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On May 04 2012 03:50 Leth0 wrote:Show nested quote +On May 04 2012 03:47 Hypemeup wrote:
Well, this means no more stargate play in PvZ and TvZ will be a weird(good zergs already have wicked Creepspread), Why would they want to fuck with TvZ, its really well balanced at the moment. I remember when they were testing 4 range roaches and people would say "well, this means no more fast expanding play in PvZ" Point is, none of you know wtf you are talking about.
I remember when people said the Ghost nerf would make it useless against lategame Zerg.
Oops, looks like they were right.
Just because people over-estimated a change in BETA doesn't mean that bad ideas don't exist today.
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On May 04 2012 04:32 Shiori wrote:Show nested quote +On May 04 2012 03:50 Leth0 wrote:On May 04 2012 03:47 Hypemeup wrote:
Well, this means no more stargate play in PvZ and TvZ will be a weird(good zergs already have wicked Creepspread), Why would they want to fuck with TvZ, its really well balanced at the moment. I remember when they were testing 4 range roaches and people would say "well, this means no more fast expanding play in PvZ" Point is, none of you know wtf you are talking about. I remember when people said the Ghost nerf would make it useless against lategame Zerg. Oops, looks like they were right. Just because people over-estimated a change in BETA doesn't mean that bad ideas don't exist today.
People said the ghost nerf would make it impossible to kill broodlord armies.
"oops, looks like they were wrong"
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France12578 Posts
On May 04 2012 04:34 Leth0 wrote:Show nested quote +On May 04 2012 04:32 Shiori wrote:On May 04 2012 03:50 Leth0 wrote:On May 04 2012 03:47 Hypemeup wrote:
Well, this means no more stargate play in PvZ and TvZ will be a weird(good zergs already have wicked Creepspread), Why would they want to fuck with TvZ, its really well balanced at the moment. I remember when they were testing 4 range roaches and people would say "well, this means no more fast expanding play in PvZ" Point is, none of you know wtf you are talking about. I remember when people said the Ghost nerf would make it useless against lategame Zerg. Oops, looks like they were right. Just because people over-estimated a change in BETA doesn't mean that bad ideas don't exist today. People said the ghost nerf would make it impossible to kill broodlord armies. "oops, looks like they were wrong"
Seeing a Terran win against Broodlord infestor corruptor if they ain't hugely ahead at this point is still something we don't see everyday.
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On May 04 2012 04:34 Leth0 wrote:Show nested quote +On May 04 2012 04:32 Shiori wrote:On May 04 2012 03:50 Leth0 wrote:On May 04 2012 03:47 Hypemeup wrote:
Well, this means no more stargate play in PvZ and TvZ will be a weird(good zergs already have wicked Creepspread), Why would they want to fuck with TvZ, its really well balanced at the moment. I remember when they were testing 4 range roaches and people would say "well, this means no more fast expanding play in PvZ" Point is, none of you know wtf you are talking about. I remember when people said the Ghost nerf would make it useless against lategame Zerg. Oops, looks like they were right. Just because people over-estimated a change in BETA doesn't mean that bad ideas don't exist today. People said the ghost nerf would make it impossible to kill broodlord armies. "oops, looks like they were wrong" BTW the roach change wasn't done in beta.
Didn't say it was. I'm saying that regardless of exaggeration in the past, you should be attacking the actual arguments behind the dissent, not just 'oh, people complain about changes and sometimes they're wrong therefore all complaints are unjustified.' FWIW, I still think lategame TvZ is screwed cause of BL--> Ultra switches which are extremely hard to hold without Ghost doing DPS, but it's besides the point.
There are two problems with the Queen energy buff:
1) It's not necessary. Creep spreading is not a problem in any matchup versus any opener. Nobody has complained about Hellions until today, and good players already have extremely fast Creep spread against top Terrans. Again, this isn't an issue.
2) It ruins air openings against Zerg unnecessarily. The instant Transfuse should not be underestimated, especially since so much of Stargate and Banshee openings are about picking off units against players who underprepared. This change will just allow Zerg to prepare even less and still not take damage. With the Overlord change, you should never NOT see an air opener coming, and you don't need this change to help you out.
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On May 04 2012 04:32 Shiori wrote:Show nested quote +On May 04 2012 03:50 Leth0 wrote:On May 04 2012 03:47 Hypemeup wrote:
Well, this means no more stargate play in PvZ and TvZ will be a weird(good zergs already have wicked Creepspread), Why would they want to fuck with TvZ, its really well balanced at the moment. I remember when they were testing 4 range roaches and people would say "well, this means no more fast expanding play in PvZ" Point is, none of you know wtf you are talking about. I remember when people said the Ghost nerf would make it useless against lategame Zerg. Oops, looks like they were right. Just because people over-estimated a change in BETA doesn't mean that bad ideas don't exist today.
4 Range roaches wasn't done in Beta.
Ghost nerf was done specifically so that they couldn't counter Tier 3 Zerg.
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On May 04 2012 04:37 Noocta wrote:Show nested quote +On May 04 2012 04:34 Leth0 wrote:On May 04 2012 04:32 Shiori wrote:On May 04 2012 03:50 Leth0 wrote:On May 04 2012 03:47 Hypemeup wrote:
Well, this means no more stargate play in PvZ and TvZ will be a weird(good zergs already have wicked Creepspread), Why would they want to fuck with TvZ, its really well balanced at the moment. I remember when they were testing 4 range roaches and people would say "well, this means no more fast expanding play in PvZ" Point is, none of you know wtf you are talking about. I remember when people said the Ghost nerf would make it useless against lategame Zerg. Oops, looks like they were right. Just because people over-estimated a change in BETA doesn't mean that bad ideas don't exist today. People said the ghost nerf would make it impossible to kill broodlord armies. "oops, looks like they were wrong" Seeing a Terran win against Broodlord infestor corruptor if they ain't hugely ahead at this point is still something we don't see everyday.
Nobody has a problem killing broodlord/infestor then or now.
Terrans complaint was that they had to invest in like 30+ supply of vikings to do it, and then all that resouces/supply was useless soon as the brood lords were dead which left them open to ultras or something else. (just adding since some people have no idea what the ghost complaint was about)
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My opinions from a Protoss player..
Overlord Speed: I was joking with my friend like a week ago saying overlord speed needs to be nerfed cause it's virtually impossible to prevent Zerg from scouting your tech route after FFE (especially when they use 2 ovies). So I don't like that change.
Queen Energy: Ya that's just ridiculous. In ZvT part of the reason TO go hellion is to help prevent creep spread. They don't need to have it easier. If they want to spread their creep than make enough lings to force them back or do the more recent roach aggression. It let's your third get up faster and your creep spread faster. IMO no change needed here and I don't even think Zergs at high level play ever complained about this being a problem.
Observer Build Time: Ummm... Really? As a Toss I don't see any reason why this is needed. None of the problems in high related play are related to this. The reason you normally want hallucination over observers against "Stephano 12 max out" is because of robo build time and this will still be the case as you'll need as many immortals as possible.
Overall, they said these are minor changes yet the first 2 are HUGE changes. The third is the only minor change. I don't like any of them personally. (but I'll take the obs build time since I'm Toss)
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On May 04 2012 04:38 Shiori wrote:Show nested quote +On May 04 2012 04:34 Leth0 wrote:On May 04 2012 04:32 Shiori wrote:On May 04 2012 03:50 Leth0 wrote:On May 04 2012 03:47 Hypemeup wrote:
Well, this means no more stargate play in PvZ and TvZ will be a weird(good zergs already have wicked Creepspread), Why would they want to fuck with TvZ, its really well balanced at the moment. I remember when they were testing 4 range roaches and people would say "well, this means no more fast expanding play in PvZ" Point is, none of you know wtf you are talking about. I remember when people said the Ghost nerf would make it useless against lategame Zerg. Oops, looks like they were right. Just because people over-estimated a change in BETA doesn't mean that bad ideas don't exist today. People said the ghost nerf would make it impossible to kill broodlord armies. "oops, looks like they were wrong" BTW the roach change wasn't done in beta. Didn't say it was. I'm saying that regardless of exaggeration in the past, you should be attacking the actual arguments behind the dissent, not just 'oh, people complain about changes and sometimes they're wrong therefore all complaints are unjustified.' FWIW, I still think lategame TvZ is screwed cause of BL--> Ultra switches which are extremely hard to hold without Ghost doing DPS, but it's besides the point. There are two problems with the Queen energy buff: 1) It's not necessary. Creep spreading is not a problem in any matchup versus any opener. Nobody has complained about Hellions until today, and good players already have extremely fast Creep spread against top Terrans. Again, this isn't an issue. 2) It ruins air openings against Zerg unnecessarily. The instant Transfuse should not be underestimated, especially since so much of Stargate and Banshee openings are about picking off units against players who underprepared. This change will just allow Zerg to prepare even less and still not take damage. With the Overlord change, you should never NOT see an air opener coming, and you don't need this change to help you out.
Good thing you play at the pro level and all, and will know how this will fold out. Especially after testing it thoroughly. Good to know!
But on a more serious note, every time a balance patch hits everything gets over exaggerated. Just test it yourself, or wait until it hits live servers to see how the pros play with it.
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On May 04 2012 04:39 Talack wrote:Show nested quote +On May 04 2012 04:37 Noocta wrote:On May 04 2012 04:34 Leth0 wrote:On May 04 2012 04:32 Shiori wrote:On May 04 2012 03:50 Leth0 wrote:On May 04 2012 03:47 Hypemeup wrote:
Well, this means no more stargate play in PvZ and TvZ will be a weird(good zergs already have wicked Creepspread), Why would they want to fuck with TvZ, its really well balanced at the moment. I remember when they were testing 4 range roaches and people would say "well, this means no more fast expanding play in PvZ" Point is, none of you know wtf you are talking about. I remember when people said the Ghost nerf would make it useless against lategame Zerg. Oops, looks like they were right. Just because people over-estimated a change in BETA doesn't mean that bad ideas don't exist today. People said the ghost nerf would make it impossible to kill broodlord armies. "oops, looks like they were wrong" Seeing a Terran win against Broodlord infestor corruptor if they ain't hugely ahead at this point is still something we don't see everyday. Nobody has a problem killing broodlord/infestor then or now. Terrans complaint was that they had to invest in like 30+ supply of vikings to do it, and then all that resouces/supply was useless soon as the brood lords were dead which left them open to ultras or something else. (just adding since some people have no idea what the ghost complaint was about)
maxed out BL - Corruptor - Infestor backed up by a good bank (for the remax on corruptors and infestors) and good micro is not beatable with vikings if u don't EMP or snipe the infestors. So actually every terran has a problem killing BL-Infestor "even then and now even more".
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On May 04 2012 04:42 Phobbers wrote:Show nested quote +On May 04 2012 04:38 Shiori wrote:On May 04 2012 04:34 Leth0 wrote:On May 04 2012 04:32 Shiori wrote:On May 04 2012 03:50 Leth0 wrote:On May 04 2012 03:47 Hypemeup wrote:
Well, this means no more stargate play in PvZ and TvZ will be a weird(good zergs already have wicked Creepspread), Why would they want to fuck with TvZ, its really well balanced at the moment. I remember when they were testing 4 range roaches and people would say "well, this means no more fast expanding play in PvZ" Point is, none of you know wtf you are talking about. I remember when people said the Ghost nerf would make it useless against lategame Zerg. Oops, looks like they were right. Just because people over-estimated a change in BETA doesn't mean that bad ideas don't exist today. People said the ghost nerf would make it impossible to kill broodlord armies. "oops, looks like they were wrong" BTW the roach change wasn't done in beta. Didn't say it was. I'm saying that regardless of exaggeration in the past, you should be attacking the actual arguments behind the dissent, not just 'oh, people complain about changes and sometimes they're wrong therefore all complaints are unjustified.' FWIW, I still think lategame TvZ is screwed cause of BL--> Ultra switches which are extremely hard to hold without Ghost doing DPS, but it's besides the point. There are two problems with the Queen energy buff: 1) It's not necessary. Creep spreading is not a problem in any matchup versus any opener. Nobody has complained about Hellions until today, and good players already have extremely fast Creep spread against top Terrans. Again, this isn't an issue. 2) It ruins air openings against Zerg unnecessarily. The instant Transfuse should not be underestimated, especially since so much of Stargate and Banshee openings are about picking off units against players who underprepared. This change will just allow Zerg to prepare even less and still not take damage. With the Overlord change, you should never NOT see an air opener coming, and you don't need this change to help you out. Good thing you play at the pro level and all, and will know how this will fold out. Especially after testing it thoroughly. Good to know! But on a more serious note, every time a balance patch hits everything gets over exaggerated. Just test it yourself, or wait until it hits live servers to see how the pros play with it.
Lol?
Yeah, and then what? Once it hits live servers, it's pretty much not going to get removed, because Blizzard will have come to the conclusion that its tests were favourable.
From what I've played of the map, going air against Zerg is significantly weaker, and the Creep spreading significantly better. I don't need to be a pro to know this, but if you're concerned, KawaiiRice wrote a rather detailed post explaining why everything about this change sucks earlier in the thread. Is he pro enough for you?
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Perfect changes, tbh. Terran here. When I was reading the problems all I was thinking was "overlord speed".
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This is probably just blizzard P.R to make the public think they contribute to balance testing. Whatever stats he hopes to gain from this would be mediocre at best.
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On May 04 2012 04:38 WolfintheSheep wrote:Show nested quote +On May 04 2012 04:32 Shiori wrote:On May 04 2012 03:50 Leth0 wrote:On May 04 2012 03:47 Hypemeup wrote:
Well, this means no more stargate play in PvZ and TvZ will be a weird(good zergs already have wicked Creepspread), Why would they want to fuck with TvZ, its really well balanced at the moment. I remember when they were testing 4 range roaches and people would say "well, this means no more fast expanding play in PvZ" Point is, none of you know wtf you are talking about. I remember when people said the Ghost nerf would make it useless against lategame Zerg. Oops, looks like they were right. Just because people over-estimated a change in BETA doesn't mean that bad ideas don't exist today. 4 Range roaches wasn't done in Beta. Ghost nerf was done specifically so that they couldn't counter Tier 3 Zerg.
Yeah. Like feedback counters all terran T3 and some T2 units?
They are very consequent then ...
They also managed to make snipe useless vs anything except casters. You can't even snipe a zergling now which everyone finds completely retarded. It makes me very worried that a change like that even makes it out of a meeting room at Blizzard.
Everything would be fine if terran had better air aoe. Thors don't do much to corruptors or broods and seeker missile is a joke. They can't buff the energy cos then it will be very OP indeed because the damage stacks.
What is funny is that they have learn nothing from SC1. In SC:BW they gave all races strong air aoe flying units because zerg air armies and other stuff) were way too strong.
The warhound seems like a good addition, but now they are talking about keeping the Thor, lol.
It is sad that terran is nerfed because of fundamental design problems
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On May 03 2012 08:57 Toppp wrote:
Pretty sad that they arent in touch with terrans current place.. I feel like they just took those complaints straight from the Battle.net forums.. 50 energy starting queen isn't taking into account late game creep spread which will be godlike and all queens will have a massive useless pileup of energy that will be spent mostly on pure creep tumors, which in return will have everyones creeps pread looking like seals..
They are not changing the rate at which energy accumilates, only the starting energy. The difference it will make is that in the start of the game zergs will be able to both inject and do one creep tumor. It will not affect lategame, since you're making your queens in the early/midgame, and queens won't stockpile any more energy than before unless you are not using your free creep tumor/not injecting properly.
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the queen change is slightly ridiculous, but as a zerg player I'd love to see this... (like TLO said: CREEP EVERYWHERE)
Maybe only a little increase of the starting energy would be enough. (35 or something like that, just to get the first tumor a bit earlier)
I like the ovi change, though.
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On May 04 2012 04:28 Creager wrote:Show nested quote +On May 04 2012 02:17 SuperYo1000 wrote:On May 04 2012 01:49 ][Primarch][ wrote:
Terran strong early game? you mean when they behind 3 bunkers until medivacs pop out so that the extreme power of protoss early game wont actually just roll straight over you? And then they can stroll around the map for 2-3 minutes before protoss have AOE damage. Herp Derp Blizzard. Protoss not doing good? They do fantastic at every level. ha I love this type of qq. Terran dominating for last year until recently and protoss finally coming out a year slump and its QQ all day long. Maybe its time for terran to work on some of those options and develop some good strats. Protoss did so tell me then, what did Protoss exactly do? yeah right, they called their engineers to give immortals more range and also asked the government to do something about making upgrades more affordable for the poorer tosses out there... sure has worked lol as I said before, Terran was imba, but that doesn't justify another race being imba now... we want a balanced game, don't we?
It's immature to think that a race deserves to do badly just because it was dominating beforehand. Although I have to say that it is good we are seeing protoss doing so well, because the terran metagame has not changed in a long time.
It would be interesting to see feedback being removed on mech units again, possibly. But mech will become more viable in HotS, I don't think we will see bio being used every game anymore. Battle hellions will counter speedlots.
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On May 04 2012 04:45 Shiori wrote:Show nested quote +On May 04 2012 04:42 Phobbers wrote:On May 04 2012 04:38 Shiori wrote:On May 04 2012 04:34 Leth0 wrote:On May 04 2012 04:32 Shiori wrote:On May 04 2012 03:50 Leth0 wrote:On May 04 2012 03:47 Hypemeup wrote:
Well, this means no more stargate play in PvZ and TvZ will be a weird(good zergs already have wicked Creepspread), Why would they want to fuck with TvZ, its really well balanced at the moment. I remember when they were testing 4 range roaches and people would say "well, this means no more fast expanding play in PvZ" Point is, none of you know wtf you are talking about. I remember when people said the Ghost nerf would make it useless against lategame Zerg. Oops, looks like they were right. Just because people over-estimated a change in BETA doesn't mean that bad ideas don't exist today. People said the ghost nerf would make it impossible to kill broodlord armies. "oops, looks like they were wrong" BTW the roach change wasn't done in beta. Didn't say it was. I'm saying that regardless of exaggeration in the past, you should be attacking the actual arguments behind the dissent, not just 'oh, people complain about changes and sometimes they're wrong therefore all complaints are unjustified.' FWIW, I still think lategame TvZ is screwed cause of BL--> Ultra switches which are extremely hard to hold without Ghost doing DPS, but it's besides the point. There are two problems with the Queen energy buff: 1) It's not necessary. Creep spreading is not a problem in any matchup versus any opener. Nobody has complained about Hellions until today, and good players already have extremely fast Creep spread against top Terrans. Again, this isn't an issue. 2) It ruins air openings against Zerg unnecessarily. The instant Transfuse should not be underestimated, especially since so much of Stargate and Banshee openings are about picking off units against players who underprepared. This change will just allow Zerg to prepare even less and still not take damage. With the Overlord change, you should never NOT see an air opener coming, and you don't need this change to help you out. Good thing you play at the pro level and all, and will know how this will fold out. Especially after testing it thoroughly. Good to know! But on a more serious note, every time a balance patch hits everything gets over exaggerated. Just test it yourself, or wait until it hits live servers to see how the pros play with it. Lol? Yeah, and then what? Once it hits live servers, it's pretty much not going to get removed, because Blizzard will have come to the conclusion that its tests were favourable. From what I've played of the map, going air against Zerg is significantly weaker, and the Creep spreading significantly better. I don't need to be a pro to know this, but if you're concerned, KawaiiRice wrote a rather detailed post explaining why everything about this change sucks earlier in the thread. Is he pro enough for you?
Remember when Thors had their energy removed? Then Thorzain showed that broken two base thor push against Toss, and then the Thor change got reverted? Just because it's on the test servers and hit the live servers, doesn't mean Blizzard won't change it back if it causes that much of an issue. Once again people, they're TESTING it for a reason. Pertaining to the pro comment, remember when Nestea and MVP both said their respective races were the weakest when they were dominating? I do, are they pro enough for you?
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Hopefully it goes through, best change since ghost nerd IMO. One cool thing is that with the Stephano style you get an extra inject cycle with your second queen that you typically use to plant a tumor at the natural and then send to the third. You also get to cOnnect main and nat with creep early on, which just looks nice and improves my general mood : )
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Observer buff is completely random and stupid. There is absolutely no need for it. Queen energy needs to be tested to see if it works well, don't really know about overlord speed. But the observer buff is just a generic buff that does not require any testing and is just a buff.
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On May 04 2012 04:54 KimJongChill wrote:
Hopefully it goes through, best change since ghost nerd IMO. One cool thing is that with the Stephano style you get an extra inject cycle with your second queen that you typically use to plant a tumor at the natural and then send to the third. You also get to cOnnect main and nat with creep early on, which just looks nice and improves my general mood : )
You heard it here first, folks: best change since the most poorly thought out change in Sc2 history.
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EPT
