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On May 04 2012 07:34 hanlonbro wrote:Show nested quote +On May 04 2012 07:33 Ballistixz wrote:On May 04 2012 07:09 scsnow wrote:Stephano also said that protoss need a buff  stephano also loses to good toss players like MC or any korean toss for that matter. its best to take his words with a grain of salt, he is overly cocky and that always bites him in the ass in the end. At least he doesn't declare himself as having Top 3 control then proceeds to going 1-7 in a premier league.
At least he doesn't sit here typing insults to players who have won big tournaments, are just average people who are good at games, and have been suddenly forced into being celebrities. He being Stephano of course. Most of the top pro gamers are cocky. It bites a lot of them in the ass. That goes for any sport. It shouldn't be seen as an insult.
Oh and I am glad for Zerg that they will likely get faster OL's but that increased creep spread would screw over protoss air harass early on... I can't think of another use for Protoss air on the professional level so that would be sad.
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On May 04 2012 07:51 hanlonbro wrote:
If Queens will be allowed to have +25 then I think that so should Orbitals and Nexus.
edit. not the first nexus at the start, but any additional ones
That's actually a good idea. I think terrans should be able to scout and keep up in eco at the same time, like P/Z can.
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On May 04 2012 06:56 sieksdekciw wrote:Show nested quote +On May 04 2012 06:33 Kimaker wrote:On May 04 2012 06:17 teamhozac wrote:On May 04 2012 06:09 neoghaleon55 wrote:On May 04 2012 05:05 zmansman17 wrote:On May 04 2012 04:32 Shiori wrote:On May 04 2012 03:50 Leth0 wrote:On May 04 2012 03:47 Hypemeup wrote:
Well, this means no more stargate play in PvZ and TvZ will be a weird(good zergs already have wicked Creepspread), Why would they want to fuck with TvZ, its really well balanced at the moment. I remember when they were testing 4 range roaches and people would say "well, this means no more fast expanding play in PvZ" Point is, none of you know wtf you are talking about. I remember when people said the Ghost nerf would make it useless against lategame Zerg. Oops, looks like they were right. Just because people over-estimated a change in BETA doesn't mean that bad ideas don't exist today. I can't see Terran lasting much longer. Queens with 50 energy is reprehensible. This sort of change is ridiculous and even takes away from the sort of decisions that make this a strategy game ( i.e. When do I drop that creep tumor versus when do I inject?). That element of uncertainty and decision-making is what makes a good RTS. I'm a Rank 1 Master Terran and if all of these changes come into effect, I will quit this game. It's hard enough studying for the LSAT while trying to stay active on Sc2, but this will indeed be the final straw. The International win rates of TvP and TvZ are, at this moment, artificially higher than what they should be. Since so many Terrans have dropped from the race as a result of their inability to win (having either switched races, stopped ladder matches, or quit the game entirely), the Win % of the remaining Terrans has increased, but again this increase is artificial. This increase comes from the reduction of the weaker Terran players who have left. The win rate of the remaining Terran players could have still gone down, or remained the same. People should re-read that bit if they do not understand it. The evidence of this can be seen on NA and EU where Terrans count for 1/4 of the race selections in the GM and Master Leagues. This was not the case a few months ago. Additionally, Terrans are now winning in the Early or Mid-Game stages from All-in or Semi-All-in strategies. They recognize, as MVP did versus Naniwa, that opting for a Mid-Late to Late Game versus Protoss is to put yourself at a severe disadvantage. If only David Kim had released Win % per unit of Time, so that it could be in evidence that Terran players are winning more early and increasingly less later on. But of course he did not do this, because to do so would illuminate the already glaring problem of late game TvP (which he notoriously left out). It's my belief that over the next few months, Protoss will adapt to these Early and Mid-Game strategies (with safer builds like the 2 Gate we have been seeing in the GSL), and they will stave off these attacks, grant a Late Game scenario and mop up the Terran as a result. The Korean Win rates for April have been released and you can see that Terran is taking a swift fall. Expect this to continue because there is no unit or strategy that Terran has not employed that will change this outcome. Terrans can move more to the Early and Mid-Game timings, which indeed they will. But after these options become known and exhausted, Terran is left with nowhere to go. Great Balance! Terran whiners need to stop perpetuating the myth that Terrans are disappearing from ladder,,, They are not! Here's a formal statement from blizzard themselves according to their statistics http://us.battle.net/sc2/en/forum/topic/4254523958?page=16#314 It is definitely NOT a myth http://www.sc2ranks.com/stats/league/all/1/al You're serious? Oh, GOD FUCKING FORBID, Terrans are underrepresented by a few percentage points, they must be fleeing the game in droves! What do you expect? All three races are NEVER going to equally represented, and that graph isn't so bad. Platinum is the only league where the numbers are a bit troublesome, the rest...whatever. There are a lot of factors that determine what race someone plays, not just balance. You hypocrite. If a terran wins a tournament, people like you start crying 'Terran is imba omg omg' and eventhough tournaments are dominated by tosses and last gsl final was zvp, when we complain that casual players disappear, we are not allowed to complain? For that matter, how many tournaments were taken by a foreigner terran? 1? Yeah, that figures, cause terran is so imba. God fucking forbid you play terran someday and I guarantee you that if you are a master toss, you probably have the skill to be at most a plat/low diamond terran. Edit. Saw your region, which is reputably the region with the worst players. Maybe terrans still stick there cause other players are that bad and can't beat them. However, in other regions you have to be a MONSTER with at least 10% more the skill than your toss and zerg opponent to beat him. I argue there is slight imbalance of 10% in favor in zerg and toss according to statistics, which basically means that a terran who wins a game against equally ranked toss or zerg opponent is actually 10% or more better than his opponent if the game was balanced. What do you argue? You argue that a few percentage points are not a big deal. How many percentages is going to convince you that you are utterly wrong?
LOL, no. I avoid balance whining and make fun of it where ever I find it. Congratulations on your baseless character attack.
Also, representation does not inversely show skill. As I said, there are MANY reasons for the race a person picks, not necessarily ease to win with it. I switched to Protoss from when everyone was saying Terran OP because I didn't like the way T played and I found it aesthetically displeasing. Not for "win rates".
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I don't know about the changes themselves beyond the Overlord buff - that's been something that many players have suggested for a long time now - but the way Blizzard are going about the testing is a pretty cool response.
It's good that Blizzard are proactively thinking about new ways to do things, rather than just accepting the fact that the PTR server was dead.
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On May 04 2012 07:14 windsupernova wrote:Show nested quote +On May 04 2012 07:07 Wasteweiser wrote:On May 04 2012 07:01 hanlonbro wrote:On May 04 2012 06:57 EmilA wrote:On May 04 2012 06:39 Salteador Neo wrote:
There are less terrans because it's the hardest race to play at decent levels, not the weakest.
Ofc it has to be because it has the most cost-effective units if we want a balanced game at the highest level. Funny how the "it's okay because it's balanced at pro levels" only comes from zergs and protoss players. The balance of this game has gone so far down the shitter. You have grandmaster protoss players who have never expanded, ever, while you have terran players who are so motherfucking good but are still struggling in mid masters because they insist on playing straight up against protoss players who manage to control their drooling and roll their face across the keyboard. I don't remember which interview but LG-IM_Mvp said that it's not the game, it's the player. And he is a terran player, he does not whine. MVP also said terran was the weakest race in an interview with Artosis. BAMSHEBLAM. Back to some sort of main topic, I really dont see these changes being so major that we need a test map to check them out. It's really so minor and just changes how queens allocate energy really that changed. Just sad , my race doesn't get a buff  MVP said that Terran was weak on that particular set of maps that were being played at that time. MVP doesn´t balance whine Hero, MVP and Parting have said that TvP the better player wins. Stop twisting words to fit your.... agenda?
My agenda of... Queens don't really need extra energy?! yeah sure!
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On May 04 2012 07:55 Sadistx wrote:Show nested quote +On May 04 2012 07:51 hanlonbro wrote:
If Queens will be allowed to have +25 then I think that so should Orbitals and Nexus.
edit. not the first nexus at the start, but any additional ones That's actually a good idea. I think terrans should be able to scout and keep up in eco at the same time, like P/Z can.
Well I was talking more about double MULEs first thing. Zerg can make like seven drones at a time and Protoss can chrono boost out Probes like it's nobody's business. But I guess a fast scan wouldn't hurt either.
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I'm certainly no top player but that queen thing seems like a really huge deal that will have a big effect on the way the zerg early game is played, even at my level. Heck it might even make pool first the standard play since it sounds like it will effectively allow you to delay each queen after the first by 40 seconds. It seems like they're making an assumption it'll get used for tumors or transfuse, but I can totally see it just getting used for larve.
What if it was 35 energy or something?
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I can't understand why they would buff the observer again, its already such an incredible unit at such a low cost. Strange change to the queens aswell, will be interesting to see how this changes creep spread, as you often can't afford using the extra larvae anyway, so now you will lay down 3-4 creep tumors from your two queens.
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On May 04 2012 08:03 hanlonbro wrote:Show nested quote +On May 04 2012 07:55 Sadistx wrote:On May 04 2012 07:51 hanlonbro wrote:
If Queens will be allowed to have +25 then I think that so should Orbitals and Nexus.
edit. not the first nexus at the start, but any additional ones That's actually a good idea. I think terrans should be able to scout and keep up in eco at the same time, like P/Z can. Well I was talking more about double MULEs first thing. Zerg can make like seven drones at a time and Protoss can chrono boost out Probes like it's nobody's business. But I guess a fast scan wouldn't hurt either.
yup!
How much energy do those probes and drones cost again?
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really like the changes, but the queen energy thing is pretty stupid i think. all i see is blizz overshooting to get terran react to it in creating ravens, they tried hard to get players to build it, that somehow looks like a passive try to me
but maybe im overthinking that point a bit 
really like and hope that the ovie speed stays
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On May 04 2012 08:06 FrostedMiniWheats wrote:Show nested quote +On May 04 2012 08:03 hanlonbro wrote:On May 04 2012 07:55 Sadistx wrote:On May 04 2012 07:51 hanlonbro wrote:
If Queens will be allowed to have +25 then I think that so should Orbitals and Nexus.
edit. not the first nexus at the start, but any additional ones That's actually a good idea. I think terrans should be able to scout and keep up in eco at the same time, like P/Z can. Well I was talking more about double MULEs first thing. Zerg can make like seven drones at a time and Protoss can chrono boost out Probes like it's nobody's business. But I guess a fast scan wouldn't hurt either. yup! How much energy do those probes and drones cost again?
Off topic: is this DJ Wheat's kid?
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Honestly, think overlord change is good, zerg does have some trouble scouting. As for the queen change, I'm already cringing, imagining so many tumors spreading, sounds like it would be almost impossible to stop. Don't really like this change. Observer change I'm fairly neutral on, although I don't particularily see the need for it, so I guess it doesn't need to be implemented imo.
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On May 04 2012 07:51 hanlonbro wrote:
If Queens will be allowed to have +25 then I think that so should Orbitals and Nexus.
edit. not the first nexus at the start, but any additional ones
As a Zerg Player I would trade a creep tumor for a mule anyday! -.- dafuq
EDIT: you do realise that this is a buff to Zerg right? Why would you improve the other races. That's like saying immortals need 1 more range, then buffing the roach to make up for it. Please think about what the point of this thread is
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Map testing is so a good move from Bliz. I agree with the changes though Queens might be a bit too powered early now..
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This thread is turning into MADNESS!!
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Is there some specific locations an overlord can reach now in the beginning of the game that it couldn't before? Like some kind of high ground where it will be safe and scout the opponents base/nat. Antiga doesn't have any so it can't be tested right?
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Here is a proposition in place of the queen starting energy: zerg starts with a queen by default.
Why would this work? a early queen doesn't really help the zerg economy that much since with the 6 starting drones you do not have enough minerals to spend the larva you start with anyway. So you could have the choice to save the energy for a extra transfuse or start spreading creep right at the beginning of the game (potentially the starting queen starts with 0 energy not unlike having 0 cronoboost).
Implications:
-This would give zerg a bit of extra defense early game against hellion plays by getting SOME creep out on the map a little sooner without it going overboard with 50 energy queens. keeping most of zvt early game in balance.
-it will make early game zvz more interesting as strategies such as 6 pool drone all ins would not easy to pull off
-zvp would remain largely unaffected.
-Queens are so slow off creep and the maps are so large now that they wouldn't be useful in any foreseeable new crazy all in's either.
-Its much less clunky than giving your first queen 50 energy right out of the gate.
This would have to be subject to testing but I think it would be a viable way to get the intent of blizzards changes across without going overboard.
Thoughts?
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On May 04 2012 07:51 hanlonbro wrote:
If Queens will be allowed to have +25 then I think that so should Orbitals and Nexus.
edit. not the first nexus at the start, but any additional ones
Yeah, cus you can inject one hatchery as many times as you want at once... I see.
Overlord change is good. I don't know what is the actual difference in speed, cus I did not play on that map(and probably never will), but it sounds useful.
Double energy on Queens seems too much. It will shut down stargate plays completely. Maybe, if they really want to make creepspread easier, they should reduce the cost of the tumors or completely remove it(the cost) and add a cooldown.
The observer change is great. Protosses now will be able to build more than 2 observers and still not die because of the lack of robo units. That is great for the all P match-ups.
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Has anyone thought of giving 1 creep tumor in the beginning of the game instead of 50 energy for queens yet? Sounds more reasonable.
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On May 04 2012 08:10 Arkani wrote:really like the changes, but the queen energy thing is pretty stupid i think. all i see is blizz overshooting to get terran react to it in creating ravens, they tried hard to get players to build it, that somehow looks like a passive try to me but maybe im overthinking that point a bit really like and hope that the ovie speed stays
the +2 range to pheonixes was even more stupid, yet it still went through. +25 energy on a queen is no where near as good as that phoenix buff.
i think the queen change is more than reasonable.
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EPT
