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In what universe does earlier creep spread prevent a Terran from scanning and killing tumors? The panic is unfounded.
I agree that the extra creep spread (possibly in the Z main base) and popping with a transfuse will help against stargate but won't shut it down. First, the initial two or three queens will be at zero energy anyway because of tumors and injects. You just pick those off while other queens are building, do your massive damage, then possibly the Zerg can hold it off when the next few queens pop out. Then they have to spend energy injecting again and suddenly they're vulnerable. Or maybe you just lift them all and let the VR kill them off so they can't even use the energy, or build a couple extra phoenix to kill them while they're all lifted, etc.
Seriously, I know it's fashionable to completely over-react and pretend like little changes will destroy an entire part of the game (i.e. "protoss will never be able to FE against 4 range roaches!!11!!"), but in this case it's just silly what some people are claiming will happen.
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On May 04 2012 03:21 Nerski wrote:
I tested it a bit yesterday, the overlord speed buff I think is perfect. It gives zerg a little better scouting potential early on without them being so fast denying scouting is impossible.
As far as the queen energy goes, I'm a bit on the fence. Will it give all zergs amazing creep spread, no I doubt very much it will. As that requires attention by the player, and your average player still won't do it. Additionally scanning / observers / ravens /overseers will still make quick work of creep tumors.
One thing about the queen energy I think people 'may' be missing is that it will allow queens to have transfuse energy sooner which can work to bolster zergs early game defense a tick. Making queens more readily available to both spread creep and drop a transfuse on another queen or static defense. I think this is a good thing, but it'd remain to be seen if it's to powerful or not via testing.
Why can't we have more level headed posts like this instead of "PANIC ATTACKS" from so many people.
Honestly, go test out the map before you scream about how stupid blizzard is.
In my testings with friends, I found that the queen energy could be used to stop hellion/marauders allin quite nicely.
It couples well with the overlord speed buff. Once the overlord was able to scout how many raxes my opponent had, I just build more queens and spines. The queens were able to transfuse as soon as they pop out. It seems like a buff to reaction time for zerg. Currently...you have to kind of guess how many spines/queens to make sometimes.
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On May 04 2012 03:34 neoghaleon55 wrote:Show nested quote +On May 04 2012 03:21 Nerski wrote:
I tested it a bit yesterday, the overlord speed buff I think is perfect. It gives zerg a little better scouting potential early on without them being so fast denying scouting is impossible.
As far as the queen energy goes, I'm a bit on the fence. Will it give all zergs amazing creep spread, no I doubt very much it will. As that requires attention by the player, and your average player still won't do it. Additionally scanning / observers / ravens /overseers will still make quick work of creep tumors.
One thing about the queen energy I think people 'may' be missing is that it will allow queens to have transfuse energy sooner which can work to bolster zergs early game defense a tick. Making queens more readily available to both spread creep and drop a transfuse on another queen or static defense. I think this is a good thing, but it'd remain to be seen if it's to powerful or not via testing. Why can't we have more level headed posts like this instead of "PANIC ATTACKS" from so many people. Honestly, go test out the map before you scream about how stupid blizzard is. In my testings with friends, I found that the queen energy could be used to stop hellion/marauders allin quite nicely. I couples well with the overlord speed buff. Once the overlord was able to scout how many raxes my opponent had, I just built more queens and spines. The queens were able to transfuse as soon as they pop out. It seems like a buff to reaction timie for zerg. Currently...you have to kind of guess how many spines/queens to make sometimes.
You still have to guess how many queens/spines to make, it's just that it's more forgiving.
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On May 04 2012 03:04 babysimba wrote:Show nested quote +On May 04 2012 01:37 DuraLot wrote:
Hm, the queen energy will make zergs be able to drone more in the beginning because of the extra energy thus the need for 1 less queen a cycle later. Strictly speaking, no. Zerg is larva limited at the start, that's y gasless opening allow you to go fast 2 extra queens at the start. Although, zerg can choose to invest into gas earlier while still having a comparable economy. While this will allow zergs to go more aggressive in ZvT, i'm sure this will break zvp completely. Earlier speed means much safer droning or you can choose to invest into upgrades fast. Imagine 12 mins +2range roaches with slightly better creep spread for faster reinforcements. I guess the simplest tweak one can do is just to change queen's energy to around 37.5 or so. This will allow slightly more creep to be spread when building extra queens or sacrificing half an inject, without influencing the economy aspect of zerg.
The problem with these mid-range energy values is the fact that injects are done most efficiently in a single cycle. I haven't crunched any numbers so I'm not sure if they can work in 14/15p openers ZvP, but 15 hatch ZvT where you tend to get your first two queens at the same time is a problem. In this case you have to:
- double inject -> putting down 1 tumor: have a useless 12.5 energy on one of your queens, inject cycles are off so you have to do it every 20 seconds (only pros will be able to handle this kind of APM perfectly and it will complicate it needlessly), lose half an inject cycle
- sacrifice 2 half cycles to get both your queens to 0 energy (which will have one tumor in your main, not horrible but probably not worth the extra 1/2 cycle).
- don't drop a tumor, energy change does nothing
So really this doesn't realistically help anything.
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On May 03 2012 09:18 Karak wrote:
lol @ people saying "zerg will be unstoppable" or that the new 50 energy thing is absurd. Yes... an extra 25 energy for the 3-4 queens you make will make zerg unstoppable? Please. Holy crap.
It's a bonus 25 energy at the start of the queen's life. This isn't going to change all that much. Creep spread was still worked in before... just now you aren't forced to decide between hurting your early economy with a quick creep tumor or never spreading creep vs 6-8+ reactor hellions which keep you stuck in your base forever. They can still scan and kill the creep, and I doubt an extra 25 energy on the same 4 queens people use for the entire game is really going to create some sort of mid-game massive creep advantage. It's just an initial 25 energy. It's a brilliant change.
I'd guess that 90% of the people in here will see 0 impact on there games as a result of this. It will really only affect early game ZvT. Protoss already have great ways to clear creep, and their obs just got a build time buff.
you obviously havent played the map yet, u get an inject and a tumor but u also get extra active tumors for when u do push out of ur contain. And we all know that if u spread more tumors in the same direction that the creep spreads faster. Also how is it hurting ur early eco if u cant even use the larva that the inject ur talking about would give u....Also go up to 3-5 queens, 2 tumors for the extra queens instantly and that means that every time u have extra active tumors which means u can spread in more directions earlier or faster in the same direction.
Also this way of testing is stupid since getting nonpros to test it just means that blizzard will either take a shot in the dark about the change or will just take poll results and make the changes that way. Assuming they are only trying to balance the game at the pro level.
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Well, this means no more stargate play in PvZ and TvZ will be a weird(good zergs already have wicked Creepspread), Why would they want to fuck with TvZ, its really well balanced at the moment.
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Russian Federation4295 Posts
Add upgrade for 50 minerals and 50 gas at Lair or Hatchery (requiring Spawning Pool or Evolution Chamber), that will add 25 more starting energy to Queens.
Problem solved.
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On May 04 2012 03:47 Hypemeup wrote:
Well, this means no more stargate play in PvZ and TvZ will be a weird(good zergs already have wicked Creepspread), Why would they want to fuck with TvZ, its really well balanced at the moment.
I remember when they were testing 4 range roaches and people would say
"well, this means no more fast expanding play in PvZ"
Point is, none of you know wtf you are talking about.
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On May 04 2012 03:49 Existor wrote:
Add upgrade for 50 minerals and 50 gas at Lair or Hatchery (requiring Spawning Pool or Evolution Chamber), that will add 25 more starting energy to Queens.
Problem solved.
This would be pointless as the entire reasoning behind the change is to get creep spreading earlier and to have transfuse for early rushes. By the time anyone would be able to research this, it would be nearly useless.
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On May 04 2012 03:49 Existor wrote:
Add upgrade for 50 minerals and 50 gas at Lair or Hatchery (requiring Spawning Pool or Evolution Chamber), that will add 25 more starting energy to Queens.
Problem solved.
So in other words, make it more effective AND faster to build additional queens (which zerg can do now) and do nothing about the <5min problem that the change is intended to help zergs with?
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Good on overlord speed. I like it. The speed boost isn't massive, but its enough to get in before a marine gets out and destroys my chances of scouting. Not sure if I like the queen change. I mean, I like it because it lets me get stuff going a lot faster, but whether its OP or not isn't really decided in my league.
I think it needs some testing from GM and tournament level players to see what they think. The faster tumor definitely helps defend against hellions and allows for quicker creep spread, but my creep spreading isn't the best, so I don't know how fast it can get, given a good player is doing it.
We'll see how it plays out.
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This may lead to an imbalance when the level of play gets high enough to take advantage of the additional creep spread, but currently, no pro zergs are able to all 'Seal' creep spread to the point of it being useful. Sure, it would make stargate play slightly weaker but Zergs generally don't take huge direct damage from that anyway. However, sort of like the immortal buff, as people learn how to expoit their new upgraded unit, the unit will start to get really really good. So we won't really know how the new queen will play out.
The only possible thing it might do is make early game zerg all ins slightly stronger, using the starting queen to get 2 quick injects and then going all in. That 150 minerals can be used for an earlier roach warren.
I think the change won't change much at first, except make zerg more powerful overall, which i think is a good thing as I think this is akin to the Protoss upgrades where the entire race is buffed but not in a drastic way. We need less barracks build time nerf, and more Queen energy boost buffs.
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Simply giving queens additional start energy seems overpowered as you now don't have to decide if you go for a creep heavy build or not. Creep seems completely free which shouldn't be the case and I'm saying this as a zerg.
A far better change in my opinion would be to make energy queens usage more flexible. Often you face the problem that queens have over energy but are unable to spend it as all hatcheries are injected, there is no need for a further creeep tumor but you don't have enough for sufficient transfuses:
Example 1: 3 queens with thirty energy each in a defensive situation: Completely useless.
Example 2: 3 queens: one with 200 energy, two with zero. Completely useless in a defensive situation if the full queen gets targeted.
As a proposal queens should instead of starting with more energy BE ABLE TO SHARE ENERGY IF THEY ARE IN A CERTAIN RADIUS which means that every queen can use energy from a common pool which would make queen energy usage and depletion far easier.
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The Overlord change is needed imo, but holy overkill with the queen
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As a random player maining Protoss, I really agree with those possibilities. I can't wait to see the impact of those changes.
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So, it nerfs reactor hellion expands in TvZ and forces robo in PvZ?
I expect we will see some more zergling baneling allins that revolve around 2 queens and 3 hatcheries on 2 base. (no creep spread)
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Does anyone know with the new OL speed if an OL will outrun a queen off creep? If so, can we see a queen speed increase as well? ^^
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On May 04 2012 03:55 densha wrote:Show nested quote +On May 04 2012 03:49 Existor wrote:
Add upgrade for 50 minerals and 50 gas at Lair or Hatchery (requiring Spawning Pool or Evolution Chamber), that will add 25 more starting energy to Queens.
Problem solved. This would be pointless as the entire reasoning behind the change is to get creep spreading earlier and to have transfuse for early rushes. By the time anyone would be able to research this, it would be nearly useless.
If done right, this could be good. 30sec upgrade (queens take 50sec) and then you could go gas+upgrade+1queen, have a 50energy queen injecting both hatcheries, and afterwards all queens will start with 50 energy.
You basically get a bit more safety for a bit higher cost if you choose to, something you can't do right now - or at least not without blindly sacrificing drones/larva on evo + static defense, which don't add variety like queens do, because you can use them for various things.
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On May 04 2012 03:50 Leth0 wrote:Show nested quote +On May 04 2012 03:47 Hypemeup wrote:
Well, this means no more stargate play in PvZ and TvZ will be a weird(good zergs already have wicked Creepspread), Why would they want to fuck with TvZ, its really well balanced at the moment. I remember when they were testing 4 range roaches and people would say "well, this means no more fast expanding play in PvZ" Point is, none of you know wtf you are talking about.
Every balance change is exagerated 20 fold. "This change will totally fuck the match up" ------> 1% change in matchup win rate
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On May 04 2012 02:17 SuperYo1000 wrote:Show nested quote +On May 04 2012 01:49 ][Primarch][ wrote:
Terran strong early game? you mean when they behind 3 bunkers until medivacs pop out so that the extreme power of protoss early game wont actually just roll straight over you? And then they can stroll around the map for 2-3 minutes before protoss have AOE damage. Herp Derp Blizzard. Protoss not doing good? They do fantastic at every level. ha I love this type of qq. Terran dominating for last year until recently and protoss finally coming out a year slump and its QQ all day long. Maybe its time for terran to work on some of those options and develop some good strats. Protoss did
so tell me then, what did Protoss exactly do? yeah right, they called their engineers to give immortals more range and also asked the government to do something about making upgrades more affordable for the poorer tosses out there... sure has worked lol as I said before, Terran was imba, but that doesn't justify another race being imba now... we want a balanced game, don't we?
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