, so your telling us that Blizzard is incorrect about the number of terrans playing on the ladder because there is a lot of anecdotal evidence out there? If both claims are not backed up by any form of evidence, are they not both equally untrustworthy? And if the people claiming that terrans are disappearing because the race is underpowered, can we be sure they do not have ulterior motive for saying that?
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On May 04 2012 07:07 HomeWorld wrote:overlord speed boost , no way, their main function is not scouting but increasing supply (let's make supply depots and pylons fly too what the hell )queen starting with 50 energy , might be too much observers production time is just fine.
Only if my overlords can warp shit in too D;
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On May 04 2012 07:07 Wasteweiser wrote:Show nested quote +On May 04 2012 07:01 hanlonbro wrote:On May 04 2012 06:57 EmilA wrote:On May 04 2012 06:39 Salteador Neo wrote:
There are less terrans because it's the hardest race to play at decent levels, not the weakest.
Ofc it has to be because it has the most cost-effective units if we want a balanced game at the highest level. Funny how the "it's okay because it's balanced at pro levels" only comes from zergs and protoss players. The balance of this game has gone so far down the shitter. You have grandmaster protoss players who have never expanded, ever, while you have terran players who are so motherfucking good but are still struggling in mid masters because they insist on playing straight up against protoss players who manage to control their drooling and roll their face across the keyboard. I don't remember which interview but LG-IM_Mvp said that it's not the game, it's the player. And he is a terran player, he does not whine. MVP also said terran was the weakest race in an interview with Artosis. BAMSHEBLAM. Back to some sort of main topic, I really dont see these changes being so major that we need a test map to check them out. It's really so minor and just changes how queens allocate energy really that changed. Just sad , my race doesn't get a buff
MVP said that Terran was weak on that particular set of maps that were being played at that time. MVP doesn´t balance whine Hero, MVP and Parting have said that TvP the better player wins.
Stop twisting words to fit your.... agenda?
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Terrans saying they are having too hard of a time beating the other two races without doing all-ins or extreme aggression earlier.
Protoss/Zerg telling the terrans they're just bad and that their race is way too strong.
Productive thread It's a shame that terrans don't get the option of playing the way they want to and instead have to play the way the other two races tell them to do ><
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Stop it, you're using facts to cloud the issue. Didn't you know that terrans are fleeing the ladder, even though Blizzard, who owns the ladder, said it is not true? Also didn't you know that terrans can't win major tournaments, except the tournaments they have already won?
Quick, post more links to SC2 ranks that show slightly lower terran numbers than the other races.
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That queen change looks sick!
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played a game as zerg, the queen thing is ridiculous.
say you go hatch first, that's an immediate 2 creep tumors and injects. then you make another queen and suddenly you have 4+ creep tumors going out on the map insanely early, before your opponent can even have detection.
will be very broken if this makes it through. guess I'm fine with the overlord / obs change though.
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On May 04 2012 07:22 -Exalt- wrote:
played a game as zerg, the queen thing is ridiculous.
say you go hatch first, that's an immediate 2 creep tumors and injects. then you make another queen and suddenly you have 4+ creep tumors going out on the map insanely early, before your opponent can even have detection.
will be very broken if this makes it through. guess I'm fine with the overlord / obs change though.
Do you know how fast Terrans can get scans?
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On May 04 2012 07:17 Talack wrote:Terrans saying they are having too hard of a time beating the other two races without doing all-ins or extreme aggression earlier. Protoss/Zerg telling the terrans they're just bad and that their race is way too strong. Productive thread It's a shame that terrans don't get the option of playing the way they want to and instead have to play the way the other two races tell them to do ><
I know, as a protoss I have the same problem with zergs. I want to play a long macro game with almost no early agression and they keep building like 90 drones and rolling me over. I hate that zergs tell me the way I am required to play the game.
But to the topic at hand. I think everything looks reasonable, but not ground breaking. I am willing to see what queen buff does and I think creep is a good way to allow zerg more warning for early pushes without giving them to much.
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yes but wasting more scans is ridiculous.
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On May 04 2012 07:23 hanlonbro wrote:Show nested quote +On May 04 2012 07:22 -Exalt- wrote:
played a game as zerg, the queen thing is ridiculous.
say you go hatch first, that's an immediate 2 creep tumors and injects. then you make another queen and suddenly you have 4+ creep tumors going out on the map insanely early, before your opponent can even have detection.
will be very broken if this makes it through. guess I'm fine with the overlord / obs change though. Do you know how fast Terrans can get scans?
Do you know that if you scan more than once in the first 7 minutes, you're insanely behind on econ?
DTs and Banshees aside of course.
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EPT
