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paschl
Germany666 Posts
Lets just test it, set up 2 tourneys with similar players and see who gets more viewers. One casted by tastosis, one by some random high masters guy. Oh wait we dont have to test it, its been tested like every day for the last year. It might not be fair but there is a reason the casters make more money. | ||
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AxionSteel
United States7754 Posts
On May 02 2012 17:51 Jarree wrote: Haha good one! But on topic, few mlgs ago tasteless was casting with Rob Simpson and Tasteless was doing the observing (Adebisi took over the next day as a dedicated observer, wonder why?). I have to say that was one of the worst pro-level casting+observing i have ever seen. Neither of them had any idea what was going on in the game, hatcheries got sniped while tasteless was playing with the camera zooming some random marine and telling some random jokes "look this marine is waiving his hands". It was a total farce. But guess what? In the livethread people where laughing like crazy and called the casting awesome. It was absolutely horrible casting, but done by a fan favorite so it was awesome. If someone like HD had done that, people would have ripped him a new asshole (like painuser said). Yes Cloud i agree, that is bad casting (another example is day9 casting live and 20% of his casting consisting of yelling "OH NO"). But if that is what the people want and they bring viewers, so be it. Pay the casters their money  Yeh it's pretty funny people defending tasteless saying he knows a lot he's just happy letting Artosis call the shots etc and to watch his brood war casts to see what he can do....news flash, that was quite some time ago. He makes soooooo many wrong calls its incredible and half the game is just rambling on about his favorite colour or how hydras are really slow off creep. I highly, highly doubt he puts much research into the players he is casting. | ||
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aiuradun
Denmark115 Posts
I do agree that the casters are not tip top yet, but they really don't need to be pro'es at the game at all neither do they need to know every little detail that a progamer knows becouse that would just be weired having cvasters that know more about the game than the actual player so expecting caster to know more than you i think cloud is just wanting more than he can expect. But again i agree that casters could be better but this is stil lrather new none of our casters have journalistic / tv backgrounds and havent had media training which makes a huge diffrence. | ||
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S2Lunar
1051 Posts
On May 02 2012 17:25 aTnClouD wrote: I don't think you ever made any money from casting, I was just amazed at how much positive feedback you got back then even though I can't watch you for more than 10 minutes without thinking you are fake. It's pretty obvious to me you try really hard with a big fake smile all the time and unnecessarily moving your hands in front of the camera. I don't like you but I didn't badmouth you just for the sake of it, I just think you are one of the worst casters I've seen and I was surprised they let you cast EG masters cup as much as I'm surprised painuser casts for IGN. Can you try to make you're points without name dropping AND flaming the casters at the same time? I thought you were a adult, not a fucking child. Not to mention the fact that you bitch and whine when people complain about you.. (homestorycup casting) then you go on long winded rants bashing other prominent community members who matter much more than you do.. Also Ironic is how you are saying casting is so easy, and bashing other casters for their so called poor casting.. when next to no-one liked your casting at homestorycup, infact it was quite abysmal, likely the worst of all players. Not only did you not know when to stop talking, but you're analysis was some of the worst of all the players.. | ||
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TT1
Canada10004 Posts
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budar
175 Posts
For example, day9 doesn't make his money because he's a great caster (and I too agree that he is not, mainly because he hypes up insignificant things trying to artificially make the cast more exciting when it would be exciting enough without that) - he makes his money because he produces a ton of content, is a great guy and a great personality. Basically, he makes the community better by his work and he has a large following. When you get day9 to cast your tournament, you can be sure you're going to get some eyeballs there because he's going to advertise it on his daily, twitter etc. Now take Cloud as a player, for example. How much content does he produce? In all my time following sc2 (and I've seen probably many hundreds of hours of game time), I've probably seen Cloud play 10 times or less. I don't know how much he streams (or if he does), but I haven't noticed it - I'm sure he's not a super popular streamer, which probably means he doesn't use a microphone .Anyway, it all comes down to this. Some of the "bad" casters he mentions are employees of the tournament organizers and AFAIK do a lot more at their jobs than just cast. Honestly, I don't like their casting either, but hiring great casters for a 2-day tournament is probably very expensive so these tournaments use their own (and they must have their own to cast qualifiers etc.). As for the others, there aren't too many of them that are considered "good" by the community - probably fewer than 10. And you will be listening to those casters all weekend long. On the other hand, there are probably 40 "tier1 and tier2" players out there, and nobody is going to not watch a tournament if a few of them aren't there. So in that respect, casters are more important. On that note, Cloud is not one of those players, he's probably like a top100 player. Do you know what's the pay disparity between the tennis top three and the #100? | ||
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WhosTheSmuRf
United States56 Posts
The most annoying cast I've ever listened to was Painuser at IPL, where he was talking with such a weird voice that I just had to mute him, even though I enjoy HD's casting. | ||
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MCDayC
United Kingdom14464 Posts
On May 02 2012 18:06 mTwTT1 wrote: NANIWA VS MVP STARTING SOON, lets take a timeout until its done This man knows whats up... Everyone should be watching! | ||
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Executor1
1353 Posts
On May 01 2012 23:49 Wroshe wrote: I highly disagree with this. Not because I don't value the sacrifices that the players make but because I just don't think what they say is true. The reason casters have become the cornerstone is because they have attracted a huge audience to the e-sport that wouldn't have been there otherwise. SC2 had a lot of people come into the sport that started off with watching HD or Husky on Youtube. Another thing to take into consideration is that these casters immediatly made it into a business by pushing out a lot of videos and building themselves a personality. It resulted into getting them masses of followers (and in turn: money) who wanted them to be involved in e-sport tournaments. I'd guess that they wanted money to be comparable to what they'd make by not going to said tournament and hence the pay differential started to exist. Now honestly it appears to me that the players want it both ways: they want the game to be big but not make the sacrifices that come with that (giving the cornerstone position to the casters). I do agree though that there are a lot of bad casters out there who don't know what they're talking about. Having said that though I only watch major tournaments myself and the only one who does those tournaments and has that problem is HD. Besides that I am personally fine with the casting I get but that's most likely due to what I watch. I would imagine that the lower tier of tournaments have worse casting. I agree, although i understand where cloud is coming from , he doesnt understand ,it seems, that players probably wouldnt even be getting big salaries if it werent for people like Husky and HD (back in the day) and day 9 pushing out huge amounts of content (multiple games a day etc back then) regardless if Husky and HD where not very good commentators from a players perspective they are the ones that made the game accesible to the masses along with day 9 who IMO has a much better understanding of the game then those 2. Although i do agree that his knowledge has certainly fallen off quite a bit recently (and i see him at less events, is he back in school or something?). Not all casters deserve the fame and money they get, but casters are what made this game accesible to the masses not the akward basement dwelling players. Dont get me wrongtheir are some great player personalities in sc2 but you know what i mean, and the great player personalities in this game that also have skills get compensated very well, moreso that 99% of the casters out there id bet. All in all i dont think Cloud appreciates what big personality (but little insight) casters have done for this game, sure a pro sc2 player would probably prefer a highly analytical caster but as a new fan you wont even understand what they are talking about and having casters like total biscuit and HD/Painuser (back in the day, i think HD is terrible these days, because he tries to provide some insight but its usually just completely wrong). Their are still casters out there that players probably hate on but dont realise they are benifiting from, casters that are bringing new fans into the game and making it accesible with colourful play by play and simple or very little analysis. If cloud (and other players with his opinnion) had things his way and low insight high personality casters dissapeared or werent compensated (giving them less reason to pursue the casting path) the scene would slow in growth in a very significant way and i think he fails to recognize exactly what these casters have done for the scene. Edit: All that being said I dont think its okay to see casters who have no idea what they are talking about making big bucks at events they have no business being at. It doesnt happen that often (not in too bad of a way at least) but one that I can think of is HD. I respect HD for all he has done for the scene and i used to be a huge fan but he has absolutely no idea what he is talking about these days (or at least as of 4-5 months ago i avoid him like the plague now). The thing is cloud wasnt just targetting those casters he was targetting smaller casters casting cups etc as well. The thing is, if players like cloud (because he is a good example for this) brought in huge amounts of fans like any of the popular casters do, he would be compensated appropriately regardless of skill (as long as he is getting past the first few rounds and getting some recognition). Just like the big name casters that cloud thinks have terrible insight but in reality draw big crowds afterall this is a business. | ||
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EtDecius
United States52 Posts
Here's some examples from my personal preferences. Like: - Professional dress attire at big events. Shirt and blazer looks sharp. - Commentary duos that practice regularly with each other. - Hearing player histories and stats. - Slower speaking cadence and moderate tones so cast doesn't overshadow action on screen. - Excitement during critical moments, subdued during rest. - Humor Dislike: - Judgements on player's gameplay. Let the results decide if it was good or not. - Predicting player's next moves. Let the player reveal his strategy. - Predicting who's going to win or lose during the match. - Yelling, screaming and squealing into mic. Excitement is great but audio doesn't handle it well. - Unsubstantiated "so-and-so is the best _______ in the world" statements. I agree with other posters that commentators are a big audience draw for the tournament. It's not surprising, as the audience can spend 20 hours with a commentator during a weekend event and only one or two hours with a particular player. On top of that, a lot of the regular content put out for the community comes from casters, which solidifies their presence. I emphatically believe that players and teams need to ramp up how they promote themselves so that players have more draw. No doubt players are very busy practicing, but those getting noticed are either winning or putting themselves in front of the community. Casters have the spotlight by virtue of their role, but players can help build their own story through more than just the match itself. Some examples: - Commentate your tournament matches after the event. Provide insight into your gameplay. You know it best! - Team Managers, give Twitter names to events/casters so they can promote your players. - Vlogs are great! Anecdotally, I prioritizes matches featuring my 2-3 favorite players. Once they're not playing or out of the tournament, then I watch matches based on who's casting. Make me add you to my favorite player list. | ||
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wuhan_clan
United States5609 Posts
On May 02 2012 17:25 aTnClouD wrote: + Show Spoiler + On May 02 2012 14:31 -orb- wrote: I'm sorry you are seemingly emotionless and boring, Cloud. Just because you are that way does not mean everyone else is as well. I get naturally extremely hyped from Starcraft games, and I express my emotions the way I do. It seems like you simply do not like me as a person (despite having never met me), and thus you want to badmouth me out of nowhere because I express my emotions in a way you do not like (instead you just keep your emotionless face and express nothing at all in your own vlog...). You act as if I am somehow making more than I deserve and that I should not be so "big" as a caster because I don't live up to your standards (that you yourself cannot meet). Are you completely ignorant to the position I am in in esports? I make no money off this game other than small amounts of ad revenue. What is even going through your head? I work my ass off constantly for esports and get almost nothing in return. Who are you to say I should get even less? You keep making absolutely ridiculous claims that it doesn't take work to become a caster. This makes you look horribly ignorant. While there are exceptions, almost all casters have had to work a ridiculous amount to achieve what they have. The amount of hours of not just learning the game but learning how to talk, what to talk about, recording commentary, building a fanbase, etc is clearly way more than you seem to think. I think the only people in esports that work harder than casters are the truly dedicated players. Most high-level koreans, and an extremely low select few of foreigners that really care (people like naniwa, huk, etc) actually practice enough and hard enough to beat most casters in terms of amount of effort, but the majority of foreigners do not put in nearly as much effort as your average successful caster. I don't think you ever made any money from casting, I was just amazed at how much positive feedback you got back then even though I can't watch you for more than 10 minutes without thinking you are fake. It's pretty obvious to me you try really hard with a big fake smile all the time and unnecessarily moving your hands in front of the camera. I don't like you but I didn't badmouth you just for the sake of it, I just think you are one of the worst casters I've seen and I was surprised they let you cast EG masters cup as much as I'm surprised painuser casts for IGN. I actually agreed with some of the points Cloud made in his vlog but his response here just comes across as straight whining. So what if you think some people are bad casters? Enough people think they are good enough that they keep landing jobs. Maybe you think its unfair but a lot of things in life are unfair. I will agree that the general level of casting needs to be raised across the board (including many big name high profile casters) but simply whining about it isn't helping your situation as a player. Some casters worked really hard to get to where they are at and maybe some casters worked less hard. Stop focusing on someone else's job and focus more on how you can improve your own game. Btw, if someone is practicing 10-12 hr days and are still not winning anything significant, that person probably is not going to win anything big ever. Some people just reach a certain skill ceiling or they are practicing wrong or inefficiently (entirely different discussion). Just because one puts in a lot of time and works hard doesn't necessarily mean that they will be the ones compensated the most or the ones who get the most recognition. Maybe the world should work like that but it's actually rarely the case. Yes, casters need to improve their craft but they are still an important factor in bringing in viewers (money). As long as they are bringing in the viewers, they are deserving of whatever financial compensation they may get, even if its more than players. Players need to realize that this is a frikkin business and that in addition to being able to play at a high level, they need to be able to market themselves. Esports is only just beginning to grow and casters are playing a pivitol role in that growth. Players and their teams need to figure out how they can also help to grow esports and its not just from simply playing the game. I might think HD is a bad caster, but I can respect that he put a lot of work into introducing the competitive SC2 scene to the casual player. Afterall, thats how I got here. Edit: I had no idea who Cloud was before this thread but now I do (maybe for the wrong reasons ie. not for his playing ability) so I guess he's doing something right. | ||
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illsick
United States1770 Posts
Casters also have to be well spoken and able to talk on the fly; not all players can be good casters because of this factor. They also have to be able to interest the casuals. Believe it or not, a lot of people who watch SC2 don't even play it lol. I saw a thread on reddit where people admit to it. And working hard versus not working hard doesn't always correlate to who makes more money. Comparing the players and the casters make it seem ClouD is just hating. Perhaps a person waiting tables does more work than a lawyer. Some of the casters do a lot of work off camera too, TB does his youtube content and Day9 produces his daily shows (and does prep work for it) and it all contributes to their fame as casters. | ||
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Gackt_
335 Posts
On May 02 2012 17:57 AxionSteel wrote: Yeh it's pretty funny people defending tasteless saying he knows a lot he's just happy letting Artosis call the shots etc and to watch his brood war casts to see what he can do....news flash, that was quite some time ago. He makes soooooo many wrong calls its incredible and half the game is just rambling on about his favorite colour or how hydras are really slow off creep. I highly, highly doubt he puts much research into the players he is casting. couldnt agree more. get tasteless to cast a ZvZ it will be a bomb of knowledge dropping upon you that Zerg can actually move faster upon creep. Roflmao. | ||
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Executor1
1353 Posts
On May 02 2012 18:25 illsick wrote: ClouD has to realize that casters are not all about analyzing the game, it's only part of it Casters also have to be well spoken and able to talk on the fly; not all players can be good casters because of this factor. They also have to be able to interest the casuals. Believe it or not, a lot of people who watch SC2 don't even play it lol. I saw a thread on reddit where people admit to it. And working hard versus not working hard doesn't always correlate to who makes more money. Comparing the players and the casters make it seem ClouD is just hating. Perhaps a person waiting tables does more work than a lawyer. Some of the casters do a lot of work off camera too, TB does his youtube content and Day9 produces his daily shows (and does prep work for it) and it all contributes to their fame as casters. I think very few players could make the crossover to being a caster, knowing the game well is a small part (in my opinnion) of being a good caster. This can be seen in so many examples of popular casters who have just an average level of knowledge about the game. The type of personality it takes to be a good player and the type of personality it takes to be a good caster are completely different and its fairly rare that a player has both of these quality's. | ||
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mike senior
20 Posts
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vanhio
Niue1017 Posts
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Deezl
United States355 Posts
Money does not directly correlate to skill, it correlates to marketing. Casters provide marketing by producing content. Big name players provide marketing through their name. Mid-Skilled players like ClouD? Maybe they just produce drama. | ||
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MadDog`
Croatia15 Posts
He loves the game and he also played the game on the competetive level. He is doing an amazing job for community. Casters needs to entertain their viewers.. I mean.. It's not like day9 is casting to ClouD, day9 is casting to fans, and I think he has everything needed to do it almost perfectly. 90% of viewers are just casual players, they don't care about the deepest insights of the freakin game, they care about fun, hype, entertainment. It's easy for cloud to say that they are terrible, but first you need to sit infront of ~50k viewers and entertain them. I think cloud should try that, and then attack them for "false" fame. Entertain people is possibly the hardest job out there, make them laugh, make them enjoy watching. I really don't get this. | ||
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Newbistic
China2912 Posts
Now, his views are just, kind of outdated. Being popular in SC2 or any scene is part working hard, part working smart, and part luck. Hard work alone isn't enough, you also have to work smart to put yourself into positions where you are visible. | ||
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WhosTheSmuRf
United States56 Posts
On May 02 2012 19:21 MadDog` wrote: Casters needs to entertain their viewers.. I mean.. It's not like day9 is casting to ClouD, day9 is casting to fans, and I think he has everything needed to do it almost perfectly. 90% of viewers are just casual players, they don't care about the deepest insights of the freakin game, they care about fun, hype, entertainment. I think the most entertainment casts for most people where those at the homestory cup where the pro players were casting games. That can't be a coincidence | ||
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