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On May 03 2012 09:47 Duravi wrote:Show nested quote +On May 03 2012 02:54 MorroW wrote:
putting money aside i think most of us here would agree the room to improve in terms of enjoyment from watching is not from progamers, tour organisers or production (cameras, stage etc), when it comes to discussing those things we mostly see the casters as a failing link
the fact that we have so many people saying "i dont like x caster" or says they mute the stream, meanwhile we see players getting stronger and stronger (and more popular overall) and production values of tournaments has gone up tremendously lately aswell as prize distrubution rules format etc. everything has constantly been moving forward this last year improving while casters i feel at least are the ones who are slipping behind.
we started out with day9, artosis, tasteless and total biscuit. and after all this time we didnt really get many new casters who became like really, really good. only apollo, mrbitter and rotterdam comes to mind.
and in terms of knowledge about the game most of them kinda sit around same skill level and understanding of the game like 1 year ago, like obviously they wont get more funny and likable, so its pretty much just keeping the ball rolling and knowledge of the game they can improve.
artosis constantly keeps up with the current flow of the game and latest trends and the new maps etc while in general most casters just seem to be talking about the same general stuff they always do
now dont get offended anyone because i only speak about our casters in general is a slacking part in general in sc2, i dont just mean our current casters and about them i also mean about new rising unknown casters in general. when i look at the entire role as a whole and compare it to every other part about watching or following a tournament, thats what is still disappointing me the most
but we do have casters who really want to improve and are interested at constantly gathering more information about the game, apollo comes to mind for example. but in general i cant actually picture it in my head that the casters does any work at all when it comes to improving with the exception of actually casting and learning the game while casting
to put it in a different perspective. if you look at all the tournaments we have today, theres no tournament that we can really say "well this is just actually THE best tournament" when it comes to production and all this jazz same thing goes for the players. as they are all competing closely with each other and upping their game we see alot of constant movement and improving.
but when as far casters know artosis is widely known to be by far the most knowledgeable caster out there, and guys thats not because he is just some super talented caster. its because he on a daily basis follows as many tournaments out there as he can and is constantly learning the game on his free time. so all the casters out there who feel struck when they hear that they lack game knowledge, just whenever u have time just go watch or play sc2 from an improving perspective instead of just watching or playing out of enjoyment and being silly
no new casters are appearing these days, and the ones that are unknown or "up and coming" or still learning, well most of them are terribly disappointing and you can already say they wont make it. thats just how i feel I think the stagnation of new talent in casting is also contributing to the skill of the current casters being mostly at a standstill. There is no pressure from below, Tasteless is a great example of this, if anything his casting has gotten worse over the past year but there is no pressure for him to improve so it is pretty hard to blame him.
Speaking on why there is a lack of new caster blood, one of the major issues for upcoming/wannabe casters is that they're not pro players and they don't have the knowledge or experience in the proscene/Korean scene (I mention Korean scene because we see a lot of Korean vs Korean/foreigner games nowadays as a lot of Koreans are getting far in foreign tournaments and thus their games get featured on the main stream). Because the upcoming/wannabe casters are not pros neither are they in Korea playing the Korean ladder at a high level they cannot be sure whether the strat they think the Korean player is using is the strat that they know and thus they refrain from analysing for fear of getting it wrong and the resulting fan backlash.
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after watch korean caster with subtitle i don't enjoy foreigner caster anymore ,they don't know what they talking about not even analyze the game and still get paid lol.
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On May 03 2012 11:29 nOondn wrote:
after watch korean caster with subtitle i don't enjoy foreigner caster anymore ,they don't know what they talking about not even analyze the game and still get paid lol.
I think that is unfair to say about everyone, Artosis, Wolf, and Apollo (and even Wheat to a lesser extent), definitely prepare and do some research before they cast, and it shows. It is more that we have gotten used to the guys who don't, my biggest issue with Day 9 is that for god knows what reason he is always whispering and shouting and saying random things whenever I see him casting nowadays, which is very different from his casting if you go watch King of the Beta for instance. We viewers appreciate the backstory, and the analysis, and I think some of the responsibility is on our end to express that, if MLG thinks we just want to hear a guy shouting, they will pay a guy who just shouts to cast.
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On May 03 2012 11:49 Duravi wrote:Show nested quote +On May 03 2012 11:29 nOondn wrote:
after watch korean caster with subtitle i don't enjoy foreigner caster anymore ,they don't know what they talking about not even analyze the game and still get paid lol. I think that is unfair to say about everyone, Artosis, Wolf, and Apollo (and even Wheat to a lesser extent), definitely prepare and do some research before they cast, and it shows. It is more that we have gotten used to the guys who don't, my biggest issue with Day 9 is that for god knows what reason he is always whispering and shouting and saying random things whenever I see him casting nowadays, which is very different from his casting if you go watch King of the Beta for instance. We viewers appreciate the backstory, and the analysis, and I think some of the responsibility is on our end to express that, if MLG thinks we just want to hear a guy shouting, they will pay a guy who just shouts to cast.
+1
I really hate day9s casting. It's not that it's bad, it is just that he tries too hard / comes across as a bit of a hipster at times. I dont know how much money he makes form SC2 ( I doubt it's something you could raise a family with ) but even so, he needs to keep it coming in I guess..
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To be completely honest I couldn't care less what ClouD has to say about anything. I do not see him REGULARLY contributing to the community as a whole. Other than posting in TL. Maybe there is a niche of the community that I have not seen him in and I accept that I could completely be wrong in my assertion that he's not active.
But the first thing that I (and let me repeat I) see out of him is him pretty much taking a shit on a lot of people.
I don't care what he enjoys and what he thinks is good. Just because he can label himself a "PRO" player doesn't mean he is an expert on anything. In the video he cites that he is saying these things "for me as a player" this means a lot! What a professional player sees/wants in a casting of a game is MUUUUCH different than what the average audience member wants.
He has some really good points about a great many things but specifically "calling out" people seems bitter(even though he says he's not) and petty.
To me his good points get tainted by him trying to specifically label certain casters/players as good or bad.
Of course I am neither an expert in anything eSports related. I'm just a eSports fan. Just my opinion.
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Lol, so let me get this clear: you guys want community figures to be honest and be ¨real¨ unless its something you disagree with.
One thing is disagreeing with Cloud another is to question his character based on his opinion.He gave his opinion if you don´t like it feel free to disagree but don´t bash him based on that
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On May 02 2012 21:14 Liquid`Ret wrote:
I think that the problem isn't that casters make too much, it's just that 90% of the players make very shit money. It's compareable to minimum wage in most countries or lower.
If the two were more in balance with each other then perhaps some progamers wouldn't feel this way.
exactly my thoughts
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On May 03 2012 11:29 nOondn wrote:
after watch korean caster with subtitle i don't enjoy foreigner caster anymore ,they don't know what they talking about not even analyze the game and still get paid lol.
Artosis said "fuck you" to you lololol
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i agree with him 100%. ive felt like this since the beta and im glad someone at the top level brought this up.
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Look people there is no 'gaming god' that is obliged to come down and make everything look and feel right in the gaming world. Nor should there be. People make money based on what value they bring to the market, which is determined by what value others are willing to ascribe to them.
E-sports is nothing like real sports, or the real world. We need to wake up and realize this. For 99% of fans watching sc2, the casters are the most important part. They make the game watchable for 99% of fans. No player is capable of doing this. Think of this example: For the average fan watching, what will they enjoy more?
a) Game between Demuslim and Haypro casted by Tastosis
b) Game between DRG and MKP casted by nobody
The answer should be pretty obvious. Keep in mind the REAL WORLD when considering this, the real world is not your own elitist preferences or hardcore TL readers who would just as soon turn off the sound and analyse it themselves. It is the 99% of sc2 fans who want to tune in casually and be entertained.......you know.....the people who actually bring in the majority of the viewership dollars.
In sc2, casters deliver you the whole game. They have to tell you what's going on because you can't see everything or know about it otherwise. Compare to say football where as a fan you can continually see the ENTIRE relevant portion of the field and every peice of the play within your field of vision. You can appreciate things more easily in that setting even without commentary. In SC2 there are all kinds of things going on in every place on the map which you cannot see or know about unless it is specifically searched out and found for you.
The appropriate analogy would be in your field of view in a football game was limited to 10 x 15 yards on the field. You would be much more dependent on an commentator to tell you what's going on, and subsequently they would command a much higher relative value.
The bottom line is that replacing Tastosis/Day9 with second-tier casters is a much larger decrease in game appeal than replacing MKP with Supernova, for example. The way life works is this: The fewer people who can do what you do, the more money you make. There are dozens and dozens of people who can do what Cloud-level players can do. There are 2 people who can do what Tastosis can do. That may eventually change, but for now that is reality.
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If you look at the commentators in other sports you'll see that most of them dont have any background in sports they are commentating, usually they invite former pros to comment with them for a few games and say goodbye after that. The thing is both jobs are incredibly different in terms of requirements and cant be compared in terms of pay or attention. The caster does not have to be knowledgeble but he has to be entertaining. It is actually a good question what takes more talent to be a good caster or a good progamer. Talent is also one of the reasons why you cant compare casters and pros only on the basis of work invested. I think we should see more split casting in future where one is a professional caster and the other one is a pro (former or current). And the most important thing is if you feel that current casting is too bad go try casting yourself or encourage someone else for it who has the talent.
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On May 04 2012 09:45 tuho12345 wrote:Show nested quote +On May 03 2012 11:29 nOondn wrote:
after watch korean caster with subtitle i don't enjoy foreigner caster anymore ,they don't know what they talking about not even analyze the game and still get paid lol. Artosis said "fuck you" to you lololol
Yea that was hillarius
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sooooooo who the hell is cloud?
edit- He sure knows a lot about good casting so why isnt he casting?
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Everything he said was true. Nothing more needs to be said.
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i am hyped for the next thing he'll bring up in the next vlog, very interesting atleast, and i am sure i am not the only one who wanna know whats the next step by ClouD
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On May 04 2012 10:06 NHL Fever wrote:
Look people there is no 'gaming god' that is obliged to come down and make everything look and feel right in the gaming world. Nor should there be. People make money based on what value they bring to the market, which is determined by what value others are willing to ascribe to them.
E-sports is nothing like real sports, or the real world. We need to wake up and realize this. For 99% of fans watching sc2, the casters are the most important part. They make the game watchable for 99% of fans. No player is capable of doing this. Think of this example: For the average fan watching, what will they enjoy more?
a) Game between Demuslim and Haypro casted by Tastosis
b) Game between DRG and MKP casted by nobody
The answer should be pretty obvious. Keep in mind the REAL WORLD when considering this, the real world is not your own elitist preferences or hardcore TL readers who would just as soon turn off the sound and analyse it themselves. It is the 99% of sc2 fans who want to tune in casually and be entertained.......you know.....the people who actually bring in the majority of the viewership dollars.
In sc2, casters deliver you the whole game. They have to tell you what's going on because you can't see everything or know about it otherwise. Compare to say football where as a fan you can continually see the ENTIRE relevant portion of the field and every peice of the play within your field of vision. You can appreciate things more easily in that setting even without commentary. In SC2 there are all kinds of things going on in every place on the map which you cannot see or know about unless it is specifically searched out and found for you.
The appropriate analogy would be in your field of view in a football game was limited to 10 x 15 yards on the field. You would be much more dependent on an commentator to tell you what's going on, and subsequently they would command a much higher relative value.
The bottom line is that replacing Tastosis/Day9 with second-tier casters is a much larger decrease in game appeal than replacing MKP with Supernova, for example. The way life works is this: The fewer people who can do what you do, the more money you make. There are dozens and dozens of people who can do what Cloud-level players can do. There are 2 people who can do what Tastosis can do. That may eventually change, but for now that is reality.
Exactly what i was about to write.
Even if someone does not recognize how casters have contributed to SC2 raising (KESPA going full SC2 in the future?) and what opportunites this presents the players with, and even if one would think that many casters at the moment are sub-par, there is obviously a market for it and it seems someone is paying them all this money (that you think it's too much) to cast. Go ahead, try to become a caster as well, if you are any good you might get a chance. If too many people were good then the supply would surge and...
In my opinion this discussion is utterly stupid and pointless, community figures don't have to train 14 hours a day to become really good but the obviously put a lot of effort into it in ways that a player might not be able to understand.
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On May 04 2012 10:08 Benjamin99 wrote:Show nested quote +On May 04 2012 09:45 tuho12345 wrote:On May 03 2012 11:29 nOondn wrote:
after watch korean caster with subtitle i don't enjoy foreigner caster anymore ,they don't know what they talking about not even analyze the game and still get paid lol. Artosis said "fuck you" to you lololol Yea that was hillarius
where? when? XD
Although he kind of has a point lolol, the korean casters are more entertaining and informative then all of the foreign casters, even Artosis (sorry it's true, although Day9 and himself are doing a good job). Hopefully more progamers become casters as they provide good insight during games.
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On May 04 2012 14:33 dgwow wrote:Show nested quote +On May 04 2012 10:08 Benjamin99 wrote:On May 04 2012 09:45 tuho12345 wrote:On May 03 2012 11:29 nOondn wrote:
after watch korean caster with subtitle i don't enjoy foreigner caster anymore ,they don't know what they talking about not even analyze the game and still get paid lol. Artosis said "fuck you" to you lololol Yea that was hillarius where? when? XD Although he kind of has a point lolol, the korean casters are more entertaining and informative then all of the foreign casters, even Artosis (sorry it's true, although Day9 and himself are doing a good job). Hopefully more progamers become casters as they provide good insight during games.
They're more entertaining and informative for a reason, which Artosis explained, which is why your opinion is wrong.
And where else? SOTG.
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I just don't understand what Cloud is complaining about.
Any caster who casts a premier tournament (GSL, MLG, IEM, Dreamhack, Etc.) is essentially in the same league of casting as those who win the tournament are for playing. Cloud hasn't won anything ever. Maybe if he actually played good and won a couple tournaments people could take his opinion seriously. I mean, what has Cloud done to actually put himself in the top tier of players? The biggest tournament he has won is a GIGABYTE Cup.
This is like a college football player complaining that John Madden makes more money than him even though John Madden doesn't practice football for 10 hours a day.
EDIT:
Re-watched the video again. The irony of him saying that there is many pro casters that are bad while he is a bad pro player is fantastic.
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EPT
