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On May 02 2012 20:35 Morfildur wrote:Show nested quote +On May 02 2012 19:49 kinglemon wrote:
it's stupid to think that casuals will not be attracted by good in depth analysis (while maintaning a fun and charming cast)
if a casual see's the depth of the game, he can get amazed by what's possible and this shows him that it's not just random like he thinks it is in silver league.
no one likes to invest much time in something that seems random.
I mostly agree. In-depth analysis is great even for casuals... unless it only gets presented by someone as energetic and charismatic as for example IdrA (no offense to him. he's probably one of the best analysts out there but, well, i still can't listen to him for long).
true.
he casts like a rock.
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On May 03 2012 01:02 kinglemon wrote:Show nested quote +On May 02 2012 20:35 Morfildur wrote:On May 02 2012 19:49 kinglemon wrote:
it's stupid to think that casuals will not be attracted by good in depth analysis (while maintaning a fun and charming cast)
if a casual see's the depth of the game, he can get amazed by what's possible and this shows him that it's not just random like he thinks it is in silver league.
no one likes to invest much time in something that seems random.
I mostly agree. In-depth analysis is great even for casuals... unless it only gets presented by someone as energetic and charismatic as for example IdrA (no offense to him. he's probably one of the best analysts out there but, well, i still can't listen to him for long). true. he casts like a rock.
I'm certainly not an Idra fan, but whenever he cast I'm absolutly loving it. One of the best playercasters arround.
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After watching Cloud's Vlog and listening to ItG, I myself believe that the competition among casters needs to be more intense to improve the overall casting and provide commentating that lives up to high standards.
To me it seems, and some people already talked about it in here, that once you have gained a certain reputation as a caster - be it through luck or hard work - you can build on this reputation for a long time without putting any more effort into it.
People are right when they point out that HD for instance has done a lot to attract viewers and has thus helped the cause of SC2 and esports.
But we are currently at a point where the community is established and we do not learn the game anymore. but want to understand its depth as well as possible while being entertained. We are not "noobs" anymore and SC2 has 1,5 years of exploration and evolution on its back. And this implies that the standards for casting have increased. So it is great if you have done a lot during beta and the early stages of SC2, but this merit should not guarantee you a job as a caster at big tournaments if you are plainly not good enough for it compared to other casters which have shown up on the scene.
There are probably a couple of examples where this is the case. I feel a bit bad saying this, because I think he is a very likeable person, but Tasteless is to me an example where a caster profits from his past achievements and has reached a status where nobody dares to question his place as a commentator because he is such a big community figure.
He is not a bad caster and very experienced, but to be honest, if Tasteless had started casting SC2 when it came out without really being known, I highly doubt he would be in that seat next to Artosis. This scene has produced so many great casters, which are either good play-by-play or coulor commentators, that could easily replace Tasteless and probably even improve the overall experience.
The best showcase of this was Artosis' cast with Wolf which was outstanding. It was entertaining, exciting and educative at the same time. A casting duo which truely deserves to commentate on the most prestegious SC2 tournament in the world.
The question is: Does the community cling to its viewing habits and wants to stick with Tastosis? Furthermore, would GOM dare to replace Tasteless by someone else?
(I don't want claim I speak for everyone, but this is how I see it)
Now look at players. Competition is in the nature of the game. You won a championship? Gratz. Go back to practicing, because if you don't you are going to be competed away. That's it.
For casters it seems, once you made it, you only need to do your job decently to solidify your position. And this is not how it is supposed to work. Casters should also be entitled to work to sustain their position and to me it seems some of them are not trying to improve their casting at all, yet trying to keep up with the metagame.
However there are great examples of how amazing casting can be and I believe that if casters provide top-notch casting they should be rewarded for it. But just like players, they should get nothing for free.
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On May 02 2012 03:31 Ricemagical wrote:Show nested quote +On May 02 2012 03:24 CarelessPride wrote:
totally agree 100%. idk why the fuck is everyone thinking cloud is jealous of the casters. I think hes bothered by the fact that players work so hard to get to where they are and get payed so little. Yet most casters who are fortunate enough to be given a large salary and fame don't even give enough fuck a to even learn about the game. i think theres a difference between being jealous and frustration due to being under appreciated. What makes you think the current casters haven't sacrificed anything? The majority of them have invested a huge portion of their time into the game. Tasteless for example dropped out of college with only one semester left (to graduate) in order to cast for gom even if it was for the previous generation of the game.
Day9 also has sacrificed a lot for the community such as his pro gaming career. After he graduated with his degree he could have went right back to practicing and going pro in SC2 but he instead decided to continue with dailies. A lot of people have asked him why he doesnt go pro again. He answered this on stream once saying he'd have to quit doing everything like dailies and casting just to go back to practicing 16 hours a day like he did when he was a BW pro. He also said he'd like to go back if he could. But instead he's putting the community and esports over himself.
And Cloud should just be happy someone from blizzard is actually doing something in the SC2 community like Rob Simpson or is it better that blizzard just doesn't have someone even close to esports that actually goes out and represents the company in esports?
Like I'd honestly like to see Day9 quit doing dailies for like 3 months to go practicing for the 16 hours he used to just to completely destroy this kid. Cause I bet this is just some QQ to get attention.
And the time he spent recording this he could be practicing to get better.
PS I hope he doesn't chicken out against TLO and I hope TLO smashes him if they have a show match
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I agree with some of the things he said that some casters severely lacking in knowledge but still have more recognition and money when compared to majority of players.
But their knowledge are not the only thing they are bringing to the table , casters job is not just to analyze the game they have to make it interesting or even entertaining and most important of all is that they have to make it accessible to new players/spectators.
I don’t like Husky and totalbiscuit casting now as both of them seems to be behind in the meta-gaming and lacking in general knowledge ( I am high master random player) , nevertheless I understand their appeal as a caster to new players.(I was a fan of Husky and HD when I was new to the game)
And guess what? Most spectators are diamond or below , the last thing we want is to alienate the majority of the audience.
You can call SC2 whatever you want , competitive gaming, E-sport . But at the end of the day what it is to the sponsors are a form of entertainment.
These casters get audience and that’s the bottom line, it doesn’t matter how they get them (there are reality shows that starred people with worst or no qualification at all)
As for your comment on day9 and TLO , I think its uncalled for . Day9 is more then qualified to be named as one of the best casters from his viewership and fans that he brings to E-sport.
But he still works harder then most and have an impressive knowledge of the game (being GM in all 3 races).
I do felt that some of his daises are lackluster as of late but that's just my preference not a fact.
TLO may not garner as much success as of late but he still someone that people look up for, a prime example for people's branding.
You want more fans and recognition ? Interact with them , It really does goes a long way to say hi to your fans , adopt a persona if you want (do we really believe that Idra as a player and Greg is one and the same?).
for god sake don’t just sit in front of your web cam and whine
People may brand this guy as being honest, in my opinion he is just a negative passive aggressive person that may suffers Asperger syndrome
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"Cloud disagree"
At least viewers of HomestoryCup saw that Cloud like to disagree with other casters.
But I think he was really boring and not the better placed to say that.
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i pretty much sign clouds sight of good casters.
but hey at least there are guys that cast so, i just turn off the guys i dont like.
and i often enjoy it so ahrd when players like idra or darkforce are casting.
that gives me so much more in this game watcvhing and learning their sights so much better.
but hey,
dont hete the casters, all of them want to get better, they just need to learn the game
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ITT: I learn that ¨tweeting¨ and ¨facebooking¨ is a hard job.
Come on guys! If you are going to mention the hard work casters do at least mention all the video editing, long hours at tournaments and (hopefully they do this) research.
Also one thing that people need to keep in mind is that players are the ones giving the content, casters are only a nice addition.As popular as Day9 is if suddenly all top players decided to not play people will probably don´t want to watch(well not as many people anyways) randoms playing randoms. Even if Day9 or whoever the most popular caster is casting it.
I do understand why so many pros feel that way, they are actually the ones who provide the content. Which is why someone like TB is so good, he tries to give back and support pro players.
That being said its Ok for top casters to make more money than average players, the worrying thing is when average players make more than average players. In a sport the Players and teams should be the highlight of the show.
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putting money aside i think most of us here would agree the room to improve in terms of enjoyment from watching is not from progamers, tour organisers or production (cameras, stage etc), when it comes to discussing those things we mostly see the casters as a failing link
the fact that we have so many people saying "i dont like x caster" or says they mute the stream, meanwhile we see players getting stronger and stronger (and more popular overall) and production values of tournaments has gone up tremendously lately aswell as prize distrubution rules format etc. everything has constantly been moving forward this last year improving while casters i feel at least are the ones who are slipping behind.
we started out with day9, artosis, tasteless and total biscuit. and after all this time we didnt really get many new casters who became like really, really good. only apollo, mrbitter and rotterdam comes to mind.
and in terms of knowledge about the game most of them kinda sit around same skill level and understanding of the game like 1 year ago, like obviously they wont get more funny and likable, so its pretty much just keeping the ball rolling and knowledge of the game they can improve.
artosis constantly keeps up with the current flow of the game and latest trends and the new maps etc while in general most casters just seem to be talking about the same general stuff they always do
now dont get offended anyone because i only speak about our casters in general is a slacking part in general in sc2, i dont just mean our current casters and about them i also mean about new rising unknown casters in general. when i look at the entire role as a whole and compare it to every other part about watching or following a tournament, thats what is still disappointing me the most
but we do have casters who really want to improve and are interested at constantly gathering more information about the game, apollo comes to mind for example. but in general i cant actually picture it in my head that the casters does any work at all when it comes to improving with the exception of actually casting and learning the game while casting
to put it in a different perspective. if you look at all the tournaments we have today, theres no tournament that we can really say "well this is just actually THE best tournament" when it comes to production and all this jazz same thing goes for the players. as they are all competing closely with each other and upping their game we see alot of constant movement and improving.
but when as far casters know artosis is widely known to be by far the most knowledgeable caster out there, and guys thats not because he is just some super talented caster. its because he on a daily basis follows as many tournaments out there as he can and is constantly learning the game on his free time. so all the casters out there who feel struck when they hear that they lack game knowledge, just whenever u have time just go watch or play sc2 from an improving perspective instead of just watching or playing out of enjoyment and being silly
no new casters are appearing these days, and the ones that are unknown or "up and coming" or still learning, well most of them are terribly disappointing and you can already say they wont make it. thats just how i feel
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Anyone has a free choice what he is doing. Earn money for "playing" a game is still awesome. Imagine this 15 years ago...
I work 8-10h a day, like mostly everyone here i guess. I still get payed bad because iam in my trail time, (takes 3 years). And after this iam still in the same office, on the same country. Cant travel arround, playing my favourite game meet people all over the world and have awesome expiriences.
Actually i could cry if a progamer is whining about money. If i would play 8 h a day i guess i would play on a same Level. Like alot of people would do with a lil bit talent. Of course its hard work, but crying about caster getting more money about pro gamers is a joke.
in reallife i know alot people doing less than me earning 3- 5 times the money i do. (even if i would finished my trail time)
i would rather play some hours on a event, even if i loose and take the expirience and the good time, than casting 5-8h a event all weekend long.
Gamer and Casters are very important, and get the facts straight, life is not fair. Stop crying work harder. (remember rocky in his last movie lol)
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overall, I more or less agree with Cloud.
First, think of what we should expect from casters.
They tell us everything that is going on, because we can't look around the map. This is mainly covered by the observing, but the casters help draw attention to important details. Having a dedicated observer helps tremendously.
They should analyse the game and provide insight into what is happening, what the players are thinking, and foreshadow what will happen.
They don't have to be correct 100% of the time, but they should never be outright wrong. I think this is what stands out most between casters with good game insight and those with bad. Bad casters will confidently talk about what they think is happening in the game and they are just absolutely wrong. Good casters will be right most of the time, and when they're a little bit off the mark, they can offer explanations for why.
When the player makes a surprising move (wins a battle he should have lost, or loses a battle he should have won, or makes an incredible tactical maneouvre) that would have been impossible to predict, it defies the caster's expectation. Not because the caster was wrong, but because the players are ballers, and this is the time for the caster to drum up excitement and enthusiasm.
This is the other part of the caster's job - make the game exciting.
With bad casters, they are wrong on so many occasions that every engagement is a surprise and a flurry of false excitement. This takes attention away from the moves that are actually exciting and important.
When you watch pro gamers casting, they hit every nail on the head, consistently. When you look at how wrong and confused some casters are and then watch a decent pro player cast a game, it's almost how insulting how big the difference in understanding is. But many of them lack the charisma or personality or energy to give a really good cast. When a surprise happens, the pros say something like "oh. that was a really cute move, I didn't expect that", but the top casters would be screaming.
You know what I think?
Pro players may practice 10-12 hours a day to achieve the level of game insight they have.
Casters shouldn't need to be pro players. But casters should work with the pros regularly. Take lessons or buy coaching from them. Up your game play. If you're not capable of getting to master's league, do you really think everyone wants to hear you guessing about what you think could happen?
Or if you don't think that will help, instead of having them coach you on playing, have them coach you on casting. Send a bundle of replays to a pro and cast the games together without an audience. Listen to what the pro says, how the pro thinks, and learn.
djWheat is an awesome dude, and a fun caster, and he's always the first to admit that he knows nothing about the game compared to the players. He often talks about how much he learned by casting the EG master's cup alongside the EG players. Keep doing it. All caster's should be doing it, in order to learn.
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I honestly agree with the statement that casters get so much money for such little effort. I can't wait to watch the rest of this
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wellcome to the real world. Casters' situation may be a bit better than the one of the pros but if you look at it like its just a job well its not that good really. Its not the casters that are previlaged its the pros whos situation really sucks. The answer is esports haven't developed well enough to guarantee pros the ammount of fame and money they deserve. The situation with casters has very little to do with it.
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There are many mis-representations of Cloud's arguments in this thread. He is not arguing for some strict meritocracy where hours of work put in directly equals pay. His argument is that there are pro-gamers who are legitimately good at their job who are ignored whereas many casters who are slightly to extremely bad at theirs get paid more and get more attention. He is not arguing Artosis should get paid less than Empire.Happy because he puts in less sc2 hours in total. He's just asserting that casters who are straight up horrible and lazy should get paid less than happy
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There is no question that Apollo is better than Khaldor. Better player (in fact, better as random than Khaldor playing Z), WAY better observer, stronger command of English language, overall more knowledgeable, much better at explaining things that lower level players may have trouble understanding.
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There are many mis-representations of Cloud's arguments in this thread. He is not arguing for some strict meritocracy where hours of work put in directly equals pay. His argument is that there are pro-gamers who are legitimately good at their job who are ignored whereas many casters who are slightly to extremely bad at theirs get paid more and get more attention.
That happens all over the world
Dennis MacAlistair Ritchie was amazing, yet Im sure most ppl have to Google who he was and what he did.
Paris Hilton is awful, yet Im sure most ppl know her.
Awful person gets more attention, more publicity and the other guy is relatively unknown.
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I think this all is just a symptom of the fact there is not enough variety in the caster lineups of the major tournaments.
Whatever i watch as so called major events, its the same 5-10 guys all along. And on some tournaments it feels (as a viewer) like they spend more time at the afterwork party than actually casting. This ofcourse again a symptom that having a well known caster lineup will definitely draw more viewership and hence more profits.
How to improve that i dont know really,. but it is a really good timing in 2012 since there is so much more events that need coverage.
But in the end it is a task of us the community to embrace new casters and not turn them away by stupid comments and witchhunts. Make them welcome, improve and give the old club a run for their money.
Recent acquisitions of Frodan and Kaelaris are the right way to go, now let me hope that the Zedds, the Lyrlians, the Vasas are being recognized and some tournaments offer them more opportunities.
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Watching ClouD's video, I couldn't help but repeat the names JP/Rob in my head over and over.
Yes, they're terrible. Anyone who says otherwise is just being nice.
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Most of the players have little to no personality. So the majority of the ones I care about are the ones with results. Which are a very small number. Whereas the casters make things entertaining. Players aren't important. They're a commodity at this point, because esports is so small and the salaries so low. Games also come and go, whereas casters can switch games pretty easily.
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EPT
