On May 03 2012 12:55 shmee wrote: I'm getting REALLY confused at the people saying this'll make protoss unable to go fast air or terran unable to do some 8 hellion run-by. That's kinda the point of the changes. Protoss and terran players already have the tools to easily prepare for the cheesy cheese. Zerg doesn't. This is an attempt at giving zerg something to deal with it.
And please, stop using the "BAWWWW THEY FORCE US INTO MACRO GAMES VS ZERG!" argument. We're already seeing terran players go fast triple orbital and protoss taking an early third.
There's a reason zergs win so few tournaments.
But protoss air almost never outright wins anymore. Most of the time you're lucky to even do enough damage to make the huge investment worth it. I don't feel like zerg are struggling against protoss air at all at the moment and it's one of the only ways to deal with the 12 min roach max style.
On May 03 2012 12:52 BronzeKnee wrote: Why don't they use the PTR for this?
My guess it that its something to do with the 1.5 patch being not yet complete so instead of branching the released version and merging the changes they just put it up as a map.
On May 03 2012 11:48 TheRabidDeer wrote: One is current patch, the other is with the proposed 50 energy queen. Both used the same build and scout path to obtain 4 queens.
Depends if you used the inital Queen energy (non-patched) for an inject or not.
You can't really increase the speed that creep spreads because they're still limited by their cooldowns. The only thing that changes is that initial tumor is out a single cycle faster and you can spread in more directions with fewer Queens as you build them. I'm not convinced that it's as game changing as people complain about, so at least it's being tested. People who actively deny creep spread will still be able to do that.
Creep spreads faster if there are more tumors. If you put down two tumors intially, the creep spreads out faster than if it was just one. So it's not just a cycle ahead, because the creep actually gets OUT faster each time if you're doing two at a time.
Dear David Kim, Please stop listening to Mud Leaguers, Watch the game, especially TvP - Thanks in Advance. P.S. Protoss is fucking good, this "protoss are good at pro level, but not top pro level" really is dumb, i'd almost guarantee a protoss will win GSL, and I would ALMOST be certain of a pvp final.
On May 03 2012 12:36 Liquid`Jinro wrote: ......... I dont have words for how dumb this is.
On May 03 2012 12:35 Empirimancer wrote: Just tested the new overlords, they feel much, much faster. Zerg early game scouting will be even better than Terran early game scouting now.
Terran early game scouting fucking sucks so that's not much of an accomplishment.
Yep. The irony of all of this is that Z/P all-ins right now are 10x more effective and unscoutable vs T than Terran all-ins. Most of the Terran all-ins have already been nerfed into smithereens forcing Terrans into playing a "macro game" in which also, in a catch-22, Terrans have the worst lategame...@_@ I do not know what progamers blizzard is talking with, but they obviously are not consulting much with Terran korean progamers/Terran progamers at all.
It'll be interesting to see when Blizzard finally steps it up with their balancing and acknowledges lategame Terran issues instead of messing around with overlord movement speed...
What lol. It's kinda easy to scout zerg all ins, 1 scan you see a bunch of units you know, you see a bunch of units pop out of eggs you know. I don't see terrans lose that much to zerg all ins, especially now of days unless they are being super super greedy.
As for the changes, love the overlord speed change, the queen one not sure it's good obviously, but we shall see I guess I could definitely see dealing with air being way way easier along with creep spread ^^.
Finally, some talk about TvP. Terran is always 10-20 supply ahead early-mid game and has so many aggressive options, but once both sides max out, toss is unstoppable with their remax abilities and scattered high templar.
On May 03 2012 13:01 teamhozac wrote: Please god, no... as if it wasnt already hard enough to push out/suprise attack in tvz, now THIS... jesus christ
I dont understand this mentality. Why do terrans feel it is right for them to surprise any race? Why is it that your all-ins are the only ones that should remain unscoutable?
EDIT:
Creep spreads faster if there are more tumors. If you put down two tumors intially, the creep spreads out faster than if it was just one. So it's not just a cycle ahead, because the creep actually gets OUT faster each time if you're doing two at a time.
You are limited by the creep tumor cooldown. Look at the two screenshots and realize the TRUTH, and not your imagination.
PS: I agree that late game TvP needs help for the terran. I have been saying it for ages. In both ZvP and TvP if protoss gets the 3rd base without a huge amount of losses, it is enormously difficult for either race to beat them. The gas units from protoss are insanely strong and the AE potential from protoss is even more strong.
On May 03 2012 12:55 shmee wrote: I'm getting REALLY confused at the people saying this'll make protoss unable to go fast air or terran unable to do some 8 hellion run-by. That's kinda the point of the changes. Protoss and terran players already have the tools to easily prepare for the cheesy cheese. Zerg doesn't. This is an attempt at giving zerg something to deal with it.
And please, stop using the "BAWWWW THEY FORCE US INTO MACRO GAMES VS ZERG!" argument. We're already seeing terran players go fast triple orbital and protoss taking an early third.
There's a reason zergs win so few tournaments.
But protoss air almost never outright wins anymore. Most of the time you're lucky to even do enough damage to make the huge investment worth it. I don't feel like zerg are struggling against protoss air at all at the moment and it's one of the only ways to deal with the 12 min roach max style.
Oh I don't disagree. Imo the changes are more anti-cheese than pro-zerg.
If the complaints were "oh wow now I can't ever push out without a raven" or "wow zealot pressure is useless now" then I'd understand and we could have a discussion from there, because those are real play changes. Since the complaints tend to boil down to "Damnit! I can't cheese zergs as much anymore!" I'm having a hard time finding them to be credible complaints.
On May 03 2012 12:55 shmee wrote: I'm getting REALLY confused at the people saying this'll make protoss unable to go fast air or terran unable to do some 8 hellion run-by. That's kinda the point of the changes. Protoss and terran players already have the tools to easily prepare for the cheesy cheese. Zerg doesn't. This is an attempt at giving zerg something to deal with it.
And please, stop using the "BAWWWW THEY FORCE US INTO MACRO GAMES VS ZERG!" argument. We're already seeing terran players go fast triple orbital and protoss taking an early third.
There's a reason zergs win so few tournaments.
It's not the hellion runby. If you got runby, you're just bad. It's that hellions are used to deny third base and creep spread as long as possible. It's not like hellions are unstoppable, Zerg can still kill hellions off with nice ling plays or 3,4 roaches.
Zerg usually have 2 queen around 4:30. Normally they use 2 inject, or 1 inject 1 creep tumor. But with the buff, they can do 2 inject and 2 creep tumor. The fastest hellions(gas first reactor hellion build) can only arrive in Zerg base around 5:00. Normally around that time, Zerg usually bank around 150, 200 mineral because they don't have enough larva to make units. Now when you come at Zerg base, Zerg already has 2 creep tumors, more larva stocked up prepare for your hellions.
That is the fastest hellion build. You can delay some creep spread with that, of course, until 3rd and 4th queen come out. All other hellion builds or marine pressure should meet nice amount of creep by the time they come.
Edit: LoL, now we have KawaiiRice, Avilo, dde, Jinro, Demuslim whining in this topic. It feel fuzzy.
The queen change is the only one that has any real weight behind it. The overlord change is extremely welcome. The creep isn't the thing that people are going to complain about since tumors will get cleaned up anyway. Hellions still deny creep spread, it just might be farther out on the map when hellions come out. As soon as Terran use scans, the creep advantage is gone. Transfuse on the other hand could be interesting...spines now have twice the hp if you can keep enemy units from running by. Hellions with proper control are still doing copious amounts of damage with very little risk so an extra tumor or two isn't going to kill Terran. After that initial 25 extra energy is spent on something the advantage is gone.
10 seconds off of obs time is inconsequential in the long run. If timings need to be augmented by 10 seconds again then it will happen. This isn't going to break anything. I wish they would have addressed late game TvP as well, however. I can't play the matchup without a feeling of inevitable failure if i can't stomp the Protoss player before 3-3 and a max out. The answer HAS to be in the factory. I'm not sure why tanks haven't been tinkered with to be reasonable in larger numbers or why thors can't have something that increases mech viability in the matchup. Maybe after this season we will see something come to fruition.
ITT: Theorycrafting up the wazoo when there's a map available for everyone to test. Just go test it out before having hundreds of pages talking about whether an extra creep tumor in the beginning of the game is imba or not.
I almost wish that both Supernova and Taeja get completely destroyed 3-0 so that this nonsense might finally stop, 'toss isn't good at the highest level', k.
On May 03 2012 12:35 Empirimancer wrote: Just tested the new overlords, they feel much, much faster. Zerg early game scouting will be even better than Terran early game scouting now.
Terran early game scouting fucking sucks so that's not much of an accomplishment.
On May 03 2012 12:36 Liquid`Jinro wrote: ......... I dont have words for how dumb this is.
On May 03 2012 12:35 Empirimancer wrote: Just tested the new overlords, they feel much, much faster. Zerg early game scouting will be even better than Terran early game scouting now.
Terran early game scouting fucking sucks so that's not much of an accomplishment.
On May 03 2012 13:03 DeMusliM wrote: Dear David Kim, Please stop listening to Mud Leaguers, Watch the game, especially TvP - Thanks in Advance. P.S. Protoss is fucking good, this "protoss are good at pro level, but not top pro level" really is dumb, i'd almost guarantee a protoss will win GSL, and I would ALMOST be certain of a pvp final.
On May 03 2012 13:03 DeMusliM wrote: Dear David Kim, Please stop listening to Mud Leaguers, Watch the game, especially TvP - Thanks in Advance. P.S. Protoss is fucking good, this "protoss are good at pro level, but not top pro level" really is dumb, i'd almost guarantee a protoss will win GSL, and I would ALMOST be certain of a pvp final.
So it's okay for Terran to win 3 of the last 4 GSL titles while only one Protoss (Genius) even made it to that point and lost to DRG 4-2? Our last title win in GSL came from MC over a year ago in GSL March '11. We're having one really solid season because Protoss players are changing how they play the matchup and it's finally working in their favor.
What happened this season with 5 Protoss in the ro8 won't happen again this year, I guarantee that.
EPT![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/zEHdM.jpg)
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/XGxed.jpg)
