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On May 09 2012 01:30 clownfish wrote:Show nested quote +On May 09 2012 01:27 SayGen wrote:
After considering the facts.
I have one word (technically 2)
Day[9]
If you doubt go watch his 100th Daily
Also he took his OWN time without getting paid to sign my poster at Blizzcon.
And Husky is legit too, his quirkyness is a nice comic relief.
Nuff said imho
what does any of that has to do with the quality of their casting? cloud wasnt doubting any casters passion but their skill.
Day[9] daily. who spends SEVERAL hours a week trying to teach people starcraft and takes time to carefully analyse games. He goes above and beyond trying to udnerstand as well as TEACH.
Only a few American casters are less than good (not caster bashing) but HD is a little slow on the uptake but at least he plays in tounrys at a master level.
So long as the caster actually plays I can forgive alot.
Husky plays, Diamond Toss
Day 9 plays, HD plays, Artosis, Tasteless, they all play.
How better to learn the game than to play.
also all the caster that I just mentioned ask actuvily on youtube for suggestions.
If you got beef why not throw them a line.
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I agree with Jinro- even if you enjoy something doesn't mean you don't work hard at it...and there will be times when you just don't feel like doing something even if you enjoy it, but skipping those hours of practice are unacceptable, or going to a fan event is not an option, fun or not.
As for the OP...I agree with Cloud about the main points..but his arguments went around in circles and repeated themselves several times..
I will say you gotta break casters into categories and each group is held to a different standard..
Analytical: This is the toughest job...requires high level sc skill, keeping up with the meta games, lots of game knowledge and really good insight. VERY FEW PEOPLE can achieve a good job at this role, and it is most frustrating to watch people fail at it.
Good (and probably only) examples of analytical casters: Artosis (by far the best), Wolf
Many pro players could transition to this role with practice and hard work - see grubby at MLG..I think tyler would be amazing at this eventually.
Play by Play/Entertainment: This is much easier, requires much less knowledge, but being correct is important. Usually helps to be entertaining, have a good voice, and be able to engage the audience although this can be done as playing off Co Caster like tastosis and bitterdam do the best.
Good examples of Play by Play: Totalbiscuit (so good at it), Catspajamas
Caster Hybrids- this is usually a solo caster or someone whos part of a team that just makes everything so much better, provides a little bit of both sides of casting. This is hard but contains elements of both categories so can often get away with a little deficiency in game skill or knowledge of the current metagame etc. Entertainment factor comes into play a lot with these.
Good examples: Tasteless, Day 9, Apollo, Doa, Incontrol, Bitterdam ( they both seem to fit this mold and are really great as a team. I would say Rotterdam is better solo, Mr. Bitter is a little too biased both about races and players (omg foreigner bias ridiculous with him). Khaldor and JP are improving but not there yet imo.
Not going to go down the list of bad casters, as that is bad taste, but overall most everyone else is not very good lol. I also think there are different standards for casting different things too...Foreign events you can get away with a lot more than you can when you are casting a full league like NASL or Korea in general. Korea the metagame is such a factor there and it really helps when casters keep up with it, when they know who is up and coming, because the foreign scene needs to know about the players to get behind them. GSL is also the premier league, and I personally just have such little tolerance for poor casting in that league. TBH the only time ive enjoyed casting in the GSL outside of Tastosis is WolfTosis and once DoaWolf got used to each other...qxc with wolf was pretty good sometimes.
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The thing that people don't understand is that even though some casters don't put enough work into their casting, a lot of them are working their ass off for the community. A lot of peOple use Husky as an example of someone who needs to improve their game knowledge. But at the same time he's working his ass off preparing things for the community. The geforce pr/am is a good example. Day 9 and husky basically prepared that event while geforce, even though provided the opportunity and money, did very little in managing it. Every person doesnt need to be an analytical commentator anyway. Analytical commentators also strive for a good play by play co-caster. Artosis mentioned in a recent state of the game the joy he gets when he commentates with husky. Even though total biscuit is in gold league he still brings a very bright personality to the cast and at the same time is working his ass off. Not only does he run the shoutcraft tournaments but he sponsors bling, and was even doing this cast games for certain players and in return give them money. To say someone like Total buiscuit doesn't do enough is clearly not factoring in everything . (BTW don't say anythingabout how
Korean casters know so much more than other casters they have a script that a team produces. It is an entirely different median). Yes some casters in our community don't work hard enough and maybe the only way to get them to improve is publically announcing his opinions. But it is an unfair assumption that all play by play casters don't work hard.
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Growing pains imo. High demand for casters as more and more comps are popping up and that includes a mix of old school ex-players/scene-sters and those new to the scene (WOL beta-ish). Lots of people getting involved with varying levels of skill so it's natural some won't be as 'good' as others.
There are common themes in what people look for in casters - but at the end of the day its personal preference. If X percentage of people like a particular caster or casting duo they are likely to get more work. They might be popular due to their personalities, their knowledge, dynamics, etc. If those casters aren't good at the things you value then that is likely to push you to make decisions on what you watch or if you just mute the cast.
As a pro Cloud has more knowledge/exp to judge casters on - he is aware of things that I would absolutely miss as I just don't know enough about the game or playing at that level. But he isn't representative of most viewers. There are plenty of TLer's who know an awful lot but aren't progammers. But there are waaaay more folk who don't have that level of skill/knowledge but still love to play and watch SC2. That's where it comes back preference.
I agree with him in that you want the best casting possible - A caster that can make that knowledge accessible to viewers while being fun, engaging and current in the scene would be awesome. But most, if not all, current casters have strengths and weaknesses. We've seen heaps of threads from casters looking to get feedback to help them improve - that is vital if a lot of folks don't think you are up to standard.You might be forgiven for not being 100% awesome if you are actively seeking to improve but if you aren't...
I don't agree with comments that casters don't work hard - that is elitest crap imo. People can be working their asses off and improving slowly over time. It's not like someone spends a couple of weeks studying hardout and suddenly becomes a gosu caster - it takes time.
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I believe that the reason why casters are so popular compared to players is because of the tournament format system we use in the west.
1. Most western leagues feature way too many players for spectators to track. For players, screen time is very diluted. When you have a 256+ player pool, there's only so much screen time you can give each player. But for casters, screen time is very dense. The spectator only gets 30-60 minutes to form a relationship with a player who does well in a tournament, like a Huk or Idra. But the spectator gets 6-18 hours to form a relationship with a caster.
2. Most western leagues are one-off events independent of each other, which make it very difficult to create player storylines. Even GSL falls victim to this because their players also play in other leagues. You don't get to "know" a player *just* by watching GSL, you've also got to watch MLG IPL NASL in order to track that player's progress. It's exhausting, and only the most die-hard fans of a particular player will go through that. But on the other hand, casters tend to remain constant within leagues. If you only watch MLG, then you can't count on specific players like Nestea showing up and making it onscreen...but you can count on seeing specific casters like Day9, DJWheat, JP, etc.
3. The game is still too young to produce players worthy of celebrity. There's been 14 GSLs, but the most that anybody's ever won is 3. We need much more time for truly dominant players to arise, like Flash/Bisu/Jaedong in BW.
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On May 09 2012 00:45 Liquid`Jinro wrote:
Both the above posts are wrong about one thing, which is this idea that somehow progaming or casting is not hard work because you are doing something fun --- doing something for a living automatically changes that thing into something that it wasn't before.
Lots of progamers do in fact not love the game anymore, and IMO that is the biggest reason for people falling off the older they get because it's hard to keep up with people who are actually passionate about what they do - which generally tends to be easier to be the younger/less time you have spent on it.
Are you one of those, who is frustated with the game? I am curious.
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On May 05 2012 02:02 NHL Fever wrote:
In nearly all areas of life, the same rule applies. The people who want something to 'change', are almost never the people actually willing to change it or invest in it in any way. They are also usually the biggest complainers, and the ones who feel they are most entitled to things. They have tons of ideas of who things 'should' be. Health care should be free, tuition should be free, jobs should be abundant and easy. etc. And who should provide those things....well its always the same answer......'somebody else' should do it. The government, a regulating body, a spontaneous movement of people in that individuals interest.....anything except accepting the hard work and responsibility of making something happen for oneself.
If you don't like the caster/player situation, than F@#*ing do something about it. If you think the top casters make too much and lower casters should be given a shot, then when you tune to watch sc2, don't watch anything by the top casters. That's how your message will accross most effectively. Or if you think casters make too much for the work......well then take that opening and become a caster. But if you still watch the top casters, and if you still pay for events that use them, you ARE the problem that you are complaining about. If a wheat farmer complains that the canola farmer is making more money, he can make himself angry and create dissent with his neighbor by whining about it. But the better option is to become a canola farmer himself.
It never ceases to amaze how many people will hate on people for being successful, but would never put in the effort to become successful themselves.
You know what's unfair? I have to work for a living and Paris Hilton does not. Somebody should do something about that! Hey don't look at me.
Or how about they don't want to do it. Such as myself. I'm very happy with where I am and passionate about what I do.
I have no reason to change all that by entering that void. In order to keep the lifestyle in which I live I couldn't throw that all away by entering into the competitive gaming scene again. Plus, I have the been there done that attitude as well. Why would I want to come back and start from scratch?
I know there are a lot of other guys on deck. Let them hit the home run.
Plus, we already seeing the screwy louie's write people off (the next step when people are pissy about certain things). You don't really have any other alternatives when it comes to certain casts in order to watch. That's why a lot of people hit that mute button. I don't need to hear somebody else talking to enjoy the game. I can follow the action myself.
It is what it is.
No such thing as bad publicity. Gamers will bitch and moan all they want yet they still buy into all the crap just like anyone else. As I've said before, our industry is one of the worst when it comes to consumerism.
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I agree with Cloud on this topic. Casters should at the MINIMUM try get better at the game, even if they are play by play. I think people would be less inclined to support for example Totalbiscuit if they followed his twitter feed.
It's filled with hate towards Blizzard games as well as vile responses to fans of WoW and Diablo for example.
He was promoting Path of Exile on his twitter the other day and I asked him why he was talking about that instead of Diablo III which was being released next week, and he basically said it was shit and that I was just a " blizzard fanboi " ( Forgetting that he uses a troll from World of Warcraft as his avatar, as well as most of his subscribers came from his beta footage ).
One would have to wonder how a person that makes his livelihood lives with himself working on casting games by a company he hates, and actively throws itsults at can live with himself.
I played some practice matches with him a long time ago, went easy on him and tried to teach him to become better at the game ( I suck at starcraft episode 16 & 17 ) and he seemed like a nice lad there, but I know he has described himself as depressed and " not a happy man " in his videoblog...
I see John Bain ( Totalbiscuit ) as a good example of a person doing this JUST for the money and not deserving of work in this field if / when better casters start showing up, unless he gets his act together and at least eases on the insults on his soon to be ex-fans.
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what's with the showmatch against tlo ?
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On May 10 2012 03:54 absalom86 wrote:
I agree with Cloud on this topic. Casters should at the MINIMUM try get better at the game, even if they are play by play. I think people would be less inclined to support for example Totalbiscuit if they followed his twitter feed.
It's filled with hate towards Blizzard games as well as vile responses to fans of WoW and Diablo for example.
He was promoting Path of Exile on his twitter the other day and I asked him why he was talking about that instead of Diablo III which was being released next week, and he basically said it was shit and that I was just a " blizzard fanboi " ( Forgetting that he uses a troll from World of Warcraft as his avatar, as well as most of his subscribers came from his beta footage ).
One would have to wonder how a person that makes his livelihood lives with himself working on casting games by a company he hates, and actively throws itsults at can live with himself.
I played some practice matches with him a long time ago, went easy on him and tried to teach him to become better at the game ( I suck at starcraft episode 16 & 17 ) and he seemed like a nice lad there, but I know he has described himself as depressed and " not a happy man " in his videoblog...
I see John Bain ( Totalbiscuit ) as a good example of a person doing this JUST for the money and not deserving of work in this field if / when better casters start showing up, unless he gets his act together and at least eases on the insults on his soon to be ex-fans.
Even though I partly agree with you, Totalbiscuit does "deserve" to work in whatever business he wants to. He's a great shoutcaster, he even sponsers a player if I remember correctly. He's very active and can get you hooked while watched a tournament. But, like I said, I do partly agree with you.
He is one of the castes that really needs to learn more about what he talking about. Sometimes it seems he just rambles about something, just to talk about somthing, even though its not exactly whats going on in the game. I like TB, really do, if he had the knowledge of apollo or rotterdam he would be the perfect caster. But I remember saying in another post that he community needs more former pro's casting, rather then the "average joe" (playbyplay)
All the stuff about him hating blizzard and saying you are a fanboy, I know nothing about. I guess its between you and him personally.
edit:
On May 10 2012 23:12 TotalBiscuit wrote:
Moronic fanboi
Not really the way to get people behind you.
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That's actually a typical response from TB. ;>
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TB is pretty nice, terrible caster but great pillar of community imho.
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On May 11 2012 07:12 TheRealArtemis wrote:Show nested quote +On May 10 2012 03:54 absalom86 wrote:
I agree with Cloud on this topic. Casters should at the MINIMUM try get better at the game, even if they are play by play. I think people would be less inclined to support for example Totalbiscuit if they followed his twitter feed.
It's filled with hate towards Blizzard games as well as vile responses to fans of WoW and Diablo for example.
He was promoting Path of Exile on his twitter the other day and I asked him why he was talking about that instead of Diablo III which was being released next week, and he basically said it was shit and that I was just a " blizzard fanboi " ( Forgetting that he uses a troll from World of Warcraft as his avatar, as well as most of his subscribers came from his beta footage ).
One would have to wonder how a person that makes his livelihood lives with himself working on casting games by a company he hates, and actively throws itsults at can live with himself.
I played some practice matches with him a long time ago, went easy on him and tried to teach him to become better at the game ( I suck at starcraft episode 16 & 17 ) and he seemed like a nice lad there, but I know he has described himself as depressed and " not a happy man " in his videoblog...
I see John Bain ( Totalbiscuit ) as a good example of a person doing this JUST for the money and not deserving of work in this field if / when better casters start showing up, unless he gets his act together and at least eases on the insults on his soon to be ex-fans. Even though I partly agree with you, Totalbiscuit does "deserve" to work in whatever business he wants to. He's a great shoutcaster, he even sponsers a player if I remember correctly. He's very active and can get you hooked while watched a tournament. But, like I said, I do partly agree with you. He is one of the castes that really needs to learn more about what he talking about. Sometimes it seems he just rambles about something, just to talk about somthing, even though its not exactly whats going on in the game. I like TB, really do, if he had the knowledge of apollo or rotterdam he would be the perfect caster. But I remember saying in another post that he community needs more former pro's casting, rather then the "average joe" (playbyplay) All the stuff about him hating blizzard and saying you are a fanboy, I know nothing about. I guess its between you and him personally. edit: Not really the way to get people behind you.
Don't need people behind me, got enough of those already. Buttmad Diablo 3 fanbois are the not the kind of people you wanna be associated with, absalom is unbalanced bordering on psychophathic because I dared not care about a game he liked. That should tell you all you need to know.
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I don't think all casters need to be pro gamers but I definitely expect them to be at least in master league. Tournament organizers should just organize free coaching for casters :-)
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In my opinion as a quality player (hit gm, currently masters with 230 bonus pool) I've noticed how bad casters really are... Painuser especially seems to ONLY explain how poorly each player is, until finally finishing the game with the conclusion they both suck, excluding the fact he never got anywhere in his career as a player outside of a few nothings here and there... I loved his comment on day[9] because god damint day[9] has changed... Before in BW he was analytical and honest, but now he tries to baby his cast for the intellectually lacking individuals who can't see things, and in doing so tends to over analyse situations... God I miss old Sean Plott, but that being said because of his humour I always love his casting. His comment on tasteless was true, it seems like he's along for the ride, but his position as a caster is really for the show, artosis is for the game...
All in all, if I had a decent computer and salary (my voice is definitely clean through enough) I know that personally I could do a damn better job then most of the casters (excluding the fav's like artosis, MrBitter [who's voice is so damn good] Totalbiscuit, day9, geoff, khaldor and the few few others I might be forgetting)
I also LOVED his comment on orb, I have NO idea how that child got a job from EG to cast its masters cup, once he began casting I stopped watching, then they allowed people who understood the game to cast again and now I watch it every single time it's on.
Side note, I also enjoy Gretorp who is imo great for NASL and they're doing a great job.
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On May 10 2012 03:54 absalom86 wrote:
I see John Bain ( Totalbiscuit ) as a good example of a person doing this JUST for the money and not deserving of work in this field if / when better casters start showing up, unless he gets his act together and at least eases on the insults on his soon to be ex-fans.
Not going to respond to the rest of it because I don't have anything worth saying about the rest of it.
If he was doing this just for the money, he would not pump money back into the scene in his ShoutCraft tournaments - which are sponsored out of his own pocket and he has I believe stated that he barely breaks even on those, if anything, because of the prize money he pays people.
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I haven't watched the log, but it seems like with a lot of the problems raised by this community, it's stuff which stupid, bad and frustrating, but to which there isn't really a solution at present. Although players should get more money and recognition, if every player on a team suddenly got a salary of a caster, the scene would bankrupt within a week. And if every caster had their salary cut, we probably wouldn't have dedicated casters at all, because they would be too busy with other jobs. This 'stupid' situation is actually the only one which works, until the e-sports scene is nearly as big as mainstream sports and has billions of dollars poured into it each year.
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On May 10 2012 03:54 absalom86 wrote:
I agree with Cloud on this topic. Casters should at the MINIMUM try get better at the game, even if they are play by play. I think people would be less inclined to support for example Totalbiscuit if they followed his twitter feed.
It's filled with hate towards Blizzard games as well as vile responses to fans of WoW and Diablo for example.
He was promoting Path of Exile on his twitter the other day and I asked him why he was talking about that instead of Diablo III which was being released next week, and he basically said it was shit and that I was just a " blizzard fanboi " ( Forgetting that he uses a troll from World of Warcraft as his avatar, as well as most of his subscribers came from his beta footage ).
One would have to wonder how a person that makes his livelihood lives with himself working on casting games by a company he hates, and actively throws itsults at can live with himself.
I played some practice matches with him a long time ago, went easy on him and tried to teach him to become better at the game ( I suck at starcraft episode 16 & 17 ) and he seemed like a nice lad there, but I know he has described himself as depressed and " not a happy man " in his videoblog...
I see John Bain ( Totalbiscuit ) as a good example of a person doing this JUST for the money and not deserving of work in this field if / when better casters start showing up, unless he gets his act together and at least eases on the insults on his soon to be ex-fans.
I think I can safely say he would not do a show about a blizzard game for 5~ years (as well as produce countless videos about blizzard games) if he did not in fact like blizzard to some extent. I obviously won't and cannot speak for him, but i'm fairly sure giving criticism to a game/company and their business practices does not constitute "hating" them.
And I'd advise people to stop claiming that anybody is in eSports "for the money". It's ludicrous considering the fact that, well, quite frankly eSports isn't exactly a gold mine yet. If you want to get rich, your first thought might not be to cash in on the unsuspecting followers of video game tournaments.
The thing with TB and the way he "insults" his fans, is that for every fan who says something silly and is thereby mocked by their idol via twitter (a horrifying prospect indeed), there are a hundred fans who appreciate him and his attitude/way of dealing with silly people and silly statements.
TB has made it very clear in the past that he doesn't appreciate fanboys, or really, people who lack the ability to question his views at all. I believe he has every right to exercise this belief on twitter or whatever social media he wishes to employ, and as I said, people who don't like that will leave, and the people who do (who far outnumber those who don't) will continue to view and enjoy his content.
And to clarify, I'm not in any way a TotalBiscuit "fanboy" or even a fan. I don't agree with much of what he says, but I can always find myself appreciating his high standards when it comes to producing content.
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totally agree with Cloud, it's about time someone said it, kudos to you dude
glad he credited apollo, it's obvious he works hard at his casting and at the game
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EPT
