On May 02 2012 01:14 DarKFoRcE wrote: You guys should know that Cloud generally says things in a very blunt and exaggerated way, but in the core he does have a point in my opinion and it takes quite some courage to go out and say it in a way like that.
I agree. I am glad a pro player has the courage to speak out on injustices they perceive. I hope no one thinks negatively of Cloud for this because, as you say, there is a kernel of truth to it. I just think its an unfortunate reality that players don't get appreciation in proportion to their efforts. Its similar to all the actors/actresses that haven't made it yet.
Well I respect Cloud for stating this opinion loudly because this might bring him a lot of hate. I don't think it's fair that the casters are more important to the community than the players but we have to face reality. SC2 as a game itself doesn't deserve the credit because it's just not that good. It's the scene and storylines that attract the viewers. A lot of people are only watching the streams to be entertained and not to get a nerdgasm on the awesome tactics, and for that to succeed we have to rely on casters who can carry the game.
On May 02 2012 01:14 DarKFoRcE wrote: You guys should know that Cloud generally says things in a very blunt and exaggerated way, but in the core he does have a point in my opinion and it takes quite some courage to go out and say it in a way like that.
Agreed, and I'm glad that people haven't just blindly shit on Cloud, as what he is saying is obviously important to him, and to the whole scene.
You have to keep in mind that there is basically two different types of casters. The first is the kind that analyzes the game, Artosis, for example. The second kind is more of the play by play person, someone like Catspajamas or Tasteless. You want to have these two types of casters because when combined together they make up the best casting team. The play by play person typically will mention something like "Well, our Terran player is now getting a Ghost Academy" and the analytically caster will explain why or why not this is a smart move. Naturally the second type of caster doesn't have to know near as much about the game as the first type of caster, it is just the way things work.
Is it fair that they get paid more? Maybe, maybe not. But keep in mind that they are the ones delivering the game to the audience explaining what is going on and why. If you don't like a certain caster then either don't watch the event they are casting for or write to the event organizers explaining why you think they are bad.
On May 02 2012 00:43 Liquid`Jinro wrote: It's not a situation I like, or how I would want it to work, but it's also not something you can blame the casters for... The fact that a lot of casters are just downright more popular than most players means that they are pretty much automatically more valuable and thus get paid more.
I don't think it SHOULD be like this. I think in an ideal world everyone would make more money, and there would be a higher % of players that are more stand-out in terms of fanbase than the casters, but I dont see anything you could do to force this to happen in a sustainable way. It is possible that as the game matures and players build up more solid fanbases, things will gradually even out. There is definitely an issue of volatility here - casters are a constant, they will always be there, whereas sometimes you will see even someone as good as MC or Bomber drop down to code B.
I don't think anyone has a problem with casters earning good money - if they are any good. Problem is, as said by ClouD, that most of them are indeed not, but still get paid a shitload of money because they made themselves a name.
Why is it a problem when a caster gets a shitload of money? If he can get it, he deserves it even if someone thinks he isn't good, that's only a opinion. It's simple as that and its not a problem, if it was a problem, they wouldn't get that much.
On May 02 2012 01:20 ShuttingFromTheSky wrote: Well I respect Cloud for stating this opinion loudly because this might bring him a lot of hate. I don't think it's fair that the casters are more important to the community than the players but we have to face reality. SC2 as a game itself doesn't deserve the credit because it's just not that good. It's the scene and storylines that attract the viewers. A lot of people are only watching the streams to be entertained and not to get a nerdgasm on the awesome tactics, and for that to succeed we have to rely on casters who can carry the game.
Speak for yourself, there are a lot of people that actually enjoy the game.
This thread is full of baseless speculations and random nonsense none of the people arguing have an idea of the salaries of either casters or players.Now if Cloud feels like he isn`t paid fairly and deserve more maybe he should focus more on the game, his personality and self promoting that way he will get paid more.Players who are good and marketable clearly can ask for bigger salaries and will receive them. Bottom line is if you are good at the thing you do you will be paid accordingly/fair to your skills/whatever service you provide.
The real problem is not that casters exploit the fact that they're more popular (and make more money) than most players. I mean why wouldn't they take advantage of this opportunity? The problem is that they are, in fact, more popular. And that's not their fault, but rather our (the fan's) fault. This is a direct consequence of what Tyler pointed out in the SotG thread: many people watch streams for entertainment purposes only, not for Starcraft itself. The vast majority of viewers have very little understanding about what's actually going on in a high level pro game, but they still get excited and watch because the casters are excited, or because there's some form of drama going on. That's why players' stream numbers are directly derived from fame, not from game play level. And even though this is a great thing for the scene in general, cause people who don't even play the game enjoy watching tournaments, I imagine it creates painful situation for many not-so-famous pros. Cause all-in-all it's a shame that someone like ClouD (and many others) who practices hours and hours every day struggles to make a living while some casters (I won't throw in names) with no skill whatsoever have a stable situation.
Stress is the only one on the money here, a casting duo does NOT need both of them to be GM in order to be good, just look at commentators in actual sports, those that come from a high level playing background are almost universally terrible. If you have a color guy that knows what he's doing alongside a PBP guy, that's perfectly fine
edit at the above, the average qb makes way more than $5mm/yr
On May 02 2012 00:29 SiroKO wrote: Tasteless is the epitome of that obscene lazyness. He is casting GSL code S, yet mixed up twilight/citadel of adun in his last cast and in all honesty, doesn't seem to play the game at all, or at best at a platinum league level. He has been in Korea for nearly 5 years yet still can't talk Korean at all.
Khaldor is basically the opposite... He has strong work ethics, comments weekly tournament, try hard to learn Korean, try to meet the progamers and talk with them... I wish the last all the luck required to succeed...
Khaldor casts tournaments at like 5AM. He is a mad man lol
I was very surprised with the fact that Tasteless didnt know Zenio left OGS and joined Liquid.
This is a valid concern in the community, and it is good that Cloud brought it up. However, I hope that we can stay rational and focused on this issue and not turn this into caster bashing and witch-hunting. Let's give some positive feedback on how certain casters can improve, rather than call for the sacking of casters that we may not enjoy.
That being said, the caster is very important in the entertainment value and the hype of an event, and we cannot ignore this. With the many tournaments out there today, all competing with one another, having good players and good casters are both ways to rise above the rest of the competition. Naturally, the demand for a few popular casters grows, and their compensation increases likewise. There are market forces at work, and it is not like we can simply say, "pay these casters less", and problem solved. There needs to be changes in market forces.
On May 02 2012 01:07 figq wrote: What about Team owners and League owners? A player envies a caster in front of him, but behind both of them someone makes even more money with even less game effort. (if we judge everything by game effort - maybe we shouldn't)
Team Owners and League Owners DO NOT make that much money AT ALL.
Please don't talk out of your ass.
Almost every team out there is in the red for the owners.
i personally have no respect for casters that play at a low level like at diamond. it's really easy to get decent at this game. i just don't understand how someone could make a living off of talking about starcraft but not actually be good at starcraft. casting is not just about great enunciation and excitement but about knowledge. this applies even for play by play people.
i also feel progamers work a lot harder than casters for less. i don't know how hard or time consuming casting is but im sure it is difficult. but part of casting is improving your knowledge of what you're casting.
but some people are popular because they "bring energy to a cast" or something like that. i personally don't care for casting like this but i can understand why those that watch starcraft for entertainment rather than learning latch onto these personalities. and it's not bad that stuff like this is happening, if people like these casters, then so be it. it's just not my personal vision of how a starcraft cast should go.
Casters and top players bring viewers. Low tier so called "pros" doesn't. If cloud wants to make more money he should focus on his play instead of shitting on casters.
Casters do a lot more promotion work than just the VOD's etc. Day[9] and TB are on twitter a lot. (Tasteosis plug the shit out of it) They engage more, so they get more. If these players are not happy with the distribution, maybe they should be giving more back to the community other than just playing. Does Cloud play games with his stream followers? I know Day[9] does with his subscribers, and Husky does with his. Even simpe interaction like this helps your fan base and reputation.
Atm there are more quality players than quality casters, so casters will be in higher demand as they are more difficult to replace. Simple mathmatics. Players can take it upon themselves to increase their visibility and value in the eyes of fans / tournaments / sponsors through various things. Most of them don't however.
TLDR. A lot of the top casters interact with their own fan base a lot more than most pro players do, and because there are less of them they are more in demand for the positions, given more weight because then they bring that fan base with them
Well, the whole thing is simple supply and demand. There are simply more players than casters and currently, casters are more in demand, and hence can demand higher pay.
The demand is coming from the community itself. How many times have I heard people complaining the casters suck and saying that it ruins the event for them, in total disregard on the quality of players.
i.e. Community demands casters > players, if you want change, the community needs to change.
On May 02 2012 00:43 Liquid`Jinro wrote: It's not a situation I like, or how I would want it to work, but it's also not something you can blame the casters for... The fact that a lot of casters are just downright more popular than most players means that they are pretty much automatically more valuable and thus get paid more.
I don't think it SHOULD be like this. I think in an ideal world everyone would make more money, and there would be a higher % of players that are more stand-out in terms of fanbase than the casters, but I dont see anything you could do to force this to happen in a sustainable way. It is possible that as the game matures and players build up more solid fanbases, things will gradually even out. There is definitely an issue of volatility here - casters are a constant, they will always be there, whereas sometimes you will see even someone as good as MC or Bomber drop down to code B.
This pretty much sums up my sentiment exactly. I don't think that casters should be making more money because I feel like players work more, put more hours in, and dedicate themselves more to the game than them (well, at least some do.) But I also know that casters won't be going away anytime soon because their free-time works to their advantage. I think most casters, through their open nature, act more like ambassadors to the industry and eSports in general more than players do. I don't think that SC2 would have grown as popular and, in some ways, profitable as it is now if people like TB, Day9, and Husky didn't exist.
The casters that make money and travel all over do a great job and are a large reason that SC2 is an esport. They invest money into the scene, most of them play the game pretty heavily, they work outside of the time they're on camera to organize tournaments, sponsors, and improve their own skills.
Really I think the mediocre 'pro' players that are making a living are the ones that need to be called out. (Not that ClouD is in that category, I really don't know much about him)
Cloud is so correct on alot of points. Have you guys ever heard Tastless cast a proper ZvZ ever? He is CLUELESS about the race and he doesnt bother to gain any proper knowledge and he is one of the people living out of this. Day9 is also a man who deserves some criticism sits down explaining the most captain obvious things as most of the other MLG casters aswell. Djwheat, JP etc..same thing there, overhyped people and that im like pretty sure got a pretty fat salary.
I understand players that are pissed off about these kind of things. They get less attention and less money for more work and definitley more knowledge about the actual game.
Ive always disliked Khaldors casting but the man actually sits down and tries to learn every single thing about every single race and thats a thing I love about him. Even tho I cant stand his accent. He actually knows what he is talking about ,it sounds wierd with german/english accent but still.. Many other "mediocre" casters doesnt do that which upsets people.
EPT
