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On May 02 2012 00:19 Dexington wrote:
I'm glad someone finally called out Day9. His casting is way over the top and nonsensical most of the time at major events.
Bitterdam is the only casting duo that is top notch at the moment. Tasteless has gone way downhill, but Artosis is still great. Grubby is probably the single best caster in the business though. He is so well spoken and has a larger vocabulary than any other caster, which is astounding since it isn't his first language.
This is pretty much exactly how I feel. I would maybe also add Hasuobs, I'm always amazed how good his casts are when he occasionally does some
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It's funny, the pro's complain about the casters who help bring in the 'new players' or 'noobs' to the scene. Without these new players the scene would fizzle out and the pro's wouldn't stand to earn half the money they're looking at at the moment (don't misunderstand, I don't mean casters do it all by any means). Sure casters get a lot of the limelight but their role in garnering attention for e-Sports is completely different to any other real sport/art. I also think Cloud is right in saying that many could really put more effort in and gain a greater understanding but I don't think this is necessary for 'announcer' type casters.
I think for big figures like Cloud, keeping away from this type of non-sense is the best way to go. I'm sure it's not hard to get in contact with some casters to give them some analytical pointers and start-points. Raising such a point reeks of jealousy and a lust for cash in my opinion but regardless I have immense respect for Cloud.
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I do wish that casters would prepare more. I remember somebody (probably Bitter/Rottie) saying that d.Apollo brings notes to his casting so he has player stats, records and other stuff he can talk about before during and after a game. The kind of prep that RL Sport casters do, and the kind of thing that korean commentators do in both starcrafts.
The beginning of a majority of foreign casts are "There was this time when i was X years old... ...and now the game has started to take shape..."
The stuff i want to hear are things like:
"This map plays this MU in X ways because of Y and Z features" - we have 'analytically casters' yet i rarely here any real detail of this except for "here are the winrates on this map, looks good for our terran player, here!"
"This player has good recent results vs X on this map and overall, his previous wins over Y player has him going with some momentum" - because it lets you know the players history, you can know hes played a chain of games and how well he's doing. it helps connect the games to make it seem like an actual series rather than playing on a game-per-game or BoX-per-BoX setup
i could have worded that last sentence better =\
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On May 01 2012 23:49 Greenei wrote:
Well then go be a caster I guess.
"Day9 gives players credit for random shit" that's just true, also viewers give day9 too much credit for casting and saying random shit.
I don't really like Khaldors english casting but he's okay in german.
Don't see why he's giving credit to Total Bisquit, his voice is so fucking annoying. Also he is one of the least knowlagable casters at all, so this is pretty weird.
Well, I guess because TB does a lot for the players, like hosting the SCI and sponsoring Bling. Also he clearly does not need any money, because he gets more from his youtube channel.
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Tasteless is the epitome of that obscene lazyness.
He is casting GSL code S, yet mixed up twilight/citadel of adun in his last cast and in all honesty, doesn't seem to play the game at all, or at best at a platinum league level.
He has been in Korea for nearly 5 years yet still can't talk Korean at all.
Khaldor is basically the opposite... He has strong work ethics, comments weekly tournament, try hard to learn Korean, try to meet the progamers and talk with them...
I wish the last all the luck required to succeed...
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On May 02 2012 00:29 SiroKO wrote:
Tasteless is the epitome of that obscene lazyness.
He is casting GSL code S, yet mixed up twilight/citadel of adun in his last cast and in all honesty, doesn't seem to play the game at all, or at best at a platinum league level.
He has been in Korea for nearly 5 years yet still can't talk Korean at all.
Khaldor is basically the opposite... He has strong work ethics, comments weekly tournament, try hard to learn Korean, try to meet the progamers and talk with them...
I wish the last all the luck required to succeed...
Khaldor casts tournaments at like 5AM. He is a mad man lol
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Didn't watch much, but caught the bit about his favorite/least favorite casters. I agree with him, but also wanted to add that I find casters who over-analyze and try to make sense of randomness (as he talks about with Day9) much harder to listen to than those who don't offer any deep insight into the game whatsoever.
Not every decision a player makes is a stroke of genius, and sometimes they just get lucky. Admitting a play isn't perfect doesn't make it any less exciting, so be honest in your analysis.
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On May 02 2012 00:32 Dexington wrote:Show nested quote +On May 02 2012 00:29 SiroKO wrote:
Tasteless is the epitome of that obscene lazyness.
He is casting GSL code S, yet mixed up twilight/citadel of adun in his last cast and in all honesty, doesn't seem to play the game at all, or at best at a platinum league level.
He has been in Korea for nearly 5 years yet still can't talk Korean at all.
Khaldor is basically the opposite... He has strong work ethics, comments weekly tournament, try hard to learn Korean, try to meet the progamers and talk with them...
I wish the last all the luck required to succeed... Khaldor casts tournaments at like 5AM. He is a mad man lol
Khaldor dreams about casting imo. Such a dedicated and awesome guy.
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I actually agree with most of what Cloud said (apart from the opinion that Apollo is "just OK"). Plus, it's his opinion, and he just speaks it openly, I wouldn't say he's whining or anything. Maybe he needed to let off some steam.
The thing I'd stress out is the will to improve. It's the same with both casters and players. Some people get better with time, some fade into obscurity. And those who remain are the deserving ones - Artosis is still the best caster around, Apollo or Rotterdam are also continually good, and IMO, Khaldor (or the WolfDor combo, respectively) is getting better and better with each cast.
Some casters are kinda stale and don't really get better. I'd name HD and Moletrap (who probably fell out of SC2 casting for good). Again, that's my opinion.
Good thing he highlighted both the quality of play-by-play casting and player casting.
And a little question... everyone keeps saying that the Korean commentary is awesome. Is there any way to watch it in an "understandable" way or do you have to learn Korean to fully appreciate the awesome? :D
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On May 02 2012 00:29 Warpath wrote:
The stuff i want to hear are things like:
"This map plays this MU in X ways because of Y and Z features" - we have 'analytically casters' yet i rarely here any real detail of this except for "here are the winrates on this map, looks good for our terran player, here!"
"This player has good recent results vs X on this map and overall, his previous wins over Y player has him going with some momentum" - because it lets you know the players history, you can know hes played a chain of games and how well he's doing. it helps connect the games to make it seem like an actual series rather than playing on a game-per-game or BoX-per-BoX setup
i could have worded that last sentence better =\
Orb is really good at that.
Despite what some members of the community tend to think about him, he's really one of the best casters out there.
The only casters I really have problems with are HD/PainUser and JP. HD not as much as PainUser though. It seems like he just woke up one morning and said "Well, playing isn't working out as well as I thought, maybe I should give this casting thing a try" and then it worked. He seems to have made no forward progress or evolution in his casting since he started.
Honorable mention here goes to Moletrap; I never really liked his casting personally but he clearly put a lot of effort into not only improving his knowledge about the game and the players to a degree almost nobody else does. I hope he continues to cast SC2 alongside his LoL project with OGN.
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On May 01 2012 23:59 Kraznaya wrote:
people who think casters have a tough job that involves a specialized set of skills haven't listened to real pro players do casting
this .
most casters never been grandmaster , yet then i wonder myself : how can you CASTER explain this game to a huge crowd if you dont even know the game yourself and your view over the game is limited due to you not playing it or not being good enough at playing it .
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I completey agree with him that most casters have no clue what they're talking about and they still are more popular/get more money than players who try x100 as hard. I agree about Artosis being the best caster, but that's obvious for everyone with a little brain. Yes, Day9 talks too much about small stuff, which I don't enjoy too. Yes it is sad that casters who put zero effort to improve their casting/game knowledge are more recognizable and get more money than players who live for that game. Lol-ed so hard about the TLO comment. Yes, the aren't enough top notch casters right now, which is sad. I absolutely agree and support his statement about that the community must stop supporting terrible casters who do terrible job.
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Well there is definitely some truth in cloud's words but it is also a very player biased view.
Instead of hating on TLO he should have take him as an example how you can self promote yourself. It's not the caster's fault that they are more popular than the players. If you don't pay attention to your fans (e.g through facebook, twitter, shows, TL forum) then you won't get that much recognition.
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Ok here's a list of casters
Artosis
Tasteless
Day9
djWHEAT
dApollo
RotterdaM
MrBitter
Wolf
Khaldor
DoA
CatsPajamas
Husky
TotalBiscuit
HD
PainUser
itsmeJP
Rob Simpson (?)
Personally I think Day9 produces a lot of good content with his dalies and tries to make different tournaments such as the AHGL and works well with redbull lan.
djWHEAT really produces a lot of content from the OneMoreGame.tv with different shows such as inside the game, kings of tin and sometimes EG MCSL
Rotterdam and MrBitter now with NASL and even before that always casted tons of games for many many hours and Rotterdam plays the game at a high level.
Anyways ClouD said it and he knows it, personality and knowing how to speak. Many of the watchers are not really grandmaster level and wouldn't really understand the insight that a progamer would give. But these casters with personalities simply make the game much more entertaining.
I do agree though with some of his points. I mean come on JP, HD, PainUser, Rob Simpson?
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Sweden33719 Posts
It's not a situation I like, or how I would want it to work, but it's also not something you can blame the casters for... The fact that a lot of casters are just downright more popular than most players means that they are pretty much automatically more valuable and thus get paid more.
I don't think it SHOULD be like this. I think in an ideal world everyone would make more money, and there would be a higher % of players that are more stand-out in terms of fanbase than the casters, but I dont see anything you could do to force this to happen in a sustainable way. It is possible that as the game matures and players build up more solid fanbases, things will gradually even out. There is definitely an issue of volatility here - casters are a constant, they will always be there, whereas sometimes you will see even someone as good as MC or Bomber drop down to code B.
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Engage caster bashing thread.
User was temp banned for this post.
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Well d'apollo is the ideal caster. Hes charismatic, knowledgable, creates lots of useful content and is a hardworker. Hes the only one who deserves all the popularity he gets
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Yeh I too mostly agree with Cloud's opinion on the matter.
I mean there are a couple casters that he missed (not on purpose) or that I'd just like to add to the top ones, such as Wolf but else yes, he has my consent.
A caster like Wolf, Artosis, Rotterdam, Grubby and others I am forgetting are my dream. They talk well, they're fun to listen to, you can SEE their extra work put into this and on top of that, they have some special genuine interest in this game they're casting, Starcraft 2, and, to some degree deriving from that, of course competitiveness as well. They just enjoy a good match of Starcraft 2 so much that even if they don't immediately throw around "best game ever" you just feel it.
But even if that genuine interest isn't or doesn't appear to be there I still have a lot respect for and rather enjoy listening to casters that DO put in a lot work. That just try to do a damn good job.
Meanwhile when people lack both of it... let's just say I'd love to see Artosis cast with Wolf every time instead of the good old Archon as things are just now...
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It is very sad that a person who practices 10 hours a day gets paid only if he wins and casters getting 5 digit sums for casting on a such a low level.Many times they misinform the audience due to their own lack of knowledge.DApollo, incontrol , Tastosis, Day9 all great casters,but sadly there are casters who want to take their paycheck and wont even bother ladder 2 FCKN HOURS A DAY so they get at least into diamond.thats a shame.
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It's basic economics - casters matter a lot to a tournament, and there are actually only a very small number who are very good. That means you have to pay them a lot to get them at your tournament. But the second tier of casters is improving a lot. Wolf is very good. Husky has gotten a *lot* better. Orb and Adebisi casting ESV is extremely good. dApollo is very good. Even some of the less good people for my taste (TotalBiscuit, for example) have gotten a lot better. We're getting to the point where if one of the top casters is asking an insane price, tournaments should feel more comfortable going to the next tier of casters without it destroying their tournament. That will only become more true with time. And as that becomes true, caster pay will stop going up and players will catch up. You can already see some of the worse casters starting to disappear. JP used to cast main MLG tournaments - now he hosts and maybe casts the qualifiers and so forth. Gretorp is now only casting NASL half the time. IPL uses CatsPajamas and DoA for their nightly shows, rather than HD and PainUser, who I think are clearly worse.
I also wouldn't be surprised if before too long one or two players retire and become very good casters. And then eventually we'll get to the point where the only way into a good casting job is to be a pro for a while first, at which point no one will have anything to complain about.
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EPT
