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ClouD is wrong about pretty much every point he´s trying to make.
1:
The logic he applies to comparing Casting with Progaming is flawed. His argument is that because players have to work 10h-12h a day, while casters do not, players should make more money than casters. The world doesn't work like that, try looking at 'normal' jobs and you'll see the same thing happening there. Normal employees working hard, managers making a lot of money. ClouD is comparing apples with oranges.
2:
Another problem with his reasoning is the fact that he states that being a Progamer is a passion or a dream for players. A passion that is not shared by casters, and there for they should make less money. Now, i can agree on the lack of passion in regards to certain casters, but the lack of passion is completely unrelated to financial compensation. If my passion is to sell sand in the desert, does that give me the right to financial compensation? No, again, that's not how the world works.
3:
Furthermore, he underestimates the qualities a caster must have to be successful. He makes it look like every progamer with decent English pronunciation can become a great and successful caster. Being good at casting requires a very different skill set than progaming. Obviously it helps to have expert knowledge on the game, but that's absolutely no guarantee you will be a good caster.
Also, there is a huge leap between being a good caster and being a successful caster. I can be a great caster, upload my stuff to Youtube and 12 people will watch it. You must not forget it takes a lot of time and effort to build up the viewer count.
4:
He claims casters can't lose, while players can. This logic is flawed because it is aimed at pro-casters who have already won. They won by providing content that people liked to watch and by building a fan-base. Those casters COULD have failed, and i'll tell you that for every successful caster there are probably dozens who failed, you just never heared of them (because they failed and didn't attract an audience). It's easy for ClouD to make this comparision because the concept of failure for a player is so much more clear than it is for casters, that doesn't mean casters can't fail!
Implying casters can't lose also implies there is no competition. I think ClouD couldn't be more wrong on this one. There is much more room in the community for good SC2 players than there is for good SC2 casters. I think we would all like to see hundreds of professional SC2 gamers, do we want to see hundreds of professional SC2 casters? No, that's completely unnecessary.
You also have to consider the fact that there is a huge difference in income between casters. According to PainUser (inside the game, episode 40) he could make more money by flipping burgers at burgerking. That's the result of competition right there. Think of a tournament organization that has to pick between PainUser or Day9 as caster, both charge the same amount. Who will they pick? Obviously it's going to be Day9, since his fan-base is much bigger. There for, PainUser has to charge less for casting or else he wouldn't have a job at all.
Disclaimer: I picked PainUser and Day9 purely as an example to show the difference between a top-tier caster and a 'lower' tier caster. I'm not saying PainUser is bad at casting, nor do i know how much Day9 makes. It's just to illustrate the concept of competition between casters.
5:
ClouD is somewhat annoyed by casters who are, from the pro-gamer perspective, 'bad'. This might be a little harsh for pro-gamers to hear, but their opinion on the quality of casters is not important. Why? Because pro-gamers are not the audience the caster is trying to reach. The average viewer doesn't require a caster that has perfect understanding of the game, just SOME understanding. Obviously more expert knowledge is better, but once it passes a certain level it doesn't matter anymore.
According to ClouD, Apollo's understanding of the game 'could be better'. Being an average viewer myself, I can assure you Apollo's understanding of the game is more than enough for me to be impressed.
Anyway, that's how I see it 
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i can t say how much i agree with cloud
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We all know that the number of hours of work per day is the measure of success in this world.. oh wait...
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Let's not forget that Destiny got banned for speakning his mind, that's also redicilous. Can't understand why the SC2 community is putting up with this garbage from the mods and bandwagons.
User was warned for this post
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On May 02 2012 19:26 Humbalumba wrote:Show nested quote +On May 02 2012 19:24 WhosTheSmuRf wrote:On May 02 2012 19:21 MadDog` wrote:
Casters needs to entertain their viewers.. I mean.. It's not like day9 is casting to ClouD, day9 is casting to fans, and I think he has everything needed to do it almost perfectly. 90% of viewers are just casual players, they don't care about the deepest insights of the freakin game, they care about fun, hype, entertainment. I think the most entertainment casts for most people where those at the homestory cup where the pro players were casting games. That can't be a coincidence Yeah its been really entertaining when ENTERTAINING and fun pros like MC, Naama or drunken Bling were casting, not when ClouD with the charisma of an brick was casting :D
Are you kidding!? Did you even watch HC? Cloud, Hasu, Socke and probably few more which I forget were all awesome casters(and Hasu and Socke in the least seem like awesome but rather... passive guys). They were just so spot on, and took the cast to a different level. But seeing as you mention MC, Naama and drunk Bling, I suppose you focus extremely much on just being entertained rather than knowing what the players are actually doing/thinking(though both MC and Naama can cast very well, they just usually joked around).
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Netherlands4511 Posts
I think that the problem isn't that casters make too much, it's just that 90% of the players make very shit money. It's compareable to minimum wage in most countries or lower.
If the two were more in balance with each other then perhaps some progamers wouldn't feel this way.
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On May 02 2012 20:53 JamesBourne wrote:
little dogs bark louder than the big ones
first thing to point out is that if cloud was any good at strategical thinking, he would understand why casters are so popular right now and that the things are about to change in near future;
but he isn't- and no wonder why he acts as our european desrow, acting as a pro and still being amazingly awful player
secondly, his only way to drag attention to himself is to complain- same thing occured when he posted that topic about serious delays in paying out winnings- he basically should be the least interested person as the one who barerly won anything and still bitched here and there the most (not questioning that it was the right decision to bring this topic to the public)
no off
peaceyo
Cloud is GM with a 70%+ win rate, I do not think there is anyone who could exactly call him an awful player, unless you are some next level pro no one knows of?
Still though the clip with Cloud was quite horrible. Hes probably right the casters could learn more about the sc2, but when we watch even the highest level of competition in sc2, the gsl, we see a lot of predetermined timing attacks, not really needing super in depth knowledge of the game.
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The problem with Cloud or any player speaking their mind on these subjects is that many casters have generated fanbases and levels of worship that players simply can't compete with. They don't read how dedicated he is to the game they supposedly love, all they see are attacks on casters that they love even more; They will by default defer to what a guy like Day9 says, even if it's completely backwards and wrong. It's almost a losing scenario to even bring it up when you realize these people don't care about the game or its players, they care about the sweaty guy yelling into his microphone
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Well I would have to agree with _most_ of what he said.
For example the thing about day9. I think Sean has a different target group, at least in the daily.
And in terms of tournaments and casting in general, the best commentating happens, when there's a good analyst (e.g. artosis and imo even better: grubby [the way grubby analyses stuations and explains them is just so very amazing!!]) and a good commentator (e.g. tasteless, as well as day9). That's why we need a skilled "talker" with a nice character paried up with an analyst who has better than only good insight.
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It's an extremely strange and sad situation. I think a big part of the problem is most people don't really understand the game so the player's skill and feats aren't as impressive. However a caster can be instantly likable even if they don't have a deep level of game knowledge, which 99 percent don't.
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It would be cool if organizes pre-screened a handful of casters or rotate them to try them out instead of just hiring them, it doesn't seem like there's a whole lot of competition possible. It's pretty embarrassing when the caster is wrong or consistently misses things. Casters really should enhance viewing experience whether it be through having great personality and/or analysis, but they need to bring something to the table, some bring neither; I feel like ClouD is just asking for casters that know what they're talking about. Also, I agree with his top casters - Grubby, Artosis, Apollo, great casters.
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On May 02 2012 21:14 Liquid`Ret wrote:
I think that the problem isn't that casters make too much, it's just that 90% of the players make very shit money. It's compareable to minimum wage in most countries or lower.
If the two were more in balance with each other then perhaps some progamers wouldn't feel this way.
On the other hand one could argue that 90% of the casters dont make money at all.
There are a few players out there who really understand how to sell themselves and how to provide kind of content.
These players (lets call them CatZ and Destiny) are not even medicore, nonetheless they get more viewers and more ad revenue than way better players.
I think that many players out there still dont understand that the crowd wants to be entertained. Just a vocal minority wants to be educated. Which is obviously sad but its a fact.
So BronzieJoe who quitted playing himself in season 3 still watches starcraft2, but he most probably isnt interested in Statisctics and numbers.
You have to see that from the non professional players side. Hell most people could not even tell the difference between your games and a random high master, just because the differences are so subtile that the average joe doesnt even recognice them. So all comes down to entertainment and viewer numbers represent that quite good.
If I have the choice between your stream and catZ stream I will pick catZ anytime. Not because he is a better player (which he is obviously not.... by far) but because he entertains me better and hell I could not tell where the difference is between his and your play, because its so far above me.
Same is true for casters. For most ppl you just have to provide entertainment (and educational content as bonus for ppl who are interested), thats it.
Its kind of sad, but thats how the rest of the world also works.
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On May 02 2012 20:53 JamesBourne wrote:
little dogs bark louder than the big ones
first thing to point out is that if cloud was any good at strategical thinking, he would understand why casters are so popular right now and that the things are about to change in near future;
but he isn't- and no wonder why he acts as our european desrow, acting as a pro and still being amazingly awful player
secondly, his only way to drag attention to himself is to complain- same thing occured when he posted that topic about serious delays in paying out winnings- he basically should be the least interested person as the one who barerly won anything and still bitched here and there the most (not questioning that it was the right decision to bring this topic to the public)
no off
peaceyo
wow..is there any way of being more ignorant than this? its disgusting and what has desrow to do with this?
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On May 02 2012 21:14 Liquid`Ret wrote:
I think that the problem isn't that casters make too much, it's just that 90% of the players make very shit money. It's compareable to minimum wage in most countries or lower.
If the two were more in balance with each other then perhaps some progamers wouldn't feel this way.
I think that's a good point. It's easy to see how some players could begin to dislike the level of commitment and game knowledge that casters need to have when they compare it to their own, and yet there's still guaranteed money in casting. Most people (casters, pro-gamers, and neither) will agree that casting is much simpler and easier than being a pro-gamer (especially those who have done both jobs, like orb and Artosis), and there are less risks involved. You know you're getting a paycheck at the end of the day, and you know how much you're making. There's far less pressure in that respect.
But at the same time, we still need casters, and there's nothing inherently wrong with becoming a caster... unless you're not doing your job right, which means to continuously look to refine your casting abilities and game knowledge. If you become lazy, you'll get replaced by someone who's a better analyst or more passionate about the game. Many people are still eager to cast games, and they'll jump at the opportunity to take your spot on whatever professional game your hosting.
I would like to hear some casters' input on this topic
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The problem is that as progamer you dedicate all your time to game and in the end you are casted by someone who don't know what is going on, telling some random things and still get paid more than you. They don't show respect to game by learning about it, promote themselves without promoting players and teams.
So to casters: Learn what is going on in the game, mention players (FB, twitter,..) , teams, main sponsors
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Cloud is quite a hipocrate, whatever shitty salary he makes, he doesn't deserve it as much as 20+ nameless korean code B players, who probably train twice as much as him, and are much better than him. Star casters at least bring viewers, which is of a definite value to the leagues.
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I think that you make a lot of good points and I agree with most of your opinions, but if you care I'd suggest you to limit yourself sometimes.
Use your common sense: if you keep insisting you'll look like the guy who always complains.
Sometimes preconcepts can overcome what someone says, even if your points are valid like in this case.
Please don't fall for it.
I bet you have a lot of interesting knowledge about the behind of the scenes of the community, can you speak about something positive in the next vlogs, from time to time?
Personally I'd be interested in some stories about BW and how you are planning to overcome your difficulties in TvP.
And some insides about yout TvGoody: most of the people are more interested to the 'funny' side of this (currently) onesided competition, but I'm more curious about how can a seasoned player crack under specific circumstances and if you have found a way to overcome it.
I think that the problem isn't that casters make too much, it's just that 90% of the players make very shit money. It's compareable to minimum wage in most countries or lower.
If the two were more in balance with each other then perhaps some progamers wouldn't feel this way.
Ret is right.
At the end of the day it's the players who make the scene work and grow, not the casters.
The casters can make things look better and provide other benefits, but if the scene doesn't protect the players it won't go far away... despite some notable exceptions a player requires some time to refine his skills, but if he doesn't have the money to support his career choice it will last one or two years at best.
@Elp: personally I think that you are wrong because whenever I hear a proplayer like Grubby casting I feel that most of the full time casters should start do more research and a bit less funny atticts because he makes the game look more professional, interesting and serious despite being funny at the same time.
I can't see why it shouldn't be this way.
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On May 02 2012 20:58 Elp wrote:ClouD is wrong about pretty much every point he´s trying to make. 1: The logic he applies to comparing Casting with Progaming is flawed. His argument is that because players have to work 10h-12h a day, while casters do not, players should make more money than casters. The world doesn't work like that, try looking at 'normal' jobs and you'll see the same thing happening there. Normal employees working hard, managers making a lot of money. ClouD is comparing apples with oranges. 2: Another problem with his reasoning is the fact that he states that being a Progamer is a passion or a dream for players. A passion that is not shared by casters, and there for they should make less money. Now, i can agree on the lack of passion in regards to certain casters, but the lack of passion is completely unrelated to financial compensation. If my passion is to sell sand in the desert, does that give me the right to financial compensation? No, again, that's not how the world works. 3: Furthermore, he underestimates the qualities a caster must have to be successful. He makes it look like every progamer with decent English pronunciation can become a great and successful caster. Being good at casting requires a very different skill set than progaming. Obviously it helps to have expert knowledge on the game, but that's absolutely no guarantee you will be a good caster. Also, there is a huge leap between being a good caster and being a successful caster. I can be a great caster, upload my stuff to Youtube and 12 people will watch it. You must not forget it takes a lot of time and effort to build up the viewer count. 4: He claims casters can't lose, while players can. This logic is flawed because it is aimed at pro-casters who have already won. They won by providing content that people liked to watch and by building a fan-base. Those casters COULD have failed, and i'll tell you that for every successful caster there are probably dozens who failed, you just never heared of them (because they failed and didn't attract an audience). It's easy for ClouD to make this comparision because the concept of failure for a player is so much more clear than it is for casters, that doesn't mean casters can't fail! Implying casters can't lose also implies there is no competition. I think ClouD couldn't be more wrong on this one. There is much more room in the community for good SC2 players than there is for good SC2 casters. I think we would all like to see hundreds of professional SC2 gamers, do we want to see hundreds of professional SC2 casters? No, that's completely unnecessary. You also have to consider the fact that there is a huge difference in income between casters. According to PainUser (inside the game, episode 40) he could make more money by flipping burgers at burgerking. That's the result of competition right there. Think of a tournament organization that has to pick between PainUser or Day9 as caster, both charge the same amount. Who will they pick? Obviously it's going to be Day9, since his fan-base is much bigger. There for, PainUser has to charge less for casting or else he wouldn't have a job at all. Disclaimer: I picked PainUser and Day9 purely as an example to show the difference between a top-tier caster and a 'lower' tier caster. I'm not saying PainUser is bad at casting, nor do i know how much Day9 makes. It's just to illustrate the concept of competition between casters. 5: ClouD is somewhat annoyed by casters who are, from the pro-gamer perspective, 'bad'. This might be a little harsh for pro-gamers to hear, but their opinion on the quality of casters is not important. Why? Because pro-gamers are not the audience the caster is trying to reach. The average viewer doesn't require a caster that has perfect understanding of the game, just SOME understanding. Obviously more expert knowledge is better, but once it passes a certain level it doesn't matter anymore. According to ClouD, Apollo's understanding of the game 'could be better'. Being an average viewer myself, I can assure you Apollo's understanding of the game is more than enough for me to be impressed. Anyway, that's how I see it
This post is right on, IMO. One aspect that I want to latch onto quickly is that people are comparing successful casters (casters who already 'won' to use the words of the post) to all progamers. To flip this the other way around, it would be like comparing the top 8 at the GSL to casters that have finally gotten 300 subscribers on their youtube channel and complaining that the players are making too much money. This doesn't make sense. If you begin to consider all of the casters who have struggled to get any attention at all, it may seem a little more balanced.
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EPT
