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On May 08 2012 18:19 Corsica wrote:
Some of casters yes, but some of them no. If you look at caster like Husky, yes I agree, he casts 2 games a day and recieves a lot of money for 1hour of work. But if you look at casters like Artosis, Khaldor they basically live sc2. They play it to gain trends/understanding, Khaldor does his little vlogs etc, I wouldnt say that caster is only to cast sc2, but also to be a part of community, more than the players usually.
I can't believe you are dogging Husky, even though he does far, far more for the community than say Artosis does. He also casts far more than the average caster through his youtube channel, as well as promoting e-sports all off his own back.
What does Tasteless do? He casts Code S for the 4 weeks its on, a few hours a night. And then what?
The main problem I feel Cloud has was the huge disparity in workload to reward ratio for players to casters, especially since players work so hard in putting on great games. And yes, he's right, players SHOULD get paid more.
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lol, the age-old hostility between Engineering and Marketing/Sales has finally reached SC2^^
There are maybe a dozen or so casters who are fairly well-known and who put a lot of effort into building their brand. They are our (the spectators') gateway to the game (and to the players) and they create much of the excitement that makes us love esports.
There is a much larger number of players and - in contrast to casters - they seem to be easily replaceable. Do I really care whether Random Korean #1 or Random Korean #2 wins any given tournament?
I don't, and why should I? I don't know anything about the player which would make me want to empathize with him and in 6 months he'll probably be forgotten anyways.
The players rise and fall way too quickly for me to feel comfortable rooting for any of them (and the teams are generally too faceless for people to become fanboys of a whole team) - but the casters stay around, they explain to us the action in a way that makes us empathize and they actually care about building/developing their brand.
A good caster is able to salvage a bad game but a good player will never be able to overcome a bad caster.
The spectator pays for entertainment, not for results, yet most players seem to think that they can solely focus on providing results (as has been mentioned a few times already, Team EG is a noteable exception in this respect).
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I don't quite understand this point of view. He seems to be putting part of the blame solely on the casters themselves. (I realise some of it is placed on the community too).
The most popular casters (Day9, Tastosis) used to be pro players, do a LOT for the game, and actually learn about the game as well as passing on that information.
The less popular casters (TotalHobnob, JP etc) are less popular BECAUSE they don't give as insightful commentary. I know I'm far more likely to listen to, for example, Idra's thoughts on a game as opposed to JP's thoughts.
The problem of Players vs Casters is a result of the lack of media. Anytime I've heard casters talk about players, they will normally hype the player, and oftentimes promote a player as well. However the casters are the ONLY media these players really have. We don't have tabloid newspapers that talk all about the players, so the players are naturally less exposed. A caster will cast 100 games, but a player will only have 10 games of him cast. (random numbers). In this situation, who will the audience see and empathise more with?
A lot of this is down to the players though. They don't put themselves out there, how can they be expected to gain more support and exposure? I barely know anything about ClouD, other than he's a player. I know the odd bits and pieces. Before this vlog, I'd never seen anything about him outside his stream. Where's his attempts to promote himself?
A player can't be defined just because they play well. There are a trillion billion players (give or take  ), but not many casters. The top players are more or less as popular as the top casters. But then for every pair of casters, there's 50 pro players. Made up numbers again, but you get the point. If a player wants to be recognised, they have to DO something about it. They have far more people they need to stand out from than casters do. It doesn't help that a lot of players simply aren't outgoing or charismatic people like sports stars tend to be. But casters are.
The onus is on the players, not on the viewer, and not on the caster.
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When I watch a game and I see a caster say something completely 100% fucking wrong it takes me out of the atmosphere of the game as I immediately think - no - that is not correct. Sometimes a caster says a player is about to lose when both players traded evenly. There's a myriad of examples that everyone here will be familiar with.
These are things that often one does not need to have an advanced knowledge of the game. For example, when a caster says a player is going all-in right after he plants an expansion down. All this takes is looking at the game. Often the casters have more information than we do as they have their own computer they are looking at things on that we don't see - checking the production tab when we can't.
For some people this is tolerable, but I know that for myself and many other people it is the top reason for possibly not enjoying watching Starcraft 2 - because it is so fucking annoying. I think people are mischaracterising Cloud's comments as attacks on good casters, as is evidenced by the people rushing to the defence of people like Artosis and Day[9]. No-one is having a go at these guys and the other great casters. They are awesome, more power to them, we love them.
It is only the bad casters. When you hear something blatantly wrong in a cast, you cannot help but think to yourself "what the fuck did he just say lol" or maybe you are a "FUCK YOU MAN" instead lol. Either way, it is a reflex and it just takes me out of the game, every time. And the thing I hate the most is when I am watching a game, not waiting for the next bit of action, but wondering when a caster is going to make his next wrong call. That is literally the experience for me - I am wondering when they are going to say something wrong next. There is an easy way for casters to fix their casting and that is get to high masters on their servers - simple as that. Everyone knows it. No-one beyond diamond makes half the calls these guys make... seriously lol.
BTW if you want to see the kind of awesome quality casting duos we can get - go look at ToD and RotterDaM cast the GomTV Warcraft 3 Invitational back in 2009 - http://www.gomtv.net/gwi/. I still remember this series because I was laughing so much all the time and getting so much insight into the game. I felt the anxiety from the suspense, I felt excited, and also I felt I had secret insight into the game that almost no-one else had from ToD and RotterDaM's commentary all the way through the game. Now ToD was one of the best WC3 players ever, and people would say one of the top 3 Human players and we don't have someone of that skill casting SC2. Sure - but this is what is possible and after seeing high quality casting I really don't think people will want anything else.
100% agree with Cloud and if I am going to spend my money paying for casts and streams I 100% want casters to be working their ass off for the awesome opportunity they have.
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On May 08 2012 22:09 nebffa wrote:When I watch a game and I see a caster say something completely 100% fucking wrong it takes me out of the atmosphere of the game as I immediately think - no - that is not correct. Sometimes a caster says a player is about to lose when both players traded evenly. There's a myriad of examples that everyone here will be familiar with. These are things that often one does not need to have an advanced knowledge of the game. For example, when a caster says a player is going all-in right after he plants an expansion down. All this takes is looking at the game. Often the casters have more information than we do as they have their own computer they are looking at things on that we don't see - checking the production tab when we can't. For some people this is tolerable, but I know that for myself and many other people it is the top reason for possibly not enjoying watching Starcraft 2 - because it is so fucking annoying. I think people are mischaracterising Cloud's comments as attacks on good casters, as is evidenced by the people rushing to the defence of people like Artosis and Day[9]. No-one is having a go at these guys and the other great casters. They are awesome, more power to them, we love them. It is only the bad casters. When you hear something blatantly wrong in a cast, you cannot help but think to yourself "what the fuck did he just say lol" or maybe you are a "FUCK YOU MAN" instead lol. Either way, it is a reflex and it just takes me out of the game, every time. And the thing I hate the most is when I am watching a game, not waiting for the next bit of action, but wondering when a caster is going to make his next wrong call. That is literally the experience for me - I am wondering when they are going to say something wrong next. There is an easy way for casters to fix their casting and that is get to high masters on their servers - simple as that. Everyone knows it. No-one beyond diamond makes half the calls these guys make... seriously lol. BTW if you want to see the kind of awesome quality casting duos we can get - go look at ToD and RotterDaM cast the GomTV Warcraft 3 Invitational back in 2009 - http://www.gomtv.net/gwi/. I still remember this series because I was laughing so much all the time and getting so much insight into the game. I felt the anxiety from the suspense, I felt excited, and also I felt I had secret insight into the game that almost no-one else had from ToD and RotterDaM's commentary all the way through the game. Now ToD was one of the best WC3 players ever, and people would say one of the top 3 Human players and we don't have someone of that skill casting SC2. Sure - but this is what is possible and after seeing high quality casting I really don't think people will want anything else. 100% agree with Cloud and if I am going to spend my money paying for casts and streams I 100% want casters to be working their ass off for the awesome opportunity they have.
this is absolute insanity. good and bad are subjective. there is no way we can all get this. anyways what do you want, artosis in 6 different countries simultaneously? its ultra insanity that you think casters arent working their asses off at any level. what do you know about the caster world? good grief charlie brown
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On May 08 2012 22:21 Disposition1989 wrote:Show nested quote +On May 08 2012 22:09 nebffa wrote:When I watch a game and I see a caster say something completely 100% fucking wrong it takes me out of the atmosphere of the game as I immediately think - no - that is not correct. Sometimes a caster says a player is about to lose when both players traded evenly. There's a myriad of examples that everyone here will be familiar with. These are things that often one does not need to have an advanced knowledge of the game. For example, when a caster says a player is going all-in right after he plants an expansion down. All this takes is looking at the game. Often the casters have more information than we do as they have their own computer they are looking at things on that we don't see - checking the production tab when we can't. For some people this is tolerable, but I know that for myself and many other people it is the top reason for possibly not enjoying watching Starcraft 2 - because it is so fucking annoying. I think people are mischaracterising Cloud's comments as attacks on good casters, as is evidenced by the people rushing to the defence of people like Artosis and Day[9]. No-one is having a go at these guys and the other great casters. They are awesome, more power to them, we love them. It is only the bad casters. When you hear something blatantly wrong in a cast, you cannot help but think to yourself "what the fuck did he just say lol" or maybe you are a "FUCK YOU MAN" instead lol. Either way, it is a reflex and it just takes me out of the game, every time. And the thing I hate the most is when I am watching a game, not waiting for the next bit of action, but wondering when a caster is going to make his next wrong call. That is literally the experience for me - I am wondering when they are going to say something wrong next. There is an easy way for casters to fix their casting and that is get to high masters on their servers - simple as that. Everyone knows it. No-one beyond diamond makes half the calls these guys make... seriously lol. BTW if you want to see the kind of awesome quality casting duos we can get - go look at ToD and RotterDaM cast the GomTV Warcraft 3 Invitational back in 2009 - http://www.gomtv.net/gwi/. I still remember this series because I was laughing so much all the time and getting so much insight into the game. I felt the anxiety from the suspense, I felt excited, and also I felt I had secret insight into the game that almost no-one else had from ToD and RotterDaM's commentary all the way through the game. Now ToD was one of the best WC3 players ever, and people would say one of the top 3 Human players and we don't have someone of that skill casting SC2. Sure - but this is what is possible and after seeing high quality casting I really don't think people will want anything else. 100% agree with Cloud and if I am going to spend my money paying for casts and streams I 100% want casters to be working their ass off for the awesome opportunity they have. this is absolute insanity. good and bad are subjective. there is no way we can all get this. anyways what do you want, artosis in 6 different countries simultaneously? its ultra insanity that you think casters arent working their asses off at any level. what do you know about the caster world? good grief charlie brown
I knew someone like you would come out and have some negative comment about what I said. It is obvious a lot of casters have not been working on their casting, because it is poor. How else do you tell someone's been working hard at something? Where else do you look other than at the results? Yes, the results of a lot of casters are awesome. The casters that improve over time I love, I think it's awesome they are working at their casting because they know it makes a difference for them and for us.
But nooooo heaven forbid we criticise casters that detract from the experience. We can't do that. Because they're working at it??? If a caster is making the regular mistakes an unskilled or untrained caster, what is making you think they are working hard?
EDIT: Oh and ps nice how you said "its ultra insanity that you think casters arent working their asses off at any level". What exaggeration and hyperbolae. I never said anything close to that - I said some casters are awesome, some casters are not. I did not comment on whether casters are working hard or not.
For the record - the casters that are improving over time and that are working hard at improving their casting; I think they're AWESOME.
However I never made a mention of this and you completely exaggerated what I said to make me look like a jerk. My post, and Cloud's too for that matter, is aimed at casters that make novice mistakes, obviously do not know what they are talking about, and are not making a proper effort for what they are getting paid to do. Please do not mischaracterise my post more
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On May 08 2012 22:35 nebffa wrote:Show nested quote +On May 08 2012 22:21 Disposition1989 wrote:On May 08 2012 22:09 nebffa wrote:When I watch a game and I see a caster say something completely 100% fucking wrong it takes me out of the atmosphere of the game as I immediately think - no - that is not correct. Sometimes a caster says a player is about to lose when both players traded evenly. There's a myriad of examples that everyone here will be familiar with. These are things that often one does not need to have an advanced knowledge of the game. For example, when a caster says a player is going all-in right after he plants an expansion down. All this takes is looking at the game. Often the casters have more information than we do as they have their own computer they are looking at things on that we don't see - checking the production tab when we can't. For some people this is tolerable, but I know that for myself and many other people it is the top reason for possibly not enjoying watching Starcraft 2 - because it is so fucking annoying. I think people are mischaracterising Cloud's comments as attacks on good casters, as is evidenced by the people rushing to the defence of people like Artosis and Day[9]. No-one is having a go at these guys and the other great casters. They are awesome, more power to them, we love them. It is only the bad casters. When you hear something blatantly wrong in a cast, you cannot help but think to yourself "what the fuck did he just say lol" or maybe you are a "FUCK YOU MAN" instead lol. Either way, it is a reflex and it just takes me out of the game, every time. And the thing I hate the most is when I am watching a game, not waiting for the next bit of action, but wondering when a caster is going to make his next wrong call. That is literally the experience for me - I am wondering when they are going to say something wrong next. There is an easy way for casters to fix their casting and that is get to high masters on their servers - simple as that. Everyone knows it. No-one beyond diamond makes half the calls these guys make... seriously lol. BTW if you want to see the kind of awesome quality casting duos we can get - go look at ToD and RotterDaM cast the GomTV Warcraft 3 Invitational back in 2009 - http://www.gomtv.net/gwi/. I still remember this series because I was laughing so much all the time and getting so much insight into the game. I felt the anxiety from the suspense, I felt excited, and also I felt I had secret insight into the game that almost no-one else had from ToD and RotterDaM's commentary all the way through the game. Now ToD was one of the best WC3 players ever, and people would say one of the top 3 Human players and we don't have someone of that skill casting SC2. Sure - but this is what is possible and after seeing high quality casting I really don't think people will want anything else. 100% agree with Cloud and if I am going to spend my money paying for casts and streams I 100% want casters to be working their ass off for the awesome opportunity they have. this is absolute insanity. good and bad are subjective. there is no way we can all get this. anyways what do you want, artosis in 6 different countries simultaneously? its ultra insanity that you think casters arent working their asses off at any level. what do you know about the caster world? good grief charlie brown I knew someone like you would come out and have some negative comment about what I said. It is obvious a lot of casters have not been working on their casting, because it is poor. How else do you tell someone's been working hard at something? Where else do you look other than at the results? Yes, the results of a lot of casters are awesome. The casters that improve over time I love, I think it's awesome they are working at their casting because they know it makes a difference for them and for us. But nooooo heaven forbid we criticise casters that detract from the experience. We can't do that. Because they're working at it??? If a caster is making the regular mistakes an unskilled or untrained caster, what is making you think they are working hard? EDIT: Oh and ps nice how you said "its ultra insanity that you think casters arent working their asses off at any level". What exaggeration and hyperbolae. I never said anything close to that - I said some casters are awesome, some casters are not. I did not comment on whether casters are working hard or not. For the record - the casters that are improving over time and that are working hard at improving their casting; I think they're AWESOME. However I never made a mention of this and you completely exaggerated what I said to make me look like a jerk. My post, and Cloud's too for that matter, is aimed at casters that make novice mistakes, obviously do not know what they are talking about, and are not making a proper effort for what they are getting paid to do. Please do not mischaracterise my post more
They're either lazy or they just know shit all about the game, because with nearly all the casters, just like cloud said, the lack of knowledge, wrong calls etc is painfully obvious to see. Everyone says Tasteless is amazing, was incredible at casting in brood war etc but I never played brood war and all I see in him is a very, very mediocre sc2 caster. Seems like a nice guy though.
There are others.. PainUser for example used to be a pretty solid NA terran, i tuned into his stream the other day and he literally looked worse than me, was lowish masters and dropping games to diamond players. He's obviously not focusing hard on sc2 right now, and it surely is affecting his casting.
I just want greater professionalism. As I always said, Apollo is probably the only one that actually seems to know a decent amount about every single player he casts. I mean wrong calls and insight can be forgiven, but at least know about what's going on in the sc2 universe ffs.
I also agree with ClouD that many, many progamers would make far better commentators. Some of my favourite casting ever was at the HomeStory Cups where all the players did a lot of commentary. ClouD himself was pretty funny to listen to casting GoOdy's games 
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who knew bad casters was getting paid well. i always thought they struggle with rent.
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Posted in the wrong thread accidently, sorry :/
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I agree with most of what Cloud is saying, but he presents it badly in this video. I think it's good and important to highlight that there's a severe lack of good analytical casters (and he has balls for calling out day9, I agree with him but it's a deathtrap considering day9s fanbase). Because of this lack of good analytical casters, it seems tournaments are simply going for play by play casters, which is becoming a problem. Having a good play by play caster with a good analytical caster is awesome, but when you get to the point where you have a good play by play caster with a very mediocre analytical caster, it's about as bad as simply having two good play by play casters... yeah, they talk about what is happening, but it isn't doing anything else for you.
I really feel casters need to man up and and start spending time with the game. Play by play casters who people enjoy and who do it well don't need to work too hard, but people like Apollo (who I personally think is one of the better casters) really need to keep their game and player knowledge crisp. Being a caster is hard, sure, but watching games and reading up on recent tactics etc honestly isn't a job, it's being paid to have fun. Caster is a fantastic job, I'm sure most people who watch SC2 regularly secretly wish they could be good famous casters... so if you're a decently famous caster and you feel targeted by this video, for god sake, put more effort into your knowledge and you'll be awesome.
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I lol every time players talk about how sc2 progaming is hard work. Like you are lifting bricks or something. Don't get me wrong, I understand that it may take a lot of time and talent to be a programer, but it's not hard work. Imo even being a store clerk is harder cause it boring as shit - you dont get to play the game you hopefully enjoy.
Also pro gamer life may be difficult (need to put in hours to stay relevant but lots make little $), but progamer work is not hard, unless you actually hate the game you are playing.
I agree with Cloud that casters should take more time to learn the game, but as soon as I saw the bit about players working hard, couldn't take the rest seriously. Wanted to tell him to go get the easy regular job.. no offense intended, but he'll probably make more money too
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Sweden33719 Posts
Both the above posts are wrong about one thing, which is this idea that somehow progaming or casting is not hard work because you are doing something fun --- doing something for a living automatically changes that thing into something that it wasn't before.
Lots of progamers do in fact not love the game anymore, and IMO that is the biggest reason for people falling off the older they get because it's hard to keep up with people who are actually passionate about what they do - which generally tends to be easier to be the younger/less time you have spent on it.
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Makes sense but that's why I included the "hopefully you enjoy" and "as long as you dont have the game" bits
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Tbh the game isnt even close to finished yet,and has major flaws in keeping the long term motivation up,i mean you are completely lost in the game.
No social interaction,no chatrooms which are deserving the word.
As a casual you only have the shitladder,i think i lost 50% of the games intentionally,cause i didn´t have the matchup i wanted.
Then they even said,they will bann people if they loose intentionally,which is the greatest farce i can imagine,keeping in mind they did not do their job of making the game better or more interesting.
I played Terran cuz of the easy follow up from the campaign,but it gets boring as fuck.
I quit the game therefore and have absolutely no regret doing it.
If I imagine playing 10 hours a day,i would smash the damn thing out of the window.
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On May 09 2012 00:40 iokke wrote:
I lol every time players talk about how sc2 progaming is hard work. Like you are lifting bricks or something. Don't get me wrong, I understand that it may take a lot of time and talent to be a programer, but it's not hard work. Imo even being a store clerk is harder cause it boring as shit - you dont get to play the game you hopefully enjoy.
Also pro gamer life may be difficult (need to put in hours to stay relevant but lots make little $), but progamer work is not hard, unless you actually hate the game you are playing.
I agree with Cloud that casters should take more time to learn the game, but as soon as I saw the bit about players working hard, couldn't take the rest seriously. Wanted to tell him to go get the easy regular job.. no offense intended, but he'll probably make more money too
i would say to actually make something of yourself in progaming is definitely a harder job than a store clerk. just because its a fun game to play doesnt make it any less hard to be a progamer as a job...that is not a logical conclusion. fun jobs can be hard as shit. i know guys who love working construction but its hard fucking work. it might be easier mentally to handle having to do progaming 'work' instead of running a cash register or bagging groceries but what about if you work 10-12hr a day and are pretty good but have no exposure/breakout result? you get very close in many qualifiers and cups and just dont get the win? it really fucks with your brain.
being a store clerk is boring, and may be mentally hard to handle doing such meaningless tasks, but its easy as FUCK. how can you say ringing people up or bagging groceries is MORE COMPLEX than progaming? hell it doesnt even take any physical fucking effort...at least if you used a factory worker as an example you could say yes, they exert more physical energy and can be considered more difficult in that manner.
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After considering the facts.
I have one word (technically 2)
Day[9]
If you doubt go watch his 100th Daily
Also he took his OWN time without getting paid to sign my poster at Blizzcon.
And Husky is legit too, his quirkyness is a nice comic relief.
Nuff said imho
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On May 09 2012 01:27 SayGen wrote:
After considering the facts.
I have one word (technically 2)
Day[9]
If you doubt go watch his 100th Daily
Also he took his OWN time without getting paid to sign my poster at Blizzcon.
And Husky is legit too, his quirkyness is a nice comic relief.
Nuff said imho
what does any of that has to do with the quality of their casting? cloud wasnt doubting any casters passion but their skill.
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i don't understand why if u do alot for the community automatically means you're a good caster.
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EPT
