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On May 02 2012 17:25 aTnClouD wrote:Show nested quote +On May 02 2012 14:31 -orb- wrote:
I'm sorry you are seemingly emotionless and boring, Cloud. Just because you are that way does not mean everyone else is as well.
I get naturally extremely hyped from Starcraft games, and I express my emotions the way I do. It seems like you simply do not like me as a person (despite having never met me), and thus you want to badmouth me out of nowhere because I express my emotions in a way you do not like (instead you just keep your emotionless face and express nothing at all in your own vlog...).
You act as if I am somehow making more than I deserve and that I should not be so "big" as a caster because I don't live up to your standards (that you yourself cannot meet). Are you completely ignorant to the position I am in in esports? I make no money off this game other than small amounts of ad revenue. What is even going through your head? I work my ass off constantly for esports and get almost nothing in return. Who are you to say I should get even less?
You keep making absolutely ridiculous claims that it doesn't take work to become a caster. This makes you look horribly ignorant. While there are exceptions, almost all casters have had to work a ridiculous amount to achieve what they have. The amount of hours of not just learning the game but learning how to talk, what to talk about, recording commentary, building a fanbase, etc is clearly way more than you seem to think.
I think the only people in esports that work harder than casters are the truly dedicated players. Most high-level koreans, and an extremely low select few of foreigners that really care (people like naniwa, huk, etc) actually practice enough and hard enough to beat most casters in terms of amount of effort, but the majority of foreigners do not put in nearly as much effort as your average successful caster. I don't think you ever made any money from casting, I was just amazed at how much positive feedback you got back then even though I can't watch you for more than 10 minutes without thinking you are fake. It's pretty obvious to me you try really hard with a big fake smile all the time and unnecessarily moving your hands in front of the camera. I don't like you but I didn't badmouth you just for the sake of it, I just think you are one of the worst casters I've seen and I was surprised they let you cast EG masters cup as much as I'm surprised painuser casts for IGN.
Bahahaha, I never really like Cloud up until this point. If i ever come across a ClouD-poster its going right up on my wall.
You're a hero. Don't try to reason, dont let yourself get sucked into the debate, you said your piece, it was honest and 95% spot on.
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The truth has been spoken. Finally someone HAD BALLS TO SPEAK his mind.
Also, i got question for Cloud:
What do You think about casters sponsoring players like TB sponsors Bling?
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Agree with ClouD.
What makes it hard to criticize some of the very popular casters though, is that they do a lot of work for esports and the comunity in general and you can come across as an ungrateful bastard. We have to separate casting and what one does in other areas of esports.
There are only 4 or so casters that can say they are or want to be professional casters. The rest ride theire popularity train and deem it unnecessary to improve.
Mind you, there are also players that are way over hyped and popular based on anything else but skill.
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this is a real problem not only in Starcraft 2 but in general life, some people win more money without take effort, isnt a mathematic where you win more money when you deserve more money, you will need change the entire world business to make your dream come true.
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On May 01 2012 23:38 Kaitokid wrote:
the proscene only exists because we have people who practice their ass off to entertain you.
I always believed they practiced their ass off to win tournaments/money and not to entertain? Not that either things exclude each other but I mean come on, it's actually the casters that work their ass off to entertain. It's their job.
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On May 04 2012 19:46 Omgzpwnd wrote:
The truth has been spoken. Finally someone HAD BALLS TO SPEAK his mind.
Also, i got question for Cloud:
What do You think about casters sponsoring players like TB sponsors Bling?
I don't know about "balls." Cloud had little to lose and probably gained a bit simply by virtue of this thread/the video (unless he had said something Destiny/orb level). I mean, Gaulzi (the cannon rusher) had 650 viewers when I looked yesterday, in part because Day9 demonstrated his pro-level cannon rushing on the last Funday Monday. With him and with Cloud, I'm sure a lot of people were watching to see them fail, as they will watch in the future when TLO and Cloud have their showmatch.
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I agree with every ClouD said. I personally have experienced watching vods of some casts of my games and it was unbearable to watch because the caster/s had no fucking idea what they were talking about and would miss pretty much every important thing.
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On May 04 2012 14:41 Ruscour wrote:Show nested quote +On May 04 2012 14:33 dgwow wrote:On May 04 2012 10:08 Benjamin99 wrote:On May 04 2012 09:45 tuho12345 wrote:On May 03 2012 11:29 nOondn wrote:
after watch korean caster with subtitle i don't enjoy foreigner caster anymore ,they don't know what they talking about not even analyze the game and still get paid lol. Artosis said "fuck you" to you lololol Yea that was hillarius where? when? XD Although he kind of has a point lolol, the korean casters are more entertaining and informative then all of the foreign casters, even Artosis (sorry it's true, although Day9 and himself are doing a good job). Hopefully more progamers become casters as they provide good insight during games. They're more entertaining and informative for a reason, which Artosis explained, which is why your opinion is wrong. And where else? SOTG.
It my opinion and I don't care,I don't interest in listening to foriegner caster anymore I don't think if I listening to them I'll got more information than I got it my self and I fucking hate the "down time" or "Fucking stupid joke" from tatosis..
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I have to agree with almost everything Cloud said but sometimes he was too aggressive I think though I understand his frustration. Mad props to him for having the ball to say what most progamers don't say
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If you think about it in free market term. Well, there is not need to vlog about it at all.
I'd like to see him cast something too...
EDIT : I've just watched the vod... and for me Cloud is a clown with a big fat red nose!
EDIT2 : It's a shame that TakeTV let him spoke this amount of slanderous words.
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In nearly all areas of life, the same rule applies. The people who want something to 'change', are almost never the people actually willing to change it or invest in it in any way. They are also usually the biggest complainers, and the ones who feel they are most entitled to things. They have tons of ideas of who things 'should' be. Health care should be free, tuition should be free, jobs should be abundant and easy. etc. And who should provide those things....well its always the same answer......'somebody else' should do it. The government, a regulating body, a spontaneous movement of people in that individuals interest.....anything except accepting the hard work and responsibility of making something happen for oneself.
If you don't like the caster/player situation, than F@#*ing do something about it. If you think the top casters make too much and lower casters should be given a shot, then when you tune to watch sc2, don't watch anything by the top casters. That's how your message will accross most effectively. Or if you think casters make too much for the work......well then take that opening and become a caster. But if you still watch the top casters, and if you still pay for events that use them, you ARE the problem that you are complaining about. If a wheat farmer complains that the canola farmer is making more money, he can make himself angry and create dissent with his neighbor by whining about it. But the better option is to become a canola farmer himself.
It never ceases to amaze how many people will hate on people for being successful, but would never put in the effort to become successful themselves.
You know what's unfair? I have to work for a living and Paris Hilton does not. Somebody should do something about that! Hey don't look at me.
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Cloud has brought out some really good points, and InControl is spot on with his explanation in ITG.
I would love to hear pro players opinions on the high handedness of mods on TL. Since forever, they have basically enforced mindless praise for casters in all threads, in all live threads, poll threads, etc. It's banned to discuss it, unless it is hidden in some other thread, like this "Cloud's World' or 'Moletrap leaves GOM'.
They simply shut down all community feedback, like just now closed a thread, which was meant to give opinions on moletrap casting sc2 for OGN,
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=334782 by giving the reason "Poll threads are never good". Really? Poll threads are never good.. words of wisdom. Not that hard to see the personal agenda of some mods here. By the way, that poll consisted of about 1,300 people, who cared about the game, and were 99% sure to be a viewer of OGN SC2 league. Really nice going killing their feedback.
This is really in detriment to the players, viewers and the game itself. The passion of the community is taken for granted, that they will keep watching and caring about the game no matter how bad it remains. The substandard elements will never get rooted out if this goes on.
As InControl said, this is something that should keep getting discussed, but sadly this is impossible on this site. A rethink of the modding policy is in need, and influence from pro players, because their voice is the only things mods are not willing to shut down.
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On May 04 2012 23:57 Legion710 wrote:
I agree with every ClouD said. I personally have experienced watching vods of some casts of my games and it was unbearable to watch because the caster/s had no fucking idea what they were talking about and would miss pretty much every important thing.
Actually I think casters should not control the camera, they have a lot of things on their mind already so delegating that to somebody else should be a standard for high level tournaments.
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I think your vlog could be improved. You could say the same thing in 3 minutes. Maybe plan in advance to some extent what you are going to say? Good points though, I think casting is pretty bad as a whole, and now that I know enough to know it's bad, I can't stand watching most casts.
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I wasn't aware that casters'/players' salaries were public information...
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Cloud is awesome. Raw and in-your-face. Plus, he is a Brood War boy.
More power to you!
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I really don't understand the point of this vlog. It just seems like a highly subjective rant about casters. It just has this sort of hint of bitterness that some players might feel towards them. I can easily see them feeling that casting is "easy" because no matter what happens, when you go to cast a tournament, you will get payed, you will get attention and it's not relying on your performance.
On the other hands players practice and practice, go play, lose and then just go home without much of a reward. He even says so in the end. It's just the nature of the business. I know people will love to praise this for speaking his mind and because he calls out a lot of things other people agree with but are too shy to express, but in the end it just feels like, in all honesty, whining.
"Casters never lose and always get payed a lot of money, while I have to win to earn anything near that." Casters are the face and the voice of e-sports, they bring in the viewers. It's a business. More viewers, more income, and more of that income will go towards the people who brought said viewers. Simple as that. Look at NASL season 2, so many great players yet it struggled for viewers because many were on this bandwagon of hating Gretorp and Orb (both fine casters IMO). If he can't be a player without resenting casters for doing their job and getting payed more than his xth place finish at some random tournament, then he should just retire and go to school. I'm not even going to get into the fact that casters do a LOT more than just stand in front of the camera and describe a video game.
Good on him for speaking his mind and getting views, but given how transparently bitter it sounds and how he's not qualified to do any better than the people he bashes... This is why the "cool story bro" meme was invented.
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On May 05 2012 00:41 BXiT wrote:
If you think about it in free market term. Well, there is not need to vlog about it at all.
I'd like to see him cast something too...
EDIT : I've just watched the vod... and for me Cloud is a clown with a big fat red nose!
EDIT2 : It's a shame that TakeTV let him spoke this amount of slanderous words.
What the fuck "free market term" = no need to talk about anything? What is this? First semester economics?
In general Cloud made a lot of good points there. The point thats missing is that he should've argue more than to make just general statements
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On May 04 2012 14:41 Ruscour wrote:Show nested quote +On May 04 2012 14:33 dgwow wrote:On May 04 2012 10:08 Benjamin99 wrote:On May 04 2012 09:45 tuho12345 wrote:On May 03 2012 11:29 nOondn wrote:
after watch korean caster with subtitle i don't enjoy foreigner caster anymore ,they don't know what they talking about not even analyze the game and still get paid lol. Artosis said "fuck you" to you lololol Yea that was hillarius where? when? XD Although he kind of has a point lolol, the korean casters are more entertaining and informative then all of the foreign casters, even Artosis (sorry it's true, although Day9 and himself are doing a good job). Hopefully more progamers become casters as they provide good insight during games. They're more entertaining and informative for a reason, which Artosis explained, which is why your opinion is wrong. And where else? SOTG.
The "reason" Artosis did bring up is complete bullshit. A "script"? How the fuck do you want to script live matches? You can tell as a spectator its obvious theres a lot of spontaneity between the Korean casters. Maybe they have a team that does the research and brings them stats and infos, but thats just basic work, its no excuse. They are just both better entertainers and put more work in their job, that is all. Lets not be too naive about what Artosis says, specially when he defends his and his friends job. Lets just says hes not a guy that admit his errors easily.
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Some of casters yes, but some of them no. If you look at caster like Husky, yes I agree, he casts 2 games a day and recieves a lot of money for 1hour of work. But if you look at casters like Artosis, Khaldor they basically live sc2. They play it to gain trends/understanding, Khaldor does his little vlogs etc, I wouldnt say that caster is only to cast sc2, but also to be a part of community, more than the players usually.
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EPT
